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Derek and Reed ponder how deal with bad managers, especially those who act as bullies.
Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Essential Dynamics is back. I'm Reed McColm, your host, and I have with me mister Derek Hudson who will teach us all about essential dynamics yet again. Derek, are you there?
Derek:I'm here. Hey, Reid. I I just wanna compliment your guitar playing. Thank you so much. And and I wanna actually I picked the song.
Reed:Yeah. I it was hard to follow because they were written in crayon.
Derek:But the the song is called Feeling Good Blues.
Reed:Feeling Good Blues.
Derek:Yes. Yes. If if you think about this idea of dynamic forces, feeling good blues just seemed to fit the whole concept.
Reed:It's perfect for us, Derek, because you're feeling good and I'm blues. So it works for us.
Derek:Yeah. And we're hip for our age.
Reed:Absolutely. And we use the word hip so that proves it.
Derek:That's right.
Reed:Derek, last time we were talking, just toward the end of the episode, we kind of came up with this or you did this kind of pithy thought that people don't leave companies, they leave managers. I think that's fascinating and I want to expand on that. Do you have more to think about that?
Derek:Well, so if you think about I'm just gonna go back to the beginning of essential dynamics. I'll just overview it really quickly here. Essential dynamics puts the things that we do in the context of a quest.
Reed:Right.
Derek:And we're on the you know, it may seem mundane, but we can look at things as an adventure where we're trying to accomplish something great. And the way we do that is usually some group of people goes on a journey, to accomplish a purpose. So we talk about people, path, and purpose.
Reed:Right.
Derek:So we're kind of in the people zone here. Think oh, I think it all it all connects. And the dynamic forces is the other thing we talk about, that there's this is this opposing, sometimes con complementary forces that we can look at for people, path, and purpose and are, you know, constant in our life. And on the people side, the way I look at it is that there's this dynamic tension between the individual and the group. And it's super inconvenient in, an organizational hierarchy that individuals are individual.
Derek:Mhmm. You know, that they kind of have their own minds and they have their own.
Reed:But they're not automatons?
Derek:They're not automatons. They're they're not, closed systems where if you get the put the input in, you get the same output every time. And and so this idea that people leave managers really is, the embodiment of this principle that individuals are agents. They're their own people and they get to make choices. And at some point, the choice might be take this job and shove it.
Derek:And it's a disaster most of the time in an organisation when it gets to that point.
Reed:Yeah. Of course.
Derek:So so one of the things I'm interested in is, you know, how can how can that happen? How can it keep happening? And how can you how can you prevent it? But so, Reid, you've been involved in different industries than I have.
Reed:Mhmm.
Derek:Have you seen bad managers in
Reed:Oh, I have emulated bad managers. I have tried to avoid them in many cases, but I find that in my chosen profession of theater and film that management varies wildly. And it's often thought the creator or the director, in film anyway, the director is often the one who gets tasked with being the manager of the piece. And creatively, that may be true, but also a producer can be a manager and have a great effect on the success or failure of a production, whether that be on stage, television, or film. And I have seen many projects scuttled mid work because of bad management.
Reed:I've also seen, in some examples, a project that I didn't think could work work because everybody was properly committed. I have seen shows that I don't particularly like that turn out to be delightful productions because everybody was so committed to them, and vice versa. I think in theater, that's a really good example of what you're speaking of. However, it's far more ethereal. I don't really have I ever quit a show?
Reed:I've I've left the show because of sickness. But anyway, I'm wondering, it doesn't happen very often that someone who is cast in a show is fired or quits. Usually you just you take your lumps and go and get all the way through. Because of the ethereal nature of the product, it's only especially in theater, it's only up for a few weeks, or if you're on Broadway, A Few Months. Your contract is of a temporary piece.
Reed:Rather than in the world of business, if I went to work atif I was a CFO, for instance, for some company, my contract would be and my expectations would be, I think, to stay as long as possible.
Derek:Yeah. Yeah. That's right, Readen. I've worked in both environments. Mhmm.
Derek:Like, I've been an employee really since graduation three times. Oh. And twelve and a half years, thirteen and a half years, and seven years. And in between those times, I've been a consultant and then I have projects that have gone on for, you know, six months or one year or something like that. And I'm currently in project mode and I I expect I'll stay in project mode for the rest of my career.
Derek:And so then, you know, you don't sort of quit the company or a boss. You just end a project and there's something far more flexible in that. But I, you know, I know a lot of people and I've had, you know, people in organizations I've worked in that have been in the same job or at least the same company for ten years or twenty years or thirty years. Uh-huh. And, you know, in a in a longer term situation when it breaks down like, some people when they're young, you know, they're kinda bouncing around trying to find their groove or they're interested in a bigger paycheck or something.
Reed:That's natural. That's really Yeah. It's natural in your twenties, I suppose, to career from career to career. And that's expected to a certain degree, find yourself. But when they get to be our age, which of course is 40, then we should probably be more staid or have an idea of what's happening.
Derek:Yeah. So I'm I'm thinking of a couple of bad manager situations that that I'm aware of. And I won't say where or give me the details, but, you know, there was one I'm thinking of right now that, for whatever reason, was allowed to continue for what I think was many years.
Reed:Uh-huh.
Derek:And this was a manager that had frontline staff that were customer facing. And from the reports that I got, he was just, like, mean Mhmm. And bossy and, you know, authoritarian.
Reed:That's like you?
Derek:No. No. No. No. I'm not no.
Derek:Sir, did I say that? No. No. This this manager Mhmm. Was was, you know, people were afraid of him.
Reed:I see.
Derek:And and people didn't couldn't come up to him with good ideas. They just did what he said when he was around and he wasn't around. They talked bad about it. Right. So, you know, what I'm interested in is how an organization would sustain the employment of someone like that.
Derek:You know, people leave because they have a bad manager and the organization above that bad manager wants those people to stay, particularly, you know, if they've learned the ropes and stuff like that. So that takes But for
Reed:years and years, Derek, bullying has worked in our society. It's just recently. In fact, it's within the last five years that we've really started fighting back against bullying.
Derek:So Reid, I think we just kind of are starting down a different path on our topic here and I think it's a good one. I think no, no. I think it's important. People don't leave companies, leave managers. Yeah.
Derek:And a lot of times, it's because the manager is a bully.
Reed:Yeah. I'm saying but I'm saying from the corporate standpoint, frequently bullying was tolerated because of because of, the bully on the assembly line who whips people and says, Create harder. Move faster. Is applauded by upper echelon because the assembly line is moving, what, more efficiently?
Derek:Well, I didn't even know if that's the case. But, there are some institutional reasons that bullying hasn't been, hasn't been dealt with as well as it's been. And and the one thing that comes to mind for me is if there's bullying kind of all the way up the line, then it becomes what I'll call asymmetrical.
Reed:Mhmm.
Derek:You bully your employees and you suck up to your boss.
Reed:Mhmm.
Derek:And so your boss doesn't know that you're a bully because you're nice to your boss. Right. And your employees are afraid to go around you because you have so much power over them.
Reed:Because of consequences? Sure.
Derek:And so they don't speak up. And so you're in an organization that's in this huge, you know, mass hallucination where everyone thinks one thing's happening in which actual reality, the opposite is happening everywhere. And so the boss thinks that their people are loyal because they tell the boss what they want to hear and say, you know, yes, sir. How? Hi, sir.
Derek:As soon as the boss leaves the room, they talk bad about the boss.
Reed:Right. Right. And this is not just your industry or any corporate industry. It's also applicable to mine. For years, there have been examples of bullies who are directors who get their results through bullying.
Reed:Jerome Robbins was considered one of the great directors of the world, but he was a bully. And when I'm thinking of film, I think of Harvey Weinstein for years, for decades, able to maneuver his work or the work of his company into the best slots, into Oscar nominations, into as much attention as possible. But there's no question, he was a bully and he assaulted people in order to get what he wanted. He was a he was a terrible man. And we only know that now.
Derek:So let's take just think about that for a second. You know, we we gave advice to the middle managers in the past. Let's just let's just think about employees for a second and what advice would we give them and what would we advice would we give people who can help. And so on the on the question of advice to employees, the one thing I can say is you need to have confidence in your ability to add value in more than one situation.
Reed:Okay. Define that more than one situation.
Derek:Well, a lot of times we identify with our job or our employer and we think, you know, I need this job. I I can't I can't leave it because I need the money. I I'll never work get paid this much again or I I couldn't find a job in this field. You know, everyone's self dignity is is worth more than money. And I like to think about I use this a lot with young people when I'm coaching.
Derek:This idea of transferable skills.
Reed:Okay.
Derek:You And you get locked into doing a particular job and you're good at it and you're confident there. But there's no job that is so specialized that you can't take the skills you learned from that job and move them to something else. You know? And we're we're here with Bran. He's turned from radio to podcast.
Derek:He's gonna broadcast again. You know? The skills actually you know, he's got them wherever he goes.
Bryn Griffiths:You you know, I I gotta say one thing about about this. I mean, I am gonna jump in on this one because it's a great topic. I've seen some horrible managers. I've learned a lot more from the horrible managers than the great ones. But my dad always told me before I really got my, you know, got my feet under me when I was 18.
Bryn Griffiths:He always said, to be a good manager in his estimation, it was important to have open ears. It was more important to have open ears over an open mouth. And I and I thought about that, and I went, what does he mean by that? Of course, at 18, you you you know, you think there's a couple things. One, laugh it off.
Bryn Griffiths:Right? That's what 18 year olds would often do in my case. But but if you want if you want to have team a team atmosphere, communication is essential. So if your manager is not listening to what you're saying, it ain't gonna work. And I worked in television, which is I'll tell you what, I've worked on air on television.
Bryn Griffiths:There is a really people don't see it as a team effort, but somebody up in the control room can make you who looks you know, who's on television look like the idiot by running the wrong tape or giving you the wrong cues. So you have everybody's got to pull together as a unit, and everybody's got to talk to one another. So for me, the biggest thing is if there's no trust that what you say at the top is coming down nicely to the bottom or vice versa, It ain't gonna work. It's just not gonna work and in radio, it's even more so that way because you've got people bringing individual skills to the table yet. It's still a team effort, so you have to make sure that everybody everybody recognizes that there's value in what's being said And the bad managers I've had were horrible listeners.
Bryn Griffiths:The great managers that I've had were great listeners, and that that would be the only thing that I would throw out there.
Derek:But no. I I appreciate that, Brin. And going to the point about what do you put up with, I, you know, I've I was in a situation for a while where my boss didn't listen to me. And and it only lasted a few months because it was, you know, impossible to add any value when you didn't have any input. And I imagine there are a lot of people like that.
Derek:So on the one hand, if you're bullied, on the other hand, if you're dismissed, I just would encourage people to find your source of strength and your capacity. The skills you have, they're useful other places. And you'll do a way better job when you're in a place where you're, you know, sort of welcome and accepted and your ideas are accepted and you can can do good stuff. But it's I mean, that's a that's a tricky transition. That's a hard It
Reed:can be. Can very hard advice to follow because we love we know the devil we know. Here's the devil we know. And if you if I leave this job, do I have another one waiting? Can I afford to stand on my dignity, or should I swallow it because I'm getting paid and I need the money to make my rent?
Reed:I'm amazed at people who have the fortitude to stand up for themselves at all times. I don't know anybody really who does that at all times, but the ones who do tend to be the most content with their situation in life. I also find that the most effective managers are the ones who serve best, who aren't afraid to roll up their sleeves and work with hoi polloi, with their workers. They don't consider themselves necessarily above them.
Derek:Absolutely. You know, we talked about that when we talked about leadership and the the character ethic and stuff like this. Going back to bullying for a second, I'm surprised we got there, but I I wanna add one other thing. And that is
Reed:Yeah. Speak from your experience as a bully.
Derek:Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I really hope I haven't been.
Derek:Just one other concept and that is the idea of allies. So I recently got involved on a committee for equity, diversity, and inclusion for an organization that I'm working with.
Reed:Uh-huh.
Derek:And I was in a meeting where it was stated that the problem was there's too many old white guys. Oh. So I I expressed my challenge at being able to help when I was part of the problem. Mhmm. And it was a good I mean, it's good people.
Derek:It's a good conversation. But one of the one of the things somebody said was, you can always be an ally. And I think that for all of us, if we're ever aware of bullying, you know, if you're in an organization, you do something about it. If you're, you know, aware of it in someone else's organization, like, don't have any authority, you can't influence it. Be an ally to the person who's being downtrodden.
Derek:Help them see who they really are and, you know, help them get out of the out of the mess. Because I think you're right, Reid. You know, people are in these interdependent co dependent situations. It's bad for them but they can't see another way. And the idea of having an ally might make all the difference.
Reed:Right.
Derek:You know, so you could be an ally in an organization or outside an organization or even just for decency in society in general. We can't put up with stuff like that. I'm surprised we're talking about it, but on the other hand, I feel so bad for someone who feels like they're trapped in that situation and, you know, people should help.
Reed:I completely understand that. I am so glad that we have talked about it. We'll probably need to talk about it again in some context. But until we do, Derek, where can people find you?
Derek:Easy to easy to track me down at derek hudson dot c a. That's d e r e k for Derek, the only way to spell it.
Reed:Right. And I'm Reed McCollum. The j is silent, and I'm your host. And Brent Griffiths is our engineer
Bryn Griffiths:Mhmm.
Reed:On our behalf. Ladies and gentlemen, please consider your quest.