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Dear Writer, giving and receiving feedback can be hard. Haven't you ever wished you could watch someone else's writing group to see how they do it?
This podcast is focused on just such a writing group. Join authors JC Bybee, Grey Alder, and Tyler Hess as they razz and encourage each other, talk about every writing topic under the sun, and exemplify the subtle art of helping other writers write better.
00;00;00;01 - 00;00;24;03
Unknown
Yeah. The feedback that you guys gave me literally made it impossible to get to that ending that I was talking about earlier that I knew from the beginning. I knew how I wanted this to end. I think the whole title of the story comes from this ending. And so being able to get there simply because I, I had two guys that were willing to say, yeah, you need to work on this.
00;00;24;05 - 00;01;02;11
Unknown
Yeah, this is a fun story, but you need to work on this. This needs to happen. This needs to happen. We need to see more of this. Like, I know I have weaknesses as a writer. I'm not I'm not dumb. And so you. I have to put my ego aside. You have to put your ego aside, or else the feedback is going to be poisonous.
00;01;02;13 - 00;01;26;13
Unknown
All right, welcome to the third person POV, a writers group podcast. This is Jesse Tyler and Gray. And we will get started. Who's up on first? This week, I think it's me. I think it's you to. Yeah, I think I first, last. And I think you were a middle. And I think we did great first. So yeah, let's go with that.
00;01;26;15 - 00;01;53;18
Unknown
Cool. Great. Do you want me to rip into him first or do you want to? You know, I don't even have the document pulled up, so that's that's if we're experiencing this right here. Start out q q future me giving the, hopefully the the proper intro context for what people might need and then wanted to say that I was like, wait, we need to say this.
00;01;53;18 - 00;02;32;08
Unknown
I got to give this for Tyler. Hi everyone. Future jk jk here still sick. This section for this week is continuing relationship building. Establishing personality for how I'm going to have G. Jessica interact with her client, Darren as they move forward. Trying not to get too spoilery, for those that actually want to read the book, though, you're probably going to get major spoilers as we continue on the.
00;02;32;14 - 00;02;37;05
Unknown
Yeah, so listener beware.
00;02;37;07 - 00;03;08;26
Unknown
The the main brunt of this section is Jessica just sort of interacting and me trying to establish personality. And then they continue Jessica and Eve again, this is all from Jessica's POV. Jessica and Eve will continue working on the second case that they picked up. While they are, trying to get information on or monitor their primary case.
00;03;08;26 - 00;03;40;23
Unknown
It's a slow section. Something you guys point out, I think several times, is that I have I need to add some action beats in here to break up how slow it is. And I've got some ideas for that. But that is all I have on this section this week. Okay. Yeah. So I've, I've discovered why I've mentioned this before, where if you go into like, Eve's point of view and I, I don't realize it right off and I realize why I don't think you have enough internal dialog.
00;03;40;26 - 00;04;03;00
Unknown
Typically you have a lot of good action beats, you have a lot of good dialog. But I would want to see more of what Jessica is thinking. Okay. Because we have this whole initial sequence, where she's where she's talking to Darren, and it feels like we've kind of jumped a little bit in their relationship where they're like, she would seem.
00;04;03;00 - 00;04;24;13
Unknown
She seemed like she was okay with pursuing relationship after the contract was done. And now but then the kind of like, I think she talked to Eve or though she's talking to her sister and her sister notices that they're they've, like, settled into this way of speaking that couples, can have they feel like that kind of there was a bit of a jump there.
00;04;24;16 - 00;04;50;01
Unknown
And I want Jessica to think more about it. Okay, maybe maybe if she didn't notice it and she was, or or just something like that, I want to see more of what she's thinking, just kind of in general, I realize that's why I, I don't always realize when you shift to use Eve's view of, okay,
00;04;50;04 - 00;05;22;19
Unknown
Glad that we're getting more into the, investigation with Mirabelle. That's shaping up to be something more important with this whole exceptional gang angle, which I'm really excited to see. Expecting some frickin action from that. Yeah. They, like, they, like, mentioned mentioned that, Jessica. But someone in the head, like, recently. So it's. It didn't. Yeah, yeah.
00;05;22;21 - 00;05;42;18
Unknown
There's all the scenes. It has, like an abrupt end. It's the one that start that ends right before Friday, August the 9th. I want, I don't know if that needs to be, like, extended or cut short a little bit more. So it have that ending. But you end up like talking about getting a car and that's not super exactly.
00;05;42;20 - 00;06;06;28
Unknown
I am interested Eve's creators, I didn't realize that they still had like, any kind of legal authority over her. And I kind of wanted that to come up earlier. That's interesting. The I and and again this is, this is coming from not having read the other books not knowing all about Eve obviously some coming from the other works will understand probably already.
00;06;06;28 - 00;06;31;17
Unknown
But treating this like some of the like it should be clear for somebody coming at it like like gray and. Yeah. Right. And I for the first time, I felt like that needed a little bit something and. They get there. They're talking about all the people learning about Connor. Everybody freaking hates Connor. I'm excited to meet this good.
00;06;31;20 - 00;06;55;12
Unknown
Let's be a good guy. Yeah, that's a great guy. Great guy. Especially that, the fact that Mirabelle hates him, and then she starts dating him and, like, something's going on, and that's weird. That weird? In a good way. From a dramatic standpoint, obviously if this is a real person, I'd be very concerned about them. Yes.
00;06;55;14 - 00;07;17;08
Unknown
I had some other questions. I left comments on that that weren't super clear, but other than that, like I think that's kind of my my most general piece of feedback is that I want to see more internal dialog live, because, you know, you're talking to me about using action beats to to split up dialog. I'm going to tell you to use some internal dialog to split your dialog.
00;07;17;11 - 00;07;46;11
Unknown
Okay. Especially because sometimes like a dialog, like a conversation shift will kind of feel like a non-sequitur. But it wouldn't feel like a non-sequitur if we had the internal internal context. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Oh, setting. I feel like there's a bunch of white rooms I love. I love a little room. I think you've mentioned that that's something you always go back in your revisions, but those are ballistic out to me this time.
00;07;46;11 - 00;08;10;12
Unknown
But yeah, of course. Really good. Do you have good things to say about. But those are the those are the things that I would like to see better. Appreciate it. Yeah. All right. Cool. Jesse, I that's funny. That Tyler seems to have had this epiphany about your work because I feel like I had one as well.
00;08;10;14 - 00;08;29;24
Unknown
And, I might have to kind of talk it out so that I can. I can fully realize this idea of of something that I think would would make your work shine even more, would polish it up. I do want to try out maybe just starting with, the positives and then and working our way down to, to that.
00;08;29;27 - 00;08;46;09
Unknown
So I thought it was really funny the way that you open up with, I mean, clearly there is a jump that has happened even just since the last chapter between Darren and Jessica. And I didn't mind that. I think, you know, we had a lot to say, but last week about how it felt a little fast.
00;08;46;09 - 00;09;13;07
Unknown
You know, their, relationship ramping up. But from that point to this, it doesn't feel unnatural that a little bit of time would have passed. They both, you know, seem to be interested in each other. And, I love just opening up with the. So this game is for every Friday night. And they're just kind of, like, dumbfounded by the fact that they play this role playing game called dad and that they do it religiously as like, so you sure you can't see you take a break or could I just tag along, you know, and she's like, what?
00;09;13;10 - 00;09;33;16
Unknown
There are rules to this. I have to ask the rest of the group. So I thought that was hilarious and I assume will be really relatable, to your readership. Right. The fact that even reference means like that whole that whole, like, I don't know, cold open to the chapter, the fact that you don't tell us where it is for like two paragraphs worth of dialog was, that was gold.
00;09;33;16 - 00;09;53;20
Unknown
So kudos. I definitely I definitely want to see it in DC. You know, like, I want to be a part of a game that I, I do have some you'll have to tell me if you want more or less out of them when we get to them. I'm I because I'm because I'm curious like, like that was one of those questions I had.
00;09;53;20 - 00;10;14;24
Unknown
So when we get there, y'all have to tell me just the phenomenon of seeing a bunch of hot exceptionals playing daddy instead of just, you know, me and Jake and Tyler. Breaking the what is happening? Yes. The honestly. And then bring it in Darren as a fish out of water. Anyway, here anyway, it's your book but yeah, that's I enjoyed that.
00;10;14;26 - 00;10;43;27
Unknown
Let's see other things that I enjoyed. To do to see, you know. There's, there's some quippy little one liners that I thought were pretty funny, like, Jessica, continuing to, to exhibit little bits of sarcasm, with her or. Eve. Sorry. Jessica knew her partner is being sarcastic at the end, but couldn't help responding.
00;10;43;29 - 00;11;04;19
Unknown
That's because your mom's a cop. And, like, as to why she's. She knows all your friends names. Like, I was like, you know what? A normal mom wouldn't necessarily know all her daughter's friends like, oh, but, a cop mom definitely would. So that was also kind of funny. I feel like, yeah, just sprinkling those little things throughout the conversation.
00;11;04;19 - 00;11;23;04
Unknown
Interlacing them definitely goes a long way. Once again, I like how you transition the scene with, de Nora, the transition to Spanish. You do that real quick, real clean to indicate that they're speaking in another language and that there is a bit of a mental switch that has to happen for Jessica. That feels natural.
00;11;23;04 - 00;11;53;19
Unknown
So, good job on that. Cool, cool. And there's just a lot of instances I won't run through every, every line in which I was tempted to write to comment, chuckle. But yeah. Okay. So and then getting to the things that could probably use some polish, do do do do you. Okay, so we always rip on Tyler for his dialog in which we're like, yeah, but what are your characters doing while they're talking?
00;11;53;19 - 00;12;12;29
Unknown
Like, I want to see someone picking their nose or, you know, scratching the imaginary lint from their shirt, whatever it is. I caught an instance of that, in yours where I was like, man, there's just a bunch of ping pong dialog. So I just had to be a jerk and call that out. Thank you. All right.
00;12;13;01 - 00;12;34;05
Unknown
Now it's a little thing. I was like, he finally tripped up. We could nail him right? Okay, so I think the big epiphany that I had here let me zero in on where I first started to have this thought here. I did not realize it would be such a challenge having two tabs open on my computer.
00;12;34;05 - 00;12;53;13
Unknown
So page two. Let's see the dialog tab beginning with, I think you're reading too much into it, Jessica replied. She wasn't quite ready to tell her partner about potentially dating Darren after they had dealt with his stalker. Something about that line. I was like, man, I don't know if that feels a little too on the nose here or there's a way to spice it up.
00;12;53;13 - 00;13;19;06
Unknown
But I was like, maybe that's kind of unfair as a critique, but I kept I kept seeing little instances in which I felt like things were maybe a little too on the nose. There these kind of lines of exposition, like, of course, you wouldn't do this. She would do this. I don't know, if this is kind of approaching this, this issue from another side of, like, the same one that Tyler's calling attention to that you might resolve with internal dialog.
00;13;19;08 - 00;13;41;07
Unknown
I don't know if that sentence would work better as, you know, like, the way that I tend to do it, what I've seen is just the, like, the self monologue or the self dialog, that's italicized or something, just to make it different from actual speech, like the I don't know, I'm trying to say here, there are a lot of instances in which I think things are just a little bit too on the nose.
00;13;41;07 - 00;14;02;24
Unknown
Let me see if I can find another one. Kind of takes that idea out a little bit more. Okay. So on page three, but I already contacted her friends and they said they haven't seen Maribel. Senora Solis insisted she seem reluctant to have Jessica talk to anyone else. The more she interacted with dinner Solis, the more she wondered what was really going on.
00;14;02;27 - 00;14;23;07
Unknown
So I like the fact that, clearly, this character is being a little evasive and seems is coming across as fishy. I think the issue is that you're telling us in so many words she's being evasive and fishy, and I would rather it would be more interesting to me if I felt like I had to do a little bit of work as the reader.
00;14;23;09 - 00;14;46;20
Unknown
Just giving us maybe a piece of body language that's kind of weird and like Jessica going like, okay, that's weird, like mental notes. So then you have that internal dialog, something that calls attention to that without explicitly saying, boy, she's acting weird, or reluctant as you, as you say here. And there were just a lot of instances in which I felt like that was the case.
00;14;46;22 - 00;15;04;18
Unknown
Jump down to the next page. De Nora didn't need to know that she planned on bribing or blackmailing Maribel s friends if necessary. Like that line right there. I think you could just cut out entirely because it already comes out through dialog in the next couple of, paragraphs. And so it just feels a little redundant.
00;15;04;18 - 00;15;26;09
Unknown
And also but it's, I like when it comes out more naturally. Right. It. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah I get you and she does it for blackmail. The girls. That was be exciting. Yeah actually that would have I do I want to see her threatening. I do want to see her using these little her bag of tricks as API.
00;15;26;12 - 00;15;46;13
Unknown
Oh and to Tyler's point, I would like to see when she kind of mentions, what pages that that she had to kind of go out and bust somebody chops like a physical altercation. I was like, dude, don't just Gandalf it and say, oh, I escaped from the tower. Conveniently. Last chapter of scream like, no, like, let me see it.
00;15;46;15 - 00;16;05;13
Unknown
Maybe that's just me starving for action because things have been. Yeah, from the investigative angle rather than. Yeah, that Jesse I know like, this is more like a detective story and actually. Right, right. Like, as big a part of it as it is in your other series. But there can still be, like, emotional ups and downs, I think, which would satisfy my desire for.
00;16;05;16 - 00;16;27;13
Unknown
Yeah. Like if there was like a tense scene where she's, she's got a teenage girl in tears or something like that. I felt like they kind of got all their answers really easily. They didn't. Yeah. Necessarily have to like ring anybody's, neck. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. Say, because the saying is ring the neck. That's not what I'm trying to say, but they're not.
00;16;27;13 - 00;16;47;09
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. The, Yeah. Like, if that if there have been a little bit more pushback there. I mean, there is a little bit of pushback from the mom. But I think that where that satisfied like my need for a little bit of of tension. Yeah. We've lost. Great. I hope you can stay simmer. There it is.
00;16;47;11 - 00;17;12;15
Unknown
There I got that last bit and I agree with, tension might be the right word to describe that ingredient that we could use more of that assault that brings out everything else. Yeah. Because you have, like, just like Tyler said, this really interesting plot that you have, starting to simmer. About this gang and this, this, other character here, Connor, which just sounds like such a I've never I've met a good coder.
00;17;12;16 - 00;17;39;05
Unknown
I want to I've never met a good. I've just. To all the corners out there, we freaking hate. You're not welcome here. Let's stop listening. Don't subscribe. But do you guys ever think of names like, I hate this guy in real life? So I'm going to put his name in my star. I, I try to be very careful of that, but, yes, there's actually a little bit of it.
00;17;39;08 - 00;17;58;11
Unknown
Yeah, a little bit of a tangent with names. My wife and I have such a hard time naming our kids because she'll suggest the name of, like. No. Has it still with that name? No. That's a character in my book. Yep, yep. So these names are. Do you have, specific connotations based on, who you know with that?
00;17;58;13 - 00;18;27;24
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. If you name a character Doris, I'm expecting an old lady, or someone really eclectic. At least. And that's been that's been one of those interesting things with the, with the world of Hero Unit. To the listeners, spoiler alert. Because of how the devastation of the Exceptionals war that half the population of the planet was wiped out, that population centers shifted.
00;18;27;24 - 00;19;06;10
Unknown
There's cultural shifts that have happened. Thinking about naming conventions and how that might have changed is one of those things that that constantly sits in the back of my head. That way it feels more and more true to the world is one of the things that I run into a lot, and not using the same name over and over again, which I have to watch myself for, especially when you're world building, a world that isn't, you know, just cut and our world, you have to really think about it because names are, yeah, crazy important.
00;19;06;12 - 00;19;30;02
Unknown
But we'd be different people if we had different names. You guys both chose to have opinions. Yes. Names are important. They are. And it's, it's a big thing. Can't be an edgelord without an edgy name. Great. Out. Sounds like it's free. Is it because he's tall?
00;19;30;04 - 00;19;55;09
Unknown
Oh, man. Rabbit hole. That was it. That's. Yeah, that's. It's big, names. Yeah. Because I write a superhero series, the hero Unit. Like, I have the DC and Marvel encyclopedias on my bookshelf because I'm looking at, like, superhero names, and I'm like, okay, has this name been used with a similar set of powers in either of these universes?
00;19;55;11 - 00;20;05;13
Unknown
If yes. Okay. I got to try something else because I don't I don't want that inevitable, inevitable comparison. Yeah.
00;20;05;16 - 00;20;28;11
Unknown
Okay. Anything else? Sorry. I feel like we're just totally on you, but, like, I it's by. No, there's one more thing. This is more of, like, a recommendation. I feel like there's a there's a set of tactics that you could use because you are coming at it from this, private investigator, detective angle. That would be interesting.
00;20;28;14 - 00;20;50;18
Unknown
Is just to kind of refresh yourself on those, elements of a good mystery. Red herrings, you know, subtle clues, which I'm sure you've you're already baking in subtle clues. Probably you're probably baking in some of the stuff already, but, people being evasive, not wanting to give up information, that kind of thing.
00;20;50;21 - 00;21;25;03
Unknown
I feel like, one thing that I'm always worried about doing is having too many throwaway characters that are there just to keep the narrative going, like, well, if somebody needs to present this piece of information, and when I watch a really good like Sherlock Holmes type of, show or read something along those lines. Yeah, I feel like every character there is a chess piece that's meant to convey a certain amount of information and usually they have more than one function, like this character is meant to move the plot along this way and also give you this red herring, and also this other thing that they're hiding and that like trifecta of different
00;21;25;08 - 00;21;42;08
Unknown
pieces of information that are given to the reader, even if subconsciously, that like something was off about that character. I think just makes it naturally more interesting and lends itself to that tension or that sense of conflict. Because the the investigator has to think to themselves, okay, I know they're hiding something. The reader knows they're hiding something.
00;21;42;16 - 00;22;07;13
Unknown
What is it? Okay. It'll come out later. Did that help even at all? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's been one of the things with Technomancer as a as a story, because I knew what the ending was, which I don't always. I knew how I wanted the book to end. And I struggled getting it to start.
00;22;07;16 - 00;22;29;18
Unknown
Like, I finished here a unit four and started five and was halfway through five before I realized how I wanted Technomancer to start. But I knew where I wanted it to go. And so I think part of my problem is I've been in too big of a hurry to get to where I wanted it to go, because I've it's been sitting there for so long.
00;22;29;20 - 00;22;48;06
Unknown
So, I mean, the cool thing is, with the mystery, you can go back out, go back in the next draft and sprinkle in clues and things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's almost the best way to do that, because you're not going to have everything in mind as you're going through the first time. Yeah. As I'm revising mine, like I'm like, oh, I see I need to go back and yeah.
00;22;48;06 - 00;23;21;29
Unknown
Sprinkle. Yeah. And from this point forward you will be getting stuff that I all wrote. Everything I've written on it from this point forward has been post writer's group and getting your guys's feedback on my writing. Okay. And so I think the next two scenes maybe. Yeah. Yeah, especially it'll be interesting. The story kind of accelerates really fast from this point.
00;23;22;01 - 00;23;41;04
Unknown
So there's probably going to be a lot of people haranguing you for more action. What? That might be part of it. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see because I've also not revised any of it. Like, this is just like I've read through this, what you've got up to this point, I don't know, ten, 20, 30, 40, 50 times.
00;23;41;06 - 00;24;11;01
Unknown
But the next stuff I just this was the the big 26,000 word run starts. I think after this section. So it'll be interesting to see your take on it. Yeah. Yeah that's awesome. Yeah good stuff overall though JK yeah I, I did find myself laughing out loud like, and described good, good. Well I'll have. Oh man.
00;24;11;03 - 00;24;38;25
Unknown
All right. Any questions for us? It no, actually you've answered a couple of important questions for me this time around. Give me some stuff to think about. It'll be really helpful once I get to, actual revision stage. Of course, I got to get this done, and I have to get it done by the end of March because of when Gem State Comic-Con is.
00;24;38;25 - 00;25;09;27
Unknown
So I have enough time to get physical copies ordered and do me. So deadlines are awesome. Oh, yeah, they're great. It's actually really stressful. Very stressful. All right, who's up? I think it's me. Nick. Yeah. Tyler. Because gray was. Are you were last, last time. Shall I go first? Sure. All right. Let me scroll. Scroll.
00;25;09;29 - 00;25;39;16
Unknown
So this is, Oh, I refresh q q future times q to keep future me. There it is. We'll get this down someday. We probably won't ever. But we probably want. Hello, guys. Future Tyler here. The scene the guys read this week was my first female POV scene. That really should have been coming earlier in my in my book, but it seems like they enjoyed it.
00;25;39;16 - 00;26;05;13
Unknown
Seemed like it did okay job. Basically Layla is frustrated that word has been so distant from their friend group, so she's going to drag him kicking and screaming to a s'mores night. Kind of breaks the tension a little bit between them. But then Riley sees, Riley is Lila's ex-boyfriend. He sees them being all chummy, and he's a little bit left about that.
00;26;05;13 - 00;26;26;17
Unknown
And it comes out that he and Lauren are actually going to be working on a project the next day, which does not make Lila happy, because Riley is an awful person. Who's pretty short one this week. I was giving them more, but the next scene is super long, so I. I broke it up a little bit for them, but basically that's what's going on.
00;26;26;19 - 00;26;54;04
Unknown
All right. Great. Back to you. All right Tyler, thank you for that beautiful introduction to your piece this week. That was so awesome. So special. All right. Okay. So you have, we have been asking and you have been promising. And this week, you deliver Layla's much vaunted POV after, so I, I guess Warren's so interesting that, like, I, I know that we've said that Layla's.
00;26;54;04 - 00;27;13;11
Unknown
I've said Leos, like, has been a little bit like one dimensional up to this point. And I have not minded that because I feel like the other characters are interesting enough to pick up that slack. But nonetheless, it's super exciting to actually be in her shoes. Layla has a very strong sense of voice, which is awesome.
00;27;13;14 - 00;27;30;24
Unknown
She does sound like a high school girl, albeit albeit an intelligent one. So that's awesome. You saying, are you saying that high school girls aren't intelligent? I did not say that. There's.
00;27;30;26 - 00;27;56;09
Unknown
Just lost. So I don't know that we had her first year. I just, I, I work with, with junior highers at my, at, church youth group a lot. And there are some very intelligent girls and something happens when they enter ninth grade. Anyway, so Layla is awesome. Okay.
00;27;56;11 - 00;28;23;07
Unknown
I love that, Layla, she feels like a person. She feels like she's this confluence of, like, contradictory ideas. She's, like, very keen and observational as to the fact that Warren's been evading her and exactly how he's been doing it. Like, you know, skipping classes, getting out early, whatever it is, taking lunches elsewhere and, I don't know, but she's like, also at the same time, she's got this emotional edge to her.
00;28;23;07 - 00;28;41;00
Unknown
Like, I'm really interested in this guy. I acknowledge that I will think about that later. Like, right now I just want to check in and make sure as his friend, I think it's just as his friend that he's doing. Okay. I think I should, maybe I just need to pull out some of these comments. Just, give him some kudos.
00;28;41;02 - 00;29;12;16
Unknown
The mother heading thing, was pretty funny, like, okay, I'm just being a mother hen here. It's not entirely what I'm doing. Like, I may have other motivations because I'm sexy at one point, but it's just, like, very one and done like a throwaway line in her head because she's talking to herself like, of course, sexy. I like the she's very aware of, what other girls think as she's walking with Warren in the school hallways and it's kind of like, I will be excited about this later, but,
00;29;12;18 - 00;29;37;21
Unknown
Gosh, sorry. It was just such a joy to read. Let's see. A couple of, things that felt a little clunky. On, page one, towards the end of this paragraph here, starting with she complained about it, that Larson's, the brooding loner type was hella sexy, as confirmed by overheard conversations about Warren from other girls.
00;29;37;23 - 00;30;01;06
Unknown
Not just Layla's own feelings, but he still acted way too isolated for Layla's mother hen instinct. So I love that sense. It kind of encapsulates, a lot of this section here. That one in particular did feel a little bit clunky. Just the phrasing, that line. Overheard conversations about Warren from other girls. The point is well-taken, but it's just the prose that can maybe be tweaked, at least from where I'm standing.
00;30;01;08 - 00;30;13;27
Unknown
Yeah. Freaking Brianna's plans to ask him to homecoming. Awesome stuff.
00;30;13;29 - 00;30;31;03
Unknown
There's a lot of little comments that just serve as icing that I'm, like, kind of taking notes on how I can use to approach dialog. So when she's invited, she's basically told Warren he's going to be at this s'mores party that's going to be happening. They're not going to talk about weird stuff. They're going to be normal friends.
00;30;31;06 - 00;30;50;12
Unknown
I love all that. There's this little throwaway line here. At least it feels like it, but good. She said, Aggie will pick you up just before seven. I'll be there already and it's your turn to bring the marshmallows. Like, just that little. Like I'm inviting you to this, to do this thing with us. But just so you know, this is exactly how it's going to go down.
00;30;50;15 - 00;31;18;07
Unknown
Yeah, the little bits like that, little touches go a long way to give her personality, to, to, to to do. I like the bits when, of course, Riley steps onto the scene. Right. When the timing would be worst, when Warren's arm is around her shoulder and you give us a little bit more background into just how much of a jerk face Riley is, which I always appreciate being reminded how much I hate that dude, because I really do with burning passion.
00;31;18;09 - 00;31;40;22
Unknown
Good job. Yeah. I don't know that I have that much more to say on this chapter. I think the cadence is really nice between these, action set pieces, with these fights with Warren and the perspective of these other characters and, I don't know, I like that balance. You give us a second to chill here, catch up on the emotional side of things.
00;31;40;22 - 00;32;13;07
Unknown
So good job. Appreciate it. Thank you. But you got JK. So the, overall I love this. It gives Layla context. But because you wrote it so well from her POV, we now need, I think a scene from her POV earlier. I'll talk about that. I'll talk I'll talk about that in a second. I like the little things we pick up on.
00;32;13;07 - 00;32;37;14
Unknown
She's the first person I think I could be wrong, but I think she's the first person that refers to Warren as a friend. Like, I don't think in any of AJ's any of his bits. He he uses that particular word. I like that she's the one that's trying to make that bridge, that gap. Whether her she has our ulterior motives or not.
00;32;37;17 - 00;32;58;11
Unknown
She's still trying to bridge the gap between Warren, the outsider and more in The Friend. I think she's the right person to do it. I don't think, obviously it doesn't fit with Luke, and it doesn't fit really with AJ. Not as the Big Brother type, because he's just a little too protective of the other two. I like her internal dialog.
00;32;58;11 - 00;33;24;02
Unknown
You know, the stuff that you were asking me for on my section. You you nailed it in this one. Let me see here. I like how she, has a very solid sense of right and wrong, to the point that she's willing to exploit loopholes in the school rules to get her right and wrong. You know, not technically a lie.
00;33;24;04 - 00;33;52;03
Unknown
Not technically a lie. And she's right. You know, I really like her as a character, as you've presented her in this section. Like gray said, she comes across as still an emotional teenager. She doesn't sound to old, you know? I think that if I tried to write teenagers, I would make them sound a little too old.
00;33;52;05 - 00;34;14;16
Unknown
I would make them a little too sharp and too fast on the uptake. Really, really easy to do. Yeah. And so I think, again, I think you've, you've hit the right balance. Yeah. It's hard to, it's hard with this group to, to say that I've hit the female voice. Right. It should be somebody else. If you.
00;34;14;18 - 00;34;38;05
Unknown
I'll tell you this. My wife reads everything. I write all of my. Because, dear, dear listener, all of my books are written from the female perspective. All my main characters are female. Part of the reason my wife is my first reader is because I have to make sure that I'm not Sabalenka. Man, trying to sound like a woman.
00;34;38;08 - 00;35;05;10
Unknown
That it that it comes across as the female perspective. And so far she's not really had the critique me too much. But like I said last week, there's one section she had to write for me. And yes, she will get a writer's credit in the next book. Let's see. So you're you're doing good on that point. So you got to got the female perspective.
00;35;05;12 - 00;35;31;24
Unknown
I cannot stand Riley like Bradley. He kind of gets that little bit of sympathy. There's that little bit of that sympathetic edge. Riley doesn't have any of that. And if that's what you're going for, kudos. You've nailed it, I think. Can't stand the guy. Do I think I would be happy if something absolutely horrible happened to him at the end of the book?
00;35;31;24 - 00;35;57;06
Unknown
I don't know, I don't know if we're to that point. Yes, but absolutely. But, yeah, if he ended up going to jail or worse, I don't know, is necessarily just I don't know. But I that's what I'm saying. Well, there's jail and then there's jail. Yeah. Let's see here. I like that Warren is evasive in this one.
00;35;57;07 - 00;36;21;16
Unknown
You normally he's a pretty straightforward guy, but he is evasive in this one situation because he has vowed to them that he's not getting involved. And then he is getting involved with the worst person he could be getting involved with in the whole spooktacular show that's going on outside of town. Like the exact wrong person has read him into it.
00;36;21;18 - 00;36;46;26
Unknown
And if Lila found out when she finds out, I'm assuming she and the others are going to find out. It's the there's going to be serious backlash from it as a result. And so the scene is well written, and the setup as well written. You've given us a lot of setup and you're really good at payoff so far.
00;36;46;26 - 00;37;27;10
Unknown
So, and then we run into why haven't we had a Lila scene so far? Now, in my view, in my view, there are for this character. There are only a few places you can slip in a Lila POV. I think again, your book, not mine. I think one of the places you can do that, and I have this pulled out at the very end, is right after the fight at the lake between Warren and Riley, because there's so many memories and emotions tied up between Lila and Riley.
00;37;27;13 - 00;37;57;12
Unknown
And you admit, like she admits, that he she was the perfect girlfriend, you know, and I think you'd be able to fit in a POV scene from her there to give her. Still trying to come out of being under his thumb, still still trying to break those those bonds that he or chains, I guess, would be the better way of saying it that he's had wrapped around her.
00;37;57;15 - 00;38;25;01
Unknown
And maybe, just maybe, that watching Warren initially kick the crap out of him would help. So, I mean, that's that's one of those spots that I was really thinking that is a good place for a Lila POV because she she is so involved in that scene, even though we don't really know that she's involved in that scene. So that's my my thought on the matter.
00;38;25;01 - 00;38;55;07
Unknown
Otherwise. Great scene gives us an idea who Lila is. But again, from a just a reader standpoint, not having not having a scene from her POV earlier is going to be a problem, I think, just because of who she is and who she comes across at this point. Yeah. Now, other than that, great job. I do appreciate you guys kind of answer all my questions.
00;38;55;07 - 00;39;13;08
Unknown
Like, okay, to the female perspective, credit to us. So here I am. I've got some good, feedback from some of my female students as well. Good that, I'm thinking about with because the whole reason that Lila hasn't had a few of you is just because I'm kind of working up to, like, I was a little bit nervous.
00;39;13;08 - 00;39;39;23
Unknown
So this is the first time. I think it's the first time I've written from a female perspective. So I think I'm thinking about replacing one of ages, a few of scenes because he gets a lot, which, yeah, he is, I wanted to have several because I really like AJ, and I think he's an important character, but I think there's, that could be in places like that pretty easily.
00;39;39;25 - 00;40;08;10
Unknown
Maybe. Yeah. Throw in a Luke one. Should I throw in a Luke? I think we need a Luke POV somewhere. But I'm trying to find the best spot for it and maybe double like, maybe deleting an AJ POV and then double stacking a Luke Layla POV post like fight I think would just encapsulate them as characters, but also help build Warren as a character.
00;40;08;12 - 00;40;42;12
Unknown
I know we've got a lot of Warren building. I know there's a lot of that Warren building, but but he he like we got in the last section, we realize he's a pivotal character in this, in this world, in this town and getting their perspective. Maybe they pick up on there's something that not just that Warren's a fighter, but there's something different about him that can foreshadow the revelation that, oh yeah, by the way, you've got fe blood somewhere in your in your ancestry.
00;40;42;14 - 00;41;09;19
Unknown
I think that's because they're more in tune to it than he is. And so those two POVs, back to back, I think, would lend to more foreshadowing to that revelation. Personally, I would just say I would just caution you a little bit, I don't remember all of the AJ POVs, but they do a really good job of, giving AJ as a pretty objective analysis.
00;41;09;19 - 00;41;33;22
Unknown
I think a pretty good, reading on on folks. And he's also kind of the nexus of this, the initial source of information about the supernatural stuff because of his connection with, Dan, with his family, I don't know. I like seeing Luke initially presented through AJ's POV when they're making beads and Luke's just being a little brother, you know?
00;41;33;24 - 00;41;53;00
Unknown
Yeah. Just be careful if you slip one in. If you remove one of AJ's, which building block you're taking out because, you know, law of unintended consequences. Yeah, yeah, I get what you're saying. And then the question is, do I want to get into Luke's head or not? That's that's always the question. I kind of like him as like a not completely flat character.
00;41;53;00 - 00;42;17;25
Unknown
But, you know, he like, people see him as a little bit of a character or, you know, he's a little brother, I don't know. And I do have more plans for him in the second book, which is why I haven't really pushed myself to have Luke feel me in this book. So knowing that, I would say, hold off on the Luke POV in this book simply because like like gray said, he is the little brother character.
00;42;17;28 - 00;42;38;16
Unknown
And if if his story is more going to come out in book two. Yeah, maybe hold off on his POV then. But something else I need to do with the Layla POV is get more of, more on AJ yeah, nobody really pays attention to AJ like like, you guys know, it's like I didn't even have a physical description of AJ.
00;42;38;23 - 00;43;14;08
Unknown
No, no point in now. But it'd be good to get that first. Yeah, yeah. From somebody else. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Cool. Good stuff. Yeah. Next one's a lot longer. I'm excited to see what you guys, I'm excited to read it. Like, just as a reader, to the best compliment I can give both of you guys is, as a reader, I want to see your books on the shelves so I can buy them and read them.
00;43;14;10 - 00;43;35;03
Unknown
And that appreciate it like that. You've both caught my attention. So, I think you're I think you're up there with a lot of the stuff I've read. Yeah. I mean, refinement issues aside, I'm talking about, like, the core story elements. You guys have both got it. So. Yeah, right back at you, Jake. Appreciate that. I would hope so.
00;43;35;03 - 00;43;39;02
Unknown
I've got eight books.
00;43;39;04 - 00;43;49;27
Unknown
Yeah. All right. Great. You're on the chopping block. Cue future. Great. What's up guys.
00;43;50;00 - 00;44;09;18
Unknown
All right. What's up guys? Here's Gray Elder with some context for the chapter that the guys are going to be reading this week. So this is kind of a quieter chapter. It sees our main POV character, Ned, and also the chaplain, Gil, from earlier chapters continuing their walk along the main road to the destination and Saint Balance.
00;44;09;21 - 00;44;30;01
Unknown
So hopefully reached a couple chapters. The road is known as the Tangled Man's Throat and it is dangerous. But in this chapter we get to see a little bit of a quieter and more daytime side of that area of the forest. There are certain aspects of the forest that come out, such as the fact that certain trees tend to choke out the road with their branches.
00;44;30;03 - 00;44;53;01
Unknown
Also the fact that up till now, the characters have only seen merchants traveling this road with their supplies, rather than the local tribesmen. That'll changes in this chapter as needed. Gil happened to bump into three other travelers in the middle of the road. One of them is another merchant, and the other two are local tradesmen who are about to throw down in an ancient custom known as the Blood feud.
00;44;53;04 - 00;45;27;08
Unknown
The chapter closes with Gil stepping into the ring and, offering to stop the fight by way of volunteering himself and nen instead of the tribesmen. In this conflict. All right. Slice it in right afterwards. Okay. Yeah. Perfect. Yep. I'll start us off. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. All right. I like the overall flow of this again as a a section to be read.
00;45;27;11 - 00;46;20;15
Unknown
I like where it's going. It's moving the story forward. It's moving worldbuilding forward. It's moving the character forward there. I mean, we're still on the right track. I'm still interested. You're still asking questions and giving answers. Which is always important. There the c most of my comments are structural things. Overall, like with Saint Bellamy's you use sometimes you use saint the full word and sometimes you use the abbreviation Hof just happened to pick up on, I noticed, couple of spots and I might I, I think I stopped tagging them where you you had mentioned that you were initially writing this from one first person, and you switched up to third
00;46;20;15 - 00;46;48;00
Unknown
person. I think it works better from third person. Let me just throw that out there. I think the way you're writing this, it needs to be a third person, narrative. So I just tag the ones that I felt were relevant to let you know that, hey, just catch this. I like Gil as a character. He's an interesting to me character.
00;46;48;02 - 00;47;19;03
Unknown
And I think he's a good foil to me. And and stills. Like, when stills pops up, if he crops up again, I think Gil serves as a good foil. I liked the proverb. It sounded sounded like a proverb. So good job on that. It it fit. I like the world building about his dad's story. I it was reading that and.
00;47;19;06 - 00;47;56;12
Unknown
And then you give me ends thoughts about himself and who is he? And I get leads into this exposition and I and this this introspection, that lets us know that, okay, this guy is unique. He he he's not like other memory majors. Which then asks us another question. What are other memory mages like so good there? I will say that I, I is this planned as a series or is this planned as a standalone?
00;47;56;15 - 00;48;25;26
Unknown
I think we've asked that before. Series. Although I'd definitely like this book to feel like a complete story. The first one. All right, so you have some questions you're going to need to answer. Or at least give satisfactory pauses to, that you've asked, like, especially about the the neon stills character. And about how memory magic works and about other memory mages.
00;48;25;28 - 00;48;52;08
Unknown
Because we're getting more information about the chaplains, which I like. And, and the thing about the chaplains is they come across as a lot, it's they have similarities to a lot of religious organizations that we have in our world. You're giving them some of the trappings and some of the things that it feels familiar without feeling the same.
00;48;52;10 - 00;49;08;04
Unknown
So I can relate to what a chaplain is. I kind of have an idea of what a chaplain is, but a memory mage is something else entirely. So, you're answering questions about them, but also giving us more questions to ask. So.
00;49;08;07 - 00;49;40;06
Unknown
If that makes sense. I like the forest. It feels like they. I would say a little bit more about the forest as they're marching. I like how the trees just can't be kept back. They're always encroaching on the road. And, because they've sort of civilized the tribes a little bit, it's become more, more problem. To that that, let's see.
00;49;40;09 - 00;50;15;08
Unknown
The interactions between the two tribesmen in the merchant, I, I mean, the merchant is just there as a facilitator to earn money and to make sure that he can keep earning money. Okay. I'm going to help this conflict end. I like the tribe. I like the tribal worldbuilding. About how the tribes work, how they interact, how they interact, and that, they're violent.
00;50;15;10 - 00;50;46;16
Unknown
But that fits, within the world of the the area's forest because it's a dangerous, dark, violent place that would inherently instill that into anybody that chose to live. There was forced to live there. So it's not like I don't think it's it's a stretch for them to be like that, especially after having read the short story that you gave us initially about this, this world understanding what it's like.
00;50;46;16 - 00;51;24;27
Unknown
I've got that little bit of background and I'm like, okay, I know this makes absolute sense. Let's see here. To the to the. And Jill's bargain at the end was interesting to me because he says, Jill very specifically says that the, Master Gardener frowns on unnecessary bloodshed, but then offers them up as combatants in this potential blood feud.
00;51;25;00 - 00;51;38;23
Unknown
And to me, it's it's what the who defines what is necessary and unnecessary bloodshed, you know, and so he's he's.
00;51;38;25 - 00;52;01;13
Unknown
Saying that he doesn't want unnecessary bloodshed. But maybe to him, this is a necessary moment for that unnecessary moment for violence. So it doesn't like some people might think that's contradictory. Why is he saying he's going to step in? Well, to him, maybe it's necessary for him to step out. So I like the way you you approached that situation.
00;52;01;13 - 00;52;17;15
Unknown
I like the way the setup works. Yeah. I mean, there's some smoothing out and dialog and prose that can be done throughout the section, but that's not my job. My job is to point out the good in the bad. The good is it keeps us going in the narrative. It doesn't drag it down. It doesn't slow it down.
00;52;17;18 - 00;52;47;19
Unknown
It doesn't speed it up too fast. You're still keeping your themes throughout. You're giving us more of who these characters are, and you're keeping us interested. But being aware that you've got a lot of questions you're asking the readers. And while making the readers ask about your world and the answers. I mean, I don't think they need to start coming immediately, but the answers need to to be there as all.
00;52;47;21 - 00;53;08;03
Unknown
That's all I got. Cool. Much appreciated. Thank you. Yeah. Jesse said a lot of things I was thinking about, what most of the most of the good things that I was to say. So I won't repeat all of them. But I will say I loved that the merchant was just, like, offering things that like, hey, kill each other with this.
00;53;08;06 - 00;53;31;01
Unknown
I thought that was really, really fun. That was good. I really liked how the tradesmen are, tradesmen are described. What they look like. But really cool. Really? Really, fleshing up the world. There. Jesse said about the blood, the. He's, I'm really interested in that. How dare you? And right before they throw down.
00;53;31;03 - 00;53;58;10
Unknown
What the heck? My biggest critique and. Yeah, and Jesse already mentioned, like, the perspective shifts from, from a group and altogether, my biggest critique. I won't talk about guilt a little bit. I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit. Gray. Who? Who? And don't spoil anything, of course, but like, in your mind, what kind of a person is guilt?
00;53;58;13 - 00;54;23;17
Unknown
Yeah. So this is kind of a twisted version of the hero's journey, in a weird way. And so there needs to be kind of an Obi wan, but not, and I hope that's the role it goes to filling in a sense. It's kind of a I was wondering if this wouldn't be too much of a slow burn unpacking the relationship and how Nin slash still feels about guilt.
00;54;23;18 - 00;54;45;28
Unknown
Like initially there should be some conflict, some. I don't know who this guy is and hopefully try to transition into a relationship, in which, atrium, the memory master is not the only person he's learning life skills from, right? He realizes maybe there's a positive role model, that he can adopt something along those lines without saying too much.
00;54;46;01 - 00;55;08;09
Unknown
Gotcha. Yeah. I think maybe there's been a bit of a slow burn. I think there's there could be little hints. And you have had Dale teach, the and some things about the forest. And, you know, he drew that barrier and he's kind of protecting the of the law, but other than kind of threatening him with a knife in the last section, he spoke kind of inconsistent to me.
00;55;08;11 - 00;55;33;29
Unknown
Like, it didn't feel like maybe you had a super clear image in your head of, like, what? He's like. Like what his personality is like. And I was trying to put my finger on, like, where and when and why. I can't do that very well. But I did feel like in this section we got like two comments fairly close together that kind of made, Gill seem a little bit sex obsessed.
00;55;34;03 - 00;55;51;25
Unknown
Not that he probably is, but it just kind of came off that way just because of where the comments were put. Which didn't feel like Gill, at least not the image I had in my head of him. And then when he's like, yeah, well, we'll fight feature. He didn't feel like somebody who would seek out violence, kind of like what you were saying.
00;55;51;25 - 00;56;16;19
Unknown
JK and even then there's like, let's say so much for is it so much for the peace loving chaplains right at the very end. He's loving chaplains. Yeah, yeah. So which, which, which is a great comment, but it felt like Gill was that chaplain who was peace loving who, who. And we know that he's dangerous because atrium has told us that, that he hasn't.
00;56;16;20 - 00;56;33;03
Unknown
He felt like someone who's dangerous but kind of holds it in reserve. So some of his actions in this action felt inconsistent. So I kind of wanted to put you on the spot and make sure you've had an idea of that. Maybe there's maybe there's something in something there. I don't know if you you picked up on that at all.
00;56;33;03 - 00;56;58;08
Unknown
JC that was kind of my feeling towards Gill and an emphasis on feeling like I said, there wasn't too much to like, actually based off of. I didn't go back and read everything, every interaction that that Gill has had to, to kind of, yeah. And that might be something I was subconsciously picking up on, because there were a couple of spots where I or I read and I would pause and I would think, and I just couldn't quite put my finger on what I wanted to articulate.
00;56;58;08 - 00;57;31;17
Unknown
So maybe that's it. Maybe it is that that. And now that I know what you're kind of going for with him, that he's sort of filling the same role, but in a slightly like the light side of the role that atriums been filling for neon. Yeah. I think a few more hints of that would be helpful. Because he does come across as this, you know, this happy giant when we first meet him.
00;57;31;20 - 00;57;36;19
Unknown
And yeah, I mean, obviously first impressions.
00;57;36;22 - 00;58;05;11
Unknown
Yeah. I think we were, I think going through and engaging how he's interacting with not just the world, but with me and and with other aspects of the world and seeing if, you're foreshadowing it enough or can sing, staying consistent within it enough, I think. I think you're on the right track with that. Tyler. Because I really like, like, yeah, from when he was introduced, I like, I, I love him.
00;58;05;11 - 00;58;34;21
Unknown
I'm going to be super sad when he's killed and that's. Yeah, that's the thing. Like we like a gill is a good character. And yeah, if he does die it is going to be it is going to be an emotional moment because he is a good character, a very likable character. So maintaining that that likability, that consistency, that that mentorship vibe, I think will be a big help.
00;58;34;23 - 00;58;59;18
Unknown
Yeah. You have you you probably want me to shut up about Jonah, but having a scene from Gil's perspective, I have not. I'm, I'm cautious about doing so. I and that's not like I recommend it. Not so that you can include it in the story. Like, it doesn't have to be in the story at all.
00;58;59;20 - 00;59;21;24
Unknown
But just so that you can kind of feel more like you understand what's going on and Gil's head like as an exercise as much as it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a good idea. Yeah, yeah. I think, it kind of gets away from me when I try to write these multifaceted characters, and it seems like they're just having weird emotional shifts.
00;59;21;26 - 00;59;39;02
Unknown
Yeah. For sure. And then and like. Yeah. So go ahead. Oh, no. And then also kind of to speaking to Jake's thought about like the questions like, okay, you need to start answering some of these. And like, that's true. I'm always trying to hold back information as long as I possibly can. I'm like, well, that must get kind of tiring too.
00;59;39;02 - 01;00;02;18
Unknown
So trying to find that balance. Yeah, yeah. And speaking of Gil's multifaceted, it's like there are moments where you, like, comes down and says something really serious and it feels supernatural, like it feels like something that that somebody like El, who has a lot of experience. And even though he is kind of this exuberant fella, like he's had experiences like that, there's been no love.
01;00;02;21 - 01;00;19;00
Unknown
So when he comes down and like, it's really serious with you, that was it. That feels really good. So like, I don't I'm not talking at all about bits like that. But just like, you know, you kind of have to have a feel. And we're coming at this and we've only we have a limited feeling for what you're supposed to be like.
01;00;19;00 - 01;00;56;28
Unknown
He's a character in your head. But that's I think that's just the start. I think something that might help is a little bit more of his mannerisms. Just in general, like what he does with his hands and his body language. Right. Yeah. Because having been around several veterans who have been through really terrible things, they have certain mannerisms that he would have having, you know, survived for five years, I think you said.
01;00;57;01 - 01;01;22;29
Unknown
Yeah, in the forest. He would have similar kinds of mannerisms, a certain level of wearing, like neon. Here's something rustling in the bush. Crap. That's that's bad. And he's like, it's just squirrels, right? Like, that is one of those mannerisms that's important. He recognizes the sound. He knows he doesn't pay in getting any attention. There's other mannerisms that you could sprinkle and that would help us see that.
01;01;22;29 - 01;01;50;26
Unknown
Okay. Yes, he's a very exuberant guy, but he's also this. He's also a soldier. He's also a survivor kind of idea. Yeah. Awesome. Something that I would appreciate you guys looking forward, or keep an eye on going out with regard to Gil, too, is, maybe mentor's the wrong word. Maybe Big Brother is more what I'm going for.
01;01;50;29 - 01;02;17;11
Unknown
Okay. Yeah. And just whether or not, he actually feels that way going forward. Yeah, I appreciate that. Anything else? I know I'm excited to see them throw down. Yeah, yeah. All right. Sweet. And then if they throw it down like I, I'm just assuming they don't have to throw that. There may be there may be some that that may be why there's a chapter break.
01;02;17;11 - 01;02;49;12
Unknown
There seems like there's. Yeah. From till next time dear viewer. Reader. Yeah. Cool. Thank you guys. Appreciate all that. That's that's super useful. I don't think I have any specific questions then. Awesome. Yeah. Looking forward to next time. Yeah, definitely. Closing out our episode. Last episode we talked, we said that we would talk about bad reviews, but then we were just talking before we started recording this episode.
01;02;49;12 - 01;03;12;19
Unknown
Or like, yeah, one of us, the like actually, we don't have a lot of experience, so maybe we'll, we'll can of worms that. Yeah. The very Good Writing Excuses podcast says very often if you talk a little insincere, after you listened to what is of course. Yes. Priorities talk about that when we actually have, more experience to, to to think about it.
01;03;12;21 - 01;03;41;26
Unknown
But we did want to talk, about feedback in general, though, we touched on this last time, but we thought we'd go a little bit deeper. Yeah. Into what do we say finding people to give us feedback. Yeah, yeah. Getting getting feedback in general. One of the things that I, I personally struggled with at the beginning of my writing career and granted, my writing career started when I was ten, was letting other people read what I was writing back in when the dinosaurs were still.
01;03;41;26 - 01;04;11;27
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. You know, right after, right after the flood, but but you need to be. You miss my joke? I'm sure you throw it out there. Right? Or the what can laughter. But you need to be you need to be able to find people you trust to read what you write. My my example is always my wife.
01;04;11;29 - 01;04;51;00
Unknown
She reads everything I write, even though my wife is not a thriller mystery crime novel reader. She doesn't read them. It's not her genre. It's not her thing. She does fantasy, Regency romance. A little bit of urban fantasy. That's more her stuff. But she reads everything I write. And part of it is, again, as I mentioned earlier in the episode, because I'm double checking the female POV, but because she's willing to give me honest and open feedback, she's willing to say, this worked.
01;04;51;00 - 01;05;21;22
Unknown
This didn't work. Maybe try this. Look at this. And as a writer, you need that. That's why, again, the writer's group is so important. Yeah. I'm sorry I missed the joke. But I did hear the questions. I was just going, oh, this is refreshing. Referencing the fact that I'm the elder statesman of the group. So much wisdom contained in that beard.
01;05;21;22 - 01;05;50;08
Unknown
Jace. Yes, every fiber, every fiber of it. Man. So, the question as to, you know, different feedback mechanisms that you can have as a part of your writing diet. I mean, it's essential and there are a couple different ways that that work in tandem, ideally, right, that make that happen. And as a newbie, I can speak with specific experience to only a couple of those as of yet.
01;05;50;08 - 01;06;13;16
Unknown
So, obviously beta readers are something that you're going to hear a lot about, and you're going to hopefully implement when it, when it comes, your time to step up to the plate. Right. Because you want to get as much of that feedback as you can. I will say that, what I've heard discussed with beta readers is it's sort of like when you take your first draft in to get looked at, like you're like your car to a mechanic.
01;06;13;18 - 01;06;32;26
Unknown
When you take your car to the mechanic, they are the professional. The mechanic is your editor, right? You're going to be able to say, so my car is making this screeching sound. I'm pretty sure it's the engine. And your editor slash mechanic is going to say, maybe that's the brakes. You had the right idea. Something's wrong. But I could give you specific feedback as to why.
01;06;32;28 - 01;06;50;17
Unknown
And when you take it to someone like, a beta reader who reads a lot of, fiction in your genre, ideally. Right. I think they're going to have a good nose for the fact that something is wrong and they're gonna be like, okay, you hear screeching from your car. I'm pretty sure that's because you need more headlight fluid.
01;06;50;17 - 01;07;03;23
Unknown
And you're like, what is that? That doesn't even make any sense. But at least you alerted me the fact that there's a problem. Now, if you have, I don't know, depending on the sample size of beta readers, if you have a bunch of them that are all telling you it's the same issue. Okay, you better start paying attention.
01;07;03;23 - 01;07;34;19
Unknown
Maybe this is the issue, and maybe the prescription they're offering is the right one. Maybe right. But, you tend to give your editor more weight. I can speak on a personal level. More to like. Like Jesse's talking about, like, having people that I know in my life, read my stories. And, man, just that jolt of electricity that you get from knowing that someone's actually going to be reading what you're spending so much time writing, even if they're not a big fan specifically, if you're a genre like, that's still that's still really awesome.
01;07;34;19 - 01;07;57;26
Unknown
You know, even if they're not the person, they're not a huge fantasy reader in my case, but they're still able to tell me, like, yes, doesn't suck. I was able to read the whole thing and understand the words on the page like, yeah, doesn't. I mean, that is something. And that gets me, that gets me to the next lap, which is like bringing it to these guys in the in the writing group who are able to give me more specialized and specific advice.
01;07;57;28 - 01;08;23;00
Unknown
We're not the first ones to read your story. Great. Have you been I mean, in some cases. Yeah. But I mean, the more that you can surround yourself with people who are reading your stuff, in one capacity or another, I think the better. Yeah, yeah. How about how about you telling, I getting getting good feedback is so hard.
01;08;23;03 - 01;08;39;11
Unknown
I think what you need to be really clear with when you're, when you're giving your story to somebody is, is that you really want to know what's wrong with them? Yeah. Slap me in the face. Yeah. Like, just be like, just be really prideful. But, yeah, I'm already the best. I know I'm the best. You don't have to tell me.
01;08;39;14 - 01;08;58;02
Unknown
What's what, what's wrong? What's wrong with it? Yeah. That's like that's like kind of how we, talk about, like, ribbon to me. Like, is it, is it my turn to integrate or or something like that because, because that's really, really useful. And hopefully you get people who will give it to you in a, in a loving way.
01;08;58;05 - 01;09;20;03
Unknown
Yes. Which, which is nice, but and like, like my grades say, like a lot of people are saying the same things. It is your story. You can change whatever you want. Unless you've already sold the rights to other or whatever, and the other people have control, which in second place, I'll do that. But lots of people are saying, and you probably want to listen and and invest accordingly.
01;09;20;07 - 01;09;38;20
Unknown
Not not necessarily going straight in the direction that everyone's recommending, because recommendations like, we sometimes don't give each other recommendations about how to what to do with our stories, which is nice. That's something to think about, but it's not always something that you're going to do. It's not always something that you should do. Yeah, because this is your story.
01;09;38;22 - 01;10;11;21
Unknown
You're the one selling it. And it's important that your voice, that your your story comes out. And we got a perfect example of that. I think tonight when we were talking about the Layla perspective and where you could put one in prior to what, where, where we got it in the story and everything we told Tyler, were suggestions like, I don't expect Tyler to immediately go right after we're done with this, or whenever he works next and cram a Layla perspective in right where I told him to.
01;10;11;23 - 01;10;36;05
Unknown
But it gives him something to think about. Like, there there's certain aspects of my work, for example, with here a unit part of this is I've already have five books out in the here or a unit series there. The guys are going to suggest things that I'm like, I can't really do that because of this break. Break.
01;10;36;05 - 01;11;00;24
Unknown
Shannon. Yeah, yeah. Or there like there have been times my wife has suggested things. My wife, who I love dearly, been married to her for 20 years. She'll suggest something. And I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not going to do that. Just I just I've just Cory and she's holding a gun. And so that's the, the thing about getting like, feedback is.
01;11;00;27 - 01;11;23;13
Unknown
Yes. If like gray said, 20 people have read it and all 20 of them say this needs to change, you really need to take a look at that. And how you change it is up to you. But if one person says, well, I didn't like this, but another person says, I love this. Like we've had that so many times in our interactions where I'll say something and I'm like, I like this.
01;11;23;15 - 01;11;27;01
Unknown
And like, I didn't like that.
01;11;27;03 - 01;11;56;27
Unknown
It it's, it's there for I mean, it it it's like Tyler said, it is your book. It's your story. You need feedback. You are not writing in, a bubble. You're not writing in isolation. But other writers, other people like these guys are aren't. And I'm not saying this arrogantly. They're not my competition. They're my coworkers. They're my my my fellow writers.
01;11;56;29 - 01;12;21;23
Unknown
They have experiences that I don't have. So when they give me feedback, I need to take into serious consideration. And sometimes because, again, we're reading our stuff in short snippets, what what did we say? Our word limit was 5000. I think we had a word limit. Did we I know, is it. I thought it was okay. Yeah, I was looking for ideas.
01;12;21;23 - 01;12;39;15
Unknown
I was like, yeah, I think I'm getting too close to the. Yeah. So we try not to get. Yeah, we try not to get more than 5000 at a time. And so sometimes we miss the broader context. And I'm sitting in the back of my head, they're giving me some comments and I'm like, yeah, I'll deal with I know, I know that that's going to be dealt with.
01;12;39;15 - 01;13;03;11
Unknown
It's not a problem. And so you're, you're readers, the people that are giving you feedback. You got to take everything into consideration, look at it, and then decide, yes, or no. Good idea, bad idea. It's it's wholly up to you as a writer. And I think we've said this before, but you really can't get defensive about it.
01;13;03;15 - 01;13;20;06
Unknown
Like if, if these guys are giving me feedback. And I said, but I'm going to do this, and I said this and this fixes that, that that kind of ruins the whole thing. Like, take it, take your likes, keep on moving if you agree, if you disagree, you got, you got you got feedback. And that's that's an important thing.
01;13;20;08 - 01;13;42;28
Unknown
Yep. Yeah. Yeah yeah. Sometimes Jake slaps me in the face and I and I say thank you. Yeah I mean I have some more. In the moment, like it may sting a little bit but you're like yes. He's right, I knew, I knew in my heart of hearts that he was right about this. Like yeah I know there's yeah.
01;13;43;00 - 01;14;09;27
Unknown
No. Abby are you going to say though before I realized I was. No that's that's just I'm, I'm listening to you guys talk about technomancer. And it's one that I, like. I said, I've struggled to write it, and so I really have had to put my ego aside because I have been pounding my face against this story for a lot longer than I care to admit.
01;14;10;00 - 01;14;33;24
Unknown
And so, yeah, sometimes some of the things you guys are saying, I'm like, That hurt. But because I've been bringing it to you, because we've been talking, I was able to finish the darn thing like the feedback. Cool. Yeah. The feedback that you guys gave me literally made it possible to get to that ending that I was talking about earlier that I knew from the beginning.
01;14;33;26 - 01;14;54;13
Unknown
I knew how I wanted this to end. I think the whole title of the story comes from this ending. And so being able to get there simply because I, I had two guys that were willing to say, yeah, you need to work on this. Yeah, this is a fun story, but you need to work on this. This needs to happen.
01;14;54;13 - 01;15;17;12
Unknown
This needs to happen. We need to see more of this. Like, I know I have weaknesses as a writer. I'm not I'm not dumb. And so you I have to put my ego aside. You have to put your ego aside, or else the feedback is going to be pointless. You might as well just write it and publish it and be done.
01;15;17;15 - 01;15;20;20
Unknown
Amen. You know.
01;15;20;23 - 01;15;48;13
Unknown
I think even feedback from smart people too. Yeah. I don't know if that's something you say. Yeah, no, that's that's one of those things that, I kind of maybe we'll save that for another question. Talking about getting experts and reference and research. So if somebody is smart enough to tell you about your story. Yeah, yeah. Because, like, that's one of those it's one of those things.
01;15;48;13 - 01;16;10;21
Unknown
There's a, there's a fellow writer he's taught at the writers conference that we, met at where he worked for the government. He was a government contractor. He knows how a lot of this stuff works. And I sat in one of his classes, and one of the things he said is the FBI is not allowed to come into a police station and just take over a case that is not allowed.
01;16;10;21 - 01;16;32;02
Unknown
That is not a thing they can do. That is not a thing that ever happens. And yet, how often do we see that on TV? All the time if the FBI shows up, guess what? The FBI's taking over the case. And that was a big help to me because I was like, oh, I can make that not a cliche.
01;16;32;05 - 01;16;43;13
Unknown
So having experts and people that are smart and no subject matter is another important aspect of feedback.
01;16;43;15 - 01;17;11;17
Unknown
Yeah, it's a good point. Sensitivity readers, if you have, specialized topics in your book. Yeah, yeah, we just covered like three topics probably too quickly. We need to talk about them some more. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, I think I think we should probably close off there, you guys. Yeah. Thoughts? All right. Oh, before we go, plugs.
01;17;11;20 - 01;17;39;23
Unknown
Yeah. Since this show, this will come out theoretically before Gem State Comic-Con. Hopefully I'm saying this with hope that we get accepted because they're reviewing the applications as we speak. We might be doing a panel at Gem State Comic-Con in Boise May 15th, 16th, and 17th. And I will if everything goes well, I'll be releasing two new books that weekend, so.
01;17;39;23 - 01;18;13;16
Unknown
Wow. Yeah, screw you Daisy I, I hear that a lot from these guys about having to swallow my pride. Nico. And on this day, I will be even more successful than you. Before, when we have merch, we'll have a shirt. Yes, as. Yeah, absolutely. And it's guaranteed it has to be there. That could definitely be misinterpreted. Yes, I.
01;18;13;19 - 01;18;42;15
Unknown
It's all about branding. We got to brand it properly. Sure. Yes. We'll put a, hardware tool screw right next to. Yeah. Jk where where else can people find out more about you and what you're writing? So I've got my website, JC baby.com. I've got all my socials. It's either author JK baby or JK Dot baby.
01;18;42;17 - 01;19;13;06
Unknown
Facebook Instagram threads. X and I have my Patreon as well. And that has an exclusive story that you can only get there that is a cyberpunk. Very nice. And maybe sometime. So we'll have a Patreon for the podcast. Yes, definitely. Somebody is listening to us right now. We may have done it. Yes, you can podcast where there's our moms listening to us.
01;19;13;10 - 01;19;36;13
Unknown
Yeah, just my mom probably won't listen. My mother is not going to listen, so we'll do our best. Maybe we'll get to that point. Yeah. Go, go check out Gray's Substack. You know. Great. Great it yeah, I understand at Gray Alder for Substack. And then also you can give me a pity follow if you feel so inclined.
01;19;36;16 - 01;20;00;02
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, but I've got some shorts on there. Nice. I guess I'll plug my. Speaking of, Adams, Grace. Sorry. I'm so sorry. That's the first slip of the first. Good job. That's impressive. Don't go on the meditated. I go on a little quick little thing. Speaking of picking the writer's groups, and picking smart people.
01;20;00;04 - 01;20;21;17
Unknown
When I first met gray at the writing conference that we all met, they gave me a subset, and I skimmed his story. Like, okay, he can be my writing group. So, guys, it's okay. Yeah. I'll plug my website. Has Tyler Blogger.com. I've got, some little snippets of stories. I've also written some articles. It's about, creative writing.
01;20;21;20 - 01;20;45;14
Unknown
And I'll probably have, some YouTube videos on, like, embedded on there too, by the time this is out. So go check this out. Right? Yeah. His writing, articles are very informative. I also did my homework. I have to check those out. Yeah, well, dear listener, thank you for for being here. If you are here, you hypothetical, you, we love you.
01;20;45;20 - 01;20;46;26
Unknown
And we'll see you next week.