141: Rutger Katz: Cutting through the fluff of Lean methodology and recognizing when process gets in the way of efficiency

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Rutger Katz, GTM Operations Consultant.

Summary: Rutger helps us cut through the fluff of Lean methodology in marketing and how to spot when process gets in the way of efficiency. His advice is to cut out the waste—whether in your process, your tech stack, or how you measure success. Focus on what drives conversions, keep your systems lean, and use simple structures to maintain speed without sacrificing alignment. We also tackle tech debt and how a top-layer AI interface could simplify the case for a composable martech stack.

About Rutger

• Rutger started his career in Neuroscience as a virtual reality developer at two different public research universities to study bodily illusions in VR
• As the VR industry was quite immature at the time he pivoted to martech consulting, where he would spend 12 years working with different technology consulting firms getting a breadth of experience across marketing operations, martech, customer data and go-to-market across a variety of clients including Unilever where he focused on social analytics
• And last year Rutger decided to go out on his own as a GTM Operations Consultant and recently launched NEON Triforce, a boutique consultancy focused on optimizing GTM for B2B scale-ups
• He also recently joined The Martech Weekly as Content Lead for EU & UK organizing their first event in London.

Lean Marketing in Practice

Lean marketing is all about eliminating waste and doubling down on what truly matters. Rutger emphasizes that no matter the size of the company, from a startup to an enterprise, inefficiencies always creep in. These processes—whether learned from someone else or ingrained as “the way things are done”—often aren’t optimal. Lean seeks to strip down these ingrained habits, perfecting the path to deliver value to customers.

Rutger highlights that lean marketing goes beyond just being "efficient." It is about understanding how every action connects back to the entire organization. The real challenge is aligning marketing efforts with revenue-driving KPIs, rather than fixating on vanity metrics like page views or social media follows. For Rutger, Lean is about cutting through those superficial measures to ensure that marketing impacts the business holistically.

What makes lean particularly valuable is that it doesn't stop at marketing. Rutger explains that Lean should apply to your entire go-to-market strategy. This means assessing not just how marketing operates but how it interlocks with sales, customer success, and even product development. It's about delivering maximum value to the customer while ensuring that the organization operates as efficiently as possible in providing that value.

Lean marketing is not a standalone function—it’s a way to optimize the whole organization. When done right, it leads to higher customer satisfaction, longer-term retention, and ultimately, a more streamlined business. For Rutger, this is where the real impact of Lean lies—not just in marketing efficiencies but in enhancing the customer experience across every touchpoint.

Key takeaway: Lean marketing is about focusing on what truly drives value. It's not just about marketing—it's about creating efficiency across your entire go-to-market approach, from sales to customer success, all while tying back to key business metrics.


Solving Inefficiencies in Sales and Marketing Alignment

When asked about real-world applications of lean methodologies, Rutger didn’t hesitate to dig into a common yet overlooked issue: the disconnect between sales and marketing. In his experience, CMOs often claim that everything is running smoothly. But when the conversation shifts towards collaboration with sales, the cracks begin to show. One CMO even mentioned that their sales team requested fewer leads, as they were overwhelmed by the volume. Others spoke of back-and-forth frustrations trying to sync efforts between both departments.

For Rutger, the root of inefficiency often comes at the handoff between marketing and sales. He explained that marketing teams frequently misinterpret sales-qualified leads (SQLs), sending what they define as SQLs but which sales deems unqualified. This misalignment creates friction, wasting time and resources on both sides. To fix this, Rutger advocates stepping back from just marketing processes and focusing on sales first. Understanding sales capacity and needs becomes essential to deliver the right leads at the right time.

A critical step in this process is optimizing for sales’ actual conversion capacity. Rutger highlights that if sales needs to convert 100 leads per month, with a 5% conversion rate, marketing needs to deliver 20 times that amount—2,000 SQLs. He stressed the importance of timely response, pointing out that conversion rates jump by 40% when sales follows up with a lead within 10 minutes. Aligning on this kind of data helps both teams work more effectively toward shared goals.

Rutger also urged teams to reevaluate the quality and cost-effectiveness of their campaigns. While campaigns may generate leads, some are far too costly or inefficient, with payback times stretching out to three or four years. Google paid accounts, for example, are notoriously expensive, yet still widely used, particularly in larger organizations. For Rutger, focusing on the most effective campaigns, while pruning inefficient ones, is key to driving sustainable growth.

Key takeaway: Marketing and sales alignment is critical for driving efficiency. Understanding sales capacity, optimizing lead delivery, and focusing on high-converting campaigns can reduce friction, improve collaboration, and significantly increase conversion rates.


Tackling Tech Debt and Building a Lean Martech Stack

When asked about navigating the complexities of consolidating a tech stack, Rutger didn’t mince words: aligning stakeholders across IT, marketing, and sales is often more political than it is technical. Large enterprises, in particular, face daunting hurdles when trying to scale back on overlapping tools. Rutger noted that the desire to build a “Frankenstack”—a collection of fragmented technologies—comes from every department wanting its own ideal solution. As a result, the journey to a leaner tech stack can seem like a never-ending project.

Rutger’s approach starts with identifying the biggest redundancies. While some overlap is by design, like when one product offers a superior feature, the challenge is to minimize overlap where it's unnecessary. In some cases, up to 60% of a company’s tools perform redundant functions. His advice: focus first on those areas where feature overlap is significant, perhaps 90% or more, and tackle these redundancies gradually. Start small, prioritize high-cost inefficiencies, and avoid a complete tech overhaul in one go.

Another common issue Rutger raised is "shadow IT"—the tools that departments purchase without full organizational knowledge or alignment. Marketing might opt for a quick-fix solution, or sales might buy something that works for them but doesn't integrate with other systems. These rogue tools further complicate efforts to streamline technology, making the case for better communication across departments.

One of Rutger's key strategies is calculating the cost of maintaining outdated systems against the cost of migration. In legacy-heavy sectors like insurance and banking, this is critical. His pragmatic approach weighs the resources, time, and potential revenue impact of migrations. With the rise of AI, Rutger suggests that migration tools could become faster and cheaper, potentially offsetting the costs of restructuring a tech stack. His advice? Keep your options open and look for innovative solutions that might speed up the process.

Key takeaway: When simplifying a tech stack, start by identifying the highest-cost inefficiencies and focusing on reducing redundancy. Calculating the cost of maintaining outdated systems versus migration expenses helps prioritize where to start. Keep an eye on emerging AI solutions that could accelerate the process and lower migration costs.


The Case for a Composable Martech Stack

When asked about composable tech stacks, Rutger emphasized the value of slimming down tools to only what is truly necessary. He coined the term “feature as a service,” contrasting it with the more traditional “software as a service” approach. For Rutger, the future lies in using highly focused, single-feature solutions that easily integrate through standardized APIs. This allows teams to build lean, efficient stacks while avoiding the bloat that often comes with enterprise platforms.

Rutger painted a picture of an ideal future where composable stacks are powered by GenAI, enabling users to interact with the system through an intuitive AI interface. In this vision, instead of managing dozens of different tools, AI would seamlessly hook up the right features based on what the user needs. No more juggling multiple interfaces—just a clean, streamlined platform that grows with your organization.

However, Rutger acknowledged the main counter-argument: managing multiple tools increases the risk of tech debt. As companies scale, the number of tools can easily grow to 25, 30, or more, creating complexity in troubleshooting and maintaining the stack. When something breaks, the challenge of diagnosing the issue across so many endpoints can be daunting, leading to what many fear as a “Frankenstack.”

But Rutger’s solution offers a way forward. By focusing on a top-layer AI interface, organizations can simplify how they manage their composable stack. Rather than having to deal directly with multiple vendors, AI could automate much of the decision-making and system integration. In essence, AI becomes the key to making composability both lean and scalable.

Key takeaway: A composable martech stack offers flexibility and efficiency by utilizing highly focused, single-feature solutions. However, managing too many tools can lead to tech debt. Rutger’s solution: leverage AI to create a unified interface that connects the best tools without the complexity of managing multiple systems manually.


How a Top-Layer AI Interface Could Simplify Composable Tech Stacks

When asked about managing the complexity of a composable tech stack, Rutger highlighted how a top-layer AI interface could revolutionize this process. Instead of manually integrating dozens of tools, AI could act as a central hub, configuring the right features based on the organization’s needs. This AI-powered interface would handle vendor selection, integration, and maintenance, freeing up teams to focus on more strategic tasks.

Rutger described a future where AI marketplaces allow businesses to plug and play with the best feature vendors seamlessly. The AI would evaluate which tools fit best with the organization’s existing setup, handling the complexity of integrations automatically. While this future isn’t here yet, Rutger suggested it could become reality in the next five to ten years. For companies that are tech-savvy and data-driven, this AI layer could simplify managing a complex stack of tools and make the whole system more agile.

However, Rutger stressed that not every organization is ready for this shift. Many companies still rely on IT to manage all their systems, and the culture around adopting cutting-edge technology just isn’t there. Large, traditional businesses, especially in sectors like insurance and logistics, often lack the maturity needed to manage multiple integrations. For them, a full-suite solution is still the best option.

In the end, Rutger’s vision of an AI-powered interface is a game-changer for companies ready to embrace it. But for many organizations, the path to this level of sophistication will take time and a significant cultural shift.

Key takeaway: A top-layer AI interface can simplify the management of a composable tech stack by automating vendor selection and integrations. While this future holds great promise, only organizations with a high level of tech maturity will be ready to adopt it. Companies must assess their readiness before shifting to an AI-driven solution.


Shifting from Micromanagement to Continuous Improvement

When asked about the misuse of project management tools for tracking who’s doing what, Rutger was clear: this is a micromanagement issue, not a project management one. For Rutger, the real value in implementing a new process, whether it's lean or agile, is in fostering continuous improvement, not in scrutinizing task completions. Leaders who approach project management with a mindset of monitoring rather than empowering their teams miss the bigger picture of growth and collaboration.

Rutger emphasized that project management should focus on creating an environment where employees can grow and improve their performance over time. Instead of fixating on current key performance indicators (KPIs), he advises leaders to think about progress—how far a team has come and where it can go. A lean methodology, for instance, encourages ongoing development rather than static assessment. Teams should strive to meet KPIs over months, not weeks, and once those goals are reached, ask, "What’s next?"

He also highlighted the importance of considering context. If leaders only look at a moment in time—how the team is performing right now—they miss the broader trends of improvement. Rutger pointed out that some employees, while not immediate stars, show steady improvement. Conversely, top performers who create toxicity within the team can hurt overall morale and productivity. A continuous improvement mindset helps leaders identify these dynamics and respond accordingly.

In Rutger’s view, project management is about creating an environment where teams can thrive. It’s not about keeping tabs on who is doing what at every moment, but about supporting the team’s long-term growth through collaboration, better tools, and a culture of feedback.

Key takeaway: Project management should empower teams to continuously improve, not be a tool for micromanagement. Leaders should focus on progress over time, considering both context and collaboration, to foster growth and boost team performance.


Balancing Speed and Process in Fast-Paced Startups

When asked about striking the balance between executing quickly and sticking to processes, Rutger made a clear distinction between speed and velocity. He recalled a quote from a RevOps certification that perfectly captured the dilemma: "You can go fast, but you won’t go far if you go in the wrong direction." In startups, the temptation to push forward without a structured process is strong, but Rutger warned that this approach can lead to inefficiencies, wasted resources, and, ultimately, solving the wrong problems.

Rutger pointed out that while rapid execution feels productive, it can often create long-term issues. He referred to the aggressive growth-at-all-costs mentality that many companies embraced until 2022, noting that while these businesses scaled quickly, many are now paying four times as much as they should to acquire customers. These inefficiencies are a direct result of skipping over key processes during their early growth stages.

However, Rutger doesn’t advocate for rigid processes either, especially in startups. He recommends a balanced approach—simple tools like a daily 15-minute check-in or Kanban boards can help teams stay on track without bogging them down in lengthy project management frameworks. A quick stand-up allows the team to identify blockers, escalate issues, and ensure that KPIs are on target, all while keeping the focus on execution.

The trick, according to Rutger, is to avoid forcing complex frameworks like agile or scrum in a way that slows the organization. Startups, in particular, need to find the leanest ways to use tools and processes to ensure they’re moving in the right direction without stifling momentum. It's about building just enough process to stay aligned while still getting the work done efficiently.

Key takeaway: Startups should focus on finding a balance between speed and process. Implementing simple tools like daily check-ins and Kanban boards ensures that teams stay aligned without sacrificing velocity. Avoid overly complex frameworks and aim for the leanest way to move toward your goals while solving the right problems.


Striking the Right Balance Between Process and Execution

When asked about balancing process with efficiency, Rutger took a pragmatic approach, acknowledging the frustrations many teams face when leaders try to implement methodologies like lean, agile, or safe. He pointed out that while these frameworks can add value, they are often introduced with a heavy hand, leading to resistance and slowing down progress. For Rutger, the key is starting small and adopting an iterative mindset rather than diving headfirst into a full-scale cultural overhaul.

Rutger explained that many leaders come in with a “black belt” mindset, assuming that by introducing these processes, everything will magically fall into place. The reality, however, is that implementing methodologies like lean requires time, patience, and cultural change. And when tools and processes are piled on all at once, it often leads to inefficiencies and frustration. This is why Rutger advocates for starting small, identifying teams that are willing to embrace change, and iterating on what works.

He suggested that change management should be done gradually, focusing on smaller issues first. By starting with a single team that is open to new processes, learning from their experiences, and sharing those successes across the organization, companies can build momentum without overwhelming their teams. This incremental approach allows leaders to see what genuinely adds value and what might be slowing down operations.

Rutger also pointed out that for startups, this iterative approach is even more critical. Startups often don’t have the luxury of time, and adding too much process can grind things to a halt. Instead, teams should be agile in their approach to methodologies like lean—testing, learning, and adapting along the way.

Key takeaway: When implementing methodologies like lean or agile, start small and iterate. Focus on gradual cultural change, learning from small wins, and building momentum over time. This incremental approach prevents process from getting in the way of progress, especially in fast-paced startups.


Maintaining Creative Freedom in a Process-Driven Environment

When asked about balancing creative freedom with the constraints of processes like agile, Rutger emphasized the importance of carving out time for deep, uninterrupted work. In today’s corporate world, where communication tools and meetings often dominate the schedule, creative and strategic thinkers can find themselves buried under daily scrums, status updates, and endless task reviews. Rutger was quick to point out that this type of environment can stifle creativity and hinder productivity.

Rutger noted that creative roles, whether in development or strategy, require time to think, explore, and focus deeply. These roles benefit from stretches of uninterrupted time, where one can reflect and solve complex problems without constant interruptions. He argued that companies need to recognize the value of this “deep work” time and protect it in their employees' schedules. Without it, employees are left feeling drained, unable to meet their key performance indicators (KPIs) or achieve meaningful goals.

One of Rutger’s key recommendations for managing meetings was to implement more efficient practices. He pointed out that many meetings are unnecessarily long, filled with irrelevant chatter, and attended by people who don’t need to be there. Meetings should be tightly focused, with only essential participants and a clearly defined agenda. He suggested circulating the agenda ahead of time, so participants are prepared and can avoid wasting valuable time on trivial discussions or unrecognized data points.

At the heart of Rutger’s advice is a simple principle: give employees the space to work efficiently by reducing unnecessary meetings and allowing time for deep, focused work. It’s a balancing act, but with the right approach, companies can ensure both accountability and creative freedom.

Key takeaway: To maintain creativity and productivity, organizations must protect time for deep work and minimize unnecessary meetings. Efficient meetings with a clear agenda and only essential participants allow employees to stay focused on high-impact tasks without sacrificing creative freedom.


The Value of Leading Indicators with Context

When asked about the balance between leading and lagging indicators in measuring marketing success, Rutger emphasized that leading indicators—such as social media follower growth or spikes in web traffic—are valuable but only when viewed in the right context. While these metrics can give early signals of whether a campaign is gaining traction, Rutger cautioned that they can sometimes be misleading if they aren’t connected to long-term results like revenue or customer loyalty.

Rutger pointed out that leading indicators need to be followed over time, ideally through cohort studies that track customers from their first interaction through the entire revenue cycle. By doing this, companies can better understand whether early signs of success, like a surge in website visitors, translate into loyal, repeat customers later down the line. The goal is to establish causation rather than coincidence—just because a campaign boosts web traffic doesn’t necessarily mean it’s driving meaningful business outcomes.

He also warned about the potential for leading indicators to be misused. Departments might celebrate short-term success without considering the long-term effects. Rutger gave the example of "shotgun marketing," where a campaign might generate impressive traffic numbers upfront, only for the brand’s reputation to suffer a year later when emails get flagged as spam due to poor targeting. This kind of short-sighted thinking can ultimately harm the brand and undermine customer trust.

For Rutger, the most reliable metric of success isn’t just a single leading indicator but the overall customer experience. Companies that excel across marketing, sales, and customer success are the ones that build lasting relationships. He believes that aligning these departments to deliver consistent value throughout the customer journey is far more valuable than focusing solely on short-term performance metrics.

Key takeaway: Leading indicators, like social media growth or web traffic, are valuable when placed in a broader context and tracked over time. To truly measure success, companies should connect early signals with long-term outcomes like revenue and customer loyalty, ensuring campaigns are designed for lasting impact, not just short-term wins.


Rethinking Marketing Attribution and Causation

When asked about the challenges of measuring marketing’s true impact, Rutger didn’t hesitate to question traditional approaches like multi-touch attribution (MTA). While MTA is often used to track the visible path to conversion, Rutger argued that it doesn’t truly reveal what caused a customer to convert. Instead, he emphasized the importance of listening directly to customers to understand what really influenced their decision-making.

Rutger noted that much of what drives conversions happens in what he referred to as “dark social”—the untraceable conversations happening in peer-to-peer networks, industry communities, and informal discussions between colleagues. Customers may report that they heard about a product through Google, but that’s often just where they went to search for a brand they were already familiar with. In reality, their decision to purchase may have been shaped by a recommendation from a trusted colleague, not the paid search ad they clicked.

One of Rutger’s key points was that relying too heavily on MTA can lead to misleading conclusions. Instead, he advocated for more focus on customer journey orchestration—tracking where customers engage on a website and what content they consume. By understanding this journey, marketers can better tailor their efforts to the real needs and interests of their audience. He highlighted the concept of a "marketing waiting room," where only a small percentage of customers are ready to buy immediately, but many others are gradually nurtured until they are in-market.

Rutger also suggested that customer self-reporting is often more valuable than traditional attribution models. By directly asking customers how they discovered a product or service, companies can gain deeper insights into what truly influenced their decision, rather than relying on what Rutger calls “doubtful” metrics like social media or LinkedIn attributions.

Key takeaway: While multi-touch attribution can show the visible path to conversion, it doesn’t reveal what truly caused a sale. Marketers should prioritize understanding the full customer journey, listening to direct feedback from customers, and focusing on nurturing potential buyers over time to identify what drives real conversions.


The Importance of Data Minimization in a Lean Strategy

When asked about how lean principles apply to data tracking, Rutger made a compelling argument for being strategic and mindful about what data organizations truly need. He emphasized the common mistake many tech companies make: collecting massive amounts of data and storing it in a warehouse or CDP without clear long-term plans. While it’s tempting to save data for potential future use, Rutger warned that this approach can lead to inefficiency, especially when much of it may never be utilized.

Rutger explained that companies should focus on what they’re trying to accomplish in the next few years and consider how external market forces might shape their future data needs. While it’s essential to plan for the future, organizations also need to balance their current data tracking efforts. Rutger noted that the mistake often lies in overestimating what will happen five to ten years down the road while underestimating the changes that can occur in just two years.

He introduced a fascinating concept about the future of customer interactions—personal AI agents that will act as intermediaries for individuals. In this vision, brands will no longer be communicating directly with customers but with these personalized AI assistants. Companies will need to prove their relevance and value to these agents by offering content that’s deeply personalized, going beyond the basic data points often labeled as "personalization" today.

Rutger argued that brands will need to earn their way through what he calls a "content firewall." This firewall will filter out the noise from irrelevant, impersonal communications, meaning only the most trusted, relevant, and interesting brands will break through. The challenge for marketers will be creating content that not only aligns with a customer’s professional or personal values but also stands out in a highly competitive and AI-driven content landscape.

Key takeaway: To adopt lean principles for data, organizations must focus on collecting only the data they need today while planning strategically for future needs. As customer interactions evolve, brands will increasingly need to communicate with personal AI agents, emphasizing trust, relevance, and deeply personalized content to stand out in the future’s "content firewall" environment.


Finding Balance Through People and Personal Brand

When asked about how he balances his career, family, and personal life, Rutger had a straightforward answer: it all comes down to working with the right people. Reflecting on his own experiences, Rutger shared how early in his career, working under poor management drained his energy and enthusiasm. Now, the key to his happiness lies in collaborating with people who resonate with him—people where there's a natural exchange of value. It’s this type of synergy that keeps him motivated and happy in both his work and personal life.

As a consultant and entrepreneur, Rutger also finds that working for himself gives him the flexibility to enjoy his passions and spend time with his family. He can structure his work around his life, which allows him to be more present with his daughters and, as he puts it, take his “weekend” on a Wednesday. For him, the ability to design his day is one of the biggest perks of entrepreneurship, but he acknowledges that this lifestyle isn't for everyone. He emphasized that some people feel stuck in enterprise roles—either by choice or circumstance—but the power to change their situation often lies in building a strong network.

Networking is something Rutger only truly invested in recently, and it’s been a game-changer for him. It not only led to new friendships but gave him the confidence to start his own business and this podcast. He strongly advises others to focus on building their personal brand, especially in today’s world of AI-generated content. According to Rutger, investing in authenticity and trust is what will help people stand out in a sea of generic content. Being vocal about who you are, what you value, and what you dislike helps connect you with the right people and opportunities.

Key takeaway: Rutger emphasizes that happiness and success come from surrounding yourself with the right people and building an authentic personal brand. By networking intentionally and being outspoken about your values, you not only find the right collaborators but also position yourself for success in an increasingly AI-driven world.


Episode Recap

Rutger helps us cut through the fluff of Lean methodology in marketing and how to spot when process gets in the way of efficiency. His advice is to cut out the waste—whether in your process, your tech stack, or how you measure success. Focus on what drives conversions, keep your systems lean, and use simple structures to maintain speed without sacrificing alignment.

Lean marketing is about cutting out the noise and focusing on what drives real value. Rutger made it clear: it’s not just about better campaigns—it’s about making the entire go-to-market process efficient. Start by getting sales and marketing on the same page. Know how many leads sales can handle, focus on the campaigns that actually convert, and stop wasting time on activities that don’t move the needle.

When it comes to your tech stack, stop adding tools just because they seem useful. Rutger’s advice is to look at where you're wasting the most money first—figure out what’s redundant or outdated. If your system is costing more to maintain than it’s worth, fix it. New AI tools can simplify this, but the priority is cutting the clutter now, not hoping tech will solve your problems later.

Speed matters, especially for startups, but it doesn’t mean throwing process out the window. Rutger suggests keeping it simple: daily check-ins, a basic Kanban board, and enough structure to stay aligned without slowing down. It’s about solving problems quickly without getting bogged down in meetings or endless frameworks.

On measurement, Rutger didn’t mince words: tracking likes and clicks without tying them to revenue is a waste. Sure, leading indicators can be useful, but only if they’re connected to real business outcomes. And when it comes to attribution, MTA shows you what people clicked on—but it doesn’t tell you what actually made them buy. Focus on the full customer journey and get real feedback from buyers to understand what’s working.



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Intro music by Wowa via Unminus
Cover art created with Midjourney

What is Humans of Martech?

Future-proofing the humans behind the tech. Follow Phil Gamache and Darrell Alfonso on their mission to help future-proof the humans behind the tech and have successful careers in the constantly expanding universe of martech.

[00:00:00] Phil: What's up everyone. And today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Rudger Katz, GTM operations consultant. Rudger started his career in neuroscience as a virtual reality developer at two different public research universities to study bodily illusions in VR. But as the VR industry was quite immature at the time, he pivoted to MarTech consulting, where he would Working with different technology consulting firms, getting a breadth of experience across marketing ops, MarTech customer data, and go to market across a variety of clients, including uni lever, where he focused on social [00:01:00] analytics and last year record decided to go out on his own as a GTM operations consultant and recently launched neon triforce.

[00:01:07] A boutique consultancy focused on optimizing GTM. For B2B scale ups, and he also recently joined the Martech Weekly as a content lead for EU and the UK organizing their first event in London record. Thanks so much for your time today. Really pumped to chat.

[00:01:22] Rutger: Thank you for having me, Phil. We're looking forward to this one. Yeah,

[00:01:25] ​

[00:01:25] Phil: [00:02:00] [00:03:00] Yeah. Record. I love marketing and process theory as much as. The next guy, but I'd love to spend an hour with you on like, um, these practical use case for, um, I know that you're a big fan of lean marketing methodologies. And so I want the listeners to be able to apply, uh, you know, potential improvements in their day to day processes. And I know this is a, an area that's really close to your heart. So I'm planning on playing a bit more of the grumpy devil's advocate in this episode, and hopefully you can convince me and, and some other folks that are are listening. Of the value of lean and how it kind of looks like in practicality.

[00:03:50] Lean Marketing in Practice
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[00:03:50] Phil: So maybe we can start with just the definition as I understand it, lean methodology in the context of marketing is about hitting marketing goals efficiently [00:04:00] and identifying the most valuable activities and strategies, and then optimizing those things. Um, so I guess my first question is, can you help me cut through the fluff and like the enterprise speak here? Because I don't know any marketing team that. Isn't in favor of hitting goals efficiently. Like what does lean marketing actually look like in practice when you do this with clients? How do you go about like going beyond, like how to be efficient and really focus on what drives the most value.

[00:04:28] Rutger: of course. I mean, lean marketing focuses on eliminating waste and amplifying what truly drives value. So whenever you, every organization that started as a scale up and has grown into an enterprise has their own processes, right? They, they've started somewhere and it's sort of. Transitioned into what it was right now and for every single, I think almost every single organization you can find inefficiencies in the process because this is how we have [00:05:00] already always done it or this is how we've learned it from this door.

[00:05:03] This is how we've learned from this individual and it might not necessarily be the best process. For what they're trying to achieve. I mean, every organization, every marketing organization is trying to convert customers or send customers to sales or send customers to try the product. Um, or, you know, with branding, put the awareness of the product of the organization in people's heads.

[00:05:26] And what lean does is just, it tries to optimize, perfect the processes in getting the value from the customers or getting the value towards the customers out there. Um, so lean is very. metric driven. It focuses on the KPIs that are tied in this case to revenue, right? I've seen a lot of marketing organizations that have metrics, which are focused on the campaigns individually, or they're focused on page landings, page views on, uh, social media follows.

[00:05:57] But, uh, the entire goal of [00:06:00] Lean is, okay, how does it actually affect the entirety of your organization? Not just the marketing department. So to follow up with that, um, Lean is something that you would want to apply to the entirety of your go to market. So, it looks across sales, customer success, and even product, in ensuring that your customer gains the best value of the organization, but also that you give that value as efficiently as possible, that you the customer as efficiently as possible, getting that higher customer satisfaction, which ensures that customers keep coming back to you, or at least stay with your product for a longer period of time.

[00:06:34] Is that enough? Fluff cut up, cut away. Is there some fluff in there? I've been a consultant for 12 years, right? So it's like my wife says, you're such a talker.

[00:06:48] Phil: No, no, it's helpful. So like there's, there's, yeah, like you said, there's still some like buzzwords, I guess, like in the consulting world and, and marketing, like we're all fans of, uh, buzzwords and, and [00:07:00] a bit more like fluffy terms, like you said, optimizing your processes, like enabling people to continuously improve, finding blockers and bottlenecks when KPIs are down, like, I get this, like, they're like kind of fluffy in a sense because like, all of these things are obvious and like plenty of teams do this, like, I don't feel the need to call this like lean methodologies when I'm like trying to figure out why a KPI is down and like, I'm trying to.

[00:07:26] Make a process more efficient. Right.

[00:07:28] Solving Inefficiencies in Sales and Marketing Alignment
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[00:07:28] Phil: But maybe it'd be helpful if you can like share real world examples where, you know, marketing ops team or a CMO has hired you and you use these principles to fix like a big inefficiency. Be curious to hear like what the steps were and like what the end result was.

[00:07:45] Rutger: So in, in exploring this, you know, I've, I've, I've started working with a couple of CMOs and what they, what, what are the things that they I've asked them, right? What, what is your biggest pain point around prostheses or [00:08:00] this or that? And usually people would say, you know, everything's fine. Everything is.

[00:08:05] Perfect. I mean, we know we can improve and we are improving in the first conversation. It's always sort of looking forward for that, that, that first little spot of a, this is actually an indicator of there's something

[00:08:18] Phil: Yeah.

[00:08:19] Yeah.

[00:08:20] Rutger: And, um, for me, the conversation usually went to, Hey, how's it, how's the collaboration actually with sales?

[00:08:27] And I've had a conversation where they said, well, they've actually asked us to slow down with the amount of leads because they just couldn't You know, deal with the amount of leads that we had. And another one said, yeah, we have discussions with sales. I mean, yeah, we're trying to collaborate easier or better, but it's, it's, it's a little back and forth.

[00:08:44] It's like these come, these. You know that these are the pain points that people usually have is when you've got the handover moment between marketing and sales, when you are trying to deliver what sales wants, when they have the right SQLs, which are actual [00:09:00] SQLs instead of, you know, what marketing defines as SQLs.

[00:09:03] So. In this conversation, what I did is, you know, taking the step back from just a marketing process, look at sales first, because that's further down the line. They sometimes have a certain limitation. They also have a certain expectation. Like sales is very metric driven, very metric oriented as well. They have a certain amount of leads that they need to convert, and they are trying to optimize this as best as possible.

[00:09:25] Marketing opposed to that is often a bit more chaotic. We're running campaigns, we're running events, and we, we mission mosh. And sometimes sales. Hey, we need leads now. So we, we sort of throw out a campaign to sort of cover that immediate need. And the campaign will be good because you know, we're trying to force something out there.

[00:09:43] We're trying to throw something together and you know, it will be good. So what we do is we look at, okay, sales, what is your capacity? How many leads can you actually convert and how can you, um, and how, and what's your target [00:10:00] say, let's say that, uh, sales needs to convert a hundred leads a month and we know that our conversion rate is, you know, 5%. So we know that we need at least 20 times that amount of number of leads. SQL leads going to them month by month. And ideally you want to have that as optimized as possible, right? We know that Justin Norris shared this lately. Um, when you pick up your hand raisers within the first 10 minutes or something, conversion rate increased by 40%.

[00:10:29] So if you can get sales and marketing to collaborate in such a way that we know when sales drops by a good SQL, a good hand raiser, that sales can pick it up Uh, 10 minutes. You have, you know, an incredible business case already right there for the 40 percent increase in conversion rate is quite a lot.

[00:10:47] So by looking at the capacity of sales would work your way back. Okay, how many leads do we actually need to deliver? What do we see in our campaigns? Which campaigns are the most effective? In [00:11:00] delivering, um, quality, high quality leads to sales that convert well, because not every campaign converts equally, equally well downstream.

[00:11:09] So it's also looking at, Hey, which campaigns are actually, you know, working the best with sales. And then you sort of progress and, Hey, actually, we're, we're running a couple of campaigns, which are okay. I mean, they're giving us leads, but actually, if you look at the metrics, We're paying way too much money to get these leads in and they're, you know, the cost, the cost of acquisition payback time is over three years or four years.

[00:11:34] It could be. I know search, Google search accounts are incredibly, Google paid accounts are incredibly inefficient in that way. But they're still used a lot, especially in enterprises.

[00:11:49] Phil: Um, those sound like fun, fun projects. I, I love a good sales and marketing misalignment case study. And then part of plenty of, uh, more of your [00:12:00] first example where like sales couldn't keep up with the volume of leads for marketing. Um, for me, it was always like one or two things.

[00:12:08] Like there's, um, either a lead quality problem, marketing sense, way too many. Shitty leads over to sales or two, like there was a resourcing or performance problem on sales, but in both cases, it almost feels like it was because marketing and sales didn't communicate well, there wasn't a shared understanding of what the ICP is.

[00:12:30] If sales only wants to talk to hand raisers, or if they also want to chat with leads that are super engaged, that just need a nudge. Like there was always a healthy conversation about tooling also though, like. Automation tools to improve efficiencies. Um, you know, that's where like, uh, especially in the world of like the, this alignment piece, like booking demos and stuff like routing and calendar tools, like revenue hero, sponsor of the show up really come into like, make this incredibly effortless for sales, but yeah, the.

[00:12:57] Tackling Tech Debt and Building a Lean Martech Stack
---

[00:12:57] Phil: The tooling conversation with lean [00:13:00] is really interesting because I think a lean tech stack, like avoiding the eventual Franken stack, if you will, is, is the best way to see lean in the wild. Um, and maybe that's like a good, like practical way to, to, yeah. to look at it. Like one example for me, um, that I seen at a recent company that I'm working with, um, like CS is using intercom as their customer database marketing is using segment as their CDP, but the data team without communicating as well are building a big project in snowflake as a data warehouse.

[00:13:32] And so. There would be massive cost savings if everyone in the company use Snowflake and like something like census as the reverse detail to push that data. So like I've consulted with it and worked at companies where there was like a clear overlap in tooling. And I'm sure you've seen those too, but like as much as the end product of like consolidating and like having a really nice. It's lean Martek stack. Like it seems amazing and more cost effective obviously, but the [00:14:00] path to get there is filled with resistance. And frankly, like migration projects that I'm sure you've been part of are often like massive endeavors and they detract people from current priorities that are probably driving revenue.

[00:14:12] Like, how do you make this case internally as a consultant or even in house?

[00:14:17] Rutger: It's, you know, the thing is with technology, it's even more political than something like a marketing or sales, you

[00:14:24] know, in the process in between that, because you've got it stakeholders, you've got marketing VPs, you've got the CFO, the CTO, all with their own vision.

[00:14:33] And then you have the IT department that would love to create their own.

[00:14:37] Iteration of what they

[00:14:38] think is the ideal technology version of, you know, the, the, the Frank and the stack, which you mentioned. So, um, the, the challenge with this, I would say is, you know, going towards a lean technology stack requires so much alignment in, in, in larger enterprises. It is incredibly challenging to do with [00:15:00] smaller enterprise.

[00:15:01] You can easily say, Hey, we're looking at, you know, capability overlap. We're looking at feature overlap. And we know that there's like 60 percent feature overlap in the usual technology stack. Some of it is by design because a certain feature from one product is better than the feature of another product that you're actively using, or which is your primary, um, tool in, in, in that capability.

[00:15:23] So the, the, the, the real solution in this is getting your entirety of the organizational line to look at your technology stack as strategically as possible. All right. Try doing this in a couple of times with my clients, and those were enterprise clients, and it just took ages and ages because it's a long term project to get a good technology stack, right?

[00:15:49] The thing you could do is, you know, look at it as lean as possible and try to sort of scale down on the capabilities that Have a really big overlap, like the ones that have like a 90 percent overlap [00:16:00] or something like that. And of course, you have shadow it as well, where people don't actually know what people are using in an entirety of the organization, which could be like 30 or even more percent of the technology stack could be in shadow it.

[00:16:13] Especially with marketing saying, Hey, yeah, it's all fun and games, but we've got something that's quicker and it's faster and I don't know, sales does the exact same thing. Yeah, but we want a solution now, so we just bought it and, you know, uh, the CMO okayed it or the CRO okayed it. So good luck with that.

[00:16:30] No, but if I would really want to try and fix it, I would. Start with small steps, you know, tackle the highest redundancies first and then sort of start scaling the migration step and in getting rid of the bigger technology debt with this, which is always, you know, the biggest pain point in insurance and banking organizations that have a lot of old, old systems.

[00:16:52] You, there's this theory of constraints within lean where you try and utilize and exploit the bottleneck or an older [00:17:00] system as much as possible as you can. And you sort of, you try to work around everything that that's new and start replacing it while keeping the old monster or whatever it is alive.

[00:17:12] I'm not entirely sure how well it applies to tech depth. But my approach will be okay. Let's just calculate the cost of maintaining or exploiting or utilizing the old solution as much as possible versus the total cost of migration, including the resources and the time spent away from innovation. Um, you know, who knows?

[00:17:33] We might have an AI tool that's coming up soon that's even cheaper and faster in doing a migration because In theory, it's just looking at data in a structured way and retranslating it in a newer way, and the

[00:17:46] same with the processes, right? We, we see that with the speed of GenAI, it really caught almost everyone off guard in, Wow. Within one year, all our creative jobs are gone, save the podcasters, of course, for [00:18:00] now. But, you know, we'll see similar things because it's, it's just pattern recognition. It's reading processes, it's reading, you know, data, and it's not a hard job to do for AI. For, for right now, if people say we have a large tech debt, I would say try and, Work around it as much as possible and explore solutions, which are sort of speeding up the migration process.

[00:18:24] Phil: Yeah, it's such an interesting topic. Like there's so many jumping off points there. Like on, is AI going to be able to replace migration projects? It's like being part of so many of these myself, like the thing that makes them unique and interesting. Interesting is that like every company is different and every team has preferences.

[00:18:44] And even though they have like this big platform, like everyone uses the platform differently and like, maybe they don't use all the features. They just use this thing. And so it'd be so hard for AI to come in and see like how this one company is utilizing this platform. [00:19:00] How is the data structured? Where are the integrations on the backend?

[00:19:02] And how do we. Like convert that to like this other tool. But like the one thing that you said there that I totally echoed with in like similar topic is like platforms aren't built to like, let you just use what you need. And like, that's what makes lean with like tech stacks really hard. Like platforms kind of lock you in and they have like 750 features, but you bought them for like the 13 features that you really need.

[00:19:30] Right.

[00:19:31] For

[00:19:31] Rutger: I know.

[00:19:32] The Case for a Composable Martech Stack
---

[00:19:32] Phil: For me, this is like the greatest argument for a composable MarTech stack and a topic that I've dived into in like countless times on the show, including when we had Scott Brinker on, like, instead of buying a big platform and being locked in for like three years and like utilizing only 20 percent of the platform capabilities, it is more work and it is more complex.

[00:19:52] And you need to have a great relationship with your data and engineering teams. But this idea of utilizing point solutions instead of [00:20:00] platforms point solutions that do like only a few things, but they do it so well, they have a full team of dedicated engineers that are building a product for just those few things.

[00:20:09] And you aren't locked in for like several years, you only end up building for what you currently need. And you still have the flexibility to like add on new things like a new gen AI tool comes on, you add it on top of the stack, you don't have to wait for the platform to come out with it in like five years. What are your thoughts on composability in the context of like marketing and lean?

[00:20:29] Rutger: So I'm a big fan of, you know, getting what I then call feature as a surface instead of software as a surface,

[00:20:36] right? We slim down. Solutions as much as possible, and we try to ensure that they're as integrated as possible because that's the most important point, right? That everything has almost a standardized A.

[00:20:51] P. I. That is just an easiest plug and play. And, you know, if you, if you ship your individual features, you can get [00:21:00] incredible lean tech stacks if vendors do only that. And we already see it with, we see smaller tech companies, especially with Gen AI making it so easy to build things, to run a company. We see bootstrap companies, you know, doing incredibly well with only five people, you know, a couple of people in, in, in, uh, programming.

[00:21:18] Someone in marketing, someone in ops, and that's about it. Um, and if you have. Like this is my ideal future. Right. So let me run for a little bit. If you have like all these single feature vendors and they all do incredibly well, and there's this beautiful gen AI like interface on the top of it, you can just sort of talk to the gen AI interface and the gen AI will figure out, Hey, what is the person actually wanting?

[00:21:45] Oh, that's actually this feature. Let me just, you know, uh, hook it up and, and, and it'll, you don't need. 100 different interface because that's what you might get if you have like 100, uh, single vendors with very tiny features. [00:22:00] Um, and then, then you can just sort of creating your entire own interface for your platform for your organization where everything is sort of covered under for marketing for sales and whoever works in between, um, yeah, those teams.

[00:22:15] Um, that was my idea, but

[00:22:19] I think I diverted, I diverted, I think from your question.

[00:22:22] Phil: No, no, no. It's, it's a super fun topic.

[00:22:25] How a Top-Layer AI Interface Could Simplify Composable Stacks
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[00:22:25] Phil: So like it, it is one of the main like counter arguments to the composable tech stack is

[00:22:29] like, there is a ton of tech debt that could come with this idea of managing like, It's 17, 25, 30 plus different tools as you scale the company. And like, unfortunately, sometimes you could get close to building like that, that frantic stack.

[00:22:43] And when there's

[00:22:44] something that breaks and there's like an issue somewhere, you don't have just the one platform to like diagnose you have like. 30 plus different end points and you need to troubleshoot and all of those things. So you're kind of like explaining this UI on top of like building a [00:23:00] composable stack where you would utilize AI to help you pick and choose the solutions that you need instead of like having to do business with like all these different vendors, you're kind of like focusing on the top layer of UI, I guess.

[00:23:14] Like, am I getting that right?

[00:23:16] Rutger: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I would think that an organization would only sort of have to configure their own, um, UI in face for, you know, what works best for their organization. They know their product, they know the way that their customer buys her product, et cetera. Um, and, uh, you know, you could even go as far as sort of getting a, a.

[00:23:35] Marketplace where the gen and AI sort of figures out, Hey, which is actually the best feature vendor for, for the question I'm getting asked. And, uh, Hey, which one actually integrates the best with solutions I currently have, you know, and sort of really sort of plug in playing, but that's sort of the AI future, which will come around probably, you know, five years or 10 years, I'm not entirely sure, but what you [00:24:00] do see is that an organization needs to be mature enough to handle that.

[00:24:03] And. I've seen plenty of organizations who have never heard of marketing operations who where everything is done by it and still by it and they don't have the organizational maturity yet

[00:24:14] to go into, you know, managing multiple integrations for their solution and in those cases, suites are still the best.

[00:24:24] So you'll still see suites run very well and sell very well for the organization with a low maturity in the marketing in, you know, how data savvy they are, how data driven they're working. And that's just the reality.

[00:24:40] Phil: yeah, yeah,

[00:24:41] no, it's such a good

[00:24:42] Rutger: you know, while we're talking about this, we know that we see a lot of like very agile companies in the news.

[00:24:49] But no, we only see like one or 2 percent

[00:24:51] and, and all the others, there's like a slew of, uh, oil tankers or mammoths, as we used to call them that are

[00:24:59] [00:25:00] incredibly big, you know, they're hard to fail. Um, and it'll just keep on trucking, keep on trucking and it'll keep on going because they're just core to, to our lives.

[00:25:13] You know, the insurance, the logistics, the trains, the postage. I've seen all of these in. They're trying to innovate, but they don't have the culture. They don't have the people for it because people go to those hip and cool companies, you know, the startups, et cetera. So who sticks around at the older companies?

[00:25:32] Phil: yeah, no, it's such a good point. Like it's, it's easy for us to talk about the future of AI and Martek and composable stacks, but like 90 percent of the world is still just trying to figure out what the hell is CDP is and how do I get it to get their hands out of my

[00:25:46] marketing tools?

[00:25:48] Rutger: Well, what, what is marketing ops? Isn't that just marketing?

[00:25:52] Phil: Yeah, no, we're, we're not going down that rabbit hole here.

[00:25:55] Shifting From Micromanagement to Continuous Improvement
---

[00:25:55] ​

[00:25:55] Phil: [00:26:00] [00:27:00] I want to, I want to pivot back to. Project management.

[00:27:38] So I promised at the top of the show that I'd play the grumpy devil's advocate here. So

[00:27:43] I'm going to let me, my grumpiness out a little bit. So, um, like project management process elements, like I'm a marketing ops guy.

[00:27:50] So like, I'm a fan of it, but just to play devil's advocate, like too often the trigger for me in my career for implementing. New project management [00:28:00] processes, whether it's lean or agile, it hasn't been to improve how do we work or how do we collaborate better? It's mainly been so leaders can get a report of who is doing what and

[00:28:15] they can see who's doing more work, who's doing less work. What are your thoughts here? Like how, how would you react if a CMO hired you to implement a new process or new lean methodology? And the goal for her him was basically just to be able to track task completions or just like, I don't

[00:28:34] see what my team is doing. Like who's doing what I want a project management tool at a new process.

[00:28:39] So I know who's doing what.

[00:28:42] Rutger: That that usually comes from people who have, um, were not as much leaders. They're micromanagers.

[00:28:49] That's the way it sounds like, right? This is micromanagement that you're doing. Um, no. So in, in these cases, I would always say that, look, Um, you have sort of [00:29:00] the current baseline and you also have sort of the growth that people are showing and we're trying to apply lean.

[00:29:06] It's, it's called, you know, one of the pillars is called people and, and we transfer it to, you know, enabling people to continuously, you know, improve. So it's not necessarily what their current rate KPI is, because if I'm going to be honest, I'm looking into your organization, I will probably see that your KPI is quite bad, but you're setting a certain target KPI and you're trying to progress your growth In, you know, coming closer and closer to the KPI, you know, in a couple of months times or a half year, depending on, you know, what the KPI is and where you currently are, you'll see that you've achieved it, and you'll be like, hey, what if we could actually go higher?

[00:29:41] And okay, then what would, what would require us to go higher? So every time it's, it's something that one has to deal with. You're improving the foundations, you're improving the process, you're improving the collaborations, you're improving, you know, your employees and how your employees function. This is a very big part of your organization and a fair [00:30:00] culture where people are like, Hey, all your KPIs down, uh, you know, you're on a pip and if you don't progress well, you're, you're, you're tossed off in, in two months and, and good luck.

[00:30:11] Um, that, that works in the U S it works a little harder in the Netherlands where, you know, you have sort of like a, uh, It's very hard to kick someone out unless you're doing a reorganization. So I know this is a us problem, not necessarily a European problem.

[00:30:22] Phil: Yeah.

[00:30:23] Rutger: Um, but that's the thing you're trying to continuously improve your organization processes.

[00:30:28] And if you only look at, you know, the one moment in time, which is now you won't, you'll miss, or you won't look at, okay, but what happened two months later, or what happened two months ago, if you don't look at that context. You don't see, Hey, which direction could we actually go? I mean, and even someone who isn't very good or isn't like the immediate star.

[00:30:49] I mean, you also have a lot of toxic stars in sales. I've seen a lot of those. Um, they ruin things for the rest of the team. So one person can deteriorate a team and [00:31:00] by removing them, you could actually, you know, uplift a team. And you would see things like that if you look at continuously improving and asking people, Hey, What do you need from us to, you know, get better or become better?

[00:31:11] How can we improve the process, the collaboration, the tools, you know, do we need massaged, chair massaged or whatever? What is it?

[00:31:21] Balancing Speed and Process in Fast-Paced Startups
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[00:31:21] Phil: Well, how do you think about like this idea of the balance between doing the work versus planning the work, especially in startups, like, which is like most of my experience, like we just need to get shit done, like. Nine out of 10 startups don't survive. Like we don't have the luxury to spend 12 months figuring out this new process to plan work like that.

[00:31:44] There's no time for daily scrums and Asana project boards and Gantt charts. Like we could have shipped three campaigns by the time the project manager found a convenient synchronous time to do a project kickoff. Like, how do you strike a balance between sticking to process [00:32:00] and just like rolling up your sleeves to get shit done in these like fast paced environments?

[00:32:05] Rutger: Well, it's as I say in RevOps, I did the HubSpot certification and, uh, there was this really nice quote, I think it was from Doug, um, he said, you can go fast. But you won't go far if you go in the wrong direction, right? You can have speed, but you won't necessarily have velocity. And if you're just focusing on constantly executing quickly without a process, I mean, you might end up solving the wrong solution or the wrong problem, or you might create inefficiencies down the road.

[00:32:37] Which is what we see in a, in a lot of startups, right? We've seen that through the growth that all costs that was really hip until 2022. No, companies just threw money at their go to market and they, they grew, you know, incredibly large, and now we look at them and we see, Hey, you're actually paying like four times, uh, uh, what you should for acquiring, you know, every single dollar you're, you're paying [00:33:00] four times as much, and that's from all these inefficiencies are the sort of built up over.

[00:33:06] over the years often. So there's a fine balance in between. No, uh, work in the process and getting shit done because, of course, they get shit done. Um, so I would definitely recommend to at least do a 15 minute check in, stand up, whatever you want to call it with your team. Talk about a how our targets.

[00:33:28] What are our blockers in getting those KPIs back up? And you only need 15 minutes. And in that, those 15 minutes, you can already get a lot of, you know, you can talk about your targets and goals, about the processes, what's going well, what's going wrong, um, where do I need help in sort of escalating or dealing with a certain blocker or a certain individual that that's harassing us

[00:33:49] or, you know, whatever it could be.

[00:33:52] That's constantly asking for more features because we're already have a backlog that is the length of, uh, a [00:34:00] very, very, very long, uh, receipt from, from target or, or, uh, Walmart, um, to sort of translate it to, to, to, to a us audience. No. And, um, like minimally have like a Kanban board for the bigger things so you can track, okay, how are things progressing?

[00:34:17] And if we see certain things sort of really stick around for a long time, like we know that they're blocked, we know that it's not optimized and we sort of check in and then sort of we do do a Kanban, okay, how can we improve that session? But you don't need to. Like, Like, force everything into a process.

[00:34:35] That's, that's what I saw in, in agile and it's crumb and it's safe. It's very forced. And I've seen one of those in action, like a safe transition. It was, it was, everyone was sort of stumped in trying to figure out, Hey, is this like, do we do it in this way? Do we do it in this way? And you've got constant conversations.

[00:34:54] It just slows down the entire organization. So in the, especially in startups, like, [00:35:00] like look at them. The leanest way of, you know, using tools and the methodology to get where you need to go, which is now improving it without sort of taking away all the time working, you know, in your core job, doing the deep work, you know, throwing those campaigns or getting those leads in.

[00:35:18] it's, it's a balance. I don't want to say it depends, but there's the balance. Yeah.

[00:35:22] Phil: no, I personally actually don't love the, we can go fast, but we can go far. If you, we, we can't go far for you go in the wrong direction.

[00:35:32] Like that, that adage, like it assumes that all processes and everything RevOps does, like results in determining. The right direction, like in

[00:35:40] the real world, it's just not true.

[00:35:43] Right.

[00:35:44] Like I get like alignment matters for sure. Like it, like that's the whole goal of like scrums and like, you know, sometimes like someone says, Oh, I'm like, I'm working on this and you had no idea. And you're also working on that. And then you can kind of align in, but like the fastest way to know if we're on [00:36:00] the right track in my startup experience is.

[00:36:02] To just ship and get feedback right away and fast. And I can't do that. If I'm stuck in like all of these scrum meetings that are just like theoretical and so political, and we're talking about like, what is someone's personal opinion about what the direction we should go? Like, can I just like go back to work and do actual shit?

[00:36:22] How to Recognize When Process Gets in the Way of Efficiency
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[00:36:22] Phil: But like, how do you balance that? This idea of like, when you kind of talked about this already, but like when process gets in the way of efficiency, like, how do you balance process for the sake of process? I've worked for some leaders in VPs that you, you kind of described already, who've like tried to implement lean or agile workflows and tools to much resistance.

[00:36:43] I mean, myself included, like biggest shit wasn't broken in the first place in tech, just added overhead and slowed people down. Like, how do you strike that balance?

[00:36:54] Rutger: So again, it might be from someone who is like, Oh yeah, I've been a black belt for every year [00:37:00] and every new organization I go into, I throw in my black belt and I ensure that everyone's lean focus and

[00:37:05] everyone will be happy. And, you know, a chain implementing something like lean or safe or, or agile It takes years.

[00:37:14] It's a cultural change. And if there's one thing I know from from digital strategy and working with large enterprises, as soon as you start to change processes and, you know, it gets worse by changing tools as well or changing people as well, it just Slugs down because it's like a cultural change that you're

[00:37:32] trying to enable.

[00:37:33] So you need to do change management and that is lengthy. Um, so again, you sort of start with, you know, smaller issues. You start small and as you go and you share the learnings that you've done. And if you, you, you, you show a team that's really good, you start with a team that is really willing and able or that sees the vision, [00:38:00] start with them, start small, share winning, share learnings across the entire organization and have them as your ambassador, sort of like, and then just roll it out as you go, not go like, like full a hundred percent in from the get go, because yeah, That does not work unless you've got an incredible lengthy cultural change and, and all kinds of workshops, or you've got a CEO that says, yeah, we have to do it tomorrow.

[00:38:26] So we're going to do it tomorrow. And if anyone who doesn't follow me, you know, there's a door. Yeah. You need to do this as. Um, you need to do this agile, basically, I'm calling it now. So if you want to do something like lean or agile, you need to do it agile. You need to iterate small and start small with small iterations and sort of see what works and what does work, what adds value, what detracts from the value.

[00:38:54] And then as you go, you can sort of like. You know, continue to dive deeper into, into this well of [00:39:00] information that is lean or that is agile or safe and sort of pick and choose what you feel, Hey, this is actually what we need right now. Let's try it, implement it and see if it works or not. That's at least my view, especially for smaller lean or smaller startups for sure.

[00:39:18] Phil: Yeah, no, it's very meta advice. Like if you want to try agile, be agile about implementing agile, but it makes a ton of

[00:39:27] sense because you know, there's like a shock factor to it.

[00:39:31] Maintaining Creative Freedom in a Process-Driven Environment
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[00:39:31] Phil: Like one of my personal gripes with process and agile specifically is that it often hinders flexibility and like suffocates creative freedom almost.

[00:39:41] Right. Like take a person who like me right now, like has very little to no meetings. On my calendar, I set my own hours. I build my own schedule. I'm able to be creative during my optimal flow states, but put me in a corporate environment with 15 daily scrum meetings, a sauna [00:40:00] task review meetings, project kickoffs, and having to manually update projects and give updates to a bunch of people all the time.

[00:40:06] Like. I get that often we work for businesses and we need accountability in a certain like shape, but how do we balance that with, without like suffocating flexibility and creative freedom?

[00:40:21] Rutger: Yeah, don't forget about having to be online on 10 different communication tools and then constantly have to

[00:40:26] respond to an email or a slack message,

[00:40:30] even within a certain amount of time, because otherwise people are like, you're not communicative, or, you know, I tried to get this across, you didn't read my email.

[00:40:37] Email chain of, of 10 emails. Um, yeah, I mean, companies need to realize that people require deep work time to get things done, you know, especially when you're in development, creative, strategic roles, you need to, you need to sort of be able to sort of just stare at a wall for like two hours and try and figure out, okay, what, what's the solution.

[00:40:58] I'm trying to grasp it without [00:41:00] someone picking you or calling you with, Hey, where, where's my TPS reports? You know, those kinds of things, they're needed. To get work done, um, you take it away from them and they won't, they will become less efficient. They won't be able to reach their KPIs and they won't be able to reach their goals.

[00:41:16] I mean, that's something that I hope, you know, you get in the, in those stand ups. You know, if I could get some less calls or if I could get some deep work time in my agenda, that would actually help me. And then you can sort of try and implement that. So, um, and the same goes for meetings, right? There are a slew of inefficient meetings that are way too long that people sort of start chatting the first 15 minutes or just catch

[00:41:38] up.

[00:41:39] That's, that's coffee talk, right? Get out of here. Um, with people present that have no opinion or no added value into the meeting, they're like, yeah, what am I even doing here? I can say one line that could have been a Slack message, basically.

[00:41:51] Um, or without any input. Um, you know, people should be prepared, so there should be an agenda present.

[00:41:58] They should only be the people that are [00:42:00] having some added value. Uh, and the goal of the meeting should be clearly stated at the beginning, right? In this meeting, we're trying to accomplish this, this, this. Then the meeting is a success. Uh, this is the agenda. Everyone has seen it before. I mean, everything that you needed to read beforehand, you've got it.

[00:42:14] So that people can go into the meeting and be like, you know, when they're talking about their KPIs or the dashboard, you know, like, Oh, what's this? What's what's does that number over there? Oh, I don't recognize this data. Now everyone's prepared and everyone has agreed beforehand that this is a dashboard that we're going to be discussing.

[00:42:30] You know, if you have any problems with it, email us beforehand. You get the agenda like at least a day or two beforehand, so you can sort of add it to agenda if you need it to be. And that's it. And yeah. How, how simple this is like, like a lot of things, how simple this is. It is so hard for people to do it and I have no idea why.

[00:42:48] Phil: Yeah It's so true. Yeah, it's it's it's easy to say and then like You know people do it for a little bit and then you go to the next meeting and Slowly erodes back to what it was [00:43:00] before. And yeah, I, I want to, you, you made a good transition there to like the back to the data component, like the measurement context of, of lean here.

[00:43:09] The Value of Leading Indicators with Context
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[00:43:09] Phil: Like at the top of the show, you mentioned web traffic and social media followers as examples of like the wrong things when measuring marketing. And even if we agree that like ultimately driving growth and revenue and. Like qualified leads is the main goal of marketing and sales. I think we can make an argument for leading and lagging indicators when it comes to KPIs that are worth monitoring.

[00:43:32] I know that you have a big focus on B2B context and revenue is a lagging indicator at the day. And like, it just doesn't happen right away. The fruits of. The marketing campaigns that we launched might not ripe for several months, even years, if you're in like the enterprise B2B space. So revenue can't be the only thing that we track and we measure marketing by.

[00:43:55] And so like immediate bumps and followers on social or spikes in traffic, like those are [00:44:00] leading indicators. They are like a bit fluffy for sure, but like they shouldn't be the only thing you track. But with the absence of being able to show like immediate revenue, like, isn't that kind of OK? Curious your thoughts there.

[00:44:13] Rutger: Mm-Hmm, . Now you're putting me at the spot here, Phil . No, I, um, I agree to a certain point that, um, yeah, you need those leading indicators to have sort of like your early idea of, Hey, is this a success or, or a less of success. But if you don't, like, if you don't do a cohort study. Of figuring out a these leading, you know, we're trying a couple of different campaigns and we're trying to follow them across the entire, you know, the revenue chain to figure out, Hey, how loyal are these customers next year or not, why has changed?

[00:44:49] And then based on that, you can sort of, you know, go back and sort of, Hey, these leading indicators would actually indicative of

[00:44:56] something later down the line, you want to try and find causation in [00:45:00] that, not just like a coincidental correlation, um, as, as you can. Sometimes fine in these situations.

[00:45:09] Do I have another opinion on this? I'm really trying hard to figure out. So, so one thing that I, I have noticed is that leading indicators can sometimes be really misused by departments in saying that, Hey, how well have we been doing this year, for instance, and then their department lead might now move into another organization or another department next year over, and you'll see, you know, in the end, but all those leading indicators were very well.

[00:45:38] What happened to the. Results, the revenue, the people, and you know, it might've just been a way to do something short term. That's really effective in the long term for a detrimental to the brand, for instance, right? You can do a very big campaign blast yet. Hey, we've got so many people coming in, at least to the website [00:46:00] from a campaign.

[00:46:01] And then one year later, uh, you'll see that your open rate or that you, you're just getting thrown into the spam box folder because you've been doing shotgun marketing. The previous couple of months, so yes, leading indicators are okay, but with context with the longer context and still, you know, especially with with the amount of spam coming up right now from AI and Gen AI, um, like a good customer experience is, is I think the best indicator.

[00:46:35] If you can get, um, be branded for that, you do so well in your customer experience that your product is, you know, good. Of course you need to have a good product, but that your marketing sales and customer success are on point, which for a lot of companies is not

[00:46:48] the case, you know, especially customer success and adoption of tools.

[00:46:53] If you don't do those things well across the entire journey, then people will be like, [00:47:00] yeah, Salesforce is very good at the sales side. But then actually following up, you're figuring out what the hell am I actually paying for? What, what, what is this mess or, and I'm saying Salesforce, but there are many of our other

[00:47:12] companies that have the exact same situation that they're incredibly sales oriented.

[00:47:17] But as soon as things get, you know, shifted over or tossed over to customer success, it's sort of just all falls apart because for a lot of enterprise, a lot of scale ups, especially customer success is not a. Um, a very interesting or very, very revenue driving team is seen as a Cosmos. It's, you know, there's a lot to unpack there as well, uh, in terms of, you know, that some of them should just partner with consultancies or agencies to sort of pick that up.

[00:47:47] But that's, that's a whole different podcast that we could go into there. Phil is that direction you want to take? Or are we going down that rabbit hole or should we sort of pivot back

[00:47:56] Phil: Uh, yeah. You said something really interesting at the top of [00:48:00] your answer, which was around causation.

[00:48:02] Rethinking Marketing Attribution and Causation
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[00:48:02] Phil: And I wanna take a pit stop there because, um. Like obviously reporting on bad metrics seems to be a main theme and you're kind of a explanation for lean. Um, but I want to take a short stop with attribution because, uh, I think the question of how do we measure marketing's impact is very important and central to like the whole theme of lean methodology. Um, I've had conversations with different folks on the show recently about multi touch attribution versus. Incrementality and true causation. And one of the things that resonates the most with me with some of those conversations is that MTA multi touch distribution does nothing to tell you what truly cause a conversion or revenue MTA simply shows you, and it's really good at that, the visible path to conversion. But not the cause of conversion. Do you agree that MTA is still useful, but most of us are just using it wrong. And, and what's your recommended approach for measuring what [00:49:00] marketing campaigns truly cause caused an increase in revenue?

[00:49:05] Rutger: I would. I mean, for every organization or marketing department that I enter, I would ask, Hey, what is your self reported? What, what do clients self report in terms of, Hey, this campaign conferred me, or this is how I learned about your organization. You'll find it. It's not Google search or Google. I mean, it went to Google because, you know, they were looking for your, you know, your Company name where they were looking for your, your niche.

[00:49:28] Um, but you'll see that a lot of that happens in what they call, what they call dark social. Um, you know, the, what we're doing in, in the different communities, you know, the peer to peer networks, um, we're talking with colleagues, we're talking with ex colleagues, we're talking with people in our network.

[00:49:45] We're asking, hey, you know, what tools should I use for X and Y? And why is it better than the other one? You know, that's, that's very big on their marketing. Um, so in terms of, um, the [00:50:00] attribution and the causation, I would take a bit with a, with a, well, not a pinch of salt. I would take it with a bucket of salt because.

[00:50:08] I would rather listen to what the customer has to say directly that they remember us from then sort of try and figure out, Hey, which one actually along the customer journey was as optimized as possible. I mean, I'm very much in favor of doing like. Customer journey orchestration across your website and sort of figure out, I know there's this company.

[00:50:31] It was really good. It was called, um, thunderhead. Uh, they had this, this commercial. I'll never forget it was a Viking bear with incredibly big nipples. it, Watch the video. Watch it. It's it blew me away like 10 years ago. I was like, what the hell is this? But they did very well in the marketing. I feel so they would give they would give salespeople a teat to suck on sort of to get their information that that was sort of the joke of it.

[00:50:58] But what they [00:51:00] what they showed was on your website. Where do customers sort of drop off? Where do they go? What's their journey across your content? And that I feel is interesting. So to figure out, Hey, what for our specific customers, you know, what, what different type of segments do we get and what type of content are they willing to consume or consuming over a longer period of time?

[00:51:21] There's a concept that I'm really loving, which is called, um, the marketing waiting room by, by Justy. And, um, what she basically shows is, you know, we know that. Only three to 5 percent of customers are in market to buy today. All the others, you know, they might not be problem where they might not be, you know, uh, pain where they might not be in market right now, or they have, you know, 10 other different priorities, but by ensuring that they are in this, this marketing room, we're constantly sort of feeding them like interesting tidbits about your product, about your solution, about the pain, you know, top of funnel, bottom of funnel, you know, the entire.[00:52:00]

[00:52:00] Uh, funnel and the way that customers sort of progress through that, you can sort of figure out, Hey, this one is actually, you know, progressing towards someone who's incredibly interesting because their consumption rate has increased those types of analytics. I'm very much in favor and those ones I'm getting very enthusiastic about.

[00:52:21] But the regular attribution of, yeah, did they come through social or LinkedIn or, or whatnot? Doubtful. Doubtful it is that good. I would, like I mentioned, I would much rather listen to what a customer, consumer, whatever it is, say themselves about, hey, this is what actually converted me to go for your product or go for your service or whatnot.

[00:52:47] Phil: Yeah, I feel like we could follow up with a whole other podcast on, uh, on the validity of, of self reported attribution and how

[00:52:54] Rutger: free in a couple

[00:52:55] Phil: have, you know, I got two last questions for you, uh, [00:53:00] Ruger. Um, I think you'd agree that, so last thing on, on this topic of, of data tracking and attribution, like most companies track all of the things.

[00:53:09] And well, at least tech companies, like maybe not the 90 percent of other industries where, which we talked about earlier, but.

[00:53:16] The Importance of Data Minimization in a Lean Strategy
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[00:53:16] Phil: In tech, like most of these companies track all the things and they throw it in like a data warehouse or CDP, regardless of like existing or future needs for that data. And I think lean concepts applies beautifully to this trend of data minimization that I've chatted with a couple of folks on the show, like thinking mindfully about what data you really need and only tracking What advice do you have for teams for balancing Like only tracking what they really need today, but also thinking about like five, 10 years down the line and the data they might need in the future.

[00:53:49] Rutger: So five to 10 years is quite long,

[00:53:52] Phil: Yeah.

[00:53:53] Rutger: know that we can sort of, we overestimate what happens within, sorry, we underestimate what happens in within two year. And

[00:53:58] we overestimate what happens within five to [00:54:00] 10, um, through all kinds of reasons, culture, often being the biggest ones that people are slow to adopt, whatever it is.

[00:54:06] So in terms of, you know, being lean about your data, um, I completely agree that you have to be mindful and strategic about, Hey, what, What are we trying to accomplish? What are we trying to accomplish as an organization? What's the strategy for the next coming five years? And you know, what will the market look like the next five years?

[00:54:25] What are we expecting of inside and outside forces? And then using that as a guide path. Okay. So what kind of data should we collect to, you know, engage on that or pivot on that? Um, and one thing that we need to, one thing that we really need to consider is that. In five to 10 years, we not might not be talking to people anymore.

[00:54:50] We'll be talking to their personal agents. We'll be talking to their, whatever it is that everyone will have like this little AI chat bot in their [00:55:00] phone, uh, on their emails, on their WhatsApp, on their LinkedIn, giving them a personal feed to ensure that no, you're not. Content tired from all those spammy folders, which we're, we're getting, you know, every single year.

[00:55:15] I mean, my inbox is filled with newsletters, some of them I love to read. And the other side I'm like, yeah, I probably read it, but I'm, I'm forgetting it. And then there's, there's 10 other ones that are sort of picking my attention. So we'll see these agents in everyone's little pocket. And, you know, as a brand, you would need to talk to that agent.

[00:55:34] And you need to somehow prove to the agent that you're important enough that you're, um, you know, you, you connect with the owner on a intimate level. Uh, you know, them extremely well. And that's not just a personalization of, Hey, I know you work at X and Y and I know you're this old and you know, the shitty personalization that people are getting and they're saying, Hey, that's personalization, right?

[00:55:58] No, it's that you're [00:56:00] really, It goes deeper than that. You know, I know your family values or I know your values in the organization where I know your personal values. I know that, you know, okay, it's worth your cats. He loves lean. So I've got it on a very nice pitch, a story about lean and how it's really shitty.

[00:56:13] So read it and learn how it's how you can improve your consultancy or whatnot. You know, something that personalized. And then, you know, to convince the AI to get through that sort of firewall you have.

[00:56:25] Everyone will have a little content firewall.

[00:56:28] Maybe that's the way to call it, a content firewall in your pocket.

[00:56:31] Um, I'll pitch it. I'll post a LinkedIn post about it today.

[00:56:36] Phil: Nice.

[00:56:37] Rutger: No, and, and that's the thing. Um, and beyond that, I think that for organization to get shortlisted, you will need to show that you are trustworthy, that you are a fun and interesting brand to follow. There are not many newsletters I read, but there's one individual called Lessa and her newsletter is a mess and [00:57:00] it's a funny mess and I read it because it's a funny mess.

[00:57:02] Nothing else, not because it might be educational, because I like it as a funny mess. That's why I read it. She has cows in her newsletter.

[00:57:11] Phil: Very cool. Yeah. No, that's a really interesting topic. Like, uh, AI content, firewall in your pocket and having to chat with AI agents. Um, yeah, there's, there's maybe like a couple other podcast episodes to do on this record. This has been super fun. Um, yeah. Uh, one last question for you. Uh, we asked this question, everyone on the show,

[00:57:30] Finding Balance Through People and Personal Brand
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[00:57:30] Phil: you're a business owner.

[00:57:32] You're also a GTM operations consultant. You're also a dad of two kids and you're a big green egg master chef as well. As we chatted before we hit record. Um, how do you remain happy and successful in your career? Like, how do you find balance between all these things you're working on while staying happy?

[00:57:51] Rutger: Yeah, so for me, I've learned that my happiness comes from working with the right people, the people that I vibe with, [00:58:00] so to say. And early on, I've worked under a couple of bad managers, and it really drained my energy. Um, so now, especially thanks to networking, I found a lot of people that I truly enjoy collaborating with, where there's a back and forth of value exchange.

[00:58:18] And that's made all the difference, at least for me. Um, as well, you know, working for myself, it gives me a lot of flexibility, you know, to spend time with my daughters, do barbecuing, going on, you know, take my weekend on a Wednesday instead of like Saturday and Sunday. Um, but I know it's. You know, being an entrepreneur is not for everyone.

[00:58:35] Some of them are trapped by choice or, you know, by accident in working into an enterprise, right? So, um, I would advise everyone to network more and more. You know, I only started last year to really do it. And that has given me a job, a lot of interesting friends, and it gave me the courage to start my own company.

[00:58:56] And this podcast. So I think that [00:59:00] especially with, you know, Gen AI people need to start investing in their personal brand as well for authenticity and trust to rise above that Gen AI generated crap and sort of leverage their brand in such a way that, you know, If you want to start for yourself and if you want to find, you know, your, your crew, your, your people that you fly with, you know, it helps to have a personal brand to be outspoken about, you know, who you are, what you like, what you dislike, um, and leverage that to your success.

[00:59:30] That is what I would. Tell everyone to sort of be happy investing yourself in your network because it's way more impactful than, than you, you currently think it will be,

[00:59:44] even if it's on LinkedIn.

[00:59:47] Phil: Love. that answer. I'll, uh, I'll look forward to the, the post about, uh, AI firewall for, for content. Um,

[00:59:54] Rego, it's been super fun conversation. Really appreciate you, uh, sharing some of your insights. Um, I feel [01:00:00] like you have at least given me optimism about lean methodologies and, and, and

[01:00:04] rethinking some of my, my grumpy, uh, point of views on, on process there.

[01:00:09] But, uh, thank you

[01:00:10] for, uh, humoring us today. It's been super fun.

[01:00:13] Rutger: It was super fun. Phil, it was really, really a fun podcast to do.

[01:00:17] Phil: Cheers, man.