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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
185. Simon Amaya Price
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[00:00:00] Simon: When I talk to a lot of parents and when I talk to a lot of kids my age, one of the consistent things that I find to be true of kids who are really well adjusted is that they have made a lot of really stupid mistakes and they have learned from 'em. And those who haven't done that are oftentimes not in a good place.
[00:00:18] Simon: I've noticed that a lot of the kids who are still stuck in the trans identity haven't made a lot of really stupid mistakes and learned from 'em. And that actually, and this is a very counterintuitive and scary thing, that I think if [00:00:30] the parents give the kid the ability to go and make a really stupid mistake and go learn the hard way, that that kid will say, well, you know, maybe there are more important things in life than my gender identity.
[00:00:41] Simon: And so this is why I encourage parents to take their kids on adventures. You must be some kind of therapist
[00:00:52] Stephanie: today. My guest is Simon Amaya Price. He is a 21-year-old D sister, writer and speaker fighting gender ideology. [00:01:00] Simon came out as transgender at 14, but Desisted after three years. He's now the outreach and events lead at the LGB Courage Coalition and a senior Fellow at Do No Harm. Simon, welcome. It's great to have you.
[00:01:13] Simon: Thanks for having me.
[00:01:14] Stephanie: So I'm really glad that we, uh, finally get a chance to speak. I think your story is very telling about a particular cultural moment. Um, as you've been emerging into the scene, getting out [00:01:30] there and talking to people about gender ideology, I think it's easy to recognize a, a very bright young man capable of critical thinking, and I know many parents look up to you and appreciate, um, your eloquent perspective on things.
[00:01:44] Stephanie: So today I want to gain perspective into what it's like to be 21 growing up in this era.
[00:01:53] Simon: For me right now, being 21, um, is. A little bit [00:02:00] scary. And I think that's felt by a lot of my, my age peers, because right now we're kind of coming out of hopefully, um, this period where we had what I see to be a, a pretty totalitarian ideology, um, which is still in the schools, still in the universities, still in the media to a certain extent.
[00:02:24] Simon: Um, which hopefully appears to be on its way out. Um, but then again, [00:02:30] look, the next president could be a Democrat and the Democrats could still be digging their heels in and things could get worse all of a sudden again. Um, so there's that. Uh, and then secondly, uh, you have, I think we're in a period of, of civil strife as a country where especially I would trace it back to, um, the Ban Gioni shooting.
[00:02:52] Simon: Uh, which was what, like two years ago now about, and then that kind of, you know, started [00:03:00] this trend of increasing political violence. Um, I think really kind of culminating more recently in the assassination of Charlie Kirk, who many in my generation looked up to, impacted a lot of young guys especially.
[00:03:16] Simon: Um, and he was, for a lot of guys, kind of a sense of stability, a voice of reason, um, in a similar way to, to Jordan Peterson and Jordan Peterson actually has [00:03:30] been going through some health issues, so he is been a bit absent from the, the scene. Uh, so young men of my generation don't really have great role models to look up to right now, um, in the public eye.
[00:03:41] Simon: And then also one of the issues is the way we were all raised. Generally speaking, we were raised to be, uh, fragile. Um, I am sure you've read the, the coddling of the American Mind, but all of these, [00:04:00] you know, moral busy bodies running every bit of our lives through college and high school and middle school and elementary school saying, well, you, you can't do that because you might get hurt or you might hurt somebody's feelings.
[00:04:13] Simon: And if you do that with kids, and you know, a lot of parents do that, mine luckily did not do that as much as others. Uh, if you do that for an entire kid's life, that kid is going to grow up to be very fragile and unable to, to deal with uncertainty and the chaos we now find ourselves in. [00:04:30] Um, so we're kind of in a very strange moment, um, as a generation.
[00:04:35] Stephanie: I'm glad you brought up Charlie Kirk. I've been wanting to. Set the intention of speaking a few words about him in every interview since the assassination. And I was, I was thinking, as I was getting ready for our conversation, I was wondering what kind of impact he'd had on you. 'cause as, as I was listening to your conversation with Harrison Tinsley on, on his show, by the way, Harrison is a previous guest of this show.[00:05:00]
[00:05:00] Stephanie: You were talking about this moment of finding male peers who were just more kind of normal. Um, not so, you know, they weren't participating in the GSA, um, they were, let's say, right of far left. And you found it refreshing that for the first time in your young life, you had a group of friends you could just disagree with and not, not get into identity politics or, you know, the sort of histrionic unraveling [00:05:30] that we see in political radicals.
[00:05:32] Stephanie: Um, do you feel like Charlie Kirk shaped the culture of groups of young men like that? Did he have an impact on your friend group?
[00:05:41] Simon: Yes, absolutely. Um, that specific friend group, uh, you're talking about, was a FA group of friends I had my first year of college, which unfortunately didn't last very long because we all left.
[00:05:54] Simon: Um, all of us either after that first year or in the second year. Um, [00:06:00] or even before that, because we were all ended up being sick one way or another of the, as you said, histrionic atmosphere of, of the, this very, very far left, uh, college we were at. Um, and then yeah, I think that, yeah, Charlie Kirk was definitely, did, definitely did have an impact on this particular friend group.
[00:06:28] Simon: Um, [00:06:30] and I'd say that now, especially working in the area, I do, I have a lot of friends and colleagues who personally knew Charlie Kirk, and so obviously there was a direct impact right there. And, you know, I I, I've watched his videos here and there and, um, definitely was. Impressed by his ability to, to disagree agreeably.
[00:06:56] Stephanie: Looking back on what you've shared about your [00:07:00] childhood and, and being in this particular cultural moment, I'll just recap some of the kind of bullet points for people who might not have heard your story before. So have in eighth grade you came out to your parents as bisexual, and as we were talking about behind the scenes, this was not one of those stories that we hear about of I'm bisexual, and a week later I'm pansexual and a week later I'm gender queer and a week later I'm trans.
[00:07:24] Stephanie: It wasn't one of those, it wasn't fueled by the GSA propaganda, it [00:07:30] was that you actually were discovering, uh, certain feelings to people of both sexes. So more kind of the, what it meant to come out to one's parents is bisexual in eighth grade, 20 years ago. Um, so, so that seemed more normal. Um, but then within a short period of time.
[00:07:47] Stephanie: You started identifying as trans and you had some of the same background factors that we see in a lot of cases. Um, I think you had mentioned an autism diagnosis at some point. There was a history of bullying [00:08:00] and then there were these, um, that there was a combination of being yourself sexually assaulted and also being accused of sexual assaults.
[00:08:11] Stephanie: And, uh, before we started recording, you were mentioning as, as I think most people are well aware by now, unfortunately, that, uh, many detransition and desist have some kind of sexual assault history. But I think your perspective is particularly interesting as a young man because of that, um, [00:08:30] experience growing up, of being sent this message that at any point.
[00:08:34] Stephanie: Any female could accuse you of sexual misconduct and, and leverage that to hurt you regardless of what her motivations might have been. And in some cases, there, there were other social components to the problems. In your particular story, maybe we'll start there. Do you think that being accused of sexual misconduct fueled, uh, your trans [00:09:00] identity?
[00:09:00] Stephanie: Or, or, or intensified it?
[00:09:02] Simon: Yes. Um, because being accused of sexual misconduct is, is what happened, um, to, cause my friends all of a sudden not talking to me. You know, I, I came into school, um, one day and nobody was talking to me. I was like, Hey, what did I do? Let me know what I did. You know, I'll, I'll apologize if I did something wrong.
[00:09:24] Simon: Well, we can move forward and fix things. And they were all like, you know [00:09:30] what you did and I really didn't. And that I didn't understand that. Um, and I didn't know it at the time, but I was autistic. I was diagnosed when I was 16 that summer. And so, yeah, this, just knowing that I as a man could be accused of sexual assaults and even the people I considered to my, to be my friends, people who I thought [00:10:00] would know me and have kind of a, would give that a grain of salt, um, would believe that was, was shocking.
[00:10:09] Simon: And I looked around and I'm like, well, if I accused a woman of sexual assaults, um, nobody would take that seriously. And, you know, a couple weeks later, after, or or a week, maybe two weeks, if I forgot exactly, um, later after my friends left me, I was sexually assaulted myself. And then I told people and nobody [00:10:30] believed me.
[00:10:31] Simon: And so. I'm in this situation where just from a kind of naive, rational perspective, one could say, well, you know, if I were a woman I wouldn't have been accused and people would believe me. Um, and I would get the help I need if, uh, you know, after having been. Uh, and so I think that was definitely a part of it because when presented with this [00:11:00] idea that one can become a woman that adds more, uh, benefits, let's say to to that option.
[00:11:10] Stephanie: Does your parents know about all this?
[00:11:14] Simon: None at the time, no.
[00:11:18] Stephanie: How long until they found out?
[00:11:22] Simon: I only told them about the sexual me being sexually assaulted, I think like a year, uh, [00:11:30] or so ago. Uh, it took me a long time to come to terms with that and, you know, they, they kind of knew immediately that all my friends had left me and that I was going through a tough time and that something, you know, wasn't going right.
[00:11:47] Simon: Uh, and then the, what precisely happened, and I'll spare the details out of, you know, privacy reasons. Um, the person who, uh, young woman who accused me, [00:12:00] um, I didn't find out that that's what she had said until, when was it? I think it was a year later or maybe it was actually when I reconnected with a friend who I went to the same high school with after I left.
[00:12:18] Simon: So, um, it was much later that even I figured out what happened, so,
[00:12:26] Stephanie: oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, I don't think I'd, I don't think I'd [00:12:30] realized that, but I, I wonder how much parents can learn from an experience like yours, because I think for every, for every boy who is accused of some kind of misconduct from an early age, there are 10 boys watching.
[00:12:49] Simon: Yeah.
[00:12:49] Stephanie: There's a lesson that gets internalized there about how much power girls hold. And, and I can hear the feminist in the comment section [00:13:00] now and uh, and I wanna say that this isn't a black and white either or issue, as you pointed out very well in your interview with Harrison Tinsley. In this country, we, we have the legal principle of innocent until proven guilty, but that's not typically how things work socially.
[00:13:17] Stephanie: And um, it's also very hard, as you said to him, either to completely prove or to completely disprove something like sexual assault. So there are [00:13:30] absolutely errors being made in both directions. Um, victims not being believed and not getting the justice and support they need, but also victims in the sense that you are a victim of, of being wrongfully accused simply because some.
[00:13:46] Stephanie: Young person who's, who's just as naive. I mean, you know, this girl, she was what, eighth? Eighth grader like you. Ninth grade. Ninth grade. I mean, you know, who of us made wise decisions in ninth grade? Yeah. And, and [00:14:00] typically if, if you're in ninth grade and you're looking to figure out how to, um, achieve some status socially, and you learn, oh, this is a weapon I can wield, right?
[00:14:09] Stephanie: All I have to do is say this one thing. And now I get so much sympathy and support and people ra rallying around me and this person who I don't like for whatever reason. And it could be that I'm not even conscious of why I don't like them. It could be I am angry at them because I feel rejected by them, you know?
[00:14:27] Stephanie: But now I, I get to turn the tables of this power [00:14:30] dynamic. Um, so I had imagined that on, on some level. This is going on behind the scenes so much of the time, and it's just one of those factors that drives some boys to feel like it'd be more advantageous to be a girl.
[00:14:46] Simon: Yeah. Um, I also want to clarify my, my previous response because I realize I misspoke the sort of timeline of events.
[00:14:53] Simon: I very quickly after losing my friends found out that's what the allegation was. Um, I [00:15:00] wasn't sure who it came from or the reason it happened, but I knew that was the allegation. It was not until much later that I figured out the reason for the allegation and who precisely spread it. Um, and it was in fact one of the reason, the reasons you listed was it was rejection.
[00:15:19] Simon: And I, I, I think, um, that it's one of those situations where I don't think she really understood why she felt the way she felt. And this was, you know, [00:15:30] in the wake of the Me Too mo movement. Where the approach and kind of balance between, in the conversation around these issues between the two sexes had been shifted very far in favor of women, especially in, you know, a liberal state like Massachusetts, uh, to the, the point where, you know, you're not even in the trust but verify, you know, field, let's [00:16:00] say.
[00:16:01] Simon: Um, and then, yeah, for, for guys, even if you haven't been, um, falsely accused seeing your friend, because every guy I've talked to has either been through it or, or had a friend who was falsely accused. And there are, I, I could give you a whole long list of people. And so one of the reasons that actually, there's so much difficulty in the dating market right now.
[00:16:28] Simon: For guys my age [00:16:30] specifically is that we're afraid that, or I'm, I'm less afraid, but a lot of guys my age are afraid, uh, that if they go up to a girl in a bar and they say, Hey, I think you're pretty, can I buy you a drink? That she will say, you, you're, um, sexually harassing me, or something like that. And that's a very powerful [00:17:00] disincentive, uh, against having healthy relationships with people.
[00:17:04] Stephanie: And I think about what young men are to do with that, right? So there's, there's getting deeper into porn and isolation, the idea that an imaginary girlfriend is better than no girlfriend. And, and now we have this combination of porn and AI chatbots. So there's, there's the, the sexual. Sort of facsimile on the one hand, [00:17:30] and then there's the emotional relational facsimile as well.
[00:17:33] Stephanie: Um, obviously that's not what Charlie Kirk wanted for young men, right? That's not what virtu, that's not what virtuous young men are going to pursue, but I can imagine many of them feeling kind of frozen and without good options. What are you hearing from your friends about what they are doing with this?
[00:17:53] Simon: Yeah, so I am not, uh, friends with a lot of guys my age right now, [00:18:00] uh, just because we're kind of, I'm at a very different place in my life than a lot of guys my age. Um, but the guys who are a little bit older than me, who, who are my friends, um, one of them, my, my closest friend, uh, who's, who's a guy, um, he, he's just been focusing entirely on his work because he's getting results and he's like, you know, if somebody comes along, somebody comes along, but I'm not.
[00:18:27] Simon: I'm not going to waste my time [00:18:30] doing something, which might make things worse for me in the end. Um, I have another friend who has a girlfriend that he met, and this is a very attractive guy who ran track in college and, you know, he's top 1%, let's say. Um, and so he had no trouble. Uh, but you know, if I, I think back to the, the guys I knew, uh, at Berkeley in undergrad, um, a lot of them [00:19:00] were, well, there's the extra layer of their musicians, so that makes things interesting.
[00:19:07] Simon: But a lot of them had really given up. A lot of them there. There are a whole bunch of different behaviors that emerge from this, and it's fascinating from kind of an anthropological point of view where one of the things that happens is you have this group of guys who have figured out that, whoa, if I pretend to be as woke as the girls, that girls will like me [00:19:30] because I'm the only guy who's as vocal as I am.
[00:19:35] Simon: And there are these situations where I, I would know a guy and all of a sudden he'd come in wearing a, like a kefi and like all the pins and everything. And I'd think in my head, you know, I wonder, I wonder who he met and. So it's, it's like that's, that's one of the dynamics that [00:20:00] happens and, um, that's not at all healthy or good.
[00:20:04] Simon: Um, and then there's also the, you know, of course retreating from society with, with the porn and, and AI chatbots. And, and I don't know if you saw, um, Musk's AI company Grok came out with, I think it, it's called Annie, which is a, uh, a ai um, chatbot with a 3D model of a [00:20:30] attractive anime style young woman, um, whose clothes you can take off.
[00:20:37] Simon: And I think that's not great for young men's mental health or development. So there's that too. And then there are a lot of guys who are more on the conservative side. Who live in places that are not Massachusetts, who [00:21:00] find other young, conservative women. And they're actually doing pretty well, I must say.
[00:21:04] Simon: Uh, you know, when I went to Charlie Kirk's funeral, I saw a lot of young men and young women who were, who were getting along well and seemed to be adjusted and, and groomed and dressed well. Uh, which is the first time I had seen more than like five people my age who would fit that description in the same place.
[00:21:22] Simon: Uh, so yeah, there was definitely sort of a, a bi bifurcation in, in levels of [00:21:30] success in my generation where I would say that most of my generation is doing really, really terribly. And for those in my generation who are doing well, they're doing really, really well.
[00:21:41] Stephanie: I can imagine the parents are eager for your advice.
[00:21:44] Stephanie: I know you've been doing more parent coaching lately, at, which is also my full-time job outside of this podcast as well, and. You know, as I'm, I'm sure at times as a deister, you get framed as [00:22:00] sort of one of the lucky ones, um, that you, you know, escaped with your bodily integrity intact. And, um, we could certainly have a conversation about the, the harms of social transition, what gets lost, um, in that time.
[00:22:14] Stephanie: I don't know if you'd be interested in talking about that, but I'm also thinking about how prior to your desistance, there was probably a time that your parents were really scared about, uh, you going down a medical pathway. [00:22:30] And I think that you'd said pretty early on after announcing a trans identity that you did want those medical interventions.
[00:22:37] Stephanie: So I can imagine the parents in the audience are very eager to hear what you think your parents did particularly well, what you think they could have done better, um, to. To prevent you from going down that path.
[00:22:54] Simon: Yeah. Um, this is always a bit of a loaded question in, in the, the, you [00:23:00] know, million dollar question where if you get the answer to that, you know, a lot of people will give you a lot of money.
[00:23:07] Simon: Uh, I would say, I want to emphasize first of all that yeah, a lot of it was genuinely luck. Um, 100% a series of events happened. Um, kind of the way I am. I oftentimes, uh, you put me in any room and I will be the one guy who disagrees. Um, and that makes friends and also foes, [00:23:30] um, and generally foes with people.
[00:23:32] Simon: Uh, you would not wanna spend time around and generally friends with people who I, I actually quite enjoy spending time around. Um, or would want to be like, uh, is another way to put that. And then, yeah, so I think the, there are two things that my parents did really well. One is when I was 15 or 14, you know, around my 15th birthday, I could probably look in my calendar and find the specific [00:24:00] date.
[00:24:00] Simon: But anyways, um, I was in my pediatrician's office. I was explaining to my pediatrician that I was feeling gender dysphoria and, you know, my dad wast affirming me and all these different sorts of things. And my pediatrician said in front of my dad, uh, he asked my dad in front of me, would you like a dead son or a living daughter?
[00:24:21] Simon: Now my dad went ape shit on him, and that is the clinical term. Uh, and he, this doctor [00:24:30] actually quit like a year later. And I like to think, I like to think that we had something to do with it. Um, so I, I tell that story because my parents set very clear boundaries of, no, you're not medicalizing. Um, and, you know, I was.
[00:24:47] Simon: 1415 at the time. And that's a very reasonable thing to be, be doing. And I, I think part of the thing is, I didn't know it at the time, but there was a legitimate threat of, uh, [00:25:00] DCF, department of Children and Families, I think, um, in Massachusetts actually taking me away from my parents because they refused to affirm me.
[00:25:07] Simon: I didn't know that at the time. It wasn't very well known. Uh, but that might, that was the case and my dad knew it, and that's very scary. Um, so, right, this might be a little bit different and a lot of other people didn't know that because this was all the way back in like 2019, right before COVID. So right before literally the three times increase in transgender [00:25:30] identification in my, my, um, generation.
[00:25:33] Simon: And then the second thing, uh, they did really well is they gave me a pretty long leash. So they let me go to college two years early. Live away from home and gallivant around and do my, make a lot of really stupid mistakes and actually making a lot of really stupid mistakes is how you figure out who you are.
[00:25:58] Simon: And I [00:26:00] think that, you know, when I talk to a lot of parents and when I talk to a lot of kids my age, one of the consistent things that I find to be true of kids who are really well adjusted is that they have made a lot of really stupid mistakes and they have learned from them. And those who haven't done that are oftentimes not in a good place.
[00:26:23] Simon: And I've noticed that a lot of the kids who are still stuck in the trans identity haven't made a [00:26:30] lot of really stupid mistakes and learned from them. And that actually, um, and this is, it's a very counterintuitive and scary thing that I, I think that if the parents give the. The kid, the ability to go and make a really stupid mistake and go learn the hard way that that kid will say, well, you know, maybe there are more important things in life than, than my gender identity.
[00:26:54] Simon: Um, and so this is why I encourage parents to, to take their kids on adventures [00:27:00] and I mean, adventures in the most broad way I am. Like you, you know, you could go hiking, you could go camping, you could go to a third world country. Um, because those are new, different situations that take you outta the context you're in.
[00:27:11] Simon: So there's, you know, some, some brain neuroplasticity going on there. And then there's also the level of that puts you in situations where you're more likely to make really stupid mistakes. And that could be anything from forgetting the, the lighter and having to find the right rocks [00:27:30] to start a fire. Um, or that could be, um.
[00:27:35] Simon: Deciding for some reason to live in a house with eight women your age, um, which is Yes. A thing I have heard, uh, of a kid actually doing, uh, which a, a young, a young man doing who's trans identified, which is going to be interesting to see, um, hear, hear about that.
[00:27:58] Stephanie: I completely agree and I'm, I'm [00:28:00] glad to hear you talk about it.
[00:28:01] Stephanie: You know, you mentioned Jonathan Het and he has this saying of being overprotected in the real world and underprotected in the virtual world. And I talk a lot in my course and in my coaching about natural consequences. And it's true. A lot of the kids of the parents I talk to are, are pretty sheltered, even from age appropriate responsibilities and natural consequences of their actions.
[00:28:25] Stephanie: And there's usually. Some kind of rationalization or, or many levels of [00:28:30] rationalization piled up. It could be, well, he is working so hard in school, or she's doing all these extracurriculars and so we wanna make her life easier by not giving her any chores on top of that. And it's like, okay, but you know, someday she's gonna have to, um, have a life in which she goes to work and the gym and walks the dog and go, you know, like, so we're, we're trying to prepare kids for an adulthood in the real world, not a [00:29:00] life of having things handed to them.
[00:29:01] Stephanie: Right? Yes. And also when their lives are, are that easy, uh, it also kind of puts their, how do I put this, their threshold for inconvenience is like, like it just needs to be reset. Yeah. Um. And, and, and it's so tough when parents have spent years not allowing for those small mistakes [00:29:30] and age appropriate responsibilities and natural consequences.
[00:29:33] Stephanie: When, when you avoid those for years, it just gets exponentially harder with time. And then you have this 18-year-old who's never experienced the consequences of any actions. I mean, not even like, you know, if you, if you forget to do your laundry on Sunday, you're not gonna have any clean underwear to wear at a school on Monday.
[00:29:54] Stephanie: Like, your kids need to experience that level of inconvenience. They need to, you know, just, [00:30:00] and that's also how life feels real to us, right? When we're dealing with material consequences, like being hot or being cold because you didn't think to dress appropriately or pack appropriately for the situation.
[00:30:13] Stephanie: I mean, just even those things in the body. Make things feel real, combined with knowing that you can survive, knowing that you can get through. Um, like I'm thinking about, you know, our kids and we definitely have one that absolutely has to [00:30:30] learn from experience and I recognize it 'cause I'm the same sort of person.
[00:30:34] Stephanie: So when his older brother tries to tell him, oh, don't do it this way, that doesn't work, I'm like, Hmm. Just let him figure it out for himself. He needs to learn it through his own hands and eyes, just like you learned it. Right? Um, and, and we try to give him natural consequences and it's just like, you know, we'll tell him.
[00:30:55] Stephanie: Please don't, please watch out around that stream. And we're on a hike and [00:31:00] you know, lo and behold, eventually his feet are wet and then, you know, he has to do the remaining three miles of the hike with wet shoes. And, and, you know, through that experience, he's learning one, there are consequences to my actions, but two, I can, I can survive it.
[00:31:16] Stephanie: And it's my attitude that determines whether I'm still able to enjoy those three miles that I'm hiking with wet feet. And so it's a combination of things that builds, as I explained in my course, identity, confidence, and competence, which are really what [00:31:30] so many of these kids are looking for.
[00:31:32] Simon: Yeah, no, they're looking for something in a hard time they can hold onto and looking for that, you know, a lot of things can appear to fill that hole or a lot of things can fill that whole suboptimally and cause other problems.
[00:31:50] Simon: Um, and, and trans is one of those things. But I think the best thing is to be able to look back at your [00:32:00] experience and say, right now is way easier than this thing that happened a couple years ago. Uh, and I got through that, so I'm gonna be fine this time around. Um, yeah, but I, I think you, this is, this is a very important thing to bring up.
[00:32:18] Simon: Um, one of the things, my, my mom, so I, I, I live in Boston and the best I, I like to tell, say, say that uh, the best thing about Boston is [00:32:30] complaining about Boston. And so, in my family, at least one of the ways, uh, and this is like a New England cultural thing, is one of the ways, uh, that we communicate and bond is complaining about things.
[00:32:47] Simon: Which people in the South do not understand at all. I have discovered and take it very personally when you complain about anything ever. Um, but, um, my [00:33:00] mom will say this thing where she'll say, Hey Simon, can you clean up the kitchen? And be like, well, I have a call. And my mom says, well, I have a call too.
[00:33:13] Simon: And we had a conversation, we've had conversations in the past where, you know, my mom, my mom's kind of the main bread runner of the household, and, and she, uh, you know, she's like the head chief human resources officer at some [00:33:30] biopharmaceutical company. And she, at the same time, is able to work out and sing flamenco and spend time with her husband and her kids.
[00:33:41] Simon: I. And whenever I complain about not having enough time to do something, she says, well, think about what it would like, be like to be me. Um, and that's one of those things where I see how [00:34:00] much she works and how hard she works, and there's a level of respect I've gained for that. And that's just a great way to have some perspective.
[00:34:07] Simon: Um, and I, I think a lot of kids, um, maybe not the best way to communicate that to a kid, but a lot of kids need to understand that, uh, sort of thing. And then as well, um, my, my, my, my, my parents haven't always been perfect about the natural consequences thing, but have gotten better over time. Like, for [00:34:30] example, one of the things my parents did when I was younger is they would let me play outside unsupervised, um, with friends.
[00:34:37] Simon: Which is something that parents are horrified by now. Um, and so I would go out and run around and do stupid things and, you know, I would wear boots without socks and get blisters on the back of my heels. And then, you know, I haven't worn boots without so sense. And, you know, I, I remember coming back [00:35:00] and my dad said, you know, uh, I, I didn't say anything because, but I, I knew this would happen.
[00:35:05] Simon: And I said, well, why didn't you say anything? And he said, well, you needed to learn it from experience. And so all of these just like little things, um, add up over time. And secondly, uh, the difference between an inconvenience, a challenge, and a trauma. This is going to be a very controversial statement, is how you look at it.[00:35:30]
[00:35:30] Simon: Um, one of the things that you see is. Different people in the same situation will find some things traumatic and others will not. And in every study I've read on the subject, the consistent thing that holds all the people together in the group who do not see, um, the thing as traumatic is they see it not as something happening to them, but as a challenge to [00:36:00] overcome.
[00:36:01] Simon: And a lot of kids are kind of being taught to be stuck in, you know, either this thing is happening to me, which is true of trauma and true of inconvenience, to be fair. Um, instead of looking at, you know, this is how it is and this is something I can, uh, something to overcome. And you might not know how to overcome it, but that's, you know, you, you figure it out.
[00:36:21] Simon: You take, you take it the first step, you know, the smallest possible step that's, that's doable right now towards it. And, and eventually you get to the end. [00:36:30] That's something, when you first start it, you're, you're scared. I was scared when I realized that at every new challenge I don't, I don't know how I'm going to get out of this situation.
[00:36:42] Simon: Uh, but if you do it enough times, then you build that confidence and you know that when you're confronted with chaos and uncertainty and everything going wrong, you're like, I don't know how I wanna figure this out, but I know that I'm gonna figure it out.
[00:36:56] Stephanie: So I wanna talk about the long leash, double bind.[00:37:00]
[00:37:00] Stephanie: 'cause I think you have a really important point with the long leash, but some of the pushback I get from parents when we talk about allowing kids to experience natural consequences and practice asserting their independence is if the kid is already bought into the trans identity at this point, one of the fears that commonly comes up for parents is if I.
[00:37:29] Stephanie: Help [00:37:30] them develop life skills, then they will use those skills to further their transition. So parents end up in this double bind where in some ways they are tempted to sabotage their kid's growth, right? They, they wanna keep the kid dependent because it's like, well, you know, if he still doesn't know how to make his own appointments and get himself there, then he won't be making gender affirming care appointments and getting himself there.
[00:37:56] Stephanie: So I'm just not gonna teach him that skill, or I'm not gonna, [00:38:00] um, leave, leave him that, as you would call it, long leash. I'm curious how you would respond to that.
[00:38:06] Simon: Yeah, so I, I've had parents tell me that and, and be worried about that. And it's like, I think there, I think in the specific example there, uh, if, if you're in a situation where you can teach your kid, you have the option of teaching your kid how to make an appointment.
[00:38:24] Simon: Don't, don't, you don't need to teach your kid how to make an appointment if you know they're about to use it to do [00:38:30] that. I'm not going to recommend that. So with that caveat, I think that the general idea is completely backwards. Um, the reason for that is, uh, a lot of transgender identification comes from the underdevelopment and lack of life skills.
[00:38:49] Simon: I would point at, uh, a couple in particular, and the, these are are ones I particularly, um, find to be consistent between, uh, trans-identified, uh, youth, [00:39:00] um, is it's a lot of social emotional skills. A lot of these kids are autistic and a lot of them literally need a chart which says the name of an emotion, the generalized reason why you might be feeling that emotion, what that emotion tells you to do, and they need to to practice.
[00:39:23] Simon: Sitting there and asking, what am I feeling? And then pinpointing the, the [00:39:30] physical sensation of the feeling and trying to figure out, okay, I feel this. What is it telling me to do? Why am I feeling it? What's the name of the emotion? They need to practice that because they've been, even the ones who aren't autistic, they've been so dissociated looking at a phone or an iPad or a computer, um, all day, every day, that they don't sit with themselves and learn how to have that ability to have that interception.
[00:39:58] Simon: It's like we have a whole [00:40:00] generation who's suffering from Alexia or Thia rather. Um, Thia would be cancer. Thia is the, the, uh, difficulty of sensing one's own internal, uh, internal emotional state. So that's one of the life skills. That is a life skill. Um. What happens with with trans-identified kids is they can feel, they can tell, oh, I feel bad, and they can tell, oh, I feel good.
[00:40:26] Simon: And when they do something that makes them feel good, [00:40:30] they're going to keep doing the thing that makes them feel good and, and vice versa. And do you know what feels good? Social affirmation? Do you know what feels good? Feeling like you have a plan for the future and steps to take. What feels bad in the moment is not having clear steps, not having social affirmation and feeling you're all, all on your own trying to figure out the great mysteries of life.
[00:40:56] Simon: And so that, that's, that's one of the things. I think [00:41:00] another thing is that a lot of these kids, even if they're not autistic, really don't know how to socialize. And one of the, the simplest, you know, kind of paradigms of looking at social interaction that I, I encourage, uh, parents and kids to learn is what I call match plus one, where basically, you know, if you're having, like let's say you're in class and you know, your, your classmate says, good morning to you.
[00:41:28] Simon: You started at zero [00:41:30] because he didn't say anything. Now he is at like level one of communication and you say Good morning back. So you're matching him and then you say, how are you doing today? So you're adding another level. And then if he then tells, says, you know, I'm doing all right, how are you? Then he's matching you.
[00:41:47] Simon: Now this kind of continues through conversations and you can tell if somebody doesn't match you. They might not be interested in the conversation, something else might be going on. They might be distracted, [00:42:00] et cetera. Uh, but if they're matching you or they're match plus one and you, that tells you that they're interested in the conversation and would like to continue having the conversation.
[00:42:09] Simon: And this generally works. And I, I remember I learned about this when I was like 16 or 17 for the first time. And I was like, huh, wow. Now I have an algorithm to kind of approach social, um, uh, interactions. And that made a really big immediate difference in my life and allowed me to [00:42:30] have friendships with people I wouldn't be able to have friendships with otherwise.
[00:42:37] Simon: And so a lot of my friendships as well led me to then have other perspectives and learn other things. And it has a snowball effect. And, you know, I, things happened and eventually, you know, I resisted, but there was a lot of, a lot of different things going on there. But, um, yeah, life skills are the things that get you out of cults.[00:43:00]
[00:43:00] Stephanie: So it sounds like to summarize your advice to parents in these situations, and, and I think I would agree with this, that yes, if there's a skill that really directly pertains to the steps they need to take to proceed with their medicalization wishes, maybe don't focus on those skills right now. But in general, we need to allow these kids and, and encourage them to have the experiences necessary to grow into full fledged confident human beings with problem solving skills.
[00:43:29] Stephanie: [00:43:30] And then I hear you describing some of the specific types of help that autistic kids need. And on that note, I, I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but you don't particularly come across as autistic. And I'm wondering, based on what you just described, if you feel like that's because you've always been.
[00:43:51] Stephanie: At that, you know, high functioning, kind of, you know, barely perceptible level, or if you feel like you've actively worked on these things that [00:44:00] you're describing so that you are more fluid and natural in social interactions.
[00:44:05] Simon: No, I've, I've worked really, really hard for years, uh, on, on becoming kind of more fluid and natural in, in social, uh, situations.
[00:44:14] Simon: Uh, I, I mean, I was always, always high functioning. Um, but, you know, I'm still a bit of a lecturer. I've been giving, giving lectures since I was, um, six years old. Uh, and in middle school they called me the white Neil deGrasse Tyson because I gave people [00:44:30] science even when they really didn't wanna hear the science facts.
[00:44:36] Stephanie: Okay. I mean, and, and so that gets at this, you know, the way that affirmation has bled into everything and now there's neurodiversity affirming care and things like this, and you know this. Do you have something to say about that? Oh,
[00:44:52] Simon: I have, I have something to say about that. So I had, um, a therapist, uh, a, a conversation with a therapist, uh, or a therapist [00:45:00] in training.
[00:45:00] Simon: I think I forgot what she was, what thing she was in training for, um, uh, Naomi Ups best. You probably talked. Oh, yeah. I had had
[00:45:07] Stephanie: asked you to connect me with her right before she blew up.
[00:45:09] Simon: Yep.
[00:45:10] Stephanie: We had some back and forth, but it didn't work out to get her on the show. Yeah. But yeah, please. And, and her, by the way, for anyone who's not heard her name before, just look her up.
[00:45:17] Stephanie: Naomi Epps best. She's done some incredible whistle blowing on this Yes. Current state of therapy training. Please go ahead. Yeah,
[00:45:22] Simon: she was at, uh, Santa Clara University, which is, I think nominally a Christian university, but not really in practice. [00:45:30] Um. I'm not a Christian, so you know, who am I to judge? But, you know, uh, you might be
[00:45:37] Stephanie: more Christian than the Christian University.
[00:45:41] Simon: Uh, so yeah, she asked me, you know, is it that she l uh, so she learned apparently that it was wrong to teach autistic people social skills because that was, you know, a erasing their [00:46:00] autistic ness. And she asked me, is it appropriate to teach autistic people or autistic kids social skills? And I, I asked her, what the hell kind of question is that?
[00:46:11] Simon: Of course, that's what they need. And so we, this is part of like the kind of the woke pus, if you will. Uh, the woke ideological complex as I would call it in a scientific paper if I were to write one. Um, where. Everything's turned into an identity. And [00:46:30] anything you do to make an identity less weak or or less strong and less unique rather, um, is seen as actively antagonistic and wrong.
[00:46:40] Simon: So in this case, if you're giving an autistic kid or an autistic adult, the help they need to be a functional, a functioning member of society, they're going to end up seeming less autistic. So that's seen as a bad thing, uh, whi, which is insane to be frank. [00:47:00] Uh, so you, you have the situation where you have a lot of so-called therapists where all they do is kind of listen to their client talk and then say, yes, you're right.
[00:47:09] Simon: Uh, you, you should be proud of, of who you are and, you know, all these different sorts of things. And that's really not helpful when you're a very dysfunctional human being, as I once was, and as as many, you know, young autistic people are.
[00:47:23] Stephanie: So I have an idea, 'cause I, I see how this lights a fire in you and it lights a fire in me too.
[00:47:29] Stephanie: I'm, I'm thinking [00:47:30] about how the majority of the people saying these things are not only encouraging people to remain disabled, but they're not the ones paying the price for that. They're not the parents who will be taking care of these disabled young adults for the rest of their lives. Um, they're really, uh, shirking the burden and.
[00:47:56] Stephanie: I think insulting the, the reality of the struggle, [00:48:00] uh, that this provi, that this presents for so many families. And then we can, you know, we have a conversation with someone like you, who, I don't think anyone is going to clock you as autistic based on a conversation like this.
[00:48:13] Simon: There are some people, there are some people.
[00:48:16] Simon: If you know what you're looking for, you know.
[00:48:18] Stephanie: Well, I mean, by the same measure, I could also be clocked as autistic. 'cause I'm also quirky and high iq. And I love to, you know, go Sure. Talk about my special interests. But like, but I'm [00:48:30] high functioning. You're high functioning. Like there's, nobody's gonna listen to a conversation with you and think, oh yeah, here's someone who's gonna face significant barriers based on how different his brain is.
[00:48:42] Stephanie: Yeah. He's gonna really struggle in life. No, like I, one of the first things I said to you when we met today, I was like, you're gonna make it, you know, like you're gonna be okay. Um, and. And so, uh, to, to spite. To spite these folks, um, with [00:49:00] their oppressive beliefs that want to keep people disabled rather than giving them the skills to thrive.
[00:49:07] Stephanie: I say we focus the rest of our conversation on identifying tools like Match plus one. For example, okay. That, that, um, can actually benefit some of these teens. So why don't we take a break and when we come back, we'll, we'll go through what our advice is between you and me for parents of high functioning, autistic, quirky teens.
[00:49:26] Stephanie: What do you think? Totally sounds good to me.
[00:49:28] Simon: Okay.
[00:49:29] Stephanie: Many of you [00:49:30] listening to this show are concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender insanity and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction. I developed ROGD repair as a resource. For parents just like you.
[00:49:44] Stephanie: It's a self-paced online course and community that will teach you the psychology concept and communication tools. The families I've consulted with have found most helpful in understanding and getting through to their children even when they're adults. [00:50:00] Visit r gd repair.com to learn more about the program and use promo code some therapist 2025 at checkout to take 50% off your first month.
[00:50:11] Stephanie: That's ROGD repair.com. So you had described this concept of match plus one, which really responds to the autistic person's need for structured frameworks broken down in ways that their logical mind [00:50:30] can understand. Uh, it's been my personal and professional experience that when people have high functioning autism or what used to be called Asperger's, that they.
[00:50:41] Stephanie: Often benefit from and crave these frameworks and can actually become very skilled at psychology and, uh, understanding social behavior when they make a conscious decision to study these things and, and find these frameworks and apply them. So I like [00:51:00] the match plus one. 'cause it's, it's something that you can remember and it's like, oh, okay, so I mirror and then I add something and then I see if they're gonna mirror me or, yeah.
[00:51:10] Stephanie: It's, it's like almost like a decision tree that they can follow. And I think you also made the connection that. One reason that a lot of these kids with autistic traits are drawn into trans ideology is 'cause it gives them some of that same structure. It gives them a language for describing why they're suffering, right?
[00:51:29] Stephanie: You [00:51:30] talked about feeling good or feeling bad. And so that gets put into the language of, I'm experiencing gender dysphoria and I wanna experience euphoria. We know that because of these kids' Alexathymia, which you named, that every experience they have can get fed into this obsessive compulsive thought loop of it means I'm trans down to I have a stomach ache.
[00:51:51] Stephanie: It must be because I'm trans. So everything gets rationalized this way and it gives them this structure. Another way that I explain this to parents, and this isn't just for, [00:52:00] uh, parents of autistic kids, is I'll say to the moms, Hey, you remember those teen girl magazines that we read when we were growing up?
[00:52:07] Stephanie: Um, you know, back before the internet we had Teen and 17 and these magazines and they had these quizzes. That were basically like pop psychology, fab, junk science. But as a teen girl, you love this stuff that's like, what color is your aura? Or you know, what, uh, color clothing should you wear based on your [00:52:30] astrology sign or, you know, made up like personality test stuff.
[00:52:34] Stephanie: Right. And teen girls love this stuff.
[00:52:37] Simon: Now we have Buzzfeed quizzes.
[00:52:39] Stephanie: Oh yeah. Yeah. So, um, for, for the, for the younger, for the younger folks out there, but since most of my clients are in their fifties and sixties, yeah. You know, I talk about the Teen Girl magazines and, and I say, you remember how we loved that stuff as young girls?
[00:52:53] Stephanie: Not, not because it's, you know, genuinely fascinating psychological literature, but because [00:53:00] when adolescents are in this stage of developing all these social and emotional capacities, their brains are growing so rapidly. It's nice to have some kind of framework to latch onto, a way to define yourself and a way to connect to other people, and to understand other people.
[00:53:12] Stephanie: So with that being said, it's then helpful to recognize what these people really need and fulfill some of those needs outside of gender ideology. And I think the trap for parents is that sometimes parents can also be very literal, right? So the kid gets caught in [00:53:30] their cycle of everything means I'm actually a boy, or everything means I'm actually a girl.
[00:53:35] Stephanie: Then the parents argue with that and it turns into a polarizing fight. No, you're not right. Or, I wanna do this. No, you're not gonna do that. Rather than getting at the symbolic meaning of things, which is why I think Sasha IADs new, uh, YouTube channel that the title is brilliant, right? The metaphor Yeah.
[00:53:51] Stephanie: Of gender. So she's teaching people to think more symbolically. So I wanna, on that note, introduce something that I taught a parent recently, [00:54:00] uh, when it comes to frameworks like Match plus one. Uh, 'cause I, I found myself explaining to the mom of a girl who doesn't have an autism diagnosis, but certainly seems that way based on the behavior that's been described to me.
[00:54:14] Stephanie: I explained what happens when your kid is ruminating, and I showed this, uh, animation that, uh, I will try to link in the show notes if I make a reminder to myself right now. I'm promising to do that. [00:54:30] It's a tweet by Nicholas Fabiano m. That shows the idea of mental health energy landscapes. I don't know if this rings a bell for you, Simon.
[00:54:40] Stephanie: Um, but it shows these, um, three dimensional landscapes of the mind and it shows normal as having these peaks and valleys. Schizophrenia is more flattened, and OCD has deeper pits, and then it shows a ball rolling around. So my understanding [00:55:00] of this graphic is that the ball shows your. Your mind's ability to, uh, move around, whether it's, you know, your conscious thoughts moving from one thing to another, but also sort of default mode network.
[00:55:12] Stephanie: And that for normal people, we can sort of stay in a certain area of focus for a while, but then we can also shift out of it. Someone with schizophrenia, but the flattened peaks and valleys, their mind is all over the place and it's connecting dots that aren't actually connected. So the, the word salad, the free [00:55:30] associations, the, this means that of schizophrenia on the one end obsessive compulsive disorder being on the other end has these deep pits.
[00:55:37] Stephanie: And I, I think of that as a mind cannot get out of a stuck place. And so a lot of these kids, they have these OCD type patterns of rumination as well. So I was talking to this mom about her daughter who ruminates and, and I showed her this image and I explained, you know, for you as a [00:56:00] neurotypical person.
[00:56:01] Stephanie: When you're having a difficult experience, you had a hard day at work or something like that, maybe you vent a little to your husband, your best friend, your sister, and then you get some empathy, a hug, some problem solving, and then you come out of it. But if you imagine that your daughter's brain has that, those deep pits, you know, you can't give her that same level of attention that she's giving you, or excuse me, that, that you would need if you were in that place.
[00:56:29] Stephanie: 'cause she'll just [00:56:30] keep ruminating. And so the experience that the mom is having here is feeling like, what do I have to do? Just keep empathizing with her. Oh that sucks. That sucks. That sucks. That sucks 20 times over. 'cause that's no fun. And am I really teaching her anything valuable there? So I explained to the mom how to use the process of reflective listening to gradually nudge that ball out of that pit, knowing it's gonna take a lot more repetition.
[00:56:58] Stephanie: Than it would take for you. [00:57:00] In other words, you might say, oh, I had a such a hard day, and my boss is so this and that. And then someone says, oh, I'm sorry, that sucks. Would you like a solution? Here's a solution. Okay, boom. You're better. For her, it might be that you have to reflect it back in a slightly different way, and then she elaborates some more, and if she elaborates some more, that means you're doing something right.
[00:57:18] Stephanie: So then you reflect it back in a slightly different way, and she elaborates some more, and you repeat this process and you repeat this process. You repeat this process much longer than you think it takes. So the mom came back to me the [00:57:30] next week, she's like, I did it and it worked. She's like, I'm so bad at this.
[00:57:34] Stephanie: I don't get this. It's really time consuming. But my daughter just kept talking and I'm like, well, you do want her talking to you about your her problems, right? Because you're her mom. I mean, it's better, better to talk to you than the internet and better to talk to you than to have everything be reinforced that that means you're trans.
[00:57:55] Stephanie: Um. So this is a framework that I taught a parent of a, a [00:58:00] somewhat spectrum ish youth, and I just wanted to invite your feedback on that.
[00:58:03] Simon: So, two thoughts. I think, uh, it's important to note that all of these strategies we're going to be talking about today are useful for everybody. Uh, two, two differing degrees.
[00:58:16] Simon: They're generally more useful for, for kids who are autistic, but basically every kid who grows up nowadays has social difficulties, has anxiety, has certain traits, which are, [00:58:30] uh, uh, a little bit autistic just because of how things are now. Um, and there are even lots of adults who, who find these things useful.
[00:58:38] Simon: Um, I've talked to lots of different people and explained all these different things and I, I'll talk to like a parent, they'll be like, wow, match plus one, I think I might use that. So I, I wanted to get that. And then secondly, I think this is your, your, your strategy here. I, my, my approach [00:59:00] is, I think, complimentary when you're, when we're talking about this particular situation of rumination and these really strong expression of emotions and kind of being stuck with that, uh, because it's really hard to feel like really sad.
[00:59:15] Simon: For example, for like two days straight. Like feeling sad for an hour is a lot. Most people can't do that. Like try crying for an hour straight, try smiling for an hour straight. That's almost [00:59:30] impossible for most people. But a lot of these kids, I mean, I've been there, I've been consistently very sad for like two days for the all, every, all of the 24 hours.
[00:59:40] Simon: It feels awful. So yes, I think it's really important to have that door open to your kid and listen to them, right? And, and have that, that conversation with them. Be patient with it. And as well, one of the things that I've found particularly [01:00:00] useful, and I advise people from, you know, my friends to coaching clients to engage in, uh, body-based distress tolerance skills.
[01:00:12] Simon: So one of the things that, uh, you know, there, there are many different things, um, and these are things, all things I've used or used still, where I have found that, uh, for example, it's very easy. It's much easier to process certain emotions [01:00:30] when I'm running or when I'm on a walk. And if I really want to get out of one of these ruts.
[01:00:37] Simon: Taking a cold shower is actually a really great way to do that because I believe, you know, it activates your parasympathetic nervous system. And worst case scenario at the, like after the cold shower, even if it doesn't work, you'll, you're a bit more awake, you're a bit cleaner. You know, uh, that that's the worst case scenario.
[01:00:58] Simon: And I think that [01:01:00] especially for young guys, uh, but as well for, for, for young girls, um, it's really, it's really important to have really concrete things you can do that get you out of this, um, rumination and, uh, what I like to call excessive verbalization of emotion. Uh, where this is one of my criticisms with a lot of modern therapy, a lot of modern therapy boils down [01:01:30] to you go to talk to your therapist and you complain to them for an hour or half an hour or whatever the, the duration is, and your therapist says, I hear you.
[01:01:39] Simon: I understand why you feel that way. And then you have no solutions. You know, you have no homework or anything, and then you come back and, and do the same thing next week, but. And again, I'm coming from a, a, a man perspective. And so this is disproportionately, I think, important for guys. It's like, and, [01:02:00] and if you're working with the dad even, or a young guy and a lot of the, the young, uh, these girls as well who are, who are gender dysphoric, um, will have kind of in some regards more male typical personalities, which is perfectly okay.
[01:02:15] Simon: Um, and so might find it useful. But having something concrete to do makes such a big difference. Having concrete goals in a therapeutic setting makes such a big difference for everybody because all of a sudden you're, you're, whoever [01:02:30] you're working with knows that this, this is what I'm doing this week, number one.
[01:02:33] Simon: And then number two, you have a way to measure, uh, efficacy. And that's useful for both the client and for, for the, the, the coach, um, or, or therapist or whatever that situation is. Um. Yeah, that's, that's a, I had a bunch of different thoughts there.
[01:02:51] Stephanie: Well, when you talk about body-based distress tolerance skills, I'm thinking how we can apply this to parents who are [01:03:00] experiencing a lot of resistance and pushback from their kids.
[01:03:02] Stephanie: The kids don't wanna exercise or they don't wanna do these things, and so it's, it's one thing to come to them on your own. Um, it's another to guide a kid towards these things. So a lot of my philosophy that informs my program for parents, ROGD, repair and my coaching work is, is about radical autonomy.
[01:03:21] Stephanie: It's that, you know, even if your kid is a minor. It's only a matter of time before they're not sure. And you can use these top-down control measures for a short period of [01:03:30] time, but it could make things worse. So ultimately, desistance has to be your kid's own idea. How do we approach the kids differently in a way that's most likely to facilitate that for them without feeling like it's something that you're pushing on them?
[01:03:43] Stephanie: And hundred percent agree. And so I would say something similar about, um, you know, leading your kids towards healthy choices because there's so many parents listening that are like, yeah, Simon, I would love for my kid to do what you do and go for a run or take a cold shower. But, you know, and so I'm thinking, what do we say to them?
[01:03:59] Stephanie: And, and for [01:04:00] one, again, there's a world of difference between your kid being drawn to something themselves and you pushing it on them. Another I would think is that, um, sometimes things have to make intellectual sense in a particular way, especially if you're dealing with one of these very intellectual, autistic kids.
[01:04:16] Stephanie: Um, to, for them to understand the rationale, like the brain science behind why these things work. And, you know, we could talk about, for instance, why a cold shower works in terms of its effect on dopamine and norepinephrine and, [01:04:30] you know, the default mode network of the brain. Um, I think some of that is key, but I'm wondering if you have any other advice for the people who, you know, are trying to lead the horse to water, so to speak.
[01:04:42] Simon: Absolutely. So there are multiple, there are a bunch of different ways to do it, but generally speaking, and I do this with myself like every day, right? We have these, these big goals and what we call big goals are kind of subjective. For some people, [01:05:00] the big goal might be taking a shower. I've been there, I get it.
[01:05:05] Simon: It look, you know, it, it's, it's, it's a very different perspective. In that situation, what you do is you gotta take the smallest possible step that even somebody as miserable as you can take. So for, for example, like if you're talking to your kid and you want your kid to try to engage in some sort of, uh, you know, [01:05:30] body-based emotional coping strategies, it's like, okay, maybe let, maybe don't start with a cold shower.
[01:05:36] Simon: That's, that's a lot, that's scary. Especially have, if you haven't done it before or don't like the cold or whatever, uh, one of the things you can do is be like, here's an ice cube. And even the act of holding the ice cube and being present with that feeling and just kind of the, oh wow, there's an ice cube in my hand that will do something.
[01:05:57] Simon: Um, you know, [01:06:00] sometimes, um, you know, you can do like an orange or a clementine in the freezer, things like that. Whatever, like just exposure to cold things really helps. Um. And of course we could get into the science on that, and depending on the kid, they need to know that or they don't need to know that.
[01:06:18] Simon: And then another thing is, you know, okay, you want to get your kid to do this. And of course parents know their kids best. And some kids, what they need is they need their parents to model the behavior. And I think [01:06:30] a lot of younger kids, that's what they're looking for. So if, if they're, you know, if, if a, like a, even like a 10, 11 middle school age kid sees their mom going through a hard time and the mom pulls an orange out of the freezer and sees that the mom is, is better.
[01:06:49] Simon: You know, the kid might be like, why are you holding a frozen orange? And, and the mom says, well, you know, it might, it makes me feel better. And the kid might [01:07:00] try it just, just for that, that reason. So there, there are lots of kind of different ways of attack. If you have very intellectual kids, send them like a paper about cold shower.
[01:07:09] Simon: Um, if you send me a si, like if you send me a scientific paper about the benefit of a thing I could go do, I'm way more likely to do it than not. Um, and like even try it. Um, whereas some kids, they need to be modeled. Some kids need to, um, [01:07:30] be kind of just like it, right? There's modeling, there's the intellectual argument, and then I feel like there's a third thing that I'm forgetting about.
[01:07:41] Simon: Um, but yeah, it's just overall try to take this big scary thing and make it easier. You know, if, if you, if you're not ready to go on a run, go on a walk. You know, if you're not ready to go on a walk, put on your shoes. And [01:08:00] sometimes I'm like, I really don't want to go on a run. And I'm like, okay, if I really don't wanna go on a run.
[01:08:06] Simon: Then I can put on my shoes and I'll still not want to go on a run. And almost all of the time when I put on my shoes, in those circumstances, I end up going on the run because I'm like, well, I already put my shoes on, and it's not that bad. And so it's just like you really need to break those things down.
[01:08:22] Simon: And a lot of these kids are depressed. And when you're depressed, it's so hard to really cajole the dopamine to do anything. And doing anything [01:08:30] that is seen as kind of a normal level of functioning is scary and difficult and seems impossible. So you really need to break things down.
[01:08:38] Stephanie: Yeah. I'm curious about your rationale for cold exposure, because I, I think of each of these things as almost separate categories.
[01:08:46] Stephanie: I think of a cold shower in terms of dopamine, norepinephrine holding a cold thing. I think of more as like. A self-harm prevention tool that I know [01:09:00] therapies, therapists sometimes teach teenagers that if you're having the urge to cut or something like that, it's um, that the desire to do some sort of self-harm can often be, um, a way of taking the emotional distress when it's feeling and putting it into the body or having some kind of physical outlet for that.
[01:09:25] Stephanie: It can also be a reaction to feeling dissociated. [01:09:30] Um, and then there's also the sort of chemical high that one gets from inducing pain because when we induce pain, the pleasure response comes, our endorphins come to soothe that pain. Um, and so I think of something like holding an ice cube as activating those same pain and pleasure.
[01:09:50] Stephanie: Um, receptors without any actual damage to the body. And then I'm thinking of like, cool sensations on certain parts of the body, like the face, for instance, can activate, um, they can stimulate the vagus [01:10:00] nerve. Um, so I'm curious when, when you talk about an orange in the freezer, uh, I've never heard of that particular one.
[01:10:06] Stephanie: What's, what's the rationale for that one?
[01:10:08] Simon: So I wanna give you what might be kind of an unsatisfying answer.
[01:10:13] Stephanie: Okay.
[01:10:13] Simon: But I'm, I'm, I'll try to kind of expound appropriately. I think kind of breaking down all of the different, um, biomechanical or neurobiological pathways rather, um, of the different approaches is kind of losing the forest for the trees.
[01:10:28] Simon: Okay. [01:10:30] Uh, because I think in, in this situation, even if you have a kid who's super duper, scientifically minded, super duper intellectual, actually what that kid means is not more intellectualization of things, but rather the. Experiences that allow them to em, embodied experiences is what they need, right?
[01:10:56] Simon: They're going to need to feel an [01:11:00] emotion. They're going to need to know how to cope with that emotion, and they need to feel what it's like to do that. They need to feel how it feels when they make a a mistake. They need to feel how it feels when they're in love. They need to feel how it right. They, they can think about how all of the things going on, but I, as, as somebody who used to really ignore my sort of internal, um, sensory and [01:11:30] mental landscape to, to a great degree, aside from the intellectual side of things, what a lot of kids don't realize is that the internal world, if you really explore it, is just as rich and interesting as the external world.
[01:11:46] Simon: And with all of these different body-based strategies, the main thing for me is, and especially if you're gender dysphoric, uh, [01:12:00] these kids are disconnected from their bodies in some way to some level. And holding an orange in your hand that connects you to your body, taking a cold shower that connects you to your body, going on a walk that connects you to your body, going on a run that connects you to your body, doing jumping jacks, um, you know, going to, going in a hot tub, like going out and living life with your body physically in the real world is what they need.
[01:12:29] Simon: [01:12:30] And, and, uh, when you're feeling emotions, you don't feel emotions in your brain. You feel emotions in your body. So, and, and this is maybe where I, I might lose some people, but I'm very fascinated by, um, ancient Vedic texts, um, from India. And they have a very different approach to understanding, uh, human psychology and human physical health [01:13:00] than a lot of sort of western, uh, modern scientific perspectives.
[01:13:05] Simon: And I'm kind of gonna be spuing a a bunch of different things together. So I don't wanna be claiming to be an authority on any of this, but kind of what I've, I've come away with is, you know, you have this whole idea of, of, um, this is gonna sound like so new age and stupid, but you, you do have this idea of, of chakras where there are specific places in the body.
[01:13:28] Simon: I'm not gonna like talk about like [01:13:30] enlightenment or Kundalini logo yoga or anything like that. But what I am going to talk about is they have all these diagrams. Where they got a bunch of monks to sit in a cave together and meditate and feel different things, and explore different parts of their minds.
[01:13:45] Simon: And then they all came together to talk about it and be like, okay, how can we explain this to other people? How can we write this down? And they have all of these diagrams of what things feel like, what the subjective experience of reality is like [01:14:00] and how to approach it, which is a thing that modern science is really, really bad at describing and exploring because it's all sort of qualitative data and you can't calculate with qualitative data that well.
[01:14:16] Simon: And so. When we're talking about these kids who are disconnected from their body, who are super intellectual, they're looking for something they can do a, a, like a a p [01:14:30] value calculation with, or a a, a cheese squared test or something like that, you know, but they're looking in exactly the wrong place.
[01:14:39] Simon: Where they should be looking is in the embodied experiences that they have and could have. And once you add, you know, relationships in the mix, that adds, you know, more potential learning. That was a very long-winded explanation, but I hope that answered your question.
[01:14:55] Stephanie: I'm hearing that it needs to be sensory as [01:15:00] opposed to the navel gazing that these kids are so prone to because the, the intellectual, you know, dissociated, disembodied, um, self rumination is oftentimes part of the problem, but I think one of the benefits of cold is that it kind of shocks you, it wakes you up.
[01:15:15] Stephanie: And another thing I was thinking of in, in those ca that category, speaking of yogic stuff, is, uh, Shakti mats. Do you know those? Um, I'm sure, yeah. They're
[01:15:23] Simon: like the right, yeah. They're like spiky and stuff.
[01:15:25] Stephanie: Yeah. There are these mats you can buy. Uh, we have one, I, I should use it more [01:15:30] often. It has these little plastic, um, like 2000 spikes and you just lay on it and it's really uncomfortable, but it's not damaging.
[01:15:37] Stephanie: It's not breaking the skin, it's not causing you to bleed. Um, but that sensation of pain, it creates, it stimulates blood flow and, uh, endorphins. Um, so what I'm hearing is a common thread in a lot of what you're describing is having a new. Present moment experience of yes. Sensation in the body.
[01:15:58] Simon: Yeah. And, and in terms of, [01:16:00] of these sensations, yes, I am encouraging, um, these, these kids to look inwards and people are going to hear that and they're gonna be, well, you know, my kids already ruminating all the time.
[01:16:12] Simon: Why should I encourage them to look inwards more? But when I say this right, from an outside observer's perspective, you're not really going to be seeing this person's subjective experience. But if you think for a moment, and we, we all will kind of understand what I'm talking about here, [01:16:30] think about how you are kind of normally, like where you feel like your mind is, is in your head right now.
[01:16:38] Simon: If you, if you get super focused on a task, let's say you're writing an essay or you're producing music. Or you're playing, uh, like baseball or watching a, a TV show, all of a sudden your mind, like if, if you're watching a TV show, this is a great example. All of a sudden, all of the things around [01:17:00] the screen disappear.
[01:17:01] Simon: You're not gonna notice them anymore, and your mind is like in the screen basically. That's kind of what it feels like subjectively. Now, what it feels like to be ruminating is your mind has almost gone back and so it, it, it, it almost feels like your, your mind has separated from your body. That's what it feels like.
[01:17:26] Simon: And like, I'm not claiming, uh, I'm not making a reality [01:17:30] claim here. I'm just describing how it feels and when, when you feel like your mind is separated from your body, whichever direction that is, that means that. You're going to be disconnected from a lot of your emotions because your emotions happen in the body.
[01:17:48] Simon: But yeah, I, I'm, I'm very fascinated by these subjective experiences, and I have found that when you take the time, one of the things that has been the [01:18:00] most healing for me is taking the time to really investigate these subjective experiences, um, of my body and mind in concert. Um, and that's really the only I, I think that's necessary to become a whole and to complete human being and heal from trauma, especially because, you know, if there's one thing that will separate your mind from your body, it will be physical abuse and sexual [01:18:30] assaults.
[01:18:32] Simon: Because what being bullied physically and what being sexually assaulted tells your body is your body is not safe anymore. You're going to want to either be dissociated from your body or you're going to want to be focusing on something else.
[01:18:48] Stephanie: Are you a therapist in need of continuing education that's not over the top woke?
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[01:19:12] Stephanie: Visit lisa mustard.com/pod courses and use code some therapist to take $5 off of her $49 pod course bundle. Again, use code some therapist@lisamustard.com slash pod courses. I'll include that link and coupon in the show notes for your [01:19:30] convenience. Alright, now back to the show and let me play devil's advocate for the young people in a dissociated state without trauma.
[01:19:41] Stephanie: I don't know if devil's advocate is the right word here, but I'd like to make the case that. Being present in one's body isn't the default state. It's a process that has to unfold. It needs to be supported by experiences. And so earlier you were saying [01:20:00] that a lot of young people these days are a little autistic because of the social isolation of the pandemic combined with spending so much time on screens.
[01:20:08] Stephanie: So it's, it's partly about what's happening when the world is reduced to the two dimension asynchronous communication of the screen. But it's also the opportunity cost. What experiences are they not having? And if you think about how rapidly a person is transforming during puberty, um, a lot of times when I am interviewing a parent for their, their kid's history, a lot of the positive experiences [01:20:30] they're describing of things their kid once loved to do are all from before puberty.
[01:20:35] Stephanie: And so the question remains since they have achieved the state of being in a body that has achieved adult sexual maturity. Have they had experiences in this body the way it is now, uh, that taught them to love this body, right? That, and, and to enjoy all the things that this body is capable of doing.
[01:20:58] Stephanie: Because if your kid [01:21:00] loved gymnastics or skiing or whatever it was when they were eight, um, that's nice. That's great. But that, that was, that felt like a different body ago, you know?
[01:21:10] Simon: Yeah. Literally. Uh, 100%. I mean, I, I was, I, I wanted to kind of think of a thought experiment here, and it's like, you know, if you, if you have a, I I was staying with some friends recently and they have a, they have a, like a 2-year-old.
[01:21:25] Simon: Um, and I, I, this is a weird, weird thing to [01:21:30] think, but I'm like, you know, I wonder what it's like to be this 2-year-old. Does this two yearold dissociate, does this 2-year-old get really focused on things or is this two year old's experience, um, rooted in their, their body? And I think that if you kind of observe the behavior of very young children and babies, that they start out actually being very much like all, all of the emotions they feel are directly related to their bodily [01:22:00] sensations.
[01:22:01] Simon: And like, I just pooped my diaper, or I'm hungry, or I'm tired. Right? That's all there is. They don't really, for the first like year or, or I don't really quite remember the development of eyesight, but for a while babies can't really see more than a couple of feet away. And, and so. At some point. Yeah. I, and I, I would point at puberty as that.
[01:22:25] Simon: You kind of lose that for a moment. And I remember when I [01:22:30] went through puberty, that was quite hard. And, and the thing that hit me the hardest was, you know, I really liked to sing before puberty. And I was prepping for an audition for a musical, and all of a sudden my voice started changing on me. And now I can't sing the song like I used to, and I'm freaking out.
[01:22:47] Simon: I'm like, what the heck? And I, I, I've since gotten, you know, back into singing Of course. Uh, but that was really, really hard for me. And I think [01:23:00] that, you know, I do hear from a lot of parents as well, and a lot of people and adults even that, yeah. They're like, you know, before puberty I was really into this thing.
[01:23:10] Simon: And after puberty, I never really found anything. Or maybe they got into a different thing. And I think that. When you, when you have a kid who's going through, through gender dysphoria, they're looking for that thing, uh, they haven't found a way to rebuild that relationship with their body. And [01:23:30] you can be kind of stuck in that, that place of never having rebuilt that relationship with this new body or built this relationship with this new body more appropriately labeled one could say, um, until, well, until into their twenties.
[01:23:44] Simon: And the, you know, the question is how do you re rebuild that relationship? And again, I point at the holding the orange, taking a cold shower, going for a walk, using the body to do things. Um, and then another related thing is. [01:24:00] I used to be very fixated on how my body looked with, because I was gender dysphoric and I look in the mirror and like, I don't like what I see.
[01:24:08] Simon: And eventually I started kind of shifting towards my, my, uh, relationship with my body that was less about how my body looks to what does my body do like, and how well does it do that, right? Instead of being like, oh, I look kind of like a, you know, a, a woman in [01:24:30] this one particular place in my body. I can be, well, I can lift this thing, which is very heavy, or I can run this far.
[01:24:39] Simon: And I think that's a, a much healthier place to be with a body.
[01:24:44] Stephanie: Well said. Thank you. And I think over time, those experiences of feeling capable and confident in one's body. Ideally help round out that person's comfort in carrying themselves because [01:25:00] what all of these young people are ultimately seeking and, and, and what is essentially the developmental task of anyone at that age is, is to come into your full, what I've heard described as your, your adult main personality.
[01:25:17] Stephanie: Um, to, to have that embodied sense of self and a coherent way of presenting yourself to the world that is flexible, but also solid, right? [01:25:30] Because we need to have a cohesive sense of self and not just feel like we become a different person depending on the room that we're in. Um, but also that our personality can adjust to the company that we keep.
[01:25:43] Stephanie: And, and all of that is, it's easier said than done. I mean, it, it's a complex process that takes years and it takes experiences to, to shape it. And you know, in the gender critical scene, I'm sure you've, you've heard all the different [01:26:00] sentiments on a range of issues ranging from the radical feminist to the conservative Christians.
[01:26:07] Stephanie: And there are some extreme views in, in any particular camp. Right. And one of them is that one thing I would consider an extreme view, and I don't know if you do, is that how you look doesn't matter. And I think for most people, if we're honest, it does matter Yes. To, to us how we carry and present ourselves.[01:26:30]
[01:26:30] Stephanie: And we also notice if we're paying attention that the way other people carry and present themselves affects our perception of them. Yes. And so I think a lot of these young people who are experimenting with identity, it's not necessarily a comforting message 'cause it's not going to resonate with the truth.
[01:26:48] Stephanie: But it's daunting, right? It's daunting to let go of the fantasy of omnipotent control that, oh, I can just declare my pronouns, declare how I wanna be seen, and I'll make everyone, I'll be able to control how [01:27:00] people perceive me, right? To let go of that and come into, oh, I, it's on me to kind of present myself in a way that I feel good about and that people are gonna like, but it also feels authentic to me.
[01:27:11] Stephanie: That's such a huge task
[01:27:13] Simon: whenever you have a huge task, and this, this is kind of a theme with me. I've said this same thing multiple times, but if there is one thing you're going to take away from this conversation, this should be it. Because a lot of people don't have, ha ha. A lot of people have not [01:27:30] experienced the absolute depths of year upon year, major depressive, um, chapters of life.
[01:27:40] Simon: Um, and, and that's where a lot of understanding and empathy breaks down between kids and parents, because in fact, depression is far more common in this generation. And I do not think that it's just because we're diagnosing it more, um, is whenever you have a big challenge, a [01:28:00] big task, you break it down.
[01:28:02] Simon: You, you know, what are the fundamentals and the fundamentals of presenting yourself in the world is okay. Make sure your hygiene is good. Take a shower. Like, you could feel terrible about your body, but like, if you're stinky and there's some dirt on your knee and you feel you, you know, if you're like a little bit sweaty and it's like dried, you feel kind of weird.
[01:28:24] Simon: Like, I really hate that feeling. Like if you take a shower, you're gonna feel a bit better. You're gonna be like, wow, I feel [01:28:30] better. Right? You haven't solved it completely, but. You know, worst case scenario, scenario, you're clean and you took a shower, and then it's, it's like we, we have a whole, um, yes, we have a, a tradition and tradition is, is not always, um, completely useful for people, but dressing well, right?
[01:28:54] Simon: You know, okay, wear a button down shirt, maybe some long pants if you're a [01:29:00] guy or a girl. I mean either works. Um, and, and wear something that is, you know, in your culture, uh, considered appropriate and, and a little bit dressed up than perhaps your average Joe. And you'll notice that people treat you differently, um, and that will make you feel good and people will treat you better.
[01:29:28] Simon: Uh, and, and that's super simple and it [01:29:30] could feel inauthentic. At the end of the day, but at least you know that hey, you can do something that's real and concrete and maintainable, um, where you can kind of have that, you know, have what you're kinda looking for at the end of the day. And then the second thing, the third thing rather is, is health is people like healthy people and people aren't aware of this, but there are all of [01:30:00] these subconscious, uh, signals that we pick up in each other, uh, whether that's in, in face shape and symmetry and body fat distribution and hair and all.
[01:30:13] Simon: Basically all of the things we find attractive in people are signals of physical and genetic health. And you can make those signals, uh, more prominent. Again, with hygiene and [01:30:30] also with things like exercise and eating well, you could eat the same amount of calories, and if you ate, you know, whole Foods, you would look better than if you ate the same amount of calories with completely super processed foods.
[01:30:44] Simon: And there are many different directions to go, but you know, oftentimes you'll find that if you take a little step, you'll see a little bit of improvement. And if you take the next step, you'll see some more improvement. And then it snowballs.
[01:30:55] Stephanie: It sounds self-evident, but I, I can imagine the queer theorists [01:31:00] protesting against the perceived oppression of these, these facts of reality, right?
[01:31:07] Stephanie: That, that we find sin, we find signs of fertility attractive, and that, that there are certain ways of grooming and presenting yourself that are considered more appropriate than others. And, and I think. If I'm gonna name Queer Theory, it's the, the point of queer theory is to dismantle everything healthy in society.
[01:31:26] Stephanie: So it's, um, you know, we don't, we don't bow to them here, but, [01:31:30] but I just feel for these kids that are caught up in really self-defeating belief systems, because deep down we do care what other people think of us. We do want others to like us, and we, we strive for some kind of coherence. We wanna make sense to ourselves and make sense to other people.
[01:31:51] Stephanie: We wanna be effective at getting what we want from other people. Um, and, and so subscribing to queer [01:32:00] theory and deliberately undermining one's, not only signs of fertility, but literal fertility as in the case of, you know, sterilizing so-called gender affirming care. It's, it's all very self-defeating and it's, it's just sad that many of these kids won't, um.
[01:32:16] Stephanie: Come to just kind of accept these facets of reality until it's, it's too late.
[01:32:22] Simon: And yeah, I, I, I guess I have two more things on that is, you know, if, if you're a young guy and you wanna wear a dress, [01:32:30] it's better to be a well groomed, healthy young guy who's wearing a dress than a poorly groomed, unhealthy guy who's wearing a dress.
[01:32:37] Simon: Number one. Um, and find somebody who will argue the other side completely, genuinely, who you would want to share a meal with. And maybe I'll take it back. Um, that's a pretty tall order. Uh, secondly is [01:33:00] one of the, the reasons this I think impacts autistic kids disproportionately is because autistic kids have trouble with theory of mind and theory of mind and empathy are.
[01:33:13] Simon: Very similar, but theory of mine is this idea that other people have their own minds and experiences and preferences and everybody isn't just like a copy paste version of you in a different situation and different clothes and body, right? Um, and I [01:33:30] think that a lot of autistic kids, when they hear empathy, they're like, they think, oh, empathy is when people feel what other people are feeling.
[01:33:39] Simon: But I don't do that, so I must not have empathy in reality. That's a very simplified version of empathy. Empathy, I believe, is being able to understand and know on a deep level or on any level really what it's actually like to be another person. And one of the [01:34:00] issues with queer theory is this thing called standpoint epistemology.
[01:34:04] Simon: It's this idea, um, where there are certain categories of knowledge only accessible to people of oppressed classes. So it's, it, it basically, I can never understand what it's like to be a black person in a useful way. That's what's basing your worldview on standpoint epistemology means. So that prevents the development of empathy [01:34:30] across difference.
[01:34:32] Simon: So if you're stuck in that and everything's captured by that and you're already having issues with empathy, you're not going to understand that when you're a guy and you wear a dress and say, your pronouns are she her, you're not going to understand that other people are still going to see you as a man, even if they, you know, kowtow to the ideology and that the reason they're treating you, [01:35:00] quote unquote, as if you were a woman isn't because they see you as a woman.
[01:35:03] Simon: But because. Either they truly believe in the ideology or they are afraid for the repercussions. It's, it's, it's fundamentally, uh, a coercive situation. And I am not a big believer in coercing other people to see you a, a particular way because you can't do that
[01:35:22] Stephanie: when you describe standpoint epistemology.
[01:35:25] Stephanie: I think another real danger of that belief system [01:35:30] is that at least I think I've yet to encounter anyone who thinks that way, that doesn't also think that it's very obvious to them that had they been present at any other point in history, they would've obviously been on the right side of history. That is a belief that they hold, and to me that really points to a lack of theory of mind of not being interested in understanding how.
[01:35:59] Stephanie: People [01:36:00] who view themselves as good can commit atrocities for me, that that's really important. Like, it, it's such an important part of my participation as a human being on this planet, is to understand how people who view themselves as good can do terrible things. And that I am human in the same way.
[01:36:21] Stephanie: That's where the understanding of sin is valid. That's where the understanding of the, you know, soldier niesen quote, [01:36:30] the little line between good and evil running through the heart of every man. Um, and so it seems like the very same people who would say that you cannot possibly understand what it's like to be black, for example, and that obviously I can't buy the same logic, you know, would also not have you put yourself in the shoes of, um, the bad guys either.
[01:36:55] Stephanie: So to speak. So it's, it's a real kind of lack of [01:37:00] theory of mind across the board that I think results in tremendous hubris and folly.
[01:37:05] Simon: Yeah. And this, this is, this is shocking. So one of my favorite things to do is to go out literally on the street sometimes and talk to people who disagree with me.
[01:37:15] Stephanie: I love that.
[01:37:16] Simon: Now I've had a lot of conversations where the goal of my conversations now are not to convince the other person of my point of view. I'm the most of the time I, that's kind of out of the [01:37:30] picture. Instead, my goal is, can I get this person to understand that people they disagree with believe things for reasons that aren't one of the throwaway reasons, like racism or transphobia or something.
[01:37:44] Simon: Right. And so, I'll, I'll ask somebody. You know, in certain cultures, um, they see. Being homosexuality is wrong and they, uh, kill gay people for being gay. Um, can you [01:38:00] understand how if you took somebody from that culture and put them here, how they would then think that, um, killing gay people is right, because they think that, um, God doesn't, you know, condone, you know, homosexuality, for example, and they'll say, well, I think killing people is bad.
[01:38:24] Simon: Like, they don't, they don't understand that this other person thinks a different thing than [01:38:30] them for a reason and like it's
[01:38:38] Simon: they, so, or, or you might ask them, okay, put yourself in my shoes. I personally like, so, oh, I had a, this, this conversation with somebody recently about, um, around the Charlie Kirk thing about abortion. So I asked somebody, somebody sent me a clip and was like, you know, Harley Kirk's evil because he said this [01:39:00] thing, and, and this is a very crazy thing for a guy to say, but it was something along the lines of, you know, if his, like eight or 9-year-old daughter got pregnant, um, after being sexually assaulted, um, would he want her to keep the baby?
[01:39:16] Simon: Now that's, that's a very hard question to ask somebody. Now, I'm not saying I disagree or disagree with Charlie Kirk's response, but he said he would want hi his daughter to keep the baby. Now. Now, the person I was talking to [01:39:30] was like, oh, he's evil and awful, and all of these things, because he responded that way.
[01:39:36] Simon: And I, and now I don't have agree or disagree. I, I haven't really made my mind up about that. What I'm more interested in is why he would say that, and I asked the person I was talking to, okay, if you thought that human embryos starting at fertility had the same moral weight as a [01:40:00] fully grown human, what would you say?
[01:40:05] Simon: And the person I was talking to was completely unable to think about that. And it's, it's wild to me that we, there are so many fully grown adults in this world who can't do something like that. And, and that's where, um, a lot of political conversations breakdown is a lack of empathy and a lack of theory of mind.[01:40:30]
[01:40:30] Stephanie: Well, I think it's so great that you're getting out there and, um, asking people these questions in public settings. What kind of settings are you going to, like, universities or,
[01:40:40] Simon: so, um, lately it's been a lot of, so like two settings, mainly protests that I do. So I protested Pride, I protested the Endocrine Society, um, and then, um, legislative hearings.
[01:40:57] Simon: So I'll go and testify for or [01:41:00] against a bill and I talk to people and on the other side of the issue and they say, you know, this is, this is my point of view. And, you know, I'll say to them, you know, I understand why you think, what you think, um, I listened to your testimony and you know, if I thought that my daughter was, was really better off undergoing this care that she would kill herself.
[01:41:21] Simon: If she didn't, I would be doing the same thing that you're doing right now. And they're always taken aback by that. They're not [01:41:30] used to somebody saying, like ex telling them that if I were in your shoes and believed what you believed, I would do the same thing. And here's an explanation of what you believe that's pretty accurate to what you believe.
[01:41:42] Simon: People aren't used to this on either side. And then, you know, I try to try to get them to understand why I believe what I believe, and and, and sometimes I am effective in that. And sometimes people change their minds.
[01:41:56] Stephanie: That's really great. And I hope people are taking notes who wanna be more [01:42:00] effective communicators because you're starting with agreement.
[01:42:02] Stephanie: And that's what Charlie Kirk did. He would try to get people to clarify their position first and then look for where they agree or where he, you know, and I teach parents this all the time, right? Like, because you're so many times they're in polarized positions with their kids during an adolescent power struggle for autonomy.
[01:42:26] Stephanie: So I say, Hey, whenever they say something where you can say, you're [01:42:30] right, or I agree. Um, even if it's just to 10% of what they're saying, you know, lead with that
[01:42:36] Simon: 100% I, and there, and there's this breakdown that happens between the, the kid and the adult or, and the parent. The parent will said, well, the kid believes that because, you know, they're amateur in a kid.
[01:42:46] Simon: That's not a good, that's not a good explanation. Um, that might be like several layers down, but the kid's not going to feel heard or want to continue talking to you if that's what you believe and [01:43:00] that's how you act and that's what you say to them. The same thing happens the other way around where the kid will say, well, you know, this is my dad.
[01:43:07] Simon: He doesn't know what I'm going through. And it, it's, it's never, that's not a good explanation. Again, it's like maybe that's, you know, several layers deep down, but your dad believes things for reasons the kid believes things for reasons. And understanding those reasons and believing those things. In a worst case scenario, you agree to disagree and you have a better [01:43:30] relationship because of it.
[01:43:31] Stephanie: Well, I feel like we could talk all day, but that seems like as good a place as they need to wrap things up. What do you think?
[01:43:36] Simon: Yeah, I think that sounds good.
[01:43:38] Stephanie: All right, so Simon, where can people find you?
[01:43:40] Simon: People can find me on X Instagram or YouTube at Simon Amaya Price. I also have a website, and it's simon amaya price.com.
[01:43:50] Stephanie: All right, so at Simon Amaya Price on X, Instagram and YouTube and Simon Amaya Price. Dot com. That's pretty straightforward. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
[01:43:59] Simon: [01:44:00] Likewise.
[01:44:01] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to you Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice.
[01:44:14] Stephanie: And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the [01:44:30] impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair.
[01:44:38] Stephanie: Any resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below Rain or shine. I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:45:00] [01:45:30] world.