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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.486)
Hello. How are you?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:01.752)
Hi.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:05.166)
I'm a bit tired because we were on the road all day yesterday.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:09.894)
I accidentally am live streaming. So this means somebody could join us on YouTube. Well, hi, if anyone watches this on YouTube, that was an accident, but cool. Let's see what happens. We're gonna talk about messy stuff. We're doing our new trial formula or format where we each share a little messy something and then talk about it. So you wanna, do you have something in mind? Yeah, but I can always wait.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:12.822)
Hi, if you're joining us.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:26.145)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:33.304)
Do you?
No, go for it. I'm excited to hear yours. Or I'm interested, I'm curious.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:37.734)
Okay, mine's extremely timely because it is something I'm gonna be doing tonight. There is a board meeting for my kids school district tonight and a group of parents are going to talk about inequity in the school district, specifically the north part of our school district, which if you know anything about St. Louis, North County has become a predominantly black part of St. Louis.
and a predominantly lower income part of St. Louis. So it's it's predominantly black. It's also a lot of like blue collar white folks, blue collar black folks. It's like a more blue collar, lower income and not very racially diverse part of St. Louis. So there's like the East part of St. Louis, which is similar and now more and more like it's kind of moving north, right? As
Taina Brown she/hers (01:11.693)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:25.709)
Okay. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:34.34)
white flight continues in St. Louis and white people just keep moving more and more west and south. Okay, so that's just sort of the demographics of St. Louis so people know. We live in the north part of our school district, which is not, I don't know that we're technically North County St. Louis, but we are in the more northern eastern area of our school district. Our school district is largely affluent and white.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:53.777)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:02.182)
the part of the school district that we are in is the least affluent and the least white. Right now, as I've talked about before in our school district, my son's school is one of the most diverse schools in the city and state. It is what I love about the school. His school district, or his school in particular is about 44-ish. So somewhere between 40 and 45 % white, 30-ish % black, and then...
the remaining 30 % is made up of primarily South Asian and then Hispanic and what, you know, there's some other demographics there. But it's largely black and white, but the numbers are so vastly different than most of St. Louis, where most schools here are 80 to 90 % white or 80, 90 % black, right? Not a lot of diversity. We have great diversity. Our school does.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:40.281)
Mm-hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (02:55.942)
the middle school it feeds into does, the high school it feeds into does, because there's about three or four elementary schools in our area that are all fairly equally in the same diversity makeup, some a little less, but for the most part, they're all about the same and they all feed the same middle school and then that feeds into the high school. So his high school, the demographics are about the same. That's very different than almost every other school.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:04.838)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:22.616)
ladder in our district where it's far more white. I mean, not that our area isn't affluent, but we are not as affluent as the rest of the school district. All of that is to set up that our school in particular, because of where we are located, there are several hotels that have converted into short-term stays.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:23.649)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:46.954)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:47.686)
This is a fairly recent phenomenon in the last five-ish years, really COVID and maybe a little before, right? That sort of changed a lot of needs around here. And as we know, housing prices are astronomical. That has happened in our area as well. It's very difficult for people to find places to live, all of the economic realities of life since COVID and beyond. So we have all of these short-term housing areas from hotels that are now serving as short-term housing.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:03.999)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:15.076)
That means that we have a very sort of transient population in our school in particular, because these things had been, this area was zoned into our school eight years ago when our school was much smaller because this area had gotten older and other areas had more young people. And so now our area has turned over, there's lots of young families. So there's influx of people coming into our school just from the...
Taina Brown she/hers (04:18.796)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:39.846)
permanent housing around here. And then there are a lot of folks who are, because our school district is a desirable school district, and because it is more diverse and better funded than some of the other districts not far from here in technical North County, there's a lot of folks who are trying to find ways to access these school systems, right? Rightfully so, because by the way, all schools, all children should have access to equally quality public education. That is not the reality of what happens because it's funded by.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:52.905)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:04.187)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:08.506)
property taxes to a large extent. So where you live really matters. So we have a large transient population, people who are moving in and out of these short-term housing areas to try and access the schools, but also because they need places to live. I love that it adds to the beautiful tapestry of the student body that we have, right? It does present a problem for educators because when you have students that are coming in, like we have students sort of rolling in and out all year long.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:37.106)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:37.37)
That puts a real strain on the educators, right? Because now they're having to, just in the same way, like if you're somebody who owns a business, when you have a new client come aboard, there's an onboarding process that happens, right? It takes time to get someone up to the system, to understand how things work here and what needs do you have and how do I help you and get you acquainted and into our system. That process takes time. So obviously it takes...
Taina Brown she/hers (05:54.548)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:04.748)
extra resources to do that work so that you can help those students and then that can cost other students. How our schools are funded is, let me also say, our district, it's third, one of its like, I think number three on its list of core values that it just passed around the same time of COVID is equity, right? Specifically, they use the word equity, not equality, equity.
Funding happens equally. So all of the elementary students, all the elementary schools are getting funded in an equal way, right? Like a per pupil idea of like, here's how much money you get. And it doesn't take into account anything else about the needs of that particular building and how those may vary from school to school. That is equality. That is not equity.
Our school has some really unique needs, partially because of this transient, I hate that word, but because of, and that's the word that they're using, but because of our changing, our evolving student base and the type of housing that we have in our area, we have a greater need. Because also many of those students, and it's not just them, it's also our other students, but we have a large number of students who need interventions. They need extra help.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:13.31)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:31.794)
They're behind, they have additional needs that they are supposed to be, by government laws, receiving interventions for. If anyone knows anything about an IEP, and there's other things as well, but the government requires student needs to be met. And we got something that was the idea of inclusion. When we got rid of, as many of us may remember from our youth,
Taina Brown she/hers (07:38.474)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:57.488)
we had separate, like the kids who needed, had special needs, they had their own spaces, right? And then the average learners were in there in the normal classrooms, at the regular classrooms. And then the special, like the advanced students went into their spaces. Like we were all very separated back when our childhood. And then inclusion came along and it said, let's integrate these classrooms so that all the students are experiencing everyone no matter where they're at. I think that's a lovely thing, right? It means that my son,
Taina Brown she/hers (08:00.99)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:23.556)
We just had parent-teacher conferences last night. I was told that my son, there was a student who's very differently abled. Somebody, one of the kindergartners came to their class and said, why do you look like that? And my son immediately came over and was like, that's his superpower. That's what makes him awesome, whatever, right? He wouldn't have that in the old days, right? He wouldn't have that exposure. I love it. However, when we bring different need, students with different varying degrees of needs and abilities into the same classroom, that brings with it more challenges.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:42.503)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:52.97)
One teacher trying to manage 20 to 30 kids who are all at very different places, right, is challenging. So some of these students have additional teachers who come in to help them. Many of them have requirements that aren't being met in our building. Because we have such a high need, high level of need, when you have students who are constantly moving, they're gonna fall behind. That is not to say there's anything inherently wrong with the child. It's because they're constantly moving. It's very hard to stay at.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:53.03)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:56.403)
with different needs, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:12.999)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:18.855)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:19.736)
level when you are always in that place of I'm just trying to get acquainted and then I'm moving into a new, right? So all of this. So we're having a school board meeting. We have a group of parents. I'm just trying to lay the land for you because some parents approached me and said, hey, we're getting together. We know that you are sort of politically aligned with us. Would you want to come to a meeting? I'm like, I don't know what this is about, but OK, it's about equity. I'm into that. It's a group of white women.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:25.574)
Yeah. So what's happening tonight?
Becky Mollenkamp (09:49.264)
So this is where it gets messy and where I'm excited to hear what you have to say. And if y'all are listening, I don't know because I try to keep this part of my life separate from like that other part of my life, but people may discover me. I'm excited about what we're doing. I wanna be clear about that. However, it is a group of about 10 to 15 white moms who are coming together to talk about the fact that we are disappointed in the.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:52.296)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:10.343)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:16.111)
funding, the way things are being funded, right? That there's this focus on equity and yet we're looking at what looks like equality and it's leaving our student body, not just our school, although primarily our school, but these other schools that feed into the North High School, is the predominantly black and lower affluent school in the district. In fact, one of the more affluent schools apparently came to one of our football games at the high school and shouted poverty the whole time.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:18.626)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:23.11)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:44.142)
So that says something about what's happening. Yeah, they chanted poverty. So yeah, that's, we're not, by the way, this is not, not that there's anything, that shouldn't happen anywhere, but we actually don't live in a like poor area. It's just not like the West side of our district that's very wealthy. Okay, so we're getting together. We're having these conversations and talking about going to the board to say, we want to see things be funded more equitably because our students are falling behind.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:45.732)
my god, what the fuck?
Taina Brown she/hers (10:58.065)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:13.604)
And what that means is because of all of these issues I've discussed, we have teachers leaving. We have a very high turnover rate, way higher than any of the other schools around us for turnover because our teachers are getting burned out. They are being asked to do too much with too little. And we don't have enough space. And we don't have enough funding, both of those things. So I'm going to quickly read what I'm going to say tonight. I want to plan to say tonight. And I would love your feedback because I think all of what I just said, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (11:26.037)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:42.298)
All right, so thank you for the opportunity to speak. I'm a proud parent of this school. I'm not gonna give school names. I'm not here tonight to complain about our student population. In fact, we chose the school for the reason that our child would be in a truly diverse area, a rare thing in St. Louis. I love our student body exactly as it is and that our principal is an unwavering advocate for diversity and inclusion. My concern is what appears to be an unfair allocation of resources in the north side of our school district as a whole and at the school in particular.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:48.288)
.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:11.13)
We have about 10 % more students than expected this year, again, because of the population changes that are happening. And we simply don't have enough building space to meet the needs. Also, I understand that we have students who need specialist interventions who aren't having those needs adequately met due to a lack of resources. Those challenges burden already overburdened educators, which may be part of the reason our school is losing so many teachers and counselors to other schools within the district. I don't want to see our talented teachers leave. This is a big bec-
Taina Brown she/hers (12:17.911)
.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:40.9)
Big concern because the sad reality is, and here's where I'm interested to hear more, Tiana, about which thing. The sad reality is that parents with greater means are talking about leaving the north part of the school district or leaving Parkway schools altogether. If the most privileged families leave, I worry our schools will go the way of most other area schools and lose the beautiful diversity that attracted me and so many others to this school.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:44.903)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:04.184)
Equity does not mean equality, yet my understanding is that this district allocates resources equally among schools regardless of differences in needs. I urge you to consider how you can do better to live into your core value of equity by ensuring that resources are allocated in a way that those with the greatest needs aren't left behind. So that's what I want to say.
What I'm clearly saying is, and what the reality is, I'm hearing from more and more white families that they're considering leaving because there is such a high turnover of teachers and they're worried their kids just aren't getting the quality of education that they could get if they went somewhere else. That may be true. And yet, if we don't stay, what happens is I worry our school will quickly become like the school my husband teaches at in the north side of this, in the actual north county, 99 % black.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:33.841)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:41.871)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:55.366)
I don't worry about the school being 99 % black. I worry about the school not having diversity and that we are in a rare pocket where that happens. And if we aren't careful, we're gonna lose that. So all of this, now you've got the scene. What do you think about what I have to say? Like what I plan to say? And what are your thoughts about the fact that we are a group of white women coming together to have this conversation?
Taina Brown she/hers (14:02.011)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:24.772)
I cede the floor to you.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:26.702)
hahahaha
Becky Mollenkamp (14:28.558)
It feels messy. The whole thing does feel really messy to me and yet feels important.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:30.957)
Yeah. Yeah. So let me make sure I'm tracking before I give my opinion because I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. So this group of moms, they're going to the meeting tonight to address funding or address lack of or address
Becky Mollenkamp (14:39.334)
Please.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:57.562)
What am I trying to ask? Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:57.766)
Primarily funding, right? It's about our school, we need more space or, and this is part of what we talked about, how do we show up to make it clear that we're not saying we want, because some of it could be redistricting. But that, don't want that. That may end up being a necessary reality, but my fear is when we talk redistricting, we know what happens. And that doesn't always happen in a fair way, right? It just looks like, then let's cut off all these kids that are in the hotels and make another school deal with them.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:02.535)
See you later.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:14.544)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:22.608)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:26.916)
That's not what we want, right? I don't want to, and that's why I'm trying to be clear. I'm not upset about the student population. And yet our kids are not getting what they need. So how do we figure that out in a way that is fair? And I don't know what that looks like, but so.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:41.729)
Yeah, I think where I'm at with like the moms is there's a difference in intention when you say something like, if this funding issue isn't addressed, I'm pulling my kid out versus.
We need this funding issue addressed so I can keep my kid in. Right? Like those feel different, right? Like one feels like an ultimatum and one feels more like...
Becky Mollenkamp (16:13.072)
green.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:19.236)
almost collaborative, like what are we gonna do about this, right? And so my concern is from a racial perspective, like I don't know what the race makeup is of the majority of your school board or whoever's gonna be at this meeting, right? Like my concern is if it comes across as an ultimatum that that's...
Becky Mollenkamp (16:34.458)
white.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:47.601)
not really going to affect any change because we know that like if a white person says or we can expect, we can expect that fairly, I think we can expect that a majority white audience will be like, well then just take your kids to another better school because the kids who were not as invested in the kids who will be left behind. And so that's
Becky Mollenkamp (16:49.733)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:14.17)
Y'all!
Taina Brown she/hers (17:17.248)
my concern and so I think the approach is very important and I think also
People who, school boards are political, right? They're political.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:35.344)
Yeah, I mean, they're elected. Yeah, they're strictly political and it's also all the other ways everything's political.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:41.492)
Yeah, yeah, and so I think.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:48.741)
Speaking from like a purely strategic point of view, like I'm not sure that I would bring up how...
there's a difference between equality and equity. I don't think that argument is gonna matter to them. I think what's gonna matter is what that means, right? Like how that's practiced, like what's actually done versus what you call it. And so, and not that the difference between equality and equity doesn't matter. It does matter. Language matters, right? Because words mean things. You can't just change the meanings of words, willy-nilly, right?
But when you're in a political situation, especially given just like the national climate, like those words can immediately be put off. Like they can immediately put somebody off. And so, and when that happens, like they're not gonna hear whatever else you have to say. And so I would just, again.
the words that you use, like the way that you choose to frame this, I think is gonna be really important. And this is my own strategic political maneuvering mind, right? And I think then once some change can be implemented or once people are open to the conversation about, how actually are we distributing funds, not in a way that's equal, but in a way that's meeting the needs of each independent school.
Once that conversation is happening, then you can bring up, this is actually what equity looks like. I think before what we were doing was equality, but this is actually equity.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:34.63)
It's so interesting because we talked about, you're hitting on some of the things we've talked about because we were like, I was one of the people, one of the voices in the room saying, I don't think we should be focusing on the student population, like hitting on this idea of the transient population and stuff and or even really the racial makeup. Although I want to talk about the fact that we love the diversity because I don't want it to look like.
we're a bunch of white women coming in to complain that like our white kids aren't getting a good education because we have these, you know, trans people, these black kids, and that's not at all the case. And I will say every person in this room, the reason we want to fight is because of exactly what we said. We don't want to leave. We want to stay and fight. We don't want to be the people who are just like, well, we can buy another house, so we'll just move. Like that's the easy way out of this. And that is not what I want because anywhere I move, I know I'm going to take my kid, my white male child,
Taina Brown she/hers (20:04.901)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:13.857)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:20.909)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:28.048)
from a truly diverse school to a less diverse situation where he is going, it will necessarily change his relationship with white supremacy in his life, right? And I don't wanna see that happen. And as we've discussed before, I also don't wanna be in a school that's not diverse the other way. I don't wanna be in a school that's not diverse either way. I don't want him to be the minority, I don't want him to be the majority. I want it to be exactly like it is right now.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:37.067)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:45.292)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:51.962)
Right? There is no majority population in my, there's no 51 % plus of any racial makeup in my kids' school. And I love that. So it is hard. It's like, how do we talk about these things in a way that makes it clear? And the other thing I brought up in the room was we have to be really careful too when we start talking about funding, because every other part of the district, when we start saying we don't want money to be devoid out equally, we want to devoid out equitably, what other parents will hear, whether we want them to or not, is you mean my kids.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:18.091)
is that you're taking away.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:19.974)
Because I said that famous quote to people with oppression or to people with privilege, equality looks like or equity looks like oppression. And they're going to think, well, you're taking away from my kid. That's not fair. Right? And so it's how do we present fairness, which is one of the words we were talking about using. Can we focus more on what's fair versus equity and equality since those words may be a little more charged. But this is messy. You see how messy it is? I was nervous to even talk about it.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:27.971)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:44.195)
Yeah, it is messy. It is messy. I've heard people use the example to illustrate the difference between what's and the difference between, or not the difference between what's fair, but the difference between equality and equity and how to institute fairness. I've seen people use an example of people who have multiple kids, where each child has different needs. And so as a parent, you're not,
going to treat, you're not going to give the same attention to a 16 year old child that you would to a six year old child, right? You're not going to treat them the same. You're not going to have the same boundaries, right? Like it's going to be a different approach. And so.
mapping that onto these different schools, right? Like these different schools have these different needs, right? Because, and those needs are made up of the students that go to those schools, right? The teachers that go to the schools, the administrators that are at those schools, the communities that those schools are a part of. And so focusing on like what that need is, I think, regardless of what the makeup is, because at the end of the day, some parents are gonna leave.
But I think you just need to be prepared for that. Like some parents are gonna pull their kids, right? Like those diversity statistics numbers are gonna keep fluctuating, sometimes wildly, sometimes not as wildly. And you might find yourself in a situation where your son is the minority, right? Depending on how many parents decide to pull their kids out. But that doesn't change the fact that the school's needs are going to be different than.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:04.213)
it's happening already, so yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:30.182)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:30.824)
another school's needs, right? That fact is going to remain regardless of the makeup, regardless of how diverse the school is, there are still going to be specific needs that that school has that other schools don't have and vice versa. And so I think.
Keeping the conversation based around that is your path of least resistance to get what the students need.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:52.26)
It's so challenging because talking about these issues.
talking about race, race, even when it's not about race, it is, and like, it's just challenging because I'm afraid people will hear, I'm just so nervous about being white women showing up. A lot of the school's teachers are showing up as well because they want to show solidarity to say like, are here, we all care about the school. One of my son's teachers, past teachers reached out to me to ask if I'd be willing to send somebody to the school board. And I was like, I'm going to the meeting. She was really relieved. She's like, I thought you would be the kind of person who would be there.
But I'm just worried, I don't want them to see us show up and then think that we are in any way trying to link the diversity of our school as a direct causal reason for additional needs. Whereas like you can't talk about the additional needs without all of the systemic structural issues that lead to, in the same way, well, people will talk about, well, this area that's predominantly black has more crime.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:40.016)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:46.635)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:52.474)
without talking about any of the reasons that might be true, right? That beyond just, Correct, without any, like just direct causation versus correlation. And this is a correlation situation. And my biggest fear is I don't wanna show up and look like I'm being reductive, especially since I have very little time to talk. It's like how to talk about these nuanced issues in two minutes without sounding reductive. And it's really challenging.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:54.955)
That happens, yeah. Yeah, lack of job, lack of like proper education. Yeah, lack of housing.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:05.568)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:13.696)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:17.269)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you can't, you can't. Like the way I see it is like this is a layered conversation. The first layer is that the school has unique needs that aren't being met, right? The additional layers as you go deeper is the racial issues, the class issues, right? Like all those other things that you can talk about until you're blue in the face. But the immediate issue, the top layer is the needs that the school has.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:21.712)
You're right.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:46.366)
So you can talk about that without even addressing the diversity, right? If you want to make sure you don't come across as like either the white savior or creating a conversation that you have no intention of creating.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:04.422)
Yeah, which I brought up about the white saviorism. So based on what I said I was gonna say, do you think I should take out? Like I wanted to make sure that at least one of us in the room was showing up to say very clearly, I'm not here to complain about our student body. I love our, this is why I'm in the school. And I kind of want them to see a white face saying, this is why I love this school. Like, I just feel like I really wanna make sure I get that point across, but I don't know, does that come, does it fall flat in this like having such a small amount
Taina Brown she/hers (26:22.401)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:32.864)
I don't think it falls flat. I would not.
I'm thinking where in your two minutes to put that? Like, because it has to be strategic how you bring that up. I would bring that up at the very beginning and don't spend a lot of time on it.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:52.688)
So maybe I just need to take out the part about us losing the diversity, because that is the part that made me nervous. This part about the reality is we may lose people if we don't solve this issue. Maybe I just take that part out. Because I think the first part of what I have to say is great. I felt like it's like, know, that I love the diversity. I'm worried about how things are being allocated and about our students, about us having all these additional students that we weren't prepared for, not having the space, not having the resources.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:02.035)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:08.735)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:21.764)
And then that means students are falling through the cracks. Their needs aren't being met. And then that this is causing burdens on our teachers who we love and they're leaving. So maybe I just need to kind of almost end it there and just not even go into the part about potentially losing the other students and just like saying, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:36.385)
Yeah, I wouldn't even address that. I would just say our teachers have special, like unique needs, our school has unique needs, and those are not being met the way that funding is currently being distributed.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:45.124)
Yeah. And the other piece you said that I think is important is I think maybe I'll take out the last parts I had and change it to something along the lines of we are eager to work with you to think about how we can solve this issue for all of our schools, right? Something that, so it doesn't sound like the ultimatum piece, right? Something that sounds more collective in the action. So thank you. That's been helpful. Okay. I'll report back.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:03.635)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:10.982)
I don't even know yet for sure if I'm speaking. By the way, there's only, I think they only have 12, 10, 10 speaking slots, something like that. So I don't know, the moms are deciding who's gonna speak, so we'll see if I make the cut. But if I do, I'll report back. I'll report back about how all of this goes. So what's your mess?
Taina Brown she/hers (28:25.584)
Okay. I have a couple messes. I have more than a couple messes. I'm not sure which one I want. I'm not sure how personal I want to get. But you know what? You got really personal, so I'm going to feel a little bit brave.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:29.382)
Pick one!
Becky Mollenkamp (28:36.74)
I did and I was like, I will not lie, it was really scary to bring that up here for a lot of reasons.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:41.886)
I'm gonna be really brave and get personal. So you're bisexual, right? Married to a straight man. Okay, I'm pansexual. Married. Okay, married to a lesbian woman.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:49.936)
Yes.
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:56.55)
Well, I would say I'm pansexual as well, but yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:06.179)
These things are not revelations. feel like we've had that discussion. Thus far, all of this is old news.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:08.425)
They're not revelations, we know this about each other. I guess my question is, okay, so let me process by saying I'm a late bloomer when it comes to my queer identity. Like I didn't come out until my early 30s because of my religious upbringing. And I didn't date before my wife. Like I just, at all, at all.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:23.622)
totally relate.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:31.162)
like at all? Or you mean women? because you were religious, you had this very strong religious background that probably, or was that why?
Taina Brown she/hers (29:40.956)
had a very strong religious background, but I also just felt like dating was a waste of time. was like, I got too much shit to do to be with like just lollygagging with people who may or may not work out. Like that, it just seemed like a waste of time to me. But then when I came out, I was like, well, this is a bit different. I think also even in the religious bubble, like there was also a part of me that was like, men just kind of suck. So I'm not interested in dating and being married to a man.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:53.133)
Interesting.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:05.956)
Well, that is so true.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:10.225)
Right? But I think in my mind, it was like, like the way that my brain made sense of it because of the religious bubble was partially like, I have too much to do and I don't want to waste my time. Although that I thought that that part was a complete lie. I just don't think it was the whole story. But then when I came out in my early thirties, I was like, well, this opens up a whole new possibility. Right. So I was like, let me try and date a little bit and see if, you know.
If anyone catches my interest, let's just have some fun, right? Because when I met my wife, we met online on OKCupid, and we had been stalking each other's profiles for months before anyone reached out. And it wasn't until she changed her profile and said, I'm moving back to LA, that I was like, perfect. No strings attached. It'll be just a few weeks of fun, just hanging out.
and she'll go back to LA and I'll never have to see her again. I didn't know much about lesbian culture. So this was like six weeks. No, no, no. This was about six weeks before she moved back and she was actually moving out of her apartment two weeks into that.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:08.51)
you don't know how lesbians are. That's so sweet.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:16.966)
You didn't know there was gonna be U-Haul outside your door.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:31.389)
And I will say her apartment was also really close to where I was going to school and where I was working at the time. So in between classes, I would be like, hey, can I come take a nap? Or between classes and work at the restaurant, I'd be like, I have a few hours. Can I just come hang out, take a nap? And that's not a euphemism. I literally would take naps. And so those two weeks, we got really close. And then she moved out of her apartment. And you know how wild my life is.
I was like, so where are you going to stay after you move out of your apartment? She was like, I don't know yet. And I was just like, what do you mean you don't know? And it's literally like two days before she has to move out. And I'm just like, what the hell are you doing? I was like, you can just stay with me and my roommate, like whatever. So we like, so she moved into our house for like three or four weeks. To be fair, she was traveling for some of that time. So she wasn't there the whole time. But then a bunch of other shit happened and.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:20.249)
Uh-huh.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:29.725)
Call it trauma bonding, call it U-hauling, whatever you want. When it was time for her to move back to LA, I was like, I'm kind of sad. I kind of don't want to not talk to her anymore. took her to the airport, asked her to be my girlfriend. We did long distance for a year while was finishing up my bachelor's. And then once I was done, I moved to LA because she was in grad school. So it wasn't like she could move back to Atlanta. So that was 11 years ago, a little over 11 years ago.
First person that I dated, seriously or un-seriously, huh? Ended up marrying. Didn't want to get married either. Even when I moved to LA, I was like, no, there's no fucking way I'm getting married. But then it was like, I need benefits, she has benefits, I don't have a job yet. We need to have some kind of legal arrangement. So we had a partnership in California. And then after that, it was like, well, why the fuck, why don't we just get married? Anyway.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:01.38)
ended up marrying.
ended up marrying.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:30.182)
I'm getting to my point here. My lack of experience in dating, like, I think sometimes there's a part of me that feels like I missed out on some of that. That's what everybody says. And I'm not saying...
Becky Mollenkamp (33:47.366)
Listen, my first marriage was somebody that I met when I was 17, got married at 24, never dated. I I had very minimal dating experience, got married 11 years. Very interesting. I started to get the itch. I guess I got the itch around 10 years, but I started having all of this like I never dated. I never saw what else there is. Like, and it wasn't even that I didn't. It was just more like I just felt like I missed out on something. So I fully relate to this.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:57.638)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:09.819)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:15.78)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I'm not saying I necessarily want to date other people. I'm just, giving you my thought process here because also, because I, like I'm 43 now, I came out when I was like 31, 32. So it's been a little over 10 years since I've like came to terms with my queer identity. And...
Becky Mollenkamp (34:16.409)
I'm all on board right now.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:42.117)
She's always been like staunch lesbian. Like she's never been like bi lesbian or lesbian pan or you know what I mean? Like sometimes like people evolve like that. Like she's never been like that. And so I still have like, still am attracted to like the opposite sex. And it's a little bit of like a joke sometimes with us because she's like.
Something like we'll be watching a show, whether it's true crime or fake TV, right? Like some TV show or movie. And she'll just look at me and she's like, I know you like men, but God, they're disgusting. know? I don't know how you can like them, you know? So it's a little bit of a joke. then, but I do find myself sometimes just like being like super attracted to like, like I'll see men that are untouchable, like my Jeff Goldblum obsession.
Like, there's no way that could ever be threatening to my relationship, right? But I think it's hard also because I think, like, she's my best friend. Like, she's the one person I would want to talk to about any kind of like attraction or, my gosh, did you see that guy at the grocery store or whatever? But then like, it's hard for me to...
figure out where the line is, right? Because I don't want to make her feel a certain way, but I can get quite feral, huh?
Becky Mollenkamp (36:11.366)
just on the discussing it, just on the like discussing this is somebody I find attractive or, look at that, isn't that person cute or, that person makes me so like that kind of a conversation or are you saying I'm not sure if we need to have conversations more like is polyamory an avenue for us? Like, okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:20.601)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:30.555)
No, no, just like, like the way I would talk to like one of my other besties, right? It'd just be like, oh my God, I saw this guy or I was at this event and you know, I ended up sitting next to this dude and like, you know, it's, it's nothing like opening up our relationship or polyamory or anything like that, but it's like.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:37.178)
Well, listen, I'm an A.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:52.218)
It's just girlfriend talk about like that person's hot. I am in a hetero presenting relationship and I would not and do not talk to my husband other than in the most, in the same way like me, just like, my hall pass or like, you he knows I think Paul Rudd's like dreamy or whatever. And like he'll send me things about Paul Rudd every once in like, wait, there's a couple of those like celebrity people that, and that's like that un,
Taina Brown she/hers (36:53.559)
Yeah, yeah, because she's my best friend.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:06.787)
Obscura.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:13.274)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (37:18.479)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:20.44)
attainable, it's a joke like we know, but we kind of know each other's types sort of a thing that we do. And I will do the same to him about Eva Mendes. OK, fine. But we don't have I would never and will never and don't want him to ever see somebody in public and be like, my God, she's hot. That no doesn't feel good. No, doesn't feel good to me. And I wouldn't do that to him because I don't want him to. It's different when it's a celebrity. Again, like you said, it's never going to happen. It's not real. It's just like
Taina Brown she/hers (37:25.155)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:29.188)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:40.279)
Really?
Taina Brown she/hers (37:47.919)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:50.446)
It's more discussing archetypes of like kinds of people we find attractive versus like, here is a person in front of us who is a real human. Like those people are real humans, but like there's no accessibility. There's no reality to it. This is like, no, here's a real person that I'm now finding attractive that in a different world, I might be able to act on it. if we weren't like that, for my boundaries, it crosses a line that becomes uncomfortable and doesn't feel good. Like I'm okay with the
Taina Brown she/hers (37:53.988)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:10.49)
Mm-hmm
Taina Brown she/hers (38:18.372)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:19.75)
And for some people that is not a boundary that doesn't feel good. They do that all the time with their partners. In our relationship, that is a pretty established no, we don't do that. However, if I was out with my girlfriend or even a guy friend, you know, like probably a gay guy friend. But if I was out with a friend and I saw someone, I'd be like, damn, that person's fine. Like, aren't they hot? Like knowing that I would still never act on it, right? Like it's not something I'm pursuing, but just being like, holy shit, look how hot they are.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:22.767)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:29.113)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:40.142)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:47.78)
I just, I don't know, it's like a respect thing that I don't wanna make him feel uncomfortable. I don't want him to get into a comparison mode. Cause I know that's where my brain would go. If we were out in public and there was some woman, he was like, she is fucking gorgeous. I would be like comparing myself and seeing all the ways that I don't compare and feel, so is that what you are saying you would really rather, who you'd really rather be with right now? Even when I know it's probably not realistic. Like, you know, I love my husband, but.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:53.017)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:57.049)
And then.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:05.411)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:16.164)
Both of us have aged. Both of us look different than we used to. Like, I know he's not going to be out there pulling an Angelina Jolie or whoever, like, as much as I love him. But also it's different for men and women, too, like, in what's realistic and not realistic with aging. But anyway, I don't know. For me, it's uncomfortable. I would have those conversations with a friend. But I think it's like some of it is what have you guys established inside of your relationship? Like, when you're watching TV, do you guys talk about celebrity crushes?
Taina Brown she/hers (39:25.496)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:41.966)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:46.458)
We do talk about celebrity crushes. We have some of the same people on our hall pass list. So we're like, oh, I could just have a threesome. It'll be great. But of course, that's all like fantasy, right? And so I think part of it for me is like, get the whole thing, because I definitely don't ever want to make her feel like she has to compare herself to someone else. I think sometimes I just, I
Becky Mollenkamp (39:52.002)
Mmm. There you go.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:58.019)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:11.034)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:15.129)
I forget that like, cause we're so alike that I forget in some ways we're different. Cause for me, like if she were to be like, oh, I went to this work thing and like, I met this woman and she was like, fucking hot. I was just like, oh really? Tell me about it. Did you get any pictures? You know, like it wouldn't bother me. Like I just, I'm so, I don't know.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:23.429)
I wouldn't.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:37.328)
Well, and in some ways I can tell your wife and I are similar. I don't know if we're similar in all the ways, but like, I would be bothered by that. So I don't know. But I think that's you need to have that, like, I don't know, it could be helpful to have those conversations. Although my husband and I have never outright like just blatantly had that conversation. It's been more of a like over the course of the last, you know, whatever 10, 12 years of kind of testing the like, it feels like operation, right? Where you're like,
Taina Brown she/hers (40:44.759)
Hahahaha
Taina Brown she/hers (40:53.389)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:01.645)
The boundaries. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:04.654)
If I touch this part, it make you go, And I start to notice where his like, and he and I are very, very similar. We're both Pisces. We're very emotional. We're very sensitive. We're both a little romantic. Like we're just both people who for either of us, we both get the like, ugh, don't say that. Like, it's too real and it makes me feel like less loved. Even if that's not what it means. And even if we both, cause I think we both,
Taina Brown she/hers (41:07.255)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:17.507)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:24.567)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:29.964)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:33.818)
feel the same way where I know he sees women and he thinks they're hot. I see his head. He's not the best. Men are really bad. Here's the difference between men and women that I can tell you. Men are really bad at hiding their eyes. Like I see he can't just look like I can just look and then be like, I didn't see anything. He's like, huh? What? didn't. Yeah, like I know he's these women. He thinks they're beautiful and they are beautiful and I see that. But I don't I guess I don't know. There's something where I don't need to hear about it. I don't need to.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:35.084)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:42.264)
You
Taina Brown she/hers (41:50.742)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:00.55)
If you start to talk about it, I'm going to start to fixate on it and it's going to become unhealthy. But again, there's many people who I think are far more, I don't know if it's sensitivity or if it's self-esteem related. It very well could be because I think he and I both probably have some issues there. I'm not sure if it's people with a healthier self-esteem or if they're less sensitive. For some people, I think they have those kinds of conversations all the time and it's not a big deal. I don't think it has anything to do with heteronormativity or anything either. I think that is
Taina Brown she/hers (42:05.122)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:11.179)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:17.784)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:24.992)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:29.08)
I don't think so either. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:30.298)
highly individualized. Some people are great with that, some people are not. Because I've met men and women both who are wired totally different than me. And I couldn't be in a relationship with someone like that because I would be constantly feeling, I would be constantly in my feelings.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:45.738)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think it's a heteronormative thing either. I think part of like, part of my dilemma is also like, we don't have a lot of friends here in Baltimore. So it's not like I'm meeting up with people that I would talk to about this like every other day or a few times a week, you know what I mean? So I think it's like, like we have, we have some.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:58.182)
It's tough.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:12.183)
really good friends, but that's so recent. It's just been like the past year that for like the longest it was just us two. So it was like, we talked about everything. So now it's like, my brain is like having trouble like making the transition to be like, oh, you can talk to other people. Like.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:23.878)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:33.338)
I totally get that. Like my partner is my best friend too. And I think that's what happens in a marriage or I feel like in a healthy marriage, your partner does become your primary go-to person to talk about those things. And that can be hard because in an unhealthy space and mine's probably that way because I'm such a deep introvert that I don't have a lot of friends either. that I would go that I especially like in-person kinds of friends.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:39.531)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:57.867)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:59.694)
So yeah, that is challenging because it's like, who do you talk to about the things that you don't want to talk to your partner about? And not because you don't trust them or love them, but really more out of respect for them. Like, this is just not something that's really appropriate for our space. Because I fully expect that if my husband is out with his guy friends at the bar, I expect that they're... And then the being like, damn, she's hot. Like, okay, cool. Like, I expect that, don't care. I just don't need to know about it.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:05.609)
Not for secrets. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:18.251)
They're looking at people.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:25.326)
You know, and so I want him to have that's why I'm always encouraging him to go and have guy time and do stuff because like, I need him to have that space so that it's not something that's that need isn't being met, but also that I'm not being asked to fulfill a need I can't. So I guess it's hard. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:25.387)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:37.451)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good point. Because like we've had that conversation before of like...
Taina Brown she/hers (44:48.321)
I don't believe anyway that one person can meet all your needs, right? I don't think that's healthy, right? Yeah, yeah, other than yourself, yeah. But I think in terms of like emotional needs for sure, not like that's too much of a burden I feel like on one person. And so.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:52.026)
They shouldn't. I don't think that's healthy, personally. Other than maybe yourself. And even then, I don't know if that's healthy.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:07.622)
For sure, I've seen parents who do it to their children and we know that's unhealthy, so why isn't it unhealthy in a relationship with a partner, you know?
Taina Brown she/hers (45:11.752)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, so I think that's... I hadn't considered it from that perspective. I think that's a good point. Like, it's a lot to put on her.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:23.94)
Yeah, you're asking her to wade through stuff that maybe she's not, you know, maybe one thing if you guys, again, you tested those edges and your edges had gotten out to the place where you're like, she does it, I do it, we both are okay. But if it's like, we've tested those edges and we've kind of come to this place and this is falling outside of that, then yeah, that probably means it's a place for someone else. I it's also, I happen to know she listens to this podcast. So she will probably ask you about this if you guys don't talk about it beforehand.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:39.604)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:48.052)
It does.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:53.414)
And I would say to her, like, it's totally healthy in the same way she probably has thoughts too. Like, it's good to have a space to have those conversations, knowing, I think the big thing is, do you have enough respect inside your relationship? And I think you do. That if it ever became something more than just like the, like banter, locker room talk, for lack of better word, but like, just like healthy banter. If it ever became like, I'm now getting fixated on a person who's a real person and there's access or there's,
Taina Brown she/hers (45:59.84)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:13.214)
Hahaha!
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:20.351)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:22.894)
opportunity, that becomes something different where you need to be having conversations. Yeah. And as long as you guys have the respect to know that like we would talk about that kind of thing, then like I think it's so it's healthy. It's it's so silly to think that you get married and suddenly what your your like hormones just or it only goes like it all gets towards the one person and while yeah, we need to have it towards this one person. We're still humans who both when you were out.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:25.462)
Yeah, you have to talk about that. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:31.86)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:41.533)
Everything shuts off.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
going to be attracted to other people.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:52.494)
Yeah, you weren't dating much, for many of us when you're out dating, you're attracted to lots of people. It's like, like a buffet, you know? And it's like, why am I only gonna eat the green beans when there's... I know, but why would I eat just green beans when there's also cheesecake? You wanna have both, right? And just because you decided you're gonna spend your life with the green beans doesn't mean that sometimes you don't wanna like take a little whiff of the cheesecake and you know, like just drool over the cheesecake a little bit. you're... Yeah, I'm not gonna eat it, but damn.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:54.665)
Yeah.
That sounds gross. I hate buffets.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:08.554)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:13.647)
Look at the cheesecake. Damn, that cheesecake looks good.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:20.878)
It is nice looking cheesecake. I remember cheesecake, right? Like I think that's okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:23.957)
I remember cheesecake.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:27.32)
Or maybe you married cheesecake and less often you're like, I don't love green beans a lot, but sometimes I'm like, I kinda miss green beans, you know? That's okay, so yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:33.631)
But every once in a while, a good green bean casserole hits the spot.
Thank you. Thank you. That was helpful.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:43.674)
Well, good. All right. Well, this was a weird show, but I kind of like I don't know. We'll see. I wish people would tell us if they like the this approach is only our second time doing it. So we'll see. I kind of like it. And it is helpful. Yeah, it's like messy therapy.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:52.197)
Yeah, yeah, we'll see. We'll see what the numbers say.
Yeah, yeah. Do we have a guest next week? Remind me? Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:01.446)
things. I don't freaking know. Like you're asking questions I can't keep up with. But I think we're maybe done with the guests that we have lined up for now until we get our special series scheduled out. So all right. All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening and we'll be back maybe with updates because we know your wife's gonna hear this and have something to say and the school board meeting is happening tonight, whether I speak or not. So we will be back with some updates next week. Maybe we'll have to do updates and then new messes. Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:06.047)
You
Taina Brown she/hers (48:11.541)
For the year, yeah.
Yeah. Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:21.333)
You
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:31.59)
or these may cause entirely new messes in our lives.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:33.885)
Maybe we've unleashed the Kraken. Bye.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:38.273)
Right. All right. I'll see you next week.