Glittering Caves

Andrew and Patrick discuss the Fellowship of the Ring Chapter 1: A Long-Expected Party.

What is Glittering Caves?

A Catholic Journey Through the Lord of the Rings

Andrew:

Hello and welcome to glittering caves, a Catholic journey through the Lord of the Rings. I'm doctor Andrew Seeley, and I'm joined by Patrick Bodock. I wanted to start by in the last session, I mentioned that, George McDonald had made some comments about Shakespeare, which I thought also were, applicable to Tolkien. So I looked those up, and one of them is it goes like this. When he's talking about Shakespeare, he said, the man to whom nothing in humanity was common or unclean, in whom the most remarkable of his artistic morals is fair play, who fills our hearts with a saintly love for Cheadleian and admiration for of sir John Falstaff, the lost gentleman, mournful even in the height of our laughter, who can make an autologous and a Macbeth both human and an aerial in a puck, neither human.

Andrew:

This is the man who loved best. And we believe that this depth of capacity for loving lay at the root of all of his knowledge of men and women, and all his dramatic preeminence. The heart is more intelligent than the intellect. So, I think that that's very true about Shakespeare, and I think that there's a lot of ways in which is true about Tolkien as well. And I think that this, I don't know.

Andrew:

As I was rereading this first chapter, I was thinking about that that, Tolkien loved hobbits. Now it's really interesting to, I like to talk some of the pattern about, how did the Hobbits come across in this chapter? And does it really seem like Tolkien is a, a lover of Hobbits in this chapter and how it compares with the Hobbit, which, Patrick enjoyed a lot more than the Lord of the rings. So that's something on my mind, which we can go forward with, but we'll start, Patrick, you got, impressions from this chapter or things you wanna bring up?

Patrick:

Yeah. I I think a a couple of things that, kinda jumped out. One is on page 36.

Andrew:

Yeah. And once again, we're using this, one volume edition of the Lord of the Rings, the 50th anniversary one volume edition, if you wanna keep up with the page numbers. So Yeah. 36?

Patrick:

Yeah. 36, toward towards the bottom of the page, the last paragraph, the last full paragraph towards the bottom. So this is after the party, after, after Bilbo did his, you know, disappearing act. And the second to last sentence in that paragraph, 1 by 1, they rolled away, filled with full but very unsatisfied hobbits. And I thought that was a really interesting way of describing kind of the, the whole effect of this party that that the guests leave full but unsatisfied.

Patrick:

And to, like, dive into, like, what what does that mean, and and why why are they full, and and why are they unsatisfied? Mhmm. And it's it's such an interesting party because as, you know, the guests receive gifts, in this birthday party versus, you know, the the birthday person receiving guests' gifts. So, you know, they they're getting gifts. They're getting lavish meal multiple meals.

Patrick:

They have this amazing fireworks display. They, you know, have the fellowship of each other's company. And and yet they're they're still unsatisfied by all. And so it's like like, what what does that say about, you know, where,

Andrew:

you know, where Bilbo, like, Bilbo's spiritual states,

Patrick:

or just his you know, what the heck is going what

Andrew:

the heck happened to Bilbo in this bizarre choice to disappear at at the peak of this Yeah.

Patrick:

You know, event.

Andrew:

So, one thing connected with that is, the party is really set up in an important way to be a joke. Mhmm. To be billed those joke Mhmm. On the guests, particularly the guests in the in the pavilion, these these specially invited guests

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

To make up the 144 total.

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

So the I I really what what do you think about that? Did you and I guess I also it's kind of connected with thinking back on the Hobbit. In the Hobbit, you don't actually spend much time in the Shire. Right? You get to know Bilbo at the beginning, Gandalf.

Andrew:

You see, you learn some things about the Shire from Bilbo in the beginning. Uh-huh. And then you follow Bilbo's growth and development. But you don't spend you don't get to know anybody else in the Shire at the beginning. Mhmm.

Andrew:

And then at the end, he comes back, and you see what's going on with the auction and everything. Mhmm. So that's your your look at the Shire. Mhmm. This, story starts with a full chapter, and then we'll even see some more in the next chapter.

Andrew:

We're getting to really know the Shire from the inside.

Patrick:

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew:

What do you think of that? What do you think of the hobbits? When you look

Patrick:

at it, look closely. Well, they're hilarious. I especially love, in in in the the 144, under the pavilion and, just the descriptions of the chubs and the grubs and brandy books and the proud foots or maybe proud feet depending on who you ask. And, yeah, that was just that was fantastic. Yeah.

Patrick:

So it's just very, very fun to read. Mhmm. Yeah.

Andrew:

I love the thing of, you know, talking about how well, they're all they're very glad of the food. You know, the the young hobbits, it's very hard to feed all the young hobbits. They're grant grateful to have a free meal that would last a few days.

Patrick:

Yeah. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah.

Andrew:

And then, the the paragraph you start with is one of my favorite lines. Gardeners came by arrangement and removed in wheelbarrows those that had inadvertently remained behind. So, it was just that not only did they inadvertently remain behind because they were so, full of food and drink.

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

But that they that people gave parties knew some people would inadvertently remain behind. They arranged ahead of time with the gardeners to come and get them a

Patrick:

new adventure. Yeah. That's an amazing line. Yeah. And and just kinda speaks to, like like, Tolkien is getting at, like, the messiness of being a creature and, like, the the whimsical, you know, nature of of being a creature and having to eat and getting together and just how ridiculous it can be.

Patrick:

Mhmm. Just, you know, spotlighting the humor in all that is is really fun entry into the story.

Andrew:

Yeah. We talked about, we talked about last time how, this part of the story was be written by Bilbo. We're kind of getting the Bilbo's perspective on it all. So it's told in that in that same kind of vein where he's he this is a joke he made, and he's writing about the joke, and he's laughing about it as he's writing.

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Yeah. As he's writing it.

Patrick:

Yeah. So that that's interesting to say that, like, this this was a big joke that he pulled on, like, all of his neighbors, all you know, everybody he's known his whole life. Like and then he leaves, you know, seemingly forever or, you know, who knows how long. Like like, what kind of a a hobbit does that or what kind of a, Yeah. Creature does that, you know, versus just receiving the affection and love and, you know, and and this what what could be, like like, the pinnacle of the of the Hobbit's life is this 111th birthday.

Andrew:

Yeah. So let let's explore that in a in a little bit. But page 31, this is the, second paragraph from that page. Frodo was the only one president who had said nothing. For some time, he had sat silent beside Bilbo's empty chair and ignored all remarks and questions.

Andrew:

He had enjoyed the joke, of course, even though he had been in the know. He had difficulty in keeping from laughter at the indignant surprise of the guests. So Frodo is watching the whole thing, and he's finding it hilarious.

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

While everybody else is getting offended and more and more offended as Bilbo keeps talking.

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Frodo's finding it really hilarious.

Patrick:

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew:

And at the same time,

Patrick:

he felt deeply troubled. He realized suddenly that he loved the old habit dearly.

Andrew:

Mhmm. So

Patrick:

that that maybe getting at, like, he knows that, you know, this dear family member is gonna be gone soon. Mhmm.

Andrew:

So what's the, what what is the relationship you you get between Bilbo and the rest of the Shire from this chapter?

Patrick:

Yeah. Well, I think in in the first page, it says something like, Bilbo did not have many friends. Mhmm. Like, he was famous.

Andrew:

He didn't have any close friends until his younger relatives began to get older.

Patrick:

Yeah. Yeah. So he he's kinda like this, you know I don't know what the analogy could be to, you know, somebody in, like like, Beverly Hills of Los Angeles has this, like, you know, house kinda, like, with with gates all around. Like, nobody gets in and out. Nobody knows kinda what's going on, but everybody knows there's someone famous who's there.

Patrick:

And then one day, like, opens up the kinda like Willy Wonka's factory. And and then, you know, get a glimpse of the famous hobbit or whatever. Uh-huh. And he realized he's this bizarre, individual. Yeah.

Andrew:

I don't I don't think that that's quite, accurate about Bilbo because he did his his, he didn't have fences or anything. And it does say that, you know, people would, you know, there'd be party different parties, and, he's all part of the birthday circle. You know, the mathom, the idea that hobbits give presents away on their own birthdays. Well, Bilbo got a lot of them and he gave away it says he he got the he kept the ones he got and would give new ones. Uh-huh.

Andrew:

You know, and the people he wrote the notes, the various notes on, gifts for people. And they were all they were all personal. So he knew all those people personally. Yeah. So I don't think it's quite like that.

Andrew:

But there is a separation.

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Because Bilbo is queer, at least most people find him queer. And that that, if you remember at the beginning of The Hobbit, the author says something like, well, we're gonna talk about it. Hobbits never had adventures. Well, we're gonna talk about a Hobbit who had Mhmm. An adventure.

Andrew:

Mhmm. And he came back. Well, he came back changed. Now is this a good thing or a bad thing? Well, I'll let you decide that, but Mhmm.

Andrew:

That he came back from his adventures changed meant that he was, in spite of all the great things that happened to him, and in a way, all the great things that happened for him Mhmm. He came back an unrespectable hobbit. He was no he used to be just the most decent and respectable, most of hobbits.

Patrick:

Uh-huh.

Andrew:

And now he comes back, and he's not anymore. It's he's different. And so that that isolates him in the Shire even though there are no gates or anything to isolate him.

Patrick:

So you think it's more of a, an inadvertent? Like, he didn't intentionally isolate himself. The

Andrew:

Right.

Patrick:

It was a a a circumstance that he fell into because he went away and did this thing.

Andrew:

Mhmm.

Patrick:

And and so perhaps the joke that we see here is, like, a, yeah, maybe a glint more of a glimpse into his internal, life that comes from maybe his own longing for I don't know. Yeah. Or he's just more of a product of his own wistfulness or Mhmm. Yeah.

Andrew:

At least he's he's no longer able to live as a decent respectable hobbit. And decent respectable hobbits sometimes get on his nerves.

Patrick:

Yeah. So it's more like

Andrew:

And he and he he sees them in a way that they they amuse him.

Patrick:

Uh-huh.

Andrew:

And they can amuse him and annoy him, because he's different now than he used to be.

Patrick:

So he's

Andrew:

But it's hard for him to be close to them.

Patrick:

Okay. So maybe he he is more of, like, a a stigma about him than he's acclaimed as, you know, one of one of the, like, the great hobbits of the community. More of a more of an outcast than a

Andrew:

Yeah. Coastal. Yeah. Well, so they they were talking let's see what even the first paragraph or 2, so the second paragraph. Bilbo was very rich and very peculiar, and had been wonder of the Shire for 60 years, ever since his remarkable disappear it's an unexpected return.

Andrew:

So that's he's he's rich, peculiar, a wonder, but not respectable. And in fact, they it's things like, the gaffer is a little bit worried that on page 24, my, my lad Sam will know more about that. He's in and out of Bag End, crazy about stories of the old days he is, and he listens to all mister Bilbo's tales. Mister Bilbo's learned him his letters. Mean and no harm mark you, and I hope no harm will come of it.

Andrew:

So it's a little bit of a concern about maybe the tales you're listening to and the fact that Bilbo taught him to read.

Patrick:

Interesting. Yeah.

Andrew:

And at the same time, he

Patrick:

has all this all this treasure. And and and now he he it it seems like he he and and maybe he he did this, and he mentioned that that, like, using that as a way to kinda, like, rebuild his, maybe, reputation within the Shire. And maybe that's part of the motivation for this birthday party is showing this great event for the community. Mhmm. It seems like he he could've done more of that, you know, over the past 6 years.

Patrick:

Or

Andrew:

Well, it does say that, some of them say, well, like the gaffer says, I wish there were people who were queer like him because he's very generous.

Patrick:

Okay. He's

Andrew:

Yeah. And then it said about the gifts, we hear about all the funny gifts, the joke the pointed jokes.

Patrick:

Uh-huh.

Andrew:

Then it says, of course, most of the gifts were given where they were needed. And then it starts to list. They weren't as funny, but they were they were, they were well they were well placed gifts to really, really help people.

Patrick:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So thoughtful. Mhmm.

Patrick:

Yeah. Generous in that way. Yeah.

Andrew:

Did you, so who's who's side are you on on this, Patrick? Do you do you do you feel that did did you laugh at the hobbits, at at his fellow hobbits the way Bilbo and Frodo did? Or were you kind of offended that Bilbo treated them that way?

Patrick:

Yeah. I I guess I guess I was more offended that that Bilbo, treated them that way. And I think that gets it, like, the line that I, mentioned at the beginning that they were unsatisfied, you know, despite all this lavishness. Mhmm. You know, it it like, so bizarre to have, like, the the per the person who's the center of the event just withdraw himself at at the pinnacle of the celebration.

Patrick:

And, you know, it to tie it into our faith, like, you know, think about, like like, the Eucharist, you know, is a gift, but, you know, gift because the lord is giving his very self to his people. And and this, like, party and celebration almost seems like a an anti Eucharist or anti sacrament in a way, and that the the the main person just takes himself away. He doesn't give a true gift of himself. He gives, you know, the the money or, you know, the gifts that can can help people, but he doesn't give himself. He

Andrew:

Mhmm.

Patrick:

It's kinda the the moment of permanently revoking himself from the community and from his people. Yeah. Yeah. So, I can see why they're unsatisfied.

Andrew:

Okay. So I'm gonna go on the other side because I think it's hilarious. Okay. But, Bilbo isn't wanted to to, because he's not respectable, because he has outlandish folk over to the the he hosts dwarves and wizards, and goes off from time to time. He's he's not trusted and they they like talking about him, but they don't like, they they'll say, oh, no.

Andrew:

He's gonna start reading his poetry now. Yeah. Oh, whatever you do, don't go into the poetry. Do you really have to talk about your adventures? Why don't you just say things that we all, we all know, and we can just cheer.

Andrew:

All we wanna do is cheer you. Okay? So just don't say anything that you really care about.

Patrick:

Uh-huh.

Andrew:

What do you think about that?

Patrick:

It it seems like like a fit like a family gather. You know, you have the, like, crazy quirky uncle, you know, does his thing, and, you know, people kinda, like, you know, groan and, you know, kinda talk on the side about it. Uh-huh. Yeah. I I don't I don't know if I if I caught that, you know, he he was so far disrespected and disreputable Mhmm.

Patrick:

That he was just, you know, like, really unwanted. I I think I read it as as more of like, oh, you know, he's here's this guy we've been with for a 111 years, and, you know, let's just putting up with him. We just wanna eat and you know?

Andrew:

Yeah. Okay. Well, that's, I'll I'll be interested to know what other people what what impression other people have of it. Let me see. I'm gonna think if there are other places where I would go to support this, but that are coming out right now.

Patrick:

So Yeah.

Andrew:

We'll just leave it at that. If you go back to the to the prologue, on the character of the hobbits. So what did you think about the hobbits as presented here? Let me see if I can find a good a good place. So maybe on page 7.

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

All hobbits were in any case clannish and reckoned up their relationships with great care. They drew long and elaborate family trees with innumerable branches. In dealing with hobbits, it is important to remember who is related to whom and in what degree. The genealogical trees at the at the end of the Red Book of the Westmark are a small book in themselves, and all but hobbits would find them exceedingly dull. Hobbits delighted in such things, if they were accurate.

Andrew:

They like to have books filled with things that they already knew, set out fair and square with no contradictions. Mhmm. So what do you think of that?

Patrick:

Yeah. I think that that jives a lot with my impression in chapter 1. It's like the habit seem just, like, very simple and surface level in a way that's very endearing and, kinda like egocentric in a way that's endearing. There's there's not a lot of great depth to them, and that's refreshing. There there's not a lot of hidden agendas.

Patrick:

It's it's just they are what they appear to be. Mhmm. And so it's attractive. Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick:

Interesting.

Andrew:

Yeah. They're very they're very uncomplexed in that way. Mhmm. And they're very self satisfied Mhmm. In their simplicity.

Patrick:

Yeah. You think that's better? The line you know, you're talking about, like, the they're exasperated by the poetry. Mhmm. They don't want him to read this poetry.

Patrick:

They don't want this, like, depth of of something they couldn't comprehend that's outside of their, you know, experience of life or, you know, they they could have an element of of mystery or, I don't know, depth. Like like, on page 7, filled with things they already know that are set out fair and square, plain and simple. So on on the surface, like, the presentation in chapter 1 is, like, very charming and endearing, but then if there's it I think it depends on how much of a resistance there is to, like like, this depth or, like, otherness that could be presented to them. Mhmm. Like, that could, I think, could go in a number of different directions if it's not an isolationist.

Patrick:

Sorry? If if it becomes like a isolation Yeah. Isolationist or antagonism towards the other or if it's, just kind of a a charming simplicity that,

Andrew:

that Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll be interested in your impressions from the beginning of the next chapter because we're gonna get more of a look into we're gonna fast forward 17 years to, when Frodo is 51, and then we'll see what the Shire is like again at that point. Okay. Another thing that at least it shows their clannishness, their their there's a narrowness at least with when you see this on page 22, towards the bottom, where he says, they're asking about Frodo.

Andrew:

Who's Frodo? It beats me why any Baggins of Hobbiton should go looking for a wife away there in Buckland where folks are so queer. So Buckland, that's, that's part of the Shire. Uh-huh. These guys live by the river.

Andrew:

They're queer. They're strange. And the later on oh, sorry. Just below that. They the boat the bucklanders fool about with boats on that big river, and that isn't natural.

Andrew:

So it's, they they're queer and unnatural, because they live by the river, and they do things in a different way.

Patrick:

Uh-huh.

Andrew:

So there's there's a even among the hobbits, there's there's the those are those are other people. They're not, like, good decent hobbits and by water folk.

Patrick:

Yeah. So different subcultures within the Shire.

Andrew:

Mhmm. Even though you're just talking about, you know, a 120 mile radius or something like that.

Patrick:

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

Patrick:

Yeah. That's a great point.

Andrew:

So any thoughts about the, Bilbo in the ring and leaving it behind, not leaving it behind?

Patrick:

Well, I I think it struck me on page 35 how, you know, you have that moment where he's putting it on the, the the mantle, and and then his hand it falls, and then he has this momentary flash of anchor, and then he's fine. Mhmm. That that that seemed, like, like, like, weird that or unexpected maybe that that this ring that obviously has this, like, great effect on him and this tremendous attachment to that when when he's separated from it, almost right away, he's fine. Mhmm. Despite the, like, momentary flash figure, and then he's he's good and cheering on his way.

Patrick:

And so I I don't know. Maybe there's a longer lasting effect that you don't that we don't see.

Andrew:

But Well, we will see the longer lasting effect, but Okay. It's it's interesting. I'm thinking as we go forward, trying to think about how to imagine the ring and the way the effect the ring has. I think that it's, it's easy for us to connect it with just addictions, you know, if you're addicted to smoking or to drugs, to alcohol, to sex. We can feel about it that way.

Patrick:

Uh-huh.

Andrew:

And it's it'll be interesting to see how the ring is like and unlike that.

Patrick:

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew:

I'll tell you one thing, a personal story about smoking is, so I was I've been a pipe smoker, and I started very young as a pipe smoker, and I was smoking 10 or 12 pipes a day when I was in college. And, my the girl I was dating eventually being my wife, she was allergic to smoke. So, one of the summers, I went back to, to be in her area, and I just left my pipe stuff behind. Never missed it. Even though if the pipe was there

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

If it's in my room

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

I could not not smoke it. Like, I couldn't that would be so, so hard. But just leaving it behind knowing it's not around, I don't have it.

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

It didn't bother me at all.

Patrick:

Wow. That's beautiful.

Andrew:

So I don't know, how usual or unusual that is, but it's it's it's interesting about addictions. Uh-huh. It's true definitely true there's a physical part, but I think there's a there's a lot about the we get in a habit of of our will just not standing up to it, not being able to stand up to a little bit of pain that starts to arise. Maybe even think about a pain.

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

It can start to rise. And our imagination, how our imagination keeps oh, you can do it's right there. You can just

Patrick:

do it. Yeah.

Andrew:

And when that's active, it's all this pain, but you Yeah. You know, for some of us anyway, you just leave it behind. Uh-huh. Oh, it's not possible anymore. Okay.

Andrew:

I just I don't really miss it much at all.

Patrick:

Yeah. It's like the accessibility of it, plays such a big difference.

Andrew:

So so Bilbo just having made finally the break with it, at least for now, he's able to walk away and say, oh my gosh. I feel so much better now. I'm I it's such a relief.

Patrick:

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great that's a great story. And it I I wasn't sure you know, it says on page 35, like, his hand jerked back. It it's kind of ambiguous what happened there.

Patrick:

You know? Mhmm. If if Gandalf did something that, caused that, it it seems like Bilbo didn't quite let go

Andrew:

on Yeah. I think probably what what I'd imagine it as is he's reaching up to put it on the mantelpiece, and then he pulled back with his hand. Like, so and then pulling back of his hand made it slip from his fingers.

Patrick:

Uh-huh. Yeah.

Andrew:

So he was just spasmodically, no. I'm I'm gonna change my mind here.

Patrick:

Okay. So he was put so that sounds like it was attempt for him to hold on to it. Yeah.

Andrew:

It it that it was not he did not make the decision to let go of it.

Patrick:

Well It didn't often cause him to let go of it. It was kind of an accident.

Andrew:

Oh, I think it was more of a this is like a reflex. Like, when he's gonna put it up there, it's like, oh, it's burning my hand to leave it there. So it gets pulled back without him really thinking much about it, but that causes it to fall.

Patrick:

Okay.

Andrew:

And then that so he had decided to do it, but his hand wouldn't even let him do it. Yeah. But then once it dropped and then Gandalf picks up and puts it on the mantle, then it's okay.

Patrick:

Uh-huh. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. So it sounds like he tried to let go, he but he couldn't on his own.

Patrick:

And then kind of circumstance made it. So he ultimately

Andrew:

Yeah.

Patrick:

Was separated from him.

Andrew:

Yeah. Yeah. But we'll see next time that, Frodo Gandalf tells Frodo that Bilbo was the only one who ever willingly gave up the ring. And he needed all of my help to do it. Yeah.

Andrew:

And and you see how Gandalf helps him by Yes. By reminding him, by frightening him

Patrick:

Yeah.

Andrew:

By doing trying to persuade him. Yeah. All sorts of things. By even saying, you used to trust me. You know?

Andrew:

And so guilt tripping him. Every he pulls out all the stops, and only by doing that is is he a is Bilbo actually able to leave the ring behind.

Patrick:

Wow. Wow. So

Andrew:

okay. Well, that's, time flies. It's about a half an hour.

Patrick:

Yeah. Good.

Andrew:

Thanks. Patrick, it was great. And we'll look forward to talking next week about the shadow, the shadow of the past.

Patrick:

That sounds good. We'll talk to you then.