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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00]
[00:00:00] Sonia: Welcome to Sisters in Sobriety, and today we're excited to have Megan Gluth Bohan join [00:01:00] us. And she is the CEO and owner of Catalan Solutions, a raw material and chemical services provider. She's made a name for herself by combining high business standards with a compassionate approach to leadership. But what truly sets her apart is her personal journey, including her path to sobriety, which has deeply influenced how she leads and cares for her team.
[00:01:21] Sonia: Welcome
[00:01:21] Kathleen: Megan believes that self care is essential for staying resilient, clear headed and making sound decisions. And she's all about leading with authenticity, being honest and transparent to build trust and accountability with her teams. Megan also emphasizes the importance of tuning into your intuition.
[00:01:37] Kathleen: I'm a big fan of that and taking time for reflection and meditation to manage emotions and keep things balanced.
[00:01:46] Sonia: So today we're gonna not just focus on Megan's impressive career, but we'll also dive into her personal growth, especially as a high functioning woman who has faced challenges with alcohol and the tricky dynamics of people [00:02:00] pleasing. Hi, Megan.
[00:02:02] Meg: Hey there.
[00:02:04] Sonia: So can you bring us back to the beginning of your career and what initially drew you into business?
[00:02:11] Meg: Sure, sure. I started, um, at this company, actually, when it was named differently. I've since purchased the company and rebranded it, but I started at the company. I was the company's first lawyer and so I had a very, um, initially a very advisory role and a sort of hands on experience. At a distance kind of role with the company, but I quickly began to, uh, love the business and to love the people in the business.
[00:02:37] Meg: And so I was, um, promoted to leadership of the company at an executive level, relatively quickly. Frankly, I had a pretty quick trajectory in my career. Um, and in 2018, I became the company's, chief executive officer. And in 2019, I bought a majority of the company from the founder. And in 2020, I bought the [00:03:00] remainder of the company and there's a lot of story behind that.
[00:03:03] Meg: But ultimately, it was a pretty quick journey to how this happened. Um, and I sit here now today when I bought the company, it was, we did about 48 million dollars a year in revenue and, currently we do about 120. So
[00:03:16] Kathleen: Woo hoo. Congratulations.
[00:03:19] Meg: thank you. It's been a very rapid ascent, and a very rapid decline, Season of growth, which is exciting and also, um, challenging, I guess, in its own way.
[00:03:29] Kathleen: So, Megan, how did your personal struggles, including with alcohol, impact your journey to get to where you are now in business?
[00:03:38] Meg: Well, I, I think that's such a huge question. Um, when I started at this company,I was doing what they say not to do in AA, like, don't move, don't change geography, don't do any of that stuff. And for me, I, I had gotten sober, had my last drink in October of 2011, and, felt very,Strongly that if I were to stay [00:04:00] where I was, when I got sober, I wouldn't be able to remain sober.
[00:04:03] Meg: So after about 4 months, I moved, I did relocate, to the Seattle area. I had family here who had really long term by that time, 25 years, each of sobriety in the program. And I felt like being near them and living by them and being in that community would be really good for me. And ultimately it really was.
[00:04:19] Meg: And so when I started at this company, I started and then just like days later, got my 6 month coin. And so it's been really neat to see how that journey parallels my career, but also, as you know, the, the process of becoming sober doesn't happen right away when you stop drinking, I've become sober, I've become evolved, I've become an executive, I've become all of those things really running in, in parallel and in tandem, frankly, together.
[00:04:47] Meg: And so there's not an easy way to answer that question, but it's, it is a. It has a daily impact in the way that I live and move in the world.
[00:04:56] Sonia: And so I feel like the idea of [00:05:00] being high functioning is so important to, I was super high functioning. I started my business, scaled it, sold it all while I was really nurturing this alcohol problem. And I think what's scary is that there, there really was no rock bottom for me. And I was almost scared to upset the balance because the alcohol was like working right for anxiety and to sleep.
[00:05:23] Sonia: And so I do remember The months, leading up to thinking I have a problem, I need to quit. But what was yours like? What point did you realize you were having issues with alcohol?
[00:05:33] Meg: Well, first of all, I want to say That it's interesting that you speak that because, high functioning alcoholism, I don't even know if that's a thing. Here's what I can say, in business in particular, and you know this, like, alcohol and business go together like peanut butter and jelly. Alcohol is the one drug that it's almost unacceptable not to do.
[00:05:54] Meg: In business, like, there's an irony there. if you go to a cocktail party, and you're the only person not drinking in a, in a [00:06:00] business setting, like other people become visibly uncomfortable. And that's like a different conversation for a different day. But it's very interesting to me. I wonder sometimes, like, how many of us actually do.
[00:06:08] Meg: Is it high functioning alcoholism or is it just alcoholism in a super high functioning place? I don't really know, to be honest, if any of us were truly happy, but similar to you, like, I didn't have, like, these rock bottom moments where I was Not going to work or I was going to work drunk and not doing the right thing and I didn't do that actually actually I Was a very very good employee.
[00:06:32] Meg: I was a very good. Um, I was an attorney at that time. It was a very good attorney I wasn't drinking on the job. I wasn't drinking in the morning before work I wasn't like none of that was happening And so it was really hard for me to look at the situation and go this is bad I should stop based on traditional metrics And in fact, um, again, another separate podcast, but like in the practice of law, alcohol is very prevalent as part of, that's just what you do.
[00:06:57] Meg: Like, that's how you meet clients. That's how you do this. So, [00:07:00] so it wasn't really a problem. I guess the, the problem was internal. I always tell people this story because it's like, it just articulates it and it seems silly, but I love a farmer's market. I just think they're great. The farmer's markets always happen on Saturday mornings or, or like some weekend morning.
[00:07:18] Sonia: And so I was a farmer's market person. I love the farmer's market. There's, I wanted to be, I want my house to smell like patchouli and shit. You know what I mean? Like, and every Saturday morning, I'm not making it to the farmer's market. Because I am hungover or I am just in whatever state of like, can't go to the farmer's market, like laziness induced by alcohol. And that disconnect between this woman that I want to be and this woman that I think I am, and who I really am, and how I'm showing up in the world, is something as simple as whether I'm at the farmer's market or not. Like that dissonance. Dissonance [00:08:00] those things inside myself became unbearable and I began to hate who I was not because of these outward Problems, but because I didn't like myself I wasn't living into the woman that I wanted to be and that caused me unmanageability Had that farmer's market moment myself. I would look at the farmers, market, and I was like, that's who I want to be. I want to be that person who goes on Sundays to the farmer's market and preps for the whole week. Instead I was. hung over on Sundays and then usually, you know, drunk again by brunch.
[00:08:34] Sonia: So, yeah.
[00:08:36] Kathleen: So you mentioned the farmer's market, and I think it's a great illustration you weren't showing up as the person you want to be. What, what were some of the other early signs that alcohol was, was impacting your professional life? Mm
[00:08:52] Meg: I don't I don't know what I could have been If I wasn't drinking, do you know what I mean? it's one thing to say okay, I'm [00:09:00] not going to work drunk and I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. And I think I'm a really, I don't think I know I was a really good employee because behind every drink is always somebody who's a little bit anxious or a little bit, something else.
[00:09:13] Meg: Right. And for me, there was some perfectionist and some people pleasing tendencies and anxiety and all of that kind of stuff. Right. So that actually made me a really great employee. That said. When you go home and binge drink or when you spend your weekends not resting yourself and nurturing yourself and when you spend your whole life, frankly, not living in alignment with who you authentically are, I think it does take away from your performance in your career because it takes away from your performance in, in all of your life.
[00:09:45] Meg: Frankly, I felt like crap a lot. What could have that, what could that have been if I didn't?
[00:09:52] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:09:53] Sonia: I know you briefly mentioned getting your chip and so it sounds like you're in AA and so [00:10:00] how did your sobriety journey begin and what were the first steps that you took?
[00:10:05] Meg: Yeah. So I, I went to my 1st meeting and luckily, not a lot of people get to say this and that's okay. I, I offer this with, like, no judgment or no points. There's no a trophy. Right? Um, but I went to my 1st meeting the day after I had, uh. My last drink and I've not ever had a relapse like I was one of those people who walked in and I heard people saying things that I immediately recognized to be true.
[00:10:34] Meg: Now, arguably, I just was ready to be there, honestly, and, um, and I think I was sort of tenderized for that moment. Um, but I went in and I basically learned that. everything that I had deeply and secretly suspected is true, that I'm addicted to alcohol, that I can't stop drinking. And so I actually, that beginning part of my journey was, it sucked a lot.
[00:10:57] Meg: I felt like a really terrible human being [00:11:00] on like every measure and every score. And I think that's also part of the reason that for me creating that move and creating that, Shift in my physical location to being closer to people who had done that for a while and lived through it. And I could see that, like, I could see the physical manifestation of 2 people who, um.
[00:11:20] Meg: who went about their daily lives and lived happy lives without alcohol, like, was really good for me. I did not know like, what do you do if you don't socialize with alcohol? I truly didn't know. I had no idea. What, what do people do? How do you go hang out? How do you go to a wedding?
[00:11:34] Meg: without drinking? How do you go camping without drinking? Like, you don't think about this stuff until you're, like, out of it, but what do you do at a work function? Do you go to happy hours? Do you stop? do you not make friends anymore with anybody who drinks? Like, all of this stuff, to me, felt like, um, a really crushing weight of, impossibility, and I needed help, I guess, out of the dark.
[00:11:59] Meg: And A. [00:12:00] A. also And then the community that I met there, like these were people that were like, for lack of a better word, like mentoring me, showing me how to live a normal life. I just didn't know. I didn't know how to do it.
[00:12:10] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:12:11] Sonia: it took me like years to figure out what brunch was about.
[00:12:15] Meg: Yeah. Food. Eating.
[00:12:18] Kathleen: Mm
[00:12:18] Meg: Yeah.
[00:12:19] Sonia: Eggs. I
[00:12:22] Meg: not paying for the bottomless mimosas? Like, yeah.
[00:12:28] Sonia: something about the bottomless mimosas.
[00:12:30] Meg: Yeah.
[00:12:32] Kathleen: So how, how did you balance your professional responsibilities when you were navigating early sobriety? Mm.
[00:12:43] Meg: don't know. Listen, I always say everything has a front and a back, right? And. It would be a lie for me to tell you that I removed alcohol from my life, and then in rushed all of these really super healthy habits, and I became like this enlightened, you know, Zen master.
[00:12:56] Meg: That's not what happened at all. Actually, it was really messy. And for a [00:13:00] while, I used my work as my new addiction. Like, I just was able to be busy at my new job, which was this, you know, being, the lawyer here and whatever. And so I guess in a weird way, when I say everything has a front and a back, the dark side of that is that workaholism isn't great and, and all of that, but, um, I'm, I was really present.
[00:13:22] Meg: with the business. I was really present with learning and educating myself. I spent a lot of time on the weekends reading a lot of books. Our business is chemistry. I mean, I'm not a chemist. I, I, I read a lot. I did a lot of things to educate myself. I, I learned corporate finance. I like, I did all of this stuff because I just had time on my hands and I was like not drinking and I had to go somewhere with that like frenetic energy.
[00:13:47] Meg: And so that's how I did it at first. could say that's not ideal, but like for me, that probably served me really, really well later on. I mean, I'm served in this moment by that moment.
[00:13:59] Kathleen: [00:14:00] hmm. You Yeah, I I think that's a really interesting way to say, like, yeah, there was intense work that you did, like professional work at that time in your early sobriety, but it did serve you now.
[00:14:11] Meg: Mm hmm.
[00:14:12] Kathleen: Um, and I think that's, that's, that's good to acknowledge that.
[00:14:16] Meg: For sure.
[00:14:17] Kathleen: We're going to switch gears a little bit and talk about.
[00:14:20] Kathleen: People pleasing and as I said to you before we started recording Um, I see a lot of people pleasers in my practice So so much for you What how has the need to people please affected you in the past? Mm hmm
[00:14:44] Meg: People who struggle with people pleasing, And people who lie about it. I really think, it is something that, that, there's a lot of shame and, and whatever around. but I don't know why.
[00:14:54] Meg: we all long to belong and to be in community. And for me, I, [00:15:00] I just, I don't know. Why? But there was this intense, I mean, we could psychoanalyze that, but there was an intense desire for everyone around me to always be happy most importantly to be happy with me. And so the way that manifested in my life was always to just never step out of the box, never step out of the line, never rub against something I shouldn't. And alcohol made that really easy to do because you can sort of, first of all, I'd have a drink or two and I'd immediately start to relax and then it was really easy to just get lost in a crowd or to be, I, I don't know how to describe it. I, I guess if you don't struggle with this, maybe you don't understand or maybe you do.
[00:15:45] Meg: And, and I don't know. And I just don't know because I don't have the sober person or the normal. Drinkers experience, butif you're such an insane people pleaser and you're drunk You don't care as much what people think like it simply put like it takes away your your [00:16:00] Thinking about what other people are thinking and that's why people who drink too much Very often are like crying in a corner or whatever, you know in the next door the next day We wake up ashamed right because we drink too much We fell out of line, and it gave me like a break from the intense loop of what are other people thinking?
[00:16:17] Meg: What's happening? what should I be doing differently? And so,As I sobered up, and again, there's physical sobriety, and then there's emotional sobriety, right, and, and those are two different things, and emotional sobriety is my lifelong quest. Um, I think every person in recovery would say that.
[00:16:36] Meg: as I move forward in emotional sobriety, I have really had this amazing and yet, like, arduous and sort of heartbreaking journey of coming closer to who I actually am. When we live our whole lives, wanting to be the best for the people in the room, without knowing it, we change who we are to meet the needs of the people in [00:17:00] the room, or the wants, or the desires, or the even preferences.
[00:17:04] Meg: And so I gave away and self abandoned a lot of who I was in order to make that happen because I couldn't deal with the discomfort of disappointing someone or of not being liked or of not being accepted or whatever the fear was in any given room. So it's been really cool is to, uh, to become a person that's like, yeah, I guess if I'm, if, if I'm not for these people, then these aren't my people to really like own that.
[00:17:29] Meg: And like, To really embody that and not at all. Coincidentally, that has coincided with the trajectory of growth in my career because in order to grow a business in order to scale a business and in order to get like, to certain next levels of success, you do have to take risks and you do have to stand many times by yourself at the end of your own plank and say, I'm standing.
[00:17:52] Meg: This is what I'm doing. This is what's going to happen. Come what may. And, that can be lonely and that can be, in places where people are [00:18:00] intensely disappointed with you, where you cannot please them. But I'm learning, and I'm always on a constant journey to say I, I might disappoint all of you, but I will not abandon myself anymore.
[00:18:12] Meg: And that's really like the end of people pleasing is the end of self abandonment.
[00:18:16] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Ha ha
[00:18:18] Sonia: what's the difference, between being accommodating and being a people pleaser? I, I thought I was accommodating Kathleen until we started this
[00:18:33] Kathleen: Ha ha ha.
[00:18:35] Meg: gosh, I don't know. That might be more of a question for Kathleen, like, because I, too, would always say, oh, I just, I don't want to be difficult or I don't want to be high maintenance. I use that one all the time. I don't want to be high maintenance. And I will say, I was actually having this conversation.
[00:18:50] Meg: Conversation earlier with a female colleague women in business. Very often. We say we don't want to be high maintenance. and because there's, a different set of rules, [00:19:00] right? And, a woman who's picky in a meeting is different than a man who's picky in a meeting. Right? And so I think we, we tend to sort of shape shift in that regard.
[00:19:07] Meg: And then what we do is we label ourselves and we're labeled by others as well. She's very accommodating. And I think that line between being accommodating. And that line between being people pleasing is so thin that I sometimes don't even, I don't actually even know the difference sometimes. But I do think it comes down to, am I abandoning myself in this moment?
[00:19:30] Meg: If I give you the front seat because I know you struggle with motion sickness, and I'm fine sitting in the back, and it's not an abandonment of myself to do that, then I think I'm accommodating your need. But if I, too, get violently ill in the back seat, and I'm always letting you sit in the front, then I think there's something else at play there.
[00:19:50] Meg: And that's a simplistic example, but
[00:19:52] Kathleen: I agree with that full, full stop. I think it's the intention behind it. So exactly what you're saying, [00:20:00] like what is the intention? And sometimes if we're not aware of our people pleasing tendencies, it can be really difficult to be aware of the intention behind what we're doing. So a similar example to the car, I will give you about, uh, So when my boyfriend and I first started having sleepovers five years ago, he wanted the same side of the bed that I sleep on. And I gave it to him because I didn't realize at the time, but I was, I was being a people pleaser because actually I can't sleep well on the other side of the bed. And to this day, it irks me because I, I. I abandoned myself, right? I abandoned, and it's a small example, but it's not. I abandoned myself because it's now lasted five, like years now.
[00:20:57] Kathleen: And
[00:20:57] Sonia: still going on?
[00:20:58] Kathleen: I don't sleep on the side of the [00:21:00] bed where I can sleep.
[00:21:01] Sonia: wait till Thanksgiving. I have something to say to him.
[00:21:03] Meg: Yeah,
[00:21:05] Kathleen: so I think this is a great example of if it didn't bother me and I could sleep on either side of the bed, then it would be accommodating, right? But it wasn't. It was me, especially like trying to please my new boyfriend, got to morph myself into something else. So I think that's a great, I love how you broke that down.
[00:21:26] Kathleen: Yeah. Mm.
[00:21:29] Meg: too, like we are not necessarily always aware. And again, this is where like practices that, that I've had to employ, like sometimes I don't think we always know what we need.
[00:21:41] Kathleen: hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:21:42] Meg: self abandoning without even knowing what it is that we want or
[00:21:46] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:21:47] Meg: And the difficulty there is that when you start the inquiry and the work of being like, what side of the bed do I really need to sleep on?
[00:21:54] Kathleen: Yeah.
[00:21:55] Meg: That's a metaphor for like, What kind of relationship do I really [00:22:00] need to be in? What kind of job do I really need to be in? What kind of food do I really need to eat? when you start to answer those questions honestly, you will lose people, you will lose careers, you will lose things that mean a great deal to you.
[00:22:16] Meg: And I think then we stop sometimes, right? And then people pleasing becomes also a way that we, like, justify it, if that makes sense.
[00:22:27] Kathleen: Mm hmm. It does make sense. What impact do you think people pleasing has on maintaining sobriety?
[00:22:34] Meg: I think in early sobriety, I noticed it a lot more, okay, because actually, part of my story is that I lost all the friends I had at that time, for the most part. I, I really don't have that many friends from when I was a drinker, because I became someone that was no fun, and I didn't, you know what I mean?
[00:22:53] Meg: Like, the things that a lot of people are afraid of, like, That actually happened to me. Like I stopped getting invited I was like, no fun people [00:23:00] cause surprise, surprise. I was hanging out with a bunch of other alcoholics undiagnosed. And so it made them uncomfortable for me to say, I was going to go sit in a bar and not drink with them.
[00:23:09] Meg: They felt like I was judging them or this or that or whatever. so early on in sobriety, the alarm bell that I, give myself and gave myself was like. Oh man, am I going here because I feel like if I don't, I'm going to disappoint these people. I have no business being here right now, by the way.
[00:23:26] Meg: I've had a really bad day and I've got three weeks of sobriety. Why am I in a bar? because I'm people pleasing. Because I told them no the last three nights, and I don't want to disappoint them tonight. a lot of that can lead then, I think, to, like, at its earliest part of sobriety, it can lead to the downfall of everything you've been struggling to maintain. Later, I think it becomes a lot more insidious. I think there are times when we, um, where the people, maybe, for example, you have, a parent or your family, like, you've let them down a lot when you were a [00:24:00] drinker. And now you're coming back, and you're trying to make things right, and you're trying to live in a different way, and we can overcorrect the skit.
[00:24:10] Meg: We can seek to make them, happy instead of just make ourselves honorable. Does that make sense? And that's also a fine line. And so I think that it gets difficult because it looks like It looks real noble to be like, well, I was, I missed their birthday for the last 10 years because I overslept.
[00:24:30] Meg: And now we'll do whatever they want to do or, or whatever. Like, well, no, that's just people pleasing. it's, you can show up honorable and be a good person and not make everyone in the room happy. that can happen. But again, that's something I'm still learning to this day.
[00:24:43] Meg: Like, how do I live authentically as I need to live and be who I need to be at the risk of, of disappointing people? Like, that's not an alcoholic problem. That's not a recovery problem. That's a human problem. And I'm still learning how to do it.
[00:24:59] Kathleen: [00:25:00] it's scary, like it's scary, right? it's there, there's fear continually to be able to show up authentically that way and know that you're risking people being disappointed in you. That's a scary thing. Yeah. Mmhmm.
[00:25:45] Sonia: So I know we just talked about how you handle situations where people pleasing conflicts with your values. How do you handle those situations when it comes to alcohol? In the sense that I, I had [00:26:00] an ex husband who would jump in before I could say I was sober and say, Oh, Sonia doesn't drink. And since, we're not together, I've realized, one of my values is, to recover out loud.
[00:26:11] Sonia: and I find myself, and Kathleen does it too, we don't jump to tell people we're sober all the time, right? When we meet new people so, yeah, how do you handle that?
[00:26:22] Meg: Most of the time, I don't. Listen, I, I was really super rigorous at the beginning. I, I used AA. There's a million different ways to get sober and I honor them all. Like, this is just the path that happened to show up in front of me, and so I neither endorse it nor, you know what I mean? But I was very rigorous with all of that right away, right?
[00:26:40] Meg: And so I would, be sort of Open about that and, all that totally fine. I don't really ever talk about it too much. Um, and not cause I feel like I definitely don't have anything to be ashamed of, but to be honest, like it's not relevant. Like most of the situations that I'm in like that, I can just say no, thank [00:27:00] you.
[00:27:00] Meg: And I can do that. If somebody's pressing the issue, I just always assume that there's like a universal spiritual reason that's coming up. So then I answer honestly. And if you're pressing it, like, oh, come on, are you sure? Are you sure? Or why don't, why are, why don't you want a glass of wine? Then I'll just say I'm a recovering alcoholic and I don't drink.
[00:27:18] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:27:19] Meg: I'll say something like I haven't had a drink in 13 years. Tonight's not going to be the night. Or depending on the, the crowd of people, like, oh, no, no, no, no, I drank my life supply already. They're out of tickets for me. I, I, you know, like, because I'm, I have a decent sense of humor about this too.
[00:27:33] Meg: Like, I don't take myself all that seriously.
[00:27:36] Kathleen: And
[00:27:37] Meg: going to lie about it, but I, it's not my banner issue for myself.
[00:27:40] Kathleen: yeah, it's not, it's not like you don't introduce yourself and say, hi, I'm Megan and I'm a recovering alcoholic or, yeah. How did you overcome people pleasing?
[00:27:51] Meg: I didn't. that's, yeah, Like, if you did, tell me all your secrets, you know?
[00:27:56] Kathleen: I'm still sleeping on the wrong side of the bed. Come [00:28:00] on. Mm
[00:28:02] Meg: every once in a while I get hit with, the people pleasing mindfulness bell, okay? Like, I am like, ding, okay, awareness, I'm doing people pleasing, why am I doing that? And, um, and I now live in such a way where I'm like, okay, hold the phone here. If, this is happening. There's a bunch of shit that happened before this.
[00:28:21] Meg: Maybe I'm not sleeping well. I'm not, taking care of my body. I'm not feeling good about myself. I'm stressed out at work. Da da da da da. Because for me, when I'm in a people pleasing state, it is always tied to some insecurity about something, right? So if I'm people pleasing at work, it's probably because I have an underlying insecurity about the strength of that part of the business, or about the, The meeting I'm about to go into or, or something like that.
[00:28:47] Meg: So for me, it's just something that like, Oh, this is a check engine light or a mindfulness bell for something else to look at. And then I got to go deal with that, the root issue. But I don't know how to be a person that like, never tries to please the [00:29:00] people around me. Like I, I'm getting much, much better at it, but to say it never happens anymore would be just a filthy lie.
[00:29:07] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Well, thank you for being honest about that.
[00:29:12] Meg: of course.
[00:29:13] Sonia: Megan, we're going to pivot a bit to self care when you're in a leadership role. So what is your definition of self care?
[00:29:21] Meg: Super simple, whatever it is that makes me feel like I'm taking care of me. So we've, we've gotten into this, especially in like leadership, right? And like when you like executive leadership, it's like, Oh, we've, we've built retreats around it. Like you're only having self care if you're in a, a week long retreat space and getting massages every day, and there's like hot stones and all that shit.
[00:29:44] Meg: And you know what? Listen, I love that. But for me. Um, my life is very often scheduled hectically and packed and I, I strive in my life for balance, but. But don't get it. And so I tell people like, I actually, I, [00:30:00] I'm aiming more for presence than I am probably balance, and I, I seek to be present wherever I'm at, and, and fully present, like just being where my feet are, and, and whatever it is I'm trying to do.
[00:30:09] Meg: So, self care for me is anything that enables me to do that. And so, where are my feet in this moment right now? I'm on this podcast with you. So, taking care of myself and being really fully, cared for in this moment is, I have some water here. And I got like a comfy chair and my headphones aren't all on the fritz.
[00:30:30] Meg: Like I checked my it equipment out before I got on this thing. Like, you know what I mean? these things that in this moment, if all of that was going berserk, I would feel not cared for. I would not have taken care of myself in this moment. Now, later on when I need to relax and just kind of unwind, like maybe that's the place for a hot bath or maybe a massage or whatever, but like for me, my self care has to follow my presence.
[00:30:56] Meg: And since I don't have the kind of life that's like this [00:31:00] predictable, like awesome every day is the same schedule and routine. I love structure and schedule and routine. And I do the best I can to carry that with me. I travel a lot, but I have to sometimes take myself care down to like just a moment by moment thing.
[00:31:11] Meg: You're on a podcast. What makes you feel cared for? Water. The microphone works. We're not working out my camera issues so that when I get on the phone with you or on this podcast, I'm not all pissed off. You know what I mean? And I think, um, It really can be something as simple as that. And when we boil it down that way, too, we give ourselves permission to just do little things in little moments to, like, take care of ourselves.
[00:31:36] Meg: And pretty soon that becomes habitual. And that's when you're winning. For real.
[00:31:40] Kathleen: I totally agree with that. I think it's like, for me, self care is many moments throughout the day versus like, although I wouldn't hesitate to go on a week long retreat, but it's it is like many moments. And so I just think of an example today in between sessions with clients, I had 10 [00:32:00] minutes and I just I, I too, Megan, like patchouli in the home.
[00:32:04] Kathleen: So I lit some patchouli incense and I wrapped myself in one of my warm blankets and I just took like three breaths and then I went back into session and because I was like, and then I can be super present with my clients. So it wasn't, I didn't cost anything. I just went and let something already had patchouli.
[00:32:24] Kathleen: Of course, makes me feel better. I was very specific about the scent. The warmth, the texture, Sonya's laughing at me because this is a thing between us and she feels like she can smell patchouli on the outside of my
[00:32:36] Sonia: I have to wash my, I have to wash my clothes when I get back from your house. Yes.
[00:32:42] Kathleen: You have to wash your clothes because of
[00:32:44] Sonia: I don't want to smell like patchouli,
[00:32:47] Kathleen: Who doesn't want to smell like patchouli?
[00:32:49] Meg: Honestly.
[00:32:50] Sonia: you, you came to my house and when you unpacked it smelled like patchouli.
[00:32:58] Kathleen: The point was, Megan, [00:33:00] not about the patchouli, but it was like the many moments, what are those small moments of self care that you can bring into your life every day? And you're right, they become habitual.
[00:33:09] Sonia: You could try people pleasing with that. If you want to please me, get rid of the patchouli, switch it up to like a bergamot. It's fun.
[00:33:17] Kathleen: No. Because I think I would be abandoning myself, but I will accommodate and not burn it when you're coming. How about that?
[00:33:26] Sonia: I don't know, I think I might like it.
[00:33:28] Kathleen: Uh huh. Mhm. Mhm.
[00:33:30] Meg: There's a closet patchouli lover right there.
[00:33:34] Kathleen: So, um, sorry, back on track, but, uh, I wanted to know more about, you know, did alcohol impact your ability to practice self-care as a leader? So if you go back to that time, you said you were, still really showing up professionally, but was there much self care happening for you there?
[00:33:54] Meg: No, not in hindsight, absolutely not. But I did tell myself it was.
[00:33:57] Kathleen: Okay.
[00:33:58] Meg: I mean, who hasn't [00:34:00] said, like, Ugh, it's wine o'clock. I'm just gonna go home, and I'm gonna settle in with a glass of wine, and da da da. Like, alcohol was self care. And for the record, not to shirk my own, self responsibility here, because I don't do that either, but we are living in a culture that's built around the idea that alcohol is self care.
[00:34:18] Meg: Make no mistake, we're being hit all the time with the message that if you want to truly relax and have a good time, there's booze involved. So, I didn't think that I wasn't taking care of myself. And in fact, that became a really great, justification that all the people around me, believed and agreed with, by the way.
[00:34:38] Meg: nobody was like, oh, I don't think that's self care. I think she should engage in healthy habits. Like, nobody's saying that. they're having wine with me. And so, I didn't, Discover the concept of self care. After I quit drinking, I was smoking cigarettes, y'all. Like, like, you know what I mean? Like, I, and that became self care.
[00:34:58] Meg: And was it? [00:35:00] Maybe. I don't know. it got me through some pretty uncomfortable moments. it evolved. and I think we have to quit, like, being so hard on ourselves. about not right away, getting to,massage, you know, or whatever, meditation or whatnot. Like, I just, The programming was faulty.
[00:35:17] Meg: I was engaged in self care that was actually harming
[00:35:21] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:35:22] Meg: but you know what I was I was trained in that, like, by a, by a culture,
[00:35:28] Sonia: Megan, as a leader, do you encourage your team members to integrate self care into their routines?
[00:35:34] Meg: 100%. And we build our sort of model around here, around that. So, for example, just tiny little examples that make the biggest difference. I don't dock anybody PTO for like half days. So, you can just have, we have an unlimited half day policy. if you need to leave and go to your shrink, therapist, whatever you prefer,
[00:35:55] Kathleen: ha ha!
[00:35:55] Meg: Um, For an hour in the middle of the day, because then you should just [00:36:00] go do that and then come back to work or not. If it was a particularly bad deal, like that day. We want you to be at your son's baseball game. We want you to leave and go to your Friday night rowing club. we want you to be able to do that kind of stuff.
[00:36:14] Meg: The policy around here, though, is that this is still a for profit corporation. We still need to get things done. So don't abuse the policy. You know, what's funny is I've never written this out. We. We have quite a few employees, like we're running a significant operation here, but I've never written it out.
[00:36:28] Meg: It's unlimited half days. Don't abuse it. And I actually joke about it when I give all company addresses. I'm like, if you abuse it and you're the one that ruined it, then everybody is going to be really mad at you. So don't do that. Like we kind of joke around about it. Nobody does. They have such like care for that.
[00:36:44] Meg: People feel free to leave and do what they need to do. Um, But nobody is like taking every single day, half a day off. Do you know what I mean? Like everybody is sort of
[00:36:55] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:36:57] Meg: it. That creates like a really cool [00:37:00] environment of self care because then it normalizes people doing things and engaging in things and not using like, Oh, I have to work as an excuse for not doing that.
[00:37:08] Meg: So, um, we just had every Tuesday, we lunch together and today we're recording on a Tuesday at lunch. Everybody was joking about the fact that everybody here, has a therapist, right? we shouldn't joke about it, but we do. We all kind of joke about it and, I thought though, how neat is that? Like, this is an environment where people are like, oh yeah, everybody here is in therapy, but they are, like, they get to do that if they want to. Um, I teach yoga, right? So, a lot of people, you know, know that I go and I do that, and I'll just leave and go and do that, or I'll go to a class, and then I come back to work.
[00:37:41] Meg: Like, I think people feel like there's a energy of that here, and a, It's sort of a, I don't know, a value of taking care of yourself. The flip side of that, or like the other side of that is that, so that you can be a whole human present in this work when you're here at this job. [00:38:00] And um, and so as long as everybody understands the balance between that, because we're not a family, We are a community, but we're not a family.
[00:38:08] Meg: Like, we're all here for a purpose. Um, so long as we all understand that, then it works out really well. And it does.
[00:38:16] Kathleen: I can't quote the research, and I should find it, but I remember reading when I was an executive myself about self care and productivity. So if you have the employees that are working like, they don't have any time for their lives, they're working around the clock, the productivity actually goes down. But if you allow that time, and it's not being policed, which it sounds like it's not, that actually productivity and retention go up.
[00:38:45] Kathleen: Mm
[00:38:46] Meg: I would agree with that. Uh, well over half the people who work here have worked here ten years or more.
[00:38:51] Kathleen: Wow!
[00:38:52] Meg: And my results speak for themselves. Like, I've doubled the size of a company [00:39:00] in five years. Right?
[00:39:02] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:39:04] Meg: we did that as a team. And it's a group effort. And since I bought this company and took over, it's been things like unlimited half days.
[00:39:12] Meg: Um, and. we pay 100 percent of the health insurance premiums for our employees. Let me just do things like that. Like, where people feel like, they're permitted to care for themselves because we care for them too. I have a very human centered capitalism approach in that. I'm a very proud capitalist and I'm.
[00:39:30] Meg: I want that to feel. Really human centered. Um, and so we do that. And so we get results and performance in that. And so I don't have any data to support, but I could just tell you anecdotally. I believe that it works. I believe that if you've seen that research, that it's true. For sure.
[00:39:46] Sonia: that actually brings me to the question. So how do you define success now in your personal and your professional life?
[00:39:54] Meg: Those are 2 different things for me. Um, I am now the leader of a [00:40:00] organization. That's much, much bigger than I am. And so for me, being successful is, in, on the leadership front, is not necessarily about how I feel or whether I feel personally successful in any given day, because it's not about me. good leadership, you need to remember, like, it ain't about you every day.
[00:40:18] Meg: I wake up every day knowing that there are many, many families whose mortgages and the kids braces and shoes and whatever, that's dependent on my decision making in any given day. So, it isn't really about my success anymore. So the success of the enterprise, the profitability of the enterprise is success, because if we're not making money and we're not doing well, then I can't give these people jobs and I can't, they can't lift themselves and get promotions and raises and all that kind of stuff.
[00:40:44] Meg: Very simply, being successful as a business is, is having a profitable and growing business and, and making sure that I've created a place where people want to come to work and can be successful and can advance themselves and their goals. And I don't want to sugarcoat that and say that as long as we all feel [00:41:00] good and feel like we're working, I can't tell you that because we could feel great, but 6 people got laid off because we're not hitting numbers like, and that's not for me, success.
[00:41:09] Meg: On the personal side. There's a difference for me between success and fulfillment, and I want to be really clear about that because on the personal side,For me, being successful means like, feeling like I've won the day. Do you know what I mean? I have objectives and KPIs and things like that that I have to do.
[00:41:31] Meg: And some days I feel really successful. Like, man, I really resolved that conflict. That is off the desk. Man, that feels good. This is done. We close that. that's success. Fulfillment is leaving that success and going and teaching yoga for a little while. And getting with people on an energetic level.
[00:41:49] Meg: And feeling like I'm making an offering in the world that's more heart based, I Not that my, my corporate work isn't because I think they all bleed together, but it's just different, [00:42:00] right? And so I, I differentiate that because I think we have this idea that if a business isn't like healing good and working towards all the feel good stuff all the time that like we're somehow failing.
[00:42:13] Meg: And it's like, no, I want my employees and myself to be fulfilled. I do that with my family, with my friends, with my spiritual practices. Um, But to be successful means that every day I show up here and I do the very best I can do and I'm, I get wins that benefit my team. And that's the difference.
[00:42:31] Kathleen: Yeah, I think that's an important difference, and I like how you've differentiated that. how do you do, how do you stay motivated when things are challenging? Mm
[00:42:39] Meg: Um, I'm a very just motivated person,
[00:42:43] Kathleen: In general?
[00:42:44] Meg: in general. Like I have a lot of, in yoga we would call it like pitta energy, right? Fire, like I have, yes, I, so I have a lot of that. So I actually, Really like a good challenge and I, like, I wake up every day and, for the most part, I'm just pumped to be here. and so even when things are [00:43:00] hard, I accept that as like, part of the process in terms of what needs to happen.
[00:43:05] Meg: I'm a very, um. I'm a lawyer first, right? So like I have a very analytical mind in terms of, well, sometimes business is up and sometimes business is down and things happen. And that's part of it. You know what I mean? So I have a very, I grew up in the Midwest. I have a very pragmatic, like, well, this is a bad day and tomorrow will be better.
[00:43:21] Meg: Like it's very, so I can stay motivated like that. Where I struggle is on the emotional stuff
[00:43:27] Kathleen: Mm.
[00:43:28] Meg: because you can't logic with that. You can't, there is no, going through something difficult, you really do have to just sit and feel that. you can't escape it. And man, sobriety taught me that. which just sucks. Like,
[00:43:44] Kathleen: does.
[00:43:45] Meg: book of Alcoholics Anonymous, there's a thing that says, like, we thought we could find an easier, softer way. And I'm like, dammit, isn't that the truth?
[00:43:51] Meg: I would love that. I would love to just not feel my sadness. That would be really cool. And in fact, like, I spent a lot of Grey Goose Martinis trying [00:44:00] to do just that, right? but. That's harder, and, and so every day I have to just be like, okay,I have to stay motivated, I guess, I have to stay present with this, but I'm not gonna tell you, that I, I relish the opportunity to do that.
[00:44:12] Meg: I'm still struggling with that. That's part of the reason I spent. a long time drinking. Uh, and that's part of what my emotional sobriety is, is to say I can't change this. This is sad, and I'm just going to be in here until one day it's not.
[00:44:27] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:44:28] Meg: And that sucks, but that's, that's what is.
[00:44:31] Kathleen: So I have sort of a two part question. What role does reflection play? Play in your sobriety. And I also wanna know, what role does mindfulness play in your sobriety?
[00:44:46] Meg: So for me, mindfulness is just the matter of like being aware
[00:44:50] Kathleen: Mm-Hmm.
[00:44:50] Meg: and present, full stop. So you cannot reflect unless you've first gotten mindful, for me. [00:45:00] Um, But that said, there's a moment for reflection that might not be at the same time as the moment for mindfulness.I'll just speak as a leader.
[00:45:11] Meg: a lot of times, there's really not time for me to make a decision with full reflection and to sit and do that.A lot of decisions I need to make, I need to make right now, and sometimes those quick decisions have huge consequences, the balance of that is, it's not small. It's not 2 percent or skim.
[00:45:27] Meg: Like, you know, there's big decisions. So for me, getting really quiet and getting mindful and just being like, okay, what is in this moment? What is actually happening? Not, what is she saying, and they're upset about this, and da da da, cutting, cut the shit. Like, what's actually happening is a mindfulness practice.
[00:45:46] Meg: So is meditation, okay? but, but anytime you're walking intentionally, you're being mindful, right? So, even if you're sitting in a really tense meeting, and everybody's looking at you to make a very quick decision, just being like, I'm, [00:46:00] I need to be with what is, is mindful. Later. I can go back and reflect on that, but good leadership, really doesn't have the benefit of reflection usually in real time. been my experience. You can find somebody who says otherwise, but sometimes you just have to act decisively and run the risk of being wrong. And then reflection gives you an opportunity to go dissect that.
[00:46:25] Kathleen: Well, and we haven't talked about this, in today's podcast, but I'm assuming that intuition probably plays a big role if you don't, as a leader, have that time to reflect in that moment, learning to know what your intuition is saying and trusting it is hugely important.
[00:46:48] Meg: tell you a hundred stories about how my gut has been right. And and now actually it's like my chief operating officer and I just joke about it. She's like, what does your gut say? Cause you know it's going to be right. Like [00:47:00] the most epic failure stories I have in this business are when I knew in my gut and I did the opposite.
[00:47:06] Meg: Every time. Hundred percent of the time. So, This is back to that whole practice of not self abandoning,
[00:47:13] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:47:14] Meg: You gotta know yourself well enough that you trust that gut. And I think if you're not in a place in your life yet, where you have developed self trust, which by the way isn't probably in the first few weeks after you quit drinking, you know what I mean?
[00:47:28] Meg: If you're not in that place yet, then maybe, um, maybe leadership is a little bit more difficult for you, right? Because you do have to have a really, I think. a really firm belief in your own knowing and a trust in that.
[00:47:48] Sonia: I've been working on self trust a lot, entrusting my intuition Can you, Megan, share, I know you're in AA and they have a lot of mantras and quotes which I love, but can you share one [00:48:00] that really guides you in your sobriety?
[00:48:03] Meg: Well, listen, I, uh, when I first quit drinking, I went into this church basement and, they had all the mantras on the walls and whatnot and, there was a, uh, framed thing that was like super old and it was like cigarette stained, and I kind of wish I had one that was like still cigarette stained like that because it just like was not like cool looking, but it said life on life's terms and, I had no idea like what that meant.
[00:48:28] Meg: And it took me a long time to, like, understand what they were trying to say, because I thought that was stupid, right?
[00:48:34] Sonia: What are they trying to say?
[00:48:35] Meg: But now I understand it to mean, you do have to live life on life's terms sometimes. we are not in control, really, of much at all. um, and I do think that, um, People pleasing, drinking, any kind of struggling with any kind of anything really is about our, our human wrestling with the fact that we're not in control and trying to be in control.
[00:48:58] Meg: And so I think [00:49:00] saying life on life's terms is saying like, this is what is, now what am I to do?
[00:49:06] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:49:07] Meg: And, um, and then choosing our response to that. And, uh, I think that's so simple, but there's so much contained in those words.
[00:49:17] Kathleen: There is a lot contained in those words and I know I talk a lot with my clients about about control and the perceived control. We think we have and then boom something happens that reminds us like oh shit. We don't actually have control over that. And I love that. I love that mantra. And I have never seen that one actually at an AA meeting.
[00:49:41] Kathleen: So I'm, I'm really glad that you brought that one forward. Megan, what's next for you in your personal growth and your personal endeavors?
[00:49:50] Meg: I don't know.
[00:49:51] Kathleen: Huh? Hmm.
[00:49:54] Meg: honest about this. I'm not a goal setter. so I have certain objectives every day that have to be met. You know, I have a bankers [00:50:00] and I have, and I have other people's goals, um, that are obviously important to me.
[00:50:03] Meg: I've made commitments there. but I have never been a person that said in 5 years, I'm going to be doing this. And then I, like, make a vision board and do all that. It's just never been me. I don't, What I do strive to do is to check in every day to see that I'm on my path and not someone else's, that I'm living true to myself and living the life that I'm supposed to be living.
[00:50:24] Meg: And I've always in my life gotten these, forks in the road where, some opportunity comes to me and I sit and I gut check it and then. I do it and then I look back and I see like, oh my gosh, like how amazing that this all came together, right? So even like my story of coming to this company and then like just all of it was like, I don't really believe in coincidences, right?
[00:50:46] Meg: But it was just like, it can't be, right? It was like a beautiful design, but I ultimately just went where, where I was led. So the answer is I don't know. I hope that I am leading a company that [00:51:00] continues to grow. I hope that I am really showing up as like the most authentic and capable leader that I can possibly be.
[00:51:09] Meg: I sincerely endeavor to be doing that sober, but I do live my life by the one day at a time mantra, and so this is what I'm doing today. Um, but I would be lying if I didn't say that I. I hope and endeavor to die sober 1 day, that's that's the goal. Um, and I think that, 1 of my sort of basic, life.
[00:51:34] Meg: On the, on the personal side is just to really, really be a laser committed to, to this concept of not self abandoning to live like my calling in the world to follow my path in the world, which does weave in and out of other people's lives for whatever reason, I've been placed here at the head of this company and, you know, I've come here and I'm, I'm trying to do this in, in [00:52:00] this way, um, but to go wherever it is that I'm going really authentically and Earnestly.
[00:52:07] Kathleen: Hmm. Well, thank you, Megan. I think we're going to leave it here. And I think those are beautiful. Beautiful parting words from you and thank you for all the wisdom that you've shared with us today. And thank you all for listening to Sisters in Sobriety and we'll see you next week. [00:53:00]