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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like you to take a moment, a
moment within this minute to pause,
to organically let yourself be
breathing in and breathing out,
allowing yourself
to organically feel
being present to time,
being present to the deep pause.
And as you witness your body
breathing in and breathing out,
looking at the word.
Revisiting.
Allowing yourself to first
embody the term revisiting.
Breathing in and settling the breath out.
And within this minute, allowing your
emotional heart to take the center
stage, revisiting emotions, swimming
in the experience of everything you
feel, everything you are emoting.
And as you continue to take your
breath in, inviting you now to cradle
yourself by holding your hand on your
heart and one hand on your belly,
integrating your physical body
with your emotional heart.
And once again, revisiting,
breathing in and breathing out as
a sacred witness and no judgment,
allow your thoughts to come online,
watching and witnessing your
consciousness, start to revisit.
And now as you breathe in and breathe out,
encouraging you to take a moment of pause,
a moment of reflection for this moment,
breathing in and breathing out.
Now, I invite you to turn from revisiting
to moving forward,
watching the liminal space, the
space in between of the revisit
and the invitation to move forward,
taking all the time in the world,
simply breathing in and breathing out,
encouraging you at this time
to gently check in with
body, heart, and thoughts,
and once again, within this minute,
opening your eyes when you
feel called to see the room.
Most importantly, to see yourself a little
differently than when you first started.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics,
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression, to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today, I am profoundly grateful to
revisit, to reflect, and welcome Sarah.
Sarah, it's been a minute.
It has.
Like, maybe a year and a half, two years?
How time flies.
I'm so happy to be back here with you.
Yeah, I'm so grateful that we're opening
up, this wonderful platform once again,
and super, super humbled by the openness
and organic nature of this conversation.
All things psychedelic, what's
been on the table lately?
Hmm.
I just, I have to say, I just love
that you just used the word liminal.
That's, that's exactly where I, I,
as, as I was kind of landing with
your meditation, that's exactly
where I was thinking I'm, sort
of in a liminal space, right?
One foot in, one foot out.
Yeah.
And this one foot in, one foot out,
tell me about how you're embodying that,
how you're holding that because I know
recently you had a big, big experience.
Yes.
Yeah, I, I feel like I'm, well,
I feel like I'm still, still
having a big experience, right?
I think we, we have talked before
about that integration is a huge, huge
portion that the experience is, is
just a, just a piece of it and I'm,
I'm, I'm currently gratefully, happily
integrating a, a really wonderful
experience and, and, and landing gently.
You're, speaking about something
super poignant, and before we get into
details of the Big Experience, I want to
pause in this liminal space and really
address and identify what you're saying
beautifully is, you're in it still.
And it's not to say that you're in it
still, but to use the language, can
you assign a meaning of what it means
to be walking with it so graciously?
Well, it takes a lot of intention, right?
I think in my experience of doing
this work, I've not always taken the
precautionary measures to make sure
that I don't, you know, sort of,
kind of combust on re entry, that I,
that I give myself space to, to gradually
come back in and How important that
is and, and to really savor, the, the
juiciness of, of being able to both kind
of easily reconnect with,, the mindset
and the experience of, of the medicine
and also be in, in life, in the, in, in
the world and, and, and being able to be
intentional about what I'm going to do.
To really, the nuggets that I'm really
gonna hold on to and keep in this space.
Yeah, this idea of savory, holding
the juiciness of it all, like,
resonates with me and it also just
symbolizes the importance of knowing
we can't button up, or as you said
so beautifully, we would combust.
I often, I hear it so frequently, that's
the missing element of buttoning up.
healthy aftercare and integration for
a little PSA, is this idea of we're
going to do a huge session, have all
these profound experiences, and then
quickly move back into, you know,
our everyday life and maybe journal a
little bit and have these documented.
But really, that misses the
boat altogether, doesn't it?
Oh, it does.
Yeah.
Can you say more about that?
I mean, so for Without sort
of casting judgment or, or
shame on, on, on my process.
I, I've been in this practice for
four or five years of visiting.
I've been doing medicine work maybe
like twice a year now that on a
schedule just when it feels right.
And, and I've had experiences of sort
of coming back too quickly and maybe,
feeling like I lost something too quickly.
And so, you know, this, this time around
I, I took a lot of proactive measures.
Both around preparation and
also about, like, really giving
myself space for integration.
And it feels, it feels like it was
absolutely the right thing to do.
It feels great.
That's really clarifying to me
and shows just that it doesn't
also take that much effort.
It takes just intentionality.
And I think it's important what I'm
hearing and listening from you is
that intentionality isn't like arduous
when it's done with a motivation to
heal and look at a certain thing.
Is that accurate?
Yeah.
I mean, I suppose, you know,
there's, there's effort.
There's always effort in, in, in making
time, making space for ourselves., and
people, people, you know, some people are
really good about like giving themselves
vacations or, or about setting boundaries
or, for me, this is, this is what I
feel rooted and grounded in saying, this
is for me, this is what I give myself.
And so, I wouldn't say it's not hard.
It's sometimes it's hard, but.
I'm getting better at it.
Can we look at the overall experience
of what you're integrating right now?
And can you share a little bit,
because I know you and I have been
working and supporting you as a
psychedelic integration therapist.
We've processed a lot of your
journeys and share with us what
was most prevalent in this moment.
Well, I feel like I have both
intuition and, and maybe, energetic
guidance around the medicine that
I choose and that choice is not
sort of in an isolated bubble.
I think that my medicine experiences are,
accumulative.
And, what happens in a prior experience
sort of guides me towards what, what I
need to, to do it in, in the next session.
And so in my last session, I think
I had very much set an intention
of, I want to do the hard work.
I want to do really hard work.
And, and I was both by the
nature of the medicine.
Which was psilocybin.
And by what came in, which was,
which was a lot of,
let's see.
I, I don't wanna say pain,
but it was, there was pain.
There was, there was constructive.
Constructive and needed pain.
But, and then ultimately, you know.
We don't know what's a premonition
until we get forward, but ultimately it
became like an insight to things that,
occurred in my real life, about, around
illness and vulnerability and, mortality.
And so, all that to say that coming into
this, this particular medicine work,
I knew that, that the nature of the
medicine and my intention had to be,
around compassion and nurturing
and not necessarily hard, but nice.
Compassion can be hard to access, but,
, something of a very loving nature.
Yeah.
And when I'm hearing you say and
describing is this idea of an undercurrent
of it being a process that you're.
defining to me the holistic
experience as a process.
So no matter if it's a different
medicine or if it's a different
experience that what you're doing right
now is bringing all of it together
and seeing the interfacing of it
differently and yet how it interrelates.
For sure.
Can you say more about that
of what you're learning about
this being a process for you?
Absolutely.
I mean, I think going back to
the idea of, Preparation that, I
think I approached preparation very
differently this time than I have.
Knowing, having, having had
the experiences and sort
of knowing that there are,,
there are themes that often surface
for me, , the question came to
me like, what would happen if I.
Instead of waiting for the medicine
to say, Hey, remember, remember this,
this thing that, that, that hurt, you
know, hurts your heart and, and makes
you feel really, really,, deep things.
What if you had those
difficult conversations now?
And so this is actually the first
time I have, had conversations with
family members It's about the work
that I do and about that I'm going to
do this and, and it seemed huge and
insurmountable and it was actually
quite, I mean, I should, I should trust,
I should trust my loved ones more.
And their trust in me,, but it was,
it was, what a difference it made
to, to have that transparency with
them and, and to be able to say,
Hey, I'm, I'm going to do this work.
And I, and I, and I always
take you in the work with me.
What would it look like for you to
know that and to, for us to have a
really consensual conversation about,
the.
The energy that, that I'm, I'm
bringing to our relationship.
Being on the other side of
that conversation, what are you
learning about your family members?
, that
they trust me more than
I, I gave them credit for.
What's the emotion coming up
right now as you say that?
, just remembering and, and,
and accepting that, that the judgment
that we often feel from others is
just a projection from ourselves.
Yeah, right.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And what I'm hearing you talk
about, there's another keyword that
feels, super important to talk
about, which is intimacy, trust,
but more so relational intimacy.
Can you speak a little
bit about that to me?
Oh, absolutely.
On so many levels.
So certainly
the intimacy about, about the
relationships that we come
back to from medicine work,
is, is huge.
And then there's a lot of intimacy.
in the process of doing the medicine work.
You know, but not inherently when one
of the things that, that I've been
sort of ruminating on, and I might be
taking a little bit of a detour, but
take the detour and let's run with it.
Thank you.
Okay, cool., in the past couple of
days, as I think about moving from
this internal space of integration
to, to, to, To doing some something
like this, like, like connecting and
communicating with the broader community.
I feel really passionate about, being
transparent about the work that I do
and being an advocate for the work.
But I also realize that when I am not
explicit or detailed about the nature
of the work that I may be inadvertently.
Promoting something
that's quite different.
And, and what I mean by that is, is that
I will have conversations with people
about how this work has changed my life.
And what they hear is cool.
Plant medicine work changes lives.
Google ayahuasca ceremony, random group
of people, and they, and they do it
and they come back and go, well, shit.
That was not fun.
That was not good.
And I go, Oh, I need to clarify
the nature of the work that I do.
And the process because not that I'm
prescribing what's right for everyone, but
I know that this work for me wouldn't have
had the life changing impact that it has.
If it were.
done differently.
So doing group work, and, and I even,
you know, I, I have to confess like
sometimes I come back to this question
of like, you know, an opportunity will
present itself like a group of women, in
my orbit will, you know, Be discussing,
like doing medicine work together.
And I think, could I do that?
Could I jump into this,
this group and do the work?
Or, or could I do medicine
work all by myself and
me in the liminal space
that I am right now?
Says, absolutely not.
That's not, that's not for me.
My practice, is so specifically around
the work that I do with my guide.
And then the work that I do
on integration with you and
and everything about the intimacy,
coming back to your question of
intimacy, everything about that
is, is what is so powerful for me.
My guide is not, just an
observer of my experience, but is,
a holder of space, a conduit of energy,
I believe, of healing energy for me,
and the safety and the intimacy of
that is what is so, so healing for me.
That's really well said, and I so
appreciate it, and what I just endorse
is your capacity to see the unique
opportunity to be an advocate, and yet
also know what is your sacred personal
story, and how much is our story, and not
just yours., transparently superposing
it on somebody else because I, I've
seen a lot of really bad stories from
ayahuasca ceremonies coming back and
there's nothing against group ayahuasca
ceremonies, but the depersonalization
and the fragmentation that they're not
ready for does, does say a lot, right?
And so not to go down another rabbit hole
yet, there's a reason why this is therapy
and healing is it's, it's intimate.
And sometimes people aren't,
ready to show some things, right?
There's an incremental way that we heal.
And I think what you're speaking
about regarding process and your
relationship to your medicine work is
it's been incremental and to be where
you are today needed you to uncover,
but also be witnessed in a process in
an a pace that was suitable to you.
And I think that's something that
I'm hearing as an undercurrent
of your conversation too, is this
reflection of it's your pace.
It's your process.
And you're really refining it quite well.
Absolutely.
And, and,
and there's, there is a unique language,
and there is an ongoing story that when
you were, you were coming back, I loved
when you were saying, visiting, it was
just, it was the idea of visiting meaning.
You go there, but you don't
necessarily have to stay there.
But there's when you are working
with someone repeatedly, and you
have visited the same places,
there is a shared language and
understanding, that allows a lot.
And I, and I think, again, not
to say anything disparaging
about Michael Pollan or maps or.
But there is, as, as this work becomes
increasingly visible and discussed,
there is a version that, that sort of
starts to control the narrative of, that
there is, that this is a one and done.
And, and, and, and if, and if that
works for someone, I, you know, again,
no judgment, I missed that boat.
Damn it.
That is not, that is not
my experience at all.
I mean, certainly.
After one time, I was
in a much better place.
And if for some reason I could
never do, have the experience again,
I would be still better for it.
But, the, the, for
me, this is a practice.
Yeah.
, and then also sort of the, the version
of, of the sort of the therapist
with the clipboard behind sort of
a, almost a, a, a metaphorical two
way mirror, you know what I mean?
Of just, witnessing,
again, probably better than nothing,
but seeing, I've seen better.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And I, I don't want to Forget the
value to that everybody's evolving.
So to your point about the one and
done, I don't think it's even physically
possible because what's been uncovered
in one experience will have to, and
you are, you can't put the toothpaste
back in the toothpaste container.
You have to use it.
You have to work with it.
And so also we live on an impermanent
life journey, which is allowing us as
a gift to interface with new reasons
to heal, new reasons to reprocess,
and new reasons to look at things.
So even if I did choose to say, I'm
going to do it once, or advocate for
someone to, yeah, you can do it once
and clear your slate on something.
Well, As I alluded to in the meditation,
there's something in the future
that's going to need processing.
And what I love about the medicine
work and I advocate for is revisiting
it at the cadence that you said so
beautifully, when you can feel it,
to then unpack the certain things
that we're interfacing with today.
And I do agree with you and it's alarming
this idea that, hey, you're going to do
it and then it's going to just be this new
way you're going to walk around and you're
going to be light and love and nothing's
going to interface or bother you.
And that's just a, that's a misnomer.
I agree.
I agree.
And I think maybe it has partly to do
with the focus on end of life, which
is, again, I absolutely advocate for,
but also what about, what about Using
the medicine to be in life, right?
Not, you know what I mean?
Like there's, you know, there's a lot
of focus on, on going back to source
and that's beautiful, but those of us
in those of us living have to also move
back and forth between source and source.
Yeah, and you, you're spot on, and
this idea is very reminiscent of like,
talking about a vacation, getting
excited to go on the vacation, then
when you get to the vacation you're
like trying to like, encapsulate it,
and then by the time you get home
you're like, was I on the vacation?
And what am I using it?
Right?
It's like, thank you for laughing, but
it's like, well, what did that give me?
I think our whole conversation
and what I hear you integrating
so well is how you walk with it.
Can you tell me how do you
walk with it in this moment?
Hmm.
I, this is sacred work and, and also
the mundane is sacred, right?
That, so it's, I, You know, I, I
want to hold this, I want to hold
this in journals and, and, and,
and making artwork and, and, and
hold it in this very special place.
But I also, I think the work for me is to
bring this energy into everything, right?
Even the regular daily life,
bringing that kind of magic in.
The magic and the fun, right?
The magic and the fun.
The fun.
Yeah.
I just, I just went right back there.
Say more.
Please.
You know, you get, you get these sort of
nuggets, these, these flashes of, of, of,
Of being of energy and the memories and,
and, , the one that just came to me is,
laughing, laughing, snort laughing and
thinking, this is the best feeling ever.
Because this is, this is
laughter with abandon.
And, that would be a, a, a beautiful
thing to, to bring into this physical
world and integrate The importance
of, of laughing until you snort.
Yeah, laughing until you
snort, there's the wisdom.
And that's, that's what
we need to walk with.
What are you doing to hold the medicine?
How do you hold it?
You talk about the sacredness.
You talk about the way you're
integrating it in this life.
The magic, how do you hold it now spending
almost five years or so integrating
and using this as a healing modality?
There's stages, right?
This time I really.
created physical space for
myself, space away from my home.
Going to, to a, a beautiful spot where I
could really focus, making arrangements
to take care of my body., so that I could
come into my body in a more gentle way.
And then I'll have a
few more days of that.
And then, and then, then there's
the work of, of, of keeping.
And so, I will, I, I find that my
dream work and my dream journaling is a
really effective way of, of continuing
to capture, information coming in and,
and integration therapy And having
conversations and, and giving myself
opportunities for the, the little,
those little energetic
bursts of, of, of memory.
And also, I can't, I love, I
love that you said reflection.
I was by the water the other day and
was capturing pictures of the sky in
the water in pools of water and, and.
And in my mind, titling these
pictures, Reflection, the, the,
the double entendre of that, yeah.
It's quite, it's magic.
Tell me, what is Sarah doing to be gentle
with herself in this moment, within
this minute, and as you walk forward?
I'm,
I'm thinking about what if the landing
doesn't, what if there isn't hard ground?
What if, what if it's just a constant
aggressive sinking and permeating and
then that helps me visualize that I can,
I can keep this going and, and then,
and then I'm not afraid of it ending.
You know, there's always a little
bit of, of like, what if I, I stop
feeling this, this great, this magical,
and maybe it doesn't have to stop.
Yeah, I don't think it does.
Well, and we always have the nursing
home where they're going to prescribe it.
I will invest in that immediately.
Sign me up.
It's so great to hear you.
It's so great to be present with you.
I'm humbled by my invitation to be a
part of your life and you accepting it.
Thank you.
Thank you, Ryan.
Thank you for this opportunity to
connect and reflect.