Manifesting Agency

In this first interview episode of Manifesting Agency, hosts Ian and Esther talk with Kath Steward, a retired GP and active member of the Ilkley community. Kath shares inspiring stories of her determined efforts to create positive change, from her early days advocating to study medicine to her more recent projects like establishing community orchards. The conversation highlights key lessons around persistence, finding allies, and adapting when needed. Kath's experiences showcase how the initiative of committed individuals can have a real impact, and she encourages listeners to stay the course in manifesting their own vision for change.

Links
  1. Margaret Mead (anthropologist) and her quotations:
    1. thoughtful and committed citizens
    2. healed thigh bone
  2. David Graeber and his quote about the ultimate hidden truth of the world.
  3. Ilkley, the town where we all live
  4. Climate Action Ilkley
  5. One Planet Living Framework
  6. Greenham Common and the Embrace the Base protest
  7. Monica Sjöö 
  8. Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND)
  9. TED talk "How to Start a Movement"
  10. Example of Kath's use of MURAL to think about a potential project.
  11. Culture Declares Emergency
  12. Esther's Declaration of a climate and ecological emergency
  13. Culture Declares Emergency Wharfdale and Airedale local hub
  14. Poem "Caminante, no hay camino" ("Traveller, there is no road") by Antonio Machado
  15. Alex Sobel, MP and the Climate and Nature Bill
  16. Caroline Lucas, MP
Three word summary generated with ChatGPT from the episode's transcript:
The interview with Kath Steward, encapsulating her journey and approach towards activism and community involvement, can be distilled into three pivotal keywords: Persistence, Community, and Adaptability. These terms not only summarize the essence of Kath's efforts but also serve as fundamental principles for effective activism and personal growth.

1. Persistence – Persistence is the backbone of Kath’s endeavors, from overcoming barriers in establishing a community orchard to initiating climate action in Ilkley. Her narrative underscores the necessity of not giving up in the face of challenges, bureaucratic red tape, or skepticism. Persistence reflects her determination (distinguished from stubbornness) to pursue goals despite obstacles, illustrating that sustained effort is crucial for manifesting change.

2. Community – Community is at the heart of Kath’s activism. Her projects, whether related to environmental sustainability or local engagement, are deeply rooted in the idea of collective action and empowerment. Kath’s work demonstrates the power of bringing people together for a common cause, highlighting how community involvement not only amplifies impact but also fosters a sense of shared purpose and belonging. Her ability to engage, collaborate, and build coalitions exemplifies the critical role of community in achieving significant, lasting change.

3. Adaptability – Adaptability shines through Kath’s ability to navigate the complexities of local activism and project implementation. Faced with hurdles, she exhibited flexibility in strategy and approach, whether in adjusting project plans to accommodate council requirements or in refining tactics to engage the broader public. This adaptability underlines the importance of being open to change and responsive to new information, allowing for the evolution of projects in ways that enhance their effectiveness and reach.

Creators & Guests

Host
Esther Abramson
..trying to remain rationally hopeful
Host
Ian Smith
Happiest when making stuff or making people laugh. Tech, and Design Thinking. Since 2019, freelancer and FRSA.
Guest
Kath Steward
Retired GP and community activist

What is Manifesting Agency?

Conversations with people who get sh*t done.

Ian:

Pigeons are trying to join in. Hopefully, nobody were able to hear them.

Esther:

That's a good cold open.

Ian:

That is. Yes. We must keep that. We keep that. So have we got any follow-up from the last episode?

Esther:

So Margaret Mead is the follow-up.

Ian:

Margaret Mead.

Esther:

Yeah. So I wrongly quoted. I think that's the way you say it.

Ian:

You wrongly attributed.

Esther:

I wrongly wrongly attributed, Margaret Mead's quote about a group of thoughtful and committed citizens being the only thing that ever changes the world to somebody else, but it was Margaret Mead, who is a US anthropologist. And I've actually seen something this week about her, but that she said about a healed thigh bone being the first sign of civil civilization, and I think that's really beautiful.

Ian:

That's amazing. I mean, I suppose the implication being that other people must have

Esther:

Cared for.

Ian:

Cared for that person.

Esther:

Yeah. Anyway, moving on. We haven't got time for that. But the quote I wanted to read today is a quote by David Graeber.

Ian:

Is this a thing? Are we going to read a quote?

Esther:

Well, a quote, a poem, a song, one of something wordy.

Ian:

Excellent. We're we're we're forming our our patterns and our habits for the show, so that's great.

Esther:

Go on. So here it is. The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something that we make and could just as easily make differently. Oh. So I think that's something that we will cover in our conversation, which you will hear soon.

Ian:

Yes. Excellent. Well, here we go.

Esther:

Welcome to manifesting agency, a podcast where we talk to people who get shit done. I'm Esther.

Ian:

And I'm Ian. And today, we're talking to Kath Stewart, a retired GP who's very active in our local community in the town of Ilkley in Yorkshire where we all live.

Esther:

We had a great conversation with Kath, so let's listen to it.

Ian:

Here she is. Well, let's begin by thanking you for coming. It's a bit experimental, this. We've not interviewed anybody yet. You're you're the first one.

Ian:

So, thank you for coming and letting us experiment on you.

Kath:

Okay. Well, I'll be a guinea pig.

Ian:

It's gonna be a treat, I'm sure. Welcome, Kath. Thank you. So why don't we start off by asking you to quickly introduce yourself at a sort of, tweet level of detail? Not that we have tweets anyway.

Kath:

I don't really tweet. But, anyway, my name's Kath Stewart. I've lived in Orkley for 25 years. I'm a retired GP. I have 4 children.

Kath:

I've been more active in the community, I suppose, since I retired.

Ian:

Oh, fantastic. And, of course, Ilkley is the hometown of this this podcast. So we, have direct experience of some of the things that you've been involved in during during your community activities. So we'll we'll we'll get to that, won't we?

Esther:

Yes. We're recording live from Ilkley.

Ian:

You know that recording live is a bit of an oxymoron.

Esther:

We're recording from Ilkley.

Ian:

Okay. Well, thank you for for that introduction, and, we are going to cover a bunch of So Can

Esther:

I just ask something?

Ian:

I think you should please put us on our family and ask something.

Esther:

I just wanted to ask if you consider yourself to be a person who gets stuff done, or is that something that you are like, I don't know.

Kath:

I suppose I do. I I kind of I get very impatient with people who find lots of excuses for not doing things. And so when I go to meetings, I end up often volunteering to do things because it just needs doing.

Ian:

Just out of frustration. Yes.

Kath:

Yes. I mean, that's how I became chair of the Ilkley Labour Party.

Esther:

Oh. Well well, that makes me want to ask, in what area of stuff are you not good at getting stuff done?

Kath:

I'm not good at conflict. So I'm not good at dealing with things if it involves conflict with other people.

Esther:

So you would you would avoid it?

Kath:

I would definitely avoid it. Mhmm.

Ian:

No. I'm totally down with that. I I'm quite similar.

Esther:

I don't think I am.

Ian:

Well, then, when we need to send someone into battle on behalf of the podcast, you've just volunteered.

Esther:

Mhmm. Well, yeah. I think that's a conversation for another time.

Ian:

Yes. Amen to that. So let let's kind of rewind a bit. Can you share a story from times past when you you start to see the beginnings of this mindset that you've developed around getting things done? Maybe a time when you thought, right, that's it.

Ian:

I'm gonna shake things up.

Kath:

The first thing that comes to mind, actually, is when I was at school and I had to choose what a levels to do. Mhmm. And I couldn't get I couldn't do the choices that I needed. And I knew I wanted to go on to university to do medicine, but I couldn't arrange my timetable. Mhmm.

Kath:

So I had to go and see someone, and I explained. And they said to me, what you mean you want to be a nurse? And I'm a stubborn so and so. And if somebody says something like that to me and I've said to them quite clearly, no. I want to do medicine.

Kath:

It just makes me dig my heels in even more. So I did. I managed to do it. So I suppose that was that's the first thing I can remember. And That I would yeah.

Ian:

Who did you have to talk to who sort of painted a bit of a picture?

Kath:

Well, it was in the 6th form. And it was the 6th form at the same school I'd always been in. It wasn't in a in a new place. So they knew me, And I had to go and see the head of the 6th form and explain what the problem was. And the first person I saw wasn't that sympathetic.

Kath:

But fortunately, the second one, who was one of the chemistry teachers, I don't quite know what her role was because she wasn't head of 6th form. And I don't know how I got directed to her, but I did. And she absolutely got it. So I have to say the first person was a man.

Ian:

Fun scene.

Kath:

And she got it, and she was the one that helped me sort it out.

Ian:

So you didn't need one of those time travel devices like in Harry Potter to go back in time No. Pretend 2 things at the same time. I mean, that's a a really great indicative story. And and do you feel as though that stubbornness was was always there?

Esther:

Can I just say, I don't think that's stubbornness? I think that's determination, and I think it's different to stubbornness. I'm not saying you're not stubborn, but I I think determination is the is the correct word in this instance.

Kath:

We yes. Maybe that's true. I think if you ask my mother, she'd describe me as stubborn.

Ian:

Well, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, I suppose stubbornness has some connotations, doesn't it? I always remember from yes, minister, those irregular verbs. Sort of, you are stubborn, but I I'm determined.

Kath:

Yeah.

Ian:

Was that determination kind of there already, or did you was it something you thought, well, I have to summon this now, or or I can't do the thing I want to do?

Kath:

No. I think it was just there. And I think when somebody says to me, you can't do something and there's no sensible reason why I can't do it, that is what kicks it off.

Esther:

It ignites the agency.

Ian:

Oh, I see what you did there.

Esther:

I know that Kath was also present at Greenham Common. I'm not sure what year, but I just think that's really cool at the Embrace the Base, protest against nuclear weapons. Is that right?

Kath:

Yes. Against the cruise missiles.

Esther:

Really cool. I went to an exhibition, by Swedish artist, Monica Sue. It's quite hard to pronounce Swedish names. But anyway, she was also at Greenham Common, and, yeah, there was a video of it, and it was really inspiring.

Kath:

I can't remember exactly which year it was, but it's when I was at university in Newcastle. So it must have been 81 to 84. And we I think, actually, George drove, the minibus down with a whole group of us.

Ian:

George George is your partner?

Kath:

George is my partner. And we went to Greenham Common. And, yeah, it was fantastic.

Ian:

So where where did that come from? I mean, what made you think this is a this is a really good idea? I mean, obviously, it's a massive thing at the time.

Kath:

Well, I suppose we were quite involved with CND. Mhmm. And it just seemed like a really stupid idea to sight nuclear cruise missiles in the home counties. I mean, that I there wasn't any agreement then to disarm, or it just seemed like a really bad idea. It seems a bad idea to put nuclear weapons anywhere, I think.

Kath:

So

Esther:

So you had to do something

Kath:

about it. Had to do something.

Ian:

I I suppose what I'm curious about is that if you sort of looked at the spectrum of opinion that was around at that time, quite a lot of people agreed with that, but very relatively few of them did anything.

Kath:

Well, I was a student, and that's the kind of thing you do when you're

Ian:

a student,

Kath:

isn't it? I mean, we yes. Yeah, it was very interesting. We we, George and I, started a CND group on the estate that we lived in. So when we were at University Newcastle, we didn't live in university accommodation, And council had extra housing that they couldn't get rid of, so they let it to students.

Kath:

And we lived on an estate called North Canton, which is quite a rough estate in, Newcastle. And we put a great big CND sign in our window. I mean, we painted it. It was, I don't know, meter by meter.

Ian:

Wow.

Kath:

And people started stopping us in the streets and talking to us about it, which was amazing. So we decided we would show a film at the local school. I can't remember exactly what the film was, but it was very very staged, black and white. It was about what hap but some of it was the government's own kind of propaganda films about what to do if there's a nuclear bomb. And it, you know, it's like hide under the table, and it was just ridiculous.

Kath:

And it would so it was just using some of that and then explaining how ridiculous that was. And and I mean, we had a hall full of people come to watch that. And I think if you'd said to anyone outside of North Kenton that that would have been possible, I think they would not have thought so. And we had quite a lot of youngsters, you know, school come along to it. And, yeah.

Kath:

So that that kind of started there, and, Greenham was just That's really stage further on from that.

Esther:

I was just gonna say that's really interesting because it sounds like you were the instigator, and that those people, and I think this is often the case, needed needed somebody to start doing something to then be able to follow or just, yeah, go and attend that film viewing, which then you don't know how that influenced those people and what actions they've taken since then. So, yeah, that's really great.

Ian:

It's like that TED talk that I always remember with the video of the dancing man. Yes. And, he's all on his own dancing, and then it turns into a movement. Yeah. It's called the TED talk is called how to create a movement.

Kath:

Yes. Yeah.

Ian:

So I'm gonna press pause now and adjust Esther's microphone stand as she's slowly sinking lower and lower into her chair.

Esther:

Which is hilarious because I've previously said podcasting is very good for your posture. Yeah. And then now it's the opposite.

Ian:

The microphone stand is

Kath:

is is doing

Ian:

its revenge. Okay. And we're back. Maybe we should have commercial breaks. I don't think, I don't think any mom will want to advertise with us with our 3 listeners.

Ian:

Suppose it would depend who they were.

Esther:

What what where are we? Where were we? Where were we?

Ian:

Yes. So I I really like that TED talk and that that idea. And I think your your story is a really great sort of illustration of of that happening.

Esther:

Do we wanna maybe, like, fast forward to

Ian:

Oh.

Esther:

To to where we are now? To, like, more more recent actions and doing of things.

Ian:

We need a fast forwarding sound effect. Yeah.

Esther:

I can try and do one.

Ian:

Oh my god. Well, I think, Esther, you'll be doing all our special effects for the podcast when you're on. If you can make a fast forward sound like that just off the drop of a hat. I think we're, we're we're permanently, permanently set up. So maybe tell us about a recent or more recent project that maybe you feel proud of.

Esther:

Or that you just have to do?

Kath:

Well, I I suppose that the one that we just had to do had to do was to start Climate Action, Oakley.

Ian:

Oh. So we are all members of Climate Action, Hockley. Why don't you talk a bit about that, how that started?

Kath:

Well, it was in 2018, I think. Been having conversations with my kids who were all late teenagers, early twenties, and talking about climate change and how awful it was. We went down to see friends of ours in Oxford. We Andrew, who we used to live with in North Kenton in Newcastle. And we were talking with them when we were down there.

Kath:

And Will, one of my sons, was there. And he said, well, why don't you just do something then? And I was, oh, yeah. Why don't we?

Ian:

Well, they say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Kath:

So I think the first thing I did was I went to the annual town meeting of Ilkley town council.

Ian:

An inspiring affair, I'm certain.

Kath:

Absolutely. And, for the first time, the town council had a Lib Dem Councillor on it, Mark Stidworthy.

Ian:

Steady on.

Kath:

And I stood up in the meeting, and I asked the town council what they were doing about climate change. And no answer came the reply for quite a while. And then Mark stood up and said, well, as you can see, it doesn't sound like we're doing anything. But if you've got any ideas, they would be gratefully received. So, me and George wrote quite a lengthy document, which with hindsight is actually based around the One Planet Living Framework.

Kath:

Although, I don't think we knew about the One Planet Living Framework at the time, about things that could be done in Ilkley that would make the place more climate friendly and would help to reduce emissions, and we showed that document to Mark Stidworthy who said, woah, if you take that to the council, you'll frighten them off.

Ian:

The heads will explode.

Kath:

Absolutely. So he suggested that we just go to the council, first of all, and ask them to vote on the fact that climate change was man made and happening, and that they would support us to form an organization that would help the council to deal with climate change, do things that would, help with climate change in Oakleigh.

Ian:

And, ever since then, the council has been dedicated to a program of climate change

Kath:

in relation? Not quite. But, I mean, it was a very interesting meeting at the town council, because we'd done everything that we were told to do. We'd sent in the motions beforehand, and, the the mem some members of the town council tried very hard not to hear the motion, and they wanted to rule it out and for all sorts of reasons. But fortunately, Mark Stidworthy objected to them and and said, you know, this has all followed the proper procedures, and we have to hear it.

Kath:

For some reason, they hadn't talked about it amongst themselves, so the Tories didn't know which way to vote. Quite a few of them abstained, including the mayor, when it came to voting about the fact that climate change was real and man made, because quite a few of them abstained and there were enough of the people there, it got passed. It all got passed.

Esther:

And that was in 2018. Is that right?

Kath:

That was in 2018.

Ian:

The council resolved that climate change was real and

Kath:

Yeah. And that they they were going to, support support how? I don't know. But, you know, that they they would support us to form an organization that they could work with.

Ian:

How did Climate Action Hokeley then come into being?

Kath:

Well, I think somebody else who was at that meeting for something else came to see us afterwards and said they were interested. And we started getting a few people sort of together to talk about it. We used to meet in the pub and talk about how to to do it, and we agreed that we would form an informal, but a a constituted organization.

Ian:

Mhmm.

Kath:

And so that's what we did in, I think, September, October of 2018. We started really looking at that big document that we had produced, and thinking about things that we could actually do innately.

Ian:

And a a lot of the projects have come from that, haven't they?

Kath:

Yes.

Esther:

Yeah. But they required this groundwork, which maybe almost seems like not a lot of action was happening, or it's not action that in the town was visible.

Ian:

Mhmm.

Kath:

It was

Esther:

very much underground fertilising the soil for all these projects to emerge now. And and they are, and they're they're still happening.

Kath:

So one of the first projects that I was really keen we started was the community orchard.

Ian:

So what what's a community orchard for those that that have never met 1?

Kath:

Well, it's an orchard in a community run by the community, or members of the community. So, it's yeah. An orchard is, I think, anything over 5 trees.

Ian:

Okay.

Kath:

So I used to wander around the Oakley thinking, oh, that'd be a nice place for an orchard. And, I think I decided that, I'd see if anybody else was interested, so I think I called a meeting, said if you're interested, come along. That was at Bartat, and I think we had about 5 or 6 people came along. So we decided to pursue it, and I contacted Bradford Council because they're the one with lots of land around here. Mhmm.

Kath:

And my first idea that I went to them with was, West Holmesfield, where the football pitches are, but they weren't happy about that. But so what happened was the parks manager, who's since retired, said, I'll come walk around Oakley with you. Oh. We can spot some you know, see what we think. So we did, and we identified the area where one of the orchards now is on the East Holmes field behind the rugby club.

Kath:

And we also identified the area of Wheatley Field, in Benridding, where the Benridding Orchard is. And he said, oh yeah, you can do that. Yeah. You can have that. Go ahead.

Esther:

That's so lovely. I hadn't realized that the park manager parks manager had done that. He wasn't involved prior to that?

Kath:

No.

Esther:

But wow.

Kath:

No. He wasn't. He was just really lovely. Yeah. Just small.

Kath:

He also while we were going around, he said, oh, you could put some vegetable beds there, and you could do this. And he came. He was lovely.

Esther:

Wow. He had a vision.

Kath:

Such a shame he's retired.

Ian:

That's interesting because there's something in that about bringing other people along and getting them and getting them involved. What do you think was his motivation? What do you think made him want to want to help you in that way?

Kath:

I think he was just a really helpful man, and I think he could see that these areas, all there were were grass, you know, and there was nothing happening with them. It wasn't as if it was somebody's football. I mean, West Holmesfield was somebody's football pitch, and that was why it was a no no. But it was like he could see that Maybe it was just make it easier for the council. We don't have to look after them if somebody else does.

Kath:

I don't know. I don't think that was his only motivation.

Esther:

No. I think he could see the vision shared he shared in the vision that you had for an orchard, especially when you're talking about him suggesting vegetable patches. Yeah. And I think, yeah, that's a really nice little, little story because I think there are so many people who perhaps aren't in it for the full project, aren't the main instigator or the core part of the team, but there's a lot of times when one person can do one small thing, and it just enables this whole series of actions, which bring about something really great.

Ian:

Do you think that's something to do with permission? Maybe giving other people permission to

Kath:

Yeah. To

Ian:

do something that they would like to do anyway.

Kath:

Yes. I I think it's, like, often it seems impossible to to start something, but once it gets going, it's got its momentum, and then other people can, oh, and what about this?

Ian:

Yeah. That seems like the kind of project that it's very hard not to get behind. I mean, it seems like, you know, everybody probably likes an apple tree. Yeah. I'm assuming the apple trees are involved.

Ian:

Mhmm. Did was there any resistance to that project?

Kath:

There was, but I think, really, it was resistance from people who lived near West Holmesfield who hadn't got the message that it wasn't going to be in West Holmesfield and were objecting to it being in West Holmesfield. And when they realized that it had moved, they were okay with it. That was only the resistance. There was it's not resistance. It's I don't know.

Kath:

It's lag. It's so although I had the the lower members of the council, Bradford Council, saying, oh, yes. You can do this. What I wanted was someone high up to say, yes, you've got permission to do this. So that once we'd planted the trees, they weren't gonna come along and say, oh, no.

Kath:

You couldn't possibly do that. We're pulling them all up again. And that was quite hard. That well, it was very hard work trying to get somebody to actually put in writing, yes, you can do this.

Ian:

So what what do you think was stopping them? I mean, as I said, it's quite a hard project to say, no. That's a terrible idea.

Kath:

I think I don't know. It I don't know. I mean, what I had to do was kind of pull strings, really. So I I'd met one of the Bradford counselors who is on the executive, and and he he's head of 1 of the well, he's head of the place department. I he's got a fancy name.

Kath:

I can't remember what it is. Alex Roche, or his name is. And I'd met him because I stood for the town council as a councilor. And I didn't get in, but I met him there and at the count. And so I thought, I know.

Kath:

I'll just give him a buzz and see what he says. And he took it up for me, and he found the person that I needed to give the permission. And even then, it didn't happen. So I had to email him and say, please, Alex, is there a problem? And he said, oh, I don't know why it's not happening.

Kath:

Had to go and do some more, whatever. And then I got the email saying, yes, you can.

Ian:

Desk visit. I'm just gonna go and hang around near your desk until you sign this thing.

Esther:

Good persistence there, I think.

Ian:

Yes. And, again, getting people on board and getting them to share your your vision there Yeah. Maybe.

Kath:

Yeah. And Yeah.

Ian:

I think that's I think there's a lot that that's quite a a good skill to have.

Kath:

I I think, like you say, with something like an orchard, it's quite easy because a lot of people feel quite warm about having a community orchard.

Esther:

Yes. And there and there are lots of people that get involved now with the pruning and Yeah. Those

Kath:

work. There were people that said, oh, it's never gonna work. They'll be vandalized. But actually, they haven't been. That's interesting.

Kath:

One tree got broken. By One tree out in all the 2 orchards. That's out of 50 trees.

Esther:

Broken by a person or by the weather?

Kath:

By a person.

Esther:

Oh. It's interesting because I think there are always whenever you want to do something and manifest a vision I'll

Ian:

fake it. That's it.

Esther:

By doing stuff

Ian:

going fake it a bit.

Esther:

I think there are always gonna be people, and maybe even part of yourself saying, it's not gonna work. You like, and you just have to ignore them. Or and maybe sometimes it's helpful to listen to them and and then say, well, actually, I know why that's wrong or you know?

Ian:

Well, if they're putting forward if they've got reasons why they think that and then they tell you what they are and you overcome those those things, then, you know, that's that's

Kath:

I think they particularly, they were talking about the Benridding Orchard, and I think they were just wrong. They they just anti kids, you know, it's it's this antisocial kids thing. But why would kids want to damage the trees? I I for me, that just there was no reason why kids would want to do that. And so I just

Esther:

yeah. You've got to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Ian:

Well, I mean, 50 trees is quite a lot.

Kath:

Yeah. Yeah. They're split between the two, Simon.

Ian:

Yeah.

Kath:

And we we put tree guards. We put wire tree guards around the the young trees so that they couldn't just be damaged by dogs or footballs or, you know, accidentally. Yeah. Because I I felt that was far more likely to happen than somebody going around pulling them up or chopping them down or whatever.

Ian:

That must be very satisfying to go to those places and see those those trees that may might not be there if the original idea hadn't been

Kath:

hung up. It is. It is lovely, and the trees are getting a little bit bigger now and a bit more substantial. And a lot of them have had their tree guards taken down, and it looks much more like an orchard. Have you

Esther:

have you had any apples?

Ian:

Yes. That's gonna be my question.

Kath:

There have been apples on the trees. I haven't had any apples yet. I I mean, one other thing that people said when we do it, well, people will just steal the apples. I said, well, it's not stealing if it's community orchard,

Ian:

is it? No. People can have the apples.

Kath:

But the problem is, I think, is that people are picking the apples before they're really ready to be picked, and that's an easy problem to deal with because we've now got notice boards in the orchards, and we can put when the the apples will be ripe and Yeah. You know, okay to pick.

Ian:

Help yourself to an apple after

Kath:

Yeah. Or, you know, for this tree, wait until this time. But for this tree, you can start.

Ian:

Zooming out a bit, I'm kind of stealing this question from Esther because she's very keen on it, but I'm I'm I've got there first. So, what have you had to say no to in order to be able to achieve the things that you have achieved? Tell us a story about that. I

Esther:

so I phrase this question as, like, the necessity of no, because in order to be able to do things, you have to say no to things, and it's something that I struggle with. So, yeah, can you think of anything that you've had to not do in in order to be able to do some of these thing projects that you have done?

Kath:

Well, I suppose. Yeah. I don't do a lot of housework. My house isn't clean and tidy and spick and span. I detest sitting through interminable meetings, so I try to avoid those kinds of things.

Ian:

She's still looking okay at the moment. Don't worry.

Kath:

Yes. But I suppose I'm lucky because I'm retired, and I have lots of time.

Esther:

You said no to work.

Kath:

I did say no to work. That is true.

Esther:

Yes. Paid and paid.

Kath:

Enough is enough.

Esther:

Paid employment, not for me.

Ian:

Well, yeah.

Esther:

Pension, yes, please.

Kath:

Just imagine what people could do if there was a universal basic income.

Ian:

Well, many things.

Esther:

Yes. Well, but they would have to believe that they could do them 1st, wouldn't they? I was gonna

Ian:

Tell them tell them some more about that, Esther.

Esther:

Well, they just have to believe in their own agency, I think.

Ian:

Before they can then manifest their ideas.

Esther:

Yeah. Sorry. I'll stop.

Ian:

We've covered the title now. I think we're we're good. Is there a story about some situation where it was hard to keep going, but you had to sort of overcome that kind of resistance that sometimes arises?

Esther:

In in any projects you've worked on?

Kath:

Well, I think in all of them. I mean, it sounds like setting up the orchard was very straightforward, but it took a long time. It took a long time, you know, of kind of thinking about it, talking to people, trying to find the right people to speak to, and, yes, trying to get people on board with it. So it it wasn't, oh, yeah, we're gonna set up an orchard, that's it, we're doing it. It took quite a while to find Mel, the parks manager, who, finally gave us the go ahead on those sites.

Esther:

It always takes longer than you think, in my yeah. I think Yeah.

Ian:

Even when you take it into account, though, it's gonna take longer than you think. Yeah. Even when you try to to to compensate for it. But was there was there a time during that where you considered throwing it all

Kath:

in? No. No. Never.

Esther:

Has there been a time?

Kath:

Has there been a time? Well, no. I don't I don't think so. No. I don't think so.

Kath:

There are various projects that I'd like to do that are on the back burner, but I haven't absolutely given up on any of them really.

Ian:

That's fantastic. That makes me happy to hear that.

Kath:

That doesn't necessarily mean that they will move to the front burner, but it's it's it's just that I think, well, that's something that really needs doing. And I haven't got the time or the energy right now, but it is something that I will consider again.

Ian:

Well, it's not that as though there's an enormous queue of people doing all those those things. So

Kath:

No. No. That's the that's the standard problem, isn't it? It's kinda getting enough people that really want something to happen together

Ian:

Yeah. To

Kath:

make it happen. Yeah.

Esther:

So what are you up to now? What's on the front burner now?

Kath:

Well, I have just started a new campaign for the Climate and Nature bill Oh. Which started life as the CEE bill

Ian:

I remember that. Yes.

Kath:

A couple of years ago. And it's a private member's bill, that Caroline Lucas actually took before parliament the first time around. It's now on its 3rd iteration, and Alex Sobel has just taken it to parliament as a private member's bill. And the idea is it's based on, the bill that got the Climate Change Act passed. So you just keep going, you keep doing it, you keep presenting it to parliament, until you get it through.

Kath:

And you gradually build up the momentum from all the MPs, until you get enough of them on board. Yeah. And so I have to say, I think Climate and Nature Bill is a better name for it. I think we might be able to get more people on board. So currently, it seemed like a good time to restart it because, coming up, it's sometime within the next Yeah.

Kath:

Probably 9 months. So, anyone can support the bill. You can you can sign up on the Climate and Nature Bill website as an individual, as part of an organisation, as a business, as a prospective parliamentary candidate, and as a parliamentary candidate. So we're going to be lobbying locally, businesses, organizations, prospective parliamentary candidates, and our MP.

Esther:

Love it. Great call to action.

Kath:

A project that's on the back burner at the moment, very much on the back burner, but it really very much needs doing, is, a local energy company. Oh. So if anyone out there is interested in starting a renewable energy company in Ilkley, then please get in touch.

Esther:

Or just do it.

Ian:

So if someone is sitting there listening to this thinking, I wish I could do something, but but but but what would you share with them as advice to help them get off the starting blocks, so to speak?

Kath:

I think find another 1 or 2 people who really understand and support what it is you want to do. Because I think when there's 2 or 3 of you, you can bat ideas backwards and forwards between you. You can develop your ideas. You can come up with creative ways of doing things, people, different people to approach. And just just keep thinking about it.

Kath:

Keep thinking about I mean, one of the one of the things I have done since the orchard is look at how we started the orchard, and how we did the project. And, thinking about, you know, what we actually did when we did it. And it was quite interesting. Mhmm. And I've used Mural Canvas about starting up and thinking about who you would contact and what you are offering and what benefits it would have for people locally.

Kath:

And you can develop those things, and then when you've done that, you you've got a much more solid idea to take to someone. I mean, even if it's just to take to the council to ask for support, either monetary support or just backing from them.

Esther:

Perhaps we could share that in the show notes, if you would feel comfortable sharing that with people. Yeah. Just because it sounds like that would be quite transferable for other projects. If anybody has something they were working on that they wanted to.

Ian:

We can share a link to that, can't we? For those who were wondering, Mural is a whiteboarding sticky notey templatey kind of kind of thing, which, which works very well for this kind of stuff. So, yeah. We'll, do what we can to share a link to that in the in the notes. So is there anything else in your list, Esther?

Esther:

In my list, which doesn't exist. No. I don't, I don't think so. I think that was a really nice conversation.

Ian:

So I've got one more thing.

Esther:

Okay.

Ian:

If there was if piece of people only took one thing away from listening to this, what would you wish it would be, Kath?

Kath:

I think don't get disheartened. Just keep going. If you've got an idea that you want to put into practice, you can see the benefits of it, just keep going. Don't don't let other people dissuade you. There are there are always umpteen reasons why you shouldn't do it.

Kath:

Mhmm. But if you think you should be doing it, then you should be doing it, and just keep going.

Ian:

What a fabulous piece of advice. Thank you very much. And thank you so much for agreeing to do this and letting us experiment on you. I I mean,

Kath:

to speak to you.

Esther:

How was it? Yeah. It was okay. Nice.

Ian:

So when when we're building our, our case for the next person, we'll just be able to quote you on that. It was okay. Said Kath. Hardly hurt at all. Thank you very much.

Esther:

Thank you.

Kath:

Thank you.

Ian:

No. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, we're so British. Wasn't that great?

Ian:

Yeah.

Esther:

I really enjoyed that.

Ian:

It's always nice to hear the the sound of laughter.

Esther:

Yes. Yes. But I think, yeah. I'd like to laugh. No.

Esther:

I wouldn't like to laugh less, but I'd like to hear the sound of my own laughter less. Sorry.

Ian:

This is why I do the editing. I get to hear all the sounds all the time. So can can you share anything that that really resonated with you from from that conversation?

Esther:

Yes. Loads of things.

Ian:

Loads of things.

Esther:

Loads of things. I'd just like to say I wish I had an apple because there was lots of apple talk, and I just think the sound effects of biting into an apple would have just been perfect. Anyway, I don't have an apple.

Ian:

You are in charge of sound effects now. You do know that, don't you? After your fast forward or rewind that you did earlier, you you're now the sound effects chief.

Esther:

Yes. It's a new role, but I think I've got potential.

Ian:

What do you think you bring to the organization in your role of sound effects? Obviously, sound effects is the answer to that.

Esther:

But so the AppleTalk, Kath said something about the orchards and how people sometimes pick the fruit when it isn't quite ripe.

Ian:

She did. Yes.

Esther:

And that, to me, sounded like a really good metaphor for projects that you have a lot of passion or, like, desire to to to do, but perhaps there's other things going on that mean that project isn't quite ripe and that you need to just not abandon it, but just give it some time, which is exactly what happened to us.

Ian:

Yeah. You're talking about the fact I bought the domain name manifesting dot agency

Esther:

A year ago.

Ian:

A year ago, and then we didn't do anything. Now we have.

Esther:

Yeah. Now now it's ripe, and we're eating it. Anyway, yes, that was the apple that was the apple stuff. And then one of the things that really stood out to me was the relationships that Kath mentioned, but only sort of briefly. So there was Mel, the parks manager.

Esther:

There was Alex, who helped helps get the written permission for the land use. And it just seemed to me like so these were very, relationships that had just come about very organically and through just contact. And the word that comes to mind to me is, like, ally allyship. And I think with Alex, she was saying, when I ran for the town council and I didn't get in, I happened to meet this guy called Alex, and he then helped me do this thing which then enabled this whole project happen. And I think that's just a nice little story about how even if things don't work out on one project, you will have gained things that you might not realize at the time which will help you in in the future, and whether that's relationships or contacts with people who who are helpful or knowledge and experience.

Ian:

Yeah. I think that's I think that's a really great takeaway. And it kind of makes me think about to to go a bit business y, which I'm sure you'll love me for. But there's this whole thing of stakeholder management where you need to identify these people who are able to sort of open the doors for you. And they're not, you know, as you say, not team members, but they're really critical and getting them on side in the way that Kath did is is absolutely critical.

Ian:

Because if she'd got in a in a strop with the council and rang up and had a go, you know, that that might have been or not, given what she said about conflict, but it might be satisfying in the moment, but it it doesn't actually getting people on side and working with them.

Esther:

Yeah. Building building bridges, not not burning them even when maybe in private you might like to.

Ian:

We're also not talking about about Kath Bridges there. She seems to be a non No. She's

Esther:

she's a builder. And then the second thing or the third thing I wanted to say or talk about was, I just wanted to do a tiny little plug of a of a project of mine.

Ian:

Surely not, Esther. Surely not.

Esther:

So I am involved with a movement called Culture Declares Emergency, and I have declared a climate and ecological emergency with them, and you can too.

Ian:

Yes. And we will make sure there are links in the show notes to, Esther's declaration and also to Culture Declares.

Esther:

Yes. To there's a local hub for, Wharfdale and Airedale. So that's that's there to support people in their declarations.

Ian:

Well, we'll include a link to that too. So fantastic.

Esther:

I think that was everything.

Ian:

Should I ask myself what my friend was doing?

Esther:

What about you, Ian?

Ian:

What about me? Well, I I thank you for asking. I think the thing that most struck me was, Kath's early sort of statement, and she said her mother would have described her as stubborn. And, we talked about the kind of difference differences between stubbornness and determination, and I really really like that. And stubbornness, I think, has a connotation as a kind of refusal to change your course of action or your perspective, even if there's really compelling and good reasons to do so.

Ian:

It's kind of it's a bit unreasoning and a bit kind of holding on for holding on's sake. Whereas determination is is quite different. I I think I feel that determination is about persisting in a journey towards a goal. And then if one way of doing it doesn't work, instead of just continuing stubbornly to to batter away at that, you step back and you find another way around. Yeah.

Ian:

And I think that really made me think about the difference between those two things. And, actually, I think Kath's determination really, really shines out, I think, a lot more than any stubbornness. Yeah. That I thought was a really, really good point to make.

Esther:

Yeah. Definitely. That makes me think of a poem. Can can I mention the poem? It's a Spanish it's a poem by a Spanish author who I can't remember the name.

Ian:

But we understand it.

Esther:

We'll put it in the show notes, and the English the line I'm thinking of is there is no path. The path is made by walking. So if you're determined, instead of, like, sticking to the line that you think is there towards your goal, you create new lines and new ways, new paths.

Ian:

Yes. That's fantastic. I I always love that kind of idea of a path. That's what they call it. There's a word for it.

Ian:

Like a discovered or something path where, you know, it's like there was an example of a university, and, they didn't put a path across a particular thing. And then

Esther:

Desire lines.

Ian:

Is that it? All the students walking backwards and forwards decided where the path was gonna be, and then they can just make it into a into a real path once they figure out where people

Esther:

Yes.

Ian:

Want to walk. I thought that I'm not I'm not sure how connected that is to everything else, but your poem reminded me.

Esther:

Yeah. Very much so. I I wanna do a project around desire lines, an art project at some point in my life when I have time.

Ian:

Yes. But, unfortunately, all your time is spent recording a podcast. So

Esther:

No. I have many

Ian:

Many projects.

Esther:

Yes. On the go.

Ian:

So being a nerd, I just thought I would, I I would put the transcript or a transcript from the interview into chat GPT. I said I said to her, if you have to summarise the learning from our interview with Kath in 3 key words Oh. What would they be and why? And the 3 words that it came up with were, number 1, persistence. Whoo.

Ian:

Number 2, community. Mhmm. And number 3, adaptability.

Esther:

Love it. I wrote down 3 words when I was

Kath:

Did you? Yeah. I put

Ian:

So we're now we're we're having got gone for the robotic three words, we're now going for the human ones.

Esther:

I put allyship, apples, and action. I just decided 3 words beginning with a.

Ian:

Oh, wow.

Esther:

And adaptability or whatever

Ian:

that Adaptability. Yes.

Esther:

Yeah. Not I'll have that as well.

Ian:

Well, it does begin with a, so I think So thanks again to Kath for joining us, and, we'll be back with another episode.

Esther:

Soon. Yeah. Thanks, Kath. Also, just quick shout out to Andrew who was mentioned very briefly. Andrew introduced me to a show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Esther:

Best show ever. Go watch.

Ian:

Let me

Esther:

know what you think. Ian.

Ian:

Esther has already made me watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and now I know that's it's Andrew that I need to be having words with. You're the 7 seasons.

Kath:

You're the only person who's

Esther:

actually watched it off my recommendation. So thank you because, yeah, I've told a lot of people, and none of them have actually watched it.

Ian:

Well, it's it's it's not a small commitment. Excellent.