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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
Elle: As product marketers,
we pride ourselves on
being customer obsessed.
We are tuned in to their
needs, their pain points,
and what it takes to win
their trust while there's
another audience that we
cannot afford to overlook.
If you want your product
to win in the market,
then you have to win
over the people who are
taking it to the market.
Today we're talking about
one of the most important
and unfortunately,
often underappreciated.
Audiences that product
marketing serves
the sales team.
I'm so excited to bring you
a product marketing leader
who didn't stop at handing
off an enablement deck.
She truly influenced
the sales team.
It is my pleasure to have
Sharon Markowitz on the show.
You guys.
Sharon is one of those
rare product marketers
who brings together deep
business acumen, a sharp
eye for customer insight.
And a heart for people.
She's led product and
partner marketing at world
class brands like Atlassian,
LinkedIn, Intuit, and most
recently Zoom, where she
built go to market strategies
that not only drove business
growth, but unlocked
real value for customers.
And adding to the brag
sheet, she's been named a
top 100 product marketing
mentor by Share Bird.
She's sought after career
coach and the founder of
your career Wings, where
she coaches marketers
on areas like upskilling
and job searching.
Um, she serves as a great
sounding board on those
issues that matter most.
At the core of it all,
Sharon believes that if
you truly understand the
customer, then everything
else falls into place.
Now that really
resonates with me,
Sharon.
I'm so excited
to have you here.
Welcome to the show.
Sharon: Happy to be here
and thank you El for such
a gracious introduction.
Elle: Of course.
Okay, so let's get our
listeners grounded.
Most people know Zoom
for its video meetings.
But what does
Zoom offer today?
Sharon: Zoom's
come a long way.
It's not just
meetings anymore.
Uh, it's a full platform.
You have Zoom, phone
contact center, team chat,
and over 2000 apps in
the Zoom app marketplace.
So I.
actually led the go to
market strategy for the
Zoom app marketplace.
So that means building
programs that actually
help customers, but
doing more inside Zoom,
whether it's a small
business or an enterprise.
One of the programs I'll
share today um, used an
account based approach
to remove blockers for
high intent customers.
And, you know, it pushed
me to partner with field
in unexpected ways.
Elle: Got it.
This is a perfect example of
when a company transitions
beyond its inception in
that growth stage, it
sounds like Zoom grew a lot.
2000 apps is.
A lot.
Um, I know there's companies
out there with even more,
I'm sure, but for a video
conferencing platform
it feels like a lot.
So that is the kind of
evolution, I think that
creates a lot of new
challenges and opportunities
for product marketers,
especially when it comes
to working with the field.
So let's get into that.
For the first segment
of our show, let's dive
into a case study about
influencing the sales team.
So now Sharon, take us back
to when you realized you
needed to engage with the
field in a whole new way.
What was going on with
Zoom at that time?
Sharon: Well, zoom was
expanding quickly beyond
just meetings and.
Oftentimes the native
functionality just didn't
keep pace with what
the customers needed.
So like as an example, zoom
phone, zoom phone was growing,
but key functionality like
fact support was missing.
Elle: Okay, so that
makes me feel or think of
industries like healthcare.
What do you think?
Sharon: That's right.
I actually have an
interesting example um,
in terms of healthcare
that'll kind of bring it
home to the listeners.
Literally last week I
was seeing a new doctor.
I had my records that I think?
consisted of like a
hundred pages or something
ready to email them.
Uh, however, you know, the
office manager couldn't
accept it unless it was faxed.
Elle: Wow.
Sharon: Yep.
Fax is still a thing.
It is actually really
important in highly regulated
industries 'cause it's just
one of the most secure and
compliant ways to transmit
sensitive documents.
So for many organizations,
switching to Zoom phone just
wasn't a compelling option.
And I think what's
interesting in all this
is that it wasn't for the
business, a demand gen issue.
It was actually a blocker to
conversion for high intent
pipeline, and the opportunity
existed in multiple use
cases, uh, which is why
partnerships are so important.
Elle: Mm. Got it.
Okay.
So the real issue was
that Zoom had outgrown
its initial inception
and these new challenges
arose in the market.
And when you realized
that it wasn't a complete
solution, and that you had
these focus segments like
healthcare that needed more.
So what did you do?
What was the task at hand?
Sharon: You know, I.
could see this wasn't
just a missing feature,
so I developed a scalable
go-to-market strategy.
Starts with making sure
I had the right partner
that meets customer
needs, and then ultimately
supporting the field and
sales to close the deals.
What was interesting though,
at this time at the company,
it was all about ai.
So I had to be thoughtful,
like how am I going to
get some of that mind
share from the sales team?
So with that said, I
had already had a large
stakeholder team um, that
I was leading and I had
to think differently.
So there's a plot
twist coming.
I stepped outside the
product marketing swim line.
Elle: Okay, wait, before you
tell us about the plot twist
let me catch up for a minute.
So Zoom was quickly
expanding beyond meetings.
Um, You found these critical
gaps, like facts um, were
missing and blocking these
big deals in key industries.
Um, So your task at hand
was unblocking that revenue.
Without waiting on the
roadmap that sounds like
working with the sales team.
So tell us more about the plot
twist now and how you stepped
outside the PMM swim lane.
Sharon: Definitely so I needed
attention from the field,
so I ended up introducing
a sales incentive program.
Something not typically
led by product marketing,
but you know, it just
made sense because of
what the business needed.
Uh, funded it from the
marketing budget based
on conversations I had
with the sales team.
Quite simply, reps were
asking for company swag and I
built a program around that.
But it had to have clear
intent that this was about
making sure I engage the
sales team, but also move
deals forward for both Zoom
phone and the ISD partner.
Elle: Okay, so great.
I need to click deeper on
something that you said.
I think your actual words
were in conversations with
sales, so that's so important
for product marketers.
Tell us more about those
conversations and why
they were important.
Sharon: I mean, sales is
on the front lines with
customers, so if you are
going to reach your customer.
A relationship with sales is
a no-brainer in this case.
I tapped a few colleagues
for some quick feedback.
Uh, those, you know, informal
honest conversations are
what sparked the idea.
Uh, they weren't asking for
more marketing decks, they
were asking for something
simple that made them feel
connected to the brand
and gave them a reason
to reengage accounts.
Now, once that was set from
a strategic perspective,
it was really about
rolling out the program.
So I had to shift
to execution mode.
I joined sales calls,
whether it was North
America, Europe, or Asia.
It wasn't about kind of
making more work, it was just
making sure I was plugged in
to the existing go-to-market
motions to support the team.
I also set up a Zoom team
chat channel with the partner,
so if sales had questions,
they had direct access to
the subject matter expert
to help close those deals.
Elle: Yes.
Okay.
So the tips that you shared
just now are so helpful.
You joined sales calls
and you talked to sales
leaders and you created
the chat with sales.
I think all of that is
really helpful for a product
marketer who's trying
to get closer to sales.
You basically embedded
yourself into the sales
team and then you took the
incentive that you built and.
Added it as part of your
entire go-to market strategy.
Um, I feel like most pmms
would've stopped at the
enablement materials,
but you created this
comprehensive approach.
So I'm eager to hear
about the results.
Tell us more.
Sharon: Absolutely.
We ended up seeing over
60% sales participation
in just one quarter.
you know, after I started
getting some messages from
sales about how excited they
were about their Zoom swag.
I basically said, Hey, would
you mind promoting it, you
know, to your colleagues?
Get them engaged, be a part
of the incentive program,
start to close those deals.
And the cool thing
about that is it builds
mind share, not from a
marketer, it's from a peer.
Elle: Yep.
Someone that they trust.
So you basically use this
organic feedback as social
proof to get the other
salespeople interested
in the incentive itself.
Very smart.
Sharon: And ultimately,
you know, the overall go
to market program ended up
driving millions in net new
customer account value and.
At the end of the day,
it accelerated stall
deals and allows the
customer to say yes.
So I think, you know, the
one takeaway I would love the
teams and product marketing
to have they're listening
today is just it's okay to
step outside your swim lane
um, especially when it's
gonna impact the customer
and the business supports it.
Elle: Yep.
I could not agree more.
Um, Okay, so at the end of the
day, how does A PMM know if we
need to put together a sales
incentive program or not?
Sharon: Fair question.
I would say that that's
probably more of a tactic than
it is a solution, so it's not?
really the starting point.
Elle: Uh, okay.
Good point.
All right, so let me back up
and summarize then so we can
get to the starting point.
So, zoom expanded beyond
meetings and you had to
unblock that revenue.
Then you basically did
that by stepping outside.
Your role as a PMM and
truly influenced sales
by embedding yourself
with the team um, joining
calls worldwide, creating
that, chat channel and
everything ultimately driving
millions for the business.
Love it.
So I have so many
questions about this, but
let's start with putting
together a guide for pmms.
If I were trying to influence
the sales team in my org
today, what are the steps
that I would need to take?
What is step one?
Sharon: step one?
is honestly to listen
to your customers and
your internal teams.
Think about, you know,
what are those gaps or
opportunities that may
not be fully reflected in
the current priorities.
Elle: Got it.
Okay.
So you said listen to
your customers and teams.
What does that look like?
Like and then, I guess
like looking at that in
comparison with maybe what
the current priorities
are for the company.
Like, tell us more
about how, looks like to
identify that disconnect
and like what metrics
I should be looking at.
Sharon: It's good questions.
You know, it starts
with listening.
Um, Both like what are
the customers saying?
What does the data show?
So.
On the qualitative side, it
might be sales calls, support,
feedback, or reoccurring
themes in customer interviews.
And then I'd say on the data
side, it's taking a look at.
those win-loss reports.
You know, asking questions
like, Hey, are high intent
deals stalling because it's
something we're not offering.
And I think that if demand
is there, but conversion
is not happening, there's
probably something to
look a bit further into.
Elle: Got it.
Okay.
Those are really helpful
examples to look for.
So once I identify that
gap what are the ways to
influence a sales team?
Or, I guess what I'm asking
is how did you determine
how to influence the team?
I'm guessing that it
had something to do with
learning their needs and, you
know, when you en embedded
yourself in that team.
Sharon: You know,
there's a lot of ways
to influence sales.
I mean, it could be
messaging, it could be a
customer state case study.
Uh, but I think ultimately
you just have to have a real
conversation with your sales
team, your internal customers.
Elle: Yep.
Now that I think about
it, I had actually very
similar experience to
yours, where when I built
a sales program in the past
um, actually at Twilio,
I interviewed salespeople
to understand where their
pains were and what kind
of training and assets.
That they needed.
And that hugely
contributed to a sales
program that I created.
Um, So it sounds like at
Zoom you ha obviously had
a number of stakeholders.
You mentioned you had this
big um, stakeholder management
for the entire go-to-market
strategy, but I guess more
for the incentive program.
Um, relation to sales
specifically, who were
the stakeholders that
you connected with as
you built the program?
Sharon: First, I love the
example that you shared.
you know, the stakeholders
that I connected with are
customer success managers,
account executives to
ultimately share my
idea and discuss what
you're solving for.
I mean, it's ultimately about
having the real conversations,
what could work, but
also what's reasonable.
Elle: Got it.
Okay.
So to recap the steps a
PMM would need to take to
influence sales or the
specifically the sales team
would be one to identify if
there's a disconnect between
priorities and customer needs.
And then two, talk
to your sales team.
Understand what their needs
are to unblock their success,
and then what is step three?
Would it be to build a program
or a strategy itself, I guess.
Sharon: You're onto it.
It's ultimately to build
that, but build it together
with the sales team.
So it's not about
building it in a vacuum.
You know, take what you
heard from sales layer in
those customer insights.
Design something that
fits into their workflow.
Doesn't have to be
complicated, quite frankly.
The simpler, the better.
Elle: Hmm, good points.
Okay, so once you've
identified that gap, you're
working with sales, how do you
build a program that sticks,
and how do you know that?
Or how do you know
if an incentive, like
giving away swag is the
right lever to pull?
Sharon: You know, I.
think a program that sticks
honestly is not guaranteed.
You have to keep listening,
understanding if it
impacted your metrics
that you were solving for.
And for us the incentive part
of the go-to-market effort
was a test for the quarter.
So with that said, swag
for us was also the right
lever, uh, because it was
based off a customer insight
that was real and powerful
From the sales team, they're
connecting with customers
virtually or in person.
They need to be energized
and feel supported.
Elle: Yes.
How brilliant.
So you used the feedback
that you got from sales
and then also um, it sounds
really obvious, but most
people probably don't
really think about it.
But to your point, salespeople
are out with customers and
they're on the front lines
and managing those engagements
and really bringing the
spirit of the brand.
To those customer engagements.
So giving them the swag to
kind of just add that extra
oomph, I guess you could say.
Sounds like it was
really valuable.
So yeah, it's not just
the incentive itself.
Uh, and what else
I know about.
Getting an incentive program
funded, especially out
of a marketing budget is
that it is no small feat.
It takes alignment with
leadership and usually I
have to tie it to pipeline.
In fact, I've only ever
received approval on
something like this was
when I worked closely
with a sales leader and.
We used funding through
like a spiff program.
It wasn't marketing.
So help us understand what
are your tips and ideas
on how do you get buy-in
for something like this?
Sharon: Totally fair.
You know, it was a
revenue blocker and this?
was a clear way to actually
be able to help sales.
As closed deals.
So with that said,
it is still part of
changing sales behavior.
So, you know, first step is,
okay, there's funds in the
marketing budget and then
it's, you know, connecting
with marketing to make sure
you have leadership approval
on that, that connecting
with sales leadership to
make sure that they agree and
they ultimately approve it.
Elle: Got it.
Okay.
And I personally love
that you used swag.
Again, it just brings the
spirit of the brand and
maybe it's just because I'm
such a natural cheerleader,
so I like branded stuff.
But what was your rationale
for using swag versus
something like gift cards
or something like that?
Sharon: Super insightful.
you know, gift cards can be
tricky, you know, and the
reason is 'cause there's
sometimes tax implications
with sales and that?
makes it harder to manage.
Elle: Ah.
Sharon: Swag,
honestly, was simpler.
The budget was
already approved.
We had access to the
company store, so in a
way it was a sunk cost.
It felt easy, scalable, and
it reinforced the brand, as
you mentioned, you know, while
still giving reps something
fun and meaningful to share.
Elle: Yes.
It like ticks every box.
love that.
And true to your point,
you said earlier in our
conversation you said
the simpler, the better
and even, even like the
incentive itself, like just
the, the logistics of it
it sounds like was simple.
So, a really helpful way
to think about structuring
incentive programs
that might use swag.
Okay, so last question for
you on this topic, Sharon.
What advice do you have for
a product marketer who is
looking to influence the
sales team for their product?
Sharon: It's simple.
Treat them as an
internal customer.
Elle: Yes.
Okay.
You know what's really
funny is I asked that
question at the end of
every case study for.
This segment of all of my
episodes and almost all of my
guests say something to the
effect of, talk to customers
or listen to your customers.
Um, which is true, we
should absolutely do that.
it's so easy to forget
that our sales team.
Are our internal customers,
and I really appreciate you
bringing that perspective um,
and reminding us of, of that.
So Sharon, thank you
so much for sharing
this playbook with us.
I know a lot of pmms are going
to walk away with some great
practical insights and ideas
that they can actually try.
All right, so now it's
time for our next segment,
the messaging critique.
This is where we as product
marketing experts get to
analyze real world messaging.
But the fun part is that you,
Sharon, my guests get to pick
the company that we look at.
So before we get started let
me tell you the ground rules.
So, first you're gonna
tell me The company or
product that you want to
look at, the messaging.
You're gonna tell me something
that you're loving about
the messaging, then you're
gonna tell me something
that you wish the PMM would
have done differently.
And then lastly, you're going
to tell us where you think
the messaging could go next,
or how the PMM could iterate
on it and take it further.
Maybe it's a creative
content idea or campaign or
something of that matter.
Again, this is all about
learning, refining our craft.
No negativity, just.
Thoughtful,
constructive critique.
So let's get into it.
Tell me what product
or company has caught
your attention.
Good, bad, or
somewhere in between.
Sharon: So, have you
heard of Time left?
Elle: I haven't, tell me more.
What did they do?
Sharon: So Time left is a
really interesting B2C app
that brings strangers together
for real world connection.
So first you take a
short personality.
It's not like Myers-Briggs,
you know, you basically
are rating your interest
on things like family
nature or politics.
Then the app matches you
with five or six people for
a midweek dinner, you pay
for your reservation for the
dinner, and then ultimately
the meal that you have.
Uh, and after the dinner,
uh, there's an optional
bar to meet at And the
neat thing is like.
Anyone participating in
dinners that night in
the city could go, so
you can meet more people,
Super cool.
Elle: that is so
fascinating and so cool.
And as someone who has moved
to a new place in my adulthood
and not having very many
familiar friends nearby,
could totally appreciate
something like this.
Um, So who do you think
their target customer is?
Sharon: You know, it's, it's
not about really demographics,
it's really more about
the mindset, you know?
The people drawn to time
left are curious and open
the kind who think I'd love
to meet someone new and see
if there's a connection,
but I just haven't found
the right way to do it.
Kind of like what you were
saying, moving to a new
area and looking for some
new folks to get in touch
Elle: Yeah, I feel like
it's really hard for
adults to make new friends.
Sharon: It can be a challenge.
So, you know, with that, you
know, it does attract a mix.
You know, there are
newcomers coming to the
city parents looking for
more adult conversation.
Tourists, locals, you
know, and they all have
that real desire for
connection, you know?
And sometimes in big
cities, and even though
there's tons of people,
there can be a little bit
of loneliness, you know?
And so there can be a bit
of a disconnect, and that's
what they're solving for.
Elle: I love that that drive
to solve for loneliness.
It's such a feel good product.
I so tell me, what are
you loving about the
messaging for their product?
Sharon: I.
think Time left's
core message, which
is meet strangers for
dinner every Wednesday.
Book your seat.
Meet five strangers,
all matched by a
personality algorithm.
simple, consistent,
and inviting.
You know, it has a clear
call to action to lead to
in real life connection.
what's interesting is
though it doesn't like
say it outright, it's
clearly positioning
itself against you.
Scrolling and
endless slipping.
You oftentimes see whether
it's social media or dating
apps, and you know, if you
think about when you have
the real conversations,
it is usually over dinner.
You know, it could be
at the kitchen or at the
dinner table, or in this
case in a restaurant
with some strangers.
Elle: Yes, the dinner
table or the kitchen
brings people together.
I love that.
Okay, so real quick for our
listeners, if you wanna check
them out, it's time left.com.
And when I pull up their
website, you said, it's
just, it's very clean.
Screen and it's just very
pretty font actually that
reads Every Wednesday,
strangers meet for dinner
with a CTA of book your seat.
So I love personally that
they didn't over complicate
it with more information
that's totally unnecessary.
Like, I feel like B2B would've
had like 10 unnecessary
buzzwords in there.
So what's something
that you wish the PMM
would've considered?
Sharon: I really appreciate
the app bridges, the online
and real life experience.
They do rematching features
as well as Postin surveys.
that said, I do find after
the dinner, many connections
moved to WhatsApp threads
and then quickly went away.
No one really followed up.
So you can honestly,
through the app, reconnect
with folks that you met.
If everyone opts in for the
next dinner, you know, Still
an opportunity to play a
stronger role in just helping
those new relationships grow.
Elle: Yeah, I think
that's such a great idea.
They should totally
pilot something like that
and see how it sticks.
So great plug for their
pmms do some more customer
research around how to make
that experience even better.
Okay, so then lastly,
how would you take
this to the next level?
Sharon: You know, building
on what you just mentioned
in terms of, you know, look
into customer research,
improve the experience.
It honestly would just
be to focus on what's
happening after the dinner.
So it already, is an
app that converts from
online to, again, in
real world connection,
which is super rare.
But for some users, if
you know they're attending
multiple dinners, maybe
they'll have that connection,
but But others might just
attend once or twice and
still walk away seeking
that deeper connection.
So there's definitely an
opportunity, like where in the
journey does that connection
start to fade and why?
So, you while I focused on
the post dinner experience
as an area to improve.
it may actually begin earlier.
It's right at the start when
someone takes that personality
quiz or books a reservation
or get matched with the group.
So you know, it's about
looking holistically at the
full customer journey to
see like where are those
experiences that could just
be more cohesive and lasting.
And if it is a
pattern, dig into it.
You know, like partner with
the product team, run some
user research, you know,
from a UX and go to market
lens, you know, and with
that said, this is obviously
an outside in perspective.
I would never assume to
know all of the work that
is already happening behind
Elle: course.
Sharon: and also I'm a huge
advocate, so as a customer
and advocate as we talk about
it, you know, I'm gonna keep
watching and see what's next.
I.
Elle: Of course, yes.
I could totally see the
need for more like frequent
face-to-face interactions,
by the way, just to make
connections truly stick.
But in any case, I totally
respect their mission
and the clean, simplistic
approach to their messaging.
Um, first of all, shout
out to any time left
pmms who may be out there
listening and second.
Maybe they should reach out
to Sharon to see if they can
get some guidance or coaching.
You've got some really strong
ideas here, at least to like.
To drill down and see
what else could be there.
So, great job with your
messaging time left pmms.
We're very intrigued
and we love the product.
Okay, so Sharon, one thing I
try to make space for in this
show is a moment of gratitude
because in product marketing,
none of us get here alone.
We learn so much from
each other and we build
on each other's work and
we're all better for it.
So before we wrap up, I
want to have a genuine,
or say a genuine thank you
to you for taking so much
of your time to coming
on here and sharing your
insights, basically giving
me a free coaching session.
So thank you.
And then I'd love to turn
around to you who are one or
two pmms who've really made
an impact on your career.
It's a perfect moment to
give them a little shout out.
Sharon: You know, first
of all, I love this.
You know, we need to
celebrate people more.
You know, and al the fact
that you're making a point
to include this on your
show says volumes about you.
So with that said, I
would say a cheers to a
former manager, Andrea.
And you know what I loved
about her is that it
wasn't just about your
job performance, it was
also like, where do you.
wanna go in your career?
that's just so important.
And another person I
would think about would
be a cheers to Martha.
She is a super supportive
peer who has been a
great sounding board.
Elle: I love that.
Such a good reminder of how
we learn from each other and
great managers, by the way.
Totally agree.
Having someone who not only
wants to give you feedback
on your performance on the
here and now, but wants
to help guide you and.
help you get to where
you want to go and what
you want to be doing.
It's really special to
have a leader like that.
Okay, so my last question
for you, I promise
this is the last one.
Where else can we
access your expertise?
Is it best to just um,
find you on LinkedIn?
Sharon: Absolutely
find me on LinkedIn?
and then, you know, if you
are in transition looking
to upskill or just need
someone to chat with, you
know, I offer career coaching
to support that next step.
And you can book a
session with me at
topate.io/your career wings.
Uh, I think we all need
someone in our corner and
if you are listening to
the podcast, there might
be a special discount for
you as a first time client.
Elle: What?
Amazing.
So beautiful.
Thank you so much, Sharon.
I will absolutely be adding
that special discount
code to the show notes,
so if anyone is interested
please check that out.
I have had various mentors
and coaches over my life,
and I cannot say enough
how mud itch it has.
Changed my life, my
career for the better.
So highly recommend it.
Again, thank you
so much, Sharon.
This has been lovely.
And thank you PMM listeners
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves you
with inspiration to take the
next step in your own journey