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Welcome to Conversations That Count, the podcast where Victoria Blackburn, Director at JTC Private Office, brings you honest, thought-provoking perspectives on global wealth stewardship. Each episode is a front-row seat to insightful chats with industry experts, academic minds and seasoned professionals. Get the real story on luxury assets, family governance, next-gen education and succession planning, as well as the ins and outs of family relocation.
Conversations That Count brought to you by JTC Private Office
Victoria:Authentic conversations with industry experts on family governance, succession planning, next generation education, luxury assets and global relocation.
Announcer 1:Fresh perspectives and practical insights for your wealth stewardship journey.
Victoria:Hello everyone. I'm Victoria Blackburn, director at JTC Private and welcome to our next episode in our podcast Conversations That Count. In today's show, Beyond Borders The New Rules of Global Living, I'm joined by Stuart Wakling, Managing Partner at Henley and Partners, the global leader in Residence and Citizenship Planning. Stuart advises both high and ultra high net worth individuals helping them to identify and manage risk while seeking value creating opportunities across multiple jurisdictions. We'll be taking a closer look at why more high net worth families view alternative residents or citizenship as a plan B, how global political and economic shifts are impacting mobility and the growing trend of using these strategies for long term intergenerational planning.
Victoria:Welcome Stuart and thanks for joining me today.
Stuart:Thank you very much for having me, really appreciate it.
Victoria:So firstly Stuart, what would you say are some of the common myths around global mobility? I know that we've talked before about how many people just talk about getting up and leaving The UK for destinations like Spain, but they've only got a UK passport. How have changes in regulations and international relations affected these assumptions?
Stuart:Yeah, well, most passports across the planet don't actually allow you to live anywhere else other than the home country, right? So if you want to go and live somewhere else, you kind of needing to get a visa, whether that be a work visa or you marry the right person from the right country of choice. So I'm personally a British passport holder, okay, so now that Brexit has happened, which is probably the biggest change we've seen in modern times, where else can I go and live? Not really anywhere. Even Jersey, just across the water, as an example, I can't go and live there unless I actually get a job there or I embark upon the investor visa programme.
Stuart:And that's where Henley and Partners come in. We actually help clients obtain additional citizenship or additional residence via investment. What does that mean? In simple sort of layman's terms, client wants an additional residence or citizenship. They can make an economic contribution to said jurisdiction and in exchange if they pass the relevant due diligence checks etc they're a fit and proper person the government will approve them onto a programme.
Victoria:Okay, so let's do some myth debunking. Often we hear people mix up these three phrases relocation, residency and citizenship. Can you explain how they differ and maybe how they overlap?
Stuart:Absolutely. So citizenship, if we talk about citizenship by investment, which is Henley and Partners World, citizenship is actually obtaining a passport to that jurisdiction. So you have all the rights of a national of that nation. So you have the right to live there, work there, vote there, etc. That's citizenship.
Stuart:So you get a passport. Residency or a residence by investment programme gives you the ability to invest in said country in exchange you get to live there. You actually get to reside there. So you and I could go and buy a house in America tomorrow with the right provisions, but we can't necessarily go and live there. So you have a property there, but you don't have a residency there.
Stuart:So a residence by investment allows the applicant or the client to reside in the country, but you don't have a passport. Relocation, obviously, you obtain your residency and you go and live there. Now, are some programmes across the planet, are multiple residents and citizenship programs, but there are residents programs which dictate that you have to spend significant time in that country. But there are some residents programs such as The UAE as an example, where you can obtain a residence permit, visa, however you want to say it, but you don't actually have to spend any time there at all, you just have that as a plan B. So there are the sort of three definitive definitions I would suggest.
Victoria:No, that's really helpful and I think on that as well, one of the things that we then find with people is that it's quite interesting when you say about The UAE and you don't have to spend X amount of time there, people have to look at the other side of that, of what that means, because from a tax perspective, sometimes they're saying, oh, look, I'm a resident here. It's like, yeah, but
Stuart:you're not.
Victoria:And therefore you can't be claiming you tax residency actually have to be there, but that's not, you don't have to be there for the residency part of it, you're doing that because for your tax element, they're totally different
Stuart:things. Exactly right. And you'll be amazed at how many clients come to us and think that I'll get my, let's use The UAE as an example, I'll get my UAE residence permit, my golden visa, however you wanna term, however you want to say it, and then they think that they are now tax resident, but they're not. So there are two aspects of that even as well. So let's say I go and apply for UAE golden visa, I obtain that via whichever route we want to choose, I get my UAE residence, I then have to go and live there for at least on a general level globally, at least six months of the year to prove that I am resident in that jurisdiction more than anywhere else.
Stuart:But what I also have to do is prove to The UK, me being a British passport holder, I have to prove to The UK that I am no longer residing in The UK, and therefore not paying the tax there, or not spending as much time as would trigger me paying The UK tax as well. So there's also two elements of that as well. People come to us and say, well, I've got my UAE golden visa, I'm now tax applicable there. No, you're not, No. Because no one's silly enough to recognise that no amount of time in that jurisdiction allows you to then be part of their tax regime and same from the country in which you are leaving, they need to evidence the fact that you no longer live there either.
Victoria:Yeah, exactly. So it's an entry and exit thing.
Stuart:Correct, yeah.
Victoria:It's quite a few things to think about. It's more complicated than people think. Yeah. We see many high net worth families view alternative residents or citizenship as a plan B for safety and security. What emerging trends are you seeing and how families use these programmes for long term strategic planning?
Stuart:Yeah, okay, so the biggest trend by an absolute mile that we're seeing right now is coming from The US. To put it into perspective, we've hired some 40 plus staff and opened seven offices in The US over the last four years to cater for the demand in what we do from The US. My team in London also servicing a large number of American clients who want that Plan B that you spoke of. The vast majority of them want a residence or citizenship to hedge their bets against the risk of global insecurity. There's probably no surprises that when Mr Trump was re announced, November 2024 was it, We had a huge spike in inquiries into our services, literally overnight.
Stuart:And we actually did some analytical viewing of where those inquiries were coming from, and we mapped it against the voting map that was announced about The US. And all of the inquiries were coming from the blue states. So Trump had been announced, and the people who didn't like Trump in The US had suddenly decided, right, I need to hedge my bets and get that plan B. In terms of my office in The UK, we also saw a large spark, a spike in interest when the government changed the, obviously the change of government, and then they changed the non dom rules. So we had literally people overnight saying, I've been in The UK for this amount of time, or I was thinking of coming to The UK, but now I'm not, or do I want a different option?
Stuart:And the people who had been in The UK wanted to get out, which is unfortunate, but effectively a result of those non dom changes.
Victoria:And I think it's important there to reemphasize the plan B element, it's not that they actually necessarily moved, so again, goes back to our point of relocation, residency, citizenship and the difference is, it was just an option. Yeah. That if they needed to, they could press that
Stuart:button
Victoria:it Absolutely. Was
Stuart:And it's a timely point actually. Historically, if we look back over, I mean, I've been at Henley in ten years, if we look back over that time, there's a very small percentage of clients that actually did relocate. So I would suggest if I look back over the clients that I personally have dealt with, I'd say less than 10% of our clients have actually relocated once they've obtained a residence or a citizenship via us, which is very much adding to your point about people just do this as a plan B, optionality, as diversification, as hedging their bets against anything that could potentially happen in that country of origin. Last year, those figures and that statement kind of got eradicated. So we dealt with more Brits last year from my office than we ever have.
Stuart:In fact, out of my office, obviously we're in the London office, but I look after multiple different jurisdictions across the planet and we actually deal with any client from anywhere. However, we dealt with more Brits than any other nationality last year. If we take that back ten years when I joined Henley and Partners, we would barely ever service a British high net worth individual, they just didn't need our services, right? And that was one of my arguments to my CEO at the time, was that my office is never going to be as lucrative as some of the other offices, because we have a naturalised population that don't need our services.
Victoria:They do now.
Stuart:They do now. It's very much changed and like I said, the number one salts market from my office last year, Brits, and globally Brits were fifth on our list, which is quite staggering when you think, and The US was number one, and again, if we go back ten years when I first started at Henley, we would very rarely deal with an American client, but like I said, 40 odd staff, seven offices later, it's our number one source market.
Victoria:So it's a never say never.
Stuart:Never say never, you never know what's going to happen. And this goes to your point about changes in regimes and changes in global conflicts and structure and setup, etc, you never know what's going to happen. Tomorrow we could be dealing with German clients in and out all day long, but you just never know what's going to happen. The source markets that we originally had remain quite strong, however, the emergence of The UKs and the Brits is quite staggering.
Victoria:Yeah, I suppose with The UK especially, obviously that's a political thing, it's tax driven, but again, Brexit's had a massive impact because that goes back to our point of people saying, oh I want to go move to Spain,
Stuart:or you can't. I mean think about all those guys who were sort of getting to the latter stages of their career or their employment, they bought their house in the Algarve or they'd bought their place in Marbella and they were going to go and spend as much time as they wanted there. Brexit happened, they no longer can do that. So they have now this asset, which they can't really potentially access that much and that goes again back to your point about residence and residency. So they have a residence there, but they don't have a residency.
Stuart:So now, when Brexit happened, we had a big spike, like I was saying, of people wanting to claw back their EU status, because once Brexit happened, they could no longer spend the time that they wanted to in each of these jurisdictions. So lots of people are either using the asset that they had already purchased if it was the right price at the right time, or they are embarking on a residency program in the EU, which will claw back that EU status and give them that mobility and freedom that they potentially deserve and need, which is quite eye opening as well. And this all started, you know, Brexit was a big deal and then COVID was an even bigger deal, but I think we'll probably come to that.
Victoria:Yeah and I think the other thing as well is that people don't really understand the consequences if they overstay the amount of time they're alive, which is something where it's about three months, I think, in the EU and it's not just a tax thing, it's like, well, I'll suffer the tax, it's not
Stuart:a It's that your physical
Victoria:The physical being there and you can be banned from coming and I don't think people think that'll happen to them. But examples
Stuart:So we have now lots of UK nationals applying for European or EU residents programmes so that they do have that mobility.
Victoria:Henley and Partners pioneer residents and citizenship by investments. How have you seen these solutions evolve over the last decade, especially in response to global uncertainty?
Stuart:Yeah, it's a good question. And it's a question that we probably need to look at in two different ways, I suppose. So, the first point to make is that clients wanting another residence or citizenship, which is obviously who we deal with, they have far more choice now than they did ten years ago. And the programmes are a lot more established. Obviously, these are all government run, government approved programmes, and we help enroll the clients onto these programmes.
Stuart:But they've tightened up on a lot of aspects of the programs. So there are a lot more options. However, there are a lot of negative points about those options as well. As an example, from the consumer's point of view, the prices of the programmes have all risen. There are a lot of programmes that were of significant interest, which have disappeared.
Stuart:And the programmes are becoming a lot more difficult for the applicant. So not only has the price increased, but the requirements involved, you know, as an example, the European Union programmes have kind of disappeared and they're being replaced with citizenship by merit, so you really have to evidence how good you could be for that jurisdiction, rather than a monetary reward. The due diligence processes, which we believe is a very good thing because it eradicates half of the cowboys that's claimed to be competitors of ours and also the clients that they're embarking upon this with, they're all going to be eradicated. But due diligence is being tightened and strengthened, which again is a good thing. So there are also programmes that are, as an example, like I said about the prices, New Zealand has actually made its programme a lot easier in terms of the financial outlay and the time constraints upon the applicant, which has made that far easier and far better, but on a general level, it's a lot harder and it's a lot more difficult in terms of the cost.
Stuart:We've also lost a lot of programmes. So the programmes that were popular, as an example, The UK investor visa, three and a half years, that's been gone. There are still routes to The UK, but troublesome and difficult and not what high net worth individuals want. Montenegro citizenship program has disappeared, Ireland's program has disappeared, Malta's program has disappeared, the Caribbeans have all increased their prices quite significantly and the due diligence requirements are a lot more tricky. The list goes on and on, but as I said, the options are there are a lot more options, even though those programmes have disappeared.
Victoria:Why have a lot of those programmes disappeared, do you think?
Stuart:So a lot of these programmes are set up to benefit the jurisdiction in question, right? So there may be a deficit in that country's budget, there may be a requirement to raise funds for certain things, there are countries who want to attract the rich and the elite to their jurisdiction, and we can touch upon that in terms of The UAE quite shortly. But there are a number of different reasons why some programmes disappear. They could have hit the amount of money they needed to raise. In the case of Portugal, the Portugal real estate route was taken away.
Stuart:That was suggested because it was affecting the locals' ability to purchase real estate, because the prices were driven higher by overseas buyers. It's open to discuss why The UK investor visa was shut down, but the government are potentially looking at some sort of replacement relatively soon. It's open for debate why they do shut them down, but those are some reasons why you could look at them as to why they have shut down.
Victoria:Mobility is becoming increasingly intergenerational. Families are integrating citizenship and residency planning into their estate structures ensuring their children inherit not only wealth but also access to freedom. How can a robust citizenship or residency strategy support a family's generational succession goals?
Stuart:That's a good question. If I can answer it by giving you a quote from one of our clients, or not a quote, but an example of what he actually said, I wouldn't want to quote him exactly, because I'll probably get it wrong. However, he said to us, he came to us and he was obtaining an additional citizenship purely for his family, you know, he was getting to the latter stages of life, shall we say, put it politely, and he wanted to do this for his family purely. The costs involved in the programme, the particular programme that he was embarking on, were well over a million euros and he himself was worth about a €100,000,000 and he stated that he would rather leave his children optionality and €99,000,000 rather than a €100,000,000 and be stuck where they were from. I won't go into where they're from because it doesn't sound great for the country in question, but that was his viewpoint.
Stuart:He would rather have them slightly less money and have all the opportunity that he never had as an option. So I think it's a great point and a great way of putting this across, because he said that the additional citizenship that he would obtain for them would give them far greater ability to go and make their own 100,000,000 again, rather than squandering his £100,000,000 or leaving it to the tax man or having them stuck in a jurisdiction which wasn't at its best at that particular point in time. I think that's a really good way of looking at it.
Victoria:Yeah, it's really interesting actually, yeah, just optionality, really important.
Stuart:Absolutely.
Victoria:I think that's, we see that as well in structuring and in all sorts but, you know, when you look at it across like that, it sounds an expensive programme but actually
Stuart:in Yeah, the grand scheme of things of his net worth, you know, if he's leaving a 100,000,000, why not leave 99 and this optionality, Well,
Victoria:just alone, he doesn't make
Stuart:it up. Or the tax man might take the vast majority of what they were inheriting anyway, this is especially pertinent in emerging markets where Mr the matriarch of the family or the main applicant of the family never had these options when he was rising to the top. He's now giving this ability to his kids, which is, you know, we very rarely do sole applicant applications. You know, every time I'm speaking to a prospect or my team is speaking to a prospect, there's a family involved as well, and they're doing it for that family. The only time we ever deal with a sole applicant is usually the main father figure of the family, shall we say, and they've been left behind.
Stuart:They're from Nigeria, they're from Georgia, they're from Kenya, they're from wherever, and everyone else has been sorted because maybe the kids sent them to he sent the kids to The US school or The UK school, the Swiss school or the Canada school, the madam has a link somehow to another citizenship or residency and he's been making the money and focusing on the business and doing all of this and suddenly he's realised that, oh, I'm not sorted, I don't have any options' and so that's when we do deal with single applicants and it's often a laughing and a big talking point because they're like, I've sorted everyone else out, I forgot about myself.
Victoria:Have you noticed then any differences in how older and younger generations approach global mobility and plan for their future? There a difference?
Stuart:Yeah, I would say there is. And I think especially again in the emerging markets, and I think this simply boils down to awareness, you know, just as my previous point, this gentleman in question was never aware, and to be honest, the programmes when he was first starting out in making his fortune or his wealth, they probably didn't exist. Now we have programmes across the globe, you know, we offer 60 plus programmes across the globe, there are so many options. As an example, both myself and my team have done a lot of work in Africa, as you know, I've been to Nigeria eighteen, nineteen times. When I first started traveling to Nigeria nine years ago, many of the high net worth individuals there didn't know these options existed, but cut to now, the younger generation have so much access to information and data, they realise that there are other options out there and there are other solutions, and they understand that they don't need to be limited or inhibited, shall we say, by the small little passport that they're given purely because of where they're born.
Stuart:You know, Mr. Wealthy African client had no choice in where he was born, and he had no option to change that. He made lots of money, you know, in a legitimate way and has become very worldly and wealthy, that's all he's ever known. Whereas the kids now know, or the younger generation I should say, I say kids, the younger generation now know that there are a lot more options and like I said, nobody chooses where they are born, but what Henley and Partners does is offer solutions for the people that want to obtain another option or an additional option. As an example, a Nigerian high net worth individual, no matter what he's achieved, no matter what he's done, no matter how much money he has, he can travel to 45 countries without the need for a visa, and the vast majority of them are in Africa.
Stuart:So he is inhibited, persecuted purely because of that little green book that he was given when he was born. If he invests in a Caribbean citizenship programme, which has always been a really popular option for Henley and Partners globally, not just Africa, but globally, as an alternative citizenship, if he invests in one of those, suddenly he has a citizenship and a passport that can afford him travel to over 150 countries visa free. And so you can see suddenly how his world opens up, and the younger generation are much more aware of this and they want that optionality which maybe the previous generation weren't able to access.
Victoria:Yeah, and I think that's a really interesting point because actually that's different again from even when we were talking about the relocation element or just having an extra residency or an extra citizenship. That's a different thing that's coming with that citizenship.
Stuart:Correct, it's a travel It's a travel tool and that and you know, I look after our South Africa office, our West Africa office and we're branching out into Francophone countries as well and setting up offices there And the vast majority of those jurisdictions purely want another citizenship. Their money is being made in that country, in Senegal, in Nigeria, in Ghana, in Kenya, in South Africa. Their money's being made there, their life is there, they're absolutely happy there, and they're proud to be from there, but they're not proud and they're not helped by the little document that they're given when they're born. And so they want to access another citizenship and they're not doing this to relocate. Not many people go and sit in Antigua Or St Kitts or St Lucia.
Stuart:They are wanting that citizenship to give them that flexibility, the mobility that you mentioned at the start. And it's an amazing travel tool, but it also does give them a plan B. They can go and live in Antigua, I mean there's worse places to live, right?
Victoria:Definitely, yeah.
Stuart:When you're sat for two months in the rain in London Two?
Victoria:I mean like six?
Stuart:Antigua seems very appealing and the African clients and the people who are looking for additional citizenships quite often choose The Caribbean as that plan B and as that getter, because it's cost effective, it benefits the country in question and they've also long standing programmes, St Kitts has been around for almost as long as I have and I'm 43, so I look younger, know.
Victoria:I think it's, you know, again, it goes back to, I think, there'll be lots of different people listening, but I think as a UK passport holder, you do not appreciate how good that passport is for travel. For travel, absolutely. Not so great now with Brexit for other things, but for travel and it's, I mean, just we've even had it as a family, we're queuing up somewhere. And I said to my husband, did you look whether we needed a visa? And he's like, oh, Joby silly, the holiday company sorted that.
Victoria:Of course they hadn't. I was like, no, this is an area you need a visa. Like we're lucky that we can just get this when we go to the desk, some places you have to get it beforehand. And I think that's a really difficult concept for some people to grasp. I mean, many years ago when I traveled to Russia, it was many years ago and it was a long process to get my visa at the time and you're like, wow, some people have to do this all the time
Stuart:Absolutely, just to go on
Victoria:I
Stuart:had a client who lost his passport for three months, not lost, it was within the system applying for a visa, particularly for South Africa, he was from Nigeria and he was applying for a South African visa and he lost his passport within the system for three months and multiple applications for visas from our clients across Africa are rejected unfoundedly, you know, incorrectly, and so they are sick and tired of it. And also, about Mr Oil and Gas who suddenly needs to be in, I don't know, let's pick a jurisdiction, he needs to be in the Schengen Zone for business meetings. How he get to those meetings? How does he make that happen when he has to apply for a visa which could be lost for three months or two months or be Yeah,
Victoria:can't do anything
Stuart:else, So really many of them do that, but also if the proverbial hits the fan in Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, South Africa, what options have they got? They can go on a visitor visa, if they've got such visa, otherwise they're stuck in that jurisdiction. And we've all seen how Africa can be politically buoyant, shall we say, and they want to get out, and if having a Caribbean citizenship, they can go and sit in Antigua for the rest of their days, as an example, I'm using Antigua as an example, there's five options there, They can go and sit there for the rest of their days if they want to. So it's that, again, optionality, mobility, plan B. In terms of The UK, we're actually dealing with lots of UK clients who are getting an additional citizenship as well, And they're using The Caribbean as their plan B, as their what if, because they are petrified of what potentially can happen in The UK as well.
Stuart:They're feeling a quite big disassociation with The UK, and they want another Plan B and it's a cost effective way of obtaining that citizenship as that Plan B.
Victoria:Really interesting. We touched on it very slightly before, but we hear a lot about people moving or wanting to move to The UAE. What do you think are the key factors driving its success in attracting people? I mean, I think we looked at figures like astounding, like was 9,800
Stuart:millionaires. Yeah, 10,000, right?
Victoria:63,000,000,000 worth in investable wealth moving there last It makes it this second leading destination for wealthy migrants after America. So, why is this?
Stuart:I think it might even be number one. I think our predictions put it as number one, very close with The US. So, The US is always going to be, even though we're doing all of that business out of The US, they're not necessarily actually relocating, as we said, we're doing that as a plan B. But if you want to do business or you are coming from an emerging market or you were looking at a destination globally, The US stands out, you know, 400,000,000, three fifty, 400,000,000 people, huge wealth in the country, if you're going to do business then it makes sense, But The UAE is challenging The US, if not already overtaking it. And that can be looked at in three main points to summarize it, I mean we could talk endlessly about it, but three main points.
Stuart:Firstly, it's the country in question's appetite for attracting the wealthy and the elite to their jurisdiction. The UAE looks at this, we look at Dubai, which is where the vast majority of the people go, look at Dubai, it's a relatively young place, you know, it's not very old at all, they want the wealthy and the elite in that jurisdiction, they want people to come there and create business and create jobs and buy houses and buy cars and mobile phone contracts and everything that involved in a relocation. So they are, number one, hungry to do that, they are wanting to go and get the wealthy and the elite. I'll give you a prime example. We had a government unit from The UAE, specifically Abu Dhabi, mandate us as Henley and Partners to host seven or eight global events across the main financial hubs of the planet, where we invite all of the intermediaries, we invite all of our clients and let them showcase what that jurisdiction can offer them.
Stuart:So are The UK doing that at the moment? I don't think so. So they're regularly going around the planet saying, Come and speak to us, come our country. So that's number one. Number two, they have a very business friendly culture, you know, if you want to do business, lots of business people, lots of entrepreneurs, lots of young jet setting people, they're going to Dubai to go and make money And let's be very honest about this, it's a very friendly tax regime.
Stuart:When you look at The UK, if you start to earn significant money in The UK, and let's say you hit a million pound a year in income, which is lovely, you hit a million pound a year income, 450,000 of it is gone. In The UAE you earn a million pounds, you keep a million pounds, so that is a huge draw and every time we speak to a client who is going to The UAE, their main driving force is tax. They have a multicultural society, which is very attractive, you know, business friendly, multicultural, and finally it's a safe, clean and favourable, climated place. Know, I had a lady who I was speaking to recently who wanted to apply for another residency, she was from The UK, she'd lived here, born and raised, she was from Manchester, she was sat in the gym, the cafe of her gym, speaking to me on Zoom and she said Stuart, I'm sick and tired of the rain, I want to go and live somewhere sunny, I want to go and live somewhere warm, you know, that's where she chose, that's where she's and she's physically relocating to that jurisdiction. Now it makes me sad as a Brit, you know, I'm a British passport holder, I've only ever lived in The UK, I find it sad that people want to leave here, but I can begin to understand some of the reasons why their clients tell us that they are relocating.
Stuart:And The UAE has done a very good job in having this desire to have the wealthy and the elite in the jurisdiction. They have this multicultural, clean, safe, tax friendly place and they have a climate, three months of the year it's probably too hot, but for the rest of the time it's very attractive for someone who's sat in The UK for a long time or other jurisdictions of that nature.
Victoria:Yeah and I think it goes back again to your point that a lot of your applications for so many things are family based and that was, you know, when you're talking about the third point was the clean nurse and the safety.
Stuart:And,
Victoria:you know, there'll be educational opportunities, people can slot their kids into a school, very easily there because they want them to, government set it up.
Stuart:They All the big private schools from The UK are setting up branches in The UAE to cater for the demand for what we're seeing, know, the biggest uptake of our services, like I said from my office was Brits, number fifth globally were Brits, and the vast majority of them are going to The UAE. And it's not just the high net worths and the ultra high net worths. Of the routes, all of these programmes have different routes in which you obtain the residence or citizenship. The UAE, the most popular option is an investment into real estate. The requirement is 2,000,000 dirhams, but that's about 400, between 400, depending on the exchange rate, 400, 450,000.
Victoria:Yeah, well, you're thinking of buying something, you're trying to buy something in London, whatever, like
Stuart:Correct, yeah, so we're seeing, I've lost two of my friends to Dubai purely because they can do their job in Dubai, earn more and have what they perceive to be a better standard of living. It's open for debate, right? Dubai is not for everybody, we have lots of clients that come to us and said, right, I want another residence, I want another citizenship, everyone's going to Dubai, I'm not going to Dubai, it's not for me, blah blah blah, and this is the same for every jurisdiction, every option we have, it's not for everyone and this is where we come in and we tell them the pros and cons of each and every programme, the costs involved in each and every programme, what the requirements are for each and every programme, and we filter down until they get a decision that they're ultimately happy with and it achieves their goals.
Victoria:Yeah, and that's one of the reasons, we like working with you is A, often clients come and they say, Oh, I want to move to this place. Quite often say spoken to their friend, she's
Stuart:got very different set
Victoria:of circumstances. I always say, well, no, go and have a word with Stuart and the team. And we've had people go when these programs existed saying, I want to move to Ireland. And then they moved to Malta. I'm like, okay, but that's, it was great because they came and had a chat and they really talked about why they wanted these additional things and that this time they did actually physically move and
Stuart:I had a Canadian guy, as soon as the non changes were announced, he reached out, we actually did a webinar about these non dom changes and he'd emailed me before the end of the webinar and said, I think I'm one of your specifically highlighted people, can we have a chat? I had a chat with him, he went ahead with Cyprus, Cyprus worked for him, he had a certain financial profile, we went through it, Cyprus is not the most popular programme, but for him it worked, so we put him to, sent him to Cyprus, he actually relocated to Cyprus. His wife then said, oh my, one of my best friends actually wants Cyprus as well, can they speak with you? I said absolutely happy to have a chat with them. In no way on earth did Cyprus work for this particular friend, so we found them another solution, again people, we go back to trends, people think right, oh my friend did whatever Malta, my friend did Antigua, my friend did Dubai, my friend did Portugal, I'm going to do that as well, It might not necessarily work for you, you might be earning $10,000,000 a year and have no assets, so the tax regime or the country in question you're going to might not work for that financial profile, or you might earn nothing and have 400,000,000 in the bank, so you need to then think about inheritance tax rather than income tax and you know, we don't, I personally don't advise on tax, I'll be in extensive trouble if I did, however, we do have semi in house tax guy who can assess all of the pros and cons of each and every one and we will identify what works best for you, you know, we're not, we have 60 programs, 60 plus programs across the planet and they range in prices, so we're not trying to push a certain program, which some of our sort of so called competitors do, that they want this programme to be sold because they have a certain deal on that and it might not work for the prospect.
Victoria:Yeah, no, it's really going to what the client actually sort of needs and sometimes they don't know
Stuart:what Correct, they yeah and that's fine too, right, we are more than happy, you know, we never charge you know, we never charge a fee until the client says, yep, that's the one for me and we say, well, right, well that involves this much investment, this much government fee, this is our fee, this is the so and so associate fees and we take them through that process once they're ready, but when people don't know what they want, they just know that they want something, that's absolutely fine too, we have a team who are experienced enough to say what works and what doesn't and I think that's really important.
Victoria:I think another point as well is that you will also say no to people.
Stuart:Absolutely.
Victoria:You know, and sometimes maybe other firms wouldn't say no. And in that case, can you explain to people what happens if someone goes down a route that they shouldn't have gone down, the
Stuart:consequence
Victoria:is
Stuart:going It's not good.
Victoria:No, you think it would be?
Stuart:It's not good. So, can give you another prime example. One of my intermediary contacts reached out to me and said, I've got a guy who wants a Caribbean citizenship, he's got a colourful background and I said, you know, we never say no immediately, let us do our checks and we will tell you and Mr. Client respectively, whether or not we can move forward with something. So we did our relevant two, three day due diligence, we went through all of the things that we do in the background and it was very clear quite quickly that this gentleman would not be accepted by the government in question.
Stuart:So we told him that in a very nice and diplomatic way, and said, 'Look, we don't want to move forward with something, we don't want to waste your time, money and efforts on something that ultimately is going to fail, because it's not going to work for you and it doesn't look good on us. His response to that wasn't great, he said that we were being too pedantic and all of these issues could be explained and he's got three or four other companies that are willing to take his money and embark on this and I say to him, I strongly suggest you don't, because you will be, in our opinion, rejected by the government in question. I think it was Grenada, this particular one. He went ahead with one of our competitors, paid them the money, had his application put forward to the relevant government, which I think, like I said, was Grenada. They rejected him, so he can now never apply for another citizenship programme ever again, because the Caribbean Islands share the information and if he can't obtain one of those programmes, he's never going to get one of the others, so he's now completely stuck, purely because he didn't really listen to what we said.
Stuart:You know, sometimes giving you bad news is actually good news and we would have saved him tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, but yeah, so back to your point, we will only embark on this if we ultimately feel it'll be successful because it doesn't reflect good on us and we don't want waste our clients' time, money and efforts.
Victoria:If we move back now westwards, and I think we touched on this and answered a little bit of this already, but can you share the insights on the current outflows of high net worth from The UK and The USA? I think we said sometimes where a lot of The UK people are going, where are most of these clients going if they are actually moving and not just applying for their option B and the fact is driving those choices, which I think a lot is politics and tax.
Stuart:Correct.
Victoria:Where are they actually, where are they trying to go to?
Stuart:Okay, if we look at The US, the vast majority of the business we're doing with The US, both in my office and from The US offices, is European residences. So there's a natural affiliation of The UK and US, right, same sort of culture, same sort of language, same sort of climate, etc, depending on where they're from in The US. Sort of, yes. And so I think you will find if you do some digging that in 2025, witnessed, 2025 witnessed the biggest amount of applications for some kind of UK settlement from US ever. The non dom changes, although negative for most, were quite positive for The US in that they could come and see it for four years, quite avontagiously, see out what they saw as the issue and then potentially go back.
Stuart:And so there we had lots of people who were actually wanting to relocate were doing that. The vast majority of the clients from The US are still not relocating, they're hedging their bets and they're getting a European residency just in case. If you look secondary to that, they're probably doing what we mentioned about Antigua, St Lucia, St Kitts, Grenada, Dominica, they're getting an additional passport just in case and they'll do a Caribbean. The wealthy will probably do a European citizenship by merit programme, the likes of Austria, Malta Going to The UK, I think we've touched on it, the vast majority of them UAE. Lots still doing Portugal.
Stuart:Portugal is the most applied for programme that we offer globally, which is still quite surprising given that they took away the real estate route, but they have the fund option, which is still quite financially beneficial. You put €500,000 in a Portuguese fund, at the end of it you get your money back plus whatever small interest you earned, and suddenly you could potentially have an EU citizenship, because it's one of those programmes that can lead to citizenship in the long run.
Victoria:Do you get some of the South Americans, the Portuguese speaking South Americans doing that as well?
Stuart:Correct, yep, and a lot in Angola as well, there was a link between Angola and Portugal, I won't go into that now, but yeah, Portugal globally is our most popular programme, we still get lots of Brits clawing back their EU status doing in Portugal. Spain has obviously been removed, we didn't mention that, but Spain was hugely popular up until the end of twenty twenty four, and they were going to, we thought they were going to take away the real estate route, but they didn't, they just took away the whole programme, so the golden visa or the golden residence permit as such, however you want to call it, in Spain no longer exists, there are still passive income and the beck and rules and those kind of things, but Spain no longer exists. So Latvia, believe it or not, has materialised as a popular option, as in terms of an EU residency, because it's the cheapest in terms of financial outlay for one wishing to obtain an EU residence permit. So that has become quite popular as well.
Victoria:So Stuart, single piece of advice would you offer to families who are just beginning to explore the options for residents, citizenship and just say global planning options?
Stuart:You said citizenship okay.
Victoria:I know.
Stuart:You did it, you're getting better, the more you say it, the better you're getting.
Victoria:I know, I panic over every time.
Stuart:Very simple, just come and talk to us, you know, who doesn't like a bit of self promotion but we really do, we really are there to Oh you're
Victoria:gonna say, who doesn't like a cup of coffee or tea?
Stuart:Everyone loves a bit of self promotion but honestly, there is no obligation when you come and speak to us. Ideally, we want to do business, we are here to do business, we're not here to make up the numbers, but it is really important that you just come and talk to us. If you're thinking about another residence or citizenship, just come and talk to us. Don't go online and read the vast amounts of drivel that are there. You'd be amazed at how many mistakes people make purely because they don't get the right information.
Stuart:And if you're actually relocating, we can cater for the vast majority of that. Let's think about a relocation. First of all, you need the visa to be able to live there, the permit, the residence, the citizenship, we will help with that, but you also potentially need a house, we can help with that. You might need to exchange money, we can help with that. You know, we are a one stop shop, we'll take you right through from initial conversation and assessing the options, right through to the passport or the residence permit and the house and everything like that, so that's where we differ.
Stuart:I've you
Victoria:work with some others as well, you know, in terms of like, if it isn't something that you do, you'll talk to people about it, but you'll have a partner Correct. That can do Yeah, those bits
Stuart:as yeah, yeah. We hear so many horror stories from our sort of so called competitors, where a client has chosen to use them purely to save a few thousand dollars and we are the leaders in the industry, we have been around for almost thirty years, We offer over 60 programmes across the globe and we aren't pushing, like I said earlier, we aren't pushing a specific option, we're here to work with you and achieve what you want to achieve. The programmes cost anything from a few thousand dollars right up to €8,000,000, so there's something for everyone, Vicky. I would imagine you'd be interested in the €8,000,000 one yourself.
Victoria:Yeah, definitely. I'm more like, when you mentioned Portugal before, it's like it comes off a lot in conversation in the house.
Stuart:Absolutely. No,
Victoria:that's been brilliant. Thank you. But as we do on every podcast, we like to give our guests a series of quick fire
Disclaimer VO:Oh, do
Stuart:This sounds scary.
Victoria:No, it's not scary. Allows us to know a little bit more about you and I say in here that don't worry, we don't hold you to your answers, we absolutely do.
Stuart:I've gotta think strategically. Those
Victoria:questions This are the easy will determine how many people come in and talk to you about your programs. So the idea is it really is the first thought that comes into your head.
Stuart:It is This not more scary than the questions you've asked me already, you do realise that?
Victoria:Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really gonna define who's gonna come and talk to you now about your programme. So, number one, favourite film?
Stuart:Oh, favourite film. I would say The Godfather.
Victoria:Which one though, all of them?
Stuart:See everyone says two's better, I like one. I like one. Think it was the perfect movie. Yeah. Whiplash, have you ever heard of Whiplash?
Victoria:No, but it sounds scary.
Stuart:It's not scary at all, it's about a young musician in a jazz college.
Victoria:I wouldn't have pictured that from the title.
Stuart:It is fantastic. Whiplash is a famous jazz song and it's amazing, you have to watch it.
Victoria:Okay.
Stuart:No Country for Old Men.
Victoria:Oh yeah, although that terrified me the first time, sorry.
Stuart:The guy in there is scary, right?
Victoria:He's scary in every movie.
Stuart:But when I was a kid, I'd see the film that changed my life, Back to the Future, I absolutely love it.
Victoria:My kids watched that the other day, I can't get
Stuart:kids interested, they say it's ridiculous. I know,
Victoria:mine really liked it.
Stuart:It's fantastic, I loved that film, I watched it endlessly and still do.
Victoria:We told them there was more and they were like 'Really?' They were like we can have a 'Back the
Stuart:Future I heartbroken when, you know, at the end when it used to say it's coming back' or 'Back to the Future two' or 'Look out for this' and then the third one happened and there was no 'Back to the Future four', I was heartbroken.
Victoria:Shaped your life. So what about a favourite book then?
Stuart:See, I'm not a great reader, I'll tell you I thought
Victoria:you just let it say, I don't read books.
Stuart:No, I'm not a great reader, although lately I have read, I got myself through Stephen Hawkins' A Brief History of Time, have you ever read that?
Victoria:No, but I mean, if you're saying you're not a great reader, wouldn't have said that's the first book I'd go
Stuart:to. No, no, and that's my point, I got myself through that. I almost didn't get through anything, including life, whilst reading it, because it blew my mind. However, that's not my usual one, but I really wanted to explore reading, so I chose that big mistake, I will never read it again. I've read it and I couldn't tell you one thing from it, it was mind blowing.
Stuart:I would say, have read the Richard Osmond's Thursday Murder Course?
Victoria:Oh, love it, do you know, don't, this is unusual because I am a very quick reader, I do love books, I went to Waterstones yesterday, was very excited, I just went around the shop, bought four copies, it's fine, my husband will hear this later and not at the time that I'm travelling back. So, it's fine. But with those ones, what I actually do is I love the audio books.
Stuart:Okay.
Victoria:I love the voices on there and voices.
Stuart:I love those books. Never thought I would be a fan of such a thing but they are fantastic.
Victoria:They're so feel ruined it for me.
Stuart:Yeah, the film was rubbish.
Victoria:Because that just did not, it didn't do it justice.
Stuart:The books are fantastic, they're just lovely, they feel nice, you feel part of it, I really like that. But again, growing up and still now, and I bought this for my daughter recently, Wind in the Willows, Love the Wind in the Willows. Because I'm a country boy at heart, I was brought up in the middle of nowhere in I
Victoria:still have to do that for my kids, I haven't done that.
Stuart:That's fantastic.
Victoria:Favourite meal or dish and why?
Stuart:Favourite? Anything lobster. I just love lobster.
Victoria:I nearly had to pass a comment there about, well, I mean how much are they getting paid at Heavenly
Stuart:and Partners?
Victoria:Anything lobster?
Stuart:Not enough because I can't eat it regularly enough. There's a little place called the Noisy Lobster in Avon Beach in Hampshire, which my daughter and I go to every single time we go to the New Forest, probably two or three times whilst we're down there as well and they do the amazing lobster rolls or lobster mac and cheese, they're fantastic, absolutely amazing. And you just got the best view, it looks out over the That's
Victoria:even better, you need the view.
Stuart:And it's not expensive genuinely, the noisy lobster, I feel like I'm promoting them, I hope You'll I'm getting a cut of
Victoria:be getting free next time you go in. It's funny because my dad was always like, oh, you know, you can only have seafood near the sea. And I laugh now because I think, well, it's true,
Stuart:It is better, not
Victoria:just It is better, but actually because obviously where I live, they fly it in every day. It's one of the best places to have seafood
Stuart:Oh, because they a luxury boat.
Victoria:Yeah, that's where it's bizarre landlocked country that you're gonna have it, but it works really, really well. So, is there any food that you really hate or dislike or maybe
Stuart:You're you're allergic not allowed to judge me when I tell you, apple skin. It makes me shiver, I actually shiver, like if I
Victoria:bite into an apple or someone peels it and does that whole like
Stuart:Up until I left home, I used to get my mum to peel my apples for me before I ate them. I love apples, just the skin literally makes know this me
Victoria:is really determining whether you actually go and talk
Stuart:to these people. I just can't, apple skin, it just makes me shiver and I physically can't bite into an apple.
Victoria:I say, I hate marmalade. I mean, it's not the same reason I can't, literally, no, it makes me feel sick. Oh, the other one, I didn't say the other day, tarragon. I didn't mean to, I was really ill
Stuart:when I
Victoria:ate some tarragon chicken. It was nothing to do with the tarragon chicken, I had a virus and the other Don't
Stuart:say where it was from.
Victoria:Well, no, no, it was thirty years ago and I thought, must be over this. Went to a Michelin star restaurant with my husband and they brought out stuff and one of it had like tarragon in. Because they said, Have you got any allergies? And I was like, No. They said, could not eat this dish, I felt sick.
Victoria:So now I have to say tarragon. Someone says, have you got an allergy? Because the next day I went to another restaurant, they bought out tarragon butter. I was like, for goodness sake.
Stuart:I have that sickness feeling when I smell tequila from young
Victoria:Well that's because had too much.
Stuart:Correct, when I was a younger lad. Yes. I still, even the smell of it now, not good.
Victoria:Thinking about it. So, habit of another person that annoys you the most? Doesn't have to be a particular person, just anybody.
Stuart:I don't know if it's a particular person.
Victoria:No, can if you won't.
Stuart:No, won't do that, I'll get myself into a hell of a lot of trouble. Just a lack of consideration for others, that really agitates me, like no awareness of anybody else. So I'll give you an example, when you go to the supermarket and someone's parked halfway across two bays or they have no kids and they've parked in the family kids parking spot, or they're not disabled and they've parked in the disabled spot, or middle lane drivers, no awareness of anybody else.
Victoria:Maybe you can't see
Stuart:my No, face we're on the the road.
Victoria:And I can't say there's a particular nationality that do this a lot and they drive around the country that I live in a lot and it drives me mad.
Stuart:But what, like surely someone has told them that if you're not overtaking, you go
Victoria:and No, don't think they have or they have a different view, I don't know, but also they don't Oh, get
Stuart:no, no, sorry, I can literally do this for half an hour.
Victoria:No, you're not allowed.
Stuart:Getting to the till after you've queued up.
Victoria:Get your wallet out.
Stuart:And then you've got your wallet. Is it a surprise that you've got to the till and you have to pay for the product? Is that suddenly some unique alien process that has
Victoria:well that's usually would say, there's quite a lot of looking in a bag or passing pockets at that point. It's a phone quite often though, you can use that, people.
Stuart:Yeah, true, but I just don't get it, how can you get to a tool and then go, Oh yeah, right, let me get my wallet or let me get my card or what blows my mind.
Victoria:So next one then, place you feel most content, that can be a particular place.
Stuart:Not at the back of a queue when someone's waiting
Victoria:for I'll a be in your house, it in a particular country
Stuart:or That's easy, Cornwall. Cornwall. I just love Cornwall. Namely Palf Coffin Beach.
Victoria:North
Stuart:Cornwall. Just I get there and I just go, And I see what it does to the kids and yeah, that's where I just feel happy and content and relaxed.
Victoria:That's okay because you don't need an extra passport to go there?
Stuart:Correct.
Victoria:Well, I don't know, you might.
Stuart:You might someday.
Victoria:You might someday.
Stuart:As you said, never say never.
Victoria:Never say never. And the thing that you are most proud of yourself for? Goodness. Think carefully.
Stuart:It's very cliche and very predictable, but my kids, think probably the greatest success in life is having kids that want to spend time with you.
Victoria:Yeah.
Stuart:You know, everyone wants to spend time with the kids, do the kids necessarily, at certain ages, do they want to spend time with you? I think if you've got, I haven't at the moment, I've got an 11 year old and a six year old, but if you've got say 18 year olds and 15 year olds and they want to spend time with you, I think you've done very well.
Victoria:Yeah, you also just need to take them on good holidays, they will come back for
Stuart:Which means the they might need my services.
Victoria:Yeah, they might, exactly, so
Stuart:choice I'd that you probably say my kids, yeah, and seeing how they are doing, think is probably the biggest, proudest moment. If you look at me personally, I think I've had, I've faced adversity a couple of times in my working career, my employment, and I've kind of dusted myself off, well picked myself up, dusted myself off and cracked on and got on with it and to a certain degree made quite a good success of it as well. So, I would say that as well.
Victoria:Well, I wanna say thank you very much for joining me today. It was really interesting and really enjoyable. I think hopefully our audience heard that. So it's a really good conversation.
Stuart:I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
Victoria:Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening to our latest episode of Conversations That Count, the podcast brought to you by JTC Private Office. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe on your preferred podcast platform so you never miss an update. We'd love to hear your feedback, topic suggestions or questions, just reach out to us at our usual email address jtcprivateofficepodcastjtcgroup dot com. The email will be in the show notes.
Victoria:And if you'd like to be a guest on the show, we'd be delighted to hear from you and to take any questions. Thank you again and we look forward to welcoming you next time.
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