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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Looking Yourself In The Eye: Choosing Authenticity Over Approval: Part 1
00:00
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Restorative Man podcast. My name is Jesse French and I am joined by my co-host today who is... Cody Buriff. Cody, good to see you, man. It's good to see you guys. And be together here for another conversation. And I'm excited because today we get to be joined by one of our good friends, a guy named Justin Morgan, who just over the years has just become a...
00:25
a dear friend of us and Restoration Project and a trusted man. And so Justin, thanks for taking some time and joining us here in this conversation. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Excited to be with you guys today. Absolutely. Justin, I'd love to just tee you up and say, like introduce yourself to the listeners. Who are you? Where do you find yourself today? Give us a little snapshot into who you are. And then I'm also going to ask that you answer one of Cody Buriff’s favorite questions of all time.
00:53
that I absolutely love. And the question is, after your kind of intro, the question is, what do you do for fun? So you have to answer that. Cause that's pretty special. Okay. I like the, what do you do for fun? That's still your question, Cody. That feels like I kind of pulled it off. Whatever gets me. I think that's such a good question because that's the one when you're in a group of people and everyone asks, what do you do? And instead you ask, what do you do for fun? You get the stare. The eyes go wide open.
01:21
Or they go blank and people go, what do you mean for fun? And I think that's the essence of a person though, because it cuts through the whole like, I wanna measure up or I wanna kinda know who's got the better job, fill in the blank. But to know what someone does for fun, I feel like you could actually get to know the person. So I love that question. Why don't I start with what do you do for fun? I'm gonna just jump right into that one. That's right. Yeah. So I love spending time with my daughters. I am a single dad with two amazing daughters.
01:49
Sage and Juniper, they're six and nine years old. They're amazing girls and they just teach me so much. I always thought I was gonna be a dad with sons, especially around you guys. I was starting to read Man Maker Project and fired up and I was like, man, I know I had a brother growing up. So we would shoot BB guns and blow up ant hills and ride bikes off sweet jumps, you know, doing all that stuff. And then I have these two incredible daughters that came into my life and I had no idea how the heck to be a dad to daughters.
02:18
didn't have sisters, didn't have any experience. And what I found is it's probably been the most rewarding and good thing in my life that I've ever had. Like just opening up a piece of me that I just didn't know it was there. And the good thing is they love riding bikes off sweet jumps, they love rock climbing, but they also love deep conversations and they love bringing out their creative and artistic side. And I think for me, it's like really challenged me in those ways of exploring a side of me that I shut down, a side of me that I've...
02:46
I once was creative when I was a little kid and then someone made a comment. I was like, well, that's the last time I'm doing a painting like that. And they're always inviting me to do that. And they actually asked me like, dad, what do you like to do for fun? And I think the thing about that question is I, I like lost my identity for years because I became a dad. And so when they asked me, because we were talking about what they love to do and they said, dad, what do you like? And I said, I like, you know, driving you guys around in the kids' cart behind the bike and I like, you know, hanging out. And they're like, yeah, but don't.
03:15
Do you have like hobbies or do you like to do? And this was a few years ago and I was, it was like really hard to actually say I don't really have anything I like to do for fun anymore. And I kind of saw the look of like confusion because they saw a man that probably once had things that he liked to do for fun, but kind of got lost in the adulting.
03:37
And so I think the past couple of years, I've been trying to challenge myself to do things for fun, to show them that when you grow up, you can still do things. Adults still should have things for fun because if we don't, we kind of lose ourself. Yeah. We don't want to be the adult that just works to live and lives to work kind of thing with a lot of us kind of fall in that trap, at least I have for years. And so I think for fun, like on the days that I have them, we love going climbing. So we go to the rock climbing collective in Longmont.
04:05
We love the music. I gotta like interrupt you. Yeah. That's so awesome. And they don't have a fear of heights. They're just amazed by it. Their dad has a fear of heights. Yeah, they do. That's what I'm saying. You have one too? Oh my gosh, I'm the worst. I hate him. Yeah. All right, so we gotta change that, Jesse. You need to come clobby with us. Cause once you go 75 feet up, you just have to let go and trust the process. But I get that. So I had a...
04:31
I had to pretend for a long time that I didn't have a fear because I didn't want them to like take on my fear heights. So I'd have to be like, everything's great. And inside my hands are just sweating profusely on these holds and like, Dad, it's your turn. I'm like, Dad's back hurts. Oh yeah, it's been really good though. So we like to rock climb. We like to hike. We like to do disc golf. We're just getting into that. We like to create. And on my own time, I love riding e-bikes and I love working on an old Jeep. I think.
04:59
As a dad, I've always, I had a motorcycle when I first got married and I sold it. And I realized that the world has changed as far as motorcycles go with people on phones and people not seeing other people on the road. So I found that a Jeep with everything taken off of it feels like a motorcycle with a bigger footprint and people can't run you off the road as easy. So that's kind of been my happy medium of trying to fix up a Jeep. And I think Cody inspired me when he showed his Jeep. I was like, ah, man, I love that meaningful project. So.
05:28
That's awesome. That's what I've been doing for fun these days. Cody, you inspired me, brother. You got a way cooler conversation we're going to have sometime. We got to, we got to, I want to hear more about this. Well, that's awesome. Justin, thanks for, yeah, just that little snippet into, into you and to your daughters. And yeah, just a little window into what does make you come alive in some ways. So I love that you started there when you're not with your daughters, grabbing library books or at the rock climbing gym.
05:56
Like what else occupies your day? Give us a little bit more of a frame. Yeah, for what your life holds. Yeah, thank you. It's weird to have two lives, honestly, to think about that. Like I feel like I'm really dialed in as a dad and I feel like I'm on purpose when I'm a dad and then I have 50% of the time I'm not a dad. And then I'm like, what the hell am I doing with my life? In a good way, in a very good like exploratory way. So on those days,
06:20
you'll find me doing real estate. So I left, I used to work at a faith-based nonprofit for a long time and then thought about just needing to make a financial future for my daughters and couldn't figure out how to do that in the nonprofit world. And so I ended up leaving that to go help people buy, sell and invest in the homes. Just knowing that when we bought our first home, it was the first time in my life that I didn't have to bounce back and forth. Like I remember every year wondering like how much is the rent gonna go up?
06:47
And if it goes up too much, where are we going to land? And that was kind of my whole story growing up too, of like my mom trying to negotiate with the property management company, like not to raise the rent or else we'd have to move again to an apartment. And so I kind of just found a deep calling of knowing like my family changed when we bought a house and we actually got a chance to like make a story in one place. And so that's kind of why I found a passion there. And I just love seeing the same thing happen with people and also just trying to help them navigate pitfalls. Cause we all know like.
07:16
Buying a house is the most important financial decision. If it goes wrong, it could go really wrong. And if it goes right, it could go really right. And the hope is it always goes really right, especially with due diligence and protection and just having all the information you need. So I do that. And then I also just help small businesses grow through Storybrand and Business Made Simple coaching, just in a way knowing like I struggled having a small business years after leaving the nonprofit. And I had some really good people come alongside of me that gave me some simple tools.
07:45
to tell a better story and to not waste money on marketing. It didn't work, but waste money on disc golf and stuff like that instead. Fun stuff, not marketing dollars gone wrong. And so I love doing that. That's kind of my side project, knowing that small businesses just are near and dear to my heart too, and that everybody deserves to have the tools they need to grow their business. So you'll find me doing that. And then, yeah, on the good days riding the Jeep. Like I'm the guy, I'm so excited about the Jeep. I'm like doing it in winter. Everyone's looking, I have gloves on.
08:14
Cause there's no doors, there's no top. It is ridiculous, but I just love doing it. And I don't have doors in the top for it. So it's like, if it's going to go out, it's going to go out the way I need. So I'm like the guy with the hat on and everyone's looking at me and I'm just having a blast. So, you know, just discovering who I am. And also like different seasons of life. So it's been, it's been a good journey, an uncomfortable journey, a discovery, loss, joy, happy, sad, scared, angry, tender, gratitude. You throw it all in there.
08:44
It's kind of what do they call that when you're a little kid and you go up to the soda fountain and you just kind of go like 10% every soda and then you get what you get at the end. Oh, this is a good question. Remember that there's like eight sodas you could choose from and you just kind of go up and you go Coke, Mountain Dew, Sprite, Dr. Pepper, and then you just have this conglomeration. Yeah, like a conglomeration of something that you don't know if it's going to be amazing or just terrible. I don't know, Cody, do you remember this? I feel like it can't
09:12
Sometimes that was called a suicide where you just like mixed them all. But I don't know if it had like a different name. Yeah. Something that it's like the unknown. You just, you go for it and it could be amazing depending on the mixture. Like if you go too much Coke or too much Dr. Pepper, it could destroy your world or it could be the greatest invention that's ever been made up with sodas. So it's kind of one of those things was just all the above exploring kind of the awareness curiosity, kindness in the midst of movement.
09:42
Love it. Well, I'd love to surface in that like idea, the three of us and to kind of highlight it. I just want to start with like one of the great icebreaker questions of all time. What is the moment where you were embarrassed? And it's like one of these great questions, right? That people can choose like, how deep they want to go. It could be like, super intense or hilarious. And I think I, if I remember right, like, Cody, I'm gonna just hot seat you and say like,
10:10
Take it away. I think you have something you'd be willing to share. Yeah, yeah. I'll share my story real quick. So what how probably like 16 years old, maybe 15 years old, downtown Washington, D.C. for a youth conference. We're walking down the middle of the street. And this is back in the, I don't know, turn of the century. So we'll say like year 2002 or something, whatever. And that back then there were these things called snap pants.
10:39
Do you guys remember snap pants? Paraways. Yes. Paraways, yes. Are they like the empty hammer, the parachute pants? Is that what we're talking about? They had the snaps that went all the way up the sides and so like a basketball team would have them on. Oh yeah. So if you're like Michael Jordan, you just snap them off and you just go for it? You just rip them off and the shorts are underneath. Yeah, right. So I'm wearing snap pants and it's super windy. And one of the guys in the youth group like comes up and like...
11:08
rips the pants, like grabs the pants and pulls on him, yanks on him. And I'm not wearing shorts underneath. I'm wearing box red hot boxers or something like that. And and my pants go flying. They go airborne and fly like 20 feet away and start just kind of blowing away. And I'm in the middle of the street in the middle of Washington, D.C. with all of my youth group guys, girls, everybody, all these other youth groups.
11:37
My pants are flying away and I'm in my boxers. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, oh my gosh. Yes. So that was terrifyingly embarrassing. OK. Like I have to ask not to like put salt in the wound, but like no short like why was there no shorts like I probably needed. I mean, I didn't anticipate taking my pants off. Fair. That was not part of my day.
12:08
make sense. Yeah. Gosh, dude, I'm sorry. That's a dumb story. I'm dying laughing because in sixth grade was when it felt like for me, those takeaways became super popular. And so as like your story indicates, my group of friends would just, you know, rip people's pants off all the time.
12:31
And I can remember my sixth grade teacher, Miss Misak being like, if you guys don't get your act together, we're the band, these tear away pants. And all of our friends were just like, oh, my gosh, please. No, you're so like the coolest. That's a no. Oh, that's a good one. We wanted to start there. Thanks, Cody, for just willing to open your soul in that way. And I'm sorry. I hope you can wear some tearways at some point again. They should bring it. They should have a comeback. Probably not. OK.
13:00
We want to just start there just because I'd love to, to begin a conversation, the three of us just around this idea of how we're perceived and kind of this idea of image and obviously like, you know, your story that you just shared, Cody, right? We chuckle at it and it's funny, but right. Any most stories where there's a degree of embarrassment, right? Like brings that to the floor of like, Hey, our perception is we feel like that's being seen negatively.
13:29
I just think I'm looking forward to this because at least for me as hopefully a semi-functioning adult this idea of image and perceptions of other people, if I'm honest, like I haven't outgrown that. That has not just magically disappeared when I graduated high school or left middle school. Like there is a deep awareness of how I am perceived and what that's like. And so maybe I just ask you guys like, how does this notion of how others perceive you, your image?
13:58
How does that strike you? How does that intersect your day as a dad, as a worker, as a man, all of those things? How are you image conscious might be a way to ask that. I might even jump in and just say it like I know as Jesse and I, as we've talked about it, like, you know, if you know anything about the Enneagram, Jesse and I believe that we're Enneagram threes, which are particularly image conscious, apparently. That's what we've read. And Justin, I know like you do a lot of marketing and marketing is all about.
14:27
managing image, whether it's your personal image or the like business image or whatever. That's something that you've consulted me on a little bit and we've talked about some. I would think that you have some unique perspectives and ways that that has intersected your life and your work and your own self. Yeah, thank you. I was actually, it's funny that you mentioned the like the tear away pants. I think my, in Jesse, when you talked about sixth grade,
14:56
my image idea really started in sixth grade. And for me, when I was younger and I had to do my doctor visits, they would have this chart on the wall. And I remember feeling scared every time we went in there because back in the eighties, they had like this poster saying, hey, this is, if you're like a boy that's this age, you should be at like this height, this weight. And they would just kind of point to it. And I remember they would always say, well, you know, when you're nine, you're supposed to be here, but you're way down. You're like,
15:26
You're small for your size. You're not at the average, which I've always hated. Every year I just felt really self-conscious for the doctors to say, you know, he's not up to speed. Like he's shorter and he's physically smaller than most people. So I started just dreading that and I tried to do whatever it takes to kind of skip that part of like the physical or like mom comes in. And so but sixth grade happened and I used to love like the way I figured out how to hide was to wear bigger clothes.
15:55
And I was a huge Nirvana guy back in the day. So we're talking like late eighties, early nineties. So I had this Kurt Cobain shirt. I loved wearing Nirvana and I would wear, I'd go to the thrift shop and I'd buy like a long sleeve shirt. And so I should have been wearing a small and we're talking like at least large. And for pants, I would wear like 32 inch, like skateboarder when I was probably like a size 26 waist had the big belt that hung down, but I was like, kind of like the skater punk rock kid.
16:22
And I found I could hide when I wore bigger clothes, like no one knew that there was like a small framed person underneath there. And in sixth grade, I couldn't escape this because we were having our sixth grade celebration at the rec center and it was a swim day. And so I thought what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna wear the trunks and then I'm gonna wear the like Nirvana shirt on me while I'm swimming. And so I showed up, I was the only kid trying to swim in this giant t-shirt.
16:50
And I was wearing it all day and I finally went to the snack area. So we had this area in the thing where you can go get like all the candy from the vending machine. And so my friends and I were over there and I was like, you know what? Everyone's like, why are you wearing a t-shirt, dude? This is weird. Like we're all swimming in your, it's an indoor pool too. So it's not like I could do like, Oh, I'm trying to avoid getting sunburned. Right. Yeah. So I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to go for this. I'm just going to take the shirt off. I'm going to be who I am. It's going to be fine. I mean, sixth grade, we're almost to summer.
17:18
So I take my shirt off, I hold onto it while I'm looking at the snack machine with my friends. And then I see this group of girls walking up and there's a girl named Jackie that I just thought was amazing. I mean I was like over the moon for Jackie. She was like the cream of the crop in the whole class. Everyone loved Jackie. And I had this massive crush on Jackie. She didn't know that. And I'm standing there and I see Jackie coming over to the...
17:43
the machine and I'm with my buddies and my shirts off and finally I'm like, man, I feel kind of confident. Like Jackie's coming up and maybe I'm going to like say something like, hey, hope you have a great summer. I had planned it in my head. So Jackie walks up next to me and then she starts whispering to her friends and they start laughing and I'm like, oh man, maybe I said something super funny. They totally are digging me right now. This is going to be a great summer. Like I'm grown. I don't need to hide under a shirt anymore. Like this is just good.
18:11
And I look over and I finally get enough confidence, like why Jackie's kind of laughing with her friends and I say, Hey Jackie, like how's the day? I just said something really stupid, like how's the day going for you? Big gulps, hey whelp, see you later kind of thing. And I remember she looked at me and she started laughing and I said, what's so funny? And she said, I had no idea that you were so tiny. Cause I had my shirt off and all of a sudden like my heart just drops and then she starts laughing.
18:41
I mean, we're just kids. I get it. But part of me was like, I never again, right, want to be known as the guy that's fully seen because that just was a deep wound to take on like to have someone that I just admired. And it was like an innocent thing that she said. But for me, I was just trying to come in my confidence. And I kind of made an agreement of like, I never want that to happen again. Totally. Wow. And that's what started the journey of just being afraid of
19:11
Like, I really don't want people to see me for who I am. Because if I have to face rejection like that, I just don't know if I could do it, you know? Yeah. And as a sixth grader, like I just, after that it was like punk rock t-shirts. I mean, I was, I had it dialed in like undershirt, long sleeve shirt, jacket. And then I went to the flannel stage because you know, Neil Young and Kurt Cobain, I said like three flannels on the hide and holes in the jeans that were too big. But it was looking back, I just wish I could go back and be like, hey Justin, you're gonna be okay, buddy. Like.
19:40
You have what it takes. You could wear shirts that fit. Even if you are smaller than average person, you're a good kid. And I think sometimes I need to remind myself that as an adult. And I think when we look at, you know, Cody, we've talked about even the marketing stuff. I think a lot of us, we feel that kind of fear. So we have to project what we think other people want to see, whether it's in business. I mean, we've all seen the ads of, you know,
20:06
someone crossing their arms has been like, hey, have you been hurt in an accident? Like this is the bulldog or this is someone that's gonna crush and this is the hero or top insurance or top producer of this or we're the best. And people are trying to reassure themselves almost. Like they're spending this money to say like, here's the image I want. Or even on social media, we all kind of do that. We give them the best, the best of the best. But we don't really know the person. And a lot of times the people that are posting the most extravagant stuff are also the people that
20:36
feel scared to be known that's underneath all that stuff. And I've been there too. And so I think to understand that the role we play is the one we choose to let other people see. And that could be really scary to be fully known and it could be scary in business to say, hey, I'm actually not the hero of the story. You're actually the hero and I just wanna be the guide on the side. Like I just wanna link arms with you because it doesn't matter if I'm a top producer, I'm the whatever, like your story matters.
21:05
and I want to help you get to where you want to go. So I think now I'm 42, realizing that sometimes that image isn't all what it's cracked up to be. And there's some richness in knowing people's quirks. There's richness in knowing my quirks. There's richness for me to tell stories about six-drawer that I don't want to talk about on a podcast. You know, I don't, what if Jackie's listening? Yeah, you missed it Jackie. Like you missed it Justin Morgan was attached and you missed it. But Jackie had a...
21:35
She shaped me in a good way so I will never forget how that felt. So one, I can have empathy for others that feel that way. And two, for me as a dad to go, I never want my daughters to be afraid of who they are. So what I could do is call out what I love about them. That's not a image thing. It's not a tied to achievement thing. It's who you are as a person. Like you're my favorite person. Who you are. Like.
22:02
I love that Mr. Rogers line, I love you. Well, he says, I like you just the way you are. I tell my daughters, I love you just the way you are. And honestly, if I'm being really, like I have to look in the mirror and look at my own eyes and the face and say, hey Justin, I like you and I love you just the way you are. Just to remind myself, because I didn't know that growing up, I almost have to rewire neuro pathways to say, hey, totally, I gotta go first as a dad to actually like who I am.
22:30
and be okay with me not, you know, having the best life or having the best whatever, just going like, yeah, some days I'm struggling and you know what? I still like myself and I love myself and I hope my daughters can feel the same way about themselves too, you know? So just trying to instill something I wish I had in them. But I'd love to get you guys' thoughts too, like what's coming up for you in that space? I guess I'm, yeah, I'm curious, Justin and Jesse, like there's something that keeps us from being able to do that.
22:59
that keeps us from being able to like look in our own eyes and actually offer that love, that care. I feel like there's this like barrier there. What would you say that is? I would say I appreciate Justin, the language you used around in your story of, I think you said the phrase like, hey, I don't want to face that rejection again. When I was who I was, when I took the literal shirt off.
23:25
I was met with rejection. Like I think Cody, some of the barrier is there's a long list of stories, kind of similar to Justin's, I bet that we could name, right? Of like when the metaphorical or the literal, like, you know, shirt came off and who we truly are was offered to people. There's a long list of stories that say they didn't want it. Like they had the Jackie response of like, I had no idea you were so tiny, right? Or so fill in the blank.
23:55
And so I think some of the barriers like, man, I know those stories real well. Not only do I know them well, but the end result of rejection or judgment is tied to that. So to risk something else, like those are high stakes. Um, and it feels risky. And so I feel that for sure for me. Yeah. Well, I'm even aware, like just as you're telling that story, like you already believed you were small. Like you already believed that was a problem that you were small. So that's why you were wearing the big clothes in the first place.
24:25
And then you take the one, that one moment where I'll risk it. All right. I'll, I'll, I'll be who I am. And sure enough, like you get smacked with that, that whisper, not even a whisper, right? That mocking laugh kind of of evil, just kind of agreeing with and coming alongside what you already thought was true. That's a big deal. Yeah. And I, Jesse, I appreciate what you said too, cause I think all of us have a similar story of somewhere and Cody, what you're mentioning that.
24:55
We go out on a limb, we take a risk, and it either goes incredibly well, and then our life is just rainbows and butterflies afterwards, or it goes really poorly and it crashes and burns like what happens to most of us. And we have to decide, what next? Is it worth, and even in my own story, years later, being married for almost 12 years and then ending in a really painful divorce. Like.
25:23
I felt kind of like that sixth grade kid that went out on a limb and it ended really hard and it ended very unexpected just like I did not expect that outcome at the vending machine. I didn't plan on being a divorced dad. That was not in the cards. That was not part of my plan. And so what I realized by doing some work around this recently that in sixth grade, it wasn't just a message of being small statured or feeling weak.
25:52
deeply seated agreement that I was unworthy. And I thought, you know, through going through this healing process of a marriage ending, I thought I just felt sad and angry and all these things, but really what I felt was a deep sense of unworthiness. Unworthy to be loved, unworthy to flourish in a marriage, just a lot of unworthiness. And I've been carrying that for 42 years and I didn't even know. And the good news though,
26:21
I think when we talk about snap pants blowing off or whatever happens, you know, all these some of them are funny, some of them are heartbreaking. But the good news is that it doesn't have to keep going that way. Like when we find ourselves in a tragedy, we can rewrite the story. That's the good news. When we understand the story we're in, a lot like what you guys always teach on, there's a first story and there's a second story. The first story is knowing like, hey, your beloved son, you are, you're valued. You have what it takes. In the second story, you are not worthy.
26:49
you're less than you are, fill in the blank. But I love how you teach people to say, what story are you finding yourself in? Because if you find yourself in a second story, the good news is you can actually change it back. It might be temporarily, but you know what story you're in. Are you in a comedy or are you in a tragedy? You'll know when you're in either one, right? And I say comedy, I don't mean like super funny, but like a story of actual hope, right? The idea that it's never too late to rewrite those stories or those messages.
27:19
And I think that's why I have to look in the mirror every day and say, Hey, just, it sounds so weird to say out loud. And I say it out loud because I hope that someone that feels like me out there, that there's one person listening going, man, I just need one tool. I need one thing I could do today just to help give me some hope. And so what I've committed to do, and I've done this for the past couple of weeks, and it's been really helpful. Is I look in the mirror and I look at my eyes and that's the weirdest thing. It's like, I'm looking at myself, which feels, it's still so weird, but it's
27:48
It's something about it, like the weird stuff sometimes has the most healing stuff. And I just say, Hey, Justin, I see the way you're showing up today as a dad. I'm proud of you. I see that you're finding hope today. You're steering into more positive things and negative things today. And I just want you to know you're worthy. You have what it takes and that you're loved. And I just end there. And something about it, you know, when I do that in the mirror, like I want my daughters to know the same thing when I tell them that.
28:17
but I know it has to start with me first. And that short amount of time somehow just invites me back in a first story, maybe for an hour, maybe for a few hours. But I know that if I start my day there, I just live different. I'm no longer trying to hide under the big t-shirts kind of Justin. Yeah, that's so good. And that's a big deal, but it's a struggle. It's a daily thing, you know, of wanting to show up in different ways than my authentic self.
28:45
But when I remind myself of those things, it could be a game changer. And I'm committed to doing that for the rest of my life, not every day, but I want to tell the girls like, hey, dad went first. That's why I know this stuff works. And that's why I want you to know that you're deeply loved and you have what it takes and you're a valuable person. And I love you and I like you just the way you are. When they're little, so they can be adults that already know that, not a 42 year old man trying, as I am trying to remind myself that, you know, learn this for the first time.
29:15
Glad I am. When's the best time to plant a tree? 40 years ago. The next best time? Today. Right, totally.