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The All Points West podcast meets leaders from some of the most innovative and influential small and mid-cap UK-listed companies to learn more about them and their businesses. Hosted by former Sunday Times business journalist, Karl West.
Want to get in touch? Send an email to allpointswestpod@gmail.com.
Nothing in this podcast is intended as investment advice and the people in this podcast may hold positions in the stocks they talk about. Do not buy anything based solely on a tip or recommendation. Please do your own research.
Welcome David Mirzai to the All Points West podcast. David is Director of Equity Research and Energy Sector Specialist at SP Angel, the independent partnership that is an advisor and broker to more than 60 companies listed on AIM, the Aquis Exchange, or the main market. SP offers clients a full range of expertise and services covering ongoing regulatory advice, IPOs, and secondary placings, merger and acquisition transactions, and corporate restructuring. David joined SP Angel in 2022 and has more than 15 years of investment banking experience in the London markets and has produced research on a range of small, mid and large cap listed oil and new energy companies. He started his analyst career at Tristone Capital before working at Credit Suisse, then four and a half years at Society Generale and Deutsche Bank. Where he advised on several London IPOs of UK and international businesses, as well as secondary fundraisings, merger and acquisition, and a variety of corporate restructurings. David is also a graduate in petroleum geology and a member of the society of petroleum engineers. David, welcome.
Thank you for your time this morning. The energy market has had a tough year. It's been a tumultuous few years with Russia's invasion of Ukraine and a new crisis erupting in the Middle East in Gaza. These shocks and their impact on the oil price and any energy prices generally are pretty well documented. What's your assessment of how, the current geopolitics will impact both energy policy in the UK and prices over the next 12 months?
Oh, hi there Karl and obviously thanks for having me on on the show Um, we're clearly going to start with the easy question then, trying to predict what your progress is going to be in 12 months time .
Look the There's always a kind of a see saw event.
There's always a cycle in commodity prices. What we do know at the moment, what we've known for the last 10, 20, even 50 years, is that OPEC, or OPEC plus in its current form, does try to manage the oil price. They, they don't want it to be too low because they all have, um, to pay for their, their own government budgets, which basically subsidize their economies, subsidize, um, their, their peoples and keep, keep everyone happy.
On the other hand, they don't want all prices to go too high because if, if all prices go too high, you have inflationary effects. It's bad for the global economy and people start looking at what the alternatives are. The oil price, as of this morning, uh, crept up above 90 dollars a barrel. Uh, we know, uh, from OPEC, um, OPEC plus, both from the Saudis and from the Russians that, that are kind of a Goldilocks number somewhere between 80 and 90 dollars a barrel for Brent, um, is, is, is where they're happy.
It's where they think they can generate a significant amount of free cash flow, but at the same time, it's not going to break, um, the, the global economies. Um, and, and so that's where we are at the moment. That, that incidently is my long term forecast. It has been, uh, for the last two years. Over that time your prices fallen down to, I think, 65, 67 and gone up to 135.
It's basically flat mind in and around 85. So , where's it gonna be in 12 months, Carl? Well, the, the, the market say it's gonna be somewhere between 80 and 90 dollars.
SP Angel does a lot of work as nominated advisor and broker for small and medium sized companies on both AIM and AQUIS. Uh, as I mentioned, tell us a bit about your role. How does it differ from some of the bigger banks and investment houses you've worked at like SovGen?
Yeah. So I think the main difference is when you come down the market cap scale, the stories, the stories get more important. You, you, you have to tell the story of the management team. You have to tell the story of the, the assets, sometimes the, the country, the, the geopolitical influences on getting that resource developed within that country, and you have to have a very key knowledge of a limited number of companies who, who, who, you know, very well and can therefore tell their story on their behalf, uh, to investors. And I suppose that's kind of when I get asked what I do, um, depending on who asked me, uh, I suppose it comes down to a mix of, well, you know, I'm, I'm part financial journalist, I suppose, but, but I'm also part storyteller.
You know, what people at this level buy into is they buy into stories, they buy into the upside, they buy into management's enthusiasm, they buy into an article they've just read on, on, on a country in West Africa, or the energy crisis in South Africa, or markets opening up in Latin America and they, they want to know what type of companies, um, will give them access to, to that story.
I feel that my job is to go out and speak to management, talk to the company, that company will have its own way, its own methodology of presenting their story, their investment case to investors, but it's down to me to present it in my own way and and I suppose that you know in a perfect world, that's what i'd like to be referred to as you know, a storyteller of oil and gas stories. Energy stories now, of course because because we're all in transition, so trying to kind of define where oil and gas opportunities sit with an kind of a complicated commodity energy market that includes everything from green hydrogen to, to, to helium, um, to, to renewables.
Well, that, that brings me on nicely. I said in the intro, you are director of equity research and as you've said there, part of that is telling stories. What's the one thing that you look for that sets apart a good, well run business from the rest when you produce a report on the company? What's your process?
I think it's, it's gotta be management. You know, you, you haven't spent this long in the P sector and haven't seen a variety of management teams, good, bad, and, you know, just plain unfortunate in some cases. You need to believe, um, that, that what a management's telling you is correct is the truth is their accurate forecast of what they think will happen, over the next 12 to 24 months.
You need to believe that that management team will stay the course, they won't change their strategy after you've invested in the company, after you've bought into, to a particular development or strategic plan. Looking past that you, especially at the small end of the EMP market, you really need to know that, believe, sorry, that, that an oil and gas company know when to pull the trigger on a deal.
They, they, they know when the right time to, to, to buy an asset or, or invest in the development is, but also that they're grown up to realize when their asset has, has moved past where they can take it and it would sit better in someone else's portfolio and that that is the correct time to monetize their asset, their company, and then move on to the next opportunity.
I certainly feel that that's been one of the main things that differentiates a good management team from a bad management team in the last 20 years.
Yeah. Where does that faith in management come from when you're looking at them? Is it a gut feel or I would imagine, particularly when you come down the scale and looking at smaller companies, there's perhaps less of a track record of delivery because they are usually growth companies. They are starting out bigger companies, I would imagine, you know, they've been going for a bit longer and so it's probably easier for you then to kind of spot good management because they've had, you know, some years of solid delivery behind them and so you can point to that.
Oh, certainly. I mean, obviously the number one thing you want to see is a track record, be that in the executive management or the board, and, you know, even, even some of the younger management teams, should we say, um, will still have more experienced members of the board to support them who have been through that process. Potentially as management teams in their former careers.
I suppose when you look past that, there are certain management teams, management executives that come out of these companies. You know, it's, they don't
track record themselves. Um, but if they come from a company which had that type of corporate culture, and I suppose I'm thinking of, you know, some of the, really well run, North American companies such as, you know, an Apache or, or, or an Anadarko, um, which, which have very good, um, management teams have very good strategies, but also had very good discipline in, in, in all the time that, that, you know, I've been an analyst and you know, as if a management team has that pedigree, that says a lot for that.
If they don't have that pedigree, then you're just trust into your gut instinct. You, you do meet management teams and you do have to make calls on, on, is this a management team I can trust, um, have they, in which case you, you start by taking small steps. I met this management team six, six months ago, and they told me what they plan to do over the next 12 months, six months ago.
How have they achieved against that development plan? You know, have they actually achieved what they told me they would set out to achieve and if they have, then do you know what? I can trust them for the next 12 months. It's very simple things like that which can build trust in a relationship between someone like me, a broker, an analyst, um, and an oil and gas company.
David, how did you get into this line of work? Who were the big influences or mentors, mentors for you during your career? What did they teach you?
Well, I was, I was, I suppose I was very lucky. Obviously graduated way back when, uh, when, when your price was at 10 bucks a barrel back in 1999, and I had interned at Texaco in my final year at university and my colleagues at Texaco said, you know what, David, there's, there's no need to kind of hurry into the industry.
We look for kind of a wide set of skills. You, you've obviously got geology in your pocket. Um, No one's going to look badly at you if you go off and get some financial experience or you get some experience dealing with investors or dealing with government. So that's what I did. I packed my bag, uh, headed off, uh, first to Dublin.
Then to Luxembourg, uh, and then finally in Edinburgh, uh, where as a, a fund accountant of all things, um, working in, in back office finance, uh, and then I went back and, and did my masters, and luckily for me, when you present your dissertation at the, at the end of your kind of course, a gentlemen turned up, who's a well established executive and now board member in the industry, uh, as a friend of the university to give us kind of feedback on our presentations.
He got in contact with a man called Peter Nichol, who previously a big bank analyst at, um, the likes of Goldman's and ABN, who was setting up a new franchise in London for an existing company called Tristone Capital. He wanted a tech head, he wanted a geologist.
He obviously took his friend's recommendation, um, on heart and he hired me into Tristone and I spent basically four years there. As a junior analyst learning my trade, uh, under some very experienced and very good professionals and, and like a number of the other analysts at Tristone Capital, um, we, we've all done kind of well with ourselves with that background.
So who were the guys there that you kind of looked up to? Who put an arm around you and mentored you there?
I don't know if you'd say put a put an arm around me as
much as
Or who shouted, who shouted at you then?
with a draft report which is covered in red scribbles. The likes of Pete Nick or Toby Pierce were my direct Um, seniors, uh, at, at Tristone. The whole team, it was, it was a small enough company, um, that you got to mix with sales, you got to mix with trading, you got to mix with corporate finance and the investment bankers, uh, who were, who were floor removed from us, um, everyone kind of had a drink down the pub on a, on a Friday, uh, back when you had to work Fridays in the office.
So it was a very good, entry into the sector. I don't think I could have been one of these people who comes out of university and go straight into a grad program at one of the big banks. I certainly don't think that would have suited my, should we refer to it as a quirky character, um, that, that kind of having been around, got my experience and then come back into the sector was a much better, um, Um, uh, progression for me
What, what did that experience teach you do you think about the industry?
Hard work. I mean, you know, there's no getting away from it. As an analyst in the sell side, um, research you work for really long hours to, to start with and I'm aware that's, that's true with a number of other sectors, you know, especially, uh, but not restricted to, to, to London financial banking.
You also see, you have a daily reminder of your progression because, you know, every day you've got new news flow from your companies. Every day you have to respond to that, be it, be it with a comment or be it with a report or updating your financial model. I can certainly tell you that my commentary in my fourth year at tri state was much better than my commentary in my first year at Tristone, um, as were my models and just, just these little steps when you finally make the leap to being a publishing research analyst and you can actually write stuff off your own back and, and put your ideas on paper. It's a wonderful sense of achievement. Hopefully by then, or probably not by then, but hopefully your, your next stage of growth is, um, I always loved the, the phrase, you've got two ears and one mouth, uh, try to listen twice as hard.
You'd get up and you'd phone your fund managers first thing or your traders first thing in the morning and you'd have a conversation with them as to what you think the news on any company means to that company, and then hearing back from, another stakeholder in that company about what that news makes to them, which maybe you hadn't considered before.
Maybe therefore you have to adapt your thinking for the next client you speak to, to say, well, this is what I was thinking about, but actually this is another valid kind of opinion, which I think you should bear in mind.
You mentioned earlier the, uh, green transition. What's your view of the idea that the green transition has become another casualty of Britain's weak economic outlook? We've seen the PM scrapping a few green initiatives, not least HS2, recently.
Suppose that everything you have to take with a pinch of salt, especially when it kind of comes out from the media. You can't deny that the UK has been a leading powerhouse in, in renewables research in, in actual renewable operations. For the last 15, 20 years, um, that comes as a result of our industry, our knowledge, but also that a lot of that was government policy as well.
So you can't just turn around now and say, well, you know, this government's rubbish, it's not doing anything to help us. I'll be honest, it's never really done that much to help the renewables industry. Other than putting in place formats and, and, and structures that private equity and public companies, can invest in and kind of try and guarantee themselves a bit of predictability about returns.
We certainly don't have the, the, the huge, um, subsidization and that you can currently see in the U S and, and, and in the EU. I still think that the UK is a good place, for people who are looking at transition technologies and, and applying those transition technologies, um, to, to the energy space. From my own kind of, kind of background and I'm, I'm involved with a company called Atome, uh, which is listed on the A market.
They have access or the, you know, the original premise is they had, they had access, um, to, um, development in Paraguay, uh, which was the result of being able to monetize cheap hydroelectricity that was previously going to Brazil. They could, they could get that, uh, green hydroelectricity, green generated to be rerouted instead to Paraguay, and then they could use that hydroelectricity to generate green hydrogen.
Now with that green hydrogen. How the story evolved was, well, the most valuable thing they could make with that and then export, uh, was, was green fertilizer. You upgrade the product and then you sell the end product, uh, which is green fertilizer. You sell that to Latin America, the market, and then with that green fertilizer, they can export the agriculture, the, the crops, the, the, the beef.
Back into Europe and it gets around the carbon board mechanism Um tax that you have been entered in the next few years. Now that's a very interesting proposition, but it comes from a UK company based up in leeds taking advantage of its existing contacts which were oil and gas contacts in paraguay and then with the support of both the paraguay authorities and the UK government pushing forward with that development. I could give you plenty examples of wind turbines in, in Scotland and, uh, uh, solar projects in, in Kent, but the transition technologies, the transition movement is going to encompass a lot of different things, over the next 30 years before, before we get to 2050 and our net zero ambitions. I am very much a kind of, um, everything counts person and, and anything we can do to kind of push the story along and de risk certain technologies, we should be open to.
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Thanks for that, David. Could I take you back now to where your story starts? Where did you grow up and what was that like?
I grew up in inner city London. I was originally born and bred in New Cross, South East London. I was told, uh, only on Wednesday afternoon that I don't sound like I'm from New Cross. Well, I can, I can assure you, I grew up in the middle of a council estate. I moved when I was, what, when we were eight, nine, I moved across to Hammersmith, uh, again, uh, I was, I was just by the river, my mum, and dad ran a greasy spoon called the Odd Spot Cafe, uh, which since has become the Plum Cafe, and I think it's now called Sam's Waterside.
It's just opposite of the Riverside Studios in Hammersmith.
Do you still pop in there for a brew?
I don't know. I live in Hackney now, so it's a bit of a trek, but it is nice. When I'm cycling across to see my mother, um, I will, um, stop in or, or, or cycle past it occasionally just, just to see how very different that area looks, um, from the area I grew up in, um, regeneration and all that.
So talk me through that. Talk me through that then. What was it, what was that, what was the area like when, uh, when you grew up? Because we're talking about Hammersmith now.
Yeah, we're talk about Hammersmith, Hammersmith Broadway. There was a lot more going on. There were, there were, uh, more, more bars. There was a couple of late night clubs. You obviously had the, um, what's now referred to as the Hammersmith Apollo, uh, which was a big music hall, uh, not far from us.
Yeah, I mean, one of the big things that I remember is, I think we were, we were the top, one of the top three neighborhoods, uh, for, for, for car break ins, uh, back in the 90s and noughties, which was just the case of people coming and parking on the streets and then going into the, the Hammersmith Apollo and unfortunately having their, their car radios nicked or, or whatnot, uh, whilst they were, were, were enjoying their, their, their nightly music.
I have, um, what, four siblings, um, so it's a busy household growing up. My parents were self employed. So there was always that element that you were, uh, the weekend was not rest days, um, and, and, you know, you, you would help out where you could, uh, be that with, with other members of your family or, or, or the businesses.
It was, you know, I, I remember, I remember my childhood being pretty busy. How's that for an answer?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's good. Were mum and dad strict? Were they worried about you kids growing up in an area that did have, you know, quite high levels of kind of petty crime or even serious serious
crime.
Oh, I think especially my, well, my parents were both immigrants. My father was Iranian. My mother was Irish and both of them moved to the UK in their, their, their late teens, early twenties. Um, so, you know, there's stories of my father and his cousins being chased through New Cross and Bermondsey, uh, by, by, by, you know, the local football hooligans.
Uh, because. Obviously back in the 60s, 70s, uh, it was, it was, it was a lot, a lot more common, uh, shall we say. Um, so certainly compared to that, compared to that environment that my father and his family grew up in, that my mother and, you know,
So are we, are we talking about, are we talking about National Front kind of racism, that
National level, but also low level. I mean, you know, we've all heard about the signs back in the sixties. Uh, what is it? No, no blacks, no dogs, no Irish. Um, so yeah, certainly growing up in the eighties, nineties and, and growing up in, in Hammersmith as opposed to New Cross, um, was, was a lot better, a lot less confrontational.
So was that
seen by your, was that seen by your parents as a kind of a step up in social class by moving from South East London across to West London?
I mean, you know, I was away with my mother a couple of years ago. I took her back to Switzerland where she was a chalet girl back in the 60s. So I took her back to the hotel she was a chalet girl at. She told me then that, actually she quite liked New Cross. She, she, um, she had, um, because she, she brought her children there and kind of taking them through nursery then primary school.
She had a lot of friends and that actually, as much as Hammersmith was, on the face of it, a nicer area, um, and had better schools, um, she, you know, she, she did miss, um, having to leave those friends behind.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You mentioned, did you say you have four siblings?
Yeah. Yeah.
What do they do?
I've, I'm, I'm, I'm the middle child, um, so, so relatively well behaved and, and a bit, um, more footloose and fancy free than the others. I've got two older sisters. One of them works as a police community support officer. Another one works as a office manager at a lawyer's firm.
My brother is a IT sales guy and my little sister, actually works for, um, effectively, environmentalist NGO. So she's the other, the other side of, of my business. We, we like to say as a, as a family, we are net zero compliant because she works in transitioning and I obviously work in, in, in the oil and gas sector.
Even for me, it's, um, that's some of the interesting things that I have to deal with now, uh, Carl, is, is when I'm dealing with, companies who are making those leaps in transition. It's fascinating. From, from a simple point of view, it's, well, how do I apply, my background knowledge, both through the geological knowledge, but also my knowledge of developments and developments in other countries and fiscal regimes.
How can I apply that to a new sector? Be it the likes of wind, the likes of solar or the likes of hydrogen or helium even. There's a lot of parallels and it's certainly, it, it makes things interesting. I haven't quite seen, I mean, same as most people would say, there's not quite the same return on, on equity, uh, in renewables and transition technologies as there is in traditionally been an oil and gas, but at the same time, you know, that is the future and that for every dollar that's to be invested. That's the argument. That's the conundrum that people are looking at. What will my what will my profile look like in 10 years time? Certainly that's that that's her oil and gas that that a lot of people don't see a future for oil and gas in in 10 years time when when they probably should.
I just want to stick with your childhood there for a, for a second.
How much of an influence do you think, um, you know, that had on, uh, on, on you and what you ended up eventually doing that kind of hard work, you know, working class, aspirational, you know, that kind of stuff. How influential was that for you? Do you think?
Do you know, Carlo, I've, I've, I've heard other people on the podcast, um, talking about their, their Presbyterian ethic and whatnot. I think that's certainly played a part. If you come from a working class, self employed family that works six or seven days a week, your, you know, your, your parents work in six, seven days a week, it's less of a, it's less of a shock, uh, when you come to work in, in finance, uh, and, and, you know, you are working long hours.
That's normal to you see, you've seen it growing up, day in, day out.
It's become normalised. You know, again, um, I'm very happy that I've reached a level of experience and worked for a good company where that level, those hours, those 70, 80 hour weeks are no longer the norm. I certainly think on the other side, I used to get sent over to Ireland for a week every summer to spend time with my grandparents.
My granddad used to bring me up hiking in the hills. I certainly think that's partly explains my my my, my my desire to kind of work in the geoscientific, sector is, is, you know, I studied geology. I love mountains. I hike, I trek in my free time.
It's quite nice that I've been able to find a profession that marries with that quite so well. Certainly has, has allowed me to kind of go around the world and in my guise as an oil and gas analyst, and kind of see some of the pictures that I only saw in geology textbooks way back when at university.
Where did you go to school and were you a good student or pupil?
Relatively, you know, same as most people. I went to school at, um, secondary school was Cardinal Vaughan, which at the time was a grant maintained, Catholic secondary school in Holland Park. At the time one of the best two schools in London, Catholic schools in London, vying with the London Oratory.
I decided to go to Cardinal Vaughan because they played football. London Oratory played rugby at the time, and football, football was where, kind of, my head was. Was I a good student? I was a studious student. I was clever. I did study, I did do my homework, but, um, and there's also, but I, I, I do think if you're asking my teachers, I was a little too sure of myself.
I was a little too arrogant and I was a little too cheeky. Now, obviously, I think that's a very common trait for a young man growing up. Hopefully I've got rid of some of those, or at least softened some of those characteristics over the intermittent twenty odd years. Yeah, certainly there's still a cheeky smile behind every request.
You were obviously sporty as well as being academic though. You mentioned, uh, you went to school, you chose the school because it played football.
Yeah. My parents divorced when I was nine and my father left the household. For, you know, certainly a young man kind of growing up there's a wonderful camaraderie in team sports. So, yeah, joining a football club, when I was eight or nine years old and having those friends at football, that masculinity, that came from, being in a group of guys all growing up similar problems, but also the coach at the time was certainly very valuable I think to me growing up, um, added an extra dimension, uh, which obviously my father leaving, um, had, had, had, had left behind.
So perhaps you were looking for a kind of positive male role model at the time as well.
I wouldn't go that far. I think it was just, it was nice to, because I had a younger brother rather than an older brother, I had older sisters, it was nice to get confirmation of certain things growing up as a male adult, that other people were going through the same problems as well and as I say that that came from kind of being a member of a football team, and more so than I think the male role model.
I may have been lacking.
You obviously did well enough at school to go on to university. You went to Aberdeen university. What degree did you study?
Yeah. So, I had a choice between, um, I got into London Imperial to do geology and Aberdeen to do geology. The basic choice was, well, London Imperial is three miles away from my home and Aberdeen is 550. So, um, yeah, probably need a bit of distance.
In terms of the geology. Yeah, I, I, I honestly think that just came from, you know, I, I loved, I loved walking. I didn't have quite the, the knowledge back then or the experience back then as I do now. I knew that having grown up kind of in the city of London that I wanted kind of being outdoors to be a much bigger part of my life going forward.
Yeah and what was Aberdeen like as a student? .
Cold, the skies are grey, the buildings are grey and the ground is grey, the people are grey. It wasn't everything I needed. Um, I've, you know, seen a lot of people you look back now, it, it, it was a, it was a growth period for me.
I made some really good friends, you know, some really, really good friends that I have to this day. That allowed me the confidence to, to, to be me, you know, far more so than, you know, for any, for any younger listeners listening. University is a huge change both in your, in your mindset and your friendship groups and it was a very positive change for me.
So after university, did you jump straight into work or did you take some time out and go on travel?
No, God, I was in debt, had to go straight into work. I didn't want to, I didn't want to go into the oil and gas industry.
So what did you, what did you do?
I didn't want to be back to London at the same time. I want to stretch my legs. One of my flatmate, one of my good mates had just moved over to Dublin, um, in, in 99, as an accountant, um, Dublin at the time was a burgeoning growth center, the Celtic tiger and all that, and he said, well, why don't you come over here, um, and join me?
There's jobs are plenty. There's gold in them, their hills. Well, there wasn't clearly, but, um, yeah, I went over and joined him. I spent three years in Dublin, uh, working in a number of, uh, kind of back office roles, financial roles at various, um, kind of building societies and banks and a couple of pension providers, but basically numbers.
I had always been kind of good with numbers, Karl. I found that a relatively easy transition to make, all be it I had been studying rocks for four years.
Presumably you were familiar with Dublin anyway, because you have family, uh, from Ireland.
My family are based in Tipperary, um, or should I say my mum's family, but clearly there's, there's not a lot of demand for financial people in Tipperary. Dublin at the time was, um, yeah, it really, really opened up. A lot of American banks were kind of sighting their operations there as way into both Europe but also as a cheaper, um, as a cheaper offshoot than going into the UK.
There was a lot of demand for just workers in general, for numerous people. I kind of settled very quickly. I mean, I obviously have my mate to thank for that. He was settled there already. After three years, I'd never really, settled in Ireland, I suppose.
I wanted to try something new I kind of, I handed my notice in and I was offered, I put my CV into headhunters and I was offered a role in Luxembourg, which clearly I've never heard of, uh, up until that time, other than to kind of be able to point it out on the map and be able to pick out its song at the Eurovision.
It was two years of my life, probably the most formative two years of my life. I learned to eat cheese. I learned how good continental food was what Italian pasta really tastes like. Yeah, you got a real sense for expat communities, everything from the Swedes to the Spanish, to Americans who used to come over every now and again. There was a lot more mixing than I'd seen before. That was very positive for me and for my kind of growth. I suppose you'd call it.
One final question. If I may outside work, what do you do to relax? Do you have any hobbies?
Walk. That's the joke. Where's David? He's off walking somewhere. You know, if I'm in London, I, I, I try and kind of spend my weekends, either walking or cycling to see my family who live down the opposite side of London from me. Or I knip around, see my friends. My holidays, aside from visiting my friends, where they may be, be that in Worthing or Stockholm or Belgium, I try and spend a couple of long holidays each year hiking.
So most recently I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro in Tanzania, back in January. Before that, I basically walked around a mountain of an extinct volcano in Namibia, back last May. I went for a walk through the French skiing country, uh, back in September, having some of the finest food I've ever had on a hiking trek, it has to be said.
If David isn't in, in London or he's not seeing his friends, he's, he's probably off walking somewhere. Enormous piece, wonderful to, to kind of, uh, uh, get a change of scene, uh, from in the city of London.
Brilliant. David Mirzaev, SP Angel. Thank you for joining me on the All Points West podcast.
Thanks for having me on Karl.