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Our guest this week is Richard Schwartz, PhD, who developed the treatment model of Internal Family Systems. He explains that everyone is born “Multiple” and that “all parts are good”. He gives the history of developing the model and examples of how it works. Trigger warning for doorbell alert in background noise we were unable to edit out. There is also reference to working with a suicidal part, without any graphic details.
Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Our guest this week is Richard Schwartz, who developed the internal family systems model of treatment. Richard Schwartz began his career as a systemic family therapist and an academic. Grounded in systems thinking, Doctor. Schwartz developed internal family systems, or IFS, in response to clients' descriptions of various parts within themselves. He focused on the relationships among these parts and noticed that there were systemic patterns to the way they were organized across clients.
Speaker 2:He also found that when the client's parts felt safe and were allowed to relax, the clients would experience spontaneously the qualities of confidence, openness, and compassion that Doctor. Schwartz came to call the self. He found that when in that state of self, clients would know how to heal their parts. The link to his website is included on the blog, as well as an additional video that has even more information about internal family systems. There is a trigger warning for this episode, not for content, but just letting you know ahead of time.
Speaker 2:There are several instances of a doorbell type sound in background noise that we were unable to edit out, but otherwise is not disruptive to the interview. Welcome, Doctor. Schwartz.
Speaker 1:I'm Dick Schwartz, and, I developed something called the internal family systems model of psychotherapy, which, suggests that people are not bundles of pathology, but instead have these, we call parts that get in their way sometimes, but are frozen in time and in traumas and are not what they seem and can be transformed. So so anyway, I've been at this maybe almost it'll be forty years in a couple years. So I'm pretty old, and it's recently become fairly popular and is moving beyond psychotherapy to become something of a daily practice for people and some some people consider a spiritual practice.
Speaker 2:It's fascinating to me. As you know, this podcast is about trauma and dissociation. And like you said, people have been applying internal family systems or they call it IFS to sort of a more broad application. But before we even get there, let's back up a little bit. What is your perspective or understanding of trauma and dissociation just in general?
Speaker 1:Trauma isn't traumasubtizing per se. What's traumatizing is the impact on your inner system and on your body and your relationship to it. So when when you suffer trauma, there are parts of you that will organize to move what I call yourself out of your body, which people do call dissociation. And that's why many trauma survivors report watching themselves being hurt. But after that happens, they these parts that do that, these protective parts that stay and take the bullet no longer trusts yourself to protect you and become what, in family therapy, we call a predefined children.
Speaker 1:They're young parts who don't really know how to run your life, but they think they have to because they don't trust that you can anymore. And the u, I'm calling the self with a capital s, which, you know, is something I should talk about more as we go. But and so from that point on, there are parts that believe they they need to take you out of your body to protect you in any similar circumstances. And so that's that's in the trauma world called dissociation, which a lot of trauma approaches see as a pathological, psychological process. But for me, it's just a protective part who doesn't trust that it's safe to let you stay in your body.
Speaker 1:And it's a part that you can talk to and negotiate with.
Speaker 2:So two things that I wanna follow-up on. One is that IFS is a general thing where those parts are kind of true for everybody, but it's also used in treatment of DID as well. Is that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. So the basic assumption is that everyone is a multiple personality, not in the sense that everybody has DID, but what I'm calling parts are really no different from what in DID are called alters in the sense that they're all full range personalities. What the difference is the degree of and the severity and chronicity of the trauma, which for people that carry that label was a lot. And so their system of parts got blown apart such that they have these amnesic barriers between them.
Speaker 1:And, it's very scary for them to be often not all of them, but to be, co present. And so the in the beginning of working with DID clients, I'm not doing a whole lot that's different from traditional DID therapists in the sense that I'm talking to each part individually, but also talking about their relationship with each other and whether or not they trust to let the self come back because a lot of times, there's a lot of fear of that because of the the perpetrators torturing them more whenever they they showed any of these qualities, what we call the eight c's of self leadership. So there's a lot of fear of the return of self.
Speaker 2:The other thing I wanna go back to that you said was I never heard that before about how part of you doesn't trust another part of you because you didn't keep yourself safe.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What I'm calling the self isn't a part in the same way that the other parts are. It's an essence inside of everybody, including DID patients, that can't be damaged and knows how to heal them and contains qualities like curiosity and calm and compassion, all the what I call the ACs. What else? Courage, connectedness, creativity, clarity.
Speaker 1:That's in everybody. It's sort of our birthright. So in a sense, that that's a more spiritual perspective on people. And with with people labeled DID, that's still in there, and it hasn't been damaged. But the parts don't trust it at all as a leader.
Speaker 1:And, also, they fear it, as I was saying, because their perpetrators torture them when they showed any of those qualities.
Speaker 2:So there's actually a part, so to speak, in all of us that has the capacity and the desire to heal?
Speaker 1:Yep. That's the centerpiece of the model, and it's very hard to believe that that wasn't damaged, particularly in people who have such horrible histories as as people with DID.
Speaker 2:Is that where some of the deep feelings of shame can come from where that feeling of part of you knowing, almost like you let the system down or let that internal family down of not protecting yourself even though cognitively we know what happened to us wasn't our fault.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Self doesn't feel shame, but the parts often, as I say, they're they're young who felt like they should have protected the system more do do carry shame about that.
Speaker 2:So tell me about this self with the capital s.
Speaker 1:Okay. There's a lot to say about it. So I stumbled on to the discovery of it early in this work as I was trying to help people with their parts. And this isn't just DID clients, although I had a few at that time. I would I'm a family therapist by training, so I was trying to get them to improve their relationship with their parts and have these dialogues inside.
Speaker 1:And they would be reporting on how it was going. And as I did that, I was and I learned this was down the road. I learned that parts aren't what they seem and even though the ones that seem very extreme and and dangerous aren't, all parts are good. And it took a while to learn that much. Then I was trying to have my client get to know them and help them out of their extreme roles by having decent conversations with them.
Speaker 1:And as I would do that, sometimes the client would be furious with the part suddenly. And as a family therapist, I was taught that if you're working with two people and one of them gets extreme, look around the room and see if somebody is inciting covertly with that person. And that person's then, you know, allied with the person signaling them. And we were taught as family therapists to find the one who's doing that and get them to step outside the room. Well, not outside in a certain way, but back out of the other person's line of vision.
Speaker 1:And when you did that, the conversation resumed in a good way. And I thought maybe the same thing's happening with this inner system as I'm trying to get these parts to talk to each other or I'm trying to get my client to talk to these parts. Maybe another one's jumping in and interfering. So I started asking if if they could find the one who, for example, is hating the critic and interfering with the conversation, and clients could do that. And I'd say, okay.
Speaker 1:Ask it to step back and not interfere. And clients would say, okay. It did. And when it did, suddenly, they would shift and into one of those c word qualities that I mentioned earlier. And the conversation would go very well, and they could learn about why the part was doing what it was doing, its secret history of trauma usually, and how it was frozen in time in the past and what I call the burdens it carry, which are extreme beliefs and emotions that kind of drove its activities like a virus, virus being a popular topic right now.
Speaker 1:And and they would have compassion for the part rather than hating it. And that would help the part shift also. So point of all that is that as I would do it even with clients with horrible histories, and it would be like the same person showed up, same CWR qualities and the same wisdom about how to heal themselves. And when I would ask clients, now what part of you is that? They'd say that's not a part like these others.
Speaker 1:That's me or that's myself. So I came to call that the self with a capital s. And now forty years later, with thousands of clients and thousands of people using IFS all over the world, it's safe to say that that self is in everybody and can't be damaged because, as I say, we work with people who have horrible histories and knows how to heal and is just beneath the surface of these parts such that when they open space for it, it emerges spontaneously and kinda will take over the session sometimes. So anyway, that's there's a lot more to say about it, but that's that's the story of how I ran into it.
Speaker 2:That answers several questions I had. One, that the internal family idea came from you being a family therapist. So that's just where that language came from, which makes sense now. And then that identification of the self as opposed to other parts and sort of a consistency thing and sort of a is it a constancy kind of aspect of the person? Is that what gets the capital s?
Speaker 2:I mean, how it's distinguished from other parts.
Speaker 1:It turns out that the self is sort of your seat of consciousness so that as I'm sitting here, I can notice different parts of me coming up from time to time. But the me who's noticing them is who I'm calling myself. So it's it's, again, your central essence. And it and it's blended, is our language, with our parts a lot so they can color the way I look at you. Right?
Speaker 1:I don't see you the way I look at myself, actually. So that's called transference or various other names. But and they and they can infuse myself with their feelings and perspective and and you and sensations. But as they open space and I get more and more into more pure self, there are this this set of feelings and and qualities that are seem to be universal.
Speaker 2:So the the self with the capital s is distinct from other parts because there's this overall awareness and capacity to sort of reflect on that in the constancy of who or what it's becoming, so to speak, with the feedback and and interactions from the other parts?
Speaker 1:I guess so. I mean, it's similar to what most spiritual traditions have words for but don't access in the same way. So in Buddhism, it'd be called Buddha nature. In Hinduism, it's Atman or the self and the soul maybe in Christianity and Judaism and and so on and so on. So for me, it's a healing healing essence.
Speaker 1:And it knows how to heal both internally and in the outside world.
Speaker 2:What what are some of the common kinds of parts that you see patterns with people working with?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So as I was in the early days exploring all of this, and again, the advantage I had was as a family therapist, I hadn't studied intrapsychic process at all. So as my clients started telling me about their parts, I was forced to just be curious and not presume anything. So what I now I'm teaching you and have been teaching for these years is pretty much what clients taught me. I'm a phenomenologist and empiricist, so I'm just giving you what they told me.
Speaker 1:And and I was also making mistakes in the early days because I would try to get to the parts that were hurting or felt terrified as quickly as possible because they were the ones that seemed to need the healing. And then my clients would have very severe backlash reactions after sessions. And so out of yeah. I come from a medical family. First, do no harm.
Speaker 1:So out of concern, I began asking clients in our systems, what was I doing wrong? And they taught me a map that is of the common roles that parts are forced into by the trauma. They're not the essence of the parts at all, but I'll describe that to you very briefly. So we before we're hurt so, again, my my take is torts or alters aren't the product of trauma. And I know that's different from the DID world where they they consider the mind to be naturally unitary and that the the altars are, you know, shards of the broken vase.
Speaker 1:For me, we're born multiple. We're born with these subpersonalities. So it's the natural state of the mind to have them. And when they're not burdened, when they're not hurt or scared or whatever, they're lovely and they're valuable and they have all kinds of qualities to help us in our life. But once they once you do start getting hurt, as, again, often as a child, the ones who are the the lovely inner children that before they were hurt, we found delightful and creative and playful and meant to us desire to connect with people and love people.
Speaker 1:Once they get hurt, no longer are they so much fun to be around because they have the power to make us feel again what happened to them, and they carry these burdens of pain and shame and terror. And so we're socialized to lock them away inside, and they come they they become what I call the exiles. And we don't even realize we're locking away precious inner resources. We think we're just moving on from bad memories or sensations or or beliefs. And so especially if you were abused frequently and chronically and you also have this kind of betrayal trauma because it was by a caretaker, you're gonna have a lot a lot of exiles.
Speaker 1:And when you get a lot of those exiles, you need a lot of what I call protector parts. And so a bunch of other parts have to shift out of their naturally valuable states into roles that they don't like, but they think are necessary. Hence, often, we're necessary to keep you alive when the trauma was happening. But then they're frozen in those roles back and frozen in the trauma trauma scenes. And so some of them then try to protect you by managing your life so that nothing similar ever happens or nothing that might trigger your exiles ever happens.
Speaker 1:And so they're trying to manage your relationships so nobody gets too close or so the people you depend on don't get too distant or they'll try to manage your appearance so that you look good and people don't reject you or they'll manage your performance so you get accolades. It's a lot. They so we call them managers. It's one class of protector, and they're working constantly and and, you know, doing a decent job for most of us. And they often become the inner critics because they are in over their heads.
Speaker 1:They're little kids who are trying to keep you safe, and they don't know what else to do but yell at you to get you to behave. Often yell at you like your parents did. Or they're trying to criticize you to run down your confidence so you don't take any risks. But it's not just critics that are managers. There's parts that scan for danger constantly and are hypervigilant and parts that try to take care of everybody else and don't let you take care of yourself and so on.
Speaker 1:There's, excuse me, lots of common manager roles. But the world has a way of breaking through those defenses, quote unquote, and triggering your exiles, at which point it's a big emergency because those parts, again, have the power to pull you back into those times. And so there's another set of parts who go into action immediately to try and deal with those flames of exile emotion that threaten to consume you. So we call them firefighters. They're fighting the fire that's coming out of your your gut often.
Speaker 1:And they tend, in contrast to the managers, to be very impulsive and take you out of control and make you do things that maybe aren't good for your body or your relationships, but they don't really care because they've got they think they have to save your life from these feelings. They think you'll die if you stay with the exiled feelings. And they're frozen in time as well. So that's the map of the territory. Again, the main distinction is between these exiles and then these protectors.
Speaker 1:And then there are firefighters under the rubric of protector and managers. And one of the things I learned early on is to not go to the exiles without permission from the managers. Managers. So that's a a lot of the work initially is to get to know the managers and honor them for their service and learn about what they protect and negotiate permission to go to that.
Speaker 2:That's really helpful, actually, seeing those dynamics, and I hadn't made some of those connections that you shared. How do you help them interact, or how does this get to the kind of things we see, like, in the workbook, for example? Or the the different parts interacting or are you helping people be aware of those different parts, whether they have DID or not? How does how does that happen in a session?
Speaker 1:Okay. So a client comes in and they've got a problem they wanna talk about. And at some point, I'll ask about what happens inside of them when they have the problem. And they might talk about different feelings or thought thoughts that happen. And as they do, I'll say, okay.
Speaker 1:So one part of you makes you feel really scared to do this thing you're thinking about, and then another part says, go for it. Is that right? And people say, yeah. That's right. They don't say, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1:Parts. Because everybody speaks that language. That's why I use the term. It's not the most sophisticated term, but it's very user friendly. And as they do, I'll say, is there one of those parts you wanna get to know or maybe even help not have to do this, not get in your way this way?
Speaker 1:And then I'll pick one. And if it seems like it's an exile, like the fear that I mentioned, then I'll say, well, we'll get to that. But first, I wanna talk to any parts that are afraid to let us go there. And then then I'll work to the ones that are work with the ones that are protecting it. And then the next step is when when we pick one, and let's say that it's the the go forward part or maybe even the critic because everybody's got a critic, I would have them focus on it and find it in their body, around their body.
Speaker 1:And most critics, people find in their heads, but other parts, they find other places. And then as they focus on it, I'll ask this question that we ask all the time, which is how do you feel toward it? And in answering that question, they're telling me how much of their self is present. So if they say I hate it, that wouldn't be self, or they're afraid of it, that wouldn't be self. Or they're even if they really depend on it, that wouldn't necessarily be one of those c word qualities.
Speaker 1:So then I would ask the parts giving them those other feelings to give us some space so that we can just get to know this critic. And if if those parts are willing, then I'll act they'll they'll say, okay. I'm it it relaxed. Let's step back. And I'll say, now how do you feel toward the critic?
Speaker 1:And it'll be one of those c words. They'll say, I feel curious about it or I feel compassion for it. I I don't know. It can't be fun to call me names all day or some version of that. And then I know it's safe to proceed.
Speaker 1:And I'll say, okay. Then ask this critic why it it does this to you, and don't think of the answer. Just wait and see. Just wait and see what answer comes from that place in your body. And so there'll be a little pause, and then they'll tell me what the critic said.
Speaker 1:And maybe it's something extreme, like, you're such a jerk that I have to do this. You know, you I'd hate you or something like that. And I'll say, okay. But ask it what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do this job. And in answering that question, usually, you're learning what the critic's trying to protect.
Speaker 1:So it could be, if I didn't call you names all day, you'd fail and then you'd feel totally worthless. So that would be a critic protecting a part in exile that carries the burden of worthlessness. So I might say, ask the critic, If we could go to that one and heal it so it didn't feel so worthless, would it have to be this hard on you? And most of the time, the answer is no, but I don't think you can do that. And I'd say, ask it if it'd be willing to give us chance to show that we can because we can if it lets us.
Speaker 2:So it even includes a bit of a somatic component because you're asking about the body.
Speaker 1:Yeah. A lot of times as parts manifest, they start to give the client lots of somatic feelings and move the body in different ways, and we we encourage that.
Speaker 2:How does that help?
Speaker 1:You know, a lot of these parts just wanna be seen. They wanna be witnessed. And they've been locked away or they've been vilified in different ways. And so it's just nice when they can they can expose themselves and feel accepted.
Speaker 2:I feel like in some ways that was way ahead of its time if you've been doing that for forty years because now the somatic stuff is all the rage. But if you were asking about the body all that time, you really had an understanding that somehow that was significant even if we're just now learning the science behind it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, to be totally honest, I there was an early time this is probably thirty some years ago when I learned about a guy named Ron Kurtzer. He learned about me and contacted me, and he started something called Hakomi. And he and I collaborated for several years, and so he helped me realize the importance of somatic stuff, and I borrowed some of that from him. And a lot of the two of it, anyway, the big somatic approaches, sensory motor and hep C, what's that, somatic experiencing, are spin offs from the glaucoma.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow. So that really shares some roots there. Had no idea about that. Thank you for sharing that piece of history.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:How how does a clinician find out more about IFS or how to get trained in IFS?
Speaker 1:Well, our website is ifs-institute.com, And we do run trainings all over, but for whatever reason, it's exploded in popularity the last, I'd say, five years. And so it's very hard to get into the trainings. We have a big waiting list. And so we're scrambling to try and meet the demand and maybe do more online kind of things, especially with this virus now. But, anyway, that's and then there's a online called the online circle, you can find off the website where, for a year subscription, you get a lecture from me every month and from one of my trainers and some videos and other things.
Speaker 1:So if you can't get into a training, that's a good way to get going.
Speaker 2:How does a survivor or a client who's interested learn about how to find someone who can do it?
Speaker 1:So on our website, there's a directory of therapists, and and we also identify who has been certified, which means they've had some extra training. And yeah. So by state or country, so that's the way to do it.
Speaker 2:Can you tell us more about what you were sharing at the beginning regarding some people even using it as a spiritual practice now?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. For for example, often when people go to meditate, the practice is to try and shoo away the pesky ego or in Buddhism, what's called the monkey mind. And that can be a lot of work because you're actually trying to shoo away these parts of you that are trying to remind you all the things you have to do during the day or so on and so on. And so there are meditations that also you can get off the website where instead of doing that, when you sit down, you go in and you notice the parts that you're very blended with and that are chattering away.
Speaker 1:And you just let them know. You just want maybe twenty minutes to yourself, and you'd appreciate it if they would give you that space. And they can jump back in as soon as you're done. And so you ask them to just relax. And and often, they're far more cooperative with that approach, especially if they've done it in the past and they see that it's actually better for them when you come back refreshed and with more access to self because, again, most all of them are really little kids, even the ones that seem so grown up.
Speaker 1:And they're they really, really crave the leadership of somebody who knows what they're doing and self is that.
Speaker 2:So it's really a way to help with communication and cooperation internally even. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of what it's about. So the three goals four goals of IFS. One is the liberation of these parts from the extreme roles they've been thrust into so they can be who they're designed to do to be, which is always valuable. And then the second is what I'll call the restoration of trust of the parts in the self's leadership. And then the third is what was called the the harmonizing of this inner system.
Speaker 1:So the parts get to know each other and and like each other and begin to collaborate with each other. And then finally, that what I'll call self leadership becomes a habit almost in your inner world and your outer world.
Speaker 2:So really something that you can practice on your own between therapy sessions as well?
Speaker 1:Very much. And, you know, some people can do more than others. Some people have parts that actually take them out, like you were saying, dissociate them right after a session, and so they can't even remember what happened. So but many people actually do a whole lot of work between sessions on their own, And they come in the next week. In the first fifteen, twenty minutes, they're just telling me everything they've been doing.
Speaker 1:And then we take it from there and and do a little more. So it's very empowering such that when clients have done, they'll often say some version of, you're a pretty good therapist, but I healed myself. And that's really what you're shooting for.
Speaker 2:Where could someone start just practicing this on their own?
Speaker 1:We are working on a program for the public that we haven't rolled out yet, let me think. Otherwise, you know, if people there there's a couple of books that I wrote for the public that have exercises in them, and I as I say, there are these meditations called Meditations for Self on our website. Also, the spiritual side well, the books for the public, one is called an introduction to internal family systems, and the other is called you're the one you've been waiting for, which is applying the model to couples or to relationships intimate relationships. And then I did a program for sounds true called greater than the sum of the parts, which is on the spirituality of the model and also includes a bunch of exercises that people can use.
Speaker 2:What else do you want to share about IFS or the work that you're doing that we need to know about before you go?
Speaker 1:You know, mainly, I guess, with your population that we have tremendous respect for all these parts and how they've saved people's lives and that they deserve to be honored and not vilified, even the ones who make you suicidal or make you enraged and wanna kill people and on and on turn out when you when you treat them with respect and hear their secret histories, their stories, to have just been totally necessary at some point in your life to keep you alive. And that there is this self in there. It may be tough to get to because there's so much fear of it because, as I said, certain perpetrators torture more when they see it. But it's really the same self that's in everybody else, and it isn't damaged and knows how to heal. And I've done this with many DID clients.
Speaker 1:And it takes a while before their parts trust that it's safe to open space for self. But once they do, self can come in and, and help everybody.
Speaker 2:I feel like there's a lot of hope in that that things aren't just hard or always going to be hard, but that you can really learn how to not just negotiate with parts, but that you can navigate the process of it. And that in itself is very empowering.
Speaker 1:That's right. And and I call myself a hope merchant. I'm selling hope to hopeless systems, and I'm trying to counter the hopelessness that a lot of the psychiatric field is is put into to therapists and clients. Yeah. It's very helpful.
Speaker 1:It's a model of transformation, not of just accepting parts the way they are. I mean, that's the first step, but also helping them out of the roles so they can be who they're designed to be. So, yes, it's it's a very helpful way of working and way of understanding yourself.
Speaker 2:How do you reach out to some of those parts that you are either afraid of or feel too overwhelming even if they are not, quote, quote, bad, but that because it's so unfamiliar to you that it feels too intense or overwhelming, and yet you're saying all parts are good. How do we hold on to that?
Speaker 1:So it's hard to do those parts on your own. That's why there are therapists. So but, you know, I've had many times where I'll be working with a client who's got a very suicidal part. And often, I'll ask to talk to it directly in contrast to what I was describing earlier because they're so scared of it. And we'll also ask the parts that are so afraid of it to give us a little space.
Speaker 1:And then I'd say some version of, okay. Are you there? The suicidal part would say, yeah. I'm there. Okay.
Speaker 1:And so you wanna kill her. Is that right? Yeah. That's right. And what are you afraid would happen if you didn't kill her?
Speaker 1:And you can imagine the answer to that. I mean, most of the time, they'll say, well, she'll continue to to be in this she'll continue to suffer this way. I can't stand this pain. I can't stand for her to feel this pain all the time. And I'll say, you know, if I could demonstrate that there's another way to get her out of her pain so you didn't have to kill her, would you be interested?
Speaker 1:And the part will say, yeah. Maybe, but I don't think you can do that. And I'll say, if you let us, I I promise we can do that. So it's like that. You know?
Speaker 1:And as the client is hearing that this part isn't so scary, that it's actually trying to protect them, then it's easier for them to not be afraid of it too. So it's just one example.
Speaker 2:Can you tell us about the skills training manual specifically?
Speaker 1:Are you talking about the manual by Frank Anderson as the first author?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah? Okay. Yeah. So that's a manual for therapists to use this with clients, and it's very practical. People like it a lot.
Speaker 1:They there's a lot of step by step kind of information. And
Speaker 2:Anything else that we need to know about IFS or working with parts or feeling comfortable trying to do that process or find someone?
Speaker 1:Let me think. You know, it's really, really important for therapists to access self and to stay in self in the face sometimes with the DID population of some very extreme parts that will wanna challenge a therapist, and test them or will not have any hope or will look like they have terrible symp symptoms. And so part of my job is to pump the fear out of the therapist that's been pumped into them. And the only way to do that is if they can adopt this perspective that knows that even, you know, these very scary psychotic sometimes or suicidal, as I said, or eating disordered symptoms aren't or dis dissociation or flashbacks, none of those are pathological processes. They're all the product of these protective parts or or of exiles popping out, panic attacks.
Speaker 1:You know, aside somebody's suffering a panic attack, I'm welcoming that terrified little part. And I'm saying, it's so great you're here. You made it. I get you stuck in a horrible place. We're gonna get you out of there.
Speaker 1:And it would help if you would separate yourself a little bit from a person so that they could help you too. And if the part trusts that, then suddenly they're not panicked anymore and the client's grounded.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for talking to us.
Speaker 1:You're very welcome. I enjoyed it. Thank you, Emma.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.