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How to Humanist asks life’s questions big and small with the help of brilliant humans along the way.
FISH: This is Fish Stark, Executive Director of the American Humanist Association. I'm getting married this summer, and we could not be more excited. But weddings can be a lot. On top of dealing with caterers and photographers, it just feels challenging to plan a ceremony that both honors our humanist beliefs and my fiancée's Jewish culture and traditions. There's no script for something like that. That's why my fiancée and I are getting help from a humanist celebrant, our friend Greg Epstein, who also happened to be the first-ever guest on this podcast.
If you're preparing to celebrate your own love story but you're not excited about a traditional religious celebration, you should consider working with a humanist celebrant like Greg. The Humanist Society can connect you with professional humanist celebrants who are excited to help you and your partner craft a ceremony that reflects your unique story, background, and values. Humanist celebrants are frequently sought out for interfaith, intercultural, and same-sex marriages, but they are available to everyone, and they can legally perform marriages in all fifty states.
If you want to explore what it means to invite a humanist celebrant into your wedding, visit thehumanistsociety.org. We've got people who can help.
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SHAY: It is another Monday at How to Humanist, and today happens to be Memorial Day. I'm Shay Leonia, your host and work-in-progress human being. This Memorial Day feels different because yet again in my lifetime, we are in another war that we should not be in. There are people around this country that are dealing with a very real Memorial Day of grieving. It's not all JCPenney sales and hot dogs on the grill. It's a very difficult day for a lot of people right now. So our thoughts are going out to you all. Trust me, we are doing our damnedest to do what we can. As always, if you wanna join the fight at the American Humanist Association, please visit the link in the show notes to find out how you can advocate with us.
That being said, I do wanna prep you for this episode. It's gonna be a unique one, and it might test you — not in a knowledge sense, but in an emotional sense. I have dared, and kudos to her, but I have dared to bring on my bestie. That's right, my bestie Cheryl, who I have been besties with since 2009, and she is a Christian woman.
She has known me through all of my ventures throughout spirituality and my religiousness and now my atheism into humanism, into cultural Judaism, and she's been there for all of it. I am just really, really grateful to have a friend like her.
And the reason why I'm doing this episode is because for those of you who are dabbling in the idea of, oh, I might wanna become a humanist, but how am I gonna deal with having religious friends still — I wanna show you by this conversation that it still can be done, and you don't have to censor yourself.
What I will say is don't step in the dog shit that your mind is gonna want you to do. In a knee-jerk reaction, you're probably gonna want to defend against Cheryl talking about her relationship to the Bible or to certain Bible stories or to Jesus or to church. Whatever it is, I'm gonna ask you to bite your tongue for a moment and think about the main reason why you are gonna listen to this podcast.
I'm gonna set an intention with you right now. If you are going to listen to this episode, it's in the interest of gaining perspective, patience, understanding, deepening your empathy — something of that realm, even if it's just 1% more from listening to this episode. I want you to open your mind to the possibility that you're gonna be surprised by what Cheryl has to say, because I'm not out here being friends with numbskulls. Can you trust me with that? If this is your first time meeting me, hello. Please give me your trust, at least for this episode.
And then afterwards, please leave a review for the podcast, because this show — we're only on episode 15, people. We still have a long way to go, and we want people to be able to get ahold of this podcast, and that can't happen unless you are sharing these episodes. Whatever gets you to share an episode, go for it. I'm excited to hear your thoughts on this one. This is gonna be a juicy one.
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SHAY: I have my AirPods charged. Yes. Living in heaven.
CHERYL: All right. Be honest, were they charged before I reminded you to charge them?
SHAY: But what is your phone charged at right now?
CHERYL: My phone is at 46%.
SHAY: Oh, look at you. What will you do with all of that battery?
CHERYL: What will I do? What is the world coming to?
SHAY: Oh, goodness. Okay. So you are my bestie. Is that factual, ma'am, on the stand?
CHERYL: Yes, that is factual. I am your bestie.
SHAY: Yeah. Okay. So we met in 2009?
CHERYL: Yes, May of 2009. I don't know why I remember my start date.
SHAY: Yeah, why do you remember the month?
CHERYL: I don't know. Maybe that's just the HR in me.
SHAY: That's why I live my life in start dates.
CHERYL: May 19th to be exact.
SHAY: Stop it. You know the date?
CHERYL: Yeah, May 19th, 2009.
SHAY: Was that when you laid eyes on me? I don't remember when we met. I don't have any memories of you not being there. Like, I don't remember life before you, you know.
CHERYL: Aw. There we go. Did I save it?
SHAY: Yeah, you did. Yes. But May 2009. Do you remember where it started?
CHERYL: I think it was just like all of us hanging out and doing stuff. I think you were kind of the ringleader for that, like us going to the karaoke bars. I feel like somebody had a connect and we were like, oh, let's do that.
SHAY: But you were my soccer mom already by then.
CHERYL: Yeah, 'cause I believed in you.
SHAY: Aw. So you're making it sound like a legit karaoke lounge. We were going to the Hackensack VFW.
CHERYL: No, it wasn't much.
SHAY: It was a predominantly Black auntie, uncle space.
CHERYL: Yeah, it was definitely unc and auntie. That's where we would go after work, after hours. It was giving WBLS Saturday evening like —
SHAY: Quiet Storm crowd.
CHERYL: Quiet Storm crowd. And then here comes these young whippersnappers, ranging in age from like 18 to 25, coming in there to sing on their karaoke night.
SHAY: Yep. And I recorded the first one of me going up and asking the DJ, hey Mr. DJ, can I sing SWV You're the One? And all of a sudden you hear once I start hitting the first note, you hear somebody in the crowd going, oh! Okay, Teena Marie.
CHERYL: And you were in the background doing the same thing, and you've been my cheerleader ever since.
SHAY: Yes. I remember when you told me you did music and I was like, okay, all right. And then we — I'll never forget, we sat in the car. You finally let us listen to it and I was like —
CHERYL: And not only did you sing, you wrote the song.
SHAY: Yes. Yeah. Wow, what a throwback. But do you remember when I performed in Brooklyn and it was at — oh God, what was it? It was a real bad spot. It was so bad that somebody in the audience ordered Chinese food.
CHERYL: Wait, was I there?
SHAY: Yes.
CHERYL: But anyway, to your point, you were always supporting me. And if I was gonna be performing at a spot where the audience members are ordering Chinese food delivery —
CHERYL: I'm still there shouting you out, screaming your name.
SHAY: Yeah, and this was even before DoorDash days. So then fast-forward — I wanna share this, because I have yet to share my story about getting hired at the AHA, and I figured having you here would be the perfect opportunity. And you are pivotal to that story.
For everyone listening, I had been in survival mode most of my adult life. I was working a nonprofit — that'll be another story for another day — for a few years, living in Philly. And then when I left that job I spent two years freelancing, and I was very fortunate to be up to my neck in clients and client work. But I was stressed, and I was going to the coffee shop, my favorite coffee shop, every single day practically.
And there was this one day that I was just really, really overwhelmed. I was also interviewing for this job at the AHA. I was in the middle of the interview process. I had no idea if I was gonna get it or not. And so this one morning I'm at the coffee shop and I text you and I was like, Cheryl, where are you? I could really use a hug. Can you stop by the coffee shop? And you were like, oh, I'm so sorry, I can't make it there today, I'm busy. And I was like, oh, okay. And you were like, but are you gonna be all right? And I was like, yeah, I'll be fine.
And so I went back to catching up on whatever client work I was just never gonna catch up on because I was drowning in it. And then all of a sudden an hour goes by and I see that I missed a call from my now supervisor Court. I step outside, I call them back. Court is not like a very animated person, so I had no idea which way this was gonna go. And Court was like, hey, I guess you know why I'm calling. So I'm like, oh God.
CHERYL: Oh, I remember that.
SHAY: And so I'm bracing my sphincter to be let down, and Court was like, yeah, I'm just calling to offer you the job. And I'm standing on the street by myself and my jaw drops, and I literally scream. And I start jumping up and down, and cars are driving past and they're honking their horns and they're clapping for me. They don't know what happened, but they see me being happy and they're just happy for me. People are coming out of their storefronts because they're like, is she okay?
CHERYL: What's going on?
SHAY: And then I think I called you, but either you rushed me off the phone or didn't pick up.
CHERYL: I don't think I picked up.
SHAY: Yeah. And then I call my sister. She didn't pick up. And I was like, damn it, nobody's picking up when I need them to pick up. And I am like, this is the biggest news of my life and nobody's answering the phone. And so I turn around to step back into the coffee shop, and you bust open the door to the coffee shop from inside the coffee shop. And mind you, the coffee shop is not like just a hop, skip from our house. It's like a half hour away.
And you had driven the half hour to come see me the moment you heard that I needed a hug. You had no idea that I was gonna get good news. Court's not gonna call you.
CHERYL: No, I had no idea. But I knew that you needed a hug, and I knew that you sounded very stressed on the phone, and that's not your usual personality. So if I could be there to give you a hug, I can do that. But it turned out to be even better because that's when I found out you got the job.
SHAY: And everybody's looking at us like, what is going on?
CHERYL: Yeah, 'cause then we started jumping up and down and you started crying —
SHAY: And you started crying. And then I remember I stopped to ask you if you liked my new jeans.
CHERYL: Yes. Wait, are those the ones you got already altered from Old Navy?
SHAY: Yeah.
CHERYL: Yeah.
SHAY: And I just — it was so special to me that you were there for that moment. And you were like, girl, your whole life is about to change.
CHERYL: Everything is gonna change. It is.
SHAY: And it has changed. My whole life has changed. So yeah, it was just magical that you were there. Thank you.
CHERYL: Of course. Anytime. Always.
SHAY: And now you're about to start a whole new chapter.
CHERYL: I am. A whole new chapter in my life, yes. Do you wanna share?
SHAY: Um, I'll share — well, as we know, I'm in school. My field is in HR, learning and development specifically. I started doing different little hodgepodge internships and little jobs here and there. And I'm also a mother, so I have stress as well, going through a life transition. But very fortunately, someone reached out to me from one of my classes and was like, hey, I think you'd be an amazing fit for this position if you're interested. And I was like, all right, let me shoot my shot. It's for a big company, but I thought this would be an amazing opportunity to see what an interview process would look like.
I went for the first one. I was very chill and relaxed, and I think maybe too chill. Long story short, I kept getting called back for the interviews. And recently they offered me the position, so I will be a global talent development specialist, getting to do exactly what I've always wanted to do. This is literally my dream career job, what I'm going to school for, so I'm just extremely excited to start next week.
SHAY: Are we allowed to share where it is?
CHERYL: I haven't made it LinkedIn official yet.
SHAY: Oh, okay. No problem. It's up to you.
CHERYL: NBC Universal. So I'll be working at Rockefeller Center. 30 Rock.
SHAY: Oh, the peacock.
CHERYL: The peacock, yes.
SHAY: You get your own jingle. I'm so excited. This has been a lifelong dream of yours, and I'm just really excited for this next chapter.
CHERYL: So am I.
SHAY: Yay. So the reason why I've been dying to have this conversation with you is because not only are you my bestie, but we both have this very healthy, emotionally intelligent relationship that takes a lot of care with one another. And I wanted people to get a sense — they're not gonna get a sense in the first 10 minutes — about how much we love each other.
If they could understand, for me, I think one of my biggest reasons for being an atheist is the fact that I wake up every morning and cannot find attraction for you beyond the tingles that you give me every now and then, because it would be so much more convenient for us to just —
CHERYL: Yeah. It would be convenient.
SHAY: And that's my proof. But seriously, our friendship is my litmus test for relationships as a whole. If you can't treat me as good as my friends treat me, then what am I doing with you? Because our friendships are so solid and you all care for me so much, and it's reciprocal.
I want people to understand that going into this, because there are gonna be people listening to this who are probably thinking like, oh well, if they don't think the same way as me, then I need to toss them aside. And I wanted to bring you on because I can't do life without you, and I wouldn't want to. And I want people to understand that as a humanist, you don't have to.
So I wanted them to be able to witness what it is like to have a humanist Jew and a Christian woman walk into a bar — on a podcast.
CHERYL: Your hair looks great, by the way.
SHAY: Thank you. You look wonderful.
CHERYL: Thank you.
SHAY: So yeah, I don't know. Where do you wanna go from here? I feel like we should — ooh, let me think about this.
CHERYL: I love how you're talking like we're talking about makeup tips.
SHAY: I know. I know. We're about to talk about theology. But like, I'm literally thinking, what would Cheryl do? Even though you're right in front of me. I feel like what you would do is ask what do we each need in order for this to feel like a protected conversation. Is there anything we need?
CHERYL: I think just — for me, I want to say I'm an open book, but I don't know how open I am in terms of that. Okay. But I think we do a pretty good job of understanding the territories. You're clear, but I also understand and respect the fact that you're still navigating what it is to be a humanist. This is why you have this podcast — you're learning about the space, you're trying different things on, you're experiencing different things, you're bringing people with all different perspectives. I think that's what I love absolutely most about you, is that you're always learning. You're open to who that person is and what makes them that person, and you don't judge.
So I think in this space it feels safe. I don't know about your viewers or your listeners, but I can't control that. That's outside of my control. I think how I show up in my faith, you have always respected that. And if we could just continue with that, for me, that will work.
SHAY: Awesome. What do you need from me?
CHERYL: I feel like the same. I know through and through that you're not a judgmental person, and I would love for you to ask honest questions bravely.
SHAY: Okay. Am I gonna regret asking that? All right. How should we start this? Is there anything that's been on your mind that you've been wanting to ask?
CHERYL: As a matter of fact — I'm just kidding.
SHAY: What's been interesting is that you've seen me through navigating my relationships where I was wanting to become a better Jew and closer to God, and now being somebody who is a non-believer but still believing in people and all of that. Has that been hard for you, as somebody who is a believer?
CHERYL: I wouldn't say necessarily hard. I'm not gonna sit here and lie — there are moments where I'll have a raised eyebrow. Not necessarily questioning, but I've also put myself in a space of — it's not for me to judge or to go deep dive in. Because at the end of the day, my biggest belief in all of this is as long as you're not harming anyone, you're not harming yourself, you're not being rude, and you're still being a great person and you're showing up in the world, that's all I ask of you.
But if you're out here being disrespectful with people, shutting people out, judging other people for what they believe in — even if it gets you to the same goal of just being a good person — then I would definitely have questions.
But there are moments where, as a Christian, as a believer, I view it as a God moment. I guess because of the establishment of our relationship, especially you being Jewish and me being a Christian from the jump, we already had different beliefs. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for our sins. You believe that, in the Jewish community, they are still seeking the Messiah. So we already had that relationship, and I think we did a really good job of respecting that for each other and also asking questions.
As I get deeper into my faith — because I'm not the type of person who will just leave it at, oh, I believe in Jesus because someone else told me to. I built my own relationship with God. But I had to build my own relationship with God, and that's how I got back to the church. I wasn't always somebody who was in the church. My grandmother didn't go to church. She went when she was younger and when she moved to New Jersey she couldn't find a church community she connected with — she felt like they were fake. So she continued to just work through her own faith and build her own relationship.
And I think watching that, watching how she built a relationship with God that was special to herself and still poured into others — that's what I took away from it. I love having my church community. I'm very grateful that I have a beautiful church that I go to where I absolutely love everybody there.
But to answer your question, I know that this is a journey that you have to go on and figure out for yourself, and I respect that for you. Any way I can be of support, I still pray for you. You know I pray for you. I'll tell you straight out, I'm gonna pray for you right now and you'll receive it. You don't reject me for it because you know that's my way of pouring love into you and watching out for you.
So I think me just recognizing that this is your journey — I can't tell you how to walk it, just like I wouldn't want you to tell me how to walk it. As long as you're safe and you're doing right by others, I love you, and that's all that matters at the end of the day.
SHAY: Is the prayer or journey ever a hope that I will find my way back to God?
CHERYL: That's between you and God. Nothing to do with me. That's how I view it. There are moments where I hope that you recognize that there is something bigger than us, but I'm still on that journey as well of recognizing what bigger than us even means.
Even in my relationship with God, I believe that God is almighty and He's everywhere in us. And I will be honest — I'm really gonna tell on myself, please pastor don't kick me out of church — there was a moment where I wasn't in a church. I still believed in God, I still believed in all those things. I still knew that God was out there and looking for me, but I wasn't connected. I felt like I was still living in a space of wanting to do things the way I wanted to do them. And you know me, I'm a control freak.
I got into a program — I don't like how I got into it, but I got into a program that walked me through in such a watered down, simple way of looking at what God seeks from you, and that's just to be a good person and do right for others. Literally just be a good person to other people. And in this program I was part of, there were people from all walks of life, all different religions, and we all still carried that same message of just be a good person. Do the right thing. Do God's work and do it well. And I was like, wow, that's really simple.
So then when I got into my church community and I'm hearing the message of Jesus, I struggled with that at first. I really did. I went to Catholic school, and I still struggled with the concept of the Holy Spirit and Jesus being the Son of God and what the Trinity really looks like. But one thing I did was I read the Bible for myself, because I think a lot of times we go to church, social media, wherever it is, and we receive the message through other people's interpretations, and there are just so many clips and we miss the whole entire message.
Once I did that, I started building my relationship with Jesus. And right now I'm on my path of building my relationship with the Holy Spirit. But I share that to say — again, this is my journey. And at the end of the day, my message is just to be a good person to other people. I think you and I both align on that very strongly.
However you get there — there are moments where I'm like, I do hope that she recognizes there is something bigger than her out there. But when we had the conversation and you said to me, humanity — cool. If that's the big message and that's what keeps your heart flowing and loving other people, I'm here for it. Why not?
SHAY: So what is it about there having to be something bigger than ourselves, rather than it just being okay that it's just each other and that it's on the same playing field?
CHERYL: Oh my God, you're about to make me start quoting Bible verses. There is a couple of amazing Bible verses that speak to this around the mindset of putting basically your all into people. We are all people who can change our minds, influenced, seeking something better — money, relationships, love. And especially somebody like me who's sensitive to that, where I wanna be a good person, I wanna help people. I recognize that sometimes I was feeding too much of myself into people and letting people guide me and influence me on how I see things, how I show up, what I do, how I speak. I recognized for myself it wasn't healthy for me. I wasn't aligned. It's almost like the company that you keep.
SHAY: Oh, so you think that if we stay on the same playing field, there's too high a risk of us being fallible?
CHERYL: Got it. Okay. Got you.
SHAY: Yes. And then people change, right? I can easily see you have changed tremendously in all the best ways — God bless you — in your growth. But then we've seen with our own eyes people change not for the good, where they started off in a very healthy spot, and then you watch them grow, and you're like, wow, I really was for this person, I really did believe in this person, I was hoping for the best, and I really was fooled.
Once I finally read the Bible for myself, I realized God's word is the same and is consistent across the board. That doesn't change. People can change, but that hasn't changed one bit. And if I can align myself to that always first before I align myself to people, I'll be good. That's how I've been basically living my life — okay, what is this for me? How should I show up in this situation? How does it align to my faith? And does it or does it not? And that's how I make my decisions moving forward. So that's why for me it is important to believe in something bigger than myself, because I just get caught up.
SHAY: Got you. So okay, I wanna ask you something that's just coming to mind now but it is important. We should probably discuss this. What's gonna happen one day when the girls have questions about what Auntie Shay believes in? Because right now they think it's all cute and everything — they say shalom to me about being Jewish — but one day they're gonna wanna know, probably once they're older and have more fully formed minds to understand. What might that conversation look like?
CHERYL: Probably go to Auntie Shay and ask her. No, I'm just kidding. That's a conversation you have. But I guess one thing — I mean, you know, and I'll share — is that I really want my daughters to build their own beliefs. And for me, the foundation for that is through their relationship with God and the church and community. But at the forefront, like I said earlier, is just being a good person and treating people well. And that's kind of what we measure it against.
Hey, Auntie Shay believes in humanity, or that's where her faith comes in — the greater good of people. Doesn't that sound familiar? That aligns with us. How she gets there, what she does, that's on her, and that's between her and her creator. What you do is between you and your creator. But we're not here to judge people, because that doesn't align to who we are as people. We're just here to be a good person on this earth and support others.
SHAY: I think my concern would be to imply that I believe I would have a creator, because I don't believe that. And I wouldn't want to imply to them or sway them into thinking that I have a substitute for that. I want them to know the truth behind it, and I think that description you gave is perfect, but I don't want to mislead them in that sense.
And I think a lot of atheists might feel like — almost in the same way after speaking to Taylor in the Satanist episode — that suddenly if a Christian were to explain this in this type of circumstance, it's almost like, oh no, this person they've grown up loving and admiring, Auntie Shay, oh no, she's gonna burn in hell for eternity because she doesn't believe in God. And it's like, I don't want them to think that or to be concerned about me.
Now, I know that you don't raise your girls that way, thank goodness, because I don't know if we could have a friendship if that was your belief system. But I'm also very concerned about what they might think if they were to find out, what, she doesn't believe in that? And I would love to be able to have a conversation about what that looks like, but it does leave a lot of questions for me.
CHERYL: And yes, to your point, I don't do the whole fire and brimstone you're gonna burn in hell if you don't repent. Maybe I'm not there yet in my phase, but I classify myself as a unique Christian. There are things where my viewpoint of Jesus might be completely different than everybody else's and what he would do if he was walking on this earth right now.
But I think my youngest one made a comment about the devil, and it was the first time I ever heard her mention the devil.
SHAY: Really?
CHERYL: And she was like — she referred to him as a fallen angel, which I was like, what are you watching? Six years old, by the way, everyone listening.
SHAY: Yeah.
CHERYL: And I was like, what are you watching on YouTube that has you knowing that the devil is a fallen angel? And then she made a comment about him wanting to be like God and us being made in His image and being jealous. But she didn't look at it from the point of, oh, he's gonna burn in hell or he runs hell. It was more so, why can't he just get along with everybody? Like, why can't he figure it out and get along with everybody, and then maybe it won't be that big of a problem.
So again, I'm raising my daughters to respect what other people believe in. Auntie Shay loves you, she loves people, and she's always trying to do the right thing to make the world a better place. We don't need to question how she got there. That's not for us, and we can respect that for her.
And I think also on the flip side, I really do appreciate — knowing how I'm raising my children and you respecting that — so if they put their hand on you and say, Auntie Shay, I'm gonna pray for you, I don't see you being like, oh no, I'm not gonna take that. You respect that and you value that. You know that's just their heart and how they pour into you.
We don't really have, I don't think we've had a full conversation around what happens afterwards. It'll be interesting when that time comes if that question comes up. I can see my children going through a whole rollercoaster of feelings around religion. I could see Lily coming back as a Buddhist. I can see all that happening, and I will still love her all the same. And I think it's just absolutely amazing that she has me and she has you, both of them have us, to show that there are just so many different versions of this, and we will be there to support them through the process.
SHAY: Truly. I mean, we were talking about this — it's so funny, I'm gonna give the example of the nails. The other day I sent you — because we go to the same nail salon now, and that's your fault — I sent you my Pinterest board of the nail designs, and they were all these neon funky colors. And you always get these very classy designs. And I can always identify a look that's gonna look gorgeous on you, and you can always identify a look that's gonna look super funky on me. And we have such an appreciation for those designs while recognizing that they probably don't represent us, but they perfectly suit the other person.
And I think that so beautifully embodies who we are as individuals. And the fact that your girls get to grow up with both of us as besties — I get to be the Auntie Shay that they can see this other human being as. Because I didn't grow up with my mom having a bestie in the picture, so I didn't get to see what the alternative option is for somebody to live their life as. And they get to see — not that I'm trying to be like, hey, you don't have to be like your mommy, you're amazing, clearly — but I just think it's so cool that they get to see this random woman with blue hair and piercings in her face while getting to see their classy mom, and getting to see that there are examples of different people, both women doing different things and living life the way that they want to.
Your belief system, the way that you have chosen to live your Christianity, has not impeded upon that. And that's why I think we gel so well. Your belief system has not infringed upon our ability to continue our friendship.
CHERYL: Yeah, no, and I wholeheartedly agree. I think that's a perfect example. For the girls, I just want them to be able to respect people and respect their wishes. And sometimes I'll even say that to myself — I'll see something on Instagram or TikTok and I'm like riled up. Oh yeah, let me put my two cents in the comments. And then I put it down and I'm like, this isn't for me. This message, this video was not directed towards me. It's not a space that I need to be in right now. So I received the message, I don't agree with it, I don't need anybody to know I don't agree with it. Let me just keep it moving respectfully.
And I think that's what I'm trying to teach my daughters — we don't have to agree with everything, but we don't have to fight on everything. And if it's a space that just doesn't align with our values, it's okay to walk away from it respectfully. You don't have to argue with it.
I think that's where I get frustrated — when I as a Christian will open up and say, this is what I believe in, I have faith, or I'll make a comment like, oh, God bless you, and it's, oh, I don't believe in that. And it's all right, cool, if you don't believe in that, perfectly fine. But for you to get all riled up around it — you believe in something. You feel like I just spit in your face or something. You believe something just happened to you for you to get riled up like that. And that's where my frustration comes in if I ever get frustrated around it.
But like I said, I just raise my children to be themselves. Be true to themselves. Try on things, see if it fits. If it doesn't, it's okay to toss it off. Like I think I told you, when I took them to the musical and I didn't realize how progressive and woke it was going to be, and my daughter was like, is that a boy or a girl? And I said, it doesn't make a difference. They look fabulous, and that's all that matters at the end of the day.
SHAY: Was she like —
CHERYL: She's like, yeah, I really like their jeans. And I was like, I love their hair, and their makeup is snatched, and that's all that matters. Just kind of redirecting — that's that person's decision, and we don't have to question it. We're looking at who they are as a person versus whatever gender or however they show up in the world.
SHAY: Yeah. And I think, like, going back to your thing about the frustrations — you are very open to conversations. You're better than me when it comes to that. Way better than me, miles and miles better than me when it comes to being receptive to having hard conversations. Because you're so good at listening and receiving people for how they honestly feel, especially when it's done respectfully and calmly. I am not. I don't wanna hear shit. And you know that about me.
CHERYL: But like you said, you're somebody who is very open to learning and doing better. As you learn more, you do better. I think that's the thing where you're just like, if they would just tell me, I will make note. It's just if only people knew — they don't have to judge you based off of the fact that you are a Christian. They should have the opportunity to get to know you and to know that they can talk to you.
SHAY: Yeah. But I think a lot of that deals with going down that rabbit hole of church hurt and being burned by people they trusted in the church. And can you blame them?
CHERYL: No, not at all. Hence why I said how I got into this was through my relationship with God — just me and God in a room talking to each other versus having these other influences. But I think what really helped me to be in a space of listening and wanting to hear other people's sides was the same respect that I want as well. Not to change everybody over, but — I'm gonna sound so cliché — what would Jesus do in the moment?
I tell you all the time, I believe Jesus was a humanist. From my learnings and my teaching, Jesus wasn't hanging out with just his Jewish people. There was one story in the Bible where he was having dinner with tax collectors, which back then was like, oh my gosh — people who turned on the Jewish community, prostitutes, thieves, all these different people were at this dinner. And the rabbis came by and seen him and were like, why are you sitting here having dinner with these horrible people that go and sin against God? And Jesus said to them, is it not the sick that need a doctor? They're looking at him like, you're supposed to be a rabbi and you're sitting here having this dinner with them. And he's like, but why not? Why would I not take this opportunity to get to know them and let them get to know me?
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[SHAY interjects: In the podcast that we recorded together, Cheryl said Jesus wasn't hanging out with just his blank people, and I can't tell from her accent if she said Jew people or Druid. So I called her to find out.]
SHAY: I probably said neither. That's why I was wondering, like, why I gotta call you and figure this out. Um, okay. I mean, I can just repeat what I was sharing. What I was alluding to is —
CHERYL: What is the word you said?
SHAY: I don't know. Hold on. I'ma play it for you so you can hear that I'm not crazy.
CHERYL: I'm like, the tax collectors —
RECORDING: Wasn't hanging out with just his Jew people.
CHERYL: Oh, maybe I did say Jew people. Oh, I get it. Okay. Sorry. I think I remember because I was talking about — what was it called? Did you say Jew people?
SHAY: I did say Jew people. Because what I was trying to get to was — oh my God. What do they call us? Um —
CHERYL: Do you Jew people call us — um —
SHAY: Goyim? God. Oh no. Um —
CHERYL: What? There's a whole other word?
SHAY: It's Yiddish. There's a word? Yes. Oh my gosh. If you're not Jewish in the Bible, you were considered a — why can't I think today? Gentile?
CHERYL: Gentile. Thank you. Look at you knowing stuff. So yeah, that's what I guess I was referring to. So yeah. Heard. Okay. You can leave it in if you want, or you can take it out.
SHAY: No, this is perfect. However you think it's gonna be received. I'm totally leaving this in. Thank you for clarifying.
CHERYL: I was like, why are we recording? Like, what the fuck?
SHAY: Yeah, I needed clarity. All righty. Thank you.
CHERYL: You're welcome. Bye.
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Jesus was out talking to the Gentiles, people who were not of the Jewish religion, and it was such an uproar. And he's like, I wanna get to know these people. I wanna know their heart. And I was like, that's the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. I just wanna get to know your heart, and I just wanna know you as a person and have a better understanding.
Some of the most beautiful relationships I've built were with people that I didn't agree with, but because I said, listen, I'm not here to fight you on it, I just wanna have a better understanding of who you are and where you're coming from — and we were actually able to have an open conversation. And then they say it themselves, like, no one's ever actually listened to me. Everybody always fights me on it. I'm not gonna fight you on it. That's not what I'm here for. I wanna get to know you, and I wanna know what makes you you.
SHAY: Yeah. Can I ask you — I can anticipate that some of our listeners are gonna be curious — if hypothetically you were not a believer, where would you feel that you would have your moral compass from? Would you feel like you would still innately have a moral compass? Or do you feel like it solely comes from belief?
CHERYL: Fantastic question. I feel like I've always had a moral compass. I guess it's kind of hard to say, because like I said, I grew up with religion, going to Catholic school, and my grandmother waking up at 3:30 in the morning, praying loud, cover the house in the blood of Jesus.
But I always felt like there was just this something burning inside of me. And I would do everything else except slow down and pray or read the Bible. I know it sounds very corny, but that's just what worked for me. And literally I would open up a page and it'd be the right answer. So I think my moral compass has always been inside of me, but I think it's always been driven by my faith.
Like, I can't see myself leaning on anything else because I've done it before and it doesn't work. I was in a relationship for way too long because I was leaning on the belief that someone else was going to do the right thing. But for me, what has worked is recognizing that my path is set straight by God.
SHAY: I've been asking you all the questions. What do you got for me? Anything?
CHERYL: Okay. Walk me through your opinion on being an atheist.
SHAY: All right. Your time is up.
CHERYL: I'm just kidding. Oh, I was like —
SHAY: I'm just kidding. Okay. Wait. My opinion on being an atheist? What do you mean?
CHERYL: Your definition of it, in your opinion. Because you mentioned that a couple of times. Is that what you identify as now — an atheist humanist? Like how you're a Baptist Christian, how do you — what is it?
SHAY: I tell people that I am a humanist Jew, meaning that I'm culturally Jewish, and that when it comes to what I believe in — humanism, meaning that I believe in people — I don't believe in God. So therefore that would be the component where I'm technically an atheist. Atheist just meaning not believing in God.
CHERYL: Okay. And so what does believing in people mean to you? Because people have their failures.
SHAY: It means that I believe in — like how we were talking about that solid line across rather than vertical — I believe in one another to show up for each other, rather than looking to a hierarchy or a book or something bigger than myself in order for us to be better or for us to do better or for us to leave this earth better than we found it.
CHERYL: Okay. So then from that, how does one align themselves? Because take the earth as it is today. There's so much happening in the world, and especially with you being Jewish — everything that's happening with Palestine and Israel. And you have one take on it, and your family has another take on it. And then you have Palestinians who have their view on it, and everybody just thinks that they're right and they're doing the right thing. Everybody's either entitled to this or, whoa, this is really messed up, why are you guys doing this? From a humanist standpoint, if everybody thinks that they're doing the right thing and yet it's still making a huge mess, what do you align yourself to? Because for me I align myself to my higher power and the word, and God's word, which levels it out. So in this instance, what does the humanist do?
SHAY: So are you asking what is the humanist stance on how we align with something like Israel-Palestine?
CHERYL: Not necessarily that. I was using that as an example. But like when we talk about being on the same playing field as people, what do you align yourself to to say we're all doing the right thing? Because if I have my view of the right thing versus your view, and now just to do the right thing you just blew up my country —
SHAY: So the only time that I think that the hierarchical question is going to come into play is, does it lead to the betterment of humankind and humanity? If yes, then stop, drop and roll — like that kind of thing. So to me, killing hundreds of thousands of people — is that helping humanity? Probably not. So that's pretty much how you answer that question.
CHERYL: Okay. What about one person? That's leading that charge on killing a hundred thousand people. Where does that stand?
SHAY: Oh my God, you're getting into philosophy now. I went to a performing arts school. Don't do this to me. Ask me about George and Ira Gershwin.
But — so humanism does not believe that we have the right to judge that somebody's offenses deserve for them to be killed, because we believe in anyone's right to reform. We believe in human beings' ability to change. We believe in their ability to right their wrongs. And we also see the danger that can be caused by anyone being able to pass judgment on somebody else and grading their offenses to deem it worthy of exterminating them. So we do not agree with the killing of Charlie Kirk or the death penalty, any of that kind of stuff.
CHERYL: Yes. Is that written somewhere? Like, you believe that, but there are just so many different people. Do they all feel the same way?
SHAY: I don't know if it's written anywhere. I would have to ask Greg, Mr. Humanist himself. But I mean, what you just shared with me is literally Christianity or my faith as well as a Christian. People can reform. People make mistakes, and they can be a better person if they choose to.
CHERYL: It's just in my case, I get my guidance from God, and you're like, hey, we just align with people. Was it good? Yeah, that flow chart.
SHAY: Yeah, the flow chart.
CHERYL: So, but I guess also looking at it from the standpoint, there are not so great Christians. Why is it so hard to find more Christians like you? Why do you have to be a unique Christian? Why can't there be more Christians like you?
SHAY: I have to give a shout-out to my church. I have a really cool church community where they are very open to the idea of just be a good person and do good by people. I think I shared that with you, like, when I first got there, I was still waiting for the shoe to drop. I was waiting for somebody to be rude and disrespectful or call somebody out, but I have yet to experience that.
But I think a lot of people or a lot of experience with church community has turned a blind eye to some horrific stuff, but then wants to point out, oh, look at the gays. And it's like, but the married pastor in the church has fathered 10 different kids.
SHAY: What are we talking about right now?
CHERYL: Yeah. The cherry picking is insane. Are you gonna tell somebody who has no idea, who is brand new to the church, literally lost their whole entire family, well, just bring it to the feet of Jesus? What does that mean? Or someone who's going through mental health issues, and they're like, oh, pray about it. What is that? I'm already messed up in here. What are you talking about, pray about it?
And I will give credit where it's due — my pastor has done sermons on going to therapy. He says it like, listen, you can have God and therapy. There was an incident in the church where unfortunately something had happened at another church overseas, and he did a whole sermon series on it. He said, we're not gonna shy away from these things that happen. These are Christian leaders that hold themselves to this level, and they allowed this to happen, or it happened, and they tried to cover it up.
So I think the more that we can be honest about what's happening and that we're not perfect — that's why I really appreciate that, because I try my best to live in a space of honesty, and let's tell the truth so we can really talk about it. That's why I can have these conversations and recognize that it's not gonna be rainbows and butterflies. It's not always sunshine on the Christian side of the street.
I think the more that we can — I don't know — I think more Christians are starting to come out of the woodwork where we're raising an eyebrow being like, you're really bent out of shape over that? But here's what's happening — all these hundreds of thousands of people are being killed and slaughtered, but you're upset over this? No. That's not gonna work for me.
So I think the more that we're educating ourselves and standing in our truths and recognizing — for me, there's something bigger than me, and I don't have the right to judge what that looks like — my maker will tell me. But I think more of us are starting to recognize that and stand up. And that's why a lot of those churches, at least the ones I've experienced, they're dying. There's three people left in the pews, and there's a reason why.
SHAY: I wish that was the case for these mega churches, because I — seeing these old ladies send all of their life savings to help somebody buy another jet —
CHERYL: Yeah, it's gross.
SHAY: Yeah. On that happy note — I do have to head out, but I wanna thank you for this. This was painless, right?
CHERYL: Yeah, it was painless. I love it.
SHAY: We're still friends. You still love me, right?
CHERYL: Oh no, I still love you. I don't know what your people are gonna say, but yeah, I still love you.
SHAY: Everybody, you better be nice.
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CHERYL: What is my hair doing today? Seriously.
SHAY: It's fluffy. I love it.
CHERYL: You know what? It's because I didn't scrunch. That's why. It's fine. I'll live. I'll throw it up in a ponytail.
SHAY: You have a spray bottle?
CHERYL: No. Oh, I gotta take you to the Black Girl Sephora.
SHAY: One of these days. So let me tell you, yesterday I stopped by Say She Ate, the Mumbai cafe, the vegan one. It's on South Street. And they gave me a free dessert and a free hibiscus tea. And then I got a cheese steak from there, but on a wrap. Oh, and then because I was ravenous, I went — because six minutes away from there is 20th Street Pizza, so I went to get a white slice and a pepperoni slice, also vegan. And tell me how the guy said, you wouldn't mind if I give you some extra slices, would you? And he gave me a large box filled with slices because it was the end of the night.
CHERYL: I'm jealous. When are we going back to the Puerto Rican spot? That's what I really wanna know.
SHAY: I don't know, but it can't be soon enough. I'm so hungry. My stomach has been growling this entire episode. By the way, sleeper hit — Playa Bowls has a cold brew that is a New Orleans blend, so it's got the chicory in it, and they have a cocoa whip that they can put on top. I've been trying to get better into iced coffee with less ice, so I would try that.
CHERYL: That sounds good.
SHAY: It's really good. I feel like it'd mess up my stomach, but it sounds good.
CHERYL: It probably would, but it sounds good.
SHAY: It is. Okay, we gotta go see the MJ movie. That's another thing.
CHERYL: Oh yeah. Yeah, we do. Send me a headshot that you want me to use and an abbreviated bio.
SHAY: A woman of God.
CHERYL: Oh my gosh, I can't wait to read the comments.
SHAY: Oh, I put out the Monica Johnson episode today. It came out really good.
CHERYL: Oh, I'm very excited to follow up with you on that. That's the woman that we were talking about — you called me about her?
SHAY: Yes. Okay. Turns out she's a big, big, big gamer. Huge gamer.
CHERYL: See? See? Differences and we would never know. Different strokes. You look at people and you're like, oh, this is what you do. And you're like, yeah, she likes to shoot people down.
SHAY: Not Call of Duty. Oh my God. RPGs.
CHERYL: Like which one?
SHAY: Oh God, she was naming a whole bunch of them.
CHERYL: I'll listen to it.
SHAY: Yeah. All righty.
CHERYL: I love you.
SHAY: I love you too. Thank you. I'll talk to you later. Bye.
CHERYL: Bye.