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When culture shifts fast, men are tempted to either go silent or go harsh. This episode is a practical conversation on leading with biblical conviction and real compassion—without fear, compromise, or performative outrage. If you want to follow Jesus faithfully and lead your family with clarity, press play.
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Website: https://projectchurch.com
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Creators and Guests
Host
Caleb Cole
Caleb, a Sacramento native, grew up in a pastor’s home and is a third generation minister. At the age of 12, after one of his grandfather’s sermons, he felt a call from God to be a pastor. He consistently pursued that call throughout high school and college. Caleb attended Central Bible College in Springfield, MO where he earned a B.A. in Biblical Studies and went on to the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary where he earned an M.A. in Theological Studies.
What is Men of Faith?
Men of Faith is a Christian podcast dedicated to calling men up and not out.
Hosted by Caleb Cole, each episode equips men to follow Jesus with conviction, character, and consistency—at home, at work, and in every season of life. Through honest conversations and practical biblical wisdom, Men of Faith tackles real issues like leadership, fatherhood, identity, marriage, discipline, spiritual growth, and navigating culture without compromise. This is a podcast for men who want more than inspiration—they want transformation.
00;00;00;01 - 00;00;17;27
Speaker 1
If you're pointing them to him, then these aren't Caleb's preferences, or his teachings, or his proclivity. It's Caleb being obedient to the Word of God and offering others too. Here's the counsel of God's Word. And if you accept this as the truth, then here's your path.
00;00;18;02 - 00;00;37;27
Speaker 2
You're listening to men of Faith. The podcast dedicated to calling men up and not out. Join me as we live a life dedicated to our God.
00;00;38;00 - 00;00;51;29
Speaker 2
Welcome back to the men of Faith podcast. I'm your host, Caleb Cole, and I am here with my co-host. He's back. Give it up. What up? Brandon Miller is in the building. What up? Brandon.
00;00;52;01 - 00;00;53;17
Speaker 1
Hello? How are you doing?
00;00;53;20 - 00;00;56;26
Speaker 2
I'm doing good, man. I think that we missed you these last couple episodes.
00;00;56;26 - 00;00;58;11
Speaker 1
So glad to be back.
00;00;58;17 - 00;01;06;00
Speaker 2
It's good to have you back. Yeah. Brandon got sick on us for the last episode, and so I went onward and forward without him. But I missed you.
00;01;06;01 - 00;01;06;22
Speaker 1
Appreciate that.
00;01;06;22 - 00;01;07;16
Speaker 2
You're feeling better.
00;01;07;23 - 00;01;08;05
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.
00;01;08;08 - 00;01;12;16
Speaker 2
Well, good. We got a doozy of a topic for you. Do people still say doozy?
00;01;12;17 - 00;01;13;03
Speaker 1
They might.
00;01;13;10 - 00;01;14;04
Speaker 2
That's a doozy.
00;01;14;05 - 00;01;15;29
Speaker 1
It's a doozy. Yeah. You can.
00;01;16;02 - 00;01;16;22
Speaker 2
I feel like.
00;01;16;23 - 00;01;19;06
Speaker 1
If you're over 40, you might know that.
00;01;19;09 - 00;01;22;28
Speaker 2
And I am. I feel like my parents use that word.
00;01;23;00 - 00;01;24;29
Speaker 1
It's a doozy, right?
00;01;25;01 - 00;01;50;01
Speaker 2
But we want to talk to you, today, just about how we can, as Christians, love people. Well, when we disagree with them. Yeah. And I think there are specific topics that we do want to kind of address around this. Because they're hot topic, they're hot button topics. And I think maybe we start primarily in the sexual, region.
00;01;50;03 - 00;02;14;14
Speaker 2
Is that is that how I should say the sexual area? Because here's what I've seen in the church. And we're just diving in, right? Yeah. Here's what I've seen in the church. I've seen we've got it in the church right now, like most people are. I joke they're dating, relating and fornicating. So most people in the church right now are having sex outside of marriage.
00;02;14;16 - 00;02;45;09
Speaker 2
Fornication is just normal, because that's what culture tells you, right? Like, you gotta try it out. You gotta test drive the car before you buy it. And it's the same way in relationships, in marriage. So most even Christians, now they're cohabitating. They're they're engaging, you know, in intimacy sexually on the regular before they get married. And so we believe biblically that this is fornication is sin and thing outside of the marriage covenant is sin.
00;02;45;11 - 00;03;07;26
Speaker 2
And so when we talk about it, though, now a lot of Christians are like, I don't want to hear that. And this is what I'm finding as a pastor. I do a lot of premarital counseling, and the majority of the people are having sex outside of marriage, before marriage. Then not only that, it's Pride Month. I don't know when this is airing, but, you know, it's June right now, and Brian and I are recording this, and the topic of homosexuality comes out.
00;03;07;28 - 00;03;38;28
Speaker 2
And, you know, we believe and and we hold in our church to a biblical sexual ethic, which is that, you know, marriage is between a man and a woman. Sex was meant to be in marriage between a man and a woman. And any same sex, orientation or same sex engagement is sin. And and God, clearly. And we can all get into a couple of the scriptures as to why we believe this, but the God clearly condemns this, the scriptures condemn this, and New Testament condemns this.
00;03;38;28 - 00;03;58;16
Speaker 2
The Old Testament condemns this. And yet I don't think today is about us going. We're here to prove to everyone that that's all sin, right? Today what brand? And I want to talk about is how we can have those conversations in love. And I think it's hard to do. We don't do it well as Christians.
00;03;58;19 - 00;04;22;19
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think it's very possible in all of what you just said, to have a conversation with all of the right intention, but with all of the wrong, approach, and end up shutting down any good that you hopefully intended for, which would be that someone doesn't agree with you. They agree with God. It's not your name on the line.
00;04;22;24 - 00;04;53;17
Speaker 1
Yes. It's not. It's not you winning an argument. It's not you convincing someone against their will. It's simply holding up the truth of God's Word. Let it be the mirror and someone either believes it or they don't. And if they don't, that's not on you. Right. Because I heard you say years back for the the points that I think in my, coming to project church a while back, was it I am that you're simply just delivering the message.
00;04;53;20 - 00;05;17;18
Speaker 1
If I could make it say something different, maybe I would, but I can't, because it's what it says. And there are very contentious topics that the Bible goes into that it it doesn't mix words on. It's very clear in these topics around why God wants sex inside of a marriage. Well, you know, statistically, they say that the number one indicator of whether or not a couple will likely divorce is if they cohabitate before they get married.
00;05;17;24 - 00;05;39;11
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, that's not our wisdom coming through. That's biblical. That's why God said a man leaves his father. Mother united to his wife's to become one flesh. It also isn't our narrative that he said a man and his wife become one flesh. So it's it's a man and woman. And so these topics are contentious. We could add abortion to this list.
00;05;39;14 - 00;06;00;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. And a woman's right to choose as the perceived words go and how that lines up with Scripture. And so I feel like there's a way to do this with love, compassion, truth. And there's a way to go down this path where you're ultimately not being helpful or even, even a part of what you think you're trying to do, which is good in this world.
00;06;00;29 - 00;06;32;22
Speaker 2
Yeah, I, I don't think we're here or this podcast wasn't intended for us to debate whether this stance is right or wrong. In fact, we're just stating right here, hey, this is what we believe the Bible says, think God is, pro-life, right? God. God doesn't, doesn't condone, nor should we condone, abortion. I understand there's nuance in this, but ultimately, as a church, like we've stood for life always, we're not going to debate that right now.
00;06;32;24 - 00;06;43;05
Speaker 2
The topic of homosexual, the topic of sex outside of marriage, like all these, we have had a few conversations around this. And blanket statements are like, This is God's standard.
00;06;43;07 - 00;06;44;04
Speaker 1
Here's God's standard.
00;06;44;08 - 00;07;16;28
Speaker 2
We're holding to that standard. This conversation, like you just brought up, Brandon, is how do we have those conversations? And so if you're on the side of going, I don't actually agree with any of that. Well, then maybe the rest of this conversation is, not really going to be, relevant to your life. But for those of you that do mostly hold those standards and agree with those standards biblically, which is probably more of our listeners who are Christians and hold a biblical Christian ethics, sexual ethic and biblical worldview.
00;07;16;28 - 00;07;46;07
Speaker 2
And that's what we want us to have, the biblical worldview, because in reality, the biblical worldview is colliding right now with the cultural worldview. And and the worldviews are becoming further and further apart, and people and Christians have to choose. And so we've made our choice. But how do we convey that now to those who maybe consider themselves Christians because they're calling themselves Christians, but they still hold to a cultural worldview?
00;07;46;08 - 00;07;47;10
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;07;47;12 - 00;08;20;17
Speaker 2
Or they aren't Christians, but they're open to what the Bible says about this. And so this is where I've always come in. Because, look, I've had through the years, I've had a ton of conversations, meetings, email, you know, email chains with people who hold different worldviews and especially around this topic of sexuality and predominantly biblical sexuality, from speaking on this homosexuality topic.
00;08;20;17 - 00;08;42;29
Speaker 2
So we've had a lot of gay people come to our church through the years. I've become friends with some of them, and I've always said to them is, look, I have a responsibility to show you what the Bible says, to speak the truth of the Word of God to you. Here's what it says. At the end of the day, this is about you and your relationship with God.
00;08;43;00 - 00;08;59;22
Speaker 2
Yeah, it does not impact my relationship with God. Now, my relationship with God is depend on the Scripture tells me, like I'll be held accountable as a teacher of God's Word for what I say, what I teach, what I share. And so the Bible actually says, you shouldn't want to teach the word because you'll be held to a higher standard.
00;08;59;22 - 00;09;16;12
Speaker 2
But I take that very seriously. So every one of those meetings, I'm like, look, this is what I see in the Bible. But ultimately this is between you and God, and I can't convince you. I can show you what the word says. You need to go to the Holy Spirit. You need to go to God. You need to go to His Word, study it for yourself.
00;09;16;14 - 00;09;37;27
Speaker 2
Then ultimately, like you got to make your own decision, I'm going to love you. Either way, you're welcome in my life and in this church. Like either way. But I'm not going to affirm what I believe is unbiblical behavior. And that's the the conversation that the, the, the homosexual community always comes to me with is, are you open and affirming?
00;09;37;27 - 00;09;55;07
Speaker 2
That's those are the two questions when people come to our church for the first time and they're gay, in same sex relationships or even just our pro, you know, homosexuality and same sex relationships, they always ask, are you an open and affirming church? And I always tell them, like, we're open, everyone is welcome here, but we're not affirming.
00;09;55;07 - 00;10;22;02
Speaker 2
I'm never going to affirm a lifestyle that I see as, antagonistic to the gospel against what the Bible says. I'm actually supposed to call out sin, but I'm open your love. You're welcome here. And and I've tried to always have those conversations listening, but also responding with love and saying, ultimately it's between you and God. I'm not going to be hateful towards you because I disagree with you.
00;10;22;05 - 00;10;31;04
Speaker 2
Right? So I'm just curious, you know, as you've had these conversations through the years and as you were even talking earlier about, like, how do we love them? Love.
00;10;31;04 - 00;10;32;22
Speaker 1
Well, yeah.
00;10;32;24 - 00;10;33;23
Speaker 2
How do you approach these?
00;10;33;23 - 00;10;59;03
Speaker 1
I mean, I, I want to commend you because the way that you're describing your approach is that you're giving people a chance to work it out, ask questions, be be involved in their faith because something's calling them to be here. So there's a reason they showed up. Something is is opening a door. And let's be really clear on this.
00;10;59;03 - 00;11;20;25
Speaker 1
I mean, if I've always held the position that there's really only one sin that keeps a person out of heaven, and that's if you don't believe the good news and you don't accept Jesus Christ as Lord. And do I believe in that space, do you also have to follow God's word and obey him? Yeah, pretty much says if you love me, you will obey me.
00;11;20;25 - 00;11;43;16
Speaker 1
Yeah. So the job of a pastor and a leader is to point to teaching them to obey everything Jesus commanded you. It's in it's in our commission. Yeah. So if you're if you're pointing them to him, then these aren't Caleb's preferences or his teachings or his proclivity. It's Caleb being obedient to the Word of God and offering others to.
00;11;43;23 - 00;12;02;02
Speaker 1
Here's the counsel of God's Word. And if you accept this as the truth, then here's your path. And that's an approach that in the years of ministry that I've done, I've taken this idea that I do not have the force of will, personality or power to change a person's mind.
00;12;02;05 - 00;12;02;16
Speaker 2
That's good.
00;12;02;16 - 00;12;20;26
Speaker 1
I can't do it. I cannot change your mind. I cannot change your heart. I cannot save you what I can offer is the power of God and my commitment to pray for you. Right. Because if a, if a, if any person will change their mind on any perspective, we could talk sexuality, we could talk what you said cohabitating couples.
00;12;20;28 - 00;12;44;27
Speaker 1
You and I both know probably many of them who that's in their mindset. This is there's nothing outside of God's will for them in this path. Or, you know, people that do hold other positions that aren't of a biblical nature. Well, part of discipleship is learning to walk in God's Word and his ways. And some of these things, they are going to be Holy Spirit challenged.
00;12;44;29 - 00;12;45;08
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;12;45;15 - 00;13;07;00
Speaker 2
So why do you think Christians get like, so angry though? Like, why are we so angry in our response? Because, it's just this is a maybe a me thing, a personality thing. Like when, when people are coming to me and asking me these hard questions like, I'm not angry, I'm not going to attack them. How could you believe that?
00;13;07;01 - 00;13;34;10
Speaker 2
The Bible says this, you know, but we often and a lot of Christians come at those with a different worldview, with anger and hate and even maybe cruelty, even even to the point of, like, insults and mocking and demeaning. And I just don't see that ever done by Jesus or in Scripture. But why do you think that is a response of many Christians?
00;13;34;10 - 00;13;56;27
Speaker 1
I think in some cases you're talking about a religious spirit. Yeah. And people who believe that their job is to tell people that they're they incite fear. Fear is the motivator for what they do because they have a fear innate. And if I don't say things as strong as I can, if I don't bring it, then somehow that tarnishes me.
00;13;56;29 - 00;14;22;28
Speaker 1
And so fear becomes the lead in fear as a lead, as a Christian. If again, if we're biblically informed, you don't lead that way. It's not, oh yeah, fear of the Lord. Yes, fear of all the other things. No, because perfect love drives out fear. So if if, if your approach is to the best of your ability to love people to God's kingdom and glory, and that's your job as a minister.
00;14;22;28 - 00;14;47;17
Speaker 1
So you have to teach obedience is love. So here's what it means to obey the Lord. People whose motivation is I have to prove you wrong. So I could be right that that's a fundamental mess. That's when I look at what Jesus, what I look at where he got the most, animated. According to Scripture, it usually was with people who had that approach.
00;14;47;20 - 00;15;09;19
Speaker 1
Yeah, it was with those who had this religious spirit nature to them. And I feel like that that does permeate the church. And so can you. Can you in love, in kindness and compassion and with firm truth. Yeah. Speak to things you're talking about. It sounds like that's that is what we're holding as an ideal today.
00;15;09;21 - 00;15;36;15
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and it's a hard, I think, path to walk for most Christians because I do think a religious spirit and we know the Bible also how knowledge puffs up like the more knowledgeable we get of the word if it's not going into our hearts, the more religious and the religious spirit will flow out of us, and the more hateful, angry bull we see Christians becoming.
00;15;36;15 - 00;15;52;22
Speaker 2
And I think it's because it's a lot up here. I know what the Bible says. I know what sin is. I know what's right. I know what's wrong. But it's not penetrating the heart of the heart of God. Right? We have this. We have the the letter of the law, but we don't carry the spirit of the law.
00;15;52;25 - 00;16;14;08
Speaker 2
And and Jesus talked about this. We have to carry the spirit of the the spirit of the law was that the people of Israel would be set free from sin. That was the spirit. But the letter of the law says, you got to do all the steps, all the rights and wrongs. You got to check off every box and then you're set free from your sin.
00;16;14;08 - 00;16;36;25
Speaker 2
But that's the opposite of the gospel. And so I think that the religious spirit is something we're always in a battle as followers of Christ. And it's why we have to constantly pray like Lord, like change my heart. I want your spirit to be in my heart so that when I approach anyone who is living in sin and maybe even considers themselves a Christian, that I approach them with truth.
00;16;36;28 - 00;16;55;02
Speaker 2
But I do it in love. And ultimately I say, this isn't about me, this is about them. And if I'm about them, then I'm probably gonna have more empathy and love and patience and kindness. But what you said is so good, I hadn't even thought about it, is we make it about us. It's fear. It's our own pride.
00;16;55;02 - 00;17;15;29
Speaker 2
It's I got to be right and just to prove to them that they're wrong. So then we come with this like, haughty, prideful, angry spirit that it doesn't bring anyone closer. Lord, if anything, it often turns them off. And so I think it really comes down to like, our heart. But I think fear is such a big part of it.
00;17;16;06 - 00;17;38;03
Speaker 2
I do think that because of what culture's doing right now. Yeah. You know, the transgender movement, the increase in just pro, you know, gay pride. And we have a whole month about it and we've got clothing lines about it. And every school is pushing. I mean, look, my kids are in public school. It's being pushed very strongly.
00;17;38;05 - 00;18;04;14
Speaker 2
I think maybe the reason a lot of Christians are mad or angry and how they approach people is because they're afraid. They're afraid that this is going to infiltrate their children, their hearts, minds, lives. It could potentially be their future. They're afraid that that this movement, any movement, will become stronger. And when it's anti biblical, I get why there's fear.
00;18;04;16 - 00;18;13;11
Speaker 2
But ultimately we don't live with the spirit of fear, right? God doesn't give it a spirit of fear. He's given us a one of power love, sound mind. Yeah. So we have to approach it differently.
00;18;13;11 - 00;18;42;06
Speaker 1
Yeah I agree, I think, I think we as Christians find ourselves many times fighting fire with fire. Meaning we think if, if, if I feel this frustration, anxiety place that I'm going to fight it with that instead of also following our biblical narrative, which is we pray, we seek God, we fast, we engage in what we know to be true, that there's a spiritual battle.
00;18;42;12 - 00;19;05;12
Speaker 1
Yes. And the reality is that we again, if I can't change your mind, I can't change the culture. I can't change the world I live in the problems that we see and face in our reality. If we just study history, these aren't new realities. It's in the Bible. Practices that were not according to God's Word existed pretty well in Rome.
00;19;05;12 - 00;19;06;14
Speaker 1
Greece, like.
00;19;06;14 - 00;19;06;29
Speaker 2
Thousands.
00;19;06;29 - 00;19;26;22
Speaker 1
Of years go through history. Babylon. These are not new. These are not new things on earth. No. You know, nothing new under the sun, right? Nope. So we're living in a time where, yes, we could say, well, our times, the worst times. Well, maybe. I mean, it depends on your grading scale, but it is it. It is there sin on earth?
00;19;26;22 - 00;19;48;24
Speaker 1
Yeah. Will there always be? Yeah. Until Christ returns. Absolutely. And so that space where we, we sometimes lose sight of, you know, not by power, not by mind, but by the spirit says the Lord. It's the spirit. It's God's Spirit that changes a situation that we find ourselves in, whether public school, whether it's, you know, out in our communities.
00;19;48;24 - 00;20;10;06
Speaker 1
It's that awareness of, yeah, I can be triggered and acknowledge I might be I might be challenged by things that I see injustice. For example, I might be challenged by what I see, but how I react. As a Christian, we are called to be measured. We're called to. We're called to walk in the same way that Christ demonstrated for us, not passive.
00;20;10;08 - 00;20;19;07
Speaker 1
Right? We can tell the truth, but we can do so with love and confidence that it's it's him that changes hearts, minds and cultures.
00;20;19;09 - 00;20;50;01
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's so good. I think thinking through our response and, and then I don't think we think well we don't plan or strategize well as to how I'm going to approach, you know, a person a situation worldview. And we're just so reactive. That's what I see in the church is just a lot of reactive reaction, reactive people.
00;20;50;04 - 00;21;15;27
Speaker 2
Instead of living with intentionality. And there's a big difference, you know? I mean, you lead an organization that's growing. And so when I live with intention, I'm not reacting to what's happening around me. I'm living, ahead of what's happening. Right? I'm. I'm directing, my narrative, and I'm directing my direction with God's leading, of course.
00;21;15;29 - 00;21;35;24
Speaker 2
And that's what I want. I'm just thinking about the men who are watching, you know, like, this is obviously the men of faith. What up? Moss didn't even shout you out yet. But I'm thinking about them all watching. And how many of them are followers of God? I mean, look, the last thing that I think any of us want is to come across as unloving and hateful.
00;21;35;24 - 00;21;36;26
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;21;36;28 - 00;21;52;23
Speaker 2
Cruel. And yet we can do that unknowingly because we're living with fear, because we feel like everything's out of control. And I think that's a big part of it too, is we try to control what we can can control.
00;21;52;23 - 00;22;18;08
Speaker 1
I think with what you're saying, too, is that there's a level of shame that can exist if a Christian, let's say, our men of faith brothers here, if you feel that you're being passive, I should say something. Yeah. And so, out of that shame of passivity comes an overcompensated approach. And if we believed like if we really believed that prayer is our power.
00;22;18;10 - 00;22;38;09
Speaker 1
Yeah. It is the most powerful thing we can do. There is I mean fasting and prayer might be a one up on that. But like then we would never accept that. Us choosing to see what we see, hear what we hear and respond by coming before God on our knees and saying, you have to intervene. It's the most powerful thing we can do.
00;22;38;11 - 00;22;52;11
Speaker 1
Yeah. And if you know, as men of faith, we said, when I'm in the situation as a man of God, a man of prayer, it's changing because I'm here and I'm bringing God into the situation and there's no passivity in that. At all.
00;22;52;13 - 00;23;05;10
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, it's so good. What should we do? I mean, what should we do with all these topics? Ultimately, I realize, like, look, I have a responsibility and I can only control what I can control.
00;23;05;10 - 00;23;06;00
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;23;06;03 - 00;23;32;04
Speaker 2
Which is for the men in this house or the men who are listening in, in our church, and the men who who consider themselves men of God or men of faith. What can you do right now is you can love your family well, you can lead your sons well. You can set a godly example for them. You can teach them the truth, because ultimately we're trying to control all these other people outside there.
00;23;32;04 - 00;23;46;25
Speaker 2
But God's given us a primary responsibility of like you're when we talk about loving our neighbor, right? We we could apply that to this topic. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. My first neighbor is actually my wife and my three kids.
00;23;46;28 - 00;23;47;20
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;23;47;22 - 00;24;03;17
Speaker 2
And if I don't learn to love them as I love myself, how can I then love my neighbor who actually lives next door to me? And then the people that come to my church and the people that I interact with at work, you know, like these are all our neighbors, but it's got to start with your closest neighbor.
00;24;03;17 - 00;24;27;24
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that's your family, who is your primary ministry and responsibility. And so I think there's a lot of fear out there around all these topics. But I'm like, look, I'm not afraid with my kids because I know I'm the greatest influence in their life. So they're going to hear messaging at school and they come home and talk to me about it, and then I'm going to undo that messaging with biblical worldviews and say, this is what the Bible says.
00;24;27;27 - 00;24;34;03
Speaker 2
And then they do feel like aliens and strangers in a world not their own. My kids feel like exiles at their school.
00;24;34;09 - 00;24;34;27
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;24;35;00 - 00;24;56;15
Speaker 2
And I'm happy about that. I want you to feel that you don't belong. You're in the world, but you're not of the world. And I'm teaching them, though, to love those people who are different than them, had different worldviews than them, who who are living and already deciding lifestyles or worldviews that are contrary to the Word of God.
00;24;56;18 - 00;25;16;26
Speaker 2
And they feel like that I don't belong and I'm like, good. And I'm training you to where you don't belong, but you live in the not of it with love. Yeah. And you're going to love those people. I think to Christ, you're going to love your friends to Christ, and they're already doing it. So I'm just what do I do in this with all these topics?
00;25;16;26 - 00;25;23;25
Speaker 2
Like I start with my family and speaking and living and showing a biblical worldview, and all of that's with them first.
00;25;23;27 - 00;25;50;19
Speaker 1
That's good because you're you're showing them exactly what you just said, right? I, I answer all questions. I do it in love. I share it because people in your church who profess to be Christians won't always agree with you. And you're you're being patient and you're sure you're guiding them and you're saying, hey, let's let's both have a biblically informed view of your opinions, and then let's pray through what your response is in my mind.
00;25;50;22 - 00;26;12;03
Speaker 1
Well, it would seem to me that that's how we approach our families, our friends, our coworkers on any of these topics that can be contentious is if we're if we're Christians, then let's, let's let's not let's not form your opinion. My opinion culture's opinion. Let's form it around what God has to say. And let's let me be patient and love you.
00;26;12;06 - 00;26;16;02
Speaker 1
Be prayerful for you. Let's see where he takes this conversation.
00;26;16;04 - 00;26;33;14
Speaker 2
So good. It's funny you said that because a few years ago I preached a message on, sexuality, biblical sexuality, and I preached it on a Sunday, and I spent a lot of time I dug into all the scriptures and laid out, you know, like, this is what God's Word says. This is where we stand as a church.
00;26;33;14 - 00;26;55;13
Speaker 2
This is our heart, though, for people, blah, blah, blah. So I laid this all out. After the service, I had two people leave our church. One came to me shaking. She was so angry that I was not harsh enough with the homosexuals. You know, it was like you needed to tell them more that they were living in sin.
00;26;55;15 - 00;27;16;26
Speaker 2
You need to tell them more that they were going to be, you know, condemned. They were going to suffer in hell for eternity. And I was like, I'm pretty sure I laid out what the Bible said, but it wasn't harsh enough for her. She was so angry. She walks away and another person comes up to me. I'm leaving this church because you don't love gay people.
00;27;16;26 - 00;27;41;13
Speaker 2
You know, you you told them that it was sin, and it was like the two complete opposites. And they both left our church. And I'm sitting there like, oh my goodness. Like ultimately living. I think biblical, but with love. Some people and you're going to upset both sides. And it's the hardest thing about being a Christian in this world right now.
00;27;41;15 - 00;27;57;06
Speaker 2
And I know I'm using that topic specifically, but I've I've had the same thing with abortion. I've had the same thing with even sex outside of marriage and cohabitation and made people mad about that topic. Like, ultimately we have a responsibility to the Lord, but also to love.
00;27;57;06 - 00;27;57;22
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;27;57;24 - 00;28;27;13
Speaker 2
We love people. We speak the truth in love. Where were we have a biblical worldview, but we also care about our neighbors. And when you live that way, you will upset both sides. And it's a it's a hard space and place to be. But ultimately, I think it's where God, his heart is, is like, I'm going to show you the truth, which may hurt you, but I'm also going to love you, which may upset the religious spirit.
00;28;27;16 - 00;28;49;07
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think, Caleb, the day that you start patterning your ministry out of what makes people happy, right? It won't work out well for your brother. But given that you have one audience to please, it does. It does clean it up for you for sure. Because if he's pleased and you did what you're supposed to, you already know it.
00;28;49;07 - 00;28;53;23
Speaker 1
Front people. People are going to take it. People are going to leave it. And you can't control that, right?
00;28;53;23 - 00;28;54;28
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00;28;55;00 - 00;29;15;25
Speaker 1
And I think that's for us too, that it's not. These aren't our words. We didn't come up with this this command. We didn't come up with these ideals. Yeah. God has an ideal of what is best for us. That's all we're offering people is this is what he says is best for us. This is what produces the most peace, the most joy, the most love it.
00;29;15;28 - 00;29;24;29
Speaker 1
All of the things that all of us are striving so hard to get. He told us how to live, to get it. Yeah. And that's hopefully how the spirit with which we offer it to people.
00;29;24;29 - 00;29;44;08
Speaker 2
Know that is a great way to end it. I think people hearing anyone that's listening, maybe, maybe you feel like on your own you land on one side or the other. Ultimately, it comes down to God wants what's best for us. That's what you said.
00;29;44;09 - 00;29;45;08
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;29;45;11 - 00;30;07;18
Speaker 2
And his word lays out this is what God believes is best for us, not God believes God knows is best for us because he knows better than us. And this is the hardest thing, I think, for us to get our minds that God knows better than us because we think we know better than him. That's right. So I'm going to live according to my truth, even if it goes against what he tells me is best.
00;30;07;18 - 00;30;26;12
Speaker 2
And so at some point we have to humble ourselves and reserve ourself to the fact that we don't know everything. God knows better. And I may not even necessarily agree with everything, but I go, I'm going to trust him over me because I know how broken I am. I know how fleshly I am, I know how imperfect I am.
00;30;26;14 - 00;30;50;17
Speaker 2
So I think I should probably trust the perfect one, that he actually doesn't know what's best. And so that's a great encouragement for us. I think as we end this, you know, topic, he knows what's best. Let's trust him. But ultimately, let's live with love. And I think that is part of how he told us to live, which is the best with the heart full of love, not a heart full of hate and anger and and pride.
00;30;50;23 - 00;30;52;22
Speaker 1
The man, as you call it. Fellas.
00;30;52;25 - 00;30;55;18
Speaker 2
The call up.
00;30;55;20 - 00;30;58;16
Speaker 2
What? That we live with love and trust. He knows better than us.
00;30;58;18 - 00;31;22;10
Speaker 1
Trust that for everything. We're all pursuing love, joy, peace, patience. Right? Yeah. I mean, just think peace. God's plan is for us to have perfect peace. If you don't have it, find out why. And if you want it for others, ask them. You know. Can I share with you how I found peace by obeying God's Word? And I think in that spirit, I don't know about, you know what?
00;31;22;10 - 00;31;43;16
Speaker 1
I could speak for all the brothers, but my experience with people who decide to follow Christ, it's because they've tasted and seen. Yeah, but he's good. Yes. And this path is is the right path. And that's why they choose it. Because they find out. Whoa! I can follow everything the world says I should chase money and I should chase possessions, and I should chase sexual satisfaction and pleasure.
00;31;43;16 - 00;31;59;13
Speaker 1
I should chase all these things that make me feel right. Or I could chase the one who gives me all of those, all the so much more than those things multiplied, you know, 100 x over more of all of those things you're chasing. He has more. It's better, you say.
00;31;59;13 - 00;32;05;23
Speaker 2
That made me think about what you said earlier, which was, I think another call up. You said to just pray for them.
00;32;05;23 - 00;32;06;08
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;32;06;11 - 00;32;25;03
Speaker 2
Because I think of all the guys listening, there's probably people there like, I want them to know the truth, and I want them to live the lifestyle that's best for them. And from God. You can't convince them. I've tried, okay, with people. I've never been able to convince anyone, but it is the kindness of God that leads them to repentance.
00;32;25;03 - 00;32;35;02
Speaker 2
Amen. I just point them to Jesus. I point them to his Spirit and in time, and I think often I've seen that he convicts.
00;32;35;02 - 00;32;35;15
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;32;35;17 - 00;32;51;01
Speaker 2
It's the Holy Spirit that convicts, not us. He will convict their heart. He will show them the error of their ways. He will show them that he has a better way and that he loves them. So what do we do? Well, we speak the truth, but we also pray. And that's what you said earlier. Just pray for them.
00;32;51;01 - 00;32;52;02
Speaker 2
Pray for those people.
00;32;52;02 - 00;33;12;21
Speaker 1
I'll let the guys in on something. Some years back, I was asking God about these topics because whether it's people in my immediate family circle or beyond were or people I wanted to see come to Christ. And so the Lord introduced a term to me prayer. Evangelism. Yeah. Okay. I see that in the Bible. And so what the Lord had me do is make a list.
00;33;12;23 - 00;33;30;22
Speaker 1
And I pray this list and I add people to it. I had situations, problems, and then when it's answered, it gets dropped to the bottom with a little green checkmark. And so this list has 90 something prayer requests on it, right now. And I add to it all the time. And what I have found is God is so faithful to add those green checks.
00;33;30;29 - 00;33;48;23
Speaker 1
Yeah, more than I ever could because I may not be able to outthink you, outsmart you. I'll convince you, turn you. But if I can pray for you, then it's not me who gets the glory and the honor. It's him. And so there you go, fellas. Let's pray. Let's pray, people to where we and ourselves. To where God wants us.
00;33;48;26 - 00;34;11;19
Speaker 2
So good. Well, hey, thanks for joining us for the Faith podcast. Love y'all. We'll see you next time. If you are getting a lot out of this, please, like it on Instagram. You see the clips. Follow us. Man of faith. PA, if you're on YouTube right now, definitely like the video. Subscribe to the channel if you're not already subscribed, and then be sure to share this with anyone you know.
00;34;11;21 - 00;34;18;23
Speaker 2
We're always on Spotify iTunes as well. Men of Faith podcast. Love y'all. We'll see you next time. Grace and peace.
00;34;18;23 - 00;34;19;05
Speaker 1
Is.