Do Evangelicals Have A Trust Problem? | Walter Kim, NAE

Show Notes

Does the name "evangelical" do more harm than good in today’s culture? What role is "deconstruction" playing in the Christian community? Do Christian ministries have a trust problem, and how do we respond?

Join the conversation as Michael Martin sits down with Walter Kim, the President of the National Association of Evangelicals, as they work through these questions together.

NAE's For the Health of the Nation: https://www.nae.org/for-the-health-of-the-nation/

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Table of Contents:
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00:00 - Intro
00:55 - Walter stepping into the role as President of the NAE
07:25 - United as evangelicals in polarizing times
16:29 - The word "evangelical" historically
31:16 - Ex-vangelicals and deconstruction
44:46 - Do evangelicals have a trust problem?

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Disclosure: This video is provided as general educational information and with the understanding that ECFA is not rendering legal, accounting, or other professional advice or service. Professional advice on specific issues should be sought from an accountant, lawyer, or other professional. Opinions presented are those of the speakers and not necessarily the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.

Video Topics: deconstruction, exvangelical, evangelical, church, Christian, Christ, God, bible, scripture, church plant, missions, ministry, mission, congregation, worship, money, giving, tithing, tithe, give, finances, financial accountability, governance, stewardship, budgeting, budget, podcast, nonprofits, nonprofit, audit, transparency, trust

Creators and Guests

Host

Michael Martin

President & CEO of ECFA

What is Behind the Seal?

ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?

Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.

00;00;00;17 - 00;00;46;20
Walter Kim
After my parents immigrated. At every it seemed like at every significant juncture of our family's life. There were people of faith to welcome us. Just to engage on the national level and think through, "Yeah, you know, that sounds good in theory, but that actually doesn't work in a local church. And I can tell you why, as I'm right in the middle of it." What it means to be evangelical is, in fact, to be good news people. And the term is not an American concoction. And trust is absolutely essential because what other currency do we have? There's trust problems within the community as evangelicalism has come sorted out into different streams and tribes within the evangelical movement that have come to question one another.

00;00;55;07 - 00;00;59;07
Michael Martin
Well, Walter, welcome to the ECFA podcast. We're so grateful you can be with us today.

00;00;59;22 - 00;01;01;07
Walter Kim
Thank you, Michael, for having me on.

00;01;01;27 - 00;01;09;08
Michael Martin
Good. Well, hey, let's just start with tell us a little bit about you. And also the NAE, the National Association of Evangelicals.

00;01;09;26 - 00;02;25;26
Walter Kim
Yeah. So the National Association of Evangelicals is an organization it's been around since 1942. And currently we represent evangelical denominations, about 40 different denominations from Pentecostal to Presbyterian Brethren, Baptists, Mennonites, Methodists. I mean it's a whole range of streams of traditions with a core of evangelical faith. And I'm sure we'll get to the conversation of what that means. But in addition to the local churches represented through the denomination, we also think about the church more broadly in its various forms of work. So the membership includes institutions, nonprofit organizations, missions organizations, education institutions, seminaries and Christian colleges, and a variety of types of ministries that once again holds to a certain set of core beliefs and expressions of those beliefs and a wide range of of ministries and services And so this, you know, it's a really astounding thing to to witness the breadth of God's work in this world and through the organizations and churches represented by the NRA.

00;02;25;27 - 00;02;52;04
Walter Kim
And as for myself, I've been in this position for two years. I call myself a pandemic president I began my installation was on March 4, 2020. And then the following week the world shut down And so it's been an interesting experience, obviously fraught with challenges in the last couple of years, but also incredible opportunities.

00;02;53;04 - 00;03;47;26
Michael Martin
That's exactly right. Well, Walter, congratulations on your time. So excited to have you on the podcast because I know myself like many others, we just admire your leadership during this time. You and I actually have that in common. I know we've talked about that before, too. Being a pandemic presidents, we're in that club So just really grateful for your leadership and really the work of any and it was shared with you. This is what we call the Behind the SEAL podcast. Where we go behind the scenes. And so one of the things I just wanted to invite you into is to go behind the scenes and maybe tell folks, like what really motivated you to take on this role of any, especially in such significant times. I mean, no one saw the pandemic coming, but significant times nonetheless. You're a local church pastor. You have so many other things going on. What was really the draw for you to step in to this role?

00;03;49;11 - 00;04;14;03
Walter Kim
Yeah, that's a great question. And going behind a bit to the kind of personal journey toward it. I did not grow up in an evangelical household. My parents immigrated from Korea. My father was actually a refugee who had escaped communist China and made his way to South Korea, literally crossing a river in a barrel. I mean, his journey was quite harrowing.

00;04;14;29 - 00;04;45;13
Walter Kim
But when my parents met in South Korea, one of the things that was remarkable during that time period of the Korean War and its immediate aftermath was the place of people of faith. And long before I even knew the term evangelical or my parents even understood the term "evangelical," World Relief actually had set up distribution centers within South Korea at that time where food was being distributed.

00;04;45;13 - 00;05;38;02
Walter Kim
And they represented a form of evangelical faith that was vital and over time, I came to learn that World Relief is the humanitarian arm of the National Association of Evangelicals. And so this experience of being introduced to the evangelical tradition continued in America after my parents immigrated and we were growing up in the country at every, it seemed like, at every significant juncture of our family's life, there were people of faith to welcome us. Irish-Catholic family and whose basement we lived in the Bronx, as as as a little kid. I remember that their kids showed me how to get to the park and how to ride my big wheel. And I think of the Lutheran pastor to help my parents as immigrants to this country navigate life here.

00;05;38;02 - 00;06;08;22
Walter Kim
And and once again, for me, the introduction to faith was of an evangelical youth pastor who in my high school years really presented a vision of faith that was lived out very personally and very winsome. And so that that journey to evangelicalism was marked by a really generous spirit that combined word and deed in a very compelling way.

00;06;09;10 - 00;06;39;21
Walter Kim
And then I came to discover that the National Association of Evangelicals was composed of churches and institutions that really have this as part of their DNA. And so when I became a board member several years back through the connection at Park Street Church, where I used to serve in Boston, Massachusetts, that was instrumental in the founding of the National Association of Evangelicals that connection led to being on the board.

00;06;39;21 - 00;07;12;26
Walter Kim
And that opportunity on the board led to an increased involvement in the work of the NAE. And then this opportunity. So in many ways, you know, I think of myself as an accidental evangelical, but in the providence of God, yes, it is something that he has orchestrated I did not grow up into this that grew up in this tradition, but it is a tradition that has marked a kind of hospitality, generosity, and clarity about what it means to have saving faith in Christ.

00;07;25;21 - 00;07;44;29
Michael Martin
Yeah, what an amazing story, too. And I just think of Walter that's such a good reminder for us as leaders and organizations that we serve. Like, we just never know who's on the other side of of who we're serving. And it's not just about what we believe but that really everything that we do and how we show the love of Christ. That's an awesome story.

00;07;45;25 - 00;07;46;05
Walter Kim
Thanks.

00;07;47;07 - 00;08;12;29
Michael Martin
I also wanted to ask you, too. There may be folks like me who are wondering like, how do you balance it all? Because you're not just leading this really significant association, but also you're still very full time in your role. As a local church pastor. And many people who are who are listening, maybe they're juggling some responsibilities, different responsibilities as well. So yeah, give us some behind the scenes of that as well. How do you how do you manage to juggle it all?

00;08;14;04 - 00;09;07;08
Walter Kim
Yeah, I think for much of the time during the pandemic, this kind of dual role that I've had as president of any as well as being a working local pastor is actually been mutually informative and beneficial Because a lot of the challenges that existed in in the nation, whether it's the issue of polarization or how to navigate the closing down or reopening of churches, the difficulties and challenges of race in America, all these things on the national level, I I had the opportunity to think about and labor in a local context in which these discussions were profoundly important and challenging, but they were not detached from life stories.

00;09;07;08 - 00;10;02;04
Walter Kim
Yes. Actual stories of people whom I know and love and I'm seeking to bring God's word to and the spirit of the Lord manifest in a life that is rich in its affection for one another in Christ, and yet encountering all these challenges. And so what I experienced on the local level would inform and keep rooted what I was seeking to do on a national level, and vice versa, the opportunities to engage on the national level and think through, "Yeah, you know, that sounds good in theory, but that actually doesn't work in a local church. And I can tell you why 'casue I'm right in the middle of it." I think it's been really helpful to have that dual experience and context inform one another. Challenging. Absolutely enriching. Definitely but very, very helpful.

00;10;02;28 - 00;11;14;21
Michael Martin
Good. Well, thanks for giving us a little bit of that behind the scenes look. And you're doing a phenomenal job. We're really cheering you on the work of NAE is just so important and we value that. And, you know, I couldn't not take advantage of just being able to be in this conversation. with you to ask some tough questions, too, because these are times where I guess the word that comes to me is even just thinking about identity. There's a lot of questions that leaders today are asking about identity and even the word evangelical and our movement and what people are processing and walking through. But my first question related to identity is just around. We see that with NAE there's sort of the there's these really important dual roles, right? Of taking bold courageous positions on issues that are important to culture. While at the same time, you mentioned the beautiful diversity that exists even within the evangelical movement and providing opportunities for unity. So balancing both courage and to take some of those bold, bold statements and stances while at the same time unity. How do you manage to to juggle both?

00;11;15;29 - 00;11;38;29
Walter Kim
Oh, wow. That that is a simple question to ask and frame. It's an obvious question to ask, an important question to ask and so difficult to answer. You know, there are certain principles that could apply, but the lived reality is one of complexity. And a solution that works or an approach that works in one context doesn't work in another.

00;11;38;29 - 00;12;10;03
Walter Kim
And and I think, you know, anyone who's worked in a local church context or a complex organization recognizes that. And really, anyone who has human relationships recognizes that the way that you parent one child is different than the way that you parent another. Even if there's the same spirit and desire to nurture others. And and so, you know, when you ask that question, I think about the dual roles that any leader, Christian leader would have to have or being prophetic and pastoral.

00;12;11;03 - 00;12;46;09
Walter Kim
But the challenge is what is prophetic in one context may not be pastoral. And vice versa. So, you know, I think of situations of trauma and abuse to speak out prophetically is absolutely important. But to a victim of trauma and abuse, that prophetic stance is actually a pastoral stance it's a stance that nurtures. And the same issue when it comes to the racial complexities of our country.

00;12;47;08 - 00;13;16;08
Walter Kim
What might seem to be a bold, prophetic, challenging, uncomfortable stance or position or comment for a different community is absolutely essential to feel heard and pastored. So it's really difficult because it's not merely trying to manage, you know, is this a statement that's prophetic or is this a statement is pastoral? You can make one statement and it's simultaneously going to be viewed as non pastoral or overly prophetic.

00;13;16;22 - 00;13;42;23
Walter Kim
And vice versa, depending on the here. And that really makes it a lot more complex. So, you know, some of the underlying maybe things that guide me, I come back to James so often. James chapter one, Dear Brothers and Sisters take note of this. Everyone should be quick to listen slow to speak, slow to become angry because human anger does not produce the righteousness of God.

00;13;43;08 - 00;14;45;12
Walter Kim
And boy, if if God's people could live that out. I think we would be in such a better place, not only within our community, but our communities relationship externally. And so I think is the ability to take a bold stance in any one situation or the ability to produce unity in any one situation, really as a product of a posture in a lifetime of credibility, building your ability to take a bold stance, your ability to really be believed in this pursuit of common ground really is a function not of a technique, but a lifetime commitment to pray for unity, to listen with genuine curiosity, to dissenting opinions, to treat people with dignity, to have the humility

00;14;45;12 - 00;15;11;10
Walter Kim
to recognize that you don't have all the answers, and to be constructive in our comments to think about for whose benefit am I making this statement? Is it to just relieve tension within myself? I got to say something or is this truly going to be beneficial? You know, as Paul states not not everything that's permissible is in fact beneficial.

00;15;11;11 - 00;16;11;26
Walter Kim
Not everything that could be said is, in fact, constructive in 1 Corinthians 10. So I think there are these principles that guide, you know, the that credibility comes from a genuine, humble spirit, listening with curiosity, clarity on what is important needs to include finding common ground, even as you're trying to challenge what is, you know, before you and seeking to be constructive for whose benefits, you know, to glorify God So in any given moment, you know, statements may or may not be made. But if the underlying attitude, the underlying posture is as as I've, you know, articulated is the ones that drive you, I think that is absolutely essential for navigating this kind of complex work.

00;16;30;09 - 00;16;59;06
Michael Martin
I love so much of what you just said. But another question would be, you know, just how do we because our posture is so important and kind of in an ongoing sense, like these times can also be just really hard and really draining. And maybe all of the reserves that we had built up to have that posture are suddenly depleted. You know, how do we continue to stay encouraged in that way? How do we continue to reinforce that posture?

00;16;59;06 - 00;17;48;17
Walter Kim
Hmm. I think coming back to what informed the early church and we see this time and time again, there's a sense that the momentary light afflictions will be outweighed by this eternal weight of glory and as real and as challenging as the situation may be in the temporal context, the God really in the end will be victorious. We can be assured of that, that his purposes will prevail and that our place in this is is one in which he secures ultimately the fruit that he desires.

00;17;49;26 - 00;18;16;28
Walter Kim
And every once in a while I have to be honest, there is a sense of the crushing weight of the responsibilities, the crushing weight that if I just don't get this right, Am I going to leave a wake of chaos and destruction that that will besmirch the name of Christ and that the possibilities real. So I'm not diminishing in some kind of Pollyannish way that all will be made, right?

00;18;18;05 - 00;18;46;17
Walter Kim
There are real consequences, but the grace of God is so great that even my failures are wrapped up in his faithfulness ultimately, and that that produces a tremendous amount of confidence. But it also produces the sense that the work is not intended to be immediate. You know, the prayer, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

00;18;47;12 - 00;19;28;16
Walter Kim
Was not answered in Jesus' own lifetime. Hmm. And if the Son of God himself could not accomplish all of that prayer in the three years of his earthly ministry, who am I to think that three years, three decades would even be sufficient God has ordained things to be one in which the kingdom unfolds over time as that mustard seed And we will be surprised at the ways that it sprouts. But we need to bear patiently with the fact that our timing is not his timing and that we just play our role in the unfolding of God's kingdom.

00;19;30;02 - 00;20;25;29
Michael Martin
That's exactly right. Those are some just some great scriptural anchors and great practical reminders, I think, for all of us as leaders and helping us have that proper perspective and health. And so I'm so grateful for those words that you shared and I do want to switch gears a little bit and come back to another kind of identity type conversation. And that is just even at a basic level, the importance of the word evangelical in our names. So you're the leader of the National Association of Evangelicals here with the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability in times like these, we do see for various reasons folks saying, you know, maybe that that name is not for us anymore and turning away from the use of the word evangelical. So tell us a little bit about what you see there. Maybe even start with a basic definition of how do we define who is an evangelical.

00;20;27;17 - 00;21;03;17
Walter Kim
Well, as you know, and many of our listeners may know, the term evangelical comes from ultimately the Greek term for good news, euangelion. And then over time becomes Anglicized into Evangelical. So what it means to be evangelical is, in fact, to be good news people. And the term is not an American concoction I mean, 500 years ago, before the Protestants were known as Protestants in Germany, they were known as Evangelicals.

00;21;03;18 - 00;21;32;28
Walter Kim
That was the preferred self-identification of Martin Luther. And his belief was a deep desire that there was a renewing movement in the church to get back to the good news of Christ salvation for all the proclamation of it having a inform every day life, having the scriptures be a part of everyday life and the cleansing and purification of the church.

00;21;32;28 - 00;22;10;23
Walter Kim
And so the term evangelical, you know, essentially is about coming back to some core convictions and and how do we flesh that out? Well, you know, as the historian Babington from England is marked out in very helpful ways, to be an evangelical means to have a commitment to a very high view of scripture and its authority in our life to note the importance of a conversion to Christ that was real and personal I think of Wesley's own John Wesley's own conversion, which was prototypical evangelical.

00;22;10;23 - 00;22;41;03
Walter Kim
This great leader of the British evangelical movement, talking about how his heart was strangely warmed by this sense that he had been forgiven by Christ of his sins. So this this sense of personal conversion to Christ. And and and that brings us to this real high view of the cross as the the work of God in this world to secure the forgiveness of sins and the transformation of our lives.

00;22;41;03 - 00;23;15;13
Walter Kim
So being Bible centered on having this sense of conversion and whatever form it takes, dramatic or over time, an understanding that the cross is kind of cross centered life of forgiveness through Christ and and actually this sense that all of this is not merely about personal transformation, but about our activism in this world. And I often think about Jesus in his introduction of himself to the world.

00;23;15;13 - 00;23;45;00
Walter Kim
In Luke Chapter four, he unrolls the scroll, and as he introduces himself to the congregation, the synagogue in Nazareth, that thought they knew him as a child, of Nazareth, he chooses to unroll the scroll of Isaiah to Chapter 61, and Jesus could have chosen any passages he could have in his sovereignty. Introduce Himself any way he wanted to, to the world, what he stood for, why he came into the world, he unrolls it.

00;23;45;00 - 00;24;15;17
Walter Kim
And there we we find that the Spirit of God has anointed Him to proclaim good news to the poor man's liberty, to the prisoner for sight, for the blind, you know, and in this sense of freedom for the oppressed. Now, it didn't mention the forgiveness of sins. Of course, the Ministry of Jesus makes it very, very clear that the good news is fundamentally

00;24;15;17 - 00;24;39;17
Walter Kim
the forgiveness of sins that leads to all of these things. But he chose to emphasize these things. I think of Jesus as the first evangelical because he was the first proclaimer of this good news. And the good news he talked about was one that really saw the social implications of this good news, not only that, he proclaimed, but that he was and is.

00;24;40;18 - 00;25;28;24
Walter Kim
So this sense of the social outworking of the gospel in the transformation of the poor, the liberation of those in prison, working with those on the margins with disabilities. This is essential to evangelical identity. So I go at length about that because you know the term really sociologically and in the political discourse in which we currently live in the news cycles, it is easy to see ways in which the term evangelical has been reduced to a political affiliation or a cultural stance or a historic semblance of civic religion in America.

00;25;29;26 - 00;26;08;12
Walter Kim
And that does a great disservice to Jesus who I think of as the first evangelical, the first good news proclaimer. And the richness of that tradition. So I'm not ready to give it up because whatever the term really captures this sense over time that God, God proclaims good news and it's personally, individually, institutionally, societally transformative. I don't want to be a part of that. And I think the work of recovering the centrality of what it means to be an evangelical is essential.

00;26;09;12 - 00;26;48;05
Michael Martin
So good. Yeah. I'm glad that you covered some of those points, especially there at the end, because I was going to ask you, you know, well, what are we to do with. Yes, it's a beautiful biblical term, but what are we to do, you know, with some of the baggage and some of the things? And so I guess at a real practical level, too, Walter, for leaders who even wrestle with using that word to identify themselves or identify their organization when they're asked that question, you know, do you consider yourself an evangelical or why is that term in your name? Whenever there is some of this other baggage and things that are attached to it, how do we articulate that well? How do we respond?

00;26;48;20 - 00;27;17;05
Walter Kim
Yeah. I think there are you know, three things. One is kind of go back to what do we mean by evangelical? And if it is, as I articulated earlier, then I would say I would love this is this is what it means for me to be a follower of Jesus, to have these commitments and in a posture of engagement and not disassociation from society and culture, but a deep engagement to bless the culture.

00;27;17;24 - 00;27;46;27
Walter Kim
So that's one thing. The second thing is, you know, the sense of being connected and the younger generation, I think, is really coming back to that. I think there's a reason why liturgy is finding a resurgence. I think there's a reason why architecture is being reconsidered of sacred architecture and and a deep desire in the fragmentation of our society to be rooted in something deeper than the latest tweet.

00;27;48;22 - 00;28;24;02
Walter Kim
And this desire to be connected to history. I think it is absolutely vital for us to be connected to the historic tradition of evangelicalism, to learn from past successes and failures. So, you know, the second reason I would give is not only because you know, evangelicalism is, you know, a wonderful identification of the spirit of faith that I would wish to affirm, but it also is a connection to centuries of God's work of renewal.

00;28;24;18 - 00;28;51;18
Walter Kim
And I would even argue going back to the very way that Christ himself presented himself to the world. The third thing that I would suggest is it connects us not only to the depth of history but to the breadth of what's God doing in this world. It's a very American thing to jettison a term when it's inconvenient for us as Americans.

00;28;52;23 - 00;29;18;16
Walter Kim
One of the first things I did as president of the NAE was even before I just started my my term, it was kind of a pre work of my work as president. I attended the World Evangelical Alliance's General Assembly in Jakarta, Indonesia, back in November of 2019. And there you know representatives from 90 different countries were in attendance.

00;29;18;25 - 00;29;51;16
Walter Kim
800 delegates from 90 different countries representing hundreds of millions of evangelicals. And there was a panel discussion there about the state of evangelicalism in the world. It was composed of people from Africa and Asia, from South America, from Europe. There wasn't a North American on it. And it was real vibrant sense of God at work. And they all came to the conclusion of regardless of what's happening in America.

00;29;52;02 - 00;30;23;20
Walter Kim
The term evangelical is very meaningful, fruitful and important for what's happening in the global church. And I thought walking away, I want to hold on to this term, because why in the world would I wish to disassociate myself from the work of God, good news, work of God that's happening with my brothers and sisters throughout the world. So it's not only a connection to the historic depth of this renewal movement.

00;30;24;09 - 00;31;04;02
Walter Kim
It's a connection to the global breadth right now. And I think we owe it to our brothers and sisters to move from this kind of patriarchal view of American Christians to a view of partnership and to humbly acknowledge. Yeah, let's get this term evangelical right, because we want to be in partnership with what's happening in the global church. And I think that's absolutely exciting to own the term evangelical as a of a note, an expression of affectionate solidarity with God's work in this world.

00;31;17;02 - 00;31;47;04
Michael Martin
Wow. You've given us a lot to think about there. I think that's great perspective. You know, another kind of identity question or, you know, trends question, and you and I have talked a little bit about this before, too, but just as it relates to kind of names and labels and things, many leaders are also hearing more. So this term exvangelical and, you know, definitions are really important and that can mean different things in different contexts.

00;31;47;04 - 00;32;16;23
Michael Martin
But I know a lot of leaders are wrestling with that as well. As people are either maybe leaving the faith entirely or certain aspects or walking away from just some of the core tenets of evangelicalism. And so we're in this age of, you know, deconstruction, if you will, and all. And so, yeah, give us a little bit of a snapshot of first of all, what's going on, actually, what's going on. And then maybe we can also talk about how do we best respond to that?

00;32;17;02 - 00;32;52;21
Walter Kim
Yeah. Yeah, it's a whole exvangelical movement. You used the term deconstruction and this kind of loss of faith in faith itself, in the expression of faith as experienced within the evangelical tradition, oftentimes and predominantly so I would say within this experience of white conservative evangelicalism, which I take some care to mention that not to cast aspersions on on that segment of Christianity, but it is a segment of Christianity.

00;32;52;25 - 00;33;32;09
Walter Kim
So as as I, you know, mentioned, I'm the son of refugee and immigrants. I'm an Asian-American man. And the evangelicalism that exists and immigrant churches or the historic black church or other segments of our society is evangelicalism. But this experience of cultural Christianity that found itself expressed in the evangelical tradition at first I would wish to say my concern is not so much about a label.

00;33;32;26 - 00;34;01;23
Walter Kim
And despite being president of the NAE. My concern really is for people's faith, their experience of the love of God. Their ability to enter into the community of God and to be part of the work of the kingdom of God. And I think it's a real thing that damage has occurred in the lives of people. And that absolutely grieves me.

00;34;02;08 - 00;34;49;15
Walter Kim
I have worked long enough as a pastor to understand that, yes, churches are full of sinners redeemed sinners, hopefully, and in the process of ever greater redemption, but nonetheless, sinners who have inflicted tremendous harm on one another. So my first posture would be one of grief, not of judgment. It would be one of acknowledgment and a desire to listen as we began our conversation, to listen with curiosity to understand that, you know, the job first and foremost is not just to correct, it's to care.

00;34;50;10 - 00;35;19;02
Walter Kim
And that care needs to take seriously the hurts. But I would also say again, because I've come outside of the evangelical tradition, I've had certain set of experience things that have been incredibly powerful. Life-Giving and I wouldn't be in this work if I did not experience Christ and the church in those ways. And so my deeper desire is not to bring people back into the fold of evangelicalism.

00;35;19;02 - 00;35;44;11
Walter Kim
It is to the hope that there could be a reintroduction to God and to the Christ who really is a proclaimers of good news, who may have very challenging things to say about one's own sin. Not only that you've been sinned against, but you are part of a world in which you sin. But there is deep, deep redemptive power in.

00;35;44;16 - 00;36;13;15
Walter Kim
And who Christ is and who, as imperfect as it is, lived out. The churches and that the work of this kingdom that God has given to us is one that really is for the blessing of the cities. In which we live, the communities in which we live. And so a reintroduction to that God, to that Christ. I think that that's at the heart of my desire.

00;36;13;26 - 00;36;42;23
Walter Kim
So, yes, to grieve, to to listen and to care for rather than critique, that's the first posture. And the second posture that I would have is I would wish to reintroduce in a journey of mutual discovery what it is that we mean, the Jesus Christ is has come into the world to save, to redeem and that the church is intended to be his people.

00;36;44;16 - 00;37;09;10
Michael Martin
And I think what I'm hearing you say is that's a bit of that concept of reconstruction right? But as we see the term like deconstruction and even just on a practical level, you know. Yeah. What what does that mean? Is that always bad or are there good aspects to that? Is that a biblical thing? Just as leaders as we see that term. I'd love for you to just shed some light on that for us.

00;37;10;28 - 00;37;35;13
Walter Kim
Yeah. I mean, as terms go, you know, deconstruction is a general term that has been used in all sorts of philosophical movements or just, you know, just a general term to say we've got to break things apart. And there is an edifice, a life experience that needs to be broken down into its parts to understand why there is this experience of trauma and disappointment and therefore rejection.

00;37;36;19 - 00;38;35;25
Walter Kim
And part of that deconstructive work is I would say, the work that all Christians are called to. I think of Romans chapter seven and what Paul does in deconstructing his own soul, "Wretched man that I am who will set me free from this body of sin," you know, this sense that the good that I want to do, I don't do the evil that I don't want to do, I do. So Scripture actually gives us a example of deconstruction that goes down to the very marrow of the soul. But chapter seven of Romans is followed by chapter eight, this amazing chapter of reconstruction. "There's therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." "Our spirits cry out Abba Father" And this, this beautiful sense that nothing will separate us from the love of Christ.

00;38;36;26 - 00;39;09;21
Walter Kim
And so if the work of deconstruction leaves us in cynicism, in hopelessness, if the work of deconstruction doesn't have a larger goal of rerouting us then then I think it is a kind of an impulse of despair, part of this of culture, of despair that in and of itself, is powerful because it is a necessary right to take seriously any problem that we have.

00;39;09;22 - 00;39;34;29
Walter Kim
We have to deconstruct our families of origin, our life experiences, our own proclivities and personalities and our own sin nature. Whether or not you want to use that term anymore as an exvangelical or persons repudiated faith. I think we can all agree that there is something amiss, you know, in our lives but we are never intended to live in that place of despair.

00;39;36;00 - 00;40;07;00
Walter Kim
We are intended to reconstruct and no one's on the same timeframe. There's no like, okay, this is, you know, deconstruction for a month and then followed by reconstruction next month. I mean, it just doesn't work that way. And that's where the personal relationships are so important. To journey with other people. Maybe it's a month, maybe it's three months, you know, three years. But a persistence of leading and working with people out of cynicism to some reconstructive effort of of building faith back up.

00;40;08;07 - 00;40;38;13
Michael Martin
Right. There's a real healthy aspect to all that process. And and just how do we how do we come along? I like that you use the word it's a journey for different people. And whether it's friends or coworkers, you know, others that come to us and just say, you know, being honest, I have some questions or I'm walking through a process like, what is the right way to what's a biblical approach to really being able to be that community that journeys together? How do we do that well?

00;40;38;27 - 00;41;17;00
Walter Kim
Yeah, you know, there's this really interesting scene in Acts where Paul and Barnabas part ways, and they have an argument over what to do with John Mark. And John Mark had lost his nerve on the first missionary journey. Paul and Barnabas brought him along and invested in this, you know, young leader, up-and-coming leader within early Christianity and we don't know all the details of it, but there was a loss of nerve. And Paul was like, you know, the mission's too important,

00;41;17;00 - 00;41;41;12
Walter Kim
we got to go. And there's truth to that. So I'm not here to adjudicate whether or not Paul or Barnabas was right. I think they were both right because both are needed in the kingdom of God. The mission needs to proceed, and so Paul did that. But Barnabas chose the route that while it is true that the mission needs to proceed and there are people that in and of themselves are the mission.

00;41;41;24 - 00;42;13;11
Walter Kim
And he chose the way as the son of encouragement to bring Mark back. And as church history tells us, that worked because at the end of Paul's life in Second Timothy, who does he want to visit him in prison just before he dies? He asks, Timothy, can you send Mark along? Have him bring some of the the scrolls of scripture.

00;42;13;11 - 00;42;44;19
Walter Kim
You know, something warm to wear. And we learn from church history. That this John Mark that lost his nerve. But Barnabas journeyed with restored to faith over years of walking together was the one who wrote the Gospel of Mark. I mean, what an extraordinary example in Scripture itself. So here are the things I take away it's a commitment of time.

00;42;47;06 - 00;43;14;00
Walter Kim
It will take time. It's a commitment of proximity. You can't do this from afar. You have to have life together. So it's not just quality time. It is a quantity of time because you cannot manage when a person will be ready to be vulnerable. It could be in the strangest of moments that you're on the treadmills next to each other.

00;43;14;00 - 00;43;56;13
Walter Kim
And it's just that moment that happens to be, "Hey, can we really take some time to chat?" You just can't manage this moment. So it takes proximity to be ready for this kind of serendipitous work of God. But it also takes intentionality. It's more than just let's you know, let's be around each other. Let's be listening ear. It takes the intentionality of having a vision for this person, which I think Barnabas must have had this vision of who Mark could be in the Kingdom of God, who he was as a child, made in the image of God.

00;43;57;13 - 00;44;31;25
Walter Kim
And so having an intentional vision of not to make people a project, but to recognize that people are, in fact intended to be renewed in their lives. And you are participating in God's work of intentional renewal So having this kind of prayerful intentionality and and desire to move conversations in certain directions, I think those are all vital in in the work of journeying with other people.

00;44;48;21 - 00;45;26;12
Michael Martin
That's awesome, that's so helpful. Just as we all navigate these times and walk through that. What great examples and there's one other area that I really like to explore with you, and that is here at ECFA our mission is enhancing trust in Christ centered churches and ministries we really believe in the power of trust. And so I want to ask you, as we really kind of just wrap up so many aspects of this conversation and what's happening within evangelicalism and culture and so on. My question for you is, do you think that evangelicals have a trust problem and if so, what do we do about it?

00;45;26;25 - 00;46;00;12
Walter Kim
Yeah, well, we do have trust problem, and it's you know, myriads. And there's trust problems within the community as evangelicalism has come sorted out into different streams and tribes within the evangelical movement that have come to question one another. So there's trust issues within the movement itself. But mind you, historically, that's very much been the case among the people of God.

00;46;00;12 - 00;46;31;17
Walter Kim
We are, as I have said earlier, a fallen people. Redeemed, being redeemed even more, but nonetheless sinful. So there's trust issues within there's also trust issues without, you know, kind of toward the outside community that have deeply questioned, are we a presence of good? Are we a blessing to the country or we sources of increased polarization? I also think there's a trust issue with respect to God.

00;46;33;04 - 00;47;12;11
Walter Kim
To what extent are we really entrusting solutions that do not reflect the way of Christ? You know, trusting in political machinations or trusting in a technique of ministry to resolve things, trusting in what is so true of the American entrepreneurial spirit. We are a country of immigrants who have come because they have all in their DNA. Some sort of courageous, risk-taking, entrepreneurial spirit.

00;47;12;27 - 00;47;50;27
Walter Kim
What else will get you on a boat, a plane to come to a country and start anew? Right. So there's something within the psyche that's like that. But I think that results that results in a kind of Christianity that often is quick to trust our own abilities to find a ten step solution to a problem or, you know, some kind of mnemonic tool or acronym to get us along, rather than what the Persecuted Church throughout the world knows.

00;47;50;27 - 00;48;19;27
Walter Kim
As I've talked about our brothers and sisters in the global church, where a faith is not a reduction to a technique but it is a desperate dependance upon God. And I think we have a trust issue. We have the luxury of life in America. And we need to have this kind of desperate faith. And trust is absolutely essential because what other currency do we have?

00;48;19;27 - 00;48;55;23
Walter Kim
Ultimately, the influence of the gospel is is one of moral influence that's predicated on trust. You cannot enforce people. You should not mandate their conversions. It is on the basis of a winsome presentation a lived life of faith that that has that kind of influence. And so, yeah, there are some serious trust issues, perhaps maybe more pronounced in our particular moment and very specific to our particular moment.

00;48;56;09 - 00;49;24;25
Walter Kim
But there are also trust issues that are just the perpetual perennial trust issues of what it means to be human. We are, by nature, tribal we are by nature, you know, tends to be suspicious of others. We're sinful and we like our own solutions rather than depending upon God. And that's just the perennial problem of humanity that we have. Underlying the particular problem of our moment.

00;49;26;03 - 00;50;01;00
Michael Martin
Well, and such a good reminder, too, that ultimately, you know, the more Christlike we become, the more we can be trusted So that's such a good word. Well, I want to end here, too, with so much of what you shared has been incredibly helpful already. But if folks want to continue to engage in the work of NAE, what are some other ways that you're helping? On a practical level, where do folks turn to to you for resources and and also how do they just stay in touch with what's going on at NAE?

00;50;01;15 - 00;50;24;23
Walter Kim
Yeah, I would encourage folks. Thank you, Michael. It's very kind of you. I would encourage folks to go to our website, NAE.org, and there's a wealth of resources there that you could look up and gain on any particular issue. But there's one document that I would point people's attention to, and that is a document called "For The Health Of The Nation."

00;50;25;13 - 00;51;05;29
Walter Kim
And in it is laid out principles of what does it mean for us as evangelicals to engage civilly in the civic issues of our day. And then what does it mean to have a biblical perspective on some of the great issues that confront us? And there are eight different issues that we lay out. I mean, it's not, you know, encompassing everything that Christians need to be concerned about, but it does given a theological and practical imagination of the breadth and the comprehensive scope of what it means to be good news people.

00;51;05;29 - 00;51;58;09
Walter Kim
That document I would highly encourage folks to go to it enables us to see what does it look like to be engaged in civic society and not become partisan in our political affiliations in a way that is polarizing and divisive. Of course, we're going to have differences of of course. In the end, people will vote differently. But the manner in which we hold our positions, as well as what those positions are, the scope of which we consider the implications of faith touching upon these, I think are captured in that document. So I'd like to just point people straight to that document "For The Health Of The Nation." You can find it at www.NAE.org.

00;51;59;02 - 00;52;06;04
Michael Martin
Very good. Well, we'll also include a link to that in the notes to the podcast as well. You said, for the good of the nation?

00;52;06;12 - 00;52;07;15
Walter Kim
"For The Health Of The Nation"

00;52;07;15 - 00;52;24;27
Michael Martin
"For The Health Of The Nation." Okay. All right. Well, very good. Walter, thank you so much for just investing your time. And so many great insights in today's conversation. We appreciate it so much and we appreciate your leadership and we are cheering you on and grateful for all that you and NAE are doing.

00;52;25;21 - 00;52;39;27
Walter Kim
Michael, thank you. What a joy this has been. And thank you for the work that you're doing in helping Christian organizations to live with integrity. And that is vital to this process of trust and honoring God.

00;52;40;23 - 00;52;45;07
Michael Martin
Well, thank you. Yep. It's our pleasure. Look forward to the next time we get the opportunity to be together.