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A podcast from the Digital Futures Institute at Teachers College, Columbia University about play and pop culture. Professors Haeny Yoon and Nathan Holbert talk with educators, parents and kids about how they play in their work and their lives, and why play and pop culture matter.
The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the speaker to whom they are attributed. They do not necessarily reflect the views of the faculty, administration, staff or Trustees either of Teachers College or of Columbia University.
Nathan Holbert:
Welcome to Pop and Play, the podcast all about play and pop culture and how it shapes our lives. I'm Nathan Holbert and with me as always is Haeny, College of Glamour, Level four Bard, Yoon.
Haeny Yoon:
God, I only understand that because of all this role playing that you forced me to do. Okay. Nerd joke. I'm Haeny Yoon and today we've got another play date, a pop and play segment of Pop and Play where we invite you to play along with us. We'll talk to a guest or guest who are experts in this play and then together we'll reflect on why this particular form of play matters.
Nathan Holbert:
Ah, but Haeny is in luck because we are not going to be making Haeny role play this episode. Though, if you want to see Haeny do some role playing, you got to go back, check out season four. I believe you role played a half Jawa. Is that correct?
Haeny Yoon:
Checking me out role playing is quite the overstatement of the century.
Nathan Holbert:
It was brilliant. The height, the height of role playing. But Haeny's in luck because we're not going to make her do any more role playing. We're going to be instead talking to two brilliant teachers about their role playing and specifically the way they role play with the kids in their class. So today we're going to be joined by Carly and Mike, two second grade teachers from Brooklyn. Mike's an avid role player, big fan of Spider-Man, me too, Mike, Dungeons and Dragons. And Carly practices art in her free time and has a real penchant for acting, as you will see. Together they write, create, and act out stories with kids in their class.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. And so I had actually the unique privilege of being able to see this in action. So what I appreciate is they took their individual passions like role playing and storytelling, D&D, art making, and acting and took it to their classrooms into a cool story session where the kids are rolling dice. They're acting out, coming up with different kinds of storylines and playing alongside Carly and Mike. I think it's really cool. So whoever thinks that cool things don't happen in school is actually wrong.
Nathan Holbert:
Let's hear some role playing.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay. All right. To continue in our most exciting journey, we want to welcome Mike.
Michael DiGregorio:
Hello.
Haeny Yoon:
And Carly.
Carly Haber:
Hey.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. We're very excited to have a chance to talk to you today because I was actually so impressed and flabbergasted by what was happening in your classroom. As I think we've mentioned, they're classroom teachers, right?
Nathan Holbert:
Yep.
Haeny Yoon:
But before we get into that, we always like to kind of start and warm up by playing a game with our guest again to this.
Nathan Holbert:
We'll see how this goes.
Haeny Yoon:
We are all in for a treat and a surprise.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. Me included here, even though I made it. Okay. So you guys are second grade teachers.
Michael DiGregorio:
Correct.
Carly Haber:
Yes.
Nathan Holbert:
And what I'm going to do for you today is I want you to be second grade teachers.
Carly Haber:
Sure.
Michael DiGregorio:
Great.
Nathan Holbert:
And so far, easy, right? I'm going to give you a scenario and I'm going to read a couple possible options for how you can deal with that scenario. Think of this like a role playing. So you're role playing as a second grade teacher. I'm going to give you a scenario and you're going to sort of story tell your way out of it. But I'm going to give you two solutions, like two ways out of it. So you're not going to have to come up with that on your own.
Carly Haber:
Oh, okay.
Michael DiGregorio:
That's nice.
Haeny Yoon:
I know. Their job is done. It's so late. We're actually filming this at like 6:30 at night. They've already had a full day.
Nathan Holbert:
Work harder.
Haeny Yoon:
No.
Nathan Holbert:
So I'll give you two scenarios. One will be an easy solution. And one will be a hard solution. And you can decide whichever one you want to take and you should discuss it and kind of think through what you want to do. And then depending upon which one you choose, you'll roll a dice and there will be kind of a cost, how high you have to roll to succeed.
Michael DiGregorio:
Cool.
Nathan Holbert:
And then they'll talk about what happens.
Carly Haber:
Sure.
Nathan Holbert:
Okay? Before we begin though, I want you to choose one proficiency that you have together here. Now proficiency is like a skill that you're particularly good at. Okay? And this may come in handy, it may not come in handy for one of the scenarios. We'll see. You have four choices. You can choose animal handling, persuasion, arcana or perception. Which of those four would you like to choose?
Carly Haber:
What's arcana?
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. What is that?
Nathan Holbert:
You have a lot of knowledge about mysteries of the universe and magic and things. Yeah.
Carly Haber:
I mean, you are the Dungeon and Dragons player. What would you choose?
Michael DiGregorio:
Well, we should both have it, right?
Carly Haber:
Maybe persuasion?
Michael DiGregorio:
Okay. Yeah, persuasion.
Nathan Holbert:
That's one of the options. Persuasion? Okay. So that'll be your proficiency. We'll see if it comes up. Okay. Are you ready?
Carly Haber:
Yes.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, sure.
Nathan Holbert:
Actually, let me give you a dice here. So here's a dice that you-
Michael DiGregorio:
Oh, persuasion's great with the kids.
Nathan Holbert:
... can roll it. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. It might come in handy.
Carly Haber:
Wait, we should do that.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah.
Nathan Holbert:
Okay. Here we go. So your students come in from recess and they're very excited. They're very chatty. I'm sure you've had that experience before.
Michael DiGregorio:
Classic.
Carly Haber:
Every day.
Nathan Holbert:
They tell you that they found a new class pet outside on the playground.
Michael DiGregorio:
Okay.
Nathan Holbert:
They lift this pet to you enthusiastically and you see that they are holding a baby dragon.
Carly Haber:
Ooh.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay.
Carly Haber:
This kind of matches.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, we kind of talked about it.
Nathan Holbert:
This has happened to you before? Okay. So you have two choices for how to deal with this.
Carly Haber:
Sure.
Nathan Holbert:
You have an easy option and a hard option. The easy option, "Hooray for dragons. Hooray for learning responsibility. We have a new class pet. So what if some seven-year-old occasionally goes home with cinched eyebrows? Dragons rock." That's the easy option. The hard option, "A dragon here in Mamdami Elementary? But what if it's original owner comes looking for it? Or what if it grows up? No, this is just not going to work out." I'm sure if you explain clearly and reasonably the difficulty of raising a dragon as a pet, the children will understand. Which would you choose to do? Now, keep in mind, the easy option will be a lower dice roll to succeed.
Michael DiGregorio:
Okay.
Nathan Holbert:
You might think also about your proficiency, whether that might come in handy here, which was persuasion, if I recall.
Carly Haber:
Honestly, my immediate instinct is to say the second option.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. I mean, yeah, in this realistic scenario.
Carly Haber:
A dragon.
Michael DiGregorio:
The dragon would be pretty dangerous, I think.
Carly Haber:
I think that the kids wouldn't know how to handle the dragon. The dragon would singe their eyebrows, like you said.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. Personally, it'd be fun if we kept the dragon ,but that's-
Haeny Yoon:
But then, can you train your dragon?
Michael DiGregorio:
Right. Yeah. A big theme of last year was How to Train Your Dragon. Well, not a theme, but we just talked about that.
Haeny Yoon:
So maybe they're already proficient.
Carly Haber:
Maybe.
Michael DiGregorio:
But I feel like we have the persuasion on our side. Going for the harder option seems like the play.
Carly Haber:
I agree.
Nathan Holbert:
Very, very clever. You do have persuasion, so that's going to help you out here. So you're going to need to roll the dice and you need to get higher than a 15, but whatever you roll, you can add five to it.
Michael DiGregorio:
Oh, okay.
Haeny Yoon:
Because you have persuasion.
Nathan Holbert:
Because you have persuasion.
Michael DiGregorio:
Awesome.
Carly Haber:
Oh.
Nathan Holbert:
So roll the dice and if you get basically 10 and above, you succeed. What'd you get?
Michael DiGregorio:
We got eight.
Carly Haber:
Plus five.
Michael DiGregorio:
Plus the five. Quick second grade math.
Carly Haber:
13.
Nathan Holbert:
Oh, no. So you have failed the role.
Carly Haber:
Oh, man.
Nathan Holbert:
But you're going to try. So here's what happened. Right as you place your first chart on the classroom easel, Billy loudly farts. The class erupts in laughter. Valentina screams, "Dragon!" And the class cheers. You begin to ask for calm right as you notice the dragon has eaten the class gerbil.
Carly Haber:
Uh-oh.
Michael DiGregorio:
Poor guy.
Nathan Holbert:
Poor gerbil. Had it coming. Okay, so that's the first scenario. I'm sorry to say you didn't fully succeed, but the story goes on. The story continues where we left off. So despite your best efforts, the dragon is a bit restless. That gerbil didn't quite sit well on its tummy. And the students are understandably concerned about the health and the wellbeing of their new pet. You guys have taught these children well. They really care about others. They care about animals. And they believe that naming the dragon might actually help it feel more welcome and feel better as it's in the classroom.
Michael DiGregorio:
Oh, yeah.
Carly Haber:
I like that idea.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah.
Nathan Holbert:
You guys got great kids. Good job. Great job. So you have two options here. You have, of course, again, an easy and a hard. Okay? So the easy option. Smog. That's a dragon's name, right?
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah.
Nathan Holbert:
Is it pronounced smog as in the pollution or is it Smaug as in Benedict Cumberbatch?
That's the easy option. The hard option, you give the children a choice. They can name the dragon, Bahamut, Quetzalcoatl, Glowering, or any name of their own choosing.
Michael DiGregorio:
Glowering is a cool name.
Carly Haber:
There you go.
Michael DiGregorio:
Well, but yeah, I don't want to do too hard in a row, but giving them choice would be cool. Or giving them the-
Carly Haber:
But I think if they heard you say that, they would probably-
Michael DiGregorio:
I'd think that internally. That's a thought.
Haeny Yoon:
You wouldn't divulge your preferences?
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. That's true. Whatever we'd say, they would just name it.
Nathan Holbert:
You would give them the three options, but you would say that one really excited.
Michael DiGregorio:
Really, yeah.
Nathan Holbert:
"Glowering."
Carly Haber:
Okay, so let's let them choose.
Michael DiGregorio:
Okay, cool.
Nathan Holbert:
Let them choose. Okay. So I mean, you don't have a proficiency for this one, but roll the dice and see if we can get above a 15.
Carly Haber:
So maybe 15. Okay.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, 15 or above. Oh, 13.
Nathan Holbert:
Again.
Michael DiGregorio:
13.
Carly Haber:
Fail.
Michael DiGregorio:
It's a very unlucky number.
Nathan Holbert:
Too short again. Should we let them roll a second time? Maybe like a mulligan here?
Haeny Yoon:
Look, you can do whatever you want. This is your game.
Nathan Holbert:
Let's let you roll a second time. Give it another shot here.
Haeny Yoon:
What would you do in class?
Michael DiGregorio:
I'd probably give them inspiration to roll again if they had a good idea, but...
Nathan Holbert:
Oh, right, right. Okay. Inspiration to roll again. Great.
Carly Haber:
Oh, no.
Michael DiGregorio:
Our numbers are eight and 13.
Nathan Holbert:
Not inspired at all. Uninspired.
Haeny Yoon:
I'm looking at the sheet and you made them roll again because you want to say poopy pants.
Nathan Holbert:
You spoiling the... If you looked close enough, you would notice something here.
Haeny Yoon:
Oh, both of them. Go ahead.
Nathan Holbert:
The children thank you for trusting them with this awesome responsibility. To name any being, let alone a dragon is to bestow hopes, histories, possibilities. While a name is not destiny, your second-graders acknowledge it can be for the named either a path or an obstacle, a yoke or liberation. Heads solemnly bowed, they bestow upon the dragon the name Burn Breath McPoopy Pants.
Carly Haber:
That is so accurate.
Nathan Holbert:
And just to make you feel a little bit better, that was the same ending no matter what. On that particular chance.
Carly Haber:
Anywhere we did that.
Nathan Holbert:
Because second-graders are going to do that no matter what you...
Carly Haber:
Yes, they will.
Haeny Yoon:
That's what happened. I see it now. Okay.
Nathan Holbert:
Well, excellent work. I'm really excited about these kids and their new friend.
Michael DiGregorio:
Thank you. Thank you.
Nathan Holbert:
You did a great job.
Carly Haber:
And you have to say the full name every time.
Nathan Holbert:
Of course. Yes, Burn Breath McPoopy Pants.
Haeny Yoon:
There's no nicknames here..
Carly Haber:
Yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay.
Michael DiGregorio:
That's cool.
Carly Haber:
That was fun.
Haeny Yoon:
Well done.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
Well done, everybody.
Carly Haber:
We'll take some of those ideas for our...
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, seriously.
Haeny Yoon:
I feel like I actually had a flashback of being in Mike and Carly's classroom because this is basically exactly what happened, except we didn't have any cheaters.
Carly Haber:
Actually, you're right. They were being super honest when you were in the classroom about what numbers they were.
Haeny Yoon:
Some of them were.
Carly Haber:
Yeah, you're right. I saw some of them hiding their-
Haeny Yoon:
There were some cheaters. There was also not... I mean, 80% of the class could not have gotten a higher roll than Mike.
Michael DiGregorio:
Oh my, gosh. Every role.
Haeny Yoon:
There's no chance.
Nathan Holbert:
He's a good roller.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. So I'm like, how is that even possible, four out of the five times? Yes. Okay. All right. So thank you so much for playing that game.
Carly Haber:
Oh, my god, that was fun.
Michael DiGregorio:
Thank you. It was a lot of fun.
Haeny Yoon:
We're going to start... I guess we should start here. So we decided to come and talk together about stories and just the idea of storytelling. And so I wanted to have us start off with just when did you think you started appreciating stories and what do you think was the mode to do that? There's some people that really got into it as a kid because their moms read them bedtime stories. Some people didn't really get into it until they started playing video games that have really rich stories. Some people didn't get into it until they got to watch a really awesome reality television show. It tells a really great story. So what do you recall, a time when you appreciated stories and what was the mode you think that got you into it?
Michael DiGregorio:
It's a good question because... Well, you mentioned video games and that was definitely my thing when I was little and still is. I still play video games. Well, it's funny because when I was like... I must have been two or three or very young. My grandpa had a Nintendo 64, which was an old Nintendo system, which you probably know.
Haeny Yoon:
I had Nintendo 64. Is that grandpa age?
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, that was the weird thing because I mean, I don't know many people's grandparents who had video games to begin with, but it was cool that he had one, so I would always go over and play. And he loved The Legend of Zelda, which is an adventure fantasy series, but I was too little to play it. So there's these things called strategy guides where they basically tell you how to play the game and we would just turn it page by page. And that was like telling a story in a sense because it's all about solving puzzles and going on the next part of your adventure. It was really cool. And I mean, I don't play with strategy guides anymore because I've grown, but it was-
Haeny Yoon:
I hope so.
Nathan Holbert:
The strategy guide users out there.
Carly Haber:
What did you say?
Michael DiGregorio:
But it was a really cool way to experience a story like a video game in a way that I couldn't access as a kid. And I was reading too and playing it. So yeah, it was probably my earliest from memory experiences.
Carly Haber:
Yeah. I never played those games. I was never allowed to play those games.
Haeny Yoon:
How come?
Carly Haber:
My parents were very strict. But I did go to summer camp and I have a really distinct memory of this guy that used to come every day and he would just have a blank sheet of paper and he would just come with a black marker and that's it. And he would just tell a story and draw the story as he went.
Nathan Holbert:
Wow.
Carly Haber:
And that's kind of how we started playing in our classroom because I told Mike about that experience that I had had and I was like, "Is there a way we can do that with the kids?" And I started trying to draw his stories as he narrated.
Nathan Holbert:
That's what you do.
Carly Haber:
Could not keep up. Eventually it evolved into the Dungeon and Dragons.
Haeny Yoon:
Oh, wait, so you guys started doing that when you were trying to draw his stories?
Carly Haber:
I was trying to draw. It did not work. Well, you saw me try and draw that cave in real time. The cave that ended up looking like a big turd.
Michael DiGregorio:
You already passed, though. I would look up from doing the story and then you'd have a map done and a script of the story. I'm like, which is crazy.
Carly Haber:
Well yeah, so I couldn't keep up with drawing his stories because they're so elaborate and the kids' ideas are so imaginative. So I started typing them up as he went. And so we actually have a written up chapters of our stories that we create with the kids.
Haeny Yoon:
Wow, that's awesome. I love that. What about you?
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. What about me? What's the question?
Haeny Yoon:
Storytelling. When did you start saving stories? I feel like you're also a video game guy. I feel like you have-
Nathan Holbert:
Oh, yeah. I mean, when you mentioned the N-64 and how young you were when you were introduced to it, I immediately shriveled up into a-
Haeny Yoon:
What? A grandpa mode?
Nathan Holbert:
Just blew me away, how old I am.
Yeah, I mean, I always liked video games. I also always liked movies whenever I was a kid. I mean, we would watch with my family, all sorts of movies. Yeah, I don't know if I can pinpoint an exact one. I do distinctly remember playing the original Legend of Zelda. Again, a bit older than N65. And it was very like... Because it's non-linear and you kind of have to tell yourself a story while you're playing. It's not all there for you. But you didn't play many video games, you weren't allowed. What kinds of things did draw you into storytelling when you were younger?
Carly Haber:
As a kid, I really struggled with literacy. I think I didn't really find my love for it until I started teaching, really. And being able to interact with the kids and hear their imagination, it really sparked mine, I feel like, of being with the kids and seeing just how far they can go with the creativity and the weird ideas that they come up with, it makes us more creative.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
I mean, I think you raised a really good point about how I think for a long time we're accustomed to the idea of stories with books and stories with like reading. And so if you didn't like reading, you didn't really appreciate stories. But I think about, Mike, you brought up video games and how I have the complexity of video games these days and the stories that it actually tells. I remember my husband Neil was telling me how he played Last of Us and then he started crying because it was so moving and then we watched the HBO version of Last of Us and I was like, "Oh my God." So I just feel like the medium of stories isn't just about interacting with a book, right? It's interacting with people, like you said, Carly, or interacting with a television show, a video game, or the platform for stories is so wide.
Carly Haber:
Also just having that narrative agency, that sparks creativity too, you have those choices to make.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. So maybe that's a good way to like... Can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing with the students in your classrooms?
Audio:
Okay. It seems like our general plan is to try and just fight the dragon now. Do you guys agree to that?
Yes.
Okay. There's a couple different plans, but let's see how successful that is. You see, I mean, 20 is the best. 19's really good. So all the things you guys just said happen all at once.
Nathan Holbert:
So you're doing some role playing games with kids. When did you bring this in? You mentioned that you had this idea about the drawing.
Carly Haber:
Yeah. Well, so I was a student in one of Haeny's classes. We talk a lot about art and involving pop culture. And so I was just trying to figure out how we can incorporate storytelling in a creative way. Mike's an incredible artist and so-
Michael DiGregorio:
Oh, thank you.
Carly Haber:
Oh yeah, he wrote a children's book-
Haeny Yoon:
What?
Carly Haber:
... and he drew all the pictures.
Nathan Holbert:
Wow.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, my friend wrote it and I illustrated it.
Haeny Yoon:
What? Sidetrack.
Nathan Holbert:
If you go to our Patreon...
Carly Haber:
But I just wanted to incorporate his creativity and the kids' imagination and it kind of just happened.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, it's funny. I don't remember. It was just one... Every Friday it's called Fun Friday. So we have like Choice Time where the kids get to play with different games and lately they've been going... They've been loving the dice, which has been really fun. And One Fun Friday, you have been reading the Magic Treehouse series with the kids. It's just like a continual chapter book. We were doing books in a series and I don't know. I think they kept getting really into the store and you would do these big group things, like when the tree house would shake and transport them somewhere, the kids would get really into it. And I forget, we call it like shared story because they don't really know what Dungeons and Dragons is. And it's like, "It's a story we share together, so it's a shared story." And it was during, it was like Halloween time. So we came up with this, you're in a haunted house and you have to rescue your friend.
Carly Haber:
Yeah, what did you say? It was inspired by the SML skit?
Michael DiGregorio:
Do you guys know the David S. Pumpkins?
Nathan Holbert:
Yes. I was wondering if that's what you-
Michael DiGregorio:
Yes. So it was very tangentially related. I thought the idea of like, oh, you go up every floor, something new and scary, but you know, obviously no Tom Hanks involved. I think one year we could put him in the story. The kids don't know Tom Hanks.
Carly Haber:
They don't know how.
Michael DiGregorio:
Oh, they know Woody, but... Yeah, and it was that and they had to rescue one of the friends in class and Carly was the villain in the story. So she was a vampire that was controlling all the monsters.
Carly Haber:
Yeah. The kids love it and I'm acting it out on the rug and they're screaming and running away from me. It's a whole thing.
Michael DiGregorio:
It's awesome.
Carly Haber:
Yeah. It's fun. We love doing it.
Haeny Yoon:
You seem to like playing the villain.
Carly Haber:
I love it.
Haeny Yoon:
Is that your favorite role?
Carly Haber:
I get up on the tables. I don't know. It's just fun to get excited about learning. Anytime they're excited, I get excited.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah.
Carly Haber:
It's so cliche, but it's true.
Haeny Yoon:
That's so great. So Mike, do you play Dungeons and Dragons? Are you a role playing kind of guy?
Michael DiGregorio:
I would love to, but I can't convince my friends to do it. So I played once with my wife and my friend and they were kind of into it, but I listened to a lot of these like Dungeons and Dragons podcasts and so it was like, "Oh great, I could just do this with the kids and Carly and just force them to play instead." So yeah, the challenge has been running a campaign with 26 active players at once.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.
Carly Haber:
So at first when we started, they didn't have their own dye. So it was just that one massive dye that you-
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. I bought a giant T20 that we put under a camera and we tell the kids, "If we roll a high number, then your idea works." And they get so excited and they'd start cheering and stuff. And if you roll a low number, your idea doesn't work just like what happened to us earlier.
Nathan Holbert:
Multiple times, all that.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. The kids have had pretty good luck where they will say something kind of crazy and they'll roll like a 19 it's like, "All right, we have to do this now."
Carly Haber:
What was it like Avia came up with some idea with hot sauce?
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, that was really fun.
Haeny Yoon:
I love hot sauce.
Carly Haber:
What was your idea?
Michael DiGregorio:
They were fighting a dragon, so a hoard of gold. I mean, that's like a classic. And their friend was trapped inside the dragon's stomach. So we'll have them vote on options. We'll have like three or four kids share like, what should we do with the dragon? Should we fight? Or they'll say like, "We should fight it." They befriended a Yeti in that story, so, "We should have the Yeti help us," which is a good idea too. But then one kid in our class said, "We should give the dragon hot sauce so he throws up Diani," or our student.
Haeny Yoon:
That is such a great idea.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. And I was like, "That's really cool." So now I have to figure out how do I work hot sauce into the story. We rolled the 19 on it and they were so excited which was-
Carly Haber:
And it worked.
Michael DiGregorio:
And it worked.
Nathan Holbert:
Got to. It's got to at that point.
Michael DiGregorio:
At that point, yeah. Yeah. So it's stuff like that, which was really fun.
Carly Haber:
Things that we could never come up with.
Michael DiGregorio:
No, yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I love that collaborative, collective nature of storytelling.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. It's what you said you call it, you said, right?
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, shared story.
Nathan Holbert:
Shared story.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yes. There's one kid in our class who knows what Dungeons and Dragons is.
Haeny Yoon:
Oh, because he plays it?
Michael DiGregorio:
Because he plays it, which is awesome. Yeah.
Carly Haber:
Yeah. With his dad, he actually likes to create these story maps where they like different options for different settings that you can go to, different problems and solutions. He brings them to class. They're awesome.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. Yeah, just like Choose Your Own Adventure.
Nathan Holbert:
That's so great. I mean, so what do they make of this? They love it, obviously, but what do they think this is? What do they think shared story time is?
Michael DiGregorio:
That's a good question. We basically pitched it as a way to give them more choice in the stories we tell, because a lot of schools, you don't always get a say in what you're learning about, which is... But we're like, "Okay, we can kind of give them these generic-y templates like a haunted house, a cave with a dragon in it, a cabin with a yeti in it, and kind of see what they make of it and they could kind of take it where they want it to go." Sometimes we'll give them a general problem, something vague like your friend is lost or your friend is captured.
Carly Haber:
I feel like they really just think it's a game. Anytime we say, "Time for shared story," it's never like, "Oh, it's work time." It's like, "Let's be creative. Let's do this stuff together. Let's be collaborative and write something really..."
Haeny Yoon:
It's like the thing that you said right at the beginning about narrative agency, right? And how that means so much to... I don't know, the process of even enjoying something like writing or reading is if you had a little bit of agency and choice and how you decide what those elements are going to be or how are you going to engage that it might actually shift and change your participation.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, absolutely.
Carly Haber:
And there's also so many different levels of learners in our class and so if someone can't really write, being able to verbalize it, sorry, is definitely helpful for them or like we have a lot of multilingual language learners, so being able to listen to the story is helpful for them. Yeah.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. And just giving them something to latch on to in that story, Ketsumani with... We gave one of the kids in our class a pet wolf, and she would participate, but not a ton all the time.
Carly Haber:
She's pretty quiet, yeah.
Michael DiGregorio:
She kind of drifts a little bit, but now every story she's asking about her wolf and what's going on with the wolf, which is really cute.
Haeny Yoon:
Oh, that's so great.
Carly Haber:
Yeah. They're all like, "Can I be in it? Can I be in it?"
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, before we have to...
Nathan Holbert:
So are only a few kids involved in each story and then-
Carly Haber:
Yeah, because it'd be 26 characters.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
So all of them are collectively telling the story, but there's a few of them that are main characters in that story.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, exactly.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. Some of them will try to sway where the story... They'll basically try to be the role of the storyteller and they're like, "So now this happens in the story." I'm like, "Well, not exactly. You can't just say what you want, but you could try and we'll roll for it." Just really cute.
Nathan Holbert:
I mean, I've watched older kids play Dungeons and Dragons and they do that too. They also keep trying to murder everything.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
Nathan Holbert:
I'm wondering what are... This sounds fantastic, first of all, and I love that it involves a few key characters that gets to kind of rotate. I love that the whole class gets involved. I love that you're apparently on the table.
Haeny Yoon:
I actually did witness this. So I was like, "Is she going to be okay?"
Nathan Holbert:
Some safety concerns.
Carly Haber:
I've never fallen.
Haeny Yoon:
Very nimble.
Nathan Holbert:
Well, I wonder what's the secret sauce here? So what is... It's all a system, it's all of it probably, but I'm curious if you feel like there are pieces of this that really do draw the students into the storytelling in a way that if you were just doing... I mean, even if you were just doing the drawing and the storytelling, right? Or even if you were just doing kind of a collaborative, "I'll tell a part of the story, then you tell the next line, then you tell the next line," it would be different. Is it the dice? Is it the table? Is it the kids being characters? How do you think about this?
Carly Haber:
I think it's all a little bit of everything, right?
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah.
Carly Haber:
I think the dice adds a little bit of unpredictability, a chance, so it's not really all up to them.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. No, I agree. Even before when we were playing the game, just having the two options, but not knowing necessarily where it's going to go, is really fun. And especially where the kids are in control of it, and yeah, the dice was way bigger than I thought it was going to be. It adds a sports aspect to it almost where you don't know. You kind of have a hand in the outcome.
Carly Haber:
But there's still chance.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. And you can influence it with things like we're starting to introduce stats, like perception, you can notice what's going around, but it's one thing at a time.
Haeny Yoon:
Slowly.
Carly Haber:
Also being able to act things out for the kids.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, you just bring it to life for them, which is so cool.
Carly Haber:
Unstructured.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah.
Carly Haber:
It's totally unstructured time and I feel like the rest of our day is super structured and so it's almost like a time to just let loose and share a story. It's in the title.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.
Nathan Holbert:
Do the kids act things out too when they're...
Carly Haber:
They're going crazy.
Michael DiGregorio:
What's happening now is they'll try to influence the story outside of shared story. They'll tell me ideas or car like, "Oh, this should happen next and this should happen next." It's like-
Haeny Yoon:
Oh, they're campaigning.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, exactly. And so we bought them storyteller dice, which is just like a set of dice with just random pictures on it. It'll be like a happy mask, a bee or something. So then they do that during choice time. They'll make their own stories. Which is really fun.
Carly Haber:
We roll five dice at a time and it's a leaf and a giant and a footprint and come up with a story with all of it.
Nathan Holbert:
Put it all together.
Carly Haber:
So that they can kind of do our big story on their own.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I feel like that is the perfect intersection of play and learning because I feel like they're definitely learning so much. They're learning the arc of a story. They're learning about narrative elements. They're learning about multimodal storytelling, that storytelling is not just about words, but it's those words and it's the drawings and it's the movement and gestures and it's the objects of materials that add texture to what it actually is. So I feel like they are learning so many different elements of storytelling. And then it's so interesting that they kind of see that as like, "Oh, this is like our playtime." Actually they're really learning.
Nathan Holbert:
Your literacy time. Yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
And I feel like that's like the part or the piece that we want to get to as teachers, right? There's always what we're striving for is how do we make learning a space that's productive and generative, but then also really fun and joyful.
Nathan Holbert:
Do they see these things as connected? I mean, they're playing now during their choice time using some of the same elements. Are there other moments throughout the day that might involve more kind of what typical kind of schooly reading type activities or literacy type activities? Do they notice any connections between those pieces or do they feel like they're kind of separate?
Michael DiGregorio:
I'd say like maybe with genres a little bit, we were talking about... One of the things we're learning about is like realistic fiction versus fantasy. And sometimes kids will come up and say like, "Oh, these are like characters in a fiction story, but then not a realistic fiction because that couldn't really happen with dragons and stuff." So that's been a nice connection.
Carly Haber:
Other than that, their writing has improved tremendously. We don't do much creative writing because our curriculum is scripted and so we do have something to follow. But when they do... They have their journals and sometimes they write their own stories and we've seen improvement in the creativity and the art and all of the stuff and the stories as well.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I mean, it's not surprising that it would transfer and translate it to something like that, right?
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Okay. I'm curious for everybody, what do you think makes a good story?
Michael DiGregorio:
That's a good question.
Haeny Yoon:
Is it-
Michael DiGregorio:
Dragons. Insert a dragon into any story.
Haeny Yoon:
Insert a dragon into any story?
Carly Haber:
Insert a villain to any story.
Haeny Yoon:
Insert villain. Yeah. That is so true though, because I feel like the most successful reality shows has a villain.
Nathan Holbert:
Oh, yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
And you have to be able to hate somebody.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, that's how you came about in the story because we needed a cliffhanger at the end. They saved the day, but then there's something extra. It's like a show.
Carly Haber:
He always makes me some sort of creature. I've been a vampire. I've been a angler fish before, one of those really ugly fish people like.
Michael DiGregorio:
Well, you could transform into different creatures. That's your power.
Carly Haber:
There you go.
Michael DiGregorio:
We could work you into any story.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.
Nathan Holbert:
Villains. Villains and dragons.
Haeny Yoon:
Villains and drag. Okay. You heard it here first. The best stories are villains and dragons. Okay. Mike, we would be remiss if we didn't ask you, what is the book that you illustrated about? Tell us about this.
Michael DiGregorio:
It is called I Need An Idea.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay.
Michael DiGregorio:
Aptly titled, because my old teacher friend, Amanda, she has two daughters and she would tell them this bedtime story when they were growing up. And she wrote it down and she knew that I like to draw and illustrate. And she asked me to illustrate it one year. It was during COVID, so I had a lot of time on my hands and sat down and it was a lot of fun. And now yeah, this shared story time has kind of given us an outlet to draw more and be more creative with the kids too and showcase off some art skills. And yeah, it was a great time.
Carly Haber:
Yeah. We both love art so much. And so last year we got to collaborate our first time really doing a big panel together for the school set design. And so now we're doing set design club.
Haeny Yoon:
Oh, nice.
Carly Haber:
Which is crazy.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, yeah.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. Once we started teaching together last year, and you were drawing a flower or something. Once I saw Carly could draw, I'm like, "Okay, great. We could cover the classroom in art."
Carly Haber:
Yeah. That's something we also like to do. We have like Bluey hanging on the wall, Stitch hanging on the wall, Wall-E, Pokemon, or what's his name? Pikachu. I'm sorry.
Michael DiGregorio:
Pokeman. Don't let the kids hear that.
Nathan Holbert:
Mad at me.
Carly Haber:
Oh yeah, we had a Pokemon party and I spelled it Pokeman by accident.
Michael DiGregorio:
Classic.
Carly Haber:
I got in trouble.
Michael DiGregorio:
The kids, it's nice to see Pokemon's still very popular with the kids.
Haeny Yoon:
Also there's less Spider-Man, right, Mike?
Michael DiGregorio:
Oh, yes.
Carly Haber:
That's him.
Michael DiGregorio:
That's my influence. Yes. That's the reason I wanted to draw so much. I just wanted to draw Spider-Man over and over again.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I mean, I love that because I think I've shared this with each of you before, is that I think so much of elementary education is about the child and being child centered and making everything focused on that, that I think sometimes we forget that teachers are also human beings with interests and passions and things that they want to bring into the classroom. And that I see such a beautiful intersection of the children and you in there. And I think that your influences in that space, I think is such a magical part of teaching.
Carly Haber:
Oh, thanks.
Michael DiGregorio:
Thank you. Yeah.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.
Nathan Holbert:
Fully agree. It's clear this is an experience that's not just for them, it's also kind of for you.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.
Nathan Holbert:
That makes it worthwhile.
Haeny Yoon:
We have so much fun.
Michael DiGregorio:
We needed players.
Haeny Yoon:
And that's really what makes teaching fun, right?
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
Is that if you can actually bring yourself and it's not just you sacrificing your whole selves for children, but that you are also being part of that work.
Carly Haber:
Exactly. I was so nervous to come here and what did you say to me? You were like, "You act every day."
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Part of teaching is-
Carly Haber:
"You do this every day."
Haeny Yoon:
It's so funny.
Carly Haber:
So, that made me feel better.
Haeny Yoon:
That is so true.
Nathan Holbert:
So this has been a really great conversation. Before we let you go though, we do always like to ask our guests what's popping. So what is happening out in the world? What are some TV shows or books or video games or movies or music that you're into right now that you think our Pop and Play listeners might also enjoy?
Michael DiGregorio:
That's a good question.
Carly Haber:
I got to think about it.
Michael DiGregorio:
I don't know. I'm not sure if I'm enjoying it, but I'm playing the Resident Evil. Resident Evil's like a horror game.
Haeny Yoon:
I love horror.
Michael DiGregorio:
The new one came out. It's really good, but very scary. So I can only play it like middle of the day lights on.
Haeny Yoon:
Oh, really?
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah, it's really good though. It's just very terrifying.
Haeny Yoon:
What makes it good? Is it the...
Michael DiGregorio:
It's like you feel the... Part of the game is it's first person, so it's from the character's point of view. So you're seeing what they're seeing.
Haeny Yoon:
Oh, you don't see the character.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yes. And you're just like this kind of helpless character has like a flashlight and you're walking around this deserted hotel.
Haeny Yoon:
No.
Michael DiGregorio:
If I make it through, I don't know. But maybe your inspiration for next year's Haunted Mansion.
Carly Haber:
No. I would have a heart attack.
Nathan Holbert:
This reminds me whenever you'd said something about the Last of Us before. I don't know if you remember that we played some Last of Us together-
Haeny Yoon:
We played it? Oh, my god.
Michael DiGregorio:
That's a scary game.
Nathan Holbert:
We have some footage of that from before when we tried out Twitch.
Michael DiGregorio:
Oh, nice. That's cool.
Nathan Holbert:
There was lots of screaming.
Haeny Yoon:
We tried to play a video game on Twitch before, okay? And we tried Last of Us. And there's something about controlling the thing that is not intuitive. So basically the whole Twitch stream was me running into the wall, running into a barrel, trying to jump over something and falling. That was so funny.
Nathan Holbert:
Pretty much.
Michael DiGregorio:
That's awesome.
Haeny Yoon:
And then just me screaming.
Nathan Holbert:
Screaming.
Carly Haber:
There's a learning curve to everything.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, there is.
Carly Haber:
Yes. I've been watching Survivor. That's been my thing recently. Survivor season 50 just came out.
Nathan Holbert:
What in the world? 50?
Haeny Yoon:
50. A three-hour premiere.
Carly Haber:
Three hour premiere and this season is controlled by the fans. So...
Haeny Yoon:
What does that mean?
Carly Haber:
They get to choose whether they get to use idols or what kind of challenges or if they... I don't even know.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.
Carly Haber:
Absolutely.
Haeny Yoon:
I mean, for those that don't know, this is the 50th season.
Nathan Holbert:
It can't be 50th anniversary because...
Haeny Yoon:
Because they have multiple seasons-
Carly Haber:
Like two a year.
Haeny Yoon:
... in one year.
Nathan Holbert:
A year. Okay.
Haeny Yoon:
It's the 50th season and they brought back people from all the other seasons.
Carly Haber:
Oh, my God.
Michael DiGregorio:
That's really cool.
Carly Haber:
I almost teared up.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. And there was a three-hour premiere that I have yet to watch, but I'm going to.
Carly Haber:
Oh, I watched it.
Haeny Yoon:
I'm going to be a survivor of 50.
Nathan Holbert:
Survive the three hours.
Carly Haber:
You will be a fan, I promise.
Nathan Holbert:
Well, great. Thank you very much for telling us about both of those things, for talking with us about your classroom and the shared storytelling. That was great.
Carly Haber:
Thanks for having us.
Michael DiGregorio:
Yeah. Thank you guys for having us. Yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Thanks for coming.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. Thanks for joining us on our next play date here with that role playing and we'll be back again in a few weeks. So bye.
Haeny Yoon:
Bye.