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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:00)
Greetings! How are you, Taina?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:02)
Hello.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:03)
Today is going to be a grab bag episode for our 99th. Ding. I should have turned off my notifications. I'll start again. Hi, Tyena.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:09)
Hehehehehe
Hello!
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:13)
Today is our 99th episode, which means our next episode will be a live episode. So if you want to come and join us and chat with us, that will be live on YouTube next week on Tuesday because Monday is a holiday. So we're gonna do it on the 26th at noon central, one Eastern. Find us on our YouTube channel, come join the chat, talk to us.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:41)
and we're gonna be doing some reflections and stuff. But for today, for our 99th episode, our, is that the penultimate episode, I believe? Yes, I love that word. We're just doing a grab bag, because we don't know what to talk about. And we just thought we'd hit on some trending topics that'll be less trending by the time you hear this, but hopefully you're still interesting. So where do you wanna start, Aina?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:49)
And ultimate, yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
⁓ let's start with the roast.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:07)
boy, Kevin Hart. It was the roast of Kevin Hart. I don't like roasts. I'm gonna start off there. I'm personally just not a huge fan of being mean to people, just to be mean to people. Like I know I'm not a comedian, I'm not a comic. So this isn't my lane and I understand that. And it's not meant for me. So I guess I'm sort of prefacing to say this wasn't intended for me. I'm not the audience for this because I don't like roasts in general. I don't think they're particularly fun or funny. That said, I know some people enjoy them.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:13)
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:34)
I find that humor is best when you are punching up. I firmly believe that. I think it's very much aligned with an intersectional approach to life. Like in the same ways that when we are fighting power dynamics, we need to worry about the power dynamics above us and not so in point being as a white woman, my fight should be with white men. My fight doesn't need to be with black men.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:50)
Mm
One.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:01)
Right. My fight doesn't need to be
Taina Brown she/hers (02:02)
One.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:02)
obviously with black women. My fight is with so I can fight patriarchy and racism, but where those overlap and now racism is a factor, I tend to stay out of discussions about black men because I feel like that's punching laterally at best if not punching down. Right. And so I feel like my fight is against racism and patriarchy in the places that it is something that I have power to affect change and where I'm not.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:15)
Okay.
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:28)
potentially causing harm because I also share an oppressor identity. And that's why I think when we're roasting or when people are making comedians in general, when they're making jokes, I think again, it's about I think at its best, comedy is about calling out power, right? Speaking truth to power and effecting change in that way. think George Carlin did it really well because, you know, he was a white man and he directed his stuff at like The Rich.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:30)
Yeah.
You
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:56)
and the powerful and the people who were higher on that hierarchy than him instead of trying to punch down. From what I heard, could, you know, please, if I'm wrong, let me know. And I think part of my problem with roast is too often there's a lot of punching laterally and punching down that ends up, my opinion, feeling really yucky. And I think that was part of the problem with this roast is there was a lot of that. And that said, I also feel like it's not exactly my lane to be talking about.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:56)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:22)
because much of the humor that's in question is not all of it, because some of it's from white folks, and I will speak to that. But some of it is either black men or black women talking to each other, and that doesn't feel like it's my place to provide commentary. So that's my starting point. How about you?
Taina Brown she/hers (03:35)
Hmm.
⁓ I don't like roast either. There's a lot of secondhand cringe that happens watching a roast. think that just makes me very uncomfortable. I don't mind being mean to people. Like if it's warranted, there's also, like a snarky, like I just kind of have like a little bit of a, not a little bit, a lot actually, if you ask my wife, but like a really snarky kind of.
mean side, playful, playfully mean, like mean flirting kind of side to me. so like I, I mean, I think being mean is, it depends, it depends. But with the roast, like I think that's like, that's not like spontaneously getting into like some banter with someone or something happening and now you're like,
respectfully or disrespectfully putting someone in their place. know, like, like this is a curated environment specifically to be mean to people. And so, ⁓ and it's, it's usually the energy is usually like who can be the meanest.
which I think that's what gives me the biggest ick when it comes to roast. It's a competition to see who can go the lowest and who can be the ugliest and who can be the meanest. So I didn't watch it. I did not watch the roast of Kevin Hart. I usually don't watch roast. I've seen you... Yeah. Right, right. I've seen... Yeah, it's one of those things like...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:51)
I did not either, so to be clear, this is all secondhand news for both of us. And I don't watch it because I don't enjoy roasts.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:02)
you watch it or I watch it anyway or if I see any clips like because I've seen clips of a few of them like on social media but like even the roast of... what's that bitch's name? the white lady? the author who... no not Chelsea Hannah, she's not a comedian. she's like a right-wing conservative. she wrote books.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:14)
There's so many bitches, I don't know who.
Talking handler is human. ⁓
⁓ Ian Poulter. I
remember that one now, yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:27)
Aunt Coulter,
yes, Aunt Coulter. Like she had a roast a few years ago and I remember seeing a few clips and I laughed. I mean, the jokes are funny, but there was also a part of me that was like, ugh, like you just get that, like I get that uncomfortable feeling of just like, I don't want to be in the room while this is happening, even though I'm technically not in the room, but I'm privy to being part of the audience, you know, like the virtual space.
And so I was like, this feels like a private conversation that I'm like, now a fly in the wall on four.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:59)
Listen, my
husband and I will sometimes make jokes or say things that we wouldn't say with other people about people, right? Like I might say something really kind of cruel about someone I hate or something that I would never say in another space or with other people. I think we do need our outlets to get out some of our dark thoughts, our unkind thoughts. It's not like we don't all have them, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (06:07)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:25)
And do those things need to be aired for everyone? Are they is it appropriate? Like, do can you think Ann Coulter is a hateful person and not have to insult the way she looks in front of a large audience? Because again, would I maybe tell my husband, say something not so kind about the way and Coulter looks? I probably have. Right. But would I do that in with an audience knowing that
Taina Brown she/hers (06:29)
No.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:51)
That is not helping women. Even if I don't like her, it doesn't help women to, again, reduce women to looks when there is right there for the picking the fact that she's a hateful person, right, to talk about instead or the ways that she's contributing to the rhetoric that's out there. Like there are so many other things that we can talk about that are not being so reductive to, again, play into not even just stereotypes, but play into
Taina Brown she/hers (06:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:19)
the systemic harms that are caused to people with certain identities, right? So when we reduce women to only their looks, we are contributing to things like rape culture, right? Now it may seem like, it's only a, it's just a joke. And I get that. But it's all of those things compounded that give men this internal permission to treat women like they are nothing but pieces of meat, right? And so, and the same to me is to be said when we're talking about people of color.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. It's just a joke. Yeah.
huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:48)
When we reduce black people to their blackness in these jokes, right? We could say, ah, it's a joke. You're being too uptight. But it's the culmination of all of that. Then again, gives the people who don't have any depth of understanding, who don't know the people, who don't get the relationships, right? That's why it's like amongst yourselves and your comedy club when there's nobody around, not being recorded.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:52)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:12)
be how you want to be, but it's the televised nature of it that's inviting other people in. And I think, again, it's about this permission structure that I think it creates for people who already have that seed of hate for someone to say, well, he gets away with it. He can call on the N-word. He can do the whatever. So why can't I? Or to even feed into some of those beliefs that you already hold about those people. And that, to me, is we just have to be so careful. I just think people take their platforms a little too lightly.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:16)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, people forget that like, the things that we say and do don't exist in a vacuum. Like, they exist in conversation with these social structures that we are a part of. And so everything that comes out of our mouth or every action that we take, like, we have to, not that we should be like so anxious or so fearful that we can't like just be, but also like, we have to be reflective about how is
how I'm behaving or the things that I'm saying and doing, like how are those things going to be perceived within this wider culture that I'm a part of? And also you don't want people to get the wrong idea about you, right? Like if you're a person who is like against rape culture, things like that, like then you joking about whether it feels harmless in the moment or not, like can give someone the wrong impression about.
where you stand and where your values are, right? And so it's definitely.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:38)
Well, here's an example
of a joke that I feel, mean, cause I'll tell you some of the things roughly, ⁓ since you didn't watch it and maybe you haven't seen as many clips as I've seen, but there was a basketball star, don't ask me to tell you who I don't follow basketball. But a black man who came out and made a joke about Chelsea Handler. And the joke was related to basketball. So he said something about like, I would never date Chelsea Handler because I'm whoever I am. And I don't, I don't hit threes.
Because I'm assuming that means he doesn't he's known for not making his making shots, three shots, right? Three pointers. And at the same time, though, calling her a three. Now she laughed. He's black, she's white. Right. But there is also the male and female dynamic and the there I think there are things that he could have joked about with Chelsea Handler about being a white woman. And some of the things she's done in the past, like having a special as I remember, like Uganda, be kidding me or something. Right. Like I think there was plenty there.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:30)
that as a black man, he could have made jokes about and critiqued that would have been so much so appropriate and calling out the power dynamic there versus falling into the patriarchal stuff and attacking only her looks and attacking her as a, know, reducing her to appearance. When again, I just think there are so many other things there that that's, you know, he's a basketball player. He's not a comedian. That's also part of the problem. We have these people come on who aren't
Taina Brown she/hers (10:39)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:59)
comics trying to be funny. And that's an issue because they don't know what they're doing. And they're writing. They're just doing the jokes somebody gave them. But somebody with some skill and some intelligence could have easily. And I'm not saying he's not intelligent, but he's not. He doesn't have comic intelligence, right? Like he's not right. Yeah, he's not a comic. So this isn't his forte. But as somebody who understood that and had some depth to their comedy, could have written jokes that would have been fantastic and called her out on stuff that she's done that has been about the
Taina Brown she/hers (11:00)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Comic intelligence, Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (11:26)
power identity she holds rather than attacking the oppressed identity she holds. Does that make sense? And that's what rubs me the wrong way is that kind of stuff. So I'll let you tell anything you want to say about that one before you talk about some of the racist jokes.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:32)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
No, no, I have nothing to say there. Again, I haven't even seen any of the clips. I just know that it happened. And I don't, I think what you said about like, if you're comics and you're in a room and you're roasting each other, like go for it. But like to put this on such a general audience, like for people to just sit in and watch, I think that's where we kind of lose the plot a little bit.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (11:44)
OK. OK.
Mm-hmm. Okay, so...
Yeah, you know,
and again, they can say, get over yourself. You guys are too uptight. Oh, you must be a lot of fun. That's the kind of shit that I hear online all the time when you critique this kind of stuff. Men love especially to come up and be like, oh, you must be a lot of fun at a party. Like not with you. But I can actually have a great time at a party. Yeah, actually, I do have a lot of fun. But that doesn't have to come at the expense of calling people names and being unkind or relying on power dynamics.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:30)
to insult people. And they'll say that. But then Chelsea Handler has, I think she has literally over million followers on some of her platforms. She has a very large audience. I'm assuming that basketball player probably has a very large audience as well. But this clip of Chelsea Handler has been shown everywhere and of her just laughing along. And part of it is I don't fault her for laughing because also when you are the person in the joke who is the person who's
Taina Brown she/hers (12:33)
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:59)
identity is being battered, right? Your oppressed identity in that moment is the one that's being attacked by somebody with the dominant identity in that moment, right? So this was a patriarchal kind of joke. So I understand why she might've laughed. I think every woman can relate to that too. We've been in those moments with men making jokes about women's appearance or whatever and feeling that pressure to, ha ha ha, yeah, right? But.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:06)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:25)
That clip of her being shown to her millions of followers of her laughing about the fact that she's a three and he won't hit her because he's too good for her. What does that tell all the young women that follow her? Can she laugh about that joke in a comedy club with him or wherever she wants? Yeah, but when she puts it out on a big public platform like that, knowing the young women, younger women follow her, women who are in this world, when she shows up to be somebody who's so strong and tough and
Taina Brown she/hers (13:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:52)
Whatever, like, anyway, OK. The big jokes that got all the feedback and the reason there's getting a lot of critique as they should. One was from Pete Davidson. And I don't remember what his specific joke was, but he's a white comic. Shane Gillis, who got fired from SNL, you may remember years ago for some racist things in the past that he had said was there.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:15)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (14:16)
And then some other guy I don't
know who's also a white guy, Tony Hinchcliffe maybe, who is apparently a known MAGA kind of guy. Why those two? I always thought Pete Davidson was more progressive, so that's interesting. But the other two, they're known to be racist dicks. So why is Kevin Hart, does he get a say in who gets to be there? Who's deciding who's there? Why is he laughing along at these racist pricks jokes at his expense?
Taina Brown she/hers (14:28)
Boom.
Hmm.
Uh-huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (14:44)
And
then there is this part of me that understands it, right? I understand that reaction when you're in that moment. so one, Shane Gillis, the former SNL guy, made a joke about playing on Kevin Hart's height, fine, but saying something about how they would have to lynch him from a cactus or something because he's so short. Some sort of a joke about his height.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
God, that's
so distasteful.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:08)
It's disgusting. He made a lynching joke. And that's not funny anyway, but it's really not funny in a climate that we live in now. people like lynchings, think white people with power who don't understand anything think lynching ended long ago. Lynching is continuing. There are black people being lynched every year in the US. It still happens. So that was one.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:17)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:32)
Disgusting. And the other guy's joke, Tony Hinchcliffe's joke, was about George Floyd and saying something along the line of like, George Floyd would be laughing along with all this if he were here. But or something like if he were here, George Floyd would be laughing till he couldn't breathe.
leaving the pause in. I won't edit this very long pause of your disgusted reaction. Yeah. So those are the two that got the biggest feedback. I can't remember Pete Davidson's joke, but it was inappropriate too. And there was just a lot of like racism jokes. So what are your thoughts about those?
Taina Brown she/hers (16:00)
Mm-hmm ⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:05)
Pete Davidson's joke quickly is was different and not. So, OK, I want it because I want to make sure that I'm clear that about because it's important, I think, since I just talked about these two racist pricks making incredibly racist jokes. What's been interesting is Pete Davidson at the same time that Tony Hitchcliffe and whatever that other guy's name are are in so much trouble for the racist jokes. People are focusing in on Pete Davidson because he made a joke about Charlie Kirk.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:05)
Okay, cheers.
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:31)
And interestingly, so many people on the right are really upset about that, yet don't seem to have that same hate and vitriol for these disgusting jokes about lynching and about George Floyd, which by the way, George Floyd is a very important example of a modern day lynching. So anyway, go ahead. I want to hear your reactions to all of that since you didn't know about those.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:47)
Yeah, yeah.
well, well, I also I want to contextualize this for people who may not know a lot about, and I don't assume to be an expert on comedy culture and like Rose. Like I said, I don't watch Rose because they just give me too much secondhand embarrassment. But like when these people are there, they're intoxicated, like they're under the influence of
at least one if not multiple substances, right? So like some people are drunk and high. So like, so there's, there's a cultural, there's a lot happening on this stage, right? The other thing I will say is like,
And I remember having this conversation with an old boss of mine about just like...
The way geography plays a role in cultural norms, right? So for instance, this was when I lived in Atlanta. So if I had close friends from Atlanta who were white, who were using the N-word casually, in the way that black men use it towards each other, soft A, that would not.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (17:55)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:58)
be okay. But I have close friends from New York who are not Black, who use soft a n-word. And while in the bigger scope of culture, that generally is not okay, within closed doors, right, because of the nature of the relationship, because of the nature of the culture of the city, right, like it's different. It's different. I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying it's different from
that happening in the South somewhere, right? So like, again, there are a lot of things happening on this stage that contribute to these kinds of scenarios, right? There's the relationship dynamics, there's the alcohol and substance dynamics, there's the comedy dynamics, there's the race, there's the gender, right? Like there's so many layers here. Again, not making that.
making any of that okay, just setting the stage for like what we're walking into when we talk about something like this. That being said, again, like behind closed doors, if those are your buddies and those are the kind of jokes you want to make with the people that you're close to, like have at it, but I think it just it goes back to what you said earlier, like on a stage like this where
the level of influence, the amount of people that are gonna be watching this, I could interpret it the wrong way or not even interpret it because those are tasteless jokes. Like that's lazy comedy, first of all. Like that is such lazy comedy to like make a joke like that without having to actually use your intellect to make something funnier, to make a actual joke.
as opposed to just picking on something that... whatever. Anyway, yeah, that's pretty awful. I don't think that there's anything else to say besides that's not okay. It's pretty awful. And it doesn't surprise me that Pete Davidson is the one getting most of the attention for his Charlie Kirk joke versus the other two.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:56)
As I just looked up a little bit more about him as well while you were talking is he was the only one or well not that I shouldn't say only one again I didn't watch it but he was going after like Tony Hinchcliffe and some of these other folks on the stage and Calling out their shit like calling them Nazis and things like that So at least there was someone with power in the room who was calling out the power in the room for punching down so kudos to Pete Davidson on that so I want to be clear like
Taina Brown she/hers (20:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:22)
I'm not now equating him to Shane Gillis and Tony Hinchcliffe. He was calling them out. Good, because we need that. I want to just draw a line from like, so some of this can be like, who cares, right? Like I get where people say, oh, don't make such a big deal out of nothing. But I want to sort of go from here to something clearly political and sort of show the threads of how we get there.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:25)
Mm-hmm.
I'm here. Uh-huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:45)
And so the first is before, because I want to end up at gerrymandering. And I think this there's a real easy line to get there. And I think you probably can follow me to how this happens. But the in-between line, the in-between piece from here to there is what's also interesting is there's a lot of rhetoric online about this roast, about we were going to we don't have to talk about it. But there's also this life coach who's black who had claimed to have a PhD. It's been found out that maybe she's been lying about that.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:50)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:14)
There's a lot of on at least on threads where I tend to hang out and I don't know, but I know that Kevin Hart roast has been everywhere where there's been this lot of like judgy calling out, you know, being really critical and all of that and, and shamey. And I do find it interesting that there is so much sort of vitriol for these stories when they are centering black people, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (21:35)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:37)
verse like why is it that this Kevin Hart roast is getting so much feedback like this and everyone so many people sort of pointing to Kevin Hart as the problem here not necessarily the people who made the jokes them too but and and why is it this woman is getting all this hate when we could talk about Mel Robbins till we're blue in the face and her grifting and everything else and people don't seem to care I do find it interesting that the kinds of stories that get elevated like this for so much critique often
Taina Brown she/hers (21:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (22:06)
or stories that are centering black people. I don't know, do you have thoughts on that?
Taina Brown she/hers (22:08)
Hmm.
No, I do. I do. Because it does feel that way to me as well. I think when it's a white person at the center of the controversy, people who are generally, it feels like, much more gracious, much more willing to make excuses or to just let things pass. Or maybe it makes headlines but doesn't stay a headline very long, right? Like it easily gets overpassed or...
or overshadowed by something else. think there's a sense of exotification, right, when it comes to Black and Brown bodies, especially when it comes to like media and news that makes it sensational, right? Like that makes the story more sensational and more, it makes it more sticky, right? People are more likely to follow along.
because of this exotification. so, and when I say exotification, I mean, literally treating black and brown bodies like they're animals. And we can trace that all the way back to enslavement, right? And so, and how black and brown bodies were like.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:11)
⁓ hi there.
Go ahead.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:13)
No, how Black and brown bodies were like, just treated as inhumane as objects, right? To be gawked at, to be observed, right? As opposed to, they were stripped of their human dignity. And I think this is just a reflection of that kind of culture where Black and brown bodies continue to be stripped of their dignity in this sensationalization, this exotification of...
the news cycle, right? Where other stories don't seem as interesting because they don't have this caricature of a Black or Brown person at the center of it. And so it's less likely to be newsworthy and to stick.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:53)
So interesting because still, I think it still happens. It certainly used to be even more the case that even in like mainstream publications, women's beauty magazines and things, people would use the word exotic to describe the looks of people who were white. Right. And I think that's still. Yeah. So it's very interesting you point that out.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:06)
Mm-hmm. They still use it. They still use that word. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember being in high school.
I remember being in high school and we had a German exchange student. And there was a clash of cultures there, obviously, already because we're in the middle of nowhere Florida, like one stoplight town, dirt roads. Like, I tell people where it is and they've never even heard of it. And we have this German exchange student, right? And...
He and I became friends and I remember once he told me, was like, oh, you're so beautiful. Like you look really exotic. And I was in high school at the time. I was like, oh, you know, whatever. And so like, it was like a compliment. I still think he, to this day, I still think he meant it as a compliment. Like, I don't think he was like.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (24:48)
I
would say 90 % of people who are doing it aren't thinking the way you are thinking. That's not the point.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:52)
Yeah, right, right.
Yeah, that's what the point the point is that it's tied into this larger conversation of how black and brown bodies are treated as like these objects to be like admired and just like gazed upon.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:03)
Yes.
in the same way that people who don't understand that and other pieces of the history of looks and bodies and racism, again, I'm thinking of Sabrina Strings and Fearing the Black Body, because you might compliment people about them looking thin as if that's a compliment and not in any way in your mind drawing any lines of like, I think you look more white or like whatever, you're not thinking that. It is because it has become
Taina Brown she/hers (25:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:32)
the norm, has become the standard, right? And so you these are just things that you pick up and without inquisition, you don't understand where they're coming from. And you don't understand how it's contributing to the larger systemic issue, which again, is what I'm talking about with the roast in that sure, in a vacuum, if this were to exist in a vacuum, it would be a different story. But when you then take public, you know, put it out to a large audience, share clips with your millions of followers. It's no longer in a vacuum. It's existing inside of.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:34)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:01)
and contributing to these systemic issues.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:03)
Yeah, and it's not just a large audience, it's a global audience. Online culture is a global audience. It's not ⁓ just here in the US, no, it's fucking everywhere.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:07)
Exactly. mean, everything is now.
Yeah. So, okay, so the fact that one, this happens, it's on a global stage. It's playing into all sorts of stereotypes and issues that are thought patterns that contribute to upholding the systems as they are, right? Then we talk about the fact that when these stories come up, it tends to be centering Black experiences and or
sometimes other marginalized identities, right? Maybe sometimes it's a queer story that gets sort of that same level of anger because of the same, for the similar reason, I do find it tends to be very often when it's about black folks. Like people love to harp on Oprah now. And it's like, yeah, I think Oprah's terrible for a lot of reasons. And there are many more white men who are far worse that we could also be talking about. why do we, right? Why would we this? Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:02)
Because then the thread goes to what's happening at the same time as all of this is gerrymandering like we haven't seen since Jim Crow, right? Like this is, it is terrifying. Voting Rights Act, boy, my mouth isn't working today. The Voting Rights Act of, what is it, 65 has been stripped back to basically clear the way for states to behave as racially as racially.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:25)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:31)
as racist as they want to be as racist as they want to gerrymander the hell out of their districts to basically eradicate the black vote from existence to make it impossible for black folks to have representation of what they actually are wanting when they go to the ballot box. And it's happening. I Tennessee just literally changed themselves to an entirely red state. The only black district. And I say black, meaning it was Democrat. And in fact, it's been
Taina Brown she/hers (27:48)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:57)
led by a black or white woman before, but it was a majority black district that chose somebody who would represent their voice in Congress. That district has been taken away. And now there is nowhere in the state that has a majority black vote, despite what the population may look like in Memphis, particularly. South Carolina has done something similar. Texas did as much as they could. My state of Missouri just got rid of the black
Taina Brown she/hers (28:06)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:25)
Majority Black District in Kansas City. So now we have only one, I will say, with a tiny bit of pride. It's my district that I live in, but I now live in the only district left in the US that are in Missouri that is a Democrat led district. Hopefully will be represented by the amazing Cory Bush again. Let's get rid of Wesley Bell. It's happening all over the place. And I don't think that you can separate these things. It is not as if I would say,
Taina Brown she/hers (28:38)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:49)
The Kevin Hart roast and the way people are reacting to that roast is the reason that gerrymandering is happening. Of course not. But there's a thread between these things that is not invisible.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:55)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, there is, there is. There is because I think when you think about comedy, right, and just pop culture in general as a reflection, right, it's kind of got this symbiotic relationship with culture at large, right? It's both a reflection of
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:01)
I don't want to be the only one to speak on it, because I know that you probably have things to say.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:24)
how people feel and how they think, and it also influences how people feel and how they think. And so it's just this loop that just keeps going. It doesn't stay in the same place, it evolves outward. And so it's a circle that's moving in space and time. And so...
When we think about these jokes that are to us apparently very clearly racist and inappropriate, like inappropriate at best, racist at worst.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:51)
And in
my opinion, not funny. But go ahead.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:54)
Not funny, yeah.
When we think about that as a reflection of people's attitudes towards the livelihood of Black and brown people, like, then we can think, then we can say, okay, well, that's the general, if the general consensus to that kind of belief system is laughter.
then who's laughing at that? How many people are laughing at that? Where are they laughing at that? And what is the impact of that laughter, right? What is the impact of that blase attitude towards the lives of Black and Brown people? And so, and then that opens up conversations and more questions and answers about...
who those people are and where they are and the kind of power that they have to make decisions like redistricting, budgeting, educational policy, that's on a big scale. On a small scale, it's people who laugh at that, who make decisions about who gets promoted at work, who gets hired at
your job, who gets fired at your job when it's time for layoffs, right? Like that's on a very small scale. Like which child in the classroom gets attention versus which one doesn't, right? Which child in the classroom gets deemed, you know, being misbehaved versus someone who just needs a nap or just needs an apple, right? Like on a very, very small scale.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:23)
discipline or not.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:25)
Those are the decisions that people who laugh at jokes like that are making. On a big scale, it's redistricting, it's Supreme Court cases, it's who goes to war over what, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:36)
Yeah. And these moments are what are giving them that permission structure, right? That instruction, that feeling that it's okay, right? Because they're laughing about it, whatever. And I think it could be helpful too for people, like, let's flip it up. I want to flip it on its head real quickly too, to draw a comparison. So the Voting Rights Act of 65 is what's being stripped away. Around that time, not long after, so it was a time of deep...
Taina Brown she/hers (31:46)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:02)
turmoil and racial issues going on in the US. And what happened on TV then? Norman Lear, rest in peace, amazing old man, who was ahead of his time in so many ways, white man, had power. And how did he use that power? He created All in the Family. Now, is All the Family by Modern Sensibilities a perfect show around race? Absolutely not. But for its time, it-
Taina Brown she/hers (32:23)
For its time, it was
quite progressive.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:26)
Very, it used its platform and the power that it had to make the jokes at the expense of the people with power. Archie Bunker was representative, he was a caricature of racist old white people, right? And the jokes were made at his expense, not at the expense of the women or the white or the black folks. And when they were made at their expense, the jokes didn't, they would be like.
It didn't work, right? Because it was like just showcasing him as the problematic person and other people having to say, that's not okay. And that was permission structure at that time for people to begin to challenge others with power, to question the norms, to push back. And then from there, we had the spinoff, the Jeffersons, where people got to see a wealthy black family, seeing that as a normalized.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:17)
sort of experience this white, this black family living in a penthouse and again, challenging so many of the norms, but the jokes were never at the expense of those. They were of the people who were the minority or the marginalized person in the room. They were the expense of the people with the oppressor identity. And that was such an important part of beginning to change that narrative in the population of reducing the permission structure for the oppressive folks to show up that way.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:36)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:46)
Do we remember when shame started around racism where people actually started to be like, I can't just like be outwardly racist anymore. I want people to not be racist at all. Right? Like that's where we want to get. But the first.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:47)
Mm-hmm.
But at the very least, they should
be ashamed to do it in public.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:59)
Right? And what's happening now is we're seeing the flip side of that, where all that's being taken away and people are... I can't imagine 10 or even 20 years ago, honestly, that lynching joke being made and the reaction of the room being laughter. Because that was when we were still... there was still amongst white folks, shame or at least a knowledge that, ⁓ this isn't OK for me to do. What has changed?
Taina Brown she/hers (34:25)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:26)
Right? And I just think it's so important. can't just be so dismissive of these moments to say, it's a big deal. Get over yourself. When we see what's happening, Black people are losing rights. Like, the right to personhood is what's happening here.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think even beyond giving people in positions of power permission to do the things that they do, I think it's giving them permission to continue to do the things that they do, right? Like for them, it's a pulse check of where people in the larger like culture are like, ⁓ everyone's laughing at this, okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:54)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:02)
it's okay for me to continue down this path. It's okay for me to like continue to make really bad decisions about how the policies I'm into or who I hire or how I operate my classroom is going to affect the livelihood of Black and Brown people. Like, because they already feel like they can do this. Like they already have the power. So it's not about giving them permission to do it. It's about whether or not they feel like they can continue to do it with, with
however little or however much pushback they might be getting. And apparently they're not getting any, so, because everyone's laughing at it.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:37)
with how little apology, shame, reservation. You're right. Exactly. That's it. You're right. It's not permission because they don't need permission when you are the person in power. But it's how much, what's the fight going to be? Do I have to? And so now you see, people, people can't understand. I hear people like exasperated at the fact that, ⁓
Taina Brown she/hers (35:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. When you have power, you don't need permission. You just do what you want.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:59)
These people are just so unapologetic now. They're just unapologetically flaunting their racism and whatever. And I can't believe it. But these sorts of moments are things that continue to contribute to that. When we continue to center a Black woman and challenging her degree and whether she lied about it. Now, is that right or wrong? Right? No, it's not right to do that. But when we make that the story, we are, by association then,
slowly giving people that permission structure or that giving them the message that, yeah, just go ahead, keep on challenging black women about what they know, right? Keep on challenging black women and saying that they're not that smart, whatever, right? Versus all of the, I don't even know that Mel Robbins has, I'm sure she's not a PhD, probably doesn't even have a degree for all I know, you know? And she can just be sitting there and drifting all she wants and without that same kind of challenge. And what does that say, right? And certainly the likes of Tony Robbins and stuff. So I just,
Taina Brown she/hers (36:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:55)
Yeah, we can look at each of these things in isolation and say, it's not that big of a deal. But it is so disingenuous to do that because nothing exists in isolation. And you said that perfectly at the beginning, like this is all happening inside of the larger experience that we're all going through right now, where we are systematically and really unapologetically stripping people.
black people, most especially, of their voice, of their rights, of their representation. That matters an awful lot.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:23)
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (37:28)
I'm not going to mention all the other things that are also happening around like bodily autonomy. And so, mean, and again, when, Chelsea Handler, ha ha ha, yep, I'm a three, you wouldn't hit me. Like that is not that far of a stretch to get to why are we losing rights to choice, reproductive choice? You don't have reproductive choice in rape culture. Your body is just a vessel.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you don't.
It's not yours. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (37:51)
And so yeah, you can
say I'm uptight, I'm not fun at a party, I don't know how to laugh. I know how to laugh. I laugh at a lot of things, but I don't laugh at things that are like so clearly feeding into the loss of my rights and the rights of the people that I love.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:06)
Yeah, yeah, no laughing matter.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:09)
I mean, yeah, I do have a lot too. Like, Parks and Rec, there are so many shows, like, I don't even, there are so many shows and things that are funny because they speak to universal experiences, because they punch up, you know. There's lots of humor that doesn't even require punching, by the way. Like, it just speaks to the universal experience of being a human and like the frustrations of sitting in traffic or whatever that we all deal with. And like, okay, yeah, that's great. Let's laugh at that.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:13)
Yeah.
that are funny. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:37)
Do I sound like I'm no fun, Tyena?
Taina Brown she/hers (38:38)
Yeah. Yeah.
No, no, you don't.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:43)
Thank you. Anything else that you want to talk about or add before we say our goodbyes?
Taina Brown she/hers (38:44)
Don't.
No, I think this was a lot and I just, I know there are gonna be people who are just gonna take what they want from it. And to you I say, fuck you. But to everyone else who actually listened and paid attention, thank you for being here and for giving us time in your day.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (39:08)
Yeah, mean, that's ultimately, Taina, that's what I really hope this show does for people or that what I think is most interesting is when we can thread those needles for people in ways that maybe they hadn't thought about. So if somebody, you know, if anyone's listening to this and had seen some of the rhetoric around the roast last week and we're like, yeah, but why does it really matter? That's where I hope like this provides you just a little more depth of understanding and even a bit of ammunition so that when things like this come up again, you're able to.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (39:37)
question it and then fight back a little. Because that's what I think we just need those we need people pushing back so that we don't continue to free people from their shame.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:39)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And you don't have to be aggressive about it either. Just be like, I didn't think that was funny. Or what was funny about that?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (39:49)
Yeah, and you can say,
yeah. And then, I mean, if you really want to, can say why. yeah, what's funny about a joke? What's funny about a joke like that when Tennessee just got rid of the ability for black people to basically have a vote? Tell me how that's funny and see what people have to say. Okay. I know what they're gonna tell you.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:53)
Can you explain the joke to me here?
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, my favorite
thing is weaponized ignorance. I don't get it. Can you explain it to me, please? Make people uncomfortable. Make them say the part that part out loud.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (40:10)
yeah.
You
And especially
especially when you hold an oppressor or a privileged identity to be the person in the room that does that, especially when people in the room are holding the marginalized identity in question. And I'm speaking to all of us, but I can think many times where if only a white man would have done that in a room where I was and jokes about women, how the fist pump I would have had in my head. Like, so.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (40:41)
If that's you, know that it makes a difference, is meaningful to the people in their world. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll be back next week on the 26th, Tuesday the 26th, YouTube. Come join us for a live. We'll get it scheduled soon so you can find it and actually, hopefully by the time this is out, it'll be scheduled so you can just click remind. Come join us and talk with us and we're gonna have some fun reminiscing. So thanks for being here.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:45)
It does. Yeah.
for Usa to 26.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:05)
I was waiting for you to say.