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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Losing My Father
00:00
Hey guys, welcome to the podcast. I'm one of those Jesse French and I'm also joined by my good friend. Chris, no, I'm here. I got it in. You win. You win. I did it fast. That's right. That's right. What is seize the moment? Good work. Yeah, I was like cutting you off in traffic. I know. I know how you drive too. So you're just taking the initiative. So most of my most impressive driving was when I lived overseas in the Middle East.
00:28
I did learn in a really, I already learned how to drive before that obviously, but like I have not really honed my skill. I can agree with that and I have not driven in the Middle East, but bravo. I'm sure there is a level of grad level skills that you acquired. Good job. Thank you. So now we're talking about my driving and not introducing our next driver. Well, it's fitting because we're joined by our friend Bart Lillie, who is a legendary driver. Like you are packing up because this is the most varied segway ever like parts of.
00:58
I'm gonna have an illness and he's laughing so hard. He's just a wild driver, like, legendarily wild. You know, this story just gets better and better over time. I just have to- It's not just one story, Bart. It is not just one. Not just one story. Okay, fair, there are several stories. I too learned how to perfect and hone my driving overseas. And I was in Southern France, and I tell you what, I felt like...
01:25
It was a perpetual video game. It was not a video game. I mean, maybe I'm not so proud of this, but like the interstate in Southern France, it is like mountain driving with curves, tunnels, bridges. It is like, you could pay to do that. And I just thought it was like, I would play on Euro pop and blast the radio driving through the tunnels with these students. It was.
01:52
What is that? Iphone 65 or something. Oh my gosh. That has taken me back a little bit. That story is, I believe is not exaggerated. Other stories that you're talking about do get exaggerated here and there. And I will just leave it at that for now. Okay. Well, I've been in the car with you. You still drive like it's a video game. Always winning. Yeah. Well, Bart, thanks for being back on.
02:21
the podcast with us today. And you know, previously in our previous conversation, we were talking about some of the things as you've been exploring and reflecting on your dad and who he was and what he brought to the world and his fathering energy to people in an orphanage in Chicago and a camp in Michigan and to you. We alluded to this in the last conversation, but he is no longer with us. And so we wanted to invite you to share a little bit about
02:50
what that was like and what actually happened to your dad. Yeah, obviously we're all mortal. And so death is coming for all of us. And in most cases for our parents before us. So it's never something I guess that we should be surprised at, but then in my case, it just happened tragically and it was really, it was early. I was 23 when he died and not even quite.
03:19
a year out of college. So you know, I mean, he's 54 when he died. I'm 53 right now. And so I'm coming up on that, that milestone in my own life. And I'm about to pass him, you know, so talking about driving and the, and the road markers going by, it is interesting to do that. After
03:45
I mentioned before that my family moved to a camp and my dad started working at a camp the year I graduated from high school. And so I went to college. Have I said that I went to Michigan and the university? I probably added that part out too, so you can say that now and we'll make sure that doesn't make it in there. Just kidding. And gosh, I love that. So I had tons of fun in college and it was there that I got involved with crew and Campus Crusade. And just...
04:14
through some great connections, found myself in Istanbul between my junior and senior years and was on a trip with them. Loved it and decided to go back for the year after college to spend a year there. Took Turkish on one of the universities there, it was a great experience. I ended up playing handball, the team handball that you may have seen it at the Olympics.
04:39
It is not a sport that is popular in America. And I swear that like I was reading the poster and it said Tuesday night, 7pm in the gym volleyball practice. And I thought, oh, I'm kind of tall. I like volleyball. I'll show up. And so I showed up and these guys are playing handball and they're just kind of warming up. And so I'm like, I, I'll just, you know, I'm trying to meet people. I'm throwing a handball just like everybody else. And before I know it, they're saying.
05:06
the captain of the team comes over to me and he's like, I need you on my team. You could run faster than everybody else because you're not a smoker. And everybody else, so I found myself on the team, the university level, not a little club team, but the university level, they wanted me on the team. And that was my year. That was my year post college. And my dad and mom in 1994, I mean, there's no cell phones. I mean, long distance phone calls international was an arm and a leg.
05:35
We had a fax machine to communicate back and forth. And we made some plans and dad and mom were gonna come to visit me in the spring and to March and they were gonna spend about a week kind of like doing some travel and some touring. And so we did that. We had this amazing time as a family, without my brother, but the three of us. I took him to Ephesus. We took him to some of the key places in Istanbul. And then I even took him to get a haircut at the barber
06:05
I like to go to, which was super classic because they like to burn the hair out of your ears and whatnot and they did that to my dad and my dad just laughed. And he told the story again and again, like that was his like favorite moment, which is weird. But it was- You guys, you have to experience this. If you're like, like do enlighten us cause I have not experienced this and you guys are each like, yeah, it's no big deal, get your hair, get your hair braided. I love Bart, I love.
06:35
that your dad laughed at this and enjoyed it because the first time it happened to me, I was like, what is happening? Why are you coming that close to my face with a flame? What is the sizzling that I'm hearing in my ear? What, what, ah! And you're not only doing it to the ear to burn the ear hair, but like, there's, you know, the upper cheek hair that maybe just a little peach fuzz and like, they're doing it everywhere. And I was, it's just one of the experiences of the Turkish barber.
07:05
Oh yeah, I mean, Ali was my guy and it was fantastic. Like it was, and my dad had a great experience. So it's that kind of memory, you know, and then, and then the, I think a little the next, the next day or the day after they went home and I gave my dad a hug, gave my mom a hug and off you went. They get back to the U.S. and I think through Detroit, I don't even know what city, my mom then goes back to the camp.
07:32
and my dad flies to Orlando to help my grandma drive home from snowboarding in Florida to Michigan. So he would drive the car, she would fly in and then wouldn't have to make that long drive you know in a car. He spent a few days down there and again I know this because my friends and my dad's friends my uncle and my grandma they told me the story about how my dad loved that trip to Turkey.
08:01
and the haircut and the places and all of those things. So my dad had, we had this great experience. And then he gets to Detroit. My grandma was flying in on Saturday and he's waiting near the airport at McDonald's. He grabbed his, he'd gotten a coffee or something and he was just sitting in the car in the back of the parking lot, reading a newspaper, has his coffee. And while he's waiting, a car pulls up
08:31
in front of him. A guy gets out and walks up to his car and he had the windows down and uh don't know what was said. I don't know how it played out. Most likely the guy wanted to rob him and wanted some some money and uh my dad didn't probably handle that well. He put the car into drive and uh
08:59
The next thing I know, the guy shot him and he died instantly. So the car then out of control and drive rammed into the other car. They pin the two cars together. The getaway car, so to speak, then was out of commission and these two guys fled. But that led to the authorities tracking them down and finding them.
09:28
arresting and convicting them of my dad's murder. Oh my goodness. And that would all take time, but like the reality is he was dead instantly on a Saturday morning at a McDonald's parking lot. My grandma would land, her plane would come in, nobody, and then she would wait and no one would come. Oh my goodness. There's no cell phones. There's no way to make that phone call. Grandma would checked in.
09:57
eventually called my mom. What's happening? My mom knew nothing. Another cousin came and picked her up at the airport. Hours are going by and there's no information. And then a state trooper pulls into my mom's driveway three hours away from Detroit and he gives her the news that
10:26
my dad was murdered by two men at this time. And that's Saturday afternoon at this point. And it's one of those things that the family sort of all gathered together at that point. It came, my mom drove down to my grandma's house and said, you know, the whole family now is together and grieving, living that experience together. And my brother's there.
10:56
Everyone knows except for me. And my mom knows that she has to make a phone call. Has to let me know. And so she calls and I don't exact two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning on Sunday for me, eight hours ahead, some whatever, six hours, seven hours ahead, I get the phone call and my roommate wakes me up, Bart, the phone's for you. What, what? And then
11:26
It's my mom. I'm like, mom, what's how what's going on? And, and she says, Bart, two men tried to rob your dad and then they and they killed him. And I remember my I remember my words, no. And just the shock of that moment, because I had just seen him a week ago. We had just gone to the barber, we had done all those things. And you never expect to hear that phrase.
11:57
And yet that reality hit and here I am, like 5,000, 8,000 miles away. And so it just became a, that was the thing, you know? And so my roommates, I was on the phone, I don't know what else I said. I said, I'm coming home, I'm coming home and hang up. And I tell my roommates and they supported me, cared for me and it was great to have those guys in my life at that moment. They got me to the airport and
12:26
They book a ticket and I'm going through Frankfurt. And so I get on that first flight. And at the time I would wear contact lenses, but I didn't bother that morning to put my contacts in. I just went with my glasses. And I remember getting through security in Istanbul and it's like 5.30, six o'clock in the morning, sometime around then, turning, waving to my friend Paul, waving to Doug, and then...
12:55
I'm on my own and now I am making that journey back home. Totally on my own in a sense. And I get to, I come around the corner and I'm finding the way to my gate and I have to come up these stairs. And so I'm coming up these stairs and they face to the east. I'm walking towards these huge windows, floor ceiling windows. And I can tell the light is.
13:23
flooding in, the morning is about to dawn, and as I come up the stairs, the sun crests over the horizon. And at that moment I realize, oh my gosh, today is Easter.
13:41
And Easter, as a believer, that has meaning to me for my faith, like Jesus is risen. And that knowing my dad had a faith in, faith in Christ as well, like my dad is also risen. And so, really powerful moment, just walking through that, that sunrise, and that being Easter morning.
14:08
I found my way to the gate, got on the plane, slept the first flight, you know, leaning against the window a few hours in Frankfurt. Had some, I think some personal and meaningful time, uh, reading the Psalms, uh, really kind of connecting with, with God and in a way that meant a lot for me. And then made it home to be with family. Wow. All right. Thank you for sharing.
14:37
I can't even imagine. And thank you for the generosity with all of us that you've offered us in sharing that story with us. When you think about the years since that 23 year old, right? Since you as a 23 year old experienced and walked through that, right? It's not been a few years.
15:06
It's been that and more since he's been gone. And yet I still see on your face and hearing your voice, such a tenderness towards him and towards that story inside of you. How does that story live? Where does that story live? That's a good question. I've told this story several times to different people in different places. So it's not an unfamiliar one.
15:35
And I think it, I think the meaning that it has for me, where it ties to my faith, it ties to Easter, it ties to Turkey and a place that I love and people I love. It just is, and it's my story. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's the one that I have. And I would love to have him back.
16:04
I would love to have hit my late 20s when I started dating Jenny. And then I would love to have him there on my wedding day. I would love to have him there with my kids. None of them have met him. And that is sad. And yet there's a part of me, whether it's the optimist, it's always moving forward.
16:33
to the next thing. That is kind of how I'm wired, looking ahead. And so there's a sense that I can't go back and redo this story in my life. I just have to live it and remember it. And so telling the story is personal and it's meaningful to me. And the reality is I don't have my dad and it motivates me and encourages me to
17:00
engagements, if you still have your dad, what are you taking for granted in that relationship right now? Because I can't go back. I have a story that doesn't, that my dad was taken from me way too early, 30 years ago. And that doesn't make my story worse or better, or yours better or worse, but it does, I think.
17:32
give me a perspective on being without a dad that only other orphans can own. One of the phrases that you have coined wonderfully over the years is this phrase of being all in and you embody that. I think you said it in a previous episode of You Live That Way.
18:00
holding nothing back and being all in. I wonder, did your dad's death begin forging that in you? Did it strengthen that? Was the origin of that? Before his death, what is the intersection between his death and, yeah, the strain that you embody? That's a good question. I don't know that I've thought of it in that way.
18:29
If I can take it a different direction to think about my dad, I'm like, and if I put that trait on him, I'm like, how is my dad all in? What were ways that he was all in and would have modeled that to me? And, uh, and I can see it in his work ethic. Like he would work hard. He was a, grew up as a farmer. Had.
18:54
I've talked about it before, just going to an orphanage to say, I'm going to support these kids and then getting in construction. But construction alone wasn't enough. You know, during my younger years, he would always have a side hustle in back in farming or some other thing. And so his work was a big piece of it. His faith was a big piece too. I mean, small town church was part of my life growing up.
19:24
And there's a lot of good in that. And then there's, you know, as I live my life, I look back on it and I think, ah, I don't know if I'm in the same spot that I was way back then. And I feel a lot of peace about that too. But I know that where my dad was, he was all in at that moment too. And yeah, I don't, yeah. I think just being all in, I feel like I'm, it's kind of who I am, but I never thought about it as from my dad, but I can see that.
19:53
was something my dad had to in the way he engaged me and other kids as a coach, as a mentor, as a leader, more so with his actions than with his words, unfortunately. And that would be the one thing I wish I had. I had him because if I was with him again, I would be asking him questions and the curiosity that I've learned from men like you guys and the way to get to the deeper story, the story below the surface.
20:23
I wish I could have that time with him. And that's where I think with men who still have their dad, I'm sure it's hard. I just don't know. But to say, hey, could we go deeper? I did, interestingly enough, a couple of years ago, have a chance to ask his younger brother, my uncle, some of those questions. And I called him up, I said, hey, I'm gonna be in the area. Can I...
20:50
stay an extra night and go visit. I'd love to ask you questions about my dad. He was honored and said, of course. And so I pulled up and it's out on the East Coast and he took me to the best Philly cheesesteak spot I've ever been to. I mean, hands down, hole in the wall. I think it's Tony's cheesecakes or something like that. It was brilliant. And we came back and sat and I said, just tell me stories.
21:21
like, you know, what stories do you remember? And he told me about being on the farm and my dad loved to play softball. And he was in the church softball league and said one Tuesday evening, he wanted to go play softball, but my grandpa said, no, you can't go until the chores are done on the farm. There might be rain coming, the hay needs to get moved in, all these farm things that, my dad's like, well, I'm gonna go anyway. And...
21:47
My uncle Glenn is about eight years younger than my dad. So my dad's 17, maybe 18. My uncle is maybe nine or 10. Sure enough, they go off to softball. It rains, he comes back, and it's like, my grandpa's like, got in his face. And my dad, they actually were physically in like wrestling and my grandpa threw him down. And my uncle remembers this story. And I'm just, as the son,
22:17
who never got to hear stories like that about my grandfather and about my dad. It was a moment of just like, wow, words about my dad and words about his life. And there are other stories that my uncle shared and others have said great things about him too. And so I know there are stories that I wish I could get from my dad that I've had to get in other ways, but I'll take what I can get and hope for the rest. But I think kind of as we close today,
22:47
for you to offer some of your experience around. I'm sure there's a lot of men listening right now who either similarly, maybe not through such a violent means, but similarly don't have their dad anymore, or they don't have their dad and never did. I'm curious if you, like you mentioned, you walked the aisle.
23:13
You had children, you've moved continents and states, you've experienced all kinds of things without your father around. And I'm curious, where did you find the fathering that you needed in those moments? I wish I knew, I don't know. I think there have been men in my life at different times who have been the encouragement.
23:43
and they have been the support. And I think as men, we offer words of blessing and kindness, and it's a father to do that to a son that is rich, that is soul nourishing. So I think on my wedding day, I was surrounded by good men and I'm grateful for them, and they did a great job of honoring and celebrating me. And then.
24:10
times that my kids are born and there's another story. Yeah, there's a story there. That again, it's having other people in your life who can speak words of blessing. I think if we don't get those words from our dads, I think God can meet us and does meet us. And I think God uses other men to speak them to us. There are a handful of men in my life who I can go back and say, he did it.
24:41
that phrase, that word, that time over here, those are moments that I'm like, it was nourishing deep. And I mean, I have had a dad be able to speak that. My dad wasn't able to speak that, but I have had other men who have given me fathering in those moments and I'm really grateful for that. So whether you have a father who has never said anything, again, I think that encouragement and the reason why I'm in
25:09
I'm a part of restoration projects because I find this. This is a circle of men that I am so willing to be all in on because of what I get as a man out of it. Well, thank you, Bart, again, for your generosity with us and sharing your story, your journey, what that was like to walk through those days before, days of, and days after this tragic experience. And I'm mindful.
25:38
how it's not just a tragic experience in the past, that it is still one. Yeah. It is still one. So thank you. It's been good to have you. Thanks for listening. It's great to be here. Thanks, Bart, for joining us.