My Twin The Murderer: MK-ULTRA, Psychedelics, & Twin Identity | Lindsay Kent

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In this raw, unfiltered episode of True Life Podcast, Lindsay Kent blows the doors off the psychedelic renaissance with zero fucks given.

Award-winning filmmaker, author, and full-throttle psychonaut Lindsay Kent joins George Monty to discuss her mind-shattering novel My Twin the Murderer — a psychedelic thriller, philosophical mindfuck, literary prank, and gonzo history lesson rolled into one. Think Ken Kesey crashing Carl Jung’s library while Hunter S. Thompson laughs in the corner.

From dosing on the Further bus with the Merry Pranksters, to wrestling with twin identity, ego death, OCD transformation, and the raw chaos of altered states, Lindsay holds nothing back. She explores the dark duality of psychedelics — medicine and poison — the war on consciousness, MKUltra blowback, cognitive liberty, and why fiction might be the most powerful Trojan horse for these conversations.

This episode rips apart sanitized medical narratives and calls out the hype, control freaks, and spiritual bypassing in the psychedelic space. Lindsay dives deep into storytelling as rebellion, Joseph Campbell’s mythic lens, grief as teacher, the illusion of identity, and why suffering is optional even when pain is not.

Expect unapologetic truth on:

•  Psychedelic fiction vs. dry science

•  Twin dynamics, alter egos, and fractured identity

•  Responsible use vs. reckless freedom

•  The sacred in the profane — and why the house doesn’t always win

•  Integration, ego dissolution, and letting go of the stories that chain us

If you’re a psychonaut, seeker, rebel, or anyone tired of corporate wellness bullshit trying to own consciousness, this conversation will rearrange the furniture in your mind.

Lindsay Kent isn’t here to sell you safety theater or magic bullets. She’s here to remind you that these substances have always been about freedom, myth, humor, and waking the fuck up.

Grab My Twin the Murderer and prepare to have your reality politely (then violently) questioned.

Keywords & Search Terms: Psychedelics, Psychedelic Fiction, My Twin the Murderer, Lindsay Kent, Merry Pranksters, Ken Kesey, Psychedelic Renaissance, Cognitive Liberty, Ego Death, Twin Identity, Joseph Campbell, Psychedelic Integration, Altered States, Psychonaut, MKUltra, Consciousness Expansion, Psychedelic History, Fiction as Medicine

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This  content  is for educational and informational purposes only. Nothing in this transmission constitutes legal, financial, or professional advice. I am not your lawyer, financial advisor, or telling you what to do.

This podcast documents historical events, analyzes publicly available information, and explores hypothetical scenarios. Any actions discussed are presented as educational examples of how systems work—not as instructions or recommendations.

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Creators and Guests

Host

George Monty

My name is George Monty. I am the Owner of TrueLife (Podcast/media/ Channel) I’ve spent the last three in years building from the ground up an independent social media brandy that includes communications, content creation, community engagement, online classes in NLP, Graphic Design, Video Editing, and Content creation. I feel so blessed to have reached the following milestones, over 81K hours of watch time, 5 million views, 8K subscribers, & over 60K downloads on the podcast!

What is TrueLife?

What happens when a scientist, a mystic, and a comedian walk into your nervous system and refuse to leave? TrueLife is speculative audio that takes the most dangerous ideas in neuroscience, consciousness, and human potential — and makes them impossible to unhear. Fictional compounds. Real mechanisms. Experiences that don’t have names yet. For the seekers, the rebels, and everyone who has ever suspected that reality is significantly stranger than advertised.

George (00:03.604)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. Hope you're having a beautiful day. Hope the sun is shining, the birds are singing, the wind is at your back. Ladies and gentlemen, there are books you read, there are books that read you, and then there are books that quietly rearrange the furniture in your mind. Today's guest has written one of those books. She's an award-winning filmmaker, author, and unapologetic student of consciousness, whose work dances at the intersection of psychedelic, psychology, myth.

Comedy, grief, and the strange architecture of being human. Her latest novel is Equal Parts Thriller, Philosophical Inquiry, Psychedelic History Lesson, and Literary Prank. It's the kind of story that feels like Ken Casey wandered into Carl Jung's library and refused to leave until someone turned it into fiction. I'm thrilled to welcome Lindsay Kent to the show. Lindsay, thank you so much for being here today. How are you?

lindsay (00:56.527)
George, I'm so stoked to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

George (01:02.382)
My twin the murderer. It's so good, Lindsay. It's so good. And for some of my fans out there and the people that have that have hung out, like I've looked at all your different channels, but I was wondering if you give us a little bit of background on how the book came to be, wherever you want to take it.

lindsay (01:07.451)
Thanks, man.

lindsay (01:17.549)
Absolutely. so I have been making documentary films for most of my career. I started about twenty years ago, right out of film school, thinking that I was going to go into unit production management. And then if if folks are following along with with the strikes that just happened, there was a writer's strike back in two thousand seven and that completely changed my entire career.

So I went into editing doc documentaries after I had moved to Hawaii to work on Lost and then the ri the writer's strike canceled filming. So I never worked a day on that show. So I started working in documentaries and I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with the power of editing because when you're working in documentaries, the entire directing process happens in the edit. You don't really know what you have as a story until you've sat down in the edit and scrubbed through a hundred hours of interviews.

George (01:44.759)
Nah.

lindsay (02:08.737)
sometimes and I realized pretty quickly that that was my superpower that I could you know put together a really coherent and emotional story through that process and actually inspire change. I realized very very early on in my career that if you grip people emotionally, that's how you can make them or inspire them to shift their attitude about certain ideas. And I was like, the power of this. Wow.

What can I do? Like what what kind of stories do I want to tell? How how do I want to impact you know perception in in that way? And so that's kind of how how things started for me. And then the first time that I directed a documentary, it was about the 50th anniversary of the further bus. And hopefully a lot of your listeners know a little bit about that history and about the bus. But I was just a like a literary nerd.

In college. Like I wasn't into The Grateful Dead. I'd never tried LSD. I just had read Cuckoo's Nest. I read a lot of Kerouac. I read, you know, electrocholid acid test. And so I knew that this bus trip happened. And I was always just so obsessed about the idea of being a fly on the wall and having been on that infamous trip. And then a friend sent me this Kickstarter campaign. Isn't this that bus you're always talking about? Like what what's going on?

And I learned that Zane Keasey, Ken's son, was getting the bus back on the road. And anyone in the world could donate to get the bus back on the road and become a new Merry Prankster and get on one week of a 10-week tour. And I was like, holy shit, this is amazing. I have to do this. This is what I have to do. So I hadn't talked to Zayn about making a movie. I found out later that he had offers from Vice, History Channel, Nat Geo. Like everyone wanted to get on the bus and make a dock and

Zane's like, no, absolutely not. He wanted full control, which worked out in in our favor. Two guys from Canada had the exact same idea. But of course, they reached out to Zane first. I did not. I just grabbed my camera, showed up in Madison, Wisconsin, and thought, what the hell? Let's see what happens. And we were on and off the bus for three months. I traveled around the country for almost a year after that, meeting all of the original pranksters.

lindsay (04:31.343)
That were still alive, including like Wavy Gravy, who was obviously the MC Woodstock and runs the ran the hog farm, Ken Babs, George Walker, all of the the folks that are still with us. and it became a a you know, real a proper movie. We toured around the world with it in 2016. but through that process, I kind of started become a bit of a hi of a psychedelic historian, you know, learning a lot about the

How Key Z got his start, why, you know, how, you know, MK Ultra was kind of responsible, inadvertently responsible for the counterculture movement because they were trying to control people's minds with acid. And so for the past 10 plus years, I've just been diving deeper and deeper into some of this lore. And I set out to write a pilot for a show because that's my background, is making TV. And when I showed it to my twin sister.

George (05:05.789)
Mm-hmm.

lindsay (05:28.423)
She said, Well, this is really interesting, but I think you know way too much about this now. You should you should make this into a book. And I hemmed and hawed and avoided it as long as I could. And I just sat down and and tried. So yeah, that was the that was the start of it for sure.

George (05:48.354)
Feel like that story is so such a it's such a critical part because when I read the book, there is so much incredible information, not only about like the history of psychedelics, but the attitude towards it, like some of the ideas that people were having at that time. And for me, as someone who has like a giant.

love affair and a long relationship with drugs and psychedelics. Like I I felt at times like, this person gets it. This is a person who not only has researched or written or talked about psychedelics, but has like a firm relationship with them. And for me, it was almost like this aha moment where like psychedelics is back. Psedelic fiction is back. This is the underground re-emerging into the culture right now. And all these kids are going to read this. And the fact that it was about twins and you're a twin.

People should know this in the book, obviously, My Twin the Murderer. But there are some real interesting insights and like what it's like to be a twin and alter egos. And I couldn't I couldn't help but think to myself, like, how much of this story is not imagination, but remembering? Maybe you could speak to that a little bit.

lindsay (06:55.563)
Ooh. So first of all, as a twin, I think that the public perception of twins is really wrong. Like they're either super hot, you know, sex pots or, you know, the twins in the shining, like a, you know, horror stick. It's one or the other. Like they're there are two polar opposite sides, and no one ever talks about like what it it actually is like to have a walking talking replica of you.

George (07:00.919)
Yeah.

George (07:12.844)
Yeah.

lindsay (07:25.017)
That also like has completely different values and beliefs and attitudes about things. Like, yeah. So if you're an identical twin versus a fraternal twin, that means that at one point in your existence, you were once one thing. You were a zygote that was supposed to be one person. And to this day, scientists still don't know why it splits. It's like, it's basically like a defect that creates two people. And it's really

wild to have someone in your life that that is so different and yet has all of the same memories as you. Like one of the things that is is really trippy is that both of us have memories from our childhood where it could only have happened to one of us, but we both believe it was us. Like I think it was me and she thinks it was her. It could only definitely be one of us. So one of us is, you know, hallucinating the whole thing. No drugs needed. And so it's a it's a very

Interesting dynamic to explore in a book because it's like being face to face with someone that can be your best friend or your enemy. They know exactly how to tear you apart and tear you down, but also how to save you when you're at your worst. And so these twins in the book haven't spoken in in years. They bring out the worst in in each other.

But then they are forced to rely on each other and figure out what's really going on before it's too late. And so all of their trauma, all of their crap from from years and years of having to deal with each other starts starts to come up. And a lot of that is from my experience. You know, my sister and I are very, like very, you know, close now, but we went through years where we were definitely not, definitely on completely different pages and just, you know, spend weeks where we wouldn't talk.

now I'm so grateful that we run a production company together. She's an award-winning screenwriter. So she was definitely the first person that I showed the first draft to. I'm like, Am I crazy? Is this any good? Please be honest. Because I knew she would be, even if it hurt. She'd be like, Lindsay, this is dog shit. Like, you need to just take some lessons or something. Like, wow. but she loved it and inspired me to keep going. So yeah, it's such a fun, layered.

George (09:34.209)
Yeah.

lindsay (09:46.384)
l like l like a really deep layered relationship to explore. I mean, this is going to be a four book series. This is just book one. I think you probably noticed with the cliffhanger at the end that there's some space to kind of explore some other fun twin related things in in books two and beyond. but yeah, it was it's just been a really fun challenge to to write those two heroines.

George (09:59.777)
Yeah.

George (10:16.129)
You did a fantastic job. Are are you are you Evie or are you Vivian?

lindsay (10:24.339)
I'm my sister and I are definitely a little bit of both, but I'm a hundred percent a lot more Evie than she is. and she like it was much easier to write Vivian than Evie, though, because Vivian is a hundred percent my sister with her attitude. My sister has that super dry, snarky, witty, like she's always gotta come back. And and so

George (10:27.629)
Okay.

lindsay (10:51.055)
That has just really, really flowed. It's continuing to flow as I'm working on book two right now. Evie has OCD and I do have I do have OCD. she has a much worse, much more intense version of that than I do. but that was a fun thing to explore because psychedelics for me have shifted my relationship with OCD. And so that was a really fun thing to explore in a in a book is

You know, this is written in first person point of view and present tense, because I wanted people to be with her as she's going through these experiences, basically against her will at this point. But how she starts to question things during the trip and then afterward, and then how things start to shift for her in terms of the debilitating issues that she's that she's dealing with. because those are those those are definitely a reflection of what I've experienced in in my own life.

Yeah.

George (11:56.084)
One there were so many great parts about this book. And if you're listening to this right now, just on the audio, the book is called My Twin the Murderer. Pick it up. It'll it's mind blowing. It's one of the best books I've read in the last five years. And I'm saying that because it's true. You know, you tackle some pretty big subjects in here too. It's it's fucking awesome, ladies and gentlemen. Check it out. You'll love it. You'll love it. But you question like you tackle some pretty big stuff in here. You know, there's talks about suicide. There is radical moments of chaos in which people lose their identity.

Identity seems like a big one in this book too, but maybe you could speak to the idea of that doesn't sound like imagination to me, Lindsay. That sounds like remembering. And when I hear about you being on the bus and talking to people and doing the work that you do, like those are some pretty big issues to tackle with psychedelics and and identity or suicide. Like, how did that come about?

lindsay (12:47.011)
Absolutely. So I think where I want to start with that question is the idea of storytelling in general. And this is what on my book tour I've been talking a lot about. Because, you know, first of all, externally, the conversation around these drugs have just shifted like a roller coaster for the past hundred years. People don't even know that the war on drugs started back with Harry, you know, Anslinger back in the in the nineteen thirties, changing the word cannabis to marijuana.

George (12:53.965)
Mm.

lindsay (13:15.725)
If all of this was intentional, right? And so our relationship to how we how we perceive these drugs has shifted because of storytelling. But how I have been ending these talks is talking about our our stories. the stories that we tell ourselves, because if psychedelics have taught me anything consistently, it's that whenever I'm in a, you know, a heavy trip, the the question usually, you know, comes up with.

you think you're this? Well, well, what if you're not? What if I just take it and move that all over here and all of this is in a corner and you're still here living and you know, breathing in and out? Then who who are you and and you know, what are you? And those can be really disorienting moments, but also so freeing because when I come out of that, the integration process for me is going, Well, which of these stories is actually serving me? And and you know, which ones aren't? And through my own experience,

with you know anxiety and you know depression and and with people around me and especially attending retreats where people have some very heavy you know trauma that they are moving through. What I realized through my my experiences is that pain is not optional. Everyone experiences pain. But suffering is our relationship and the story to that pain. And that concept

became not only a concept, but something that that I experienced so fully that now I know without a shadow of a doubt that suffering is optional for me. To where when it when I get when I experience pain or I get triggered, I can consciously ask myself, is this for me? Do I need to continue to hold on to this or not? And I think that everyone should have access to that level of awareness.

Because there's a level, there is a layer of peace below that story that we all should be able to have access to. And so in this book, I wanted to explore some of the really heavy things that people are going through the and who are turning to psychedelics intentionally. Like in the book, it's a thriller. The experiences that these characters have may not be something that they intentionally go sit in a retreat and do.

George (15:30.253)
Right.

lindsay (15:37.168)
But, you know, there are characters who are suffering from addiction and depression and anxiety and, you know, PTSD. And so I wanted to explore, like, you know, for for folks who may be suffering from, you know, similar issues who may never have thought about psychedelics or have had a a very specific attitude about that story to invite them to think about things, you know, differently. And so that became

That became a huge part of why I wanted to, you know, write this. And and to write this as fiction, because first of all, I am an expert in nothing. Nothing but storytelling. I am not the person who has a PhD in nada. Okay. So writing a memoir or a nonfiction book, please, like no one's gonna read that from me. But I think fiction is such a wonderful, un unexplored, you know, avenue for some of these conversations because.

When people sit down to watch a documentary or read a nonfiction book, they already kind of have their guard up. They are expecting you to kind of point a finger and say, This is for you. You should know this stuff, right? But in fiction, it's like you you can be carried along by some really amazing characters and you and just lose yourself hopefully in a good story and feel something from that story. Even if it's talking about, you know, heavy things, it's just a story, right? And so

I think that's such a fun like backdoor way into this room that I would love to explore more. Like I want this to be a movie or a, you know, TV series. You know, I want there to be more myth, you know, more of the Joseph Campbell side of this, you know, conversation. And because also when you're talking about what, you know, tripping is, it can tend to get really dry when we're only focing focusing on the science side of it.

And sometimes it's totally bananas and and silly and absurd and weird and wild. And, you know, I I want more of the Keyesian side of the conversation to start coming back and being a part of this. And so again, fiction is such a wonderful tool to be able to explore that. And so yeah, I'm kind of trying to bring some of that gonzo vibe back back into the fray here.

George (17:42.636)
Yeah.

George (17:57.07)
When I read about Maxwell in a three-piece peach suit with an art vark on a chain and a glass eye that has a chemical compound tattooed on it, I was like, dude, no way! Like just the visual of that. And I think that speaks to the idea of fiction, where like in my own mind, I probably have a radically different idea of someone else's Maxwell out there.

But it's that kind of writing that really grips people and pulls them in. And it's like, wait, I think I've seen something like this at Spirit Rhino one time, or like, I think I've seen something like this once, you know? But that kind of writing really kind of jumped out at me out there. And that that brings me to character development. Like the all the characters are really well rounded. And it's sometimes I'm like, I'm not gonna like the detective. But then I almost cried when I saw what the detective went through. I'm like, my God.

She's gone. She's gone. She's never coming back. He loved her so much. You know, it's brilliant in there. And I know you've spoken about Joseph Campbell a little bit, and I want to talk more about that. But can we talk a little bit about character development? Like, are these people that you've known, are these people on the bus? Are they an amalgamation of your parents and friends and cool people that you've saw that you've made up? How did the character development work for you?

lindsay (19:07.481)
Yeah. I think from from the point of view of of of who these people are, some of them I've had in the back of my brain for years. Like like Jade is me in certain contexts. My my my Alter ego's name is Jade and she surfaced in my early twenties when some moron at a bar asked me my name and I'm like Jade Alan Qua. And that just became

George (19:35.213)
Ha ha ha.

lindsay (19:36.1)
might be the name I would give people. and and so I, you know, I I had some folks in in in my mind and then some of them, like Maxwell, it was just like pop when I was writing the this as a as a pilot, like just fully baked visually who who who who this person is. And then in terms of the characteristic the characteristics that I gave them,

I kind of worked backwards from the issues I wanted them to go through and which side of the conversation they were on. besides the twins, which are we we've already talked about, that very easy for me to write because there was so much of me and my sister in those characters. But in terms of the attitudes of some of these folks, a lot of it came from the the conversation we're having today in the psychedelic, you know, renaissance about who who is going to control what.

and who wants to be on which side of of that, you know, conversation. And then working backwards of like what would make these people really interesting in terms of like what their underlying ego agenda is. You know, Maxwell, you kind of find a out a little bit about his backstory and why he may be wanting revenge and, you know, to like get out there and screw things up for for it for for the world. and I think that real is really well reflected in terms of

George (20:47.315)
Totally.

lindsay (20:59.685)
How we are seeing people fight for access and stuff today. It's like, yeah, there might be someone, you know, being an e ev evangelist for something over here, but they may have an agenda based on what they've, you know, been through. Everything is layered, everything is, you know, nuanced. There's a lot more, you know, going on. And I also wanted to explore, I mean, I think the biggest theme of this book and the and the next books is duality. It's like, yes, the the this might be the bad guy, but like, is he totally the bad guy?

George (21:28.129)
Right.

lindsay (21:29.699)
If he really believes that he's doing the, you know, right thing and, you know, and and these are the things that he's fighting for, can you also root for him a little bit? You know? And that's and that's kind of where I I wanted to take them. And I love Shot. Shot, yeah, I mean, he's the guy who's there to, you know, arrest them and just try to, you know, figure out what's what's going on. But this is a three, it's mostly a three-person POV throughout. And so it's

George (21:47.404)
Yeah.

lindsay (21:58.618)
Mostly Evelyn and Shot, and then it turns to Vivian later. so because I got to expand so much on him, his he just kind of started to talk to me as I as I wrote. I mean, with this with the second book that I'm working on now, I'm outlining myself into like oblivion because there's so much I don't understand that I have to learn. But with with this one, I was much more of a pantser, as they call it, where I just sat down and and wrote it chapter by chapter. And so his internal monologue, he was just talking to me.

which was really cool. That's never happened when I have have written screenplays before. So that was really fun. But then the dad character, which we have a few scenes where we're we go back in time and, you know, we get to see the relationship that Evie has with her, with her dad William. That was fully based on my dad. My dad passed away in 2007 from hepatitis C. And

Before he passed, he had like dementia-like symptoms, which some people don't even know is one of the side effects of severe hep C. And so when you watch someone do like deteriorate like that, he was in his early 50s, right? It was he's a very young guy. that really stays with you. It's something that my sister and I have both written about pretty extensively in some of the screenplays that we've written, because it's like it just it doesn't go away. You still remember certain things. and so I wanted

To add that in because there's so much about this book that's about memory and who you are without it. Because like my dad was still my dad, he was still there. But like he all of the all of the things that made him like who he was in his mind were were gone at at you know, one point. And so I think that's such a fun and and hard and challenging and strange concept.

to explore with psychedelics because they're like we were talking about, you know, earlier about what makes you, you, who you are. When you're on a trip and all of that goes away, all of those stories go away and you're still there. It's the same thing. It it's like, okay, well, if I am not my memories and I'm not my mind, then what am I? And that question is just, you know, kind of the fulcrum of of who I am. And I started asking it way back then before I had tried anything. And so yeah, there are some, there are some people that are fully based on on

George (23:59.566)
Yeah.

lindsay (24:16.463)
the people in my life and then others that came through through in in different ways.

George (24:23.885)
I'm sorry that that happened to your dad. I experience has taught me though, the closer to death you get,

George (24:36.331)
Like the more beautiful it gets. And I don't mean that like in a negative way, but like if if people are being honest and you've to had enough time to integrate and you've had enough time to be around it, like it's probably the best teacher in the world. And on some level, psychedelics, they they stimul they not stimulate, but they simulate that. Like part of you dies. Or if I look at people in addiction that I've spoken to, or people that have real that have real transformation, or even Joseph Campbell, like part of you has to die.

lindsay (24:40.571)
What do you mean?

George (25:05.739)
in for in order for you to transform. Like we see it in all the Homeric verses. We see it in so many myths everywhere. And if you're being honest with yourself, if you've had someone that you love die, part of you dies with them. But there's there's something grows back there. It's I don't know. It what are your thoughts on that, on the idea of death in psychedelics?

lindsay (25:25.435)
Absolutely. and I and and I think in my experience that, you know, anyway, death kind of throws into sharp relief what you've been been hanging on to that doesn't serve you. No, no drugs required. I mean, when that happened in in the life of me and my siblings back then, it it you know brought us closer for years because we're like, why why are we fighting about this stupid stuff? and it reminds you that.

George (25:37.505)
Yeah.

George (25:47.787)
Yeah.

lindsay (25:51.396)
Nothing it lasts, as Ken Keasey would say. That was one of his favorite things to say. and this is all impermanent. And how do I want to spend it while I'm here? Because one day that's going to happen to me in a different way. but what I what I really love about challenging trips, and I have had my share, and I'm sure I will have more of them, is that in the middle of it, I can be like, I want off this bus. I can't do this. Can't do this.

George (25:54.935)
Yeah.

lindsay (26:19.117)
Usually it's with ayahuasca in the jungle and it's just way too much and there's just too much going on. And I'm overwhelmed. And I'm like, I I I can't do this. I I really can't do this. And there's this little voice in the back of my head that says, Yes, you can. You're just gonna keep breathing in and out, in and out. And before you know it, you're gonna be laying on your mat. And this part will be over, but there's nowhere to go and there's nothing to do but be in this right now and breathe in and out.

And I think that's such a wonderful attitude for grief, too, because we tend to reach for things to suppress it instead of feeling it, instead of just being in it. We don't really live in a society that encourages us to be uncomfortable. Where we live in a society that wants us to be to to just be distracted all the time and never be uncomfortable with anything. And grief is very disorienting and uncomfortable. But

George (27:05.869)
Mm.

lindsay (27:19.631)
The only way to move through it is to sit in it. There is, there's nothing else you can do but be willing to go and sit in that really dark place and be really un uncomfortable and and be with yourself there. And maybe there are some wonderful people in your life that can hold space for that and be with you. But that for me, with the people that that I've lost, I have to move through it like that. And I think that being

having spent that time with psychedelics and been that uncomfortable, that has built my res my my resilience to be able to withstand that pain and to be and to sit, you know, in it and, you know, be with it. It's I actually wrote about it on my Substack because I think it's it's such a beautiful parallel to going really to that dark place and being that un uncomfortable because I do think that we all have that voice saying it's all right.

It's all right to be here right now. You're still breathing in and out. And eventually you will you'll be okay and you'll smile again and you'll enjoy the sunshine and you'll be present and it's it will be okay. But right now you have to just sit here and it's gonna suck. Yeah.

George (28:38.546)
There's something about taking a large enough dose. You know, I I think it was Terrence McKinnon who said, if you take a dose and you don't immediately say, shit, I took too much, I think I'm gonna die, then you haven't taken enough. But there's this idea that if you take a large enough dose, you lose control. And I have found in my relationship with psychedelics, like it's that release of like, okay, it's out of my hands. Like that.

moment of letting go. It's like for a moment you get this deep breath and nothing else matters. Like you let go. And it speaks to what you were talking about in psychedelics. Like

It's it's this letting go of everything around you that frees you. And you we don't get it in in everyday life. We have all these things yelling at us, whether it's the TV or these irrational expectations of who we should be, or the radio, or all these people that need us. Like we never fully let go. And psychedelics, they'll rip your hands off the wall, like you're leaving. And it's it's so much coming, coming to grips with that, this idea of of letting go. Anna.

But I think that there's sort of a paradox there because everybody talks about safety and psychedelics, but you have to let go. Can safety and psychedelics coexist together? What are your thoughts on that?

lindsay (29:55.484)
Absolutely. I I I do. I I I think that for my own work, there has been a lot more of the key intensity, sometimes inadvertently. I mean, one time I took 1500 micrograms instead of 300, and that was a time. but it ended up being one of the most powerful, potent moments of of my life. But I'm certainly not gonna go around telling everyone that they should do that because it's not.

George (30:11.531)
Ha ha ha.

lindsay (30:24.315)
For everyone. And I think I think that safety is is extremely important in parallel with the conversation around how complex and nuanced these are, because the experiences of psychedelics are as varied as humans. Like what I have have experienced and what has worked for me and changed my life is not gonna be what happens for you or for anyone else. And some people who have been through some very significant trauma.

George (30:46.893)
Right.

lindsay (30:54.189)
need a lot of care and a lot of safety. and so I I think it's really, really my my my whole thing about this this part of the conversation is like, can we just kind of take the foot off the gas a little bit and have more nuanced con you know conversation and talk about and and hold more people accountable for the choices that they are making in terms of just like, let's just get this out there and move, move, move and and we'll just leave this this, you know, part out because we just really want to get this out there.

We need more authentic, nuanced truth telling across the board and and to and to respect different opinions about this stuff as well. Like we we aren't all going to agree. But I think my concern is that because of how how quickly we're moving, we may set ourselves back again because there will be some fallout and some and some mistakes made that you can't take back, and then everyone will want to roll up the you know carpet and not talk about these for another 50 years.

And I would hate for that to happen because they have absolutely 100% changed my my life, my world. and I but I also know people that that have had experiences where they'll never be they'll never be the same again because the safety parameters weren't there. And so it's a it's a very complex, difficult, challenging, it it it it takes time, you know, right? And the and the other side of that is.

While we're having safety, while we're we're offering responsible medical opportunities for people who really need this for mental health, the other side of the the of of that is I didn't need it for my mental health. I w I I took these substances for the past f you know, 15 years because I wanted to understand my own mind. and so cogn you know, c you know, cognitive li you know, cognitive liberty is such a crucial part of human existence. And it has been for

a millennia. And so that part of the conversation, even though yes, it's it's not the same as treating, you know, or or it might not be seen as as important as treating anxiety and, you know, depression and PTSD. I think for our evolution as a species, we need access to these substances for people who are who are ready. But also there should be at you know education.

lindsay (33:15.493)
you know, taking five grams and going to a rave, like there might be some fallout, like there might be some things you don't like about that experience and here's why, you know. maybe that's for you, maybe it's not for you. so yeah, more more nuance and just understanding how how how chall how layered and complex these issues are, I think. Yeah.

George (33:39.659)
Yeah. I I'm curious, as someone who who got to spend some time with the the Merry Pranksters, the Neo Pranksters, and be on the bus and your relationship with all of the friends that you have, what do you think are some of the major similarities and the differences from the last wave of psychedelics and the current one?

lindsay (33:58.554)
Yeah, I think you know, the and this is in the electro-coolate acid test when the bus showed up at Timothy Leary's house and Tim and Timothy Leary wouldn't come down. And the, you know, Keyesy and the bus balked. Like, how dare he think he's better than us? Side note, I ended up talking to Ram Doss directly before he passed and found out the truth. They were all on speed and Leary and and all of his and and and the entire house of Millbrook were

coming off a four-day acid bender. And they're like, there was just no way we were going to be able to communicate. I was like, I got the real story. my God. Such an amazing moment. but I think that, you know, there were there even on the Leary side of things where they were, they were, you know, running, they were doing research and they were running experiments, and, you know, kind of looking at things as a in a bit more mystical way.

George (34:33.537)
Yeah.

lindsay (34:55.813)
There was still a lot of, you know, let's just have, you know, parties and do whatever we want. But on the key side of things, it was like, let's just dose the, you know, trash can punch and then forget to tell people which one is dosed. And people have no, you know, idea what it's like to trip. And then they they come and they drink the, you know, Kool-Aid thinking it's Kool-Aid. Right. And so, back then I feel like we were finger painting because no one really knew what what could happen. And today.

George (35:04.683)
Yeah.

lindsay (35:25.615)
Like we have brushes, we have tools, we have, we have, you know, ways to understand what they can do a bit better. but I also think what's being lost in that attempt to like map the psychedelic experience through research and science is that some things can't be mapped because consciousness goes beyond what we understand as science. Like what, like what, what my what

you know, mushrooms show me and how they they impact my my life. I can tell you about it. I can tell you how it made me feel, and maybe you can just keep track of how it makes me feel and and what what my my, you know, attitudes are, but you can't map why that happened, how that happened, what it triggered in me, how it made me feel. Because we don't live in an in an a a

in an objective universe. We live in a s in a subjective one. There's absolutely no way for me to know how you perceive green. And if it's the same way I I see it, right? There's absolutely no way for us to know that. So there's going to be like there are are always going to be to be, you know, limits to what we can see and you know perceive and and and create, you know, data from. And I think that that, you know, coming back to, you know,

Campbell and Myth. It's like it's such a a more fun way to talk about how surreal and crazy and and devastating and fascinating these experiences are. Because you can point like a proxy, like point at them through storytelling and you can make people feel something, but you can't ever know exactly what that was like for that person. That's why it's so complicated to try to tell people.

what it was like in that, you know, ayahuasca dream, like what happened? You come back and you try to explain it to me. And, you know, folks are like, wow, okay, good for you. That's weird. You know, it's impossible to fully translate it. And so I would love to see, you know, at psychedelic science and some of these other, you know, events, more conversations around around storytelling, around myth, around humor.

lindsay (37:42.308)
You know, I wrote an article for High Times about humor as an integration tool because it's been such an important one for me. I mean, it's like in as we were talking about, like, you know, in the the, you know, darkest times of of of my life, the thing that got me through always was making jokes and laughing. Always, always, always. And that's the same thing with with the trip. Like sometimes I see some really batshit stuff and it makes me laugh and it makes me, you know, feel things.

George (37:55.426)
Yeah.

lindsay (38:11.909)
and that side of the conversation is way down here compared to the conversation around how can we best map what's what's really happening and you know create these as you know medicines. and so I would like to see a more balanced Keyesian side of the of the storytelling conversation. That does not mean that I recommend dosing the punch or anything like that. Responsibility, guys. but I think that

George (38:36.279)
Yeah.

lindsay (38:41.795)
you know, these substances are also a blast and they're also weird and and funny. I love that, you know, Dennis Walker gets that and he started this, you know, retreat. you know, and I think that's so awesome. I think he there are going to be others who follow suit, hopefully. yeah. So I that's the part of the of the the, you know, balance shift that I would like to see change a bit.

George (39:04.747)
Yeah, I agree. It's it's interesting to see first off I'm grateful to even be a part of it and and see this world of psychedelics emerging. But sometimes I wonder about that the medical containers is like too constricting. You know, when you look at the medical container like the DSM, like you just see all these ailments and sometimes I wonder if s many of these ailments and I'm not talking about people that have serious debilitating disease, but maybe some people could be served with like

three grams a joint in a concert. Maybe that could be just as good as going to a someone to to tell the to tell your problems to. Like if you just had a really good friend and a really good time and had some awesome jokes and saw like a good show, like that might that might go a long way in in fixing some issues out there. But you know there's some other parts too that when I was reading through some of these lines, there was a quite a few that stuck out with me.

Freedom with uncertainty is richer than comfort in chains. I think that speaks volumes of who Lindsay is. Is that fair to say?

lindsay (40:06.395)
Yeah. That was Maxwell. That was Maxwell. yeah, I mean, like, and and there's definitely some of what Maxwell believes that is what I, you know, believe. You know, I think he's obviously taking it to like a 12 out of 10 in a lot of ways. He just, you know, he just sees this as a as a revolution. Damn the consequences. But it's fascinating to me.

George (40:10.361)
Yeah.

lindsay (40:35.493)
How much the conversation around these substances is about control. When we've already been there, we bought that t-shirt, right? Like MK Ultra tried to do that. Like, hello, here we are. we know what happened. it's like to me, when I hear about some of these people trying to, you know, patent things like set and setting, I'm like, I think you need to do more drugs. Just like you need

George (40:56.097)
Yeah. Totally.

lindsay (40:59.099)
When you have these experiences, you realize like how insane it is to try to control anything, how like life is like it's impossible to control. And then you develop a different, you know, relationship with your ego too, where you're going, why do I have to do this where it where I make all this money and and I own this so that other people so that other people can't have have the access that they need. That's insane. You know, like there's there are just things that psychedelics teach you. I mean, of course, this is where we're at, because I think as a society.

our level of you know consciousness as we're s as we're fighting to get to a higher one, all of the worst parts of this level of consciousness are coming up and being reflected. And like, you know, policy and and you know, media and arguments and, you know, conversations, it's all getting whipped up just like it does when, you know, you've s you know started to wake up and then your ego just starts like throwing the worst things at you. Like, yeah, you think you're so enlightened. How about this? You know, like it's the same thing.

George (41:54.413)
Yeah.

lindsay (41:58.112)
We're just experiencing on a it on a you know human scale level, which is fine. I have to to for my own sanity have to keep like a macro, like above ground view about what we're all going through right now, or I will lose my mind. but I think that that is is you know part of it. I think I I am a a glass half full kind of less, which you would probably guess. and so I think in the not too distant future.

we're going to look back at at that at this time and laugh at how we were trying to how how we were like had all this, you know, infighting over like who gets to, you know, own this experience and like who should have, you know, access to it and who shouldn't. Like LOL. everyone's growing mushrooms in their house now and we and we all have a different relationship with our own minds. And so we are a little bit less susceptible to what we're being told. but I think I I think it's a necessary part of it.

George (42:43.105)
Yeah.

lindsay (42:55.801)
It's just it it's like a play. It's like watching something, you know, play out and you're just going, This is we've if you just look back at history a little bit, you'll see that we've already been here. and so yeah, I think that it's you know, the more that you have these experiences, the more loosely you hold on to your identity as who you are. And so you become less susceptible to a lot of the attempts at, you know, control through through media, through, through storytelling and through fear. Like the more that you

Wake up, the less susceptible you are to people triggering that fear in you because you're like, I don't, I'm not holding on to those things that I'm afraid to lose anymore. Like I I have them and it's great while they're here, but they're also gonna go at some point. You know, if I'm a a you know, Texas Democrat twin filmmaker, whatever, all of those, you know, ideas, that's so like a nice little story. But if one of those goes away, I'm still here and and and so no, I'm not gonna buy into your.

George (43:46.007)
Right.

lindsay (43:54.118)
soapbox speeches about this stuff. I'm gonna believe what I want to, you know, believe and be more discerning about the stories that I'm hearing. yeah, I there's definitely some lines that I wrote for Maxwell that are me. That are definitely me.

George (44:09.099)
Okay.

Yeah.

There's some awesome esot like some esoteric stuff too. One that like reached out to me is the lips of wisdom are closed except to the ears of understanding. Like I've heard, you know, like when you hear that, like it just helped me make sense of so many more things. Like sometimes you're somewhere and like you hear someone whisper something and it's so meaningful to you. But when I read that quote in the book, it was very meaningful to me because you can I think the secret's out there. And it's the secret is it's not a secret. It's everywhere.

But every now and then you get a personal glimpse of what's really happening out there. Maybe other people can't catch it, but w what where did that line come from? And what do you think of what inspired that? The lips of wisdom are closed except to the ears of understanding.

lindsay (44:56.261)
I would love to sit here and take you know, credit for that. It's not, it's not me. there were two, there were two books that really impacted how I saw women tripping. Because if you haven't noticed, our stories about what it's like to take psychotropic drugs as women are hard to find. But there's two amazing books, Sisters of the Extreme.

George (45:00.511)
Okay.

lindsay (45:21.491)
And psychedelic mysteries of the feminine, which I think is the one Allison Gray wrote the foreword in. And the psychedelic mysteries is more about the history of like the main ads and the women who were making the like potentially LSD based Kaikion for at at the you know Grecian Eleusis mysteries.

The history of like women being the, you know, wisdom keepers and the medicine keepers. But Sisters of the Extreme is just actual writings and direct experiences of women taking everything from like opium to cannabis to LSD over the past like 200 years. And it's fascinating. Like it's just so I've read it like five times. And I'm pretty sure that that line is from one of those women who was in an in an opium dream.

And came out of it and and and you know, wrote that. and it just really stuck with me. It just like I pocketed that in in in in in in you know in my heart and in that conversation that that I I can't give it away. One of the characters has with Vivian, I think she whispers that in her ear. yeah, that that's a little nod to that really amazing book. I I'm I'm actually gonna start.

George (46:20.469)
Yeah.

lindsay (46:39.437)
in the next three books, keeping like a like a bibliography at the end of all the books that have inspired me. Cause I did think that the psychedelic sisters at at the end of this book, but I didn't mention those books. They're on my website, but I haven't mentioned those books. But so, so important. I mean,

I I love that I get to like translate some some of the wisdom from, you know, women from a hundred and fifty years ago into a fiction book that people can, you know, read and potentially resonate with their words like while they were in that that, you know, trip. I think that that's really cool. Yeah. Building bridges over here.

George (47:15.145)
Totally. It's amazing to think that someone went on the other side and found that and brought it back. And here you are, like, hang on, look at this beautiful gym that's out there. It's it's so amazing to get to see that. I got some people stacking up over here. Let's bring them on to the let's let everybody talk to Lindsay except me. And here we go. This one comes to us from Rachel from Phoenix. Rachel, thanks for being here. She says, Lindsay, what belief do you hold so deeply?

That even a heroic dose of psychedelics couldn't persuade you to abandon. Thanks, Rachel.

lindsay (47:47.802)
Whoa.

lindsay (47:51.439)
Damn, that's such a good question, Rachel. Wow.

George (47:53.613)
I got the best audience in the world.

lindsay (47:56.343)
Man,

lindsay (48:00.975)
I think it's probably that that like like like anything can can change. Anything can change. that who I think I am is a story. I think that that's probably what it comes down to. I think what I've realized that I am so passionate about that I think we'll never ever change is that stories matter more than we realize, and that everything that we think is a story.

and so no matter what experiences I have that change who I am over the next however many decades I I, you know, get to be here, what I would like to always remember and what I keep with me is that this is this is just a story too. You know, maybe I'm like really beating this drum about this one issue of the next 10 years, this is just who I I, you know, get to be. Cool. Awesome. It's also just a story and that can, you know, change too. And so it's probably the idea that I am not my mind.

That my my life and my role is a story. And I get to be here and be like the weird, wild, fun Lindsay, creative Lindsay that I get to be. But I've also had the experience of where we're all of like, you know, Lindsay was in the corner for 45 minutes. And I'm just what Rom what, you know, Ram Das called the, you know, loving awareness for that really long time. and so I know that everything that I ever think and that I ever and that I ever get really into and fight for.

Is awesome and and you know perfect in its own way, but it will probably change because it's just a story. Yeah. That's a wonderful question.

George (49:33.869)
That's a that's a awesome answer. Yeah. We got stacking over here. Wait till like there's thank you, Rachel, for being here. I appreciate it. Michael, Michael from Alabama, Birmingham in the house. He says, I'm a recovering addict. Sometimes I worry that our culture romanticizes psychedelics the way it once romanticized other drugs. What do you think the line is between exploration and self deception?

lindsay (49:56.612)
Mm. Man, another awesome question. And this is something that I that I bring up in the book because I in my research I didn't know this. But the guy who started AA, Bill, he was a big evangelist for LSD. He believed that LSD could get people sober from alcohol. And after he created AA, he got kicked out of his own program for, you know,

George (50:10.551)
Interesting.

lindsay (50:26.181)
thinking that. And I know some folks who have sat with ibogaine to treat their addiction. But then they go to AA meetings and they're and you know they're they feel ostracized for taking, you know, a substance to heal their substance issue. So I know that that specifically is is an issue. but I also think that you can

have the exact same issue that you have had with whatever you were addicted to with any with with with any substance. Maybe not, you know, Ibogaines, you know, specifically, but there's lots of stories of people chasing the, you know, dragon. If it's an LSD high, if it's MDMA, I've known plenty of, you know, people who took maybe they weren't addicted to it, but had too many you know, MDMA party nights back in the day because they

wanting to, you know, feel something. And so I think it's again, it's like it's, it's, it's nuance. It's this, you know, really complex idea of whatever is making people reach for that thing, whatever is in them that, you know, first made them, you know, reach for that. I do think these substances can get down in there and heal that. I do, I have had experiences with enough

friends and and family to believe that. But it's not the same for everyone and some and for some people it, you know, won't help. It's not a, you know, one size fits all go sit in the jungle for a week and you'll be done. You know, I I think that we need to have more conversations around how different some of these experiences are. We need more opportunities for, you know, integration and having places where people can

hold space while people are on this journey, because obviously you you, you know, might feel better for the first few weeks or months, but then stuff starts to come back. Who who can you talk to and have, you know, support? A lot of this is so, you know, it's it's a it's a layered journey and it takes as long as it takes. So I do think that there's a lot of promise. It's a lot of opportunity to to really truly heal.

George (52:28.833)
Yeah.

lindsay (52:49.509)
But it's not going to be the same. Like someone may feel fully cured and and you know and and may never touch those substances again. And someone else feels like they were let down and they needed more time, more, you know, conversation. They might need an a a different, you know, substance or experience all all all together. So we just need to have, like I said, take the foot off the gas just a little bit, have more conversations about what people really need, and how and how varied some of this

this needs to be for for really for real healing to happen. That's such a great question. Wow. This is great. And good luck with your journey.

George (53:25.921)
Yeah. Yeah. You know, Michael, I totally. I when it comes to Iboga, like I've been fortunate to speak to a lot of different people. And one person that I trust is a gentleman named Gareth Moxie. He's currently in Mexico and his story is

It's a beautiful story because he went through the throes of addiction himself. And he has been working with Iboga for 20 plus years. The guy's amazing. But one of the things he told me in his conversation is he goes, I wish people would stop saying it's a magic bullet. Like it's not. Like it's it's not that. Like you have to do all the work. Like I could you can come down here and the medicine can help you, but it's not a magic bullet. And I I think a lot of people that are struggling with addiction.

lindsay (53:57.292)
Mm.

George (54:09.675)
are looking for this like look I just want this thing to be over. If I can go down and do i boga, they hear some of the marketing or something. Like I just do it one time and it's over. But I'm not sure that's the case, Michael. But thank you for the awesome question and I appreciate you being here, brother. who else do we got chiming over here?

lindsay (54:24.059)
There is no magic bullet. There it doesn't exist at all. There's it doesn't exist. It didn't take this long for you to get to where you are it with all of these years of of pain and carrying this with you. So of course, it's not gonna just boop be done tomorrow. Maybe if you got a lobotomy like they did back in the day, then it's like that whole part of your brain's gone. Like, good for you. But like other than that, guys, it's you know, the it's it it opens a door. It's like here, here's the door.

George (54:27.414)
Right?

George (54:37.314)
Right.

George (54:40.845)
Mm-hmm.

lindsay (54:51.353)
And then you have to do all the work of like getting through that door. and sometimes it's harder than it was before, you know, sometimes things come up and it's really, really hard. So yeah, having that figuring out how to best hold space for, you know, people as they're as they're moving through that, if it's with a a, you know, substance or or it's not. yeah, it's a it's a very complex issue. Really good question.

George (55:17.493)
Next up is Praya, am I saying that right? Praya coming all the way from London, England. Praya, thank you so much for being here. She says, Does psychedelics reveal truth? Or do they simply make us more emotionally convinced of whatever we're experiencing?

lindsay (55:30.757)
Mm. Yeah.

George (55:33.271)
Thank you, Brian.

lindsay (55:34.844)
So personally, I think we live in a post-truth society where at some point we had we had folks who we look to for answers. You know, back in the day it was the church a long time ago. Then it started to be the scientists and the policymakers and you know and and

George (55:40.436)
Mm.

George (55:53.749)
Yeah.

lindsay (55:59.184)
I think now we are aware as a society here in the US at least that everyone who has a story to tell or is peddling truth may have an agenda underneath that. And so it's like where do we go to get that truth? Now, again, glass half full grill over here, looking at the at the like big picture, trying to hover above it. I think that the invitation we have right now.

George (56:11.605)
Okay.

lindsay (56:29.443)
is to feel into what our own individual truth is. So what psychedelics have allowed for me to do is to feel what's true for me, where I'm not going around telling anyone else that they should believe what I believe, but what I feel, which is different than than my mind, what I feel to be true, has brought it, has brought so many amazing opportunities into my life, has brought in the people that I love.

you know, into my life has aligned me with a purpose that fills me up and makes me feel whole. And so that is my truth that I'm always con you know, you know, thinking about should, you know, is is this right for me now? Is was this right for me yesterday? Is it still serving me now? These are the the types of questions that psychedelics have in influenced me to ask. Whereas before,

I feel I was living out someone else's program. Maybe it was things I learned from my parents that ended up not being true for me. Teachers, movies, friends, family. Like maybe I was carrying things that weren't for me because I suffered more. I was, I I was constant constantly anxious. My OCD was really very intense. and I was the victim of my own situation. And when that changed,

And I was no longer that, you know, victim, then the truth that became my truth was what released me from from feeling that way, was what made me accountable for all of my choices, made me align with what I'm here to do and create and express, and aligned me with a level of, you know, compassion for other people's trip that is not my trip. So I'm not out there judging people without knowing who who they are.

So I think that what we are being invited to do right now is to ask what our truth is beyond what we are being told, beyond what we fear, beyond what makes us, you know, anxious, what makes us feel grounded, what makes us feel whole, what makes us feel like powerful. and so I hope that we I I and it may not be through through through drugs, there's lots of ways to find that truth. There's a lot, there's so many access points to this room.

George (58:43.703)
Yeah.

lindsay (58:48.687)
Fiction's one of those, you know, access points. Maybe it's meditation, maybe it's travel, maybe it's trauma, maybe it's, you know, trauma's a great way to figure out what your own truth is and where you stand. but yeah, thank you. I think that's that's where I'm gonna leave it.

George (58:55.361)
Yeah.

George (59:04.865)
That that reminds me of what you said earlier about suffering. And like when I read Joseph Campbell and you maybe suffering is is like the doorway to truth or your own personal truth. Sometimes you can't really get to the truth without suffering because you have to get rid of the illusion of all the bullshit you told yourself. Like suffering is like trying to hold on to these ideas that are so they're they're not dumb. They're just

There different, they're an older version of you, like your inner ancestors holding on to these ideas and they're not true anymore. Maybe they weren't true before, maybe they were, but I think that's what suffering seems to be is like letting go of these things that you can't carry around. And so I I would I would add that to my friend Prya out there. And two things can be true at once, right, Lindsay? Two things can be true at once.

lindsay (59:52.412)
Absolutely. A hundred percent. And like what someone that's really close in your life, for example, your identical twin, what she holds dear, what she really truly, you know, believes can be the polar opposite of what I do. But I'm not here to say that she's wrong. All I'm suggesting is how does that truth make you feel? What is it bringing into your life? What is it holding you back from, if anything, or is it fully empowering you? And do you feel that it's right for you?

George (59:58.71)
Yeah.

George (01:00:06.881)
Right, right.

lindsay (01:00:21.153)
Awesome, fantastic. As long as it's not hurt, you know, hurting you or anyone else, I'm not gonna question it. Like that's fantastic, you know? but being curious about those things, that's where that's it. It's just it's being curious, not not judgmental, right? I forget who said that the famous quote, but yeah, that's the curiosity to find your own truth, I think is really important right now.

George (01:00:31.853)
Mm-hmm.

George (01:00:38.135)
Yeah.

George (01:00:45.943)
Thank you for that. Amanda, Amanda coming from Portland, she says, You have a twin sister. Has there ever been a moment where she understood you better than you understood yourself?

lindsay (01:00:55.377)
my God, all the time. All the time. I we all we we joke about this, but I really think this is true. I think if everyone had a twin, there would be no world wars. There'd be like peace. Like everyone would just be chill. Because growing up with a twin, like we all have our own, you know, blind spots. We all have these parts of us that we don't realize. these these things that are we're just like running on this, you know, program and we're just like la.

George (01:01:10.029)
Yeah.

lindsay (01:01:25.187)
And you know, having a twin, you know, she's like, wait a second, that's total bullshit. Did you hear what you just said? You know, she's constantly holding me accountable for the things that I say and and do. And I do the same, you know, for her. And sometimes it's really un uncomfortable, but it's always true. It's always you know, it's always an authentic in the moment expression of you're full of shit right now. And I think you should know. I think you should know.

George (01:01:49.996)
Yeah.

lindsay (01:01:53.388)
and I s I absolutely there's so many things about my life and about who I get to be today that I don't think would be that way if I didn't have a a twin. yeah, it's it's it's it's really awesome. It's really great. Imagine if Hitler had a twin. Man, the world would be such a different place. He'd be like, bro, what are you doing? Hold on a second. Is this really should you really? I don't know, you know?

George (01:02:20.333)
Yeah.

lindsay (01:02:22.267)
Happy God.

George (01:02:24.013)
Are you and your sister mirror image twins?

lindsay (01:02:28.663)
no. No. I have like a little mark here and she has the same one on the same side. which is both which we both got from from our dad. but we yeah, she's always the blonde one. She's the platinum blonde. So it is a bit easier to differentiate, but we yeah, we have we're s you know, same height, same eyes. Our eyes were blue when we were kids and then they changed to green when we hit when we were hit like thirteen, fourteen at the exact same time. It was all it was very strange. Yeah.

George (01:02:34.134)
Mm.

George (01:02:51.483)
no way.

George (01:02:58.635)
Interesting. Carlos coming up from Mexico City, Odalée, Carlos, ¿cómo estás? He says, is there a psychedelic experience you've had that with enough distance you now think was simply wrong?

lindsay (01:03:12.539)
Ooh.

George (01:03:13.741)
Nice question, Carlos, thank you.

lindsay (01:03:15.803)
lindsay (01:03:19.503)
Yes. And this is my sister's fault. So this all dovetails real nicely together. The first time I ever did mushrooms, okay? we were outside at night and it was lovely watching the clouds just move and dance. And we're like, my God. And then we made the big mistake of going inside and watching Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

George (01:03:23.236)
imagine that.

lindsay (01:03:43.664)
Because we were 18 and we're like, I don't know, is this what just what you do? And it was fun. but then towards the end, my sister just looked at me and panicked. She said, Look at your eyes right now, and you never do this, you never look in the mirror when you don't really know what's going on. And my eyes were like dinner plates, like you do. And she freaked out and convinced me that I was like the antichrist.

George (01:03:45.377)
Right.

George (01:03:59.234)
Mm, mm.

George (01:04:12.781)
What?

lindsay (01:04:13.305)
Left me alone for the the the r the rest of the night. And I just sat there like crying for hours. I was so upset. And I thought she really believed that until all like a handful of years ago. She's like, Lindsay, I was fucking with you.

George (01:04:19.853)
That's horrible.

George (01:04:29.421)
All right.

lindsay (01:04:29.499)
For for months I was so distraught at have had having had that experience. I didn't go, I didn't try mushrooms again for two years. And this this is such a good example of like I'm just talking about you know how awesome my sister is. Yeah, she also hazed me in my first trip and made and I didn't touch psychedelics again for two years because sisters are mean. so yeah, I don't believe I'm the antichrist anymore. but I

George (01:04:37.741)
That's so crazy.

Right.

lindsay (01:04:55.931)
But I did. But I think that was probably the worst one. I mean, there have been things that I've I've come back with that really helped me at at that moment in in my life that helped me move through things but are no longer relevant. you know, that I you know it it's kind of like you I've gotten through that part of the track and now I'm on the the next, you know, relay part. And so I don't really have to go back to some of those lessons. But yeah, definitely that one.

George (01:05:26.987)
Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I s at high enough doses, like you lose the ability to talk. And if you're out in public, man, you just look like a crackhead. I know from experience. Like you're trying to talk and nothing comes out and you're just doing all these awkward things. Like there's probably times where I probably should have been picked up or whatever, but people should be aware of that. Like you should be looking at set and setting. If you're gonna go out and have a good time.

Like don't do a giant dose where you're gonna lose your ability to speak. It's also difficult to try and understand what other people are saying. Like you just explained that this innocuous well, this statement that was supposed to be talking shit, like that hit home right there. If you're on the right amount, something can tell you something and set you off, or it can it can spiral out of control rather quickly, I think. Totally. Totally. Yep. Yep.

lindsay (01:06:10.799)
And you become very sensitive to other people's stuff. When you're out in public, you have no control over other people's energy, you know, and all of a sudden it's just hitting you in waves and then it's impacting your trip and you think it's you. I mean, it's just a very I don't really go out and and you know public on high doses anymore. That was for my twenties and I made some like fun fun, you know, mistakes. But I will just say really quick, I just want to tell this story because I think that that you're like your your listeners are gonna love this. So

George (01:06:21.782)
Yep.

George (01:06:26.175)
Yeah. Yeah, totally.

Yeah, please.

lindsay (01:06:40.249)
At the end of the further trip, this is in 2014, the bus comes back to San to San Francisco. And we were all we were all on the hate, just celebrating the you know, bus being back. But it it it had been a long journey and everyone was just not feeling it. Like all the pranksters were just exhausted and you know, morale was kind of low. And you know, I had been dosing not on the bus, off the bus every few days while I was filming.

And and then so someone just had some some of this like ink colored potentially owsly acid. I said, let's go. Thought I had taken 300 mics. I took 1500 mics. And I was in the middle of an interview on the hate and the whole world started to tilt. And I was like, no, this is not, this is not gonna be good. And I thought my mom had like booked me a hotel on like hot wire. And I'm like, I just have to get to the hotel and just like lay down. I'm like if if somehow I can just get there.

George (01:07:21.175)
That's so crazy.

lindsay (01:07:38.66)
And luckily one of the pranksters, Mandrake, like saw me in distress, asked me what was going on. And I just grabbed him. I'm like, You have to help me. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm ate too much acid. He goes, Thank you for telling me. It's gonna be fine. I will order a a you know, Uber and I'll just take you. And and on the way there, I'm just going, my God, this is the worst thing I've ever done. And he goes, Or is it the best thing you've ever done? It's too early.

George (01:07:46.867)
Ha ha

George (01:08:03.329)
Yeah, that's so awesome.

lindsay (01:08:04.207)
Really detail. Don't psych yourself out. And I actually use that line. Sherlock says that line in the book, because I'm like, that was such a wonderful shift in my perspective at that moment. But when we get to the hotel, the guy gave us a suite because we had to wait like all of you know five, five minutes to check in. We go up to the third floor and all of the rooms are themed, like Robin Williams and Hunter S. Thompson. I was like, my God, I wonder who we got.

George (01:08:30.934)
Yeah.

lindsay (01:08:32.847)
And I get to the end of the hall, it's the Ken Keesy suite.

George (01:08:36.887)
Way.

lindsay (01:08:38.565)
The guy had no idea who Ken Keysey was. Like he like this this little this kid at the front desk had no idea what well like I told him we were there with with the, you know, bus touries. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. There were framed photos of like Keysey on the walls, Paisley wallpaper. There was his bio was typed on a typewriter on on the desk. And I proceeded to have the most intense download.

Of my entire life up until that point, where it was like, not only are you going to make this movie, but you're going to aid in the evolution of human consciousness through storytelling, like strap in. You're you're just getting started, girl. Like, and it just kind of it just kind of came down and like came to me. And I was just like crying on the bed, like, my God, this is so amazing. And so I went back and a few hours later went back to where the the pranksters were at this like dead cover band show, kind of rounding out the whole tour.

George (01:09:13.565)
Wow.

George (01:09:20.557)
Yeah.

lindsay (01:09:31.738)
And I just danced with like reckless abandon because I felt like I had been given this gift. And later one of the pranksters who ended up in investing in the movie to get it made, once it came out, he said, when when you came back and you danced that way that that night, when like all of our of our, you know, prankster morale was so low, I knew I'm gonna invest in whatever she's gonna make because it's gonna be awesome. And it was just, it started this like chain, you know, reaction of everything else that has led to, you know, so much has like led to this book.

And so I'm not telling anyone to have those experiences. Don't try to take that much and be out in public. That was like really dumb. Luckily, I had a wonderful sober friend to take care of me. But what are the odds? My mom booked the, you know, the hotel on Hotwire was this like fleabag, like random place called the Carriage Inn, which is like no longer, you know, in the city. But

George (01:10:13.174)
Yeah.

lindsay (01:10:27.287)
The one Ken Keezy suite on the planet. And I ended up there while like really high on acid. So I always say that, you know, Key Z baptized me in LSD that night.

George (01:10:34.509)
Man, I don't believe in coincidences. I don't believe in coincidences. That's what you get when you apply a bad theory. Like that's the world just putting its arms around you and being like, Come here, I got something for you. That's fucking bananas.

lindsay (01:10:38.605)
Isn't that crazy? Mm mm. Yeah.

lindsay (01:10:49.687)
Exactly. Exactly. It's one of my favorite things about, you know, tripping is that all of a sudden you just like beeline to the one person you're supposed to meet that night and all these things happen and it's impossible to it's impossible to explain to someone who doesn't, you know, believe in that type of of energy. But it's real. It's that's I've I've had enough of those nights where I really, you know, just think that it's that it's true now. It was just a wild experience.

George (01:10:53.996)
Yeah.

Yeah.

George (01:11:15.137)
Man, that's fifteen hundred mics, that's fucking mind blowing. Yeah, right. amazing. Who else but I got up? here's one. Thomas, what's up, Thomas? Thomas says, as a father, I struggle with this. If your child asked whether they should take psychedelics one day, how would you answer?

lindsay (01:11:18.939)
Not just that one time. It's never I'm not I've never gone anywhere near that sense. No. Mm-mm.

lindsay (01:11:43.098)
Man.

That's a that's such a good, you know, question. And I'm not a parent. and so what I have to say really doesn't matter. So just keep that in mind because I may feel totally different if I had a, you know, son or a daughter. but I think I when I was a kid and I had, you know, questions, my parents never had answers. They just thought that I was too young to to know, but I was really a you know curious kid.

George (01:11:47.309)
It's personal question. Mm.

George (01:11:54.209)
Yeah.

lindsay (01:12:13.839)
And there were certain things that I had to find out the hard way because they weren't honest with me. and so I, you know, personally believe in answering questions the way that at their age they'll understand. Like if they have, you know, questions about what it is and like what it does. There are two there are they can help and they can be great and they can also really mess you up and be very, you know, detrimental. There's there it

it's not like a a, you know, fully safe, easy thing. And so at at a certain point when kids are, you old enough, they're going to make those those, you know, choices for for themselves. But I think if they're armed with enough, you know, information, especially if they're in, you know, high school and already around kids who are probably experimenting with, you know, weed and things like that, it's like, okay, well, this is what these are. This is what, you know, can happen. and you should, you know,

be aware of the, you know, consequences of the choices that you're, you know, making. But at the end of the day, if they decide they're going to, you know, try them, they they they probably will. So I think it's just a matter of of an of, you know, answering as many questions as you can, honestly. but yeah, again, like I don't I have a niece and a nephew. They're too young to have any conversations like this at all. but

their parents, my, you know, brother, like they'll if they have, you know, questions about stuff, they're they just tell them, like, well, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is what what this is. Well, I don't I don't get it. I'm like, yeah, 'cause you're, you know, too young, but one day you'll, you know, get it. But right now, this is the answer. but again, please don't take my word for it. I don't know. I don't know. That's a really great question though. Yeah.

George (01:13:54.67)
Yeah, it is. I think Rick Dodlin has been pretty public about the relationship with him and his kids. And at a certain age as a teenager, he introduced them to MDMA. Another, you know what else is cool you might want to check out, Thomas is like Aldous Huxley wrote a book called The Island, and in that book

I remember a specific scene where kids at a certain age would climb this mountain and sit in a church with like a mentor. It was sort of like a I think Brave New World was like on one end and the island was on the other end. You know, like this is this thing for control, but over here is this thing for liberation. We check out those two t those two books, Thomas. It's a it's an awesome question. And ultimately, Thomas, you're the father, man. I you should you should

Figure out what's right for you and your family there. But that's an awesome question, Thomas. Thank you. I got one more coming over here from Rebecca. Rebecca, nope, sorry, not that one. That one is okay, here's Melissa. Melissa from Omaha says, I have to push back a little bit. Isn't there danger that books like yours encourage people to romanticize drug culture instead of doing the hard work of therapy, community, and responsibility? What do you think, Lindsay? Thank you, Melissa.

lindsay (01:14:45.135)
Yes.

lindsay (01:15:06.959)
Hmm. Thank you. Thank you for pushing back. I love these types of, you know, questions. Like I don't, I don't have all of of the, you know, answers. I don't like I'm, you know, one person. what I really wanted to do with this book and the and the other books that are coming out is kind of show, and it is fiction, right? I'm still making stuff up, guys. But in these books, I'm trying to show both sides.

George (01:15:12.599)
Right?

Yeah.

George (01:15:30.925)
That's it.

lindsay (01:15:37.206)
Of of this, you know, of these substances. For example, like, you know, pharmacon, which is the name of the pharmaceutical company in in this book, it's a real Greek word that means medicine or poison or both. And so the experiences that these, you know, twins have and are going to have, I'm gonna put them through the, you know, ringer in the next three books. some of them are really powerful and profound, and some of them are very hard and disorienting.

Because there's both, because there's there's, you know, all of it.

I tried my best to be honest about my own experience, knowing that it is my own experience. And what I'm sharing in these books has a lot to do with what these substances have done for me. and my goal is to in in invite curiosity for people to discover what that is for themselves. And I know a lot of people aren't like might be more, you know, curious. And some people are just be like, this is definitely not for me. I'm never gonna do.

I am never gonna try any of that stuff. And I think all of that is is okay. And I just have to be honest that, you know, this is always going to be through my lens, through my own individual lens and my own perspective, right or wrong. It's not, it's not, it's right for me, you know. but I am trying to show that that these are not just a one size fits all magic bullet like we have, you know, been talking about. These substances don't.

Save the twins. That's not what that's not what what happens at all. so I encourage you to, you know, read it and then can we have a more of a you know conversation? Cause I'd love to know what you think at the end, once you've you you've you've read it, what you think the the message is because I'm totally down to to talk more about this, you know, topic. Absolutely.

George (01:17:18.189)
Yeah.

George (01:17:34.274)
Yeah, it's an awesome question, Melissa. And I think it probably speaks to the minds of lots of people who were like, wait a minute, what are you doing here? Is this the responsible thing to do? But again, I think everyone should should not pass judgment until you've read it all and then done some thinking about it. Like, what's the what is she really trying to say in this book? What questions is she bringing up? And and so, but I appreciate that, Melissa. And Lindsay, I really enjoyed this book. I thought it was, like I said, one of the best books I've read in the last five years.

I love psychedelics. They've changed my life. and it it was like a so much good writing in there. So many awesome, like I'm a huge fan of like tidbits or paragraphs or one-liners that stick with me. And there were points in this book where I had to set it down and just think for a minute, which to me is the hallmark of an awesome book or an awesome read at anything, is when you just set something down and be like, wait a minute, what does this mean? And I did that multiple times here. So I'm grateful for that.

lindsay (01:18:03.899)
Wow.

George (01:18:31.467)
It's a one of a one of a four part series, but you have other things coming up too. And I was hopeful that you could share with the audience what you got coming up, where people can find you and what you're excited about.

lindsay (01:18:42.127)
Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, I have more live events around this this book launch. I have one at the Berkeley Alembic tonight. and then I have all of you know July off doing other things, but in August, I'm coming back and I'm gonna be at like Cleo's in Berkeley. I'm gonna be at Kepler's books in Menlo Park, which is like where Keysey was, you know, working. He was volunteering at the hospital there back in 1960.

Nineteen sixty. and that's when he, you know, made made the, you know, further bus. So it's all kind of coming together, all of that, you know, local lore. I'm gonna go to a lit night in La Honda with some of the like OG pranksters. It's being hosted by the guy who lives in Key Z house now. So that will be fun. and so I have all of these, I have the whole list on my website, thehallucinarator dot com.

I'm working on book two. Hopefully it'll be out next year. My twin the witch. Then we got My Twin the Alien and My Twin the Ghost. And we're just gonna get weirder and weirder, guys. Like Scratman. It's just gonna get, we're talking about some weird, some weird stuff. It's gonna be fun. but I am working on another twin project my with with my sister. She wrote an award-winning screenplay. I I I digitized our home movies as a gift for her, and my twisted sister's like.

George (01:19:42.677)
Yeah.

George (01:20:00.258)
Nah.

lindsay (01:20:02.159)
This would make a great horror movie, like a found footage horror movie. And so we're using our home movies as like a found footage like element in this in this movie. And it's it's really good. And so we're in development on that. and I'm also in development on a a documentary, docuseries project called Art Under Pressure, which is basically the the idea that when societies change, artists feel it first. And so we're like going around the world talking to

George (01:20:03.861)
Mm-hmm.

George (01:20:29.197)
Yeah.

lindsay (01:20:31.567)
sometimes indigenous communities, sometimes just like other like, you know, sub communities in in, you know, cities, just talking about how artists are are dealing with things like AI, climate change, gentrification, things like that, and how they're using that, those experiences to express through art. so I'll keep you posted on that. Maybe that will become a show towards the end of this year. That is our goal.

but yeah, those are those are the big things. Please follow me. I I also have a weekly newsletter where I'm sharing like, you know, excerpts from the from the book. And the and we'll be sharing free copies of the of the you know the next one ahead of time for he for like nerds like me who wanna like read it and review it early. and also just like more weird history. I like to

George (01:21:17.109)
Yeah.

lindsay (01:21:24.871)
focus on some of the unsung women from the psychedelic history chain that have have awesome stories that haven't really gotten their due. So if you want to join that, there's a join me button on the hallucinarator.com. And yeah, follow me on Instagram and stuff. Let's go. Thank you so much. The Hallucinarator. Yeah.

George (01:21:40.525)
What's your handle on Instagram?

Okay, all right. And did you is LindseyKint dot com, is that a site as well where people can find you?

lindsay (01:21:48.366)
It is. You know what? It's so funny. I should just have that point to the hallucinarator now because it's all my like documentary stuff. but it is like it is, it's still, you know, updated. You and and you can watch the sh the short film that I made with my twin called The Split, which is we also starred in it because my character Andy takes ayahuasca, separates from her ego in a moment of total bliss, and then wakes up and her and her her ego is in her house and my sister plays my ego.

George (01:21:53.919)
Okay, good.

George (01:22:10.029)
Yeah.

lindsay (01:22:14.757)
So it's this like little dark comedy that we made a couple of years ago. It's really fun. It's on YouTube if you want to watch it. but yeah, yes. all of that, all of that is me. Mm-hmm.

George (01:22:27.991)
Ladies and gentlemen, do yourself a huge favor. Pick up the book, go to the Halusa narrator. You can scan the QR code right there on the screen, or just copy that image and go check her out. Reach out to her. I'm super stoked. I'm super stoked Lindsay to talk to you, to hang with people this long and looking forward to everything you got coming up. Hang on briefly afterwards. To everybody who joined us. Thank you so much for being here today. So many awesome questions. I love it. Everybody have a beautiful day. That's all we got.

lindsay (01:22:54.107)
Thank you.