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Most businesses don’t fail because of bad ideas.
They fail because they run out of capital.
Unbankable is a business podcast for entrepreneurs who don’t wait for permission - especially from banks.
I’m Alex Shvarts, Founder & CEO of FundKite. For over a decade, I’ve worked directly with thousands of small and mid-sized business owners across the United States, providing working capital when traditional banks said no.
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– Alex Shvarts
Welcome to Unbankable, the podcast for entrepreneurs who won't take no for an answer. I'm Alex Schwarz, the CEO and founder of Fun Kite. And today we have a very special guest, Elena Bulattoova, also known as the bullet of art. Built a luxury art business completely on her own terms. No gallery system, no auction house gatekeepers. No waiting for the art world to give her permission. Elena is formerly from the Soviet Union, an artist and entrepreneur whose work combines acrylics, resin, and LEDs into largecale pieces that end up in luxury hotels, [music] homes, and showrooms from Las Vegas to Miami. She runs multiple locations, partners with high-end real estate and automotive brands, and has built a commercial infrastructure around her own name. This is a story about turning creativity into a real business and what it actually takes to sell something where the price is entirely subjective. Elena, welcome to Unbankable. Thank you. I'm very honored to be here with you. First question off the bat, I I just have to do this because, you know, I've passed by your galleries before and um you've done very well selling art of luxury brands, right? Like so there's uh you know some art with Chanel in it or some other luxury brand and and I've seen this and this is awesome, right? Like everybody wants a piece of art with Chanel in it, right? or Dior or Hermes, but it's actually art. It's not something that I'm going to buy in one of those stores. How are you able to produce that type of work? The story is that we follow what's what's trendy. When I just started my career, I started to paint abstracts, then I uh went into sculptures, I would go all the time and visit different art fairs like Art Basil and all around. And I I feel like it's just um a lot of artists actually they were using different brands and I would say they were talking about consumerism and uh you can like a lot of people actually come to gallery and they say how you can sell this with brand uh like some art with brand actually I guess um if it is produced like one of a kind you can when it is produced multiples this this will be a problem. So, I can go right now and uh paint uh my own version of what Louis Vuitton should be. Put Louis Vuitton in there and as long as it's one of a kind, I can sell it. And I mean, a lot of artists do exactly that. And Louis Vuitton can't come to me and say you can't do that. If it is original painting, I guess like you get away for it. You're too small for Louis Vuitton to go hunt that one painting. But example, in Palm Springs, there was a design shop and they created lamps that had CC. So they were selling these lamps uh multiples thousands. So Chanel did that was by the way Louis Vuitton texting me and telling me that I can't create any of their stuff. Okay, I got it. But that's amazing, right? So it's kind of taking what people know, what people uh love and you know creating something on your own to tap that type of a market. Well, if you think about it, art it's many times reflection of interests. Uh what is going on in the society? It reflects political events or fashion that in this part this would be fashion trend. Got it. All right, Elena. So, most artists spend their careers waiting for someone to discover them. A gallery, a collector, an institution. You decided to build your own market. What made you believe in yourself before the world believed in you? Well, if you don't believe in yourself, how [laughter] you can wait for somebody else to believe in you? First you need to believe in yourself and you just need to go and and do something. Um why I even started to open my own galleries. I have business background and I started to paint as a hobby and uh as a young artist I didn't know anything about this market. I went to a couple galleries actually many galleries and as a young artist they would not take me. So I started to see how how I can sell my art. I found different fairs. I and uh opened my small studio and then it just went from small smaller to bigger. Um but basically 90% I would say it's a business of art not just painting and most artists when they wait to be discovered they they are artistic and uh I guess they need to find either dealer or develop these business skills to to be successful. Did anybody ever tell you that you know this wouldn't work? Oh, people criticized like you know uh actually I think the the biggest critic is inside your head when we like afraid afraid like what people going to say right most people are busy with their life they don't really care they care about themselves but we in our head tell ourselves oh what they going to think what they going to say I remember but look there's you know there's a lot more haters out there that don't really want someone to succeed right people in general uh So bad news attracts more attention than good news, right? Well, the haters will be always there. You just sit on your couch or you do something. There will be all the time somebody who will criticize you. At least you do something. We have some haters in the studio audience today. I just want to tell you uh was there a moment you almost gave up. It's life. There is a high moments, there's low moments. You just need to keep going. So you really bet on yourself, right? You took all the bets on yourself. What did that cost you emotionally, physically? financially to get there. It's I mean it just didn't happen overnight, right? Well, uh emotionally I would say I had to grow up in many in many ways. It was uh not easy. When we opened the gallery in Las Vegas, I had to interview people double my age who had 20 years of experience in art world. So, it was very intimidating for me. But I grew up very quickly over there. People thought the person who owns this gallery over 50 years old and I was 32. Wow. and you're like 33 now. So that's not bad. You did well in a year. Um, okay. So you came to America and entered one of the most relationshipdriven luxury industries in the world. What was the hardest thing about building credibility when nobody knew your name? I believe you are your own uh biggest asset. So I always had great uh belief in great education. So I studied in the best universities in the world. So this was my first credibility because I could talk to people about anything and they would connect with them and then I will tell them about my art. I remember I made just first five paintings and people who bought that they believed I painted all my life. I call myself art entrepreneur because I am artist. I'm also gallerist and I do a lot of other things around artfield. uh 2011 I started to paint abstracts in the garage and then it just started to be selling and I opened small studio then first gallery in Palm Springs, California and became number one uh awarded gallery. Wow. And uh this was vacation town and I thought we would go to Las Vegas a lot and I thought I would love to see more audience. I would love to get more exposure and I'd looked at some u uh artists there like photographer Peter Leak and I thought oh he has four galleries it should be something happening there if he has several galleries in Las Vegas. So in 2015 I was able to open a first gallery uh in Las Vegas and it was big move for me. Where was that? It was in AR hotel. It was uh amazing. There were three more galleries next to me. Chihuli, Richard Macdonald, and they were in their 70s and I was 32 and it was so amazing and scary and exciting and I did not know much. Uh, like I had to jump into this business in the big business. Where did you get the money to open? Where did you get the funding, the [clears throat] business funding to open a gallery in Las Vegas? I found a partner in the beginning. We bought him out in a year. But you cannot just go and open a luxury gallery in uh this prestigious place where we were. Uh my partner who happened to be um a friend of my husband, they had another business in Las Vegas for 10 years. So they had um uh credibility. They had some shops. So they they came as a guarantor because we were in business just two years in Palm Springs Gallery. So they so you leverage the relationship and their story. they they came as our partners. So the um MGM looked at them that they they they knew that they knew how to operate retail shops and the rent was enormous. But uh in the end we bought them out in the year and we continued and we still there till like Oh yeah, we're still friends. Yes, we're still friends and uh we did. So go on. So now you've got your Did you still keep the operation in [clears throat] Palm Springs? Yes, we did. So you got Palm Springs, now you got Vegas. Yes. And then I actually didn't know what I'm doing. But we we met some other people and uh they told me why don't we open here? Why don't we open there? We grew 2016 uh to more galleries. It was five galleries at the point also in Laguna Beach, California and Sarasota, Florida and uh and more. And then you eventually made it to Miami, right? Yes, we eventually made it to Miami as well. There was part with galleries and we started to work with builders and interior designers. work with two biggest builders in Las Vegas and we are one of a kind probably gallery that because we produce so much art we started with abstracts like I is it the art you produce is all your art or you have other artists that work for you mostly uh we me and my husband we produce all our art ourselves what is different from us most galleries how they work they find different artists and they share 50/50 we started just from us why we were able to grow so much because we produce everything ourselves and um the margins are higher that's why I think we were able to grow and then because we have our own location I thought okay I cannot offer only one type of paintings I started to create like LED paintings and say small sculptures and bigger sculpture and then publish how do you find time to to make so much product I would think that creating something is a mindset right like I you know when you create it's it's a mindset like you can't just say like okay it's 7:00 a.m. I got to go paint something now. That's how it is when really So you can just paint professional art like you're you can paint on demand. Yes, I have to paint on demand. I have a lot of custom work. That's uh it's project artist on demand. I love it. Right. Like so I can just go like on Uber right now and say I need a painting and it'll be 15 minutes later you're going to deliver me a painting. No, not like that but uh say it sounds like somebody has a pro. I mean, it's not like in a day or something, but like within when it's custom project, we completed within 30 days. How much was the biggest piece of art you ever sold for? Oh my gosh. Probably I would I would say it's more like a package, a deal like 300,000 by 300,000 several pieces. I did h house for Tim Cook. I worked with builder. It was a big house for sale. I'll tell it because it's already public information. Okay. Sure. In the beginning, is it true that he had no Apple computers and he was using Dell's in his home? No, he he was on his iPad. [laughter] Go ahead. The house was staged. So, usually when people buy second or third home, they busy people, it's very helping for them when the house is staged. Of course, they can change things, but um the the house that he purchased, it was staged with our art and with furniture. But then half a year later he contacted me because he needed to change some things to his taste and he had his own collection. So we worked with him. It was just before co I actually read the whole book about him, his biography to see what he likes like he's in sports and everything so I could offer him some things and uh yes we changed half of the things and uh installed new things and created a lot of custom pieces for him. Oh, that's nice. And uh that's a great story. I loved uh working with him. Um but also there is like big sculpture of mine on a Royal Caribbean. It was uh on on biggest ship in the world. No, I know at the Royal of the Seas at at some point it was a biggest ship in the world. And so you created a sculpture for Symphonies of the Seas. Wow. Tell me about your your a lot of your art has appeared on Netflix on different shows, right? Yes. It's another branch of the business. We rent art to the shows. They have since when there is an art gallery or like uh something. So they rent many times my big 12 ft lollipop for the gallery or there is a abstracts that appear or a big popsicle there in I actually have seen Lucifer on auctions also. Yes. The lollipops putting the your art. Oh my I almost even bought I had no idea who you are. You the lollipops and a lot of your stuff is resold on auctions. I'm going to show you now. I exactly know and I know what you're talking about. I'm going to show you in a minute. I'm going to log into my account because your stuff was being resold in auctions. Oh my god. Wow. Nice to meet you. Go on. How crazy is that? I'm going to show you right now. So, look, art can can cost anything, right? It's whatever you want to put on it. How do you uh put a price tag on your piece of art? Well, there is a whole philosophy behind it. There is uh some value in art if you new artist just starting artist. So, of course, the price will be a lower you you compare with like market comparables. If you already mid-career artist 10, 15 years, you had a lot of exhibitions, you have important collectors. So, it's different price point. So everything is like in um I would say there there is a relation or relevancy how you price it out. There is some philosophy behind from the ceiling. There is there is a a four. Yeah. And then for blue chip art of course you look at the auction results then it's already auction because there is multiple niches you know of the artists and uh like art. If you like this podcast please click subscribe drop some comments. Let me know which guests you like to for me to bring on from what industries and what more I can share with our guests um in these podcast. Back to Elena. Okay. So, you've sold pieces into luxury homes, hotels, and also you partner with a lot of dealerships, high-end dealerships. Um what's the difference between selling art and selling confidence? I feel like confidence, you have to be confident in any field of your life. If you're not confident, it's harder. Okay, let's think about this, right? There are very established bigname galleries that probably billionaires walk into and trust and buy their art, right? And there are people who are impulse buyers. They're going to walk by a gallery, see something, and like, "Oh my god, what is this?" Right? They probably don't know anything about it. And that's there's a lot of that in the marketplace, right? and they walk in and they're just attracted to some piece of art and then they get sticker shocked that it's a $50,000 item, right? Um so now they've never heard of this artist. They maybe they could spend $50,000. There is something that you're going to sell as your confidence in that piece of art and what they're buying and and or sometime it might be the art. So, if they never heard of the artist, you're going to need to sell your confidence in that piece of art that they really that it's a good piece of art that it might go up in value, it's a good price or whatever it is. So, you're really selling confidence. It's about educating like yes, if you are already in the art gallery, art consultant, he's confident he's working there. But if you're educating, I've walked into galleries, but I've walked into galleries because I pass by, it catches my eye. It catches your eye like monkeys. I love paintings with monkeys. There are some very famous uh contemporary artists and still people don't know about them because art it's still niche product. It's it's not uh cars Lamborghinis know everybody everybody knows Lamborghinis for example the even like very very well-known artists not everybody knows them first there is visual contact and they walk in the people walking in the gallery and it's job of art consultant to tell them to tell people about this artist but mainly also to to understand is it the right fit will this person like enjoy this art piece at home and uh see what is his need what style he likes likes or like by education. How quick can you tell that this is a real buyer? I cannot judge uh by looks. You have to engage in conversation. But how quick can you tell? You ask a few qualifying questions. So, four, five qualifying questions uh I can understand if like you can move forward. And it's not only me, it's any professional art consultant uh will understand. You have to figure out if they can afford a $50,000 painting. How do you ask that? How do you find that out? you carefully move toward that and you can you you can understand by other questions you ask do you collect art what kind of art do you have and you and if they tell you oh I have like Likenstein or something you ex you already understand he spent maybe $100,000 if I walk and I say no I don't have any art I I've never bought but I really like this understand that this okay what are you going to let's let's role play a little bit no I've never bought any art but I really like this this this is very attractive to me. All right. Do you feel like you have a space in your home where this piece will look beautiful? Absolutely. Okay. Tell me more about your home where where you very very contemporary home. Very bright, very open. Um not cluttered, you know. I don't hoard anything in my home. I like open space. And I have this, you know, really big wall. Um and you know, right now I have a little IKEA painting on it, but I'm thinking that this would this would be a good fit there. By the way, I'm wearing an Apple watch. I'm dressed I'm I'm dressed in Adidas. I'm dressed in Adidas or I guess Ser Sergio Tachini now is popular. So, I'm not I'm not wearing Louis Vuitton. I am You don't have to. I had billionaire actually. Let's I'm just giving you the guy that just walked into your store with the IKEA painting. What are you going to say? What? How are you going to continue to gauge whether you're wasting your time or mine? No. Uh so I would uh find Okay. If we're in the same Are you local or are you visiting? No. No. I live here. You live here in Miami? Yep. Okay. So if you'd like, we have You're going to ask me where I live? Yes. Star Island right next to Ken Griffith. Okay. Well, it gives me See, now you had a smile that you can't wait to. So, first of all, I don't live on Star Island next to Ken Griffith, but you see I I see. So, yeah, I get it. You're asking. You're trying to get my background. Yes. Understand what kind of home you live. What's No, you're sizing me up for money. That's really what you're doing. You're sizing me up for money to see if I can afford it or not. I get it. No, no, you're doing Yeah. One of And it's good. No, no. You're doing it in a very very nice way. Where? Oh, you're from Oh, where do you live in Miami? Right. Great. So, I I [snorts] get it because I wanted to offer you value of our service. Why I was asking also where Let me visit your home and tell you what it looks like. So, what we do uh as our service, we have like a program that we try to help you to find perfect piece for your taste. So we either photoshop for your home, you can show me the wall, you know, like we can photoshop it for you or we can bring the piece over to uh try it on the wall and you can even live with it two or three days. People who really interested like they would be interested in that you know so if they're in the budget because if they're completely not in the budget they're not going to agree to that. I might tell you, "Yeah, sure. Come hang it on my wall and 4 days later tell you take it's like not real like I I've been doing it 15 years." So, so you're very confident about what you're doing. I know what some things that work already. So, uh yes, it's like few qualifying questions and then also I can also ask what car you drive because usually people who love art, they would love fashion. I walk. Okay. You walk. Okay. And by the way, what I'm doing with you right now is I do to every sales a saleserson who tries to ask me leading questions that I I already know where they're going and I'm not going to make it easy for them and I want to see. So, okay, that's good question. You're very confident in yourself, right? Is confidence a skill an entrepreneur can learn? I think yes, definitely. You have to prime yourself. you have to build uh um this the thing is it's it's there it could be theoretical in the beginning but then while you progress with your life there are some achievements that you do so you have to some some days you're like upset saying maybe you sick or something so it's less confidence so you just look back what did you achieve and and you just have to be your own cheerleader and some days again they will be lighter some days will be harder uh some This will be amazing. It's not all the same. All right. Your name as a brand Elena Bulleta is both the artist and the company. Does that create pressure? Yes. I would say it creates responsibility because everywhere it's my face. So definitely. Can the personal brand outlive the person? Oh yeah. Look at Roberto Cavali. he sold his company and a lot of people sold their company and it just happened uh 15 years ago that my small studio was called Elena Bulattoova. So the first gallery we decided just called the same and then it just grew and then we didn't change the name. All right then what is the legacy you're trying to build then? Is it the name, the brand, the art? What is it? I feel like I will um um parlay to some other areas. What I was thinking uh this year look at Apple um they were doing computers I was telling this to my husband yesterday they were doing computers then they asked bigger question what they doing you know they got into music they got into phones so what I'm doing I feel like my business is not just paintings it's about inspiration so what I do with my paintings I bring inspiration to people's life they have a artwork on their wall and uh it's there so inspiration could achieved through different ways. I will parlay like in home goods in furniture and in many other things. I did jewelry. Um no sure could be different things. I love Marta Stewart how she did the whole the whole you know like household empire. Of course she started just like from catering and magazines and then it just grew. Interesting. So there's a lot of plans right? You have a lot of plans. So in a world obsessed with speed, you've kind of built patiently, right? What role has patience played in your success? I feel you always need to start small and test some things working. If they're working, you just scale them. Why do people quit too soon? I don't think it's a wrong thing to quit too soon. Maybe it is the wrong thing. So you better quit sooner rather than spending some things. I feel I I could quit some things sooner, too. Okay. So let me ask you this. What makes in your opinion someone really successful as an entrepreneur? Is it resilience? Is it creativity? Is it belief? What what makes someone a good entrepreneur versus a bad entrepreneur? I think uh resilience is a big part of it. Uh understanding what works, what does not again. So to give me give me tell me something from your life experience from running your business. Where where did you realize that resilience really played a key role? I came uh to us. I worked before in banking and uh when I started to go with my husband to do first um art shows, we would wake up every weekend 4:00 a.m. and it was the desert Palm Springs and I would put the ski pants and go build tent for the show and it was hard and then after that we had sales deliveries. I remember I was like crying some days because I was physically exhausted. I never it was probably second year after I uh moved here. I never worked physically so much. I was always in the office. So, and I just kept going. The resilience, right? And at the time, actually, it was at the time there was a dream. Oh, like if I could have a art gallery on our main street on El Paso. Um, and my husband tells me, Len, imagine you wake up not 5 4:00 a.m., you wake up at 8, dress nice and you go to the street to your gallery and and it's beautiful music and people come and it did happen and uh it was in the beginning like as an immigrant it was hard to to go and do build outs uh early in the morning and just so but but you have to do what you have to do. That's really good. Um, okay. So, art is unique because the value is really subjective, right? How do you manage cash flow in a business where something can sell tomorrow or sit for a year? Okay. It's a broad question. Um, the art is subjective part. There's two parts of your question. Art is subjective. Yes. But you already have a we have pricing for our art. There is track record for how much we sold our paintings and they gradually raise the pricing. Then cash flow part of the business. We have multiple products. So something sells all the time. Something may sit a year, something may sit three years, but some things move all the time. So you just plan your cash flow. It's like any retail shop. We just happen to sell artwork. You obviously have a taste for art. You probably have a t you you understand the market, what might sell, what might not. Do you ever feel or do you ever say, you know what, I I thought this thing would sell. It's not selling. It's just sitting there. I got money in it. I need to get rid of it. Let me figure out I'll sell it for half. I'll lose money on this painting. I just need to move this painting, get my cash out. Uh sometimes it happens, but the markup on the paintings, they're pretty high. So even uh you sell it a little bit less what you thought, um you still make money. It's just in galleries, there are still very high uh fixed costs. So you have to manage that. I noticed that it's been uh some changes after co I would say. So um we were thinking about how to reduce our fixed costs because they they're pretty high in luxury art field with all the fairs with all the art galleries you know let's talk about that for a minute. Have you ever went out and tried to How did you get the capital to start your galleries? It's all uh self-funded. Selfunded, right? Okay. Did you ever go to traditional banks to get to try to get funding for loans or something? Yes. Yes. I did get some credit line then it was probably COVID time when it was cheap money. So I thought okay uh this is good opportunity to take it on. So we took some it was help to everybody with PPP and idol loans. Sure. Does do banks understand your business? Yes. They look at cash flow. They look at uh they look at us as a retail shop I would say like that. So they they look at numbers credit credit of course yes they just look at you as any so you you were able at some point to go to a bank and get some type of you know loan or a line of credit or something to help grow your business. Well, yes. During co uh Oh, during co because of the programs, but outside of that, have you ever tried? Um, if you needed to buy I did not I did not really need uh but in the beginning probably 2015 out of curiosity I just went and they did a small credit line for us. But we were pretty self-funded most of the time. Oh, I mean one time we opened one gallery, there was partner and then in a year we just bought him out. So you you've had a good run. Good for you. Okay. What financial mistake in building your business uh taught you the most? Everybody makes mistakes. Was there one that you could share with our audience? Because people who are who's who's watching this? small medium-size entrep business entrepreneurs that are looking to grow their business and we're here to help them get there. Give them some tools, tricks, ideas uh on how to grow their business, how to get business funding, how to make the right decisions so maybe they don't make the mistakes we made, right? I think uh it's the numbers are very important and KPIs are very important. I think like um me personally we are very rare kind me and my husband that we are artists and we run the galleries and we we build pretty successful business but I feel it could be even more successful if we were more stricter with our personnel. I learned a lot through 10 years how to hire people but I feel like I had to let go some people faster. I agree with you and I agree with you. It was hard because we would treat everybody as family and uh that's a problem. I've learned and it took me a long time. So I I I live with a phrase now pace your hires accelerate your fires and then hire right CEO I still struggled. Um so right now I did find one person who actually handling all personnel and I can see that he has talent here. He just hires them one two months if they don't perform to his standards he ex he replaces them very quickly and uh for us also I would say I had too much on my plate to create art then kids one after another running four five locations it's just it's just time constraint you know you need to choose things that you're strong and that you enjoy to do and then give other things to other people I agree so what is um what advice would you give creative entre Entrepreneurs about money. Aren't all entrepreneurs have to be creative [laughter] and with money? And with money, right? Yes. [laughter] It's pretty broad question. Would you like to be be more specific? Yes. All right. Somebody who wants to get into the art business, a gallery, whether they're selling high-end art, low-end art, what would be the first piece of advice you would give them about money? I guess you can pay for somebody's else experience that to get you faster. I believe in coaching. I did like four or five years of Tony Robbins all coaching and now and like different business entrepreneurship. I feel like there are people who did something that you want to do 20 years. They 20 years ahead of you. Why to go and do your own bumps and your own mistakes? Find this person and uh he'll help you. Like we right now I I started to offer uh building art advisory. I we produce so much art. I want to help people if they want to open art advisory or art gallery. I will give them like opportunity just to like invest in the art. We'll give them all knowledge. That's what we're trying to do. One of the branch of our business. I have to tell you I'm listening to you and and you have a really good way of painting your picture even through words your story which is I could see how you probably create some good art. All right. So people see beautiful galleries and they see finished pieces. What's the hardest season of your journey that nobody knows about? Hardest season was each time when I was postpartum. I'm actually coming off my third postpartum. I uh I love business of art. I love entrepreneurship. But each time I'm pregnant, it's hormonal changes in the body. I feel like I becoming new person. All these sleepless nights, it's just like uh wreck you off. It's not easy. and then little kids. So, um that's amazing. You're managing children, you're managing your husband, you're managing a career. That's a that's a lot. Thank you. But yeah, this is for for a lot of women. Um what takes priority? Tell me. Is it the job? Is it the art? Is it the kids? I'm sure it's not the husband. Okay. But um what is there is season for everything? What I thought, okay, till 40 I want to have three kids. So yes, I'm not going to be as productive as I am like before 35, but um kids grow up quickly. I can do business till I'm 80, 100 years old if I would like to. But kids, I have to finish like by 40. This is biology. So I have to give priority to that. Yes, I'm maybe 60% efficient in my business, but uh kids going to school and like things coming back to to normal. Was there a time money was tight? Yeah, I was all the time up and downs. Up and downs. Each time I'm like not in business, something's getting loer. Yeah. So, it's always uh up and down. Um did you ever wonder was this dream worth it? I have a check question to myself like if I had $100 million, what would I be doing? Will I be doing the same thing what I'm doing? Yes, I would have these kids that I have even if it was hard but I love them and I would be painting and I would be building galleries probably I will do even more things but so I have to check I I do check like that all the time on check yourself so so when it was really hard right and there's doubts as entrepreneurs we have doubts what was the part that kept you going like what was it that you said nah I'm going forward I'm going to continue this was it belief in your vision was it belief in yourself Okay. What was it? Was it those 10 people that convinced you that you're a great artist that bought your first 10? There are these uh difficult moments. What I'm looking at, I'm looking back three, four, five years and I'm looking, okay, I had some other difficult moments. Sometimes maybe harder, maybe a little bit um easier, but I think we persevered and went through and somehow things resolved. So I say yes, it is hard now. I just need to keep going. do another step. There will be some solution. You just need to keep going and doing something. There is failure is not an option. Right. I I like the we part. I assume it's you and your husband, right? Yes. I'm I'm thinking also about my team as well. Who's the boss? You or him? We It's not easy to work with your spouse in the business, right? Yes. We responsible for different parts of business. That's why I think we together uh we in this business together 15 years and we're together more than 15 years. I know it is like not easy. Sometimes couples don't survive [laughter] and couple in business together it's even harder. So I applaud us that we're together. Is he your biggest fan? He is. He is. Yes. That's good. That's important. Right. I think in the beginning it was um he was my biggest cheer cheerleader when I just started because he at least was a little bit familiar with the art world. I did not know much. So he would support me and give me belief in the paintings that I would make. He would guide me. It's good. Until I got my own confidence. That's really good. You know, you sell something that people don't need. Okay. They need No, they don't. They desire it. Okay. [laughter] Okay. What has selling art taught you about people? Listen, nobody needs a Picasso on the wall. Okay. I think people need to celebrate their successes. It's the same the art, luxury cars, luxury items. It's it's something that you can celebrate your achievement or like it's an interesting sales take on and also it is uh something part of beauty of life. Entrepreneurs grind every day. So this is like music art it is it just it's a little different music and art. It's a little different but inspiration music doesn't cost $50,000 to hang on a wall. Yeah. But you can go and attend concert. It doesn't still going to also art. It doesn't have to be expensive. We're talking about only blue art. IKEA. I love IKEA art. There is a lot of inexpensive art. It's all visual. It's just why the blue chip art is expensive because it's like say Picasso painted it. It's somebody who has a very high marketable value touched it. But art is all over us and uh it's like it's not about money, I guess. And and I don't want to come off the wrong way here. I think that art is important. it it you know I I'm I'm very much into art you know when we travel we visit galleries and museums uh everywhere we can uh I am a little skeptical when I do walk into galleries and I I've [snorts] done it I've walked in because I liked something and you know um and certain many times it's just not something I could afford but I will tell you that I wasn't in most of the times what turned me off were the people that were sizing me up right they really turned me off especially from you coming like from Soviet background I meet it all the time I am also like from that part of the world I will give you angle from the interior design like people who grew up in Soviet place they very lo they love art very much they go to museums very cultural people but we did not grow up like with big homes that have empty walls and they need arts. We We had carpets on our walls basically when we grow up. Rugs. Rugs. Yes. Here I was asking myself, how come I moved to California and this business succeeds? Because I didn't grow up with that. It's just Americans. They have different culture. Um they have these big homes and they have culture that uh like they want to put artwork on their walls. We sell mostly to Americans or like to western people. I don't have many posts Soviet people unless they lived really here 20 30 years. It's just different mentality. And I understand also that you walk into the gallery, but you walk into the gallery, it is retail store. So of course it's their job to pair you and artwork. This is their job. That's true. So I'm not going to be upset. If you don't want that, they sell you good. What do you think drives entrepreneurs or people more? Is it logic or emotion? Both. Well, emotion probably first. You have to want something, right? Have to want something very like you have a desire and then you make logic work. Do you think that um trust is more important than talent? Am I going to trust you to uh to to advise me on which piece of art I should have as opposed to buying a name that's recognized? I'm going to walk into your gallery and there's a gallery next door selling a a [snorts] well-known artist, right? And your gallery is not selling it. some somebody nobody ever heard of. What's more important? Trusting you or or trusting the talent. You meet me for the first time. How you can trust me? You don't trust yet. It develops. It develops. As a gallerist, we do our job to educate you, to give you information, truthful information, and to see what is your real need. Uh what you you know what's wrong with my wall. Nothing wrong. This is your office. You decorate it the way you like. This is important pieces for you. As I see, this is collectibles. This is your collection and it's important to you. It's about emotion. And you spent a pretty long time like collecting it, assembling it here. And you're proud of it. Very well done. Very well done. Very well done. Very few people can do that. Actually acknowledge what somebody has or what somebody and you have a good eye. You saw it right away. Oh, me I would say somebody would say, "Oh, you need to move this and you need to move that." And right away you throw a person off. You criticize them and that that will never work. Actually, you know, oh, here we go with the actually. Are you sure you want to do the actually? All right, go ahead. Let's hear the actually. I see you love music. I see the faces here. If I would want to sell you some art, probably I would introduce you to some pieces that have a connection to some things that you have already. We have some paintings that are black and white. This is photographs, but there are they're signed photographs, right? Right. But I mean as a type of art but say if you had space in the wall like say you say you have a big wall um you could be you you already have this wall occupied but say if you need a large painting I maybe would s suggest you a painting um of what's your favorite musician for example I don't have a favorite musician okay I have many favorite musicians yeah okay or maybe some moment or some uh some moment but connected something with music, you know, this is like a the path we would take. Music is really to explore. Music is my um means a lot to me. I see also you love sports. Some sports. Yes. Yes, for sure. Um you play chess? Yes. Are you any good? Didn't play a long time, but uh could play. Okay, we might have a game of chess. I got this. If everything disappeared tomorrow, the galleries, the business, the artwork, and all that remained was your reputation, what would you want people to remember about Elena? Uh, it's a deep question, but I I feel like people I I don't know. I don't know. I'm I I it's it's interesting. I am on one hand, I am known, but I feel people care about themselves and uh and the big things of universe. how many like famous people were there and people don't remember about them you know so I just have fun I do what I do enjoy my family have good relationships good good good friendships and uh I don't care what people are really going to remember I want to be remembered as a good person that I can help some people uh in a way that I can but overall it's just you know I I look philosophically on that maybe when I started when I started to paint. I thought, "Wow, this painting will survive another 100 years." But then you look at Sumerian people. What do you know about these people? [laughter] They probably were very important people and high achievers there. But we don't know nothing about them. There will be time. There will be, oh, they were these Americans. They were very nice and important and smart people and it will be gone civilization. I I think I just look at this philosophically. [laughter] Okay. just trying to have fun right now. There are people uh watching right now who have talent, dreams, and ideas, but they're waiting for permission. What's the price of waiting? And what would Elena tell the person who's afraid to bet on themselves? Well, life is so short. I just I I was in banking. I I didn't like to be in corporate world. Even I had great team that was there. You just have to go and do what you like. Uh it will be good if it can make you money and just life is short. You just can't wait uh when you're older, younger, right moment. Just need to try. Just need to try. Just go for it. Right. Elena, this was an incredible conversation. And what I take away from this is that uh you just got to do it, right? You do it. you go for it and you do it. Um, it's also about having the courage to create your own market, your own brand, and um, and refusing to wait for permission. It's about understanding the value that isn't determined by other people. It starts with believing in yourself. Um, I'm Alex Schwarz and this is Unbankable. And Elena, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you. See you next time.