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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Beard the Lion with Justin Koehn
00:00
All right, Justin, it is so good to have you as a part of the podcast. Thanks so much for being on the show today. I am really looking forward to our conversation. Yes, me too, Chris. Thank you. It is always good to be with you. I'm super excited to be here. Yeah. Well, you guys, Justin is a dear friend of mine. We've known each other for, what is it, Justin, like close to a decade now and think I've been, yeah, and have been in many different places. One of.
00:27
the things. I love so many things about you, but one of the things I love about you is your deep analytical and fascination with old narratives, old stories, old literature, and the way that the old can be made new in how we understand things. And there was something that you came across. I don't remember exactly when it was, but something that you came across. I'd love for you to tell us how and where.
00:56
but a saying that you came across that I wanted you to unpack with us today. So there's your tea up. Where would you like to go with that? Yeah. So, uh, yeah, I discovered this, uh, phrase and really, right. Discovery makes it sound like I found it. It was like this gift, right? Like one of those miraculous gyms that falls in your lap. And the moment you see it, you're like, that is amazing is gold. Right. So
01:26
Uh, so this term that was given to me, uh, is the term to beard the lion, um, and more completely to beard the lion in its den or in its lair. Okay. So you're saying, so beard, like not beard, the beard that grows on your face, not the beer that you drink. Yes. Good. Yes. The beard, so to beard, like as in you have a beard. So the beard of a lion, right, is like the, the hairy mage that hangs from his chin. Yeah.
01:55
Beard it is a term to grab hold of that hair, the beard of his face that hangs down to beard the lion. Okay. Yeah. So before you unpack like what you, what you've discovered, it kind of means how, you said it was a gift. Yeah. How did this come across your desk? The great question. So I was, I was preparing for a teaching that I was giving and I'm looking into things. We're looking at,
02:22
what does it mean to contend with something or to fiercely oppose or contend with it? And when you're contending this idea of coming face to face with a man or a fear or something that you're boldly opposing. So as I was just doing basic word study, all of a sudden this term emerged, came down, it was like to beard the lion. And instead I'm like, oh my gosh, this is
02:52
most awesome bit of poetic line I think I've ever read ever. So immediately I'm like, where did this come from? What does it mean? And so looking back, because in our day and age, beard is a noun, right? It's what you grow on your face. But to beard as a verb, the first usage of that actually is from the late 1500s, like 1598, I think, Shakespeare.
03:21
Shakespeare is the first one recorded to have used that verb in writing. And then a few years later, it shows up in the King James Bible in 1611. And where it shows up is when King David, or as a boy at that time, when he's talking to Saul, Saul is saying, hey, you can't go fight Goliath. You're just a boy. And David says, I have struck down.
03:50
lions and bears to like if they take a lamb I've struck them down but if they rise up again against me I will beard them and smote them on the head and kill them. So it's like the most incredible like you know badass shepherd thing in the world.
04:17
a lion comes in or a bear attacks a sheep, one of his flock, he knocks it out with his sling like with a rock and sling and as he goes up to take the lamb out of its jaws, if it's not dead and rears up against him, he grabs it by the beard and clubs it over the head and kills it, right? And so this term to beard like comes out of this time of like grabbing the beard of like
04:45
the fiercest imaginable opponent, right? And conquering it, right? So, we first see the word to beard in that term, but then, so there's this evolution of that term. So then later the full term to beard the lion shows up in of course, one of the greatest countries on earth, Scottish in Scotland, the Scottish poet Tobias George Smollett
05:14
in one of his poems in 1749 uses a term to beard the lion. And it's the first time in literature that we know of that that term or that I've been able to find that that term shows up to beard the lion. But it's directly referencing, you know, the story of David. Of David again. Yeah. Right. And then a couple of years later, 1808, we have the like the the total package come along. So Walter Scott also.
05:42
Scottish poet and author, of course, he comes up with to beard the lion in its lair or in its den. And in one of his, he's talking about two men confronting each other and one says, I will beard the lion in its lair or in its den, like the fullness of this term in use.
06:08
dates and moments in time and literature and the evolution of all of this. And just to think about back to what you were saying about David in the sense that this is not the first strike. This is not the first struggle. This is after that first struggle in order to fully rescue all that is precious and innocent. If that lion, if that bear rears back up, I will go after it again.
06:38
Yeah, fully. I love the word smite. I will smite it. Mike smited on the head and take it out. And and you're right. Like he is a total badass shepherd. He's not just a shepherd. And I think I think we all kind of know that about David and and the reality that that he's going a second time. And you used to you used a word a moment ago, Justin. That was the word contend. What does that word mean to you?
07:06
to contend with something or someone. Yeah, so to contend, right? Normally with this term, when these amazing Scottish poets are writing it, right? They are talking about confronting, oftentimes another man or in the boldest way. It is a way of describing the most bold, the most brave, right?
07:34
thing that you could do. You're walking into the presence of another really powerful formidable foe. We don't use this term when it's like, oh yeah, that's kids play. I can knock that ball out of the park. It's like, no, you're in the big leagues. You're going up against a formidable foe in this. You're contending with them. And it's this very intimate battle term, this face-to-face.
08:02
You're looking in the eyes of a lion. You're grabbing the most, right? Like right by the jaws, by the teeth, you're grabbing the beard. And so it's just this like rich, rich term of the most incredibly bold striving against that I think I've ever read. So it caught me immediately. Oh, well, when you told me first about this, we were driving.
08:29
in the car, we were headed up to do a retreat together and you were just like, bumbling over with all the energy that we even hear to this day. I mean, this is several months ago that you first told me about this. And man, when you started to tell me about that in the car, I was just like, oh my gosh, this is incredible. This is incredible because it's not just this like literary term. I think it is something that we can actually, as men, begin to
08:58
have some sense of what that could mean in moments of our lives where we, after that first strike, it didn't quite take. After that first movement against something, that first battle with something, and we need to go back for a second shot. And we need to go back and beard the lion to completely finish the job in order for us to
09:25
move forward. And I said the words earlier, like in order for us to take back that which is most valuable and most vulnerable of us, you know, from whatever that foe is. And so I just, I don't know, I just love it. I think you're just awesome in that you even discovered this and I think, you know, all you listeners, I think you can hear Justin's
09:50
just ability to teach and think and critically understand and those kinds of things. Justin, I'm curious, as you have sat with this term to beard the lion in his lair or in his den, what has it meant for you today as a man? How has that like settled into your soul? What does that mean for you? I mean, you're not, neither of us are out there with clubs and facing lions and tending sheep and slingshots, right?
10:20
both of us are just modern day men and we have our jobs and all that. So how has that settled in for you? Yeah. Oh man, Chris, that, that's a good question. So I, first of all, I'm totally with you on that acknowledgement of like, this is, there's several nuances, right? In that term. And the critical one that you point out, right? Is that that first strike was important, but it didn't seal the deal. It did not finish it off. Right? That there is something.
10:50
that needs to be returned to in that thing. There are a lot of places in our faith and our stories that are illuminated by that understanding. The second thing is really the idea that when David does that, he isn't lying hunting. The whole point of this is not, I'm going to go find a trophy and kill it. It's like, no.
11:20
You touched on this, it was like, no, there's something deeply valuable, like a treasure that's held within its jaws. Something that is tender and so valuable and delicate and prized that it has taken that it is worth this kind of contending. This hand-to-hand combat with something that can kill you in order, like it's worth it.
11:48
It's worth contending. Yeah. Right. And I think that part of it, I think is really, really important. And so you ask like, what is the, what is the weight of this in my like current day, my story or the world I'm walking in and it's really helps to illuminate, I think for me, it's a great image of the awareness that as people are walking around, all kinds of stuff has happened in story.
12:18
to us, you know, we talk about things we've grown up with things that happened to us whatever it is and there are really really valuable treasured parts of us that are sometimes in the grip or in the jaws of a formidable formidable thing that you know Maybe it's been struck down and its main power defeated but its teeth are still wrapped around parts of our heart and that
12:49
And that I, when I'm being gripped by the jaws of this, I don't necessarily have the ability to rescue myself. The lamb does not defeat the lion. I need a brother of some kind to enter into this story for that final blow. And it's not like a meek timid entering in, it's like.
13:17
I need someone to seriously come in and contend. On my behalf. And that's such a key distinction. I'm not fighting the lamb. The treasure in there, the truest piece in there is not what I'm contending against. I'm contending against whatever has it in its teeth.
13:45
The thing that has taken hold that is not of the flock, that is not of this kingdom, that is what I am continuing with on behalf of the treasure that is held. Right. So, okay, so let's back up for a second because what you just said is really important, I think, for us to understand that first of all, there is a formidable foe that is out to devour.
14:15
those most precious and vulnerable and tender parts of us. Is that a good way to put that? Yeah. And that comes through how evil is set against us, that comes through how trauma and tragedy visits our lives, that comes through the parts of us that may get hijacked, that may get lost, that may get exiled, the parts of myself that I love, that I hate, the parts that I am
14:45
parts that I'm ashamed of, like all of that is what you're talking about. Yeah. Okay. So, so there is an enemy who is coming for that's part one, person one, person two is that vulnerable part of me. And then person three, which you just named is another brother. Because the lamb cannot rescue itself, which is why the lamb is in the lion's den.
15:12
And, you know, and David is coming into that to rescue that which is vulnerable. And so all of that, I think is a great just kind of framing. So what does that actually look like? How do we what does that look like to do that with a brother, to come after those most vulnerable parts of him that somehow are captured in the jowls of the lion? Yeah. Well, I think that brings up the.
15:39
When I, when I come to one of my brothers or just any, any guy, any person on the street, I don't, I don't see them, right? I don't see that necessarily that distinction between the lion and the lamb in this moment, right? Between the precious and the oppressor or the one that is holding in its jaws. I'm not always instantly aware that that's two separate entities. My experience.
16:08
is the persona that they are putting forward. I experience maybe it's welcoming, maybe there are huge walls put up, it's like don't come within 100 foot of my heart, I will never ever ever let anyone near me. There's all sorts of ways that we put apart. So maybe we're hidden in different ways and we're quietly disengaged and.
16:35
It's just almost impossible to approach those tender places of us. And so that's oftentimes what we see when we're interacting with people is the personas that they're kind of putting up. This personality that they have had to create most instances, right? It's like this needed protective barrier for whatever's happened. Like this was a needed protection that I'm running up against. And so when I'm...
17:03
When I think through to Beard the Line to contend with this force, this line on behalf of a man, it's really this nuanced like I will walk into this man's story. I will not be stopped by the harsh exterior, by the walls that have been created. I'm willing to walk past that and engage something that's deeper.
17:31
because I know that there is something precious that is being held captive in this place, and it can't just rescue itself. And if I let that harshness and the fangs and the bones strewn about the yard, leading up to the lair, like, if I don't have courage to push through some of that, I will never get to the lamb, and then, and that part of him will never be rescued. So there is a piece of when I...
18:00
interact with a guy for the first or the hundredth time to remember, Oh yeah, this posturing, that's not this man. Right? These are defenses sometimes. Say that again. That posturing is not this man. The posturing is not this man. Right? So good. So good. And right. And we posture in so many different ways, right? As men, like we, we, we know we could spot this a mile away.
18:30
The easy ones are the monster truck with a seven foot lift and a pair of brass balls hanging off of the tailgate. But there's so many ways from the recycled wool, very hip, eco-friendly wool shirts that I'm wearing. They can posture in all these different ways of showing our value to the people around us. But ultimately, most of them are like, it is a posture. That's not...
18:59
I am creating this image that I want you to be able to see. And it creates this safe distance that I can hide behind or stay behind that keeps people from that innermost parts. And that curiosity around what that is. So if you're aware that the posturing or you're aware that the the bigness or the smallness or the
19:24
way of engaging, like all those ways that we blow smoke screens and try to keep guys away and not be vulnerable, not be authentic, not be whatever we want to say. Like all of those ways, if we understand that's not actually the guy. But what if we approached other men with a perspective that there is a lair, that there is a lion, and that there is a captured, innocent, vulnerable part of him.
19:55
in that dark cave that cannot rescue himself. And some of that like is, you kind of need to be very gentle and careful as you are entering into those places because that is sacred territory and terrified territory of a man's life. And what if you just had a perspective that that actually exists? Yeah. Yeah. That the posture that you're experiencing is not the man. Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Right. Wow.
20:24
And then there's that piece of that posture. It's like, there probably was something that happened days, years ago, decades ago in that man's story, where he needed to be protective of that part because someone else wasn't, whatever the situation was, right? Right, right. It was a needed covering. Like he needed a posture, he needed protection, he needed armor.
20:51
because what the world was throwing at him, like he was not being spared or protected from that. But what was maybe needed in that moment of survival has now years later become this posture that is completely inauthentic to our true hearts. Yes. And keeps us at a distance from other men and keeps us out of relationship and keeps us out of that deep connection that we all really want. Yes. So, wow.
21:21
Well, Justin, this is, I don't know, like I said in the car when you first told me about it on the way up to that retreat, I am super excited about this. Just the phrase, but then also what that opens up for us as far as our understanding of what is brotherhood. What do we need from other men? How do we sit with and share our stories and even having this awareness that, that I have a story and there is a lion and there is an innocent captured part that I need another guy to come.
21:50
help me with. That is not an acknowledgement of weakness. It is an acknowledgement that some other formidable foe has entered my story and I need the collection, the camaraderie of men to come alongside and be with me in the midst of that to rescue that vulnerable part. So man, I love it. I love it. I think we could talk for hours on this and there's so many different...
22:20
avenues that we could go. But I just want to say thank you. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. Is there anything that you would want to say to a man who is wondering, listening to this right now and wondering, is there a lion? Is there a lamb? Yeah. Oh, such great questions. So the, I think the lions that we see in other people, like I said, are
22:48
They don't look like lions. They look like fronts, they look like disguises, masks, posture, and all these different things, right, that we're walking past. And a lot of that is the outside of that layer, right? That line. I think, and this is like what I've kind of come to over a course of discovery of doing, trying to be, do restorative work in relationships with men, is that primarily that lion is one of shame.
23:19
I think primarily the line is one of shame. And the thing that it has that is so precious in its jaws that it does not want to release, the thing that's worth going into another man's story in that den to release is actually his truest identity as a son of God. As the beloved, beloved son. And the glory.
23:47
of the image that he bears and what goodness could come to the world if that was released, if that was free, what unbelievable treasure that would be to the people around him, to this world. Right? And so, I mean, Chris, honestly, I mean, that is something that like you had asked earlier, like what's going on today? How's the strikingness? Like, man, even this morning.
24:16
just waking up, I knew that you and I were going to talk. And I didn't connect the dots at all, but as I'm waking up, just memories of mistakes I've made, even as a kid or a teenager, we're just coming back and just felt like waves of shame. And they're in areas that other brothers have come in, specifically spoken truth to, help to release me from.
24:43
But still that old attack comes back of like, no, this is the shame of this whatever. And I was like, wait a minute, that is exactly the route, right? Is that shame will take hold of what is precious of the fact that your identity, there's not something wrong with you. The reverse of that is like you are actually a son of the king. And at all costs that...
25:14
is being attacked, right? And that's the thing that needs to be taken out by evil in this world. Oh, so good. So good, very current. Yeah, for me as well, for me as well. So Justin, thank you. Thanks for joining today. Thanks for being here and for sharing with the world. Resurrecting, if you will, this phrase from ancient Scotland and Shakespeare to beard the lion in his den. I just love it. So yes, thank you so much.
25:43
Absolutely Chris. Thanks. Always enjoy it. So excited to see where, where this takes us where it takes guys is they're processing that so yeah, it's a gift. Awesome. Well, thanks.