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Best Beginnings is the podcast for everyone working in or caring about the early years. Hosted by George Looker, CEO of Babyzone, each episode brings together leading researchers, clinicians, practitioners, policymakers and parents to explore the evidence, ideas and innovations shaping how we support children and families in the UK.
From infant mental health and attachment to workforce challenges and systems change, Best Beginnings goes beyond the headlines to have the conversations that matter most in early childhood.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Best Beginnings is brought to you by Babyzone, a national charity operating free, evidence-based family hubs across England for families with children aged 0–5.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:06:21
Unknown
the early Years piece is absolutely at the center of all this, all of those interventions that I've set out, they matter.
00:00:06:21 - 00:00:28:09
Unknown
They're important. There will always be a need for them. But I don't need to tell you this because you are the choir in the analogy. But everything you can do in the early years is just so much more of a powerful investment, because you are intervening before the gaps emerge. You are helping the parent as well. And everything we know is that this is intergenerational.
00:00:28:11 - 00:00:50:13
Unknown
Welcome to Best Beginnings, a podcast from BBC where we talk to the people working hardest to give every child the best possible start. Today, I'm joined by the CEO of a charity trying to do something that sounds simple, but turns out to be one of the most ambitious things you can attempt to change the way an entire nation feels about numbers.
00:00:50:14 - 00:01:14:14
Unknown
Not just whether children can do maths, but whether the parents beside them feel confident enough to help, whether adults written off at school can get a second chance, and whether the anxiety one generation hands to the next can finally be interrupted. Lizzy Gaiman is the CEO of the Richmond Project, and what's striking is how much they've been able to achieve in a remarkably short period of time.
00:01:14:17 - 00:01:44:03
Unknown
The charity only launched in 2025 and in little more than a year, it's gone from a standing start to producing the largest survey ever conducted on how the UK feels about numbers, with more than 10,000 people. The first phase has laid bare a country anxious about numbers, with a confidence gap that falls hardest on women and mothers. A second phase, published only last month, turned to money and found that 4 in 10 adults don't have the financial literacy to manage
00:01:44:06 - 00:02:05:17
Unknown
In the same short span, it's put more than half 1 million pounds into early years. Numeracy programs launched a national initiative to thread numbers through stories that families already read together and built a series of partnerships, the newest of which is with us funding Everyday Maths baby Zones Oprah program for families with children aged 0 to 5.
00:02:05:19 - 00:02:15:09
Unknown
Because that's the thing about numbers. They never really just numbers. They're the family budget, the homework table, the decision a parent makes at the supermarket till
00:02:15:13 - 00:02:18:19
Unknown
Lizzy. Welcome to Best Beginnings. Thank you so much for joining me
00:02:18:24 - 00:02:21:23
Unknown
today. Thank you for having me and for that very generous introduction.
00:02:22:02 - 00:02:29:21
Unknown
Well, you have done a remarkable amount of work in the first year of the Richmond Project. Tell me about why it exists.
00:02:29:21 - 00:02:31:07
Unknown
What is the problem that you're trying to
00:02:31:13 - 00:02:54:05
Unknown
solve? Absolutely. We are really excited to be working in this space. The Richmond project was set up by Rishi Sunak. And when they left number ten, and I think the genesis of it was them thinking, we really want to drive social mobility in our country and we really believe passionately in the power of education to do that.
00:02:54:08 - 00:03:19:23
Unknown
That's the sort of general level of education as a driver of change. But I think for both of them in particular, they were drawn to numeracy because it is actually, relatively speaking, and underrepresented cause in this space. Literacy is brilliant, and we'll say much more about that later. So then absolutely not in either all. But it is striking that that has attracted more funding, more volunteers in the past.
00:03:19:23 - 00:03:44:22
Unknown
And I think just from their own experience, both being lovers of numbers, showing how kind of problem solving can be driven by good numerical understanding. The financial literacy piece that you mentioned, it seemed like a really, really strong place to focus. And so they set up the charity with the mission to make numbers accessible to everyone. Much as you said, I think they show up in life for everybody, whether they like it or not.
00:03:44:23 - 00:04:03:19
Unknown
We know often they don't like it and we want to change that. We want to drive a big cultural change where nobody says, I'm not a numbers person. Numbers terrify me. They're not for me. And we are really excited to have got to work right away with families and schools and other organizations.
00:04:03:21 - 00:04:21:02
Unknown
It's really exciting moment. And I think what we found quite sort of staggering, frankly, when we were looking at launching new baby zones and extending our reach, was there's lots of content out there and brilliant early years professionals and practitioners delivering reading phonics classes.
00:04:21:02 - 00:04:42:04
Unknown
Obviously, we're familiar with some of the activity classes could of kickers and and running around, but very little that was around maths and numeracy and concepts that are quite simple that can be done at home. But there wasn't that familiarity in the early years ecosystem around it. Why do you think maths did take a backseat to reading and phonics?
00:04:42:04 - 00:04:46:20
Unknown
I realized that it's not either or, but it just obviously is something that's happened organically.
00:04:46:24 - 00:05:14:19
Unknown
It's so interesting, especially when as of course, you will know sort of early comfort with numbers. Early strong numeracy is so predictive of later life outcomes. So it's funny in a way that it is often sort of has been overlooked. I think actually we do know from our research that people do know that math is important, but I think the hesitation is really an emotional and a confidence one.
00:05:14:20 - 00:05:34:01
Unknown
There are plenty of people. You don't have to look very far. I'm sure we can find lots in any office or any shop we walked into of. People have had a negative experience somewhere along the line learning maths. I think confidence means that people don't practice their skills. The skills are like a muscle. If you don't practice, you genuinely will find it harder.
00:05:34:01 - 00:05:37:06
Unknown
So it's not just that you don't like it, it's that it will also show up in your competence
00:05:37:08 - 00:05:56:07
Unknown
our results to our research that indicate very clearly that all of these things are linked. And so I think they'd probably just been a nervousness, honestly, to bring this into, into early years learning settings. I think I'm sure we'll talk more about the gender gap, but that is obviously also a really important part.
00:05:56:08 - 00:06:12:00
Unknown
We know a lot of primary care givers, our mothers, we know a lot of early years educators are women. And so I think knowing what we do about the gender gap in numeracy and number confidence, it's not that surprising, maybe that it has been a little bit harder to crack. So
00:06:12:02 - 00:06:17:00
Unknown
that's the problem that we're confronted by. I guess you're here to provide a solution.
00:06:17:00 - 00:06:39:07
Unknown
I think you've decided described it as a once in a generation opportunity to change mindsets, to have an ambitious strategy, to sort of go, how can we kind of get to the crux of the problem? What do you want to happen? What do you see when the clock forwards what needs to happen, whether it's in schools, whether it's at home for the Richmond project to have gone, mission accomplished?
00:06:39:09 - 00:06:56:05
Unknown
it's really important. I think we're all really ambitious for what we want to do. So hopefully this is a sort of grand scale vision. And I think if we were to redo our survey in five years, ten years, we'd want to see a big change. And I think for me, that really is a full lifetime view.
00:06:56:05 - 00:07:13:24
Unknown
I'm going to go backwards because I want to talk most about what we're doing together and Baby Zone. But I think we can see a lack of confidence with numbers showing up for adults in their daily lives, whether that is employment or their financial literacy. So we want to help. You mentioned sort of adults not being left behind written off.
00:07:13:24 - 00:07:45:02
Unknown
I think that's so important. So we definitely want to help with interventions in that space. And that might look like mass financial literacy education. It might look like employment specific activities. Then also looking, as I say, going backwards in time to the person when they're in school, whether that is resetting their GCSEs. We know that's a really important point at which you can break a cycle for someone, and turning a fail into a part is one of the most life changing things you can do for someone with that maths GCSE qualification, so that's important.
00:07:45:03 - 00:07:58:13
Unknown
Even earlier in schools we're funding peer tutoring. So very nice that year five, teaching year three and so on. So that those gaps that are already emerging in year three have some help from someone who can relate to them changing it.
00:07:58:13 - 00:08:01:00
Unknown
But the reason I've gone backwards is actually because
00:08:01:00 - 00:08:07:21
Unknown
the early Years piece is absolutely at the center of all this, all of those interventions that I've set out, they matter.
00:08:07:21 - 00:08:27:04
Unknown
They're important. There will always be a need for them. But I don't need to tell you this because you are the choir in the analogy. But everything you can do in the early years is just so much more of a powerful investment, because you are intervening before the gaps emerge. You are helping the parent as well. And everything we know is that this is intergenerational.
00:08:27:06 - 00:08:34:09
Unknown
So early years is absolutely core to our strategy as a charity, which is why we're so excited to be working with you.
00:08:34:15 - 00:08:49:22
Unknown
Oh, we're really excited to have this partnership and it's great to have this momentum. I think there is a discourse that's changing around maths and numeracy as well, and I think it is getting to the front and center a lot more than it perhaps once did.
00:08:50:02 - 00:09:08:01
Unknown
Why do you think it's changing? Why do you think that there is a greater acknowledgment of what people are talking about? How can we help children understand? How can we help parents with maths in the home learning environment? How can we help teachers and early as professionals have greater confidence? What do you think's changed?
00:09:08:01 - 00:09:11:18
Unknown
I think this is a really interesting puzzle and a lot has changed.
00:09:11:19 - 00:09:31:18
Unknown
I think we have now generally more public. Maybe I'm saying this because I am a parent. You correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we have a more public conversation generally about what it means to parent your child and the various things that are very challenging that go along with that. So I think that's a big part of it.
00:09:31:19 - 00:09:39:21
Unknown
There is certainly more and more, and it's a great thing, right? Conversations around school readiness and all the rest of it. And then I also think at the other end,
00:09:39:21 - 00:09:48:03
Unknown
a big part of, I think the conversation that Rishi and Orchestra have been part of, about kind of what's our national agenda as we look to the society we want to be in the future.
00:09:48:04 - 00:10:10:12
Unknown
There's so much changing in terms of the world that our young people are coming into. What do we know with certainty are the skills that will equip them for success. So I think there's both a sort of personal and familial public narrative where this is probably playing a role, and then also the more kind of macroeconomic nation building, one where we look at what our children really need and the evidence for numeracy is unarguable.
00:10:10:12 - 00:10:30:01
Unknown
So it's great that that's cutting through. And it's, I think, something we're really committed to do as a charity as well, amplifying that conversation on the national stage. I always joke that often people who know numerous is important have spoken a lot to other people who already know that numeracy is important because they both like numeracy and basically are good at maths.
00:10:30:01 - 00:10:42:17
Unknown
And the same is true of financial literacy. And the most important thing to do is to bring that conversation into the broadest space, where we're talking to people who haven't engaged so much with the topic and letting them know it is for them to. I think that's cool to our strategy.
00:10:42:19 - 00:10:48:16
Unknown
And I think that's what I love about the simplicity of everyday maths is to go, actually, this is for you.
00:10:48:16 - 00:11:13:10
Unknown
This is something that a mum can do while they're making supper at home and counting out a number of pasta shapes and figuring out what's heavy, what's light, or a dad can do it, or waiting to cross the road and you're counting down the the number until the person turns green. It's about saying this is for everyone. So every day everyone needs to have confidence with this.
00:11:13:12 - 00:11:40:03
Unknown
And so let's talk about what you touched on, that intergenerational anxiety that your report, the research that you published shows quite evident that that anxiety is along gender lines. And also, I would hazard a guess in terms of going. We work with a lot of families that are in deep poverty and in poverty, and sort of how we help those families that, you know, are not not confident with numbers.
00:11:40:05 - 00:11:56:06
Unknown
What is the what is the message, I guess, to that parent, to that person that's struggling to go? Actually, this is something that everyone can understand. We can break it down, make it digestible. Is that how we break the cycle, or what are the other things that you're seeing as effective
00:11:56:08 - 00:11:59:22
Unknown
practice? No, I think that's exactly right. And it's why we're so excited to support babies.
00:12:00:01 - 00:12:17:06
Unknown
I mean, sadly, you're correct, right? The gap gender is very large and the socioeconomic gaps are just as large. Really. And interestingly, they are we in the research we looked at how confident people are with numbers. And we also set maths problems. So you could see the skill and the confidence side by side. There are gaps for both, but the confidence gap is the biggest.
00:12:17:06 - 00:12:42:23
Unknown
And I think building just the willingness to engage with mass is a key part of this. The thing is, of course, they intersect so powerfully. So the people who are struggling the most of all the brackets that we looked at, the beauty of a large sample size is you really can see this as low income mothers. And one of the reasons we're thrilled to be partnering with babies own is we know that you have amazing reach with those groups in terms of what to do.
00:12:42:24 - 00:13:06:17
Unknown
I mean, the key thing actually, that the research also reveals is while they might struggle the most, they also are sort of actually disproportionately keen to improve. So you're pushing against a very open door. And I'm thrilled to see you already seeing this with the everyday maths programs. We were talking earlier about one of the centers having a queue, which is absolutely ideal for everyday maths, but really it's about what everyday maths does and what we think.
00:13:06:18 - 00:13:27:21
Unknown
Hopefully all the programs that we're working with in this space will share. This feature is demystifying it, breaking it down into small steps and making it feel fun and not like yet another thing that you need to integrate into the mental load of being a parent when you're already under disproportionate pressure. I love the examples that you gave, and I think they're really key.
00:13:27:22 - 00:13:50:14
Unknown
I think another part of it down the line is demystifying homework. Our findings suggest that, you know, there's a fully a fifth of parents who are very, very nervous to help even a primary school level child with homework. So it's play. It is simplicity. It's knowing who to ask for help. So a practitioner or a teacher, I don't think any of it is actually rocket science.
00:13:50:14 - 00:14:00:15
Unknown
It's more about literally showing up to have the encouraging conversation and to make people realize they're not alone in wanting to and needing to be building that skill.
00:14:00:15 - 00:14:24:04
Unknown
Yeah, I'm fascinated by that gap between the skills element of the sort of assessment. And then there's a confidence. How do you think we can become more confident with maths? What is it that you think that obviously there's going to classes, there's reading, there's trying to find other opportunities to to feel like you've got the knowledge and you've got the information accessible to you.
00:14:24:09 - 00:14:28:05
Unknown
But how do we flick that switch in terms of people feeling more
00:14:28:07 - 00:14:49:12
Unknown
confident? Yeah, it's a really, really big part of it because I think like any skill, if you are not willing to practice or you don't feel able to practice, you're just kind of frozen in the headlights. So yeah, I really think that is important. I think it's all first of all, I think there is power in data.
00:14:49:12 - 00:15:06:13
Unknown
And so being able to say, do you know that this gap exists and people then don't feel like they have had some sort of huge personal failing? That's the opposite of what we want people to feel, right? We want them to feel like everything's ahead of them and it's not something they've done wrong, but something they can have help with.
00:15:06:14 - 00:15:15:21
Unknown
So I think that mentality and just seeing in the data okay. Yeah, this is not just a new thing. This is a national endeavor everyone's working on is important.
00:15:15:21 - 00:15:31:05
Unknown
And then I think, yeah, it comes back to the playfulness and something we talk about a lot and I think is really important is meeting people where they are. And so, you know, we will joke in the office because Rishi is a huge sports fan.
00:15:31:06 - 00:15:55:19
Unknown
If you really like sports, there are loads of ways to have an accessible kind of conversation or try and enjoy numbers through that. That's just as true if you like baking or if you like art or whatever your hobbies would be. So I guess like a tip from me would be, if you're trying to build confidence with this, don't view it as some big other thing that you have to do in a vacuum, but rather think about what you already do enjoy doing and see how you can weave it in.
00:15:55:23 - 00:16:02:02
Unknown
I mean, I could talk about this for for ages. It's a really, really complex one. But I think starting small and accessible is key.
00:16:02:02 - 00:16:13:05
Unknown
But also, again, finding that moment where you can have joy with your child and you sort of go, actually, these are things that we can do together. We can help do some baking and sort of measuring things out.
00:16:13:06 - 00:16:25:11
Unknown
Or it could be playing football or cricket in the garden or whatever it might be, and using that as an opportunity to spark joy and both feel more confident yourself and help your child become more confident for school.
00:16:25:13 - 00:16:43:11
Unknown
That's what we're trying to engender here, is actually if you go to an everyday maths class at a baby zone, obviously there's no tables and blackboard and it is a chaotic, thriving, noisy environment because there's ten, 15, 3 to 5 year olds in the room.
00:16:43:11 - 00:16:47:17
Unknown
But you can still learn, you can still do things together in that space.
00:16:47:23 - 00:17:07:02
Unknown
Well, that's the beauty of the early years, is the child doesn't come into it with any of the sort of cultural baggage that might exist around maths. And also they're absorbing whatever they see in their homes. If they see their parent taking them to an everyday maths program, they think, oh, like mum or dad or special grown up, whoever they are can do this with me.
00:17:07:04 - 00:17:09:09
Unknown
It's so self-reinforcing for them.
00:17:09:09 - 00:17:25:22
Unknown
one of the things we've done as a charity as well, which is very similar, is our program books count is tapping into exactly this, which is we there's really amazing evidence that practicing number concepts in a very low, low stakes way. By reading through reading a story, I mean, you and I have children the same age, right?
00:17:25:24 - 00:17:43:09
Unknown
So you're now hopefully cycling through the books you have at home that there's loads where this applies. We have our online book club exactly for this reason, which is saying you might already read this story with your child. And that's not understate, by the way, the problems that I know we have with reading for pleasure, that's why we're doing this.
00:17:43:09 - 00:18:00:18
Unknown
You might already read with your child, or at least you hopefully know that's a good thing to do. Well, did you know you can practice this number skill at home? And it's kind of like, you know, it's 2 in 1. And I love reading those books with my children at home. But what I observe is they don't know, you know, this bit is maths and this bit is reading.
00:18:00:19 - 00:18:14:10
Unknown
They're just having a moment of connection and their minds opening to something which is just it's so powerful. So that's why we're really supportive of initiatives like this, because genuinely is fun and joyful, which is wonderful.
00:18:14:10 - 00:18:32:01
Unknown
It's really important that we find those spaces, those moments for parents because it's stressful. It's lots of people are very concerned about school readiness. We've started talking already about our latest cohort of children that are going to be going to reception, and we know that there are too many children that arrive at reception.
00:18:32:01 - 00:18:56:22
Unknown
They don't feel confident already on some of these things and that parents aren't confident to. What is it that you'd like to see from schools in the education system in terms of taking down some of the barriers, but also helping parents on a certainly early in their career at in schools. Is there anything that you're seeing as good practice or things that you'd like to say?
00:18:56:23 - 00:18:57:21
Unknown
Actually think about it
00:18:58:01 - 00:19:11:04
Unknown
differently. That's yeah, such an interesting question. I mean, the first thing to say is I think there's there's a ton of really positive stuff to say about what happens in schools. And we always say, you know, we're not here to kind of completely rewrite the maths curriculum or anything.
00:19:11:05 - 00:19:36:20
Unknown
Actually, there's a really good stuff in both across all key stages. From a curriculum perspective, I think life is tough for teachers, that much we know. And so we'd be reluctant as an organization to give them a new kind of 50 item to do list. I think in very practical terms, the school readiness piece is obviously key. It is interesting that counting doesn't actually sort of really feature in that most of the time.
00:19:36:22 - 00:20:04:05
Unknown
And so building something that is reminding parents that building these skills at home really matters, because without going too much into the fact that the once the gap is there at the start of school, it's harder to close. I think something that builds those those habits and routines, actually, we I think there are some interesting areas where we are hopeful that we might be able to really support schools over the longer term.
00:20:04:05 - 00:20:26:07
Unknown
So one of the projects that we've funded is something called Rethink Maths, which is a trialing a new, early, sort of later IFS maths curriculum. But it's a way of teaching. So it's not a perfect analogy to compare it to phonics, but the sort of keep up rather than catch up aspect of phonics and the limited teacher variability that a phonics scheme brings.
00:20:26:07 - 00:20:57:07
Unknown
We think it could bring that to early maths, which is incredibly exciting. We're in the early stages of that, signing up nurseries and receptions now, but it'd be interesting to see how that goes. But I think my overall message with with schools and to families is actually there are good resources out there, and it's so much about having a positive culture around maths in your school, in your home, a willingness to engage where help is needed or where there are gaps and it's all to play for basically.
00:20:57:11 - 00:21:27:06
Unknown
agree, and I think there's a sort of there are some small signs that you can see that these things are working and that schools are trying, the ecosystem is trying. And again, I think what I, what I love about our conversation is and understanding that this is just as much for the parent as it is for the child and sort of going actually, sort of while it may almost feel like a bit of a Trojan horse moment where you're saying, come in for this kind of everyday maths class for your child, and actually it's really about going to mum, to dad, to the carer.
00:21:27:08 - 00:21:53:09
Unknown
You can do this too. And sort of going, what is it that what are those light bulb moments for a parent that can go and take these resources home with them, or do when they're just having a moment with their child? I guess there are lots of moments that we try and create in a baby zone hub, but also at home for parents and across school as well as their children grow up.
00:21:53:13 - 00:22:14:21
Unknown
What would you like to see from a, you know, partners like Baby Zone and the other initiatives that you've worked at in terms of the outcomes you're looking for? The sort of I know you've spoken about the data and being really led by data, which I think is enormously powerful. Sometimes you can't get all that longitudinal kind of impact data that you'd want.
00:22:14:22 - 00:22:25:06
Unknown
What is it that you see working in the sort of projects that you've initially funded, but also kind of what are the outcomes you're hoping to see over the next year or multiple
00:22:25:09 - 00:22:36:01
Unknown
years? Yeah, it's so case by case depending on the specific program. But maybe taking the baby's own example because this conversation that's obviously very meaningful for both of us.
00:22:36:03 - 00:22:55:20
Unknown
You are spot on, I think, and I know you are already starting to do this, that we want to see how comfortable the child is getting with various number concepts. And what I love about the Everyday maths program is that so rooted in their daily life anyway, so that's really important. But the parental engagement aspect of it is absolutely key as well.
00:22:55:20 - 00:23:24:14
Unknown
So goodness knows we are not about to spring a math test on every parent that's completed the program. That couldn't be further from what we want to do, but I think it is absolutely central to us to know both that the child's fundamental conceptual understanding has been built and also that the adult is, if not, if it's not possible to test their conceptual understanding, but at least engaging in a very positive way, coming back to that confidence that we spoke about.
00:23:24:14 - 00:23:45:13
Unknown
And that's because that intergenerational pattern is just so key. One of the other things we really, really love about Baby Zone is there's the child who's going through the program, there's the parent, but there may well be siblings at home who also benefit from that. So having both of those, as it were, like participants really represented and knowing that it's affected them both, we can feel then confident in that, in that ripple effect.
00:23:45:13 - 00:24:10:16
Unknown
But yes, we we do want to see, you know, changes in attitudes towards numbers. We want to be able to see how actual competency changes where that's relevant, but it just varies so much. Coming to the other end, if we retest financial literacy, we do that with three kind of globally standardized questions that test understanding of compounding of inflation and risk diversification.
00:24:10:16 - 00:24:19:00
Unknown
Now clearly that's a very different thing to be measuring. But we that clarity is key with every different program. What would it look like?
00:24:19:02 - 00:24:39:15
Unknown
I'm fascinated by the work you're doing on financial literacy, because we actually had Alex come in from the Aviva Foundation and we were speaking about and we're doing a project with them around financial literacy for some of our parents that are pregnant and thinking about their maternity rights and statutory benefits and everything else.
00:24:39:15 - 00:24:59:19
Unknown
And he made a comment and goes, actually, it's the parents that are in poverty and really challenging circumstances. They're the best budgeting of them all, because they really make every penny work for them that they have in their bank account. But they may not be confident with maths. And it's sort of there's an interesting kind of dissonance between those two things.
00:24:59:20 - 00:25:11:03
Unknown
I guess out of your financial literacy research and what you've seen is that link between confidence and numbers and budgeting there, or is it sort of how do you see those two things being
00:25:11:05 - 00:25:11:08
Unknown
things?
00:25:11:10 - 00:25:33:24
Unknown
Yeah, actually it's the research really bear. So it is everything from likelihood to have enjoyed maths at school to did you actually pass GCSE to how did you perform on our maths test within this research? Because for the first time it's all in one place. This is how I feel about numbers. This is how I perform in your math test.
00:25:33:24 - 00:25:41:17
Unknown
This is my financial life in terms of understanding, and this is how readily I could come up with an emergency payment. The link to maths is unarguable.
00:25:41:19 - 00:25:53:02
Unknown
people with very good financial literacy are about good or very good. About 80% likely to have passed mass GCSE people with poor, very poor. It's just over half. So it's a very, very stark difference.
00:25:53:02 - 00:26:19:09
Unknown
And I think we tested the way we tested it with those three questions. Those are fundamentally core numerical concepts. I think the thing to emphasize, though, is we are not saying you haven't a hope of managing your financial life. If you can't remember Pythagoras theorem, we are saying you can learn these number concepts at a way that works for you, and it will genuinely unlock better decision making for your finances in your life.
00:26:19:10 - 00:26:45:21
Unknown
Like those three things we measured are linked very clearly over two decades of research to stronger financial decision making. So it I understand the hesitance to or the hesitation to accept maths as a building block for this, because if you have had a very challenging relationship with numbers and your last official interaction with maths was GCSE level. However many years ago, it can feel like a scary concept.
00:26:45:21 - 00:26:54:07
Unknown
But we're actually saying no. This is an opportunity to enhance both sets of skills simultaneously when done right.
00:26:54:09 - 00:27:13:20
Unknown
So if you'll indulge me, I'd love to talk about you a little bit as well and your journey to the Richmond project, because I think it's an interesting sort of flow and lots of interesting work with Great Ormond Street Hospital charity and then consulting and banking, I guess sort of what's been that thread that's run through all of that.
00:27:13:20 - 00:27:18:17
Unknown
And when did numeracy specifically become something you've wanted to put all of your energy into?
00:27:18:22 - 00:27:35:19
Unknown
Sure. I mean, I've been so, so lucky with, with all these different areas of my career. So yes, you're right. Started out at Great Ormond Street and loved the charity side of it and have always also been very passionate about education. And I'm a school governor in my local area.
00:27:35:19 - 00:27:54:18
Unknown
And I think the consulting experience, which I loved, was great because it gave me multi-sector experience and a lot of work with strategy and problem solving, which means you can take kind of almost any question and you just think, okay, this will be answerable if I break it down in specific ways, which has been a really valuable skill.
00:27:54:19 - 00:28:14:06
Unknown
I'm incredibly grateful for that. Training, numeracy. I think there are two answers to that question. One is just it has been very helpful to me that this is a skill that I have. So in that consulting and setting, this is not me saying, oh yeah, give me a kind of mental maths quiz right now, because I really don't want to do that.
00:28:14:06 - 00:28:49:06
Unknown
But it is helpful that I don't I don't feel frightened of doing analysis with numbers, and it does mean that you can, you know, fully explore all the information available to you. So but there's a part of it which is personal, but mostly JP Morgan, which is where I went after consulting, really ignited in me a passion for financial literacy, specifically just seeing how a struggle to feel confident with the numbers in your life, which often is people's finances, can hold people back and can sit at the center of many other complex issues, which I'm sure you see with families at Babies Don't all the time.
00:28:49:07 - 00:29:24:06
Unknown
Right? It's not an abstract concept. It's absolutely pivotal. That is, that's where I really became determined to work in this space in particular. And then I was just incredibly, incredibly fortunate because I was thinking about how can I really make this happen, saw that Rishi and were putting their experience, their expertise to use in this specific area. And, you know, after briefly moaning to my husband that maybe someone else was going to go and do my dream job and get to work in this charity, he sort of encouraged me to throw my hat into the ring.
00:29:24:06 - 00:29:40:23
Unknown
And so it was just like all as you say, you used the word thread. And I think that's right. All of these threads just pulling together in this amazing way and meeting them and seeing their vision and their genuine sort of passion and commitment to doing this properly, I just couldn't, couldn't not do it. So that's how it all came
00:29:41:00 - 00:29:54:04
Unknown
Oh yeah, it sounds like a brilliant place to be and brilliant momentum. And I think, you know, there's obviously there's environments and I had consulting background and these things I think it's great for those that it works for.
00:29:54:05 - 00:30:22:09
Unknown
I guess I'm a provocative question. Off the back of it is how do we make sure that those organizations that obviously right at the frontier of understanding AI, understanding how we use research from universities, ensure that that is passed to everyone, that we make sure that it isn't something that is just the privilege of big banks and consulting organizations and accountancy firms.
00:30:22:11 - 00:30:30:09
Unknown
Do they have some responsibility to make sure that it's cascaded across the country, or is there what would you like to see them doing to make sure that it's shared rather than
00:30:30:11 - 00:30:59:21
Unknown
captured? Yeah, I mean, I always think, yes, the answer absolutely is that everybody has a role to play. And that's I think hopefully, like my career experience shows that a multi-sector approach is actively helpful. But I also want to be really optimistic in my answer to you and say, every single day since starting the British project, I have been blown away by support, encouragement, interest from all walks of life very much including, although not limited to business.
00:30:59:21 - 00:31:24:18
Unknown
And so I am very hopeful for a very collaborative, multi-sector solution. And I will share anecdotally, we've had great conversations with banks already. We did an amazing piece of work with. I did not work at BCG. So it's, you know, I'm gracefully a competitor to my former also wonderful firm. But BCG did an amazing piece of research for us on financial literacy and the best practice for financial education.
00:31:24:18 - 00:31:45:08
Unknown
So you are right that business has a lot of responsibility. But I also feel like we have been delighted so far with the response we've had from businesses. And I think that hopefully speaks to one of the things that we hope to do as an organization, which is bring together these different groups and these different stakeholders and make that change happen.
00:31:45:08 - 00:31:49:14
Unknown
So definitely with you on the need for it, but very positive.
00:31:49:16 - 00:32:15:23
Unknown
Yeah, I'm encouraged as well. Again, the conversations that we have, but it is concerning. I look at baby zones are often located in youth zones across the UK, and we sort of look at the neat rates and all of that kind of employment, youth unemployment at record levels and how we sort of square that circle to make sure that the employers are giving or supporting children looking for jobs, how can we make sure they're prepared?
00:32:16:00 - 00:32:23:04
Unknown
But I think you answered it earlier. It starts right from day zero, right from early childhood before they enter the school gates.
00:32:23:04 - 00:32:30:22
Unknown
I guess it's how do we make sure that that is shared and we give more children that opportunity where their adults are talking about these things?
00:32:30:22 - 00:32:40:18
Unknown
I couldn't agree more that those seemingly and it comes back to meet people where they are in their interests, those things that take it out of being an abstract subject.
00:32:40:18 - 00:33:04:07
Unknown
Sometimes you know the subject that people might even make jokes about, you know, you've got double maths and they sort of and making it instead this really powerful way of understanding the world that can stay with people forever. And I certainly see that with my own children. I'm trying to give them those sorts of experiences of numbers so that they have real life reliability, very young in terms of how we give it to people.
00:33:04:08 - 00:33:27:04
Unknown
I really believe that's something really special about the everyday maths program that Babies own is running, and about other programs that we're supporting in the space as well. I think they have all unlocked this special way to make maths feel accessible, relevant and a positive force in their life. Much as thankfully, I think we are also doing as a country around reading, right?
00:33:27:07 - 00:33:41:13
Unknown
I think even things like World Book Day have such a positive impact on people's perception of what that skill can do for them. And it is great to see that there are these green shoots happening where we can do the same for numeracy. Absolutely.
00:33:41:13 - 00:33:47:22
Unknown
What a bit of a quick fire around for you now. So what is what is a number that means something to you
00:33:48:02 - 00:33:48:12
Unknown
personally.
00:33:48:13 - 00:34:11:03
Unknown
Oh fantastic. I mean say 1313. Obviously some people think it's unlucky. My husband and I got married on the 13th of the month. It was like a glorious day and he's fantastic. And also in the public domain about me is that I'm a Taylor Swift obsessive, and Taylor Swift also loves the number 13. I want to be clear, that's not why we chose the 13th for our wedding, but I think I'm going to choose 13 today.
00:34:11:03 - 00:34:20:04
Unknown
That's fine. What is the best and worst piece of maths advice you've ever heard being given to a child?
00:34:20:05 - 00:34:39:02
Unknown
Okay. The best is that you learn from getting it wrong. So it's the kind of that's the side effect of showing your working is that process is valuable in itself the worst. And this I feel more strongly about is whenever I hear someone say, don't worry, you won't have to use it again after you do the GCSE or you leave school or whatever it is.
00:34:39:05 - 00:34:54:02
Unknown
I just sort of want to run after them and say they will use it. They'll use it every single day and if they don't use it, they won't be understanding all the information in front of them. So worst is any version of I was terrible at it to and you won't need to use it. Don't worry about it.
00:34:54:03 - 00:34:59:20
Unknown
I think that is just wrong. And yeah, best is getting it wrong is helpful
00:34:59:24 - 00:35:10:00
Unknown
and something you'd like to see a parent do this week to spend time with their children. It can be free, no equipment just to help build their child's confidence in maths.
00:35:10:02 - 00:35:21:12
Unknown
We talked about books count. I do think that's really amazing. And a lot of the books are very accessible and well known anyway, so we also we started it by talking about The Very Hungry Caterpillar, and I think it's a great example.
00:35:21:12 - 00:35:41:17
Unknown
But outside of that, my children love to make a pattern. That's a really good one. And sometimes I think people jump right to numbers and their brain starts thinking about sort of scary. Charts or shapes are also really important. So my, my children like to make a pattern or arrange by size or guess the weight or anything like that.
00:35:41:17 - 00:35:50:11
Unknown
I think those things are really fun. And the best thing is everyone has something in their house that they can do that with, or at home that they can do that with. We've been doing a lot of memory games.
00:35:50:16 - 00:36:02:07
Unknown
at home, so permanence and that kind of stuff. Again, there's sort of the, the memory, but also kind of the logic behind all of those things that I've been trying to explain that there's sort of mass behind it, but I'm not sure I've quite landed
00:36:02:07 - 00:36:02:18
Unknown
it.
00:36:02:20 - 00:36:15:23
Unknown
But they don't need to. They. Yeah, I've done that with double and they sort of look at me like I'm sad loser trying to explain something to them honestly, but I do. I think games are amazing and even good old Snakes and Ladders is is really, really helpful for
00:36:16:00 - 00:36:27:20
Unknown
But really anything and this is true, I think of anything early is the connection that the child is experiencing with you, or whichever grown up is sitting down with them and going through them is so valuable in itself.
00:36:27:20 - 00:36:39:05
Unknown
And even if they're not absorbing every single mathematical concept every time, they will understand they've had a positive experience with you and with something mathematical, and that can only be a good thing.
00:36:39:07 - 00:36:46:05
Unknown
And then in one sentence you may have more, but what does it what does a numeration look like?
00:36:46:07 - 00:36:52:14
Unknown
It's a great question. There are, I think, two interrelated answers to this.
00:36:52:14 - 00:37:14:06
Unknown
And they really are a cycle. So is it okay if I give them both? Okay. Yeah. Great. So I think that one is the is the sort of the data answer that I gave you. Right. Which is we have measured confidence and competence. We have measured financial literacy. We have measured financial resilience. That is our baseline. And a numeration looks like that improving.
00:37:14:06 - 00:37:43:08
Unknown
So we haven't talked that much about the actual stats. But you know it's under half of British adults are sort of did well on that competency test. 4 in 10 have poor financial literacy. Those numbers need to change. But the other part of that, and it really is it's a flywheel is the cultural piece. So the things that we've been talking about in terms of how people talk about numbers, how they feel about them, their hesitation to engage the gaps that exist, that are so interrelated with other cultural forces.
00:37:43:09 - 00:37:52:11
Unknown
All of that changing is the other vital part of what a numeric nation, I think, ends up looking like.
00:37:52:13 - 00:38:05:00
Unknown
And what gives you the most hope? We've spoken about the challenge and the difficulty of making sure that is part of the discourse and what parents do at home with their children, I guess. What gives you? Yeah. The green shoots.
00:38:05:06 - 00:38:24:20
Unknown
Yeah. I think I'll come back to something I said about the positive reaction. I think, you know, I'm under no illusions. Right? So when I started working here, I thought, I'm going to say numeracy charity to people and they're going to give me some version of like maths. But I wouldn't mind that because I think that's part of the problem.
00:38:24:20 - 00:38:52:08
Unknown
My worry was, well, what if people say, well, that's a bit pointless or that's doomed, or any version of that and just we really have seen the reverse just from people quite unexpected corners of the world, people engaging with this conversation, sharing their own experiences, sharing their openness to improve. And again, our research shows so clearly how much most people really want to improve these skills.
00:38:52:12 - 00:39:15:13
Unknown
it feels like it's such a great time to be working on this problem, because there is, to your point, like genuine sea change. If there was a headline about babysitting this week, we were talking about it earlier which said that numeracy and literacy classes were going to be given to under-fives. And when I saw that, I thought, amazing that people have recognized the importance of numeracy being offered.
00:39:15:13 - 00:39:21:21
Unknown
It feels like there is a really, really receptive audience, which is great. It gives me a lot of hope.
00:39:21:21 - 00:39:34:22
Unknown
We're delighted. And that's obviously yeah, we're really excited about the extension of the Everyday maths program and what we're going to be seeing in the terms ahead. So thank you so much for your support and for your time here this afternoon.
00:39:35:01 - 00:39:39:11
Unknown
Not at all. We are so excited to support babies and thank you for giving us the opportunity.
00:39:39:13 - 00:39:59:15
Unknown
What I'm taking from this conversation is Lizzie's optimism that numeracy and maths is becoming something that parents want to learn about, and that as a society, we're valuing more than ever. These are parents saying is an extraordinary how I have this opportunity to do maths and learn about numbers with my child.
00:39:59:16 - 00:40:20:16
Unknown
That's what we're trying to do at Baby Zone with every maths. Make it something where it's not teaching, it's not correct. Its opening a door showing a child that numbers are part of the world. They're already part of their curious about, and give the parent next to them the confidence to hold that door open themselves. When we're not necessarily there.
00:40:20:17 - 00:40:43:24
Unknown
There's anxiety that travels from one generation to the next. It can be learned and unlearned, and the earlier we start, the more chance we have of interrupting that cycle before it takes hold. If you remember one thing, it's number. Confidence doesn't start in a classroom. It starts in conversations, the games, the everyday moments that happen long before school, and adults who make those moments feel safe.
00:40:44:01 - 00:40:59:00
Unknown
Lizzie, thank you so much for joining me. And thank you for listening to. Best beginnings, A Baby's Own podcast, for more evidence and form support on babies in the early years, subscribe to this channel if you found this helpful. Share it with someone who might need it. We'll see you next
00:40:59:02 - 00:40:59:09
Unknown
We.