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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
It's very important to know what type of annoying distractions you will have to face, bureaucracy and that kind of stuff. And then it's all about, like, once that's all done, I think it's more a more equal playing field where all of the previous advice from previous episodes apply. You know, do good work. Be a decent human being. Communicate well.
Nick:Show yourself, etcetera.
Tyler:I think that you nailed it there. It's and the final piece is super important as well. It's just like, make sure you show up as your best self and just show that you're you're an asset, not a liability.
Nick:Yeah. An asset instead of an asshole. We are kind of life now. This is what I always want to say. We are alive.
Tyler:And we're officially live.
Nick:We are officially live. Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment. I think language is perhaps most important thing. So we reviewed some of his work, and it's not in English.
Nick:And Right. Just this morning, I had a coaching call with someone from Portugal who wanted to work in The Netherlands. And his website was in English. You know, it's well done. But his mock ups and his featured images and his case studies were all in Portuguese, you know, the the website that he designed.
Nick:It's I didn't tell him yet because we, you only had the intro call, but I will recommend him to, you know, translate the mock ups that he has on his website to English because it's just, you know, the people looking at your work, they are very likely not going to be able to read your website. You know, it doesn't really matter if they read the case study, but, you know, people are visual learners. It's good to have the mock ups in a language people can understand. So language, that's step one.
Tyler:100%. I mean, UX is UX, so, like, that doesn't change, but you have to be aware of who you're presenting to. And if they don't speak or read the language presented, you're gonna lose them. Yeah. And they're not getting the additional context.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, so that's probably also something that makes your country of choice in more interesting. Like, if you go to, you know, England or America or Canada, you know, you need to learn English. If you would go to another European country, for example, you know, to The Netherlands, English will help, but it's not the main language. So you would limit yourself there a little bit.
Nick:Yeah. So that, you know, if you really want to go to a non English speaking country, you know, that's perfectly fine. But keep in mind that you will have a double language barrier.
Tyler:Yeah. 100%. I think copy is the one thing. And then I'd mentioned last episode, cultural differences are important as well. So small example, how websites are constructed in China are different on how they're constructed in, let's say, North America, let's say.
Tyler:Number one, the language is different, but also reading order is different. It goes right to left instead of left to right. So that's a small example. So it's about understanding the culture in which you are leaving to, and then what are the cultural differences that you're will be landing to in this new location. Are there differences on how UX is deployed between the two countries?
Tyler:I think that's important. So first step is just, like I mentioned, just take a look, get gander at the designers within that country specifically and understand take do some research to see if there's any differences in how, like, to your point, copy is written on how maybe websites or products are constructed. What are the differences there? Just to set yourself up for just to be aware because Yeah. A UX norm in your country might be different than the UX norm in another.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I think also people have a bias about, you know, people from a different place.
Nick:We're like, well, we do things a certain way, and it's probably going to be a whole lot of work to get this person adjusted. So if you're doing what you're saying, that will not be a problem. You know? So if you you have to mimic the type of design that they will expect from you, and then language is one thing. Culture is another thing.
Nick:Over here, I know that government design work is going to be a problem if you do not speak Dutch to a certain level. Right. We have quite a few multinational companies, like, very like, large corporations, and they work. They have a a working language, you know, in English anyway. Like, even if there are only Dutch people in the room, they are still speaking English, which I've experienced a few times.
Nick:It's very silly. Like, we could just speak Dutch, you know, but then we don't because it's recorded and, you know, different people might read it. Yeah. So English will help, but Dutch would be even better. And then if you are in the European Union, it's also way easier to to move places and to to find work.
Nick:So I think Kosovo is not part of the European Union, I think. I remember correctly. So that makes it way harder to to go over here. You need to do visa and all that kind of stuff. But I've also been thinking that you could perhaps start by finding remote work in you know, with you being remote in your own country and doing work for a company in the country where you want to relocate to in the end.
Tyler:That's true.
Nick:Yeah. Doesn't doesn't mean that you are going they are going to sponsor you, but it's good to build your portfolio and your experience working with a type of company in a certain country, certain culture that they have, it's it's just going to make your applying and job interviews way easier because you have something to show for.
Tyler:Exactly. And you're showing products or services native to wherever you're moving to. So it's Yeah. They may be brands that they're familiar with. And if not, if they're as part of if I'm the hiring manager and I'm reviewing your work, my first instinct is to Google the product or service to see if it's live and see if it connects to the work I'm seeing versus what's in production.
Tyler:So if if I'm searching for it and I see, okay. It's located in my country or near or nearby
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:That helps.
Nick:Yes. Yeah. So it's basically the same thing as, you know, the the the typical portfolio advice that you have to niche down. You know, I'm doing only projects in fintech, but it could work for country as well is what you're saying. Like, all I've done is, you know, German car manufacturing websites, for example, if you want to work in Germany.
Tyler:Yes. That's a very specific niche. Very specific. I I only do German car websites.
Nick:Yeah. Well, that's because they have a lot of car brands. I know as a car person myself, it's the first thing I first thing I thought of. But it's very hard, isn't it? I mean, to to get hired in a different country.
Tyler:It is. Right? Because, like, the whole I mean, depending where you're planning to move, I mean, whatever governmental procedures you need to move over, but also the cultural differences.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:I think language helps. So, like, Loric, in this example, speaks English. So if he's moving to an English speaking country, that's a quick win. Yeah. But if you're not familiar with the language, that might be a bit of there might be a bit of friction on that specifically.
Nick:Right. Yeah. And what I'm also thinking, and it's not wait. It's not ideal, I assume, but you can also move countries multiple times. Like, I have a colleague on a project who is I'm not sure if you would call it a nomad, but he moves around the world, like, all the time.
Nick:And he stays in different places for a while and while working, you know, everything remotely. But if the jump from, let's say, Kosovo to Canada is too big, like, maybe move a little bit to the West first. I spoke to someone else from Eastern Europe, not 100% sure anymore on where he was from, but he showed me a few videos where they say the same thing, same sentence in the language of a few of their neighbor countries, and then it all sounded you know, there's a a lot of overlap there. You know? So it's maybe easier to move a little bit first and prove your situation that way, establish yourself, build your portfolio, and your financial security for making that next step.
Nick:It's just like I would for me, it would be much easier to move from The Netherlands to Denmark or Sweden than it would be to move from The Netherlands to Spain, you know, just because of literal climate and language. You know, I I do not speak Swedish. But if you listen to it, you can just hear that it's there's some overlap. So I know it will be easier for me to adjust, and then I will jump to another country later. So just to summarize this, it means that you shouldn't the end goal isn't the only step you can take.
Nick:You know, you can have stepping stones in between.
Tyler:Yeah. A 100%. It doesn't have to be a zero to one. It could be a long term plan. Yeah.
Tyler:But I think what goes without saying, whether you're working remotely in that other country or planning a move, your work needs to be good. I think that's first thing people look at. Is your work good? Great. Are they are they coming from another country?
Tyler:It's less of a worry because the work is great. That's all I care about.
Nick:True. True. I mean, that's the sad reality, I I guess, that also if people can choose or pick someone that's good enough from, you know, their same hometown Mhmm. They will probably do so instead of picking someone where it's more of a gamble. Like, will this person fit?
Nick:Yes or no. So the market has to be very good. You know, a employee's market, I think is what they say, or you have to be exceptionally good in your work. Or the third thing I'm thinking about now is people also do near shoring and offshoring. Like, I've been working with a, you know, a an agency in The UK, and then, like, only the management is in The UK.
Nick:And then all their teams, they are in Ukraine, you know, just because it's
Tyler:I've seen that too.
Nick:Yeah. Because it's it's cheaper. Like, there's nothing wrong with having that type of structure where you work for a Western European company while being located in Kosovo or something near Kosovo, but it because it also builds your network. And you can like, at some point, they will ask you for whatever project they they will be like, hey. Let's let's let's go let's visit London or anywhere.
Nick:You know? And then that's your first step there, and then you will meet people, and then it makes it easier for you to stay. Yeah. So that could work too, I guess.
Tyler:That's an interesting thing that you just brought up. Like, my first question be because I've I've seen that often. It's like people hire from the Ukraine because it's cheaper, but, also, the quality is probably good as well. So, like, why is it that people are or startups or companies are looking for workers in the Ukraine because their work goes back to my other point, because their work is good. Lower and we're just finding quality plus also for the price.
Tyler:So for that person looking for for work in another another residency, that's a good case study. Like, why are people picking from Ukraine? Because the work is good. Perfect. I need to do the same.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. You have to match. I mean, that's, you know, us going full circle in a way that you mentioned in the beginning. You have to match what people expect from you, which is a whole different conversation also about, you know, things we've discussed before, but should people should designers code?
Nick:Yes or no. And AI, yes or no. All that kind of stuff. I mean, you can be very stubborn. Like, no.
Nick:It should be this way, which will probably make you jobless, or you can mimic what people expect of you Yeah. And then, you know, change things from the inside. So how how about, like, internships? People look like, if people cannot find a job, they look at internships, and if they cannot find internships, they will look to volunteer somewhere. Yeah.
Nick:And we discussed, you know, what Loric asked in that previous episode is which we didn't answer in that episode, but so we can do it now. Like, is doing an internship or a traineeship helpful to be able to move places? And what about I would think unpaid internships?
Tyler:That's an interesting one. Yeah. I think internships, if you aren't hitting some friction and you're not able to to get where you need like, get a job straight out, I think internship is the next bet. It's beneficial because you're able to work within the place you need to. You're also gaining more experience, and then you have more portfolio and work pieces to show for it.
Tyler:To your second point, should it, like, should it be free work? I'm not against doing free work. I think No. If you have to pay your dues, you have to pay your dues. Ideally, I like to be paid for any work that I'm doing, but do whatever is necessary to get to your to your outcome.
Tyler:So back to your earlier point, if I wanna go from Europe to to The US for for some reason and I can't do that jump immediately, well, maybe I'll try the next near nearby country, and then I'll then I'll do my jumps. Similar thing. If you need to do an internship, absolutely 100%. I think they're super valuable regardless if they're paid they're paid or not.
Nick:I mean, you have to be you have to be aware of certain red flags. You know? I mean, free internships are fine if you can see the bigger picture. Like, if you know that you're doing the work while being allowed to do a lot of networking Mhmm. Or if you know that your manager is a super senior, like, designer rock star with lots of experience and and skills and a great teacher, like, then it's worth it.
Nick:But if you see if you walk into the into the office for your interview and you see all these stressed out students and it's just like it looks more like a factory than a design studio. Right. You know? Then you know, like, you know, it it's probably not the best place because they are not paying you because they're cheap. You know?
Tyler:Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. So you have to be super aware and and strict in accepting or not accepting a free internship.
Tyler:Yeah. I think that's a good distinction. Like, for example, I would do free work or in free internship at Facebook, for example. Why? Because it has a name and it has infamy.
Tyler:So, like, I know that they do things the correct way. There is a lot of people within the company that I can learn a lot from. And I know I'm not I know I'm I'm gaining something as well as giving something as well. So, like, a bit of give and take versus a lesser known start up that or company that may just be looking for free work. So when you're looking for an internship, it needs to be reciprocal.
Tyler:Like, you're doing free work, but this is a well established company, and it's very credible.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:And then I can use it as a piece in my resume or portfolio because it's a recognizable name.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, we all want to build that logo wall on our website. Absolutely. Yeah. And, I mean, this might put a lot of pressure on you as a as a listener.
Nick:Like, oh, man. I wish I I I I hope I spotted all the red flags. And if I do not spot spot any red flags, you know, doesn't mean there aren't any. Did I miss anything? No.
Nick:But rest assured, I miss a few red flags every now and then as well. And then when something really goes wrong in my projects, I'm like, in hindsight, those were the red flags in moment a, b, and c. I wish I'd seen them sooner. So long, long ramble made short, like, you will not have a perfect track record. Like, you might do something that looks great on paper, and then in the end, it turns out it's been a huge, huge waste waste of your time.
Nick:But that's that's part of the game.
Tyler:Yes. A 100%.
Nick:Yeah. You know, because now I'm, you know, I'm I'm doing a bit of free work now. Not really now, literally, because, you know, we're we're doing a recording now. But Right. This week, I did a bit of free work because the odds are very strong that it will bring me a good project because I know there's a good fit, you know, culture wise and also in terms of the work they're looking for versus the work I can provide.
Nick:So they want to do a test run. You know, I'm I'm like, okay. Sure. Because I know, like like, it's it's like 80 or 90% certain that something will come from it, then it's fine. But I've also had a project where the person I should talk to, they've been rescheduling all the time.
Nick:And then after I finally spoke to them, they were happy. And then I said, well, I want to have 50% up front, and then that was fine too, but I'm still waiting on that 50% up front. But they are expecting me to start. You know? So those are, like, orange, close to red flags.
Nick:Like, everything's been going very slowly. You know? So in that case, I would be more hesitant to do free work because everything's been going very slowly up until this point.
Tyler:On that point, if you were to give someone guidance, like, on that free work part, you touched a bit of, like, what are those red flags? But what are the not really guardrails, but, like, what are you putting in place? I don't know. What are your things that you expect when you're doing free work? Is it limit in scope?
Tyler:Is it type of work you're doing? The amount of hours you're putting in? Because free work, that can be like, you can do free work for a year. Like, what is your how is your negotiation there?
Nick:I think one of the magic words you used was scope. You know? If it's free work, I would not say something like it's done when you're happy with this. You know? I would probably put in well, you know, I can put in this afternoon, like, you know, after lunch until dinner.
Nick:You know, it's half of my working day. I'm yours, and I will do whatever I can, and then we'll see in the end. Or you specify an x amount of revisions. Like, I will make a v one, and then you can share your feedback, and then it's done. So that's that's one thing.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, being specific, think, is the biggest one. Any thoughts there on the scope creep and making sure to be specific?
Tyler:Yeah. I think you probably set expectations. Like, you mentioned, if I do this free work, the expectation is this will they'll probably engage you full time or on contract basis. So, like, being clear with expectations. Like, this is probably you mentioned that this is a test.
Tyler:They're probably saying, does Nick do great work? I'd love to kinda pilot them on this on this project. If I like it, we'll proceed to the next step. Being, I think, being explicit and clear throughout, not just at the beginning, but, like, I would mention it a couple times. Like Yeah.
Tyler:This is, yeah, this is this is the work I'm doing. At every kind of touch point, I'm presenting this. This is and I hope maybe just a quick thing. I just mentioned, like, if you like this work, imagine just tease. Imagine having me full time.
Tyler:I'll be
Nick:more like the one.
Tyler:Not engaged, but the ROI of of having Nick on the team is is very clear.
Nick:Yeah. And then, you know, it's it's easy to to go overboard there. Like, if you feel like there's a lot of riding on this, like, I really need this job. I'm going to do super much work and be hyperspecific. I think in most cases, it's more about, you know, the soft skills.
Nick:Like, you know, it's more about how does this person communicate, how is it to work with this person. Like, is it a drag the whole time, or is it fun? You know? I think that's more more important.
Tyler:Yeah. I think I like the bare minimum doing what you what you say and just being accountable. Yep. No delays. When this when you say this project or this part of this of the project is gonna be complete, that is completed on that day you show up on time.
Tyler:That'll get you 90% there.
Nick:Yes. And then as a little bit of additional advice there is that when people ask you, like, when are you done? Like, you assume that they are in a rush, and you are probably likely to say something like, well, tomorrow. And then then you've set unrealistic expectations. But if you would have said, well, next week or in two weeks, like, usually, it doesn't really matter how fast you are ready.
Nick:They just want to know when to expect it. And this goes against your nature of wanting to have it done quickly because you think they expect it. But their answer is always going to be, okay. That's fine. Unless you say six months for a small thing, of course.
Nick:But if you say something more or less reasonable, then it's going to be fine. One thing I think for for you and I as as a coach, and we also do free work because we expect future returns. Like, when I do coaching, I always have a free intro call. You know? Yes.
Nick:It says thirty minutes, but I always run over. Like, it's always, like, forty or forty five because I really want to take my time, and that doesn't include all the preparation. You know, emailing back and forth, reading their portfolio, reading their LinkedIn profile, you know, booking, all that kind of stuff. So you all have already put in, like, sixty or ninety minutes before you even spoken to the person plus a free meeting. And then, you know, only later, it might convert into a paid coaching project.
Nick:You know? So that's also free work in a very small and safe environment because you know, like, if you do a good job, if you filter who you are going to talk to, like, the odds of conversion are very high, and, you know, that's just fine. And I think an unpaid internship potentially is a way bigger version of that free intro call.
Tyler:I think they all marry each other in terms of, like, how that relationship works is there needs to be trust on both sides
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:And proof that the value you're gonna bring is is good. And then Mhmm. If there's alignment there, you move to the next step. Similar in in all of those three cases.
Nick:Yeah. I I I think that's extra important when trying to relocate. I mean, over here, they warn you for online criminals. You know? So you really have to show your face.
Nick:Like, if you apply somewhere from a different country and you want to relocate, you know, record a Loom video, you know, just to show yourself. And if you can get on a call with someone, might be phone call or a Teams or Zoom or Google Meet Meet meeting or whatever, it's very silly, but just to show them that you're a real person. That's also really helpful because as you say, the trust has to be there. And it applies the other way around also because you are going to sell your house, quit your rent, you know, give everything away, and move to a different world with a different culture. I mean, it's super scary.
Nick:All for a job, you know, basically. So you have to see them as well. You know, it's a two way street.
Tyler:Exactly. And then in that, a might nuance might be is when you're building out the contract to have some some important notes in there. So I've seen it where it's like there needs to be about three months notice between the ending of a contract, especially if your if your residency depends on you having a job, that's super important. Because once that job disappears, you're kind of left floating, I guess.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, then you you're going to be kicked out.
Tyler:Exactly.
Nick:I mean, so that's that's true. Now so if we would summarize the the approach to go from one country to the next, I think the first thing, very important, is to understand the landscape. You know? What language do people speak in the country where I want to go to? What do they value?
Nick:What do designers what type of design work does a designer do over there? Compare it to your language, your culture, and how you're working now, and see if you can spot any gaps. Work on those gaps until you feel confident that you are close enough to a design level and way of working as your, you know, destination that you can start applying. But also look at, you know, the politics stuff. Like, do you need a visa?
Nick:Can you just move? Like, is it within the EU? I'm not sure how it is between Canada and and The United States, but, you know, it's very important to know what type of annoying distractions you will have to face, bureaucracy and that kind of stuff. And then it's all about, like, once that's all done, I think it's more a more equal playing field where all of the previous advice from previous episodes apply. You know, do good work.
Nick:Be a decent human being. Communicate well. Show yourself, etcetera.
Tyler:I think that you nailed it there. It's and the final piece is super important as well. It's just like, make sure you show up as your best self and just show that you're you're an asset, not a liability.
Nick:Yeah. An asset instead of an asshole. Alright. I mean, I I hope that's helpful for Lorac, but also for anyone listening, thinking about relocating. If not, let us know.
Nick:As you know from this episode and previous one, we read comments, and we reply where we can. Next time, we're going to review 2025.
Tyler:That'll be a good one.
Nick:Yeah. It's that time of the year. Yeah. Right? It's the looking back and looking forward time of the year.
Nick:Not sure how much of a reviewing person you are, but I always like to reflect and make goals for the new year. Yeah. Is that something you you do? Or
Tyler:not so much? At the end of the year and then also midyear as well.
Nick:Oh, okay.
Tyler:Nice. A stickler on Jan first specifically, but whenever a new idea comes on my head that'll pivot my personal yearly road map
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:I'll definitely do some reflecting.
Nick:Yeah. So it's going to be a very personal episode, I guess, you know, because I'm also very curious about how 2025 has been for you, you know, career wise. Like, you know, was it better than expected or less or equal and that kind of stuff? But we're also going to zoom out, like, what happened to the design role, to the design landscape. You know?
Nick:And then somewhere next year, we will also do a 2026 episode, but that's a bit down the road. So, yeah, that's it. Looking forward to the next one already. See you next time. Alright.
Nick:See you next time.
Tyler:That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.