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Yush Sztalkoper: [00:00:00] So by the time they enter the workforce, the majority of the workforce will be neurodivergent. And this is not a coincidence and is not purely because there's more diagnoses and there's more understanding. It's also because all those external factors that I mentioned before, they are literally rewiring our brain.
Podcast Host (Mike): The world is changing For most humans, change is uncomfortable and challenging to address financial and political uncertainty. Friction with back to office mandates and challenging hybrid workplace collaboration. Not to forget. Important environmental social responsibility and governance initiatives.
Combined with the rapid pace of digital transformation and the need for human-centered AI integration, change is happening and fast. This rapid change has highlighted the need for increased speed to innovation. And long lasting [00:01:00] change adoption in many organizations. Whether you are a startup working on agile process or a mature organization, navigating change within existing complex structures, the skillset and need to adapt has never been more vital.
The team from Strategy Table wanna help the wider world understand the need and approach to meaningful and impactful change management. Helping organizations navigate disruption and make change accessible, it often starts with a meaningful conversation. This is accessible disruption.
Anthony Vade: Welcome to another episode of Accessible Disruption. When we ask challenging questions like, how do our brains really work, and how do we embrace change so that it becomes accessible for people? Today we're gonna jump into a fascinating topic that's near and dear to all of the hosts of Accessible Disruption.
We're gonna be talking with Y Kapa about neurodiversity. I'm of [00:02:00] course Anthony Vade, co-founder of Strategy Table, and joining me are my co-hosts and co-founders, Tahira and Dean and Ryan Hill. Now it's customary for me to throw to Tahira at this point and ask, uh, who is OSH to you? But Ryan, you've also spent some time with your, so I'd like to have you kick us off today, Ryan, who is our guest to you.
Ryan Hill: I thought about this a lot and I think I settled on the best scripter right now would probably be an inspiration, uh, maybe a kindred spirit that might be a one way feeling. But when I first connected with you, she was, because Tahira plugged us in and we started talking about. The twice exceptional dilemma in the workplace and in society and how Neurodivergence has grown an acceptance.
But there's a long way to go in, in advocacy and awareness on how we build spaces and places, uh, that accommodate the, both the challenges and the opportunities of bringing in neurodivergent folks to the workplace. And um, I think it was funny 'cause we had 30 minutes scheduled and we [00:03:00] ran for an hour and a half 'cause we just.
Once we got the ball rolling, it was just, it was nice to feed off of someone that understood, you know, some of my experiences and also brought a unique lens as both a parent and someone who is, uh, neurodivergent themselves to me, I think inspiration, 'cause I've seen. What she's able to do with Neuros Spark and the journey of, of discovery, uh, and just turning that into something meaningful and valuable for the world through that, that learning journey.
Yush Sztalkoper: Uh, I think, I think I'm slightly in tears from, um, Ryan's intro. Ryan, thank you so much and you're definitely not alone. I definitely also agree, feel a bit like a kindred spirit here, and I think so much. So many of us have so much in common and sometimes it just takes having that conversation to be able to understand how we connect deeper.
Um, and so thank you so much for that intro and Anthony and Hir for having me. You know, I know all three of you in in different capacities, but. I think our [00:04:00] work is so aligned and it's really an honor to be here, to engage in deeper thinking, in, in, in how we can help humans, um, continue to thrive. So neuros Sport Plus, so there is a little plus sign and it is intentional.
Um. Neuros Spark Plus, as most of you know, was started personally, I actually didn't start out to build anything. Um, about five years ago, my neurodivergent twice exceptional sons started experiencing challenges, um, and struggles that I couldn't understand, and that essentially brought me on this journey and, and this path to trying to figure out how can I support him better and what is going on.
In him that helps me understand him so that I can meet him where he is. And I later discover that I'm also neurodivergent because parenting him and trying to find the solutions to support him in the ways that he needed to be supported was like looking in a mirror. [00:05:00] So that was just the sense making that was happening to me on a deeper level.
And watching my child struggle in systems that weren't designed for how his nervous system worked, actually forced me to see so much. And also to recognize that there's a lot around our environments and our cultures and our systems that are really not designed for a lot of us. And I realize we keep asking humans to adapt.
Two environments, and as we all know, our environments have evolved so much. Overstimulation, digitization, and toxins everywhere is putting a lot of strain and pressure on the humans. And so I eventually understood that the problem wasn't him. It was the conditions in which he was living in and, and it was a holistic understanding that it wasn't just one thing, it was all these things together.
And I [00:06:00] call it my five, um, human five domains. And that is wiring, regulation, energy processing, and belonging. Because to me, those were all areas where I really had to figure out how to support him. And it was actually reflecting back. I started to see that those were the five domains that kind of captured everything.
So Neuros, Spak Plus kind of grew out of that, and the way I work now is really focusing upstream on those conditions. How do we help stabilize and restore human capacity so that. People don't have to keep performing or burning out just to fit in and belong. And so the impact I hope to make is that fewer people are blaming themselves or think that they are the problem.
Um, and more systems allow humans to show up exactly as they are.
Tahira Endean: I. I think that this is really important work that you're doing. So one of the things that, [00:07:00] this is called accessible disruption because it is what we realized is that disruption is difficult for people. Change is difficult, but we can also make it accessible.
And it feels like that's exactly what you're trying to do. So one of the things that you talk about with Neuros Spark is you have this idea of the difference between the readiness gap and the discipline gap, so that there's not this. Lack of motivation or necessarily even skill in the workforce, but that we're just maybe not quite ready for that to happen.
So can you explain why some of the traditional change management that happens, um, focusing on training, behavior adoption. But it's often failing to land in today's, as you said, you're not, it's about the conditions that we're in, the environment that we're in, not necessarily every human is different in those conditions and why we need to really be looking at individuals and biology over strategy.
Yush Sztalkoper: I love that question because it allows us to think. [00:08:00] Upstream around how humans actually function. And I know this is a topic that Anthony talks about that changes biology. And so to me, disruption is neurobiological. It's. Before it's strategic. I think we are very familiar that there are incredible strategies out there.
There are great solutions out there, but why don't they always work? And that to me comes down to the question of are humans ready? And so the difference between discipline and motivation is that. Some people might be open to change and they're like, I'm excited for it. I'm ready for it. But if they don't have the capacity to actually take on and absorb that change and be able to sustainably in implement it, then there's the biggest barrier gap.
So capacity in that regard means. Do you have the bandwidth? Do you actually have the, the ability to process this information and not [00:09:00] feel overwhelmed by it? Are you already juggling so much that you're like, great, this is just something else I'm going to add to the list. And so when you think about neurobiological, that's to me, I just, I'm just going, I tend to focus on the nervous system because so much of.
My work that I did to help my son was understanding how his nervous system worked. Nervous system intersected all those five domains I mentioned earlier, because that's how we then make sense of everything. That's how we absorb process information. That's how we feel safe in our environment. And so, you know, when I talk about masking and burnout, that's actually the nervous system, feeling unsafe.
I'm masking because I can't be myself. Maybe I'm lacking the skills in order to implement this change, but I'm going to perform or pretend like I know because that's what's expected of me. And then burnout, A lot of people are managing so much that they're overwhelmed. They cannot actually add anything else to the load.
And so what's happening collectively as AI is [00:10:00] accelerating everything, the pace. Of change. The pace of being human has changed and has exponentially accelerated. We're not able to keep up and this is why people were burning out. And that's because they're struggling to be able to maintain and sustain this workload and the ability to juggle family and workplace.
I'm a millennial and I am a, what is called a sandwich generation, so I have aging parents that I help care for. I also have two young children who are birth neurodivergent. I'm neurodivergent, and then I'm also re-parenting myself because. I didn't get the support that I had growing up, not because my parents didn't love me, but they didn't know.
And so a lot of us are experiencing all these external sort of compounding loads and when you think about adding something else to, that's why change becomes heart, and that's what I mean by capacity.
Anthony Vade: One of the things I love about your website, and by the way listeners, you've gotta jump over to the Neuro Spark Plus website, the links in the [00:11:00] description below, so make sure you check out.
There's so much detail in there, there's so much inspiration and it's really, like we've said, it's very accessible as well to start to address these challenging topics. One thing that stood out to me and really jumped out was this idea of stabilize first. Uh, and if we understand this biology, we understand this rapid.
Pace of change and how that can be disruptive to people. Yours. How? How do, how do we, practically speaking, how do we convince leaders or work with leaders perhaps to enable their teams to sort of pause and build that capacity? Knowing that the market pressures to move fast and break things is just so prevalent across all industries.
How do we make sure that the things we're breaking aren't the people? How do we stabilize?
Yush Sztalkoper: Well to me, you know, this is the upstream work. Stabilization must come first because if you don't stabilize, people compensate. And I think we all know what the [00:12:00] predictable outcome is. If people are compensating or performing or pretending they know what they're doing, is that something is going to break and probably sooner rather than later.
And so when we're talking about sustainable change, change that actually holds and that sticks and that people feel confident in kind of adapting to is that you need to ensure the humans who are adopting that change. And who is implementing to change has the ability to be able to, to, you know, steward it.
And so stabilization doesn't mean slowing down. It doesn't mean lowing standards. Um, it just means helping the nervous system settle enough so that you have clarity. I know what I'm supposed to do and I know how to do it. I know why this is valuable for my job. I know this is why, this is why it's important for my organization.
And in those really high performing teams that you're mentioning, stabilization actually looks like understanding prioritization. [00:13:00] So let's just say there's a company that has adopted an AI tool and they're really excited about implementing it and everybody's on board, but then they also have all these other initiatives.
That's that have to happen simultaneously. Is everybody dropping everything just to focus on AI or does it have to happen in tandem with everything else that you're doing? And then how are you also, how are leaders creating the ability to integrate these? Does this work in alignment with the other initiatives that are already being rolled out?
Um, does this fit into your day-to-day? What does all these things look like? So I think as leaders, we need to ask these questions that always come back to the human and thinking about what is their low, what's their capacity, what's their ability to absorb this? Do they have the skills have or do they have this readiness to be able to embrace what it is that we're about to unload on them?
So that's kind of what I mean with stabilization.
Anthony Vade: I'm gonna want to come back to that, a AI conversation and the [00:14:00] acceleration. 'cause you know, it's my, I'm the tech head out of this group and I'm obsessed with it. But Ryan, you work heavily with leadership teams and with, uh, teams working with leaders, uh, maybe not leadership.
Well, what are your thoughts on, on what we're talking about here and maybe some questions?
Ryan Hill: I think stabilization looks different for different people at different times, but I. I think that I, I've been kind of dwelling on what you ended on last time, which was the capacity question. Because I feel like in my mind, without going deeper down that rabbit hole, yet, that stability cannot be achieved if we aren't past capacity.
Right? No matter how much we put into trying to stabilize, if there are too many things vying for our attention, we can't do it. So I kinda look at it like, my analogy for it is like, uh. Uh, when you're getting speed wobble on a snowboard or a skateboard going downhill, if you don't get things under control, then it's only a matter of time.
You might still maintain momentum for a bit, but you will crash. And I think that's kind of [00:15:00] my simple man's way of interpreting this 'cause it's probably a little bit of my head. But the capacity part, I think is distinctly important to talk about because there is the effort, uh, and this is something that I as a, as someone with neurodivergence have struggled with, is sometimes it's not.
For lack of trying or lack of desire, it's just for lack of capacity, uh, that I can't achieve what I'm trying to achieve, and I feel like I'm letting people down when that happens. I think that's not unique to me alone. So I'd be curious to know how, if we don't stabilize or we don't acknowledge that people are at capacity, what is the risk and how do we separate someone's efforts with their cap from their capacity in that regard?
Yush Sztalkoper: Um, so the way I think about the sequence, to me, change is all about sequence, because you can have the motivation, you can have the efforts, you can have the tools, you can [00:16:00] have all the right things, but if you're sequencing it wrong, it's not going to land. And so stabilization to me must come first. And then what stabilization enables is it actually restores that capacity.
And so once that capacity is restored. It establishes the readiness. And that readiness isn't just for AI adoption, it's for any change that an organization, a team, an individual is going to face. Because what you're doing is you are creating sort of a stable system that can absorb anything new and uncertain and complex to come its way.
And the reality is AI has not, has brought a lot, one of the things that we. AI can guarantee is constant change and constant complexity. I think we all know that this is the norm, new norm now. This is what we're operating in. It hasn't, it's not an episodic event where it's arrived and we're good and we're gonna stabilize It is going to just keep changing.
And [00:17:00] so when you think about that, stabilization is important from all different levels. Human systems are fractal, right? So at the individual level, impacts the team level, impacts the org level, impacts through the system level. And so when you think about it, it always needs to come back down to the human.
And so the capacity to me is, you know, some people think of it as bandwidth. Do you have the bandwidth to be able to do all of this? And because I talk about nervous system, I always think. Back to, does this human feel safe being able to adopt this change or being part of this change? Do they feel ready?
Are they feeling like they have everything under control, where they're feeling stabilized, calm and confident and clear about what these expectations are? And oftentimes when it comes to change, especially within organizations, that change is external And so. We oftentimes think about change management as something that happens to humans, but the way I look at it is it's happening to humans within the [00:18:00] system, and so how can we focus on the people that are going to be most impacted by it and help stabilize them, and then everything else sort of ripples from there.
Anthony Vade: This is something we're gonna unpack 'cause this is, I think recognizing when these moments occur is really important for leaders to, to lead with that level of empathy. But we need to take a quick short break here to hear from some of our sponsors. Of course, if you want to hear this episode ad free without interruptions, head on over to strategy table.co.
Sign up for your seat at the table to hear extended versions. Get access to a whole bunch of amazing resources that can help you make change accessible to other people. We'll be right back after this quick break.
Okay, and we're back. [00:19:00] And I wanna unpack a little bit of what you just shared, perhaps with a personal story. Because when we talk about both capacity and we talk about stabilizing first, that could be challenging for leaders to address 'cause humans are so different and unique. In my personal case, uh, we kicked off the year.
It's as, uh, early 2026, uh, depending on when you are listening to this episode. So it's January and it can be a pretty stressful time as we come back off of the break period and businesses fire back up and, uh, deadlines start approaching and everybody's in a bit of a mad panic rush. Monday, Tuesday night, I could not sleep to save myself.
I was awake until three 4:00 AM. Everything going through my A DHD brain telling me all the things I need to do, uh, being the high functioning person, I was planning everything, uh, as much as I could, and it was just going in these horrible loops and it really affected my performance in the following days because I was sleep deprived and all of those, all of those good things that that come [00:20:00] now, funnily enough, my week has been insane.
It's been jam packed back to back meetings and everything's. Moving along and my sleeping has improved even though I've been working harder because I've been able to comfort myself in the effort and the work. And I've kind of stabilized now from the way that I felt on on Monday, and I'd had to recognize as leading myself in this scenario that, that I needed to pause and needed to calm myself somewhat and my nervous system to stop being agitated.
So that I could then actually look at the tasks I have in front of me and be more methodical as I approach them. But you how? How can a leader recognize when somebody's going through something like what I was going through earlier this week and develop that empathy skill to see that they may have hit their limit or there may be capacity issues, or they may need to have some assistance in stabilizing?
What are the telltale signs, knowing that we're all unique and different.
Yush Sztalkoper: I [00:21:00] just want to acknowledge your experience because you weren't the only one. Anthony, I could see it clear as day on LinkedIn who was stressed out and who was overwhelmed. So I just wanna quickly explain a little bit about the nervous system here.
So when your nervous system has had the ability to take a break, it actually calms down and it almost becomes less hypervigilant because becomes. Less on, on guard, right? Because that's your nervous system is a protection mechanism for you. It's to help keep you safe. And so when it feels overwhelmed and anxious and overloaded, all those things, it's a signal.
It doesn't mean anything's wrong with you or that you're broken. None of those things, it just means it's a signal and that you're doing a lot more than you probably can handle right now. And so when you come back from a state where the nervous system is calm and it's been able to restore. It actually feels like whiplash because then you're like, wait a second, [00:22:00] all the stuff I've put off is now back on my plate.
And so then you become stressed out about it because you know that the load is heavy. You know, there are a lot of things that you have to do on your to-do list. And so that's, that's when it kicks into almost this protective gear, like, oh my gosh, like there's too much, and it's a signal, like I said, and you have to pay attention to it.
And what you've done, the reason why you've been able to see. The kind of coming back to a calmer nervous system is because those things have started to be checked off. You've gotten things done. You're obviously very productive and efficient, so I know you were probably just hammering through all those things.
You got it done and your nervous system started to normalize and stabilize and think, oh, I've gotten all these things taken care of. I'm in a good place. And if you start to notice patterns, you will notice as a typical pattern that most people experience in high performing, high achieving sort of type of roles, because that's how our week starts.
Because we've had the weekend to stabilize and then the week starts and you're [00:23:00] like, wait a second, I got all these things to do. And then by Wednesday or Thursday, things start calming down. It is not. Just random. It is a pattern. It is how you function and how you operate. But when you know this about yourself and when leaders start to too, 'cause all these things is what leads to masking burnout, you know, overwhelm and, uh, disengagement and maybe, um, errors in their, in their workload and whatnot.
And you can also see it in their energy levels and body language. If I could magically encourage leaders to do something, it wouldn't just be. Learn how to be empathetic. It would be how do you prevent this from happening? How do you build in support systems so that the person who may be struggling the most with this will not ever be put in this position?
Because to me, and I noticed, I saw this time and time and time again with my son when he was dysregulated, it was too late. His nervous system was already impacted. [00:24:00] What we needed to constantly do was always think before. Earlier, how do you prevent him from getting into a dysregulated state? And this is how all of our nervous systems work, is that if we can prevent that, and so this isn't just about leaders doing the work, it's also about individuals recognizing this is the pattern.
I see this pattern and I'm going to do something about it. It takes sort of this. Tandem effort in order for us to see stabilization change capacity, and, you know, the five domains, the wiring, regulation, energy, and, um, processing and belonging. Maybe in a future podcast, we can deep dive into those. I, I think there's some of information on my website, but those all help provide sort of a map.
In how we think about where am I depleted right now? Where do I need more support? And at the end of the day, those five domains need to be aligned across the board [00:25:00] in order for you to feel the stabilization, in order for you to have the capacity to be able to face whatever it is that life is throwing at you.
And there's a lot. And so I think. I don't think we can magically just make all the stress and everything go away, but what we can do is start to understand ourselves better. What are our limits? Where is our capacity being stretched? Where am I overperforming and how am I overusing my strengths? I think Ryan is very familiar with that phrase, uh, because when I talk about neurodivergent individuals, the thing about us is the way that we always show up.
You know, high performing, high, achieving high everything is because we overuse our strengths. And our strengths are something that most people celebrate, right? It's like, wow, that's an incredible strength you have. And that's when it can tip into overuse. And when it tips into overuse, that's when we don't honor.
Our systems and what we can balance and what we need to stabilize,
Tahira Endean: and [00:26:00] we know that there's certainly some corporations. We have the example of EY and their dyslexia program, which they're focusing on reframing the business benefits of different brain functions. The latest. Statistics that I saw were that if we say 26% of people right now are neurodivergent by 2050, it'll be 70% of the world.
So, you know, clearly there's work to be done for individuals and organizations to be successful. Are you seeing other corporate teams like that's, I think that is part of your work of neuros Sparks. Are you seeing other corporate teams being successful at this? And are you finding, you're having to really explain and encourage, how are you finding it out there in the.
World of trying to get these messages out of all of the things you're saying that are just smart, relevant. Thank you, Tira, that means a lot
Yush Sztalkoper: coming from you. Also, I think something I, I love that you brought up the statistic because I actually think that's. Statistic is wrong. It is not accurate. Sorry.
It's not accurate because most aren't right. Exactly, and it's not because [00:27:00] of what we can control. The fact is there are a lot of people who are undiagnosed who don't even know that they're wired differently or neurodivergent or because there's so much stigma around being labeled and diagnosed that. A lot of people I see because this is why I focus so much and I, I develop what is called the root reflection because I realized there was this psychological safety that was missing.
And we live in a culture and a society that has not normalized being wired differently, and Neurodivergence is seen as a negative. This is why I talk about Neurodivergence purely in a strength-based perspective, because I want people to actually truly understand what it is that we bring to the table and that we shouldn't be seeing for our.
Differences, but more for what actually we contribute. And so, you know, the, there's studies that are mapping or are predicting, so we already know Gen Z is, I wanna say self-identify, 53% neurodivergent. And that's [00:28:00] because they have a lot more awareness and they're more comfortable with the label or, and, and all of these things.
And then Jen Alpha, which is my children's. Generation, they are predicted to be 70% neurodivergent. So by the time they enter the workforce, the majority of the workforce will be neurodivergent. And this is not a coincidence and is not purely because there's more diagnoses and there's more understanding.
It's also because all those external factors that I mentioned before, they are literally rewiring our brain toxins, pollution. Stimulate overstimulation screens everywhere. All these things and the way we learn has changed, right? It's rewiring our brain and it's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just that we are now able, we're now thinking differently than how we have in the past and, and because of ai, it's allowed us our brains to think very differently too.
So, all that to say, I think there's still a lot of resistance. To these types of programs [00:29:00] because people don't understand it. And because I sat in these systems, I have this firsthand perspective because I lived it of what doesn't work. And the, I think the biggest obstacle for organizations that are adopting programs to support neurodivergent talent, a lot of it by the way, is focused on recruiting because we, a lot of people already know about the superpowers and the strengths, right?
What we bring to the table, and to me the, the opportunity. Well, what do you do once they're in your organization? How are you supporting them? Are they still having to raise their hand for accommodations? Are they the ones that have to say, Hey, I actually can't work in this environment. I can help you come up with the most innovative ideas.
How are we thinking about creating the conditions to enable the those neurodivergent individuals to thrive? I have been working quite a bit in that sort of identity based solution space, if [00:30:00] you will, and I actually went upstream for that because from that, because I realized if we just focus on supporting identity based audience group of people, that is not going to help the rest of the population understand how to meet us, where we need to be met.
And so that's why I'm like, you know what? We need to think universally, and I think we all know that when you design from the edges, you benefit everybody in the middle. And that is the concept of universal design. We know about the curbside wheelchair access and then kids with stroller, uh, parents with strollers, and then, uh, delivery people.
Everybody started benefiting from it. It wasn't something they thought they needed, but once you created it and designed it. It was something that was universally beneficial. And so I think that's how leaders need to think. Not, Hey, how do I support and help this one small group, potentially group of people, [00:31:00] but how do we create the conditions and redesign work in a way that.
Makes everybody's life easier because then you don't have to work about a worry about a subgroup of people, and then you don't have to worry about, am I getting this right? Am I getting this wrong? You know, I think we all know that everybody's on a spectrum. We all learn differently, think differently, respond differently, and process differently.
If that's the case, why are we only designing for a few? We should be designing for everybody.
Anthony Vade: We love to say that a, uh, 25% of this, 4% of this, 1% of this, and, and it doesn't really address. Exactly what you've said. The fact that we are all human, we're probably all on some sort of spectrum, and the rate of change that we all face is unprecedented, and we now understand that neuroplasticity is a real thing.
Our brains are constantly changing under the influences that we have at. With all the things you've shared from diet to environmental, uh, to external [00:32:00] stimuli, and there's no avoiding the fact that we will continue to change. And we've done a lot of work with corporations, each individually, and we've seen the frustration that leaders have as they establish yet another SOP standard operating procedure and find that they keep reinventing these standard operating procedures and they're not.
Working because they were created in a silo, often amongst a certain type of personality that thrives in some sort of structure. And then they roll that standard operating procedure out to an organization and they all get angry that no one's adhering to it and they're not getting the results that they thought.
Instead of what we think and why we started strategy table. Bring everybody to the table. Find a way to create those procedural elements in a way that it suits more brains instead of constantly combating against the, the few making decisions for the many. And it, and we know that's no [00:33:00] small task to say that you're gonna apply.
Universal design can seem daunting and intimidating and difficult, but we like to argue that. Things aren't great right now, right? There's not many corporations out there that can say everything's running swimmingly for them. Most of the leadership teams are in a state of reacting more than they are being strategic on way they're heading.
So I think our argument is that we need to do the work and we need to really take universal design seriously if we're going create impact. Otherwise, we're just gonna continue to play whack-a-Mole with, uh, with team members as, as they pop their head ups and, and they ask for accommodations, which are important.
I like to also say there's a difference between accommodation and enablement, that you don't necessarily need to isolate individuals and accommodate them in a very specific way if you enable everybody to thrive in a true universal design. We, I think we need to do almost an episode just on universal design and what it means.
So I don't want to, uh, have us go down that rabbit hole. But I do want to [00:34:00] bring you back to the AI because, uh, we mentioned that we touched on it a few times through this as well, and. This has opened up to the rest of the team. I am a heavy AI user and have been for a long time. When I say a long time, a very, very long time because I classify tools like Grammarly, which is a, uh, language-based tool that allows you to work on sentence structure, grammar, punctuation, a lot of the things that my dyslexic brain has always struggled with.
Um, so I've been using Grammarly since. Geez, the mid 2010s when it first came out, and it's had a massive impact on my competence as anything to see my writing improve through statistics on the weekly that says that I have made less errors or I've picked up, it's actually been training my brain. So it's actually been a addressing the neuroplasticity of my brain through using that AI tool to help with my dyslexia and my writings improve to the extent that I was able to write a book, which I, I told my mother that I'd.[00:35:00]
Written a book and, and shared it with her and just blew her mind to think of this dyslexic kid that she, uh, struggled with through schooling to. She's like, I, I can't believe you got it done. But it's, but I use these AI tools to help me in a way. And I think there's a lot of stigma going around with AI right now that it's ruining our brains.
And there was a great study out of Harvard that's. Said that students who use AI extensively for research and writing purposes only retain that information for 15 minutes after using the tool when they're not actually learning with it. But then they counter that study with students who were on some sort of neurodiverse spectrum and needed a additional assistance with learning.
Actually found that if they were using AI as a tutor, like collaborative partner. They were actually increasing learning retention and it was benefiting them as well. I'm curious, where have you seen AI in both navigating universal design and then [00:36:00] for the individual and perhaps those that are both challenged and then those that may be exceptional too.
Where does it sit in your thinking of the future of AI's role?
Yush Sztalkoper: Um, I have a very similar experience as you with ai, ai. To me, the way I see it, look, all of us talk about AI being the great equalizer. It's almost like level setting for a lot of people to be able to bring them to the same place, right? To have the same sort of basic skills, abilities.
And for neurodivergent brains, I think it's the great maximizer because what it does is it helps us. Actually strengthen the skills and strengths and superpowers we already have. And it also fills in some of those gaps where I, I don't know if you guys know, but English is my second language and I don't know that I ever got the proper foundation.
I did the best I could with learning it. I speak it very well, but, um, but it's, it's, the writing was always an [00:37:00] obstacle for me. And I used to think that I was such a terrible writer just because maybe I didn't learn sentence and text correctly. I don't know. But when I got my A DHD diagnosis, and since I had already been on a journey to kind of sense making, understanding how my brain worked, I realized that I'm actually a verbal learner.
I learned through speaking and, and the more I talk, the more I actually process and make sense of things. And that writing. There was almost this barrier. As soon as the words landed on a piece of paper or on print or somewhere, it almost like. I just stop. I'm like, I have like writer's block and I just can't, because then I get hung up on am I writing the right thing?
How is this landing? And so a lot of it was probably my insecurity, but it was because I didn't get the maybe proper foundation. And so that actually created this internal narrative for me, pretty much my whole educational career, that I wasn't as smart as everybody else. And because everything is evaluated on [00:38:00] how you write.
And so this is why I didn't really have much of a voice until. AI came along because I did the same thing that you've been doing. Anthony, I use AI to help augment the areas where I need fine tuning. So it's my voice and I've, I use AI to the point where I know how to train my AI tools to. Speak like me, have my voice, I give samples of how I talk.
I mostly talk to it so it knows how I sound. And so I think a lot of people question, oh, did you write this or did ai? And it's like, no, I wrote it, but AI refined it. And I think there's a big difference there because similar to you, I've actually been learning more about writing styles and things like that because I'm.
Evaluating, oh, how is this different than what I wrote? And language and different ways of phrasing things. Because what my priority right now is focusing on how do I share language with others to help them [00:39:00] make sense of what they're experiencing. As a human, and that is really hard to land if you don't speak the language that everybody else speaks, where it can resonate, right where it makes sense.
And oftentimes because I've been in this for so deep for five years, sometimes I talk about things and I'm like, wait a second, this person has no idea what a nervous system is. And then you start to understand, wait, I need to take a step back and simplify this. Not because I'm trying to dumb it down, but just because I want to create.
The same entry for everybody. And to me that's the universal design that we were talking about. How do we get to the point where everybody can enter the space? And be able to get to the same outcome. And so I see ai, I'm a positive AI person. I, I think AI can do tremendous things for humans, but it has to be back to the stabilization question, how we stabilizing humans.
So they actually are, have the capacity to use AI properly. There are people who don't know how to [00:40:00] use ai. They come in and it gets. So frustrated, and then they're like, wait a second. It's not doing what I want it to do. And then maybe they abandon it or have a negative sort of opinion of it. And I think that's just like everything else when it comes to change, how are we thinking about preparing ourselves that readiness factor?
So that we're ready for what AI has to offer us and is it just learning more about it? And a lot of people are so excited about ai, they jump right in and they're spinning the wheels going, this is not as powerful as I thought it was. And so I think this applies to individuals, applies to teams and applies to organizations.
Everybody who is thinking about ai. When you're thinking about, about adopting an AI tool, how are you preparing the human. To receive that tool, to be able to implement it, to be able to use it effectively. And so I think that is, um, kind of my take on ai. I hope that answered the question.
Ryan Hill: I'm gonna jump in on this because like [00:41:00] you both described, use cases for yourselves for AI that are very much aligned with.
Accommodations. But I wanna get back to what Anthony said at the end of that universal design discussion where we need to be cognizant of, of that line between accommodation and enablement. And I think that's where, when you're now inter ai, when you see people like myself who are, when AI cautious optimists, I would say I'm, I'm excited about using it as an augmenting empowering tool for people, but I'm worried about over-reliance.
On it. Uh, and 'cause we can see like it is a flawed system and if you are relying on it without checking it, like you are gonna get yourself in hot water. So I think the way you both describe using it is you're using it as a tool to help accommodate for areas that you need it. And that's what I like to see.
I, that's about the only way I can think of using it for myself right now because I still like to take too much pride in my [00:42:00] own organic work, but sometimes I just need. That seed starter to get the ball rolling. Especially with writing, you know, I need, I know what I wanna say, but I dunno how to say it the right way.
So I describe it terribly and then AI gives me some pretty words and then I, that's all I need is that first sentence or two, and then I've got it. Versus people that are relying solely on ai that's now enablement. And I think that's where you see disparity in the studies, right? Oh, they don't retain anything.
You're right. 'cause they're not doing any of the work. They're copying and pasting. So what is there to retain versus someone that's using a tool like Grammarly, right? They're like, oh, okay, I gotta make this a quick edit on. It's still your work, your content when you're just modifying some maybe syntax or punctuation or whatnot, right?
That's a much different use case. Um, so I think, again, AI is designed by humans, so it's still subject to some of the flaws of humans, and that is not fully understanding the need to. Self inhibit so we don't cross over into the enablement [00:43:00] category.
Yush Sztalkoper: Ryan, I love what you surfaced there because I think that comes back to the readiness, the stabilization conversation.
How are we preparing humans to know how to use it for. Their own purposes, and I think that the people who are going in and utilizing it as kind of a blanket tool, like for everything and then copy and pasting, I think we all know by now, if you're going to use AI to help you write, you need to refine it until it reflects your voice and people will know if it's your voice or not, because.
Authenticity shines through. And so it's something I've had to learn. I pretty early on, I got so excited about AI and I'm like, oh my gosh, I have somebody writing my ghost writer, yay. And then I was like, wait a second. This isn't really my voice. And I keep refining. But now I've gotten to a point, like I said, I've been able to train it because I know exactly what my language is, what my tone is, what my voice is, all these things.
And so that's the difference between user who really understands and has the capacity. And [00:44:00] you guys all know there are some. Really heartbreaking stories in the news about especially young adults who are not cognitively developed enough to be able to discern between reality and machine and and isn't able to make these decisions that should be human centered and instead they rely on AI too much.
As somebody who's giving advice and as the outcome is heartbreaking and is tragic, and so the way I think about it, Ryan, is that people need to understand how to use it. But if people don't have the capacity, if they don't have this clarity in who they are and what the difference is in what this AI tool offers and what it doesn't, they are going to have a very different experience with ai.
And I think that's. My biggest concern, right? There are so many other concerns, but that's my biggest concern, is that AI gets in the wrong hands and it's misused [00:45:00] for intentionally or unintentionally. And so I think that's why human capacity is so important and nervous system safety and people who have clarity and understand who they are and know why they're doing what they're doing is that they come into this utilizing it as a tool.
To support them and help them and not something that they depend on and where they start to lose their sense of self.
Anthony Vade: So, beautifully put, and uh, something we've said many times on this podcast is it starts and ends with the human. And we as a species love our tools. It's what made us what we are from hand axes to artificial intelligence.
We've had this series of tools that have enabled us as a species to thrive and arguably dominate. This planet in ways that no other species has been able to do, but they are just that. They are just a tool and they can be misused and misunderstood. Shout out to Henry Catino Mason. Check out our episode with him early [00:46:00] in season one, where we talked about AI and the rise of ai.
And one thing I took from that conversation that we had was this, it's, it really, it is, it is a human endeavor that we're in here and we need to keep an eye on each other. We need to support each other, and we need to catch those individuals who may fall prey. To the tool in a way that can have massive impacts, not just on the individual, but a, a society as a, as a whole.
We have rapidly come to the end of this episode. That could have been a six hour marathon and I, I kind of wish it would, but we're not gonna do that to our listeners. We're gonna have your back. Instead, and we're going to deep dive into some of these other topics on a future episode, but as we so often do, we finish these with a call to action because ideas are great, concepts are great, prototypes are fun.
But if we don't take massive action, then it's just been a conversation. So I'm gonna start with, I'm gonna start with Tahira. We're gonna go to Ryan, we're going head to, and then I'll close us out with our [00:47:00] call to actions.
Tahira Endean: My call to action is for us to all be looking at designing from the outside in. I think that, um, that was really beautifully said.
So designing from the edges and considering all we don't have a choice. Ryan, what's your call to action?
Ryan Hill: Well, mine might be maybe too specific to myself or people like myself, but, uh, maybe be aware of, uh, when what you're asking for. Is is teetering on the brink of crossing over from accommodation to enablement because it's human.
And I've been guilty of, I think we all have, where we just, especially when things get a little bit harder, we're at closer to our capacity. It's easy to take the mile when we're given the inch, and we have to think about what that does, not just to our future requests, but then to those who are also requesting accommodation around us.
So just something to be reflective of.
Anthony Vade: And yours, what? What was your call to action for our listeners?
Yush Sztalkoper: I have so many, but today I think I'll just wrap it up by saying, I really think it's about pausing instead of adding more, [00:48:00] think about. Asking, what do your humans need and are they ready? And how do you prepare them for what's to come?
And that to me is the only way to ensure sustainable change. Um, because that's, we're talking about humans. Doing this work and it has to work long term for humans.
Anthony Vade: And what a perfect way to finish this episode. My call to action's the same that I give you every episode. Head on over to strategy table.co.
Join this conversation, subscribe like, and share because this is a very important conversation. For us to have with the wider community. It can't start and finish here by listening to this podcast. So spark this conversation, like how I incorporated the name. There we are starting something and it requires your effort as well as a listener.
So please share this with your community. Join the conversation, join us at the strategy table. We'd love to hear from you as well. And uh, we'd like to thank you, USH, for joining us. Sparking this important conversation. Uh, we are definitely gonna [00:49:00] reconnect with you very soon and continue this 'cause we are as committed as you are to making these changes happen in the world.
We thank you for your efforts and your contributions to this movement and we thank you for joining us. And thank you to our listeners for joining us on another episode of Accessible Disruption.
Yush Sztalkoper: Thank you so much for having me.
Podcast Host (Mike): Accessible Disruption is written and spoken by Tahir and Dean, Ryan Hill and Anthony Vade. All content is developed in collaboration with the team at Strategy Table Podcast production by Experience Design Change, Inc. An association with the change lead network. Find more information@strategytable.co.