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Parakeeto's Carson Pierce explains why chasing more work rarely fixes a struggling agency, and walks through the numbers to check first: delivery margin, utilization, and what you charge per hour.
Agency Forward explores the future of agencies as tech and AI drive down the cost of tactical deliverables. Topics include building competent teams, developing strategic offers, systemizing your business, and more.
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Chris DuBois 00:00
No one was asking for another community, but I've made one anyway. So what's different? The dynamic agency community is designed around access rather than content. Access to peers who've done it before. Access to experts who've designed solutions. Access to resources that have been battle tested. And right now, the price for founding members is only $97 a year. Join today so your agency has immediate access to everything you need to grow. You can join at dynamicagency.community. It's easier than ever to start an agency, but it's only getting harder to stand out and keep it alive. Join me as we explore the strategies agencies are using today to secure a better tomorrow. This is Agency Forward. Most agency owners will chase more work when they're hurting. When does that backfire?
Carson Pierce 00:57
All right, jumping right in. Yeah, we've been talking about this a lot lately because I have so many agency clients who their problem right now looks to be pipeline. There's not enough work, you know. New business is just drying up, and so they look at that and they they think the solution is immediately. Well, I need to go and chase more work, more work, more work, and we are encouraging agencies to look a little bit more closely at their internal metrics before they go out there, right? Because it could very well be that the reason you're not profitable is not that you have enough, don't have enough work. Maybe your team structure is wrong. Maybe your margins are off. There's so many reasons, and if you don't look at that first, you're going to be you're going to go out and chase new work. You're going to throw that into the pile, and the pile is is ultimately losing you money. Every hour you work, you're losing money, and you're just adding more hours to it. So it ends up being a really bad situation. Now, I'm not saying that sales is not a problem. It it quite often is, but even just the like taking the time to look at those numbers to know what kind of sales you're chasing, yeah, what what kind of clients or types of work are more profitable for you, is is well worth the time to do.
Chris DuBois 02:16
I think, man, I'm trying to remember this conversation now. Marcel and I had chatted at one point about like I can't remember if it was when I was on his podcast or he was on mine, but we were talking about like where is that stage where you need to focus on operations and stuff like internally, financially, like where is that kind of growth point? Because like obviously you don't want the leaky bucket, but at the same time, if you have no business coming in, it's like you're spending all of your time focused on like, well, I got to make sure I have the SOPs, and I got this. It's like, bro, you don't even have clients. Like, what, right? Like, we got to start there and then grow. I guess what, where would you say is like the first kind of point of like solve for the client problem first until you get to like this ish revenue, and then let's do some internal work and make sure you're straight before you start stacking, like to create more problems.
Carson Pierce 03:07
Yeah, I mean, anyone who's sort of built up an agency from nothing knows that early stage feel, which is find a client, any client, just get some clients going, and you know, I mean, if you went back, no people typically not tracking their time too carefully at that point. But if you did, you probably realize you worked for like $12 an hour or something ridiculous. You're working all weekend, whatever. But didn't matter because all it was it was just about getting the clients in, right? But there does become this inflection point later on where the operational metrics are are more important, it's going to be when you have a team that you have to keep utilized, or else you know that's going to hurt you. I don't know what the exact number is off the top of my head, but yeah, there is there is a point where you're paying people to work, and if they don't have enough work, that's you're just throwing money for out for nothing, and we need to start thinking about all the ways that the the the met the math works on that. How much we making on per hour? How much they cost us per hour? How much work do we have in the pipeline? All those numbers have to work together,
Chris DuBois 04:18
right? Yeah, and it's it's definitely a different variable than like just how much money are we bringing in? Because like I I had one client who was I don't know about 700k annually, and he just did a couple like changes internally, and all of a sudden his profit margin was like through the roof, and it was you know just awesome. Like he he solved some stuff that was like dangling problems forever, and then he created a business that he actually wanted to be a part of. Awesome!
Carson Pierce 04:48
I mean, so many agency owners don't don't pause to see how those numbers work together,
Chris DuBois 04:54
right?
Carson Pierce 04:55
And you'll see things like I don't know a shiny logo. Or just a big budget, and you go like, "Yes, I'm going to do that, and then you start chipping away at us, like, "Okay, that that client is giving me $400,000, but $200,000 of that is going out to contractors, a media spend, or something. And then you've got how much time it actually takes you to do the work, and you realize, "Oh, in the end, I'd be better off saying no to this, what looks like an incredible opportunity, but if you don't stop and and do the math on it, yeah, you can just get yourself into real trouble.
Chris DuBois 05:29
Yeah, where would you start for that math? Like, where where would you tell agencies to start looking?
Carson Pierce 05:35
So, probably the most important number that we always like to look at is delivery margin. So that is, well, let's start with top line revenue. You have top line revenue, and then we're stripping out pass through. So, if it's going out for a media spend or third party contractors or something, that's not money that belongs to you, and we don't like to count that in the math because I've seen agencies go very, very wrong when they think they're making a certain amount and they're not really right. So, like, strip that out. Now you're left with the money that belongs to you. We call that agency gross income or AGI. And of that, we want to spend 50% or less on actually doing the work. So that's the team that that does it. That's fully loaded. So that's their benefits, their taxes, everything. The software that they need to use, any other any other tools that they have their hands on, like what does it actually cost to deliver that work to the client, and that number should be 50% or less. That number trickles down to everything else. If you're off on that one, you will not have enough money left to cover off all your overhead expenses and still have a profit. So we trace it back to one number. That was that would be the one that I'd be chasing.
Chris DuBois 06:43
Yeah, the it's interesting how many agency owners I think even avoid looking at their numbers like in a that are fine. I don't know if it's like, and I've asked this question to multiple people on this podcast. I don't know that we've ever had like came to a good answer, but I'm going to pose it to you now. It's like, is it a fear thing? Like they just they don't know enough about the numbers, so they're like, "Well, let me just not look at that, right? Like when you know you're in credit card debt, you people will avoid looking at their credit cards. It's like, is it that, or is it just they're overwhelmed with the numbers? Like, let me just focus on the things I can control. Like,
Carson Pierce 07:18
yeah, I think they're well. So when you talk about credit card debt, I'll tell you the story that always comes to mind for me is my own personal story. In my youth, I was not good with money, my own personal money, and I did that exact same thing. Like I knew I had credit card debt, I knew I probably didn't have enough money in the bank to pay off my the cards and whatever, I just knew it was a mess, and I did exactly what you said, which is try not to look at any of it. Don't open up my bank account. Yeah, yeah, just avoid it altogether. Which of course just makes it worse. And for me, the turning point was I end up working with I'll call him a financial advisor, but I didn't have money to like create a portfolio or whatever, but he just helped me understand. And once I understood, I don't know basic things like credit card rates and you know investments and whatever budgeting. Once I had a grip on that and felt comfortable and confident with it, it changed everything. It's like I kind of ended up leaning into it and completely changed it all. I think agency owners are the same way. When and and so many agency owners did not start in this because they want to run a business. They didn't want to like check their P and Ls and stuff. They just want to do good work. And so it's not. It's a little bit foreign to them. They don't know exactly how it works. They're going to open it up. They're going to not understand what they're looking at. Maybe that feels uncomfortable for any number of reasons, and so it just becomes this thing to avoid or to hand off to someone else. And handing it off to a bookkeeper or whatever typically means you're giving it to someone who doesn't care about it as much as you do. Yeah, and you know things can go sideways there too. But for me, what I've seen in working with agencies is the educational component. Is I mean, if you're working with me, you're working with me probably because I'm going to help you, you know, expose the numbers and and fix your profitability problems. But I think the biggest benefit is the educational side. Like we're going to have conversations every month, and we're going to learn together what do these numbers mean and how do they impact other numbers, and what do we need to care about, and what can we not worry about. And it's that level of comfort that allows agency owners to kind of yeah lean into it and and feel like they have some control over it.
Chris DuBois 09:48
Yeah, I guess if you're looking at it right, all fear does come from like the unknown, and so whether it's through like exposure therapy or hey, we're just going to learn about this stuff. Yeah, because like even. And say I was going to outsource to like just a bookkeeper. It's like that that can actually be pretty dangerous if I don't have the understanding of what I'm outsourcing in the first place. Yeah, and so education probably is that first step of like let's let's make sure you under you know what these numbers mean, what they can do for you. Then you can make decisions after that.
Carson Pierce 10:18
And I hadn't really thought about it before, but if we, if I was out there selling education, like, hey, I'm going to teach you about your how to read your PNL or whatever, I don't know that agency owners would be into it because, like, this is what they're trying to avoid. Like, but accidentally or not, we've kind of wrapped it in this idea, like, hey, we're going to come and do this work, and it's almost a byproduct that you're going to learn how it how it works and how the numbers map out. So maybe we've stumbled into something great by accident.
Chris DuBois 10:51
Yeah. Well, and it's I think with the the education around the financials, it's like for a lot of people, it doesn't feel as closely tied to the problem itself, even though it directly relates to the problem, but nobody's looking at their numbers saying like this is the urgent matter. It's like I just need more clients, or I just need the team's utilization to be improved. Right? They're finding something that they can pin it on. When in reality, if they just had a better understanding of how the entire system works through those numbers, it probably would,
Carson Pierce 11:19
yeah,
Chris DuBois 11:20
actually help.
Carson Pierce 11:20
And your example of utilization is a good one because we always look at how much are we making per hour and how much how utilizes the team. Those two things always work together, and there's a whole bunch of math that will end up in the delivery margin number I talked about earlier. But it usually comes down to those two things, and they offset each other, right? So if you tell your team, "Hey, we want you to be 70% utilized, well, all of a sudden, everyone's timesheets show 70% utilization. But if all they're doing is logging more time to client work because that's what you told them you wanted, but you're not billing more, your your rate is going down. So we have to look at the whole picture, and and so your point about utilization, if we if that's the number that we are chasing, but it's the wrong number, we could completely be blowing up something in the wrong way, and hurting in in any number of ways. So yeah, you need to understand that holistic picture of things,
Chris DuBois 12:18
right? Yeah, it's a number in this entire machine that has to be factored in, and like it is interesting too because I do think like Parkinson's law plays plays into that where it's like, oh no, I need your utilization here, and it's like all of a sudden their utilization hits it, but we didn't close any more business, and we're like, or shift our processes at all. It's like, oh, that's that's weird. Why didn't
Carson Pierce 12:38
that work? Yeah, but
Chris DuBois 12:40
yeah, something that I wanted to talk about here was like oftentimes the team does feel slammed. But if you were to look at the utilization rates, you're like the numbers say that we can easily take on more clients right now. But everybody says they're busy; they can't take on more work. Like I don't like where should we be looking? Like what do we believe in this process?
Carson Pierce 13:02
Yeah, I. So this whole conversation so far has been like, hey, understand your numbers, look at your numbers, etc. But really, I think your numbers are only half of the story, and this is a perfect example where, I mean, it happens all the time. Go and look at the numbers and go like, hey, your team is only utilized half as much as we want them to be. We're throwing all this money away, essentially with low utilization, and so then the agency owner will either talk to people or they just have heard it already. Which is no, no, no, we can't take on any more work. We are slammed. You know, please, please help us, and so how do you balance out those two things? I think they're both true. It can be true that your team is not actually putting in as as many billable hours as you want them to, and feel completely overworked at the same time. And usually, it happens for a lot of really subtle reasons that don't show up in the numbers. One I see the most probably the most is task switching. So I mean, if you give a developer one project and just give them a backlog and they go heads down, they're going to be incredibly. They're going to feel great. Usually, they don't usually feel overwhelmed in that kind of situation, and their utilization is going to be really great. So everything's perfect. You give someone else 15 projects, and they have to bounce around and do a little bit here and a little bit there. The problem there is they're going to feel incredibly busy, and the mental load of switching is adds to that, but you're leaving all these gaps in between projects behind, and your utilization as a result shows up lower. So it's like, yeah, in an eight-hour day, I did eight projects, but I only spent half an hour per project. That's half of your time. The rest of it is just moving between projects. So that's a big one. Another one. And I've experienced this myself. If you are given tasks that you're not great at, like you you struggle, it's going to take you a lot of thinking. You're going to be slow at it, all that kind of stuff. You're outside of your zone of genius. You will feel like that is a lot more work than you're actually putting in, and some of it is just like the math of time tracking. So, like, oh crap! I worked four hours on this thing; it should have only taken me one. What do I do with my time tracking now? And it just becomes really stressful. So I see a lot of that too, where the work just feels harder than it really is, and you do take more time on it than you than you would normally. And then the third one is just internal stuff. Like we don't, I don't think we fully account for all the internal meetings, filling in timesheets, whatever that come with the job that take away from our billable time. So now we've got this expectation that people are going to be 80% billable, but yet we've given them 40% of their work week on internal stuff.
Chris DuBois 16:06
Yep,
Carson Pierce 16:07
and just the math just doesn't work then.
Chris DuBois 16:09
Yeah. Okay, I got so many thoughts to want to get your opinion on. Yeah. So one of the thing, like, just to add to what you were saying, like something that I'd run up on before too was when I was running an agency. It was like some team members would say, "Yeah, I don't know that I can take on any more. But when I even just look at how many hours they build for the week, it's like they keep doing like 34 hours and stuff when they're you know set for 40. And it's like, okay, so you're you feel like you're already maxed out, but we still have six hours floating somewhere that aren't you're not billing for anything. Yeah, and so it's like we just got to like look a little more granular at the day to day and see like what's going on. But something that we attract was the efficiency rate, and so separate from utilization, I guess. But and at the same time, it was like it was pretty related. But it was more like we would bill if if you had a client with a one hour task and stuff, but you did spent four hours on it. It's like okay, well, your efficiency for this task is 20% or something, right? And so that's okay because then if we are a new hire, it's like we know your efficiency is going to be low, like, and so we ramp it up over time. But then we also had like the max anyone could have was an 80% efficiency because the other 20% of the time was going to admin tasks, jumping between tasks. Like we were kind of budgeting for that, so they knew, hey, I still need a bill for this time, and like make sure it's being tracked. But it was there. I guess have you seen any other systems similar to that, or or completely different that help agencies with staying on top of this.
Carson Pierce 17:43
Yeah, so it's interesting you bring up the efficiency rate. It's not something that we use at Paraceto, but I've been looking very closely at AMI's numbers, and they use billability, utilization, realization, all in different ways. And you know, talk to any anyone working in agency land. They all have different definitions,
Chris DuBois 18:04
right?
Carson Pierce 18:05
So you know what I'm calling utilization is literally tell me all of the hours that you focused on this client for. Like, I don't care if you're going to bill it. I don't care if you you know you struggled for four hours on a one hour task. Like, I want to know all those hours because I want to know the real picture of what's going on for that client. Your idea of efficiency here is like okay, out of those hours, how many could we actually bill for?
Chris DuBois 18:31
Right,
Carson Pierce 18:31
which I think is a really useful metric as well. For us, it shows up in that that rate. Like, hey, we thought we were billing $200 an hour, but because of our efficiency, we're actually only billing $100 an hour. So it's just different ways of doing that. That same math, I think they're both useful. There's there's one other component that we do with our utilization number. We will look at the entire agency. So part of that utilization number is not just people doing work. It's how many people are doing work versus how many people are doing overhead tasks. Like you've got a sales and marketing person, you've got the CEO, whatever. What's that balance like, and is that in check? Oh, and there's one more thing too, which I've just run across recently on a couple agencies, which is time off, because we also want to count that in the equation. Yep, it's very easy to ignore until, like I've seen these last couple, until it's not like I've got one agency where they were giving people close to 50 days off a year, and that's great if you work there, but in terms of like making the business operate profitably, it starts to create a problem. Yeah, I've got another agency that's just working with them today. They only ask their team to work 32 and a half hours a week. They've got lots of other PTO time. You know, they've got several like company retreats, all that stuff. And again, cool, but the numbers have to work. You have to find out where are we going to actually bill our time so that we can run this company.
Chris DuBois 20:11
That was we we planned every quarter for everyone to have a week off, and so when we factored the numbers for the quarter for everyone, it was planning for 13 weeks, like with one that was just empty of of points. But I just want to hit one other thing on that efficiency rate in case this was helpful for anyone. Because we knew how much we were paying every individual on the team, we could also figure out what that individual's billable rate would be, and so we could just look across the board and see, like, well, which team members are like the most profitable, I guess, in those. And but because our efficiency would be tied to like, like an operation specialist did not need a high efficiency rate unless they were like, I don't know, publishing some blog posts for us to like help the marketers, right? Otherwise, everything's internal, and so they might only have like a 10 to 20% efficiency rate. But so the numbers would still jive, so we could still see who was contributing the most to the business. That was kind of just a lot of fun to look at. I don't know that I made any like critical decisions with it, but it was like it was interesting to see how you could influence those things.
Carson Pierce 21:18
Well, related to that, one of the things that we do look at. So when you think about someone's cost,
Chris DuBois 21:24
yep.
Carson Pierce 21:24
And when we're looking at cost per hour for someone, we're looking at including benefits, taxes, everything. Like, how much does this person cost us to employ? And if I don't want to bore people with actual math, but typically what we're looking for is about a 70% margin on any given hour of time, if I can get a 70% margin on that time, which works out to like three, three and a half times the their cost. So if they cost us $30 an hour, I probably need to charge about $100 an hour to cover them their cost, cover unused utilization, cover I don't know the software they're using, etc. and all my other overhead, and still make a profit. So yeah, understanding that relationship for any individual person is going to be, and it's going to be different depending on how much they cost you. But understanding what that looks like is important. And I also had an agency I worked with last week where they introduced a very expensive team member, and all of a sudden, their cost per hour across the whole company went up by like seven bucks. And and that happens all the time. Maybe not that dramatically all at once, but like you give people raises, you hire this new person, etc. and your cost per hour keeps going up, and if we're not watching that and understanding that we need the same margin on that, I had to tell this guy you need to charge 25 bucks an hour more than you currently are just to cover off this new person and how it impacts the whole picture. But we just lose track of that stuff if we're not paying attention.
Chris DuBois 22:58
Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. What would you recommend the like ratio per FTE be? Like, should they be doing a four to one, or
Carson Pierce 23:09
oh, for like overhead to
Chris DuBois 23:11
yeah, like just so like you were just saying, right? We should be doing like 3x on this person, but is there like a base number? You're like, this is the target. Just aim for this, and and you'll be set.
Carson Pierce 23:20
Are you talking about like per hour
Chris DuBois 23:24
per dollar you're paying a team member? How much should you be making?
Carson Pierce 23:28
Yeah, yeah. So that's like that three, three and a half, somewhere between there. So the the math on it, if you want a 70% margin, you divide it by the inverse of that number. So you're dividing it by point three, which works at the three, three and a half percent or three and a half times. Okay,
Chris DuBois 23:41
yeah, I wasn't sure if it would be a higher like four is like the target. Yeah, like it also
Carson Pierce 23:48
depends. I mean, that number again. When you're thinking about all your numbers holistically, that number does tie into your rate. So yeah, if you have or sorry, into your utilization. So if you have really high utilization, you might not need to make as much margin on a person. I'll give you an example contractor. Essentially, if you're paying a person hourly like that, like I only pay them when I use them, your utilization on them is 100% and I don't need to make a huge margin on that. I just need to, you know, have some some markup on it. Whereas if you've got someone internally that they only work 20% of the time because I don't know work slow. They're highly specialized, etc. You need to make a really good margin on that person's time to make sure that you can still cover off their costs.
Chris DuBois 24:32
Yeah. So okay, let's talk rates for agencies right now, where like, what have you seen shifting over the past couple years? Now, are rates going up? Are they dropping? I think we've seen like AI comes in. The the pricing conversation has been a lot different for a lot of agencies, but has that given given them pricing power? Because of specialization, or has it kind of commoditized things more? In your view,
Carson Pierce 25:04
yeah. So for years, it was always like, oh, you know, rates have gone up a little bit, a little bit. Like there was always this incremental shift in rates over time, and then yeah, the introduction of AI has kind of confused everything. Yeah, like what what does it actually mean now? Do we deliver work more cheaply because we can? Do we set our prices on a more value based pricing model, and you know reap the rewards of of earning that faster? I don't know that there's a right answer. I will say I have not seen rates increasing at the same level that we used to see, like if it went up 10% every year, it feels like it's kind of plateaued now. And part of that is, I mean, yes, we can do our work more efficiently. Clients know that. Clients aren't willing to pay, you know, an increasing price when they know that we're doing the work in less time. So I think I'm starting to see that shift happening. Also, I think because, you know, to our earlier conversation, pipelines are a bit dry, sales are hard. I think there's a hesitancy on the part of agencies to raise prices because they're like, you know, we just need the work. We're not gonna, we're gonna push anyone on price at this at this time. We just want to get the work in the door, so that's happening as well now. As for the the bigger impact of this, I think in the short term, what a website used to cost or any piece of work, we can probably still charge around that same amount and bring in our AI tools and do it faster and make more margin. But as more as that becomes more like table stakes, other agencies are going to come in. They're going to lower their prices because they can. They know they can, and they can still make a decent margin. That puts pressure on other agencies' pricing to come down. And meanwhile, clients are recognizing that this is happening, and they're expecting lower prices as well. So I think there is this pressure on being more efficient and lowering our price as a result, which sounds like a terrible thing for agencies. But if you look back, if you've been around long enough, you know, like I don't know, Photoshop came in or Dreamweaver. Like we brought in tools that made the work so much faster, and things shifted and adapted, and it all, you know, it's different in the other on the other end of it. But we found ways to still
Speaker 1 27:34
make
Carson Pierce 27:35
a business of
Chris DuBois 27:35
it. Yeah, it is. It's like this: the effort paradox, where it's like we want to be more efficient, but as soon as the client sees the efficiency, like they put this extended value on effort, yeah. And so as soon as they see that we're being more efficient, then it's like our prices go down. It's like so we're not incentivized to be more efficient, and it's like yeah, well, what do we do?
Carson Pierce 28:01
I I remember working at an agency where we got the work done really fast on this particular project, and there was internal discussion like, "Well, do we give them the work now, which will be in their benefit, but we don't want them to know we did it that fast because they can do the math, like you know. So we, I think we actually waited to deliver it, so that the client wouldn't question our rates on it. It was crazy.
Chris DuBois 28:27
No, it's. I mean, even with some clients that I have now, where we have we figured out the model for doing things well, it's like we start spelling out every step of this process, so that they don't feel like, even though it's moving fast. We're showing them all of the things that are happening, so that they can see. Oh, there is effort here. It's not just that they're quick at it or whatever.
Carson Pierce 28:48
Yeah,
Chris DuBois 28:48
yeah. It's such an interesting time that we live in. Who would have thought that
Carson Pierce 28:52
that would be? Well, I mean, you think about almost anything else that you buy. If you can get that thing in your hands faster, you will pay more for it, right, but not in our work. Like, yeah, it's in the
Chris DuBois 29:02
service industry. No, it's crazy. Okay, I got two more questions for you. First one being, what book do you recommend every agency owner should read?
Carson Pierce 29:14
Yeah, I mean the the correct answer for me, at least, it's up on my shelf. You're gonna grab it first. Software is a science. Yep. So I got my copy somewhere over here. My my boss co-wrote that with Dan Martell and a few other guys. I love it. I like. I'm not just saying that because he pays me to say it. He doesn't really pay me. No, I love it because it's it's part of that process of turning this business into something you can actually like measure and make sense of mathematically. Like I said before, that's only half the story, but I think there's like so much value in there. I just found myself going like, yes, yes, yes. But the book I love the most, and I always recommend. Is unreasonable hospitality. So it's the book that the bear is based on. If you watch the bear, but I think it's like golden for account management or even just anyone who's like in a service type of business in terms of how to treat customers, how to make them feel special, all that stuff. It's such a good book. I loved it.
Chris DuBois 30:23
Yeah, that was so. Both of those really good reads. What I liked about the software as a science, it was like you could tell which chapters Marcel wrote just because it was like, oh, it's actually digestible math. Like I can, I can appreciate this for unreasonable hospitality. Like great book. The setting the table is another really good one. It's like I found so my wife is in the hospitality space and works like helps manage a lot of these like fancier restaurants and stuff. And and so she was reading all of those and so like I picked them up. Like there's a lot that we can pull into like the agency space from this. Yeah, yeah. So I went on a yeah setting
Carson Pierce 31:01
setting the table is yeah. I am. I was in a an Uber with a famous chef in Montreal, and we were talking about the the bear, and we were talking about unreasonable hospitality, and he recommended setting the table. Yeah, it's also a great book.
Chris DuBois 31:16
Yeah, the man, I'm dropping the the author's name, which is terrible. My wife will beat me up for that one. But the founder, like Shake Shack and all those, he was actually I don't remember his name either. The the guy who wrote Unreasonable Hospitality, he was like his mentor through this as well. So it's like you can see all of the dots connecting for like how they got to certain places. Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah. Last question: Where can people find you?
Carson Pierce 31:44
Yeah. So I mean, I work at Parakido. We're at Parakido.com. It's Parakeet with an O at the end, not with a Q I T O. Or if like some people like to look Spanish, you guys should
Chris DuBois 31:56
buy that domain.
Carson Pierce 31:57
Yeah, we probably should. Parakido.com. I'm on LinkedIn. I can, you know, we can set you up the link there as well. And love for people to reach out to me there. If you go to Parakito.com, like we've got a podcast there, tons of stuff. We give out content like crazy. So if you're interested, you can check that out. We have a free toolkit you can download, and there's a link in there if you want to get on a call with me, which I'd be happy to do.
Chris DuBois 32:24
Awesome, and we'll we'll get all those in the show notes. I do want to recommend the toolkit for everybody, especially like we talked earlier, right, about the education being one of those priorities. Like, start with the toolkit; it'll give you that like foundation that you need in order to know what direction to go with everything else. Yeah, I've been promoting that for years, so I'm not going to stop now. Awesome, Carson! Thanks for joining.
Carson Pierce 32:46
Yeah, thank you, Chris.
Chris DuBois 32:52
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai