The Power of Authentic Leadership

Margaret Brunson, a seasoned leader in mental and behavioral health, brings a fresh perspective on leadership and authenticity. With a background in social justice movements and government collaborations, Brunson is all about empowering communities through self-leadership and genuine transformation. Join us as she shares her insights on the importance of personal growth, courage, and accountability in leadership, challenging traditional power dynamics along the way. Learn how she navigates the balance between collective healing and individuality, all while emphasizing the vibrant art scene in North Carolina and the impact of authenticity in driving change. 

Are you ready to start the conversation? Eat, chat and act with Down Ballot Brunch.

Down Ballot Banter is hosted by Monèt Marshall and Quay Weston and is a production of Earfluence.

Creators & Guests

Host

Monet Marshall

Director. Playwright. Arts Consultant. Cultural Organizer.

What is Down Ballot Banter?

Welcome to Down Ballot Banter, the podcast that puts the spotlight on local elections and what local government actually means for you. Hosted by Monèt Marshall and Quay Weston.

00:00:04 - Monét Marshall
Hey, y'all. Welcome to Down Valor Banter, the podcast that puts a spotlight on local elections and what local government actually means for you. I'm Monét Noelle Marshall.

00:00:13 - Quay Weston
And I am Quay Weston.

00:00:14 - Monét Marshall
Yeah, you are.

00:00:15 - Quay Weston
Local elections are extremely important, and we're on a mission to learn together and to break down local politics in a way that makes sense to us and doesn't require us to be experts, because we are not. Hello.

00:00:27 - Monét Marshall
So whether you're a seasoned voter or this is your first opportunity, we've got the insights and information to keep you.

00:00:33 - Quay Weston
Informed and engaged, because when it comes to building new worlds, all of our inputs matter.

00:00:39 - Monét Marshall
Yes. So if you're ready to learn with us, let's go. My name is Monét, and we are back for another episode of Down Ballot Banter. And we are here today with the co hosts with the most, Brother Quay.

00:00:59 - Quay Weston
Brother Quay. Here I am. And I'm gonna read your bio just so I get it right.

00:01:06 - Margaret Brunson
Okay.

00:01:06 - Quay Weston
We are also here with the Dr. Margaret Brunson, which I'm very excited about this conversation and a little bit about Margaret. Margaret is a leader, luminary, and thought partner. She's also the founder of Illumen Leadership Solutions, which is a special focus or unique focus in authentic, holistic, and transformative leaders grounded in the core values of purpose and courage, and is designed to guide leaders to clarity of purpose as they navigate and manage organizations.

00:01:40 - Monét Marshall
In other words, Margaret will fix your life, period. Ask me how I know. Hey, Margaret.

00:01:47 - Margaret Brunson
Hey, y'all. It's good to see y'all.

00:01:49 - Monét Marshall
Glad to be here. It's so good. You know, we could have 14 different podcasts kicking in about 14 different things, but today we're here to talk about state and local politics, and I think some of the questions I know that we have are about leadership.

00:02:03 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

00:02:05 - Quay Weston
So I'll start.

00:02:06 - Margaret Brunson
Let's do it.

00:02:07 - Quay Weston
Any additions to the intro?

00:02:09 - Margaret Brunson
No, that's perfect.

00:02:10 - Quay Weston
Okay. Okay. So we always start with the general, like, what's your origin story? And, like, who are you as a human?

00:02:18 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah. Well, I always like to start sort of with. I mean, it certainly goes beyond or before my parents. It starts before my parents, but I generally like to shout out my parents because they are the children of sharecroppers. So both of my parents grew up in rural North Carolina and Robeson County. People say Robeson. That's how you know they're not from there. People from there say Robeson County. My parents are also like, you know, Jim, the product of Jim Crow. They grew up in Jim Crow. South. My dad was drafted to Vietnam, was in one of the first classes to integrate his high school. And I share that because that certainly shaped me and shaped how they raised me. And I always like to say to people, you know, my parents raised us. You know, you hear some people say, well, you have to be excellent in spite of your blackness. My parents were like, no, you are excellent because you are black. So I remember being in elementary school and my parents found this board game called In Search of youf Black Identity. Like, I don't know who made it, but I. They still have it. It's in their garage. It's in a yellow box.

00:03:39 - Quay Weston
In search of your black identity.

00:03:41 - Margaret Brunson
In search of your black identity. And they made us play that board game before we could play anything else.

00:03:47 - Quay Weston
Wow.

00:03:47 - Margaret Brunson
So you like, oh, you want to play Monopoly? You want to play Connect 4? No, you better play that. So that's who my par. That's a part of my origin. So there's. There's a deep knowing that, like, for me, blackness was not something to escape from. It was like, no, I am black and I'm excellent because of it. So. Grew up in Raleigh, North Carolina, for the most part. Moved to Fayetteville my last year of high school. Went from a predominantly white high school, Broughton High School, to a predominantly black, historically Black High School, E.E. smith, in Fayetteville. And it was the best thing ever. I always tell people the difference is at Broughton, we had hot sauce packets. At EE Smith, we had hot sauce bottles.

00:04:37 - Quay Weston
Hello.

00:04:38 - Margaret Brunson
On the table. A necessity.

00:04:41 - Quay Weston
I love it.

00:04:42 - Margaret Brunson
So, yeah, I come from that type of people. And I have an older brother who is married and they have three children. So I'm an auntie and. Yeah. What else you want to know about my origin?

00:04:58 - Monét Marshall
How did you find yourself, like, what is your early story around getting to supporting leaders? Yeah.

00:05:09 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah. That's interesting. So I'm letting my parents hear this. They're going to laugh. So when I was young, I was always like, I always found myself in leadership spaces. Even as a child. Like, people would call on me cause they knew I would do it. You know, are you trying to get volunteers? And no one wants to step up. It's like, margaret will do it.

00:05:31 - Monét Marshall
You were voluntold?

00:05:32 - Margaret Brunson
Yes. So I always found myself leading. And you know, at times people would say like, oh, she's a bossy little girl. You know, and then my mom, I was so grateful for her reframe. It's like, no, she's a leader. She's confident, you know, So I think when I Started working, and I was a very young leader. And I was thinking about this the other day, like, I've literally been working for 22 years, full time for 22 years, and I had never thought about that. But when I started working, I always found myself in leadership roles. And generally older people would say, oh, you just a baby. You know, they say that to try to minimize your gifts or, you know, place more emphasis on your age being kind of a barrier to you actually leading them or them submitting to your leadership or following your lead. And then I started watching leaders just really mess up. You know, I've had some not so great leaders and supervisors and managers, whatever you want to call it. I've had some really good managers throughout my career. But I just saw where leadership was always a place where, like, if you were a better leader, things would be better here. Like, sure, we can create processes and policies and all of that, but the fact that you don't know how to lead is the. Is the problem. And I started gleaning a lot of wisdom around, like, what is necessary in spaces as it relates to leadership. How do we lead? How do we lead? Well, and ultimately, I think it starts with, like, leading yourself well. And I always saw that as a gap. It's like people can't follow you because the way you lead yourself is not compelling, questionable. So, yeah, I would say that's probably, in a nutshell, like, the trajectory for me.

00:07:33 - Monét Marshall
Thank you.

00:07:34 - Margaret Brunson
You're welcome.

00:07:35 - Quay Weston
Yeah, I'm curious. We've asked this question to some other guests, too, but as a person who found themselves in leadership positions, and I think there's something about who you are that makes you more than able to do that. Well, I'm curious about, like, when we think about community and people who don't feel as willing to step up or step in to lead, what are your thoughts on how we might lovingly nudge people into that?

00:08:08 - Margaret Brunson
I love that because I think there's too many people that are too willing to step up and lead. Don't have to step back, Stephen. And need to step back. We say that in facilitation.

00:08:18 - Quay Weston
Step up and step up.

00:08:19 - Margaret Brunson
Step back. Some of y'all need to step back. I was actually thinking about this last week. When I was young and leading people, I never thought that I knew everything I needed to know. I never kept the. I never allowed the fact that I still had more to learn to keep me from stepping into leadership, because I don't equate leading with knowing it all. I don't equate being a leader with having all the answers. So I think part of what we need to do is make it more or less risky for people to, like, really make mistakes. And I think when we create environments that are focused on, like, learning and growth, then you start to minimize the fear factor of, well, what if I mess up? Because you totally shift the way you look at failure. Like, if you're in a space of learning and growth, then failure is inevitable because is it really failing? The fact that you did something, it didn't work out? Maybe there was another way you could. Could have done it. You learned something from that. You grew from that. So as a leader, those are the experiences that shape us. Those are the experiences that help us to lead well and to lead better. But we don't come into leadership with all that already. So then if we're not. If we're not allowing people the space to say, you know what? I don't know what I'm doing. And I hate when people say, oh, it seems like you have it all figured out. No, I don't. What I have figured out is that I don't have it all figured out.

00:09:53 - Monét Marshall
And I know how to be relational inside of that and, like, transparent and vulnerable so that I can actually grow. And I think what you're saying is reminding me of conversations we've had with DreamCaldwell with Wesley about political home. Right. And I think that for so many folks, it's so difficult to find spaces that are safe enough to learn inside of.

00:10:14 - Margaret Brunson
That's right.

00:10:14 - Monét Marshall
And I think we're both losing them. And unfortunately, I think on the right, they are really good at creating political homes for folks to train up so that they can be ready for leadership and then know that they can be supported.

00:10:28 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah.

00:10:29 - Quay Weston
For anyone.

00:10:30 - Monét Marshall
Right.

00:10:30 - Quay Weston
Literally anybody can walk into more conservative space and just say, yeah, just throw them out front.

00:10:39 - Monét Marshall
Right.

00:10:39 - Quay Weston
We'll prepare you.

00:10:40 - Monét Marshall
Right.

00:10:40 - Quay Weston
And do all these other things. And I'm very curious about that. So thanks for saying that.

00:10:45 - Margaret Brunson
That's. Yes, to that point, I think. And you know, we're talking about, like, politics, and I think that's one thing about being an elected official that we. We forget is that sometimes those people have been selected and chosen because they're not scared to step out. And regardless of what they're talking about, what they believe in, they ain't scared.

00:11:12 - Quay Weston
Right.

00:11:13 - Margaret Brunson
So part of the. Or they might be scared, but they do it anyway. And I think that's the courage, is what we have to continue to sharpen. Because those of us who are at least trying or at least doing the work of like, moving in the direction of liberation. You can't be afraid. Like, we can't. We have to be courageous in that work now. We don't have to step out there by ourselves. We need to have people and community and affirmation. You know, there's something really beautiful around community. Affirming that you're okay, you're ready and we got you. Versus like, oh, I'm a step out here by myself. I got it. Well, you about to see what it means when you step out here by yourself.

00:11:58 - Quay Weston
That's right.

00:11:58 - Monét Marshall
Yeah. I think I am feeling really challenged around that because I think we have gotten into a culture where if you make a mistake, you get thrown away.

00:12:11 - Margaret Brunson
Oh, yeah.

00:12:11 - Monét Marshall
And it's like, so then how do you trust that you can be wrong? Or how can you trust that you're like, hey, y'all, I know I'm about to make a decision that some of y'all not gonna agree with. But, like, do you trust me? And I think it feels like I've been watching the discourse at Mark Robinson, and even with all the stuff that's come out, people are still proud to stand behind him. And I watch some of the folks who I know I am more value aligned with and that other people actually are more value aligned with, but yet they are like, but they voted that one time about that one thing, and so we're throwing them away.

00:12:46 - Margaret Brunson
Yes.

00:12:46 - Monét Marshall
And I'm just like, how do we bridge the gap between, like, understanding that leadership or coalition building is not a. Does not require 100% alignment.

00:13:01 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah, that's making my heart beat fast. Because what I know deep within myself, and I hate to even acknowledge that I believe this, but I do, is that many people are very selfish, so they only care about what they care about. When you are engaged in anything related to the well being of communities, the well being of humanity, you can't only be concerned about what you care about. There has to be more of or a more expansive view of what it looks like to be in community and to be well together in community. So it means that just because I'll say, for example, I don't have children, so I could easily not care anything about children. Issues related to public schools versus private schools, I can say, that ain't none of my business. I don't have kids in school. Who cares? Or I could say, well, you know, I got a niece. I have a niece and nephew, so I should care because of them. But it shouldn't take that it should take me to say what is important for, like, the wellbeing of our communities. Like, for people to thrive and flourish in the present. Like, not, oh, all the things that we're building for the future. That's beautiful. And there is an opportunity for people to thrive and to flourish now. So to your point, Monét, I think I do want elected officials, though, to have at least people that they feel accountable to to say that, to say, yep, I'm about to make a decision that y'all are not gonna agree with. Now, here's why I'm doing that. There needs to be that continued, like, tension. If we're not willing to sit in that tension, then we just need to opt out of the process altogether. But we can't.

00:15:05 - Monét Marshall
Right.

00:15:05 - Margaret Brunson
Cause then what happens? What we do?

00:15:07 - Monét Marshall
Right. Then we just complaining on the Internet.

00:15:09 - Margaret Brunson
That's right. That's right. But, yeah, the canceling people and, like, throwing people away, that's highly problematic, in my opinion.

00:15:21 - Monét Marshall
Yeah. And I think it. And then I'm gonna pass it over to Quay for a question. And I think that it really dissuades people who actually be excellent leaders. The people that we most want to step forward. And I think particularly about, like, black women and women of color. I think about disabled folks. I think about trans folks and queer folks and folks with disabilities. Like, the folks that actually we need to be at the table most are also the ones that somehow are the most disposable.

00:15:47 - Margaret Brunson
That's right.

00:15:48 - Monét Marshall
And the ones who are not do not get the grace that they deserve. And I think when we see that. And also, this is about belonging, right?

00:15:59 - Margaret Brunson
Yes.

00:16:00 - Monét Marshall
In a deep way.

00:16:01 - Margaret Brunson
Right.

00:16:01 - Monét Marshall
So when we see that, you're like, well, I don't want to be thrown away, so I'm not even going to put myself out there. Because then I'm afraid that if I make one wrong move, then I am going to be, like, community less.

00:16:13 - Margaret Brunson
Yes.

00:16:14 - Monét Marshall
And it's like, how can we ever build something if one step in the wrong direction isn't like, oh, well, now you ain't got no people. Yeah.

00:16:25 - Quay Weston
Not cooking.

00:16:26 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah. That's good.

00:16:27 - Quay Weston
I just want to breathe. Yeah. And I relate to very, like, so much of what y'all said. Short version is black men build that I'm organizing with. Um, I've since. I feel a sense of that dread. And, like, I don't want to be responsible for a misstep or misdirection or, like, misguiding someone or making the wrong choice. And now everybody's up in arms about this one thing. So I definitely feel that and have been, you know, working with myself and practicing and talking to others about, like, how we get better, about struggling through those things and then, like, making space and having grace for each other. So I appreciate that.

00:17:11 - Margaret Brunson
Can I say something to that, though? Yeah. I think the practice is, like, being willing to tell on yourself. And I've said this to y'all both know Lisa. Like, I've said this to Lisa. I'm not afraid to tell on myself. I learned that young. As a leader, it's like, when you mess up, go ahead and tell people you messed up.

00:17:31 - Quay Weston
Yep.

00:17:32 - Margaret Brunson
Because the reality is it's going to.

00:17:33 - Monét Marshall
Come out either way.

00:17:34 - Margaret Brunson
And then the fact that you spent all of this time trying to hide it or fix it and not let. It's almost like when your kids, they break something and then they try to fix it and they make it worse instead of just coming to you and be like, I broke. I broke this.

00:17:49 - Quay Weston
Yep.

00:17:50 - Margaret Brunson
I messed this up. And that's a practice. We have to practice that. And then the more we all do it, I think that's the. That's where we are able to extend grace. Because if I'm telling on myself and you telling on yourself, and you're telling on yourself, then no one has the ability to be like, well, you don't belong here. Well, what makes you belong here? You messed up, too.

00:18:14 - Monét Marshall
And that's the thing. People be so messy. You know, they messy, but it's like, okay, nobody say nothing. That's a whole other. We see you, we see you, we see you.

00:18:25 - Quay Weston
Yeah.

00:18:25 - Monét Marshall
Also, if you gonna be messy on the Internet, don't use the same email address you to everything else. Mark Robinson, right? Mini soldier.

00:18:34 - Margaret Brunson
Like. Like, you literally can't do that and then be on here spewing all of these things that you're spewing.

00:18:40 - Quay Weston
Yeah.

00:18:41 - Monét Marshall
You can't.

00:18:42 - Margaret Brunson
Where are your people at?

00:18:44 - Monét Marshall
Honestly, Your barber. You ain't got no barber. Okay.

00:18:49 - Quay Weston
I'm like, you ain't got no cousins.

00:18:52 - Monét Marshall
I'm saying, if that were my cousin, I would have.

00:18:54 - Margaret Brunson
Ooh, somebody.

00:18:56 - Quay Weston
An auntie would have called or something. Like, now, Ma, what you got going on?

00:19:00 - Margaret Brunson
What's going on?

00:19:01 - Quay Weston
I see y'all here on the tv. What's going on?

00:19:03 - Margaret Brunson
You been on the Internet.

00:19:05 - Monét Marshall
Okay, okay.

00:19:06 - Quay Weston
Facts. Many things there. But I'm curious, particularly around, like, having community, having people that can support leaders and also, like, hold people accountable. And you've done work with some historic organizations.

00:19:23 - Monét Marshall
Yeah.

00:19:23 - Margaret Brunson
You have Ebenezer. Yes. Ebenezer.

00:19:27 - Quay Weston
Brothers out of Georgia, you've worked with Rainbow Push, og, Jesse Jackson's organizations. I'm curious about what you've learned about power and purpose, like, beyond elections through working with some of these types of organizations.

00:19:44 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah. So I feel like this is so layered. I want to go back a little bit. So before I started consulting full time, I worked. My career was in mental health, behavioral health, the public sector, mostly related to healthcare and mental health.

00:20:04 - Margaret Brunson
And I think that's where I began to learn how. That's where I began to see where change actually happens, like on these real visceral levels and even in going to school for public administration. And they teach you about, like, you know, what it means, like, what local government means and how it all works and mayor, council, and all of that, like, you know, structure. And you realize, like, oh, this really isn't where real substantive change happens. What I know is that most of the time, you know, power is relative. And most people think that power sits somewhere beyond them. And that is part of our problem with our current system, is that most people don't actually know that they are the ones who have the power.

00:21:09 - Margaret Brunson
And that's intentional. The system is built that way so that you don't ever think you have power to do anything or change anything, that you're always looking beyond yourself or outside of yourself. In my career, having done different things and having had to work with government, work around government, you know, work literally create workarounds for government and work with elected officials, it's like, oh, y'all are kind of like the sign off. The work is being done over here. So how do I get you to see this work as important and get you to sign off on it? Then that's when the psychology has to come in. How do I make you feel like you're more important than you are? You know, how do I show. How do I respect.

00:21:59 - Margaret Brunson
Show respect for your office in such a way that it's like you're gonna do what I want you to do. People have made whole careers around this. They're called lobbyists. They do all that massaging. So I'm saying all that to say in working with. In working, you know, in the career that I had at that time, and then also working with community organizations, I would say, like historic civil rights institutions, but also new, our current iteration of social justice organizations and movements.

00:22:33 - Margaret Brunson
The question is always like, how do we build power? And it's usually there is a difference in sort of how we do that. What are the methods that actually will work that are not just reform Versus like, okay, we're going to build power in this way and it's going to totally disrupt everything people know. So I don't know. I'm kind of answering your question in a roundabout way, but I think what I am learning, not necessarily what I've learned, but what I'm learning is that I think we need some language.

00:23:12 - Margaret Brunson
We need some shifts in our language. I don't particularly like the term community organizing. I think it's too soft. I don't think that that's what people are doing. I think people are building power and people are using that now. Right. People are base building. People are creating opportunities for folks to step into their power and to exercise their power and authority in spaces through, whether it's through direct action, whether it's through campaigns or education or advocacy or policy, however you feel about those things. Right. But those are power building tools, and it's not community organizing. It's deeper than that. And I think it's always been deeper than that for civil rights organizations. They built power the way they knew how then. And going back to risk, people were still measured in how much they did. Because it was your survival.

00:24:17 - Margaret Brunson
Right? It was for your survival. So last thing I'll say as an answer to this question, I think I am very interested in methodologies, actually naming, naming the work of especially black led organizing in these less descriptive ways, but in these, like, methodological ways. So what is, what is the, what is the.

00:24:53 - Monét Marshall
I have so many questions off that. Thank you, Margaret. I think so. One, how are you defining power in this moment? And then can you tell us, like, what are some of your, like, three favorite ways that individuals can activate their own power?

00:25:11 - Margaret Brunson
I see power as influence. I see it as this sort of. Well, a. Well, or a way of knowing that, like, things don't have to be this way. And I actually have some agency and some influence and some ability and some giftedness and some knowledge to shift things and not just allow things to sort of happen, but to also be a part of changing and shifting those things. Yeah. And I think it's. I think it's really about, like stepping into your authority, you know, seeing that you have authority even if it's only, even if it's over your own life. And I think that's where it starts. So to answer that part of the question, the three ways I think, you know, you have to actually step into authority in your own life. And I think sometimes it's easier to look beyond yourself than it is to look within yourself. So when we. Whenever I think about collective transformation, collective shifts, I think there's always a relationship between that and my individual shifts and my individual transformation and my individual liberation. Like, I think it's. I think we're all connected and interrelated and tied up in this thing together. And we also have our individual roles to, like, show up in spaces where we are doing our work, to heal individually, collectively, and then also stepping into our authority as individuals. So, for example, if I'm expecting the world to be so different, what are some micro ways I can begin to shift and change my own life? Where do I have that agency? And again, I think because of the ways our systems are so messed up, but they are also working the way they're supposed to, then it's easy for us to be like, well, the reason I can't do this is because of that. Okay, that's a reason. And then there's some things you could do to step into your power, to step into your authority. So that's one. That's one. That's probably like two. And then I think I do like the conversations that people are having around, like, finding political homes and finding spaces. You know, I have a. I have some interesting. I'll say relationships with groups, because I think sometimes, and I'm part of groups, but I'm also usually like that renegade group member that's like, yeah, I'm here, but I ain't like the rest. I'm not like the rest of. I'm not here for the same reasons y'all are. You know what I mean?

00:28:04 - Monét Marshall
Yeah.

00:28:04 - Margaret Brunson
Because I do think sometimes groups, because you want belonging, everybody begins to think the same. But I do think if we are building. If we want to build more power together and maybe step into our power more, then we do need to be less isolated in that work. So finding spaces and. And places to do that work, I think it's still really powerful because you're not out there by yourself.

00:28:32 - Monét Marshall
Yeah.

00:28:33 - Margaret Brunson
So I feel like that was mostly 3.

00:28:39 - Quay Weston
Is it a LEO thing to avoid groups or feel very unique in groups? I can't stand a group. I mean, I am a part of many groups.

00:28:48 - Margaret Brunson
That's the thing.

00:28:49 - Quay Weston
But there's something about groups. I'm like, I have to be in groups because otherwise all this healing and learning, vulnerability, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't matter if you're not in community or in collectives in which these things are being practiced. Right.

00:29:02 - Margaret Brunson
I mean, there probably is some Leo energy. Because, Leo, we won't get into that. But Leo energy is very like individual sun.

00:29:10 - Monét Marshall
I'm shining.

00:29:11 - Margaret Brunson
Yes, that's right. Look at me shining on you.

00:29:15 - Quay Weston
Yeah, yeah, that's good. And I do have a question around, like this particular electoral moment. What does it feel like we're missing in this moment? I have some thoughts around me too. Humanity, relationships, empathy, curiosity, imagination. Imagination.

00:29:40 - Margaret Brunson
I heard you talk about the crisis of imagination and I was sitting with that. Yeah, I think we're missing all of that, to be honest. I do think that we are in a crisis of imagination. And I also think that those of us who are not in a crisis of imagination, even people who are in elected office, their crisis is not imagination. Their crisis is fear. Around speaking what they see or what they want to see. Because of the. And we've kind of been talking about this too, is like the responsibility to say, this is what I see. This is what we could do. This is what could happen. This is what the possibility. These are the possibilities. And then, oh, I gotta make that happen. And if I don't make it happen, I'm a failure, I'm gonna get thrown away. So then it's like, well, I can't, I'm dreaming, but I can't say it out loud because then I'm gonna be accountable to make it happen. And the reality is our electoral system, it doesn't work for where we are. It honestly needs an overhaul. And I know there have been plenty of people, plenty of researchers, plenty of scholars, political science scholars, who even talk about like the ineffectiveness of a two party system. I agree with that. Because what if you didn't know anything about a candidate's party and you really just had to listen to what they're saying? Or if they're already in office, you could go and look at their voter record. That's public information to us. We don't look at it. Why? Because there's scripts. The Republicans have a script, the Democrats have a script. And as long as they stick to the script, then you can say, all right, I'm Democrat, there's my people, because they're speaking my language. But it's all scripted. Same with the Republicans. Right? So we know that, like, okay, if you're a Republican, you probably don't believe in big government unless. Right, unless you need it, unless it's there to help you get your business out of trouble. Right? You don't want taxes to increase because then you know the wealthy are going to have to pay taxes. If you're a Democrat, you know that. Sure. We need tax money because we want the government to pay for social welfare programs that actually wouldn't be needed if we had a better governmental system. So, like, it's just a mess. Your question is, you said, what do we need?

00:32:29 - Quay Weston
What are we. What are we missing?

00:32:31 - Margaret Brunson
What are we missing? Oof. Yeah. I think it's what we've always been missing is, like, systems and strategies that get us to a place of liberation. And the reality is not everybody wants.

00:32:48 - Monét Marshall
Liberation also, or our visions of liberation are very different.

00:32:52 - Margaret Brunson
Totally different. That's right. What liberation looks like to each of us is different, which is part of being a human. Like, you can want whatever you want. But that goes back to my point around, like, the selfishness. It's always about what I want versus, like, what's good for the whole. So honest. That might be a question I have to sit with, but I also need to say I'm always entering into these conversations with a lot of humility, because I don't have all the answers. I don't really have answers. I just have a lot of questions. And I also have lots of observations. It's like, if we continue to do the same stuff, nothing will change. So why are we so afraid to upend things? And we know why, right? I mean, we know it's life or death.

00:33:47 - Quay Weston
Honestly, that's a fact.

00:33:49 - Margaret Brunson
So.

00:33:50 - Monét Marshall
Okay. I want to do an experiment with you, Margaret. Okay. So I want you to imagine, no matter who wins this upcoming election, no matter who's the governor and who's in the Council of State, that you wanted to create an organization that, like, got more people interested, activated, participating, and then, like, running for office by 2028. Right. What sort of. Like, what. What would you create? Like, what sort of programming, what structures, like, what kind of, like, organizational body would you create to make that happen?

00:34:28 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah. Oh, this is good. I like this experiment.

00:34:31 - Quay Weston
That's fire.

00:34:33 - Margaret Brunson
Well, I think I would. I have to start by saying kind of, I operate from a transformative leadership frame, which essentially says whatever you hope to do outside of yourself, you have to be willing to do within yourself. Whatever you hope to change outside of you, you have to be willing to. For that to change you. So I think there will be some sort of focus on what does it look like to be a transformative leader? What does it mean for me to lead from a place of transformation, which means I have to be willing as a leader to be transformed. Quay, you've heard my chrysalis, my caterpillar, the butterfly metaphor. But I Think, you know, as the caterpillar shifts into a chrysalis, goes through all of that reorganization, dissolution of things it no longer needs, and then becomes a butterfly. The thing that I've been thinking about a lot lately, and that is that the environment didn't change for that caterpillar. The same environment that it came out of that.

00:35:46 - Monét Marshall
Yeah, yeah.

00:35:47 - Margaret Brunson
The same environment that it came out of the. Emerged from the chrysalis and became a butterfly is the same environment that it had when it was on the ground. As a caterpillar, the thing that shifted was them and their vantage point. So now they get to fly and flutter and see things from a different vantage point than what they were on the ground. So if I'm helping people to step into their leadership, in particular political leadership, one, I'm starting with the fact that this is not a career, and this is part of our issue is that elected official has become a career. It's not supposed to be that way. Like, you supposed to get in, do what you gotta do, get out, and then it's time for you to, like, help ushered in. So it's not a pathway for your personal and professional ambitions. It's a place. It's a home or a space for you to do the work you're supposed to be doing. You can't do that from the vantage point here on the ground. You gotta go through your own. Continue to go through your own sort of chrysalis or transformation moments so that you can emerge and see things from a different place. And then I think, you know, from there, it's the. What do you care about? What's important to you? What are you going to create a platform around? You know, what are the issues that you feel will help us get closer to a collective vision? You know, at least the through line that if we can find a through line. Of all the visions that we have for liberation, is there a through line? What do we need to get there at least? So that's just me kind of thinking out loud. But yeah, y'all are making me think, really think today.

00:37:44 - Monét Marshall
You know, we really trying to, like, move the brain cells around here at down ballot banter.

00:37:50 - Margaret Brunson
You're doing it.

00:37:52 - Quay Weston
Goodness. I'm stuck on the environment shifting thing.

00:37:57 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about that because we do focus a lot on environment, as we should. Right. We need to create the conditions for people to flourish. Because the reality is if you're a butterfly and you're still floating around and flitting around an environment that's toxic, you're not gonna live that long.

00:38:15 - Quay Weston
That's right.

00:38:15 - Margaret Brunson
So, yes, we do need to create the conditions for people to thrive. And at the same time, we can't wait for that.

00:38:24 - Quay Weston
We don't have time to wait.

00:38:25 - Margaret Brunson
We don't have time to wait.

00:38:27 - Monét Marshall
We do not.

00:38:27 - Quay Weston
We don't have time to wait.

00:38:29 - Margaret Brunson
And what are we. And who are we waiting for?

00:38:31 - Monét Marshall
Somebody to save us.

00:38:32 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah.

00:38:33 - Monét Marshall
We really are waiting for a charismatic.

00:38:35 - Quay Weston
Leader or do it for us.

00:38:36 - Monét Marshall
Right.

00:38:37 - Quay Weston
And it's like, we've witnessed this enough where one person emerges, arrives. You'll feel very excited about the person, follows the person lead, you know, goes to things and listens to their speeches. And then this person leaves or is killed or.

00:38:54 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah.

00:38:55 - Monét Marshall
Otherwise we find out that they're human.

00:38:58 - Margaret Brunson
That's.

00:38:58 - Quay Weston
And then start all over again.

00:39:00 - Monét Marshall
Right.

00:39:01 - Quay Weston
And wait. And that's.

00:39:03 - Margaret Brunson
And then. And then that diminishes what they've done because we found out they were human.

00:39:07 - Monét Marshall
Right.

00:39:08 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah, that. That. It. We. We do it a lot in our society, not just in politics, but in. I mean, celebrity. Think about the power of celebrity. Like, all of a sudden, you know everything because you're a celebrity.

00:39:22 - Quay Weston
Well, why are we asking you about anything? Right.

00:39:27 - Monét Marshall
And I do want to know what you think as a person. But your thoughts are not more valuable because you got more money in the bank or you got a hit record, you can catch a ball. Like, none of those things make what you had to say more valuable than the steel worker.

00:39:40 - Margaret Brunson
That's right.

00:39:40 - Monét Marshall
You know, and it makes me think about. Recently, I learned that, like, when, like, back, I think it. Don't quote me on the time, but, like, maybe like, 40s or so, the. This one big Hollywood executive, he wanted a pool in his backyard, so he needed to make more money. Meanwhile, the labor, like the actors and the tech folks, like, all those, they were working. They were fighting for better working conditions. So what he decided was, we're gonna have an awards show. And that's how the Oscars got started. It was actually a way to separate the worker class between the performers and the directors and the writers from the crew so that they feel like, oh, well, we're special because we get to put on these pretty dresses and we get, like, have a chance to get this award and we can stop looking at ourselves in relationship to workers. But actually, we are workers.

00:40:30 - Quay Weston
Absolutely. Workers.

00:40:32 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah. Yeah. And that even translates in lots of spaces, including political spaces, because people want recognition. They want awards for what they're doing. They wanna see themselves as separate and apart from the people. Like, no you are the people. You're supposed to be the people. You're a mouthpiece. You're a representative of the people. That's right. You are to stand up. This. And we've certainly gotten away from this. You are to stand up, and when you speak, there should be a Voltron of people behind you saying, that's exactly what we told you to say of Ultron. That's right. Like, not you up there, just saying whatever you want to say. Like, who? Who?

00:41:13 - Monét Marshall
We didn't ask whose man.

00:41:17 - Quay Weston
Yeah.

00:41:18 - Monét Marshall
No, for real. And I. And it reminds me of a poem by Destiny Hemphill called the Water Is the Water Water. And it's like. I think there's this idea of, like, rather I. It's interesting to me because I'm like, do y'all think y'all about to get a different planet? Y'all about to get a different water source? Is the air about to be different from y'all? Like, it's not. So if we don't fix it, even if you get 20, 30 more years, your grandkids might live a little longer. At the end of the day, we really are in this together. Mm.

00:41:54 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:56 - Monét Marshall
You know?

00:41:56 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah. And the reality is people think that. That wealth and money, you know, is the thing that's going to keep them, help them be exempt. It's not.

00:42:08 - Monét Marshall
It's not.

00:42:09 - Margaret Brunson
It's not.

00:42:10 - Monét Marshall
And I think this also kind of makes me think about the, like, money and electoral politics. And everyone's like, we need to get the money out of electoral politics. And I'm like, yeah. And if it's not money, it's gonna be something else.

00:42:23 - Margaret Brunson
It's. Right. It'll be a different currency.

00:42:25 - Quay Weston
Yep.

00:42:26 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah, that's right. It might not be the dollar, but it's gonna be something else, right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. That's the.

00:42:34 - Monét Marshall
I do think we need to get a lot of money out of the electoral policy.

00:42:37 - Margaret Brunson
I agree. I think the role of. The role of money in electoral politics is not ideal. Yeah, it's not.

00:42:46 - Monét Marshall
What do you look for in a leader? Whether that's an elected official or, like, a community, someone in the community, or a religious leader that excites you.

00:42:55 - Margaret Brunson
This is gonna sound very, like, cliche, but I think I have a radar for people that are, like, performing, and that is the thing that I struggle with with leaders. It's like, I don't see the genuine, authentic, substantive like you. And I will say, you know, when Clubhouse rolled out, I was in there real deep listening to conversations and stuff. And this Guy said something that stuck with me. He said, we always talk about how we want authenticity. He said, but you can be authentic and not a person of substance.

00:43:33 - Quay Weston
Yep.

00:43:34 - Margaret Brunson
And I think, you know, you can keep it real, but you don't have any substance. There's no depth. And I get excited about leaders who want to both be authentic and people of substance. Like, people who are willing to tell on themselves, people who are willing to show up authentically in whatever space they're in. People who are not, like, acquiescing to whiteness or acquiescing to, like, you know, what is expected of them versus, like, no, I'm a show up and be myself. I'm not going to perform. That excites me because I think too many people who are leaders, I'll say especially black leaders, because those are the leaders I love more, you know, more so than. They're closer. Closest in my heart, I'll say, is black leaders, because it takes a lot of courage to lead as a black person in this country. But I'm also like, you don't have to perform.

00:44:30 - Monét Marshall
Right?

00:44:31 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah. So those are the things I see in leaders that excite me. The ones that are really bold and courageous enough to just be who they are.

00:44:44 - Monét Marshall
Can I ask you to do something? Can I? So I would like for you to, like, think of a person who maybe, like, they feel the urge, the desire, the. The spark.

00:44:55 - Margaret Brunson
They.

00:44:55 - Monét Marshall
They have an idea. They want to lead, they want to step forward, but they're afraid. I would really love, like, for you to give them a message, like, what would you say to that person?

00:45:06 - Margaret Brunson
A word. Hmm. So I think there's a difference between sort of pressure and urgency. And I think that we are in a moment where if you are sensing an urgency around something, it is. You're supposed to be doing that it is. It is time to move and you're not alone. That there isn't pressure to. That you don't have to succumb to the pressure of feeling like, I have to have it all figured out, but that there is a sense of urgency that's going to, like, fuel and drive you to move, and that there are people who are sensing that same urgency that are moving and they will be moving with you. So there's a. There's a peace around stepping out and being courageous when you know that you're not having to do it by yourself, that you will find your people. You will find the people that are going to lead alongside you and walk with you. But you got to move like you have to move, because it's not going to. You're not going to find those people until you do. So it's almost like you're going to start feeling the pressure if you don't step into this urgent moment of leadership. And I also say, be kind to yourself. You will figure it out along the way.

00:46:29 - Monét Marshall
Thanks, Margaret. Maybe I just needed that for myself. I'm just gonna watch it. This is my morning talking to me. This is my morning Message from Dr. Margaret A. Brunson. Okay, so this is our last big question. And then we do like, a quick hot, hot take.

00:46:44 - Quay Weston
Love it.

00:46:45 - Monét Marshall
Okay. What are you dreaming for North Carolina?

00:46:51 - Margaret Brunson
Some of y'all don't need to move here. We full.

00:46:54 - Monét Marshall
We full.

00:46:55 - Margaret Brunson
The triangle is full.

00:46:57 - Monét Marshall
There's no room at the end.

00:47:00 - Margaret Brunson
No. To that point, I think there's been a lot of. A lot of resources pushed into, like, the urban centers of our state. And I still very much see, like, a need in rural communities. Not that there's like, oh, we need to develop rural communities. No, we need to invest resources in rural communities because people still live in rural North Carolina. So even things like broadband, people don't have access to the Internet. Imagine, you know, what your life. How your life might shift if you have access to those things. So I think, you know, those are kind of means to an end or a means to a vision. But I think to see North Carolina as a whole for us to. To still. For many of us to still see North Carolina as a whole and not just. When we say North Carolina, we mean Raleigh, Durham, Charlotte, you know, a little bit of Wilmington. A little bit of Wilmington. Right. But it's like, no, this whole entire state deserves. People in this whole entire state deserve. Deserve good things, you know, and to live well and to live the lives that they want to live.

00:48:20 - Monét Marshall
Right.

00:48:21 - Margaret Brunson
And that's what. That's always my dream for, not just North Carolina, but people in general is to, like, be able to live the life you want to live. That's what it's about for me. You know, I don't want any obstacles or barriers for me living the life that I want to live. So that I guess simplistically or simply, that's my dream for North Carolina. Yeah.

00:48:43 - Quay Weston
Thank you.

00:48:43 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah.

00:48:44 - Quay Weston
Love it. Okay. To close us out with our quick round, just answer as you would like, okay, Pepsi or Cheer Wine?

00:48:53 - Margaret Brunson
Cheer Wine.

00:48:54 - Quay Weston
Dang.

00:48:55 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah. Cheer Wine. Pepsi is okay. I haven't gotten Cheer Wine. Sometimes Pepsi don't hit, like, you know.

00:49:05 - Quay Weston
It don't Cheer Wine hits.

00:49:06 - Margaret Brunson
Oh, yes.

00:49:07 - Monét Marshall
A really Good cold glass of cheer wine.

00:49:10 - Margaret Brunson
And don't let it be in a glass bottle.

00:49:12 - Monét Marshall
Come on.

00:49:13 - Quay Weston
Okay. All right. These are your questions, not mine right now.

00:49:17 - Monét Marshall
All right. Yes.

00:49:18 - Quay Weston
Bojangles are cookout.

00:49:19 - Margaret Brunson
Bojangles, period. Yeah. Bojangles seasoned fries.

00:49:23 - Quay Weston
Hello.

00:49:24 - Margaret Brunson
I do need to say this about Bojangles.

00:49:26 - Quay Weston
About the seasoning?

00:49:27 - Margaret Brunson
No, about biscuits. I actually. I'm saying this on camera.

00:49:34 - Quay Weston
This is on the right side.

00:49:35 - Margaret Brunson
I actually don't like biscuits.

00:49:37 - Monét Marshall
What?

00:49:38 - Margaret Brunson
Yep. I only like. And I have come to.

00:49:44 - Monét Marshall
I am plummets.

00:49:45 - Margaret Brunson
I have come to accept this about myself because I've tried to force myself to like biscuits. However, I like Bojangles biscuits. And they have to be dark brown.

00:49:55 - Quay Weston
And you can especially request one.

00:49:57 - Margaret Brunson
Always order a dark brown biscuit. And then if it's too light, I pull the middle out. Cause I don't like that dough in the middle.

00:50:04 - Quay Weston
Oh, okay.

00:50:05 - Margaret Brunson
That's why I don't like biscuits.

00:50:06 - Quay Weston
Wow.

00:50:07 - Margaret Brunson
Too much bread in the middle.

00:50:08 - Monét Marshall
That's the best part.

00:50:09 - Margaret Brunson
Wow. Ugh. Sorry.

00:50:11 - Quay Weston
Wow.

00:50:12 - Margaret Brunson
Biscuit to dough.

00:50:14 - Quay Weston
I've never met a person that. I mean, you know yourself.

00:50:18 - Monét Marshall
I'm gossamer.

00:50:19 - Quay Weston
That's the.

00:50:19 - Monét Marshall
That's the Amber guest.

00:50:20 - Margaret Brunson
I think I'm just willing to admit it. That's a buttery biscuit. Ok, but do you like the whole biscuit?

00:50:27 - Monét Marshall
Yes.

00:50:28 - Quay Weston
Ok. Every single part.

00:50:29 - Margaret Brunson
A buttery biscuit. I love the top of it. If it's cooked.

00:50:33 - Quay Weston
Not.

00:50:34 - Margaret Brunson
But that middle. Ooh.

00:50:38 - Quay Weston
Okay. Sweeter or sweet?

00:50:40 - Margaret Brunson
Sweet.

00:50:41 - Quay Weston
Okay.

00:50:42 - Margaret Brunson
If I'm gonna drink sweet tea, I'm a drink sweet tea.

00:50:45 - Quay Weston
I feel like I know your answer to this one will be me too, Unc. Or do.

00:50:49 - Margaret Brunson
Come on.

00:50:50 - Quay Weston
No need, Unc.

00:50:52 - Margaret Brunson
Unc. I'm an alum. Hello, Unc.

00:50:57 - Quay Weston
Studied. Educated. Favorite North Carolina artist.

00:51:01 - Margaret Brunson
Oh, man.

00:51:02 - Quay Weston
Any medium.

00:51:03 - Monét Marshall
Any medium. Living or deceased, man.

00:51:08 - Margaret Brunson
Favorite. I always struggle with favorite. I mean, when I think artists, the first thing I think is music, because that's the art form. That is just like always with me. So, man, I mean, I probably have like a top five, like Nina Simone. People don't know George Clinton is from North Carolina.

00:51:28 - Quay Weston
Is he?

00:51:28 - Margaret Brunson
I didn't know that.

00:51:30 - Quay Weston
Whoa. I loved him.

00:51:32 - Margaret Brunson
John coltrane, J. Cole, 9th wonder. But then I love our, like, local arts. I mean, Monét is one of my favorite artists. Kandi Carver. Gotta give her a shout out. One of my favorite artists.

00:51:49 - Quay Weston
That's right.

00:51:50 - Margaret Brunson
Derrick Beasley, one of my favorite artists. So, yeah, I have a lot. But I think music first.

00:51:57 - Monét Marshall
That's a great list.

00:51:59 - Margaret Brunson
Yeah.

00:51:59 - Monét Marshall
Yeah. We need a North Carolina musicians playlist.

00:52:03 - Quay Weston
Maybe I'll make that for our that.

00:52:05 - Margaret Brunson
Would be dope pre-post-election because.

00:52:07 - Monét Marshall
We gonna need some Margaret, we are so grateful that I spent this time with you today. It's never enough time. Yeah, I'm just grateful.

00:52:17 - Margaret Brunson
Me too. Me too. I'm grateful for the ask. I don't really get a chance to to talk about some of these things sometimes. So I appreciate, I appreciate the space.

00:52:26 - Monét Marshall
Ah, anytime. And y'all, that's what we got for today. Thanks for tuning in to Down Ballot Banter. We hope y'all enjoy diving into the tentacular world of local politics with us.

00:52:43 - Quay Weston
Yeah, and don't forget this podcast is an extension of Monét's beautiful dream, the Down Ballot Brunch, where there are three simple steps is to eat, have a conversation and to act.

00:52:55 - Monét Marshall
That's right, have a conversation using this podcast episode, the Down Ballot Brunch chat guide, or your own prompts. Write a note to an elected official on a Down Ballot Brunch postcard. Share quotes from your convo on social media with consent, of course. Or text three friends about their voting plans and find out what matters to them.

00:53:15 - Quay Weston
And if you're watching on YouTube, be sure to like, share, subscribe. If you're listening on other platforms, be sure to rate and review. Share it with your people.

00:53:24 - Monét Marshall
Until next time, stay informed, stay engaged, and keep up with the Down Ballot Banter.