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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
I feel like the UX boot camps are they are lagging behind a few years, and it's not enough for the goals they have. And then coaching is, perhaps the perfect thing to get them back on track.
Tyler:That's fair. What are some of the things that you have to, to your point, I guess, unlearn? What are are there there themes around, like, the bad habits that they're being taught, or is it just because they're lagging behind and what they're teaching is has become old?
Nick:I think that that that final thing you you mentioned mainly also, I feel like most boot camps teach you to create a case study in a portfolio or portfolio website, and then you can really see. We are kind of live now. This is what I always wanted to say. We are live. And we're officially live.
Nick:We are officially live. Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:Hey, Nick. How are doing?
Nick:Hello. I'm doing well. Very busy, but I always will make time to talk to you and this show and help people and and that kind of stuff. How about yourself?
Tyler:I'm I'm with you. Yeah. Busy, spinning plates, like I mentioned before. So I'm working on a bunch of different things, but Yeah. Getting stuff done.
Nick:Yeah. Well, that's that's good to hear. You know, for me, a part of the business is noticing that more people are are coming in and asking for career help recently, probably because, you know, summer is behind us in this part of the world at least. Schools are starting again. So I feel like this is the moment where people are getting, you know, back into the career switching, job hunting, and getting hired, improving on the job, that kind of stuff.
Nick:So why not talk a bit about the coaching you do for people and the things you notice, and I'll jump in and do the same.
Tyler:Perfect. Yeah. I think I think to start off, I think coaching in general is the major unlock for for most people. It's the old analogy of you can't your golf swing doesn't get any better by just you being there alone. It takes a coach, something someone that's looking at you from a couple feet away to kinda see if your hands are in the right place, if you're swinging at the right speed, having a different perspective is is great to kind of level up in your career or it's like in your in your in whatever personal development realm that you're in.
Tyler:Yeah. And that's why I kind of got into it just by accident, started posting, and then people asking for help. And I saw the value in both helping people and also, like, the selfish nature. It makes me feel good to help others kind of navigate their path in their career.
Nick:I'm not sure there's anything selfish about that. I mean, you're helping people.
Tyler:Of course. Of course. And it's just something that I that I missed early in my career. I think I've talked about it before where two months into my first job, senior designer quit, left afloat on my own, and I wish I had that mentor earlier in my career. I could've I could've had a less bumpy ride, I guess.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. And what during the bumpy ride, it's a problem, but I also feel that at the end of the bumpy road, it's an advantage for you because you've had so many obstacles and challenges that you will be better compared to you having had a smooth ride all the way to that point.
Tyler:That's true. Yeah. So that's true. You get to see all the different bumps Mhmm. And then help you feel Yeah.
Tyler:Avoid those bumps in the future.
Nick:Yeah. But but I really understand that it doesn't feel that way. You know, for example, my second ever job, like, in in 2017 or something like that, I was the only designer at the whole company to I was too entry level, too junior to really handle it, turns out in the end. And it does feel like you're standing still. You know?
Nick:So I'm not sure if that's something you had as well during the bumpy ride, but I I did did did feel like wasted time.
Tyler:Yeah. I definitely did. I remember actually when I was my first job again, like, out of school, like, when the mentor my potential mentor left. I was trying to figure out what to do. Fresh out of school, worked at a ecommerce place, trying to figure out, like, how to implement the traditional design.
Tyler:What is art? Like, my background's traditional, like painting, drawing Yeah. A little bit of graphic design. How do you apply that to to, like, an e commerce site? Like, it's not about, again, making things look look pretty.
Tyler:It's about helping things convert to driving traffic, leads, etcetera, etcetera. I was struggling a bit, and then, it turns out the CEO time was actually considering letting me off at the time because I wasn't Wow. Get I wasn't getting it. I wasn't getting it. He told me later on.
Tyler:But eventually, something something clicked where I'm like, you know what? Every design that I keep pushing keeps getting pushed back. Let me just let me just design things how I think they should be versus me trying to copy what's already existing. Yeah. So essentially finding my own voice and ended up doing really well.
Tyler:And ended up being, like, the lead designer thereafter. But the CEO, which I I was good friends with, was like, I almost let you go. You're lucky I kept you. I'm like, yo. You're actually you're lucky that you kept me as well.
Tyler:So we had a good
Nick:Well, that's that's a power move. That that's really a a powerful response from you. Know? You're the lucky one.
Tyler:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's all in good chess, though.
Nick:Well, that well, that's that's good to hear. Like, it made me think of an experience I had when I was fresh out of school. I had a job interview, and I sat down with this was still in the in person time where you would go to an office.
Tyler:I mean, I
Nick:got in my mom's car, drove over to another city Yeah. And had a meeting with with with some sort of design lead or manager. And within three minutes, I was outside again, and the guy told me, you will never make it, is what he said. I'm like, woah. That's this this is me laughing, by the way.
Nick:I'm not I didn't have a sigh or a or a cry or anything. Mhmm. Because it's it's just really funny. And then years later, I drove by that same office building, and that company, it had a for sale sign in the window, like, you know, the for for the building itself, not for the company. So, you know, that was a good moment for me.
Nick:But that's something that happened. Like, you were not you're never gonna make it. I mean, that's a harsh thing to hear. And a bit of a mentorship or coaching at that moment would be would have been very useful because I sat in the car. I was like, what just did just happen?
Nick:You know? I was it was in and out the door in minutes. You know? I was in the waiting room longer than I was in the office.
Tyler:Well, we could chalk that we could chalk that up to be your, for going all Marvel y, your or your villain origin story that turned
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Turns you into the great designer that you are today. Yeah. Which is And that's Yeah. Which we can always turn negatives into positives, I think. Those kind of bumps in the road kind of shape who we are today.
Tyler:I'm curious. How has, like, your mentorship journey or meant being a mentor to other designers? How did that kinda start for you?
Nick:Well, I you know, the the the job I just mentioned where I was the only designer that was in a start up, my second ever job. So first hire, only designer, and all I learned in school was, you know, like like you have as well, like graphic design and a bit of psychology and interaction design, but nothing really, like, you what you call UX today or product design. So I was in over my head. I was just going by design gut feeling. And, you know, as a designer in a start up, you do everything.
Nick:Like, there's not really a job description because nobody knows anything. There's no process. You're all figuring it out as you go. One year later, these the company, you know, they they had to quit. Like, no investments and ran out of money, like your your typical startup story.
Nick:And I wrote an an article about it. Very clickbaity title, of course. It's called I failed as a designer at a startup. You know? That's
Tyler:Oh, that's a good
Nick:one. It yeah. It's it was in the Medium days, you know, when you would write on Medium, and you would make a few few dollars because they have, like, membership programs, you get a part of it. So nothing like not a lot of money, but for me, it was, like, for my scope, it was a viral article. Like, so instead of hundreds of views, it got thousands of views, which isn't, like, super viral, like, some mister beast type viral, but it's, you know, there's quite a quite a lot.
Nick:And comments came in like, hey, Nick. I'm deciding if I want to work in a start up, and your article really helped me make a decision, you know, because the article, you know, because of, you know, it it had a clickbaity title for sure. But the, you know, I wrote about things that happened and things I would do different the second time, you know, so it turns out to be quite informative for for some people. And, you know, so some people said, like, hey. Thank you.
Nick:This is helpful. And others said to me, like, hey. I'm still on the fence. Can we you know, do you have some time? Can you answer a few questions?
Nick:And then that turned into, you know, someone asking me to sit down with them for an hour, and that became mentorship and coaching. And I started for free and then started very cheap and then started a community, and that's how the whole, you know, designer turned teacher type side hustle that I have. That's how it all started.
Tyler:And do you remember that first that first session? Because imagine, like, transitioning from, like, doing things on your own, navigating being a being a designer or UX designer or whatever the name was back then
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:And then teaching what you know, must felt uncomfortable, or was it natural for you?
Nick:It's it was not natural, but also not new for for me because I you know, by the time I wrote it, I was on my third job in the first and the third job, so then the the current one at the time, I had I had interns, design interns. So I already knew a little bit about, you know, helping someone, you know, find their place in the company and and see what they struggle with and helping them, you know, strengthen their their weaker areas, that kind of thing. But the main the main challenge for me was, like, cultural differences. Like, you know, I'm I'm in The Netherlands. And when I say culture, I mean more like company culture.
Nick:We are very direct. So when someone struggles to get a foot through the door, like, have very Dutch things to say, like, just do it. Don't don't care. Just go. You know?
Nick:But that doesn't really work for someone where, like, politeness and indirectness is more, like, more common on the workforce. And so I had very local advice that where I wasn't sure if it was useful at all in basically any other place in the world.
Tyler:Yeah. I think we have that similar sentiment. My my mother is actually German, so I we have I have that kind of directness in the family as well. So things that work for me do not work for others, like you just mentioned. So some people need I don't know.
Tyler:A compliment sandwich is the right word, but a a less direct approach, which Yeah. Which is fair because everyone learns and and kind of progresses in different ways, and they they kind of receive feedback in their own little way. So Yeah. And it's it's interesting. It's I'd say it's probably there's not a one shoe fits all kind of deal.
Tyler:It's kind of like understanding who you're trying like, where they are today, understanding who they are and what their goals are Mhmm. And then how how to get them there.
Nick:Yeah. You know, the biggest difference the biggest difference, like, just as an extension to your your question, is that I I started with, you know, being kind of arrogant. Like, well, let's just sit down, and I'm just going to tell you what to do. You know? Going to tell you what how how things are done here.
Nick:But then then I found out that didn't work at all. And now, like, the big difference now is that I have more of a system in place. Like, you know, I have an intro call before a longer commitment. Like, let's talk about who you are. Is there a personal click?
Nick:Like, can we laugh together? Like, do things go, like, naturally well? Do we have a flow? But also more talking about, like, what are your goals? You know, I I had a a coaching call where someone in the end told me, like, well, this felt more like a portfolio review, but I still don't know this thing.
Nick:And I'm like, oh, yeah. You're right. Like, we we talked about that being goal. Well, let's let's extend for thirty minutes and tackle it still because, you know, an oversight on my part. You know?
Nick:So it's more about goal setting and listening and having systems. I think that's make all the difference for a, you know, an average or a good coach.
Tyler:That's good. That's good. That's interesting because I think you said something there, like, goal setting.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:How important is goal setting? I feel like that's maybe super important, like, having a goal in mind while you're coaching the individual.
Nick:Yeah. Well, yeah, it's it's it's crucial even. I think it's the most important thing because, you know, sometimes a the the person you're coaching has no goal or they don't know their goal or they have an over overly ambitious goal. Like, I'm in a new country, I want to have a job within three months, and I have no experience, no portfolio, and I don't know what to do. Well, then you maybe have to set some, you know, more realistic expectations for them.
Nick:You know? And it's also because coaching, you know, it's quite subjective. It's not really like like it's a zero or a one. It works or it doesn't. So when you say, like, let's coach for three months, like, it's good to have at the start to set a goal for in three months, and then you can reflect.
Nick:And then it's also a good fallback for yourself. Like, did we do a good job? Like, did we achieve that goal? Yes or no? Yeah.
Nick:So it's important for multiple reasons.
Tyler:Great. And then how do you in those kind of, let's say, you have that three months goal, do you have, like, a session that kind of like, hey. Here. Like, you kind of touched on it a bit, but it's like almost like a being in school and getting your report card. How well did we do?
Nick:Well, it is more more to have guardrails during the collaboration. So my my first session is always free. You know? It's just, like, let's just see if I don't like the word, but let's see if we vibe together. You know?
Nick:Mhmm. Let's see if we we worked well together. That that meeting always it helps me understand you as the person that wants coaching in multiple directions. Like, does that person like me? Do I like that person?
Nick:But also, do I think I can help the person? Like, maybe a person wants to go, like, full time employment in a different country, but I'm a freelancer in my own country, you know? So then I'm like, well, maybe maybe I'm not the right coach, and I want to be honest about that. I'm not just a money grabber that way. So that's that's what we learn in that meeting.
Nick:It usually has, like, one or two, like, pointers already. And then the next step is what I call the UX super brainstorm. You know, it's talking about, like, being marvelly. You know, it has a name. It's a ninety minute workshop where we just do brainstorming together in a FIC jam board, and it has the value for them is that they get go from stuck to unstuck.
Nick:Like, they know what to do. And then they also know what my involvement potentially could be. And that's also the moment where we set goals, you know, and then the person can say yes or no for, like, yes. Let's work together for x amount of months or no. I'm going to try on my own first and then see what happens.
Nick:So that's already where we set the goals. And then what I do, like, every meeting, I just just do a little reflection moment. Like, hey. These are the goals. Are they still relevant?
Nick:Yes or no? What's the progress? Do we need to pivot or adjust something? Just to, you know, double check we're we're still on track, basically.
Tyler:I'm curious. I found this. I'm curious if it's the same for you during your coaching sessions. I feel like half the battle is coaching them to be the person they want to be, so it's more like the psychological part. So it's less of the old the old statement.
Tyler:Give someone a fish. They eat for a day. Teach someone to fish. They eat for a lifetime. But I feel like for coaching, it's teach them to be the person to catch the fish.
Tyler:So it's kind of one layer removed. So, like, if you wanna be a senior, you wanna be these are your goals. I we have to coach them to be that person that can can do these different things or achieve that goal rather than teaching them the skills to get them there. It's Mhmm. I feel like if you teach them to become the person in the psychological sense, the the other pieces come together.
Tyler:They can figure it out on their own. So it's more of like a a mind frame. I'm curious if that's at all as part of your strategy as well.
Nick:I think so. So but what I think or how I translate what you're saying is that what I know it's at least is a they people are tired because of the constant rejection. Mhmm. They lack a bit of confidence. They just don't know what to do.
Nick:So if you help them, if you give them a push into the right direction, then they feel more confident. And they can also check with me, like, hey. You are an actual designer doing an actual job, like this thing I read in this boot camp. Is it true? Yes or no?
Nick:What do you think? Mhmm. So if that's what you mean, then yes. If not, please elaborate, you know, maybe with an example or two from your
Tyler:your experience. I guess a simple analogy is if you're a junior designer and your goal is to be a senior designer, you have to become or do the things that a senior designer does to then get promoted to become a senior designer. So you have to become it's not like you you're you're junior and then this magical, hey. Ta da. You're a senior designer.
Tyler:You have to become Yeah. You have to become in mindset and also in skill set. Do all the things that a senior designer does. Yeah. But it starts with the mindset first.
Tyler:Like, I'm a senior designer. What are the things that I lack to become the official
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:Crowned senior designer?
Nick:Yeah. It's not just experience. Like, it's not like you like, the day you hit, like, four years of experience. Ding. Congratulations.
Nick:You're a senior. That's not not the case. But, yeah, that's that's true. Like, it's a bit of hand holding, and and, like, they can they're in the forest, and they can go left, middle, right, and and far or or zigzag. Like, they can do so many things, and then they're confused.
Nick:And you're the the Yoda in the forest that will, you know, the the wise elderly one that will guide them into the and steer them into the right direction. That's that's how it feels to me. But, also, there's also still, like, a bit of hard skill or, let's say, deliverable work. Like, yes, I agree with you. Majority is becoming a certain type of person, but there's also, like, a good 40% of the time for me at least that we spend on cleaning up the portfolio, LinkedIn profile, that kind of stuff.
Tyler:Okay. And are there patterns or, like, maybe different persona or different buckets that you would kinda place mentees in? Like, are you seeing, like, patterns around the type of things junior designers or or or designers that you mentor that are looking to upscale in these specific areas?
Nick:It's I think for me, it's more about certain situation they're in. I currently just to to show you my playing field, I I currently have two coaching clients, which is which is which is about the average. Like, I I always have between one and four, I guess, one and three meetings scheduled at any given given time. Both of them are non Dutch people trying living already in The Netherlands because of, like, a partner has work here and travels there, they have to be here as well, or just being relocated in full here, and they want to work in The Netherlands specifically. And they come to me because I'm an experienced person within the markets they try to enter.
Nick:You know? So that that's one. And then the second one is more of a career switcher in general. Okay. I've done Okay.
Nick:Five years of marketing work. I've been kind of exhausted with it lately, and I have a UX designer at a client, and it sounds very interesting. Can you help me, you know, do that job as well? Get hired and learn and that kind of stuff. So those are the two main groups that I have had, let's say, in 2025, so the last few months.
Tyler:Okay. Question might be a sing or might be singing your praises, but we've talked about the rise of boot camps and how Yeah. Some of them feel like they under deliver in terms of what they offer, what they're teaching.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:Your one on one mentorship, you find that it's better than a boot camp? And I'm I'm leading I'm leading with an answer that I I probably I probably know answer.
Nick:Like, I'm I'm correcting or fixing it, I think is a better word. I feel like UX boot camps are they are lagging behind a few years, and it's not enough for the goals they have. And then coaching is perhaps the perfect thing to get them back on track.
Tyler:That's fair. What are some of the things that that you have to to your point, I guess, unlearn? What are is all that are there themes around, like, the bad habits that they're being taught, or is it just because they're lagging behind and what they're teaching is has become old?
Nick:I think that that that final thing you you mentioned mainly. Also, I feel like most boot camps teach you to create a case study and a portfolio or portfolio website, and then you can really see when you go to the website, like, yes. This is a portfolio made according to boot camp rules. And there's no blame or shame in that because, you know, that's just people are, like, entry level. They learn.
Nick:They go to a place, and then they do the things that they have learned. So that makes perfect sense. But then they run into the issue of, well, I'm not getting hired. I'm not getting any callbacks. So that's because companies can choose from hundreds of people with the same boot camp style portfolio.
Nick:So that's a big one, you know, redoing the portfolio, and that's mostly taking away things. Like, it's it's too big, and I think that's also because of insecurity. For me, it was insecurity. Like, I have had, like, impostor syndrome. Like like, I still have sometimes.
Nick:I think we all have have it at times. And then my coping mechanism was to be extremely thorough. You know, let's just have a a 20 page case study. Everything's tackled. You know, look at look how smart I am.
Nick:You know? Yep. And I feel like that's something that happens on on, you know, boot camp portfolios as well. So so that's a big one. And then the new thing is networking, like how to approach people, how to build your network, how to find different ways to get hired rather than just, you know, applying on LinkedIn or Indeed or one of the big websites.
Nick:Because I think that's almost never learned in a boot camp because it's hard to learn in a boot camp. You know, how, you know, teaching a soft skill in theory is, I think, very challenging. Something you learn by doing, but then there, I feel like there's no guideline at all in boot camps. It's like it's just like, here's design thinking. Here's how you do step one.
Nick:Here's how you do step two. Here's how you do a portfolio. And then that's that. Well and then people go out and they graduate, and then they're like, okay. And now what?
Nick:You know?
Tyler:Yeah. I think
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Networking is under like, I think it's super important. Earlier on, I I didn't I had no idea. I was like, I think we're all thinking if I can get my Photoshop or Figma design, like, to the max of a if my Mhmm. Nine out of 10 from my six out of 10, then that's how I progress in my career. Yeah.
Tyler:Rather than I think if you're six out of 10 designer and you're nine out of 10 networking or, like, you've built that circle. So, like, you're you're going to events. You're we're talking to people on LinkedIn. You're Mhmm. It's like the old saying, your your your net worth is your network.
Tyler:So it's like connecting with others can facilitate you getting more work. Yeah. At the
Nick:end of
Tyler:the day, we're we're hiring or you're you're giving jobs to people to the people, not just the portfolio itself. Yeah. That's why one of the under undervalued pieces of your portfolio is probably your about page. Like, who are
Nick:we
Tyler:who are we hiring? Who's the individual that we're we're gonna be hiring? Can I stand or will I enjoy to put a more positive spin on who can I stand working with every day? It's more of who would I enjoy or love working on a day to day basis because I'm I'm not working with your portfolio and and how you design them. True.
Tyler:I'm working with you as the individual.
Nick:1100%. And, you know, back in the day when I I was still applying for, like, in house full time positions, I always included a joke in my cover letter. And, like, I don't have scientific proof, but the thing I can say is that I've had multiple times where I was at a job interview, and within the first five minutes, they referenced the joke Yep. From the cover letter. So so it makes you so much more human, you know, the sense of humor, having that about page.
Nick:And and that's you know, I didn't say it before, but you are right. Like, that's something that I think is is missing in a lot of portfolios. So and it's one of the first things I mentioned in any coaching call. Like, here's what I would do for for an about page. Here's what there should be.
Nick:Like, these five, and you only have the first or the second one. You know? It's time to draft the rest as well, and then we will do a review later.
Tyler:Yeah. I think yeah. Because the personality goes a long way. And that in your about, it probably, like, in the copy that you write for your case studies. It just this is what separates.
Tyler:I think most portfolios, as much as we try to make things unique, they set they tend to follow a certain format because there's particular things that we need to include to to convey or, like, to to communicate to the hiring manager that we have these we have, like, the standard. We have a design process. We have we're showing metrics, the intro, who we collaborated with. They all kind of look homogenous, but what what is just one of the differentiators is, like, that about page, like, you are as the individual.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I I always felt like if if you make it to an interview, then it's like, once you get then you have done the hard part.
Nick:Like, it's super hard to stand out when you're a PDF in a folder with 100 PDFs. But once you shake someone's hand, look them in the face and sit down with them, or virtually how you position yourself, like, do you sit up straight and that kinda kinda stuff, like, then it's all about you, then it's a performance. So, yeah, that I I think that's really true, and the and the about page helps a lot. What also helps is the hero section of your main landing page. I think for 100% of my coaching calls and also for Bootcamp portfolios, the hero section is too long.
Nick:You know? It's it's three paragraphs of, you know, Bootcamp task, you know, generic info. Well, I think it should be one or two lines and then visuals.
Tyler:And what what should, like, those two lines be? Because I've seen I've seen very often where it's I see it's like, hi. I'm Mhmm. I'm Jeremy. Hi.
Tyler:I'm Susie. Like, I do UX stuff. It's quite generic. Any tips on on how to craft a compelling hero?
Nick:Oh, yes. For sure. And and this is something where you can this is something you can spend an entire session on, perhaps even two, just to get it right. And then one disclaimer, first of all, is that, you know, for an entry level designer, they might not know what that paragraph should be yet because they haven't had the opportunity to try out different things. But in theory, I'm by the way, I'm fine with the hello.
Nick:I'm name, you know, as long as you keep it small. Like, it's it's good to introduce yourself. But it's two lines. The first line is your role with something specific. You know?
Nick:Product designer. Okay. But maybe you're a product designer in finance or a design product design developer hybrid. You know? Let's see if you can add something specific to it, and then the thing you do.
Nick:And the thing you do can be a list of industries. You know, maybe you are a copywriter turned product designer for web three and finance, for example. I mean, that's already narrows it down. But if you can go even more extreme, like one thing I worked on with someone recently, like one of those two people, she's all of us. Yeah.
Nick:She has a background in data visualization, working a lot with, like, museum history type stuff. Like, how can you take all the pages of of research and turn it into something that someone will enjoy when visiting a museum or an infographic. You know? So I think and I'm doing this by by head now. I I might I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but it's, hello.
Nick:I'm Name. I'm a data driven designer who turns multi source complex data into design people understand, period. I think that's a very strong headline. You know? But, you know, keep in mind that I might paraphrase it a little bit, but, you know, that's one and a half sentence, then you're done.
Nick:And then all you need on the page is something visual to make it a bit more interesting, And then all the other stuff that you want to talk about that normally is in your hero section according to Bootcamp, that can be the intro to the section about you with link to more about me on a separate page. You know? So, yeah, you know, I'll pause there because otherwise, it will be a monologue where I will just rant about portfolios, and I don't think that's the episode for today.
Tyler:No. But it I mean, to your point, it's very important. And I just something similar. Like, I take a session specifically for that line similar to you. Like, what do I do?
Tyler:What industry? The more specific, the better. One thing that I'm suggesting to some some, like, mentees, if you wanna get extreme about it, which this might be a hack for the current situation. Like, currently, I think the industry is over oversaturated. So we have little jobs, many, many designers.
Tyler:So and the more niche your title is and tailored to the specific company, the better. Yeah. I think taking a page out of, like, the old school landing page playbook where, I don't know if you remember, we used to do, like, different variations of a landing page. And Mhmm. You would drive people depending on the the persona that you're targeting.
Tyler:You could probably add have different heroes depending on who you're sending your your application to. So it could
Nick:be
Tyler:that that you're a Swiss army knife. You're a generalist. You don't really care what industry you work in, whether it's finance, whether it's ecommerce, whether it's health tech, etcetera. You can probably just add an attribute to the end of the URL, and then that'll change the actual the line. So instead of Yep.
Tyler:Fintech designer that takes complex problems in terms into delightful solutions, it'll be health tech designer or ecommerce designer or clothing brand designer, whatever it is. Because I think the more niche like, the more the hiring manager sees, like, oh, I'm I work at a I work at this company. I want a designer that does fintech. Oh, this person does exactly what I want. Perfect.
Tyler:You've passed the first stage, and then I'm going into your case study.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I I think that's 100% correct. And then that's also the challenge, you know, because an entry level designer does not have any, like, industry specific experience yet.
Nick:And or even when you're an entry level designer with one project under their belts, like, it's you don't know if you want to keep doing that current industry. Like, maybe it's smart to do different things and see if you like it better. Like, I think that's one of the things also I learned from UX coaching is that you really have to look at things from the position of the job hunting entry level designer who's a bit scared. Like, you know, we we have it easy. Like, we you know, you and I together, we have a quarter of a century of experience, you know, just to make us sound really old.
Nick:No. You and I, we both have 10 plus just to make it more There you go. More normal sounding. Anyway but for for us, it's very easy. Like, we've been everywhere.
Nick:You know? If if you ask them, like, have you done finance? Yes. Government, of course. Sports, high-tech, retail.
Nick:Like, I've been I've been everywhere. It's like the old Johnny Cash song. Like, I've been everywhere. But it's then easy to give someone in a different position advice that's just, like, anecdotal, something that worked for you. But, yeah, you really have to zoom out and and and go away from your own biases and and position of luck to to to to step into their shoes, which is a whole different world.
Tyler:You touched on something there about, like because we have we've worked on all these different things. Would you suggest to maybe a junior designer to work at an agency? The benefit being that you generally work on a variety of different projects, and you get a chance to fill up your portfolio with a variety of different things or actually, to your point, just figure out what you like.
Nick:I think if you look at all the different places I've been, I think the the most beneficial, although I didn't leave in in in the best of ways, but the most beneficial for my career has been consultancy, which you can you can replace that with an agency because it's more or less the same in the sense that you work at a company, but that company has clients, and you are sent out to do things at the or for their clients. Yep. Instead of, you know, working in a startup where the startup is your clients. All you're working on is the startup. Because I've spent six years at the consultancy, and I think I've been in, like, in total in, like, 10 different projects.
Nick:Some of them being a year long, some of them being only a month long. I've been, like, you know, in the North Northern side of the country, country, working with the army, doing something for a retailer, something in food, something in sports. Like, I've all different company cultures, company sizes, and types, and you take something with you everywhere you go. Oh, they work on their process this way. In this new place I met, they do things slightly different.
Nick:Oh, I wonder what's best. Let's compare. You know? The I think that's very useful. So, yes, agency.
Nick:And if you can work in a team, don't become the first and or only designer Yeah. At a company when you are new to the field. I think it's it's extremely valuable if you have someone a few steps ahead of you in their careers, literally ahead of you, that can shield you and coach you and guide you around pitfalls and and and just to share experience.
Tyler:Yeah. I think that's super important. I think if you can model or you see someone in a position, you have some kind of reference point versus swimming alone, not knowing where up is. So, like, we we all wanna progress in our careers. So, like, what is what does that look like?
Tyler:And it doesn't mean exactly that you're gonna replicate exactly what this person does. You're kind of taking bites and pieces from different people, and you become your unique designer that you are Yeah. As you progress. But if you have a reference point, what is a senior designer? What is a design manager?
Tyler:What does a design leader look like?
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Because it it could feel quite lonesome, I imagine, or I know if you're the the solo designer at a company.
Nick:Yeah. You lose a bit of your design nature because the only influences you have around you are, like, technical people, engineers, marketers, founders, and they have they value different things compared to a designer. So I noticed that in the startup days, when I was the only designer, I was very, like, developer focused. Like, what do they need? How can we make sure they are happy?
Nick:And I I really noticed I lost a bit of creativity there that I really need to get back once I had to leave the the startup. You know? And that came back because I came into after I came into a team of, like, I think, like, 20 or 30 designers very in large company, and the whole vibe was different over there. You know, it's much more about let's have a brainstorm. You know?
Nick:And the brains the brainstorm was extinct in the in the start ups. Let's just survive and do things, and we'll see later. You know? So, yeah, agency plus team, if you can, I think that's the perfect place to grow as an entry level designer?
Tyler:Yeah. I agree. The caveat there is that well, I mean, you can go if if that's your thing at least for me, my personal preference is that you start there, but don't end there. Mhmm. Because you should find your there's things or or projects that you kind of graduate towards, and, like, you wanna do more of that thing.
Tyler:And the thing about agencies sometimes that you're kind of you're sometimes disconnected from the outcome. So, like, you kind of you're you're working in an agency, you're working in client projects, and you're kind of handing it over. Mhmm. And then it's you don't know what happens to it. The benefit of working for one particular company is to see the the fruits of your labor.
Tyler:How well did this thing do versus an agency style? It's very onto the next project.
Nick:Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's true. Also, because the agency is always about just finish the job. We get paid.
Nick:We move on to the next one. Like, the feeling of being rushed might also be part of it, and I don't think that's always healthy for yourself, but also if you look at it from a I want to learn perspective. Mhmm. You know what? I I always had to I always had to fight this battle of, you know, give me time so I can help my my intern.
Nick:Give me time to I want one or two hours a week that I can just sit down and do things the wrong way or or slower than usual on purpose just so that my intern or junior designer can shadow me, and I have time to explain that to them why I do certain things this way. But that's a hard sell in my experience. In a in an agency, it's always like, no. No. No.
Nick:It's all about, like, billable hours are king. And you taking your time coaching someone, that's not a billable hour. That's a wasted hour is what they will say. And that in part is also one of the reasons why I, you know, want to do some coaching because I like sitting down with someone and really trying to help them and and, you know, digest certain things like, why do we do this thing? Because they ask me questions that make me think.
Nick:You know? Because I do a thing I do things a bit on autopilot by now. You know? It's good to have fresh perspective. So I learn from the people I coach, which is quite interesting.
Nick:Like, they learn from me, but I also learn from them.
Tyler:That's true. Like, can you expand upon that? Because I imagine I've always heard that if you really wanna learn something, if you distill it or teach it to someone else, you understand it better.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. True. Well, it's also when I do something on my own, you memorize things. So when something isn't really according to, like, what's quote unquote best practice, but you have a workaround, then you just leave that workaround in because you're the one working on this.
Nick:And it's fine because you memorize it. But then when someone else comes in and then they ask you, like, why well, why did you do this thing? Well, then you have to explain it to them, and then you are the silly person. Well, because, well, I don't know. I was just in a rush.
Nick:Then, you know, I really have to think about it. Yeah. I mean, I I think that's that's a big one. I I, you know, I have someone who's going to shadow me next week, and they already have sent over questions, but I I don't know them. I haven't memorized them.
Nick:So I I can look them up, but that will slow down our conversation too much. So I'll tell you later. Okay. How about how about yourself? I mean, you know, I'm I'm telling you a lot of things about how it's for me.
Nick:Like, I have a whole system, like free meeting, super brainstorm, optional longer collaboration. But, like, what do you do? Like, do you does does do you make money from it, or is it like volunteering work or on the job? Like, I'm curious about your, like, coaching business.
Tyler:Yep. So I do I do free mentorship at the moment. So I I have I do maybe two or three per month max. So we'd like it's once a week for either a month or two. Maybe similar structure to you.
Tyler:So it's one it's like a kickoff call just understanding high level. Yeah. And then I'll kind of guide you through just understanding their goals so we can kind of see what winning is or what success is. I generally have two different buckets. So it's trying to get a job or trying to get or career progression.
Tyler:Those are the kind of the the two buckets that they people generally fall under. So success for the first is getting your your job, and then a second is either getting a promotion or finding a higher position somewhere else. Right. But it generally starts first session is purse I call it personal branding. So who are you and what and who do you wanna kind of show the world you are as a designer?
Tyler:And that shows up
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Like that hero section of your CV, your your case studies as well. Like, I'm this type of person that solve these types of problems. That has to be well communicated throughout all the collateral that you have. Yeah. So, like, I'm a I'm a stickler for, like, how you write copywriting for all those different collateral pieces.
Tyler:And then it's it's mindset like just done before. So it's like turning you into the person that can do all these things based on, like, the goals that you want to achieve. I think that's the major lift. Some people are blocked. I think a lot of people are blocked.
Tyler:It's just like they're stuck in their way, and they need to kind of a reset. It's like, okay. Who am I? I've done these things. What am I really good at?
Tyler:And some people just they don't know. They're just like, I'm a designer, full stop. Yeah. Like, okay. Well, there's there's more to that.
Tyler:Like, what what are you good at? What do you hate doing? What do it's also like, what do you wanna do less of? What are the areas that you want to improve in? And then we'll kind of create a plan for that month or two.
Nick:Alright. So yeah. So that's very interesting. Very similar, I think, to to what I'm doing. Do have have you ever said, like, no to to a coaching person?
Nick:Like, no. I I'm sorry. I can't help you or I can't help you anymore?
Tyler:Not any well, not anymore means, like, we've I've got you to that that place. Mhmm. But, generally, I haven't said no yet. Sometimes it wasn't a good fit, so we don't move forward. So, like, it'll either move forward or it'll stop at the initial screening call.
Tyler:It's like, yeah, do you need my help? Can I help you get to where you need to be? Yes or no. If it's a yes, we can move forward.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Yeah. Just generally how it goes.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I've seen similar. But then the interesting thing is that you do it for free and that I I ask money for it. I think that's a very interesting difference.
Nick:I'm not sure I'm not sure why. I mean, why would I mean I mean, I'm not sure what I'm where I'm going with this, you know, with you doing it for free. I'm doing it paid. Any any gut feeling there? Why is that?
Tyler:Yeah. So I I think for
Nick:me Why wouldn't you ask money for your experience and expertise?
Tyler:I think I will. I think now I'm offering for free for a limited time offer to get all marketing and sales y. But I would like.
Nick:Yeah. Order today.
Tyler:Order today. Like in anything, do do work for free and eventually charge for it. I think my goal at my initial goal is really just to see a variety of different people so, like, I can have that pattern recognition, which I think I've seen. I think I've kind of classified these different personas, so I think I can help the core two personas that I'm that I'm tackling. Mhmm.
Tyler:And eventually, I'll start charging it charging for it. Of course.
Nick:Of course.
Tyler:I'll run out of time if I'm if I get giving it away for free. And also Yeah. That's true. To be fair, like, if you pay for something, you're gonna pay attention. So That's true.
Tyler:The down
Nick:That's true.
Tyler:Downside of of doing it for free is that the the mentee might not not saying that that's the case, but it could be the case that the they don't take it super seriously. I find that sometimes doing it for free is good, but eventually, I'll be charging because I was Yeah. I always like to say, if you pay for something, you you pay attention. So you have a skin in the game.
Nick:Yeah. Oh, yeah. 100. That that's that's absolutely true. I I, you know, I think I I did a few free meetings as well, but then you also have people not showing up, for example.
Nick:So, yeah, I I think that's also the the one of the reasons I did it. And it's not for me. I'm not doing this because I want to get rich from it. You know, it's a side income at best, But I I do think, you know, time someone's time is is valuable. Every now and then, I I I do give discounts or sometimes I do a free meeting.
Nick:Like, for example, recently someone reached out to me that they were a still a student. You know? I'm not going to ask them a super high premium as someone who's still in school. And someone from from India asked me last yesterday yesterday, I think. So then I I really adjust to, like, the economic situation of the country the person was in.
Nick:You know? So I'm I'm not an evil corporate coach, so I'm trying to be somewhere like middle ground. Yeah. And it's it's a lot of fun to do, especially if that person is really, like, happy and then they send over a message like, hey. I I got a job interview.
Nick:And and just seeing them grow and be happy with their progress instead of how they came to you, you know, more they came to me in a, like, you know, demotivated, sad, insecure. Like, the difference with that moment and the, hey. Yes. I got a job interview. That that moment is is highly motivating for me as a coach.
Tyler:Yes. Because you've you've you've you're serving them. Right? So, like, that's the success. It's it's less about well, it's it's success on both ends, making sure that they get and then also, like, to validate.
Tyler:I actually got them to to their final destination. Yes. Or or a pit stop on the journey till their to whatever their final destination continues to evolve to.
Nick:Of course. Yes. Well, of course. You know, you're building them up with the confidence and that you're teaching them how to fish. So what you said in the beginning, you know, and then it's like you you're the the mama bird who who are who's feeding, like, the little chicklets in a nest, and then then you kick them out of the nest.
Nick:And then you look down, and then they're flying, and then you're a proud parent. You know? Mhmm. Strange metaphor, but it's it's probably probably true.
Tyler:It should be then the name of your coaching program, the mama bird coaching program. Yeah. Nick's mama bird coaching program.
Nick:Yeah. Well, someone called me a UX therapist once, and I worked using that name for a while, but then I also felt like an impostor, and I felt like a legal risk because I'm not a therapist. Like, I don't have a license. I haven't been screened. Like, over here, I'm not sure how it is in Canada, but you cannot just become a therapist over here.
Nick:You have to be you have to do all sorts of checks and education. So I retired the UX therapist label for my my coaching. I just remember the compliment now.
Tyler:Well yeah. Well, I think that's I think it's a major part of it. The psychology the the unlicensed psychology of UX design, I think, is is also an important part.
Nick:Yeah. It's it's you know, what what do they say about financial advice where you have to say, like, this is not financial advice to your own research. That's something I would probably have to say as well. Like, this is no official therapy medical advice. Do your own research.
Nick:I'm just a guy. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Well, I mean, this this has been great, right, talking about our experience as coaches and the common pitfalls and things things people, you know, hopefully find it useful about coaching.
Nick:Anything else about about coaching you want to say, or or should we tease the, I think, the somewhat aligned topic of of the next episode?
Tyler:Yeah. I think I think I wanna have you selfishly plug your coaching where we can and and mine as well, see where we can both, where everyone can find us. And I was doing some mental math while we're speaking. I'm actually speaking of free coaching. I'll be stopping my free coaching as of November 28, which might be around where this episode gets gets released.
Nick:Yeah. More or less.
Tyler:More or less. Maybe you might have two weeks grace period, so get on now. But you can you can reach out to me on LinkedIn or at SassifyOS dot com. Yep. There's a book a call link there for some free coaching sessions for the next two weeks until it's paid until it's paid.
Tyler:How about you?
Nick:It's a highly specific date, November 28.
Tyler:Boxing Day.
Nick:Boxing Day, of course. Of course. Well, our Boxing Day is later, but we're a different part of the world. Yeah. Maybe people can give you a coaching gift.
Nick:Like, hey. Here's a coupon for a free titer sesh.
Tyler:There you go. Yeah. I'm gonna call it my mama bird discount.
Nick:Yeah. Good one. I mean, that that you can really see, like, we're so we have to think in in the visual ways and and metaphors and that kinda stuff. For me, it's also LinkedIn. Just send me a message over there, and and that's mainly because my coaching and design content website is is very outdated.
Nick:And currently, in my local environment under construction to be relaunched, so I don't have a link to send you towards. Maybe when this gets out, but I don't want to put myself under too much pressure there because I have I have lots to do. It's it's an evening project for me just to get that website up and running again. So, yeah, LinkedIn. Probably linked in the description.
Nick:I mean, we have a a get to know Tyler and Nick link there. Yeah. You know, speaking of descriptions, you know, I think also good moment to mention that, you know, you can really help us by leaving a review in Spotify, Apple Music, like all the big players, and, you know, liking this video, subscribing, or leaving a comment with questions you have because then that will expand our reach and our you know, our us growing the the show. And by doing so, you will help more people, get some coaching help, and hopefully a new job or a better job. So let's help each other.
Nick:What I want to say.
Tyler:Couldn't have said it better myself.
Nick:Oh, nice. Thanks for that. Did did we did we did we mention what we're going to do in the next episode, or did we only We we did only
Tyler:tease it. So in the next episode, we're gonna be talking about how education gives, I guess, unrealistic expectation of what Yeah. UX is all about. And more specifically, that UX is only about helping people. Mhmm.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:So we're Yeah.
Tyler:Might be doing some myth busting there.
Nick:Yep. Just like last episode. You know, the clickbaity working title, because that's what they do. Right? They give in progress stuff a working title.
Nick:Like, our working title of this episode is how UX education gets it wrong. Dot dot dot. Silence. You know? And we're going to shed some light on it and help you avoid all those pitfalls, hopefully, or get you back on track.
Nick:We'll put more on that later.
Tyler:That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.