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Tyson Popplestone is a Comedian from Melbourne Australia. Join him for a brand new interview each week.
Tyson (00:00.634)
Is good. Yes. Wait recording. I've made that mistake before I am a few weeks ago. Not a few weeks ago. was ages ago now, but, I made the mistake of thinking I was ending the podcast and at the very end hit record and it was, it's. need a, I need a PA or I need like a technician here to help me out. But anyway, not where we're up and running. So, so excited to have the chance to sit down and talk to you. was having a chat with my wife last night about.
Renee DiResta (00:15.008)
no, you lost the whole thing. that sucks.
Tyson (00:30.122)
the book that you wrote and what it is that I was hoping to talk to you about. And I was saying that, I don't know if I'm just older and wiser or it's become way more obvious in recent years or maybe a combination of the two, but it is so wild that forever I always thought of like propaganda misinformation as something other countries did as something that countries less civilized than us took part in. And we're laughing because in recent years, especially with the use of social media,
the internet maybe added a little bit of fuel to the fire. was like, okay. No, we're, we're completely, completely a part of this. And maybe for a lot longer than what we've realized, it's something that my eyes are sort of been open to, but I mean, it's something that you're obviously not only passionate about, but super educated in, like, did you want to just lay a bit of a foundation as to what it is that you talk about in the book and what it is that, you know, is, is sort of concerning. need to be aware of at the very least.
Renee DiResta (01:29.154)
Yeah, so the book's about propaganda and influence and how it's changed today. I didn't, you know, it's funny when I reached out to the publisher and was like, I want to write a book about propaganda. They were like, no one wants to read a book about propaganda. And I was like, no, I think it's interesting. I think I can make it like at least a little bit interesting.
And we kind of went back and forth and I was like, you the most fascinating figures on social media today, like the influencers, the people who have millions of followings, content creators, podcasters, right? People who have incredible reach. That entire ecosystem, that sort of powerful figure didn't even exist 30 years ago. There were celebrities, there were people who were famous, but the idea that you could just go out there and pick up, you know,
go visit a website, make a blog, start a podcast, become an Instagram star or whatever. That's something that only became possible very recently, idea of the self -made massive audience, an audience commensurate with mass media, but you're a random person in your living room or your basement or whatever. And I wanted to write about that figure.
A couple of other people started writing about this topic around the same time. Taylor Lorenz wrote this great book, extremely online, and she's kind of evaluating them as like culture creators. And her book came out, I was like writing mine, and I was like, hey, can I see yours in advance? But I wanted to think about them as like these incredibly pivotal figures in politics, actually, right? And that intersection
propaganda and influence. There's always been this idea of these powerful figures who shape public opinion, who shape the culture, who shape conversations. And I wanted to talk about how influencers have become that in this media environment and kind of in this generation.
Tyson (03:22.166)
It's been so wild watching the growing pains. Like I was having a chat with my mum about this. My mum's 67 and she's, feel a classic example of someone in her age group. She's actually fully trusts as long as you've got an official tie on and you're called the news, whatever you say is fact, regardless. I mean, as long as she just stays on the news channel that she's used to presenting the information that she likes and forever it's kind of been that way, hasn't it? Like there's been these trusted news networks or these trusted professionals who
in a position to present the news and what they say is the truth. And like, maybe there's always been question marks or at least a few question marks about it, but generally speaking, you would, you would go to these guys for accurate information and to watch, you know, info influencers, whether it's podcasters or people on social media, start to have a bit of a voice and spread a whole heap of information, whether that be true or not has really shaken up the system. But what was your sort of entry into the whole conversation? Cause propaganda is obviously not a
conversation, but it's something that I think has become, I mean, as I said at the outset, a lot more relevant or a lot more, I've just become a lot more aware of the fact that it exists in my own life and you know, fallen victim to it more than once.
Renee DiResta (04:22.903)
No.
Renee DiResta (04:35.278)
Yeah, so I would say, so I joined academia in 2019, but prior to that, you know, I was just kind of like a extremely online person. was, I spent a lot of time, you know, was a quant on Wall Street in 2008, you know, like a quantitative trader. I went to venture capital to kind of change careers, out to the Valley, still in Valley in 2013, 2011, 2011. And,
started doing venture capital and this was like the time when social media was really seen as this actually kind of like a tool for good, right? It's remember this was like when the Arab Spring was happening. There was this idea that social media was going to bring democracy to the world and that it was going to be this antidote to sort of controlled gate -capped opinions and there was a lot of hope about that. I was working at the time for a man named Tim O 'Reilly
who was a publisher himself, right, who had this idea that you could really harness the sort of energy and the ideas of people at the vanguard of technology to help see how the world was going to change because technology was this, you know, this force for good and change and democracy. And that remains the sort of prevailing opinion for a while. But then other groups start to realize that they can use the Internet, too. And so it goes from being
this idealism around activism and, you know, using social media to galvanize literal revolutions, right, to make a Facebook page inviting people to a protest. And then, you know, shortly thereafter, a government topples, right, that way in which online energy can kind of becomes a source of offline energy and then offline political power. But what you see next is the rise of groups like ISIS, which is very interesting. And all of a sudden, like the really terrible
becomes visible and you start to see, this is the same system. These are the same tactics. These are the same techniques. These are people who are really coming together. They're galvanized around an idea. And in this case, it happens to be building a brand for a terrorist organization and then using social media to recruit people, particularly to like find disaffected people. And what you start to realize is that tools for communication, tools that shape opinions,
Renee DiResta (06:55.98)
are tools of power, right? The same way that broadcast media was, and now anyone can use them and everybody is. But the argument that I make a lot in the book is that this hasn't necessarily been an unalloyed good, right? It's really good sometimes, it's incredibly powerful, but you also have to see it as like a shifting system of incentives that doesn't necessarily only lead to positive pro -democratic, honest,
fair, know, good things rising to the top, whatever your definition of the term may be. And that actually there's a lot of stuff that starts to happen there where incentive structures lead people to do some really bad things as well.
Tyson (07:39.478)
For sure. Yeah, I this conversation a while ago. I was in conversations with an American supplement company who were talking about potentially getting on board as a sponsor. And I was really interested in, I'm interested in sort of natural products and they sent me a few samples and the truth was, I was just, I felt none of the effects that they said it was gonna have. And they said, what if we up the price that we're willing to pay you for the sponsorship? Would you be more comfortable to share it? And I mean, it was very tempting.
Renee DiResta (08:06.411)
no. Yeah.
Tyson (08:08.99)
It was very tempting just because I'm like, you know what, like if people are really interested in it, maybe they'll find out. But it kind of this conversation, like the incentive structures, that was an experience in my own life where I was like, that's a nice little paycheck actually, to be able to go along with just saying something about what all around a lot of other people have been saying positive things about this particular thing. And I mean, one thing that does my head in is as a number of people I follow on social media and they'll put up like the multiple photos, they'll put up something really engaging.
some facts, something that's taking place politically or whatever it might be. And then you'll get to slide number seven. And it will say, if you're also worried about the government taking over, make sure you subscribe to whatever it might be. And I go, I see what's taken place here. You've absolutely drawn in my attention. You had me hook, line and sinker, but the actual goal here, like you wanted to sell a product and it is so difficult to know like
what is real and what is purely just driven by however many dollars someone's getting paid for it. One thing that I realized through your book is that there doesn't seem to be a real clear, clean way is maybe a better.
Renee DiResta (09:18.496)
no I don't think I don't think there is I think we hope for clarity you know every now and then even when I was writing it I was I was trying to make people like okay pick it apart right I had a couple people who were I don't know what the term in like bookland is but literally there's people where I was like okay we're gonna I'm gonna send you a chapter and I want you to tell me like the worst you know I don't want the good feedback I want like where are the holes of the argument where the stupid ideas and what I was really wrestling with was like even to use the term
influencer, right? That is a massive term that encompasses so many different types of people, so many different types of motivations. How do you like pick that apart? And I would get the question a lot of the time. Do they believe what they're saying was something that something that I would get asked a lot, particularly in the realm of the more not only hyper partisan, but
very vitriolic, right? The people who are really encouraging you to like go hate those other people, go fight with those other people. And the, know, I would get this question a lot, which is like, do they believe it? Right? Do they, you know, the conspiracy theorists, do they really believe it? Or are they just selling you like the, you know, brain force 2000 supplements or the one of the other ones I've seen is like the, I don't know if you have this in Australia, but you know what I mean? When I say like prepper culture, like
Tyson (10:38.038)
What's it called, for sure, 100%. So hey, just a little bit of clarity. So the post that I was telling you about before, I was trying to think what it was. It was a post and the draw in line was, this was the first year that Mark Zuckerberg's bought a bunker on some place. I think it delves right into what you're referring to now is, yeah, the prep culture. I know it's not a new phenomenon either. I've seen some great documentaries.
Renee DiResta (10:39.458)
prepper culture is, I don't know if there's a thing in Australia, you had that, okay?
Renee DiResta (10:57.248)
right into the prepper culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.
Renee DiResta (11:03.872)
Yeah, I didn't know if it was that I wasn't sure if this is one of these unique American exports, but but we definitely have I mean, gosh, they're they're like Netflix shows like Rate My Prep and stuff. I don't know if this is a global thing or just a weird niche American thing. But like Rate My Prep was literally there would be these people and they would articulate like what catastrophe they thought was going to befall America. And then they would
Tyson (11:07.657)
You
Renee DiResta (11:31.614)
share what they were doing to protect themselves from it. And sometimes it was like natural disasters, right? Like the Cascadia Fault is going to rupture, you know, and there's going to be massive flooding or what have you, which is, you know, a super long shot risk, but it's good to be prepared for floods, you know. So you can at least see that there's some, you know, some natural disaster kind of component there. But then you would also see the ones who were like, this political group is going to start a civil war and I need to be
because civil war is coming and that rhetoric became almost increasingly common. It wasn't a common threat or a natural disaster. It was like some evil other that you had to prepare for and that's unfortunately I think not an uncommon part of like the American discourse today and to make us long story a lot shorter or get us back on like off this rattle. You do see like so you should you
Here's how the Democrats are gonna launch a civil war, so you should subscribe to my meal ready to eat dehydrated food that you can keep in your basement. And it's kind of a depressing, honestly, commentary on where we are that dehydrated food is a thing that you can shill on your YouTube channel and actually get quite a bit of a pickup, I imagine. But yeah, you do see that. I think the question sometimes is not,
do they believe it or not as, how should we respond to that kind of stuff writ large as an audience anyway? So, yeah.
Tyson (13:09.568)
mean, it's really interesting. The prep culture, I think it infiltrates Australia a little bit. It was fascinating here. The closest I think I got to it was, so I don't know if you saw, but Australia just went a little mental during the whole COVID period. Like it was a time when the spotlight was on us in a way, which I was kind of embarrassed to be seen in. But one of the really interesting things that I remember on about lockdown four for us was they'd started organizing these lockdown, they were
Renee DiResta (13:35.094)
Yeah.
Tyson (13:39.05)
containment camps, essentially where you came into the country, there was a period that you had to be in these, I don't even know what they're called. And it was just, it was so wild. And on the surface, they were saying, okay, what this is, is this is a place for people to quarantine until they've passed a certain date. And then you come back out into society. But what had started to do the rounds and what I started to freak out a little bit about was that there was so much confidence from people I trusted in the fact that these were actually going to come
Renee DiResta (13:44.335)
I remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the quarantine things.
Tyson (14:06.848)
full on encampments for the unvaccinated where they were no longer gonna be able to be a part. And at the time, I remember speaking to people who I trusted and I looked up to and hearing them speak about this and I was like, okay, this is just a full blown reality. And it was the first time that I'd really seen Aussies delve in at a deep level to this like, hey, look what's about to happen. But what's so interesting about that and prep culture in general is just this idea that there's something mildly scary about it and people seem to be attracted.
Renee DiResta (14:10.083)
interesting.
Tyson (14:35.424)
to mildly scary or mildly weird or uncomfortable. And I mean, as you speak about so well in terms of what your algorithm shows you, it seems to continually just highlight what it is that you've shown some interest in in the past. And so people are often shocked, I guess, depending on what side of the political fence you sit on, one side can speak to the other side and be staggered that they'll think another political opponent's got any chance of being elected when what your feed shows you is that, hey,
chances are, like this is a hundred percent certainty. And I had a conversation like this just the other day at lunch where I was talking to my step -sister and I mean, we're worlds away in terms of politics, but she's one of those people that we can just have really good, honest conversations about where we're at, what we disagree with, blah, blah, blah. And we were speaking about American politics and she said, like a hundred percent, I'm convinced that so -and -so is going to win. And I said, well, I can't believe, I can't believe, like what, she's like, are you on TikTok?
Renee DiResta (15:09.036)
Yeah.
Tyson (15:33.748)
I said, what do mean? goes, if you get on TikTok, what you'll realize is that there's a lot better chance that, you know, this candidate's going to win. I thought, that's, that's really interesting because I think a lot of that might have to do with algorithm, but the algorithm is still something that we're figuring out and sort of trying to understand.
Renee DiResta (15:45.964)
Yeah, with what you're saying.
Renee DiResta (15:50.698)
Yes, it's TikTok in particular is the hardest to understand because TikTok doesn't really care so much who you follow. Like that's an input, but it's showing you sort of what Facebook calls it, unconnected content, right? Content that you have not chosen to follow, you haven't liked the page, you haven't done anything to sort of say like, I want this. And Facebook's actually increased its own percentage of unconnected content in the feed.
And that's because there's a sense that it can intuit what you want based on your behaviors, the people around you, what you actually engage with. And one thing you do start to see is the phenomenon of like the hate watch. like you're watching the video because you're actually like horrified by it, you know, not because you like it or agree with it. You're just sort of like, look at this idiot. You know, I'm going to sit here and watch it because it's, it's, you know, it's so outrageous to me.
But you'd be surprised, like that also sends kind of a signal and you're gonna see more of that stuff that's going to outrage you that becomes something that you, maybe not even consciously, but you inadvertently buy into this being outraged when you take out your phone. I think the other thing that's interesting about algorithms though is they become sort of the kingmaker. So you used to have like
older days, like older media periods, like we were talking about earlier, the news had to appeal to the audience, right? And the advertiser, but mostly the audience. And now what you see is the content creators who make things because they recognize the algorithm is going to boost them. And so you're creating not so much for the human, like the human is a consideration, but then you're really, you you got to think about what the machine is going to do. Like what is...
What is the title that I put on this video? How many seconds do I, how long should it be, right? Like, and your everything is instrumented. So content creators and influencers can actually see on a dashboard, where do people hit the like button? Where do people drop off? Like where did they, what did they do? At what point did they maybe restart it and watch it again if they ended earlier or something. So you can see all of these different things that give you signal about what the audience wants and what the algorithm
Renee DiResta (18:10.53)
and so the content creation changes because of what the algorithm surfaces and that's sort of an interesting thing. Like we're not just creating for each other anymore, we're creating with this like this sort of force between us.
Tyson (18:23.176)
Yeah, it's like the YouTube is ultimate frustration when they're starting out is they might spend a week making some incredible content and upload it in the thumbnail and the title slightly wrong. And as a result, no one sees it. And it's, it's really interesting to see certain themes. I'm a really keen distance runner. Like that's a big passion of mine. And I've seen on, on YouTube recently like zone two running. I don't know if you're familiar with that. It's just like a zone of heart rate training.
you know, to work on your aerobic system is trending so hard right now. And as a result, every influencer on there is talking about the benefits of zone two heart rate training, which undoubtedly is beneficial, but there's so many incredible topics on the subject. Well, depending on where you sit in relationship to distance running, maybe it's all really boring subjects, but as a distance running fan, there's so many, directions you could take or information you could share. That would be.
really interesting and really helpful, but for whatever reason, the machine's really helping that particular subject flourish at the moment and keywords and things have such a huge reputation. I mean, there's so many angles you can address this conversation because you're obviously got the creator who is trying to walk that line between what they believe and who's paying them. And then you've got the audience who's trying to navigate, okay, what's true and what's false and what's a good argument for me and what's not a good argument for me.
And so there seems to be so many conflicting ideas and so many interruptions to actually helping dig into what is actually real. And this is, mean, I don't know if you saw the whole thing with the Olympic boxer, there was some discussion around gender. Yeah.
Renee DiResta (20:00.67)
yes, whether she was transgender or not. Yeah, no, don't think everybody saw that. think, yeah, that was an international one, huh? That was, yeah.
Tyson (20:09.142)
That was a really interesting one, because it turns out that what people were saying about it, now, full clarity, I actually don't know the outcome or what the actual end of the story was, but I saw, again, a lot of people I trusted saying one thing, and then a number of people I trust come back and say, actually, I'm really sorry, I jumped the gun, I'm not 100 % sure where she fits, but people had bought into this idea, hook line and sinker, and it is interesting, like even me, I'm like, they said that must be true, don't research, whatever.
Even though I'm aware of this little trap, it's wild how it continually seems to get ya.
Renee DiResta (20:42.508)
So don't have, most people don't have time to go and fact check everything and for most of human history you would hear things from your neighbors and your media and that would be the thing that you would think of is true. I describe the book as being about propaganda and influence and I feel like that's because that's how I think about it but I actually spend a ton of time talking about rumors, right? And rumors are not propaganda or least they weren't, now they're heavily used.
But rumors are things that we share with each other because we find them compelling, right? And there's a bunch of really great sort of old books on rumors that talk about things that, know, urban legends, you know, the Proctor and Gamble logo is satanic. had, you know, 666 in the curly cues of the beard, right? This is actually, that is actually a rumor that, you know, quote unquote went viral in the 1980s.
became a nightmare for Procter and Gamble. eventually had to change their logo because people were saying we need to boycott them because they're satanic. And this was something that was spread sort of from person to person. Or just gossip. You you hear something about a political candidate and who they're like sleeping with on the side or whatever. And that becomes a story that maybe the media won't touch, but becomes one of these things where like, well, everybody's saying it, it must be true. And you have to decide like, what is the truth? Is the politician?
you know, doing this thing on the side or are the rumors false? And, you know, the media will say something, the politician themselves may even eventually address it and say something. But you ultimately are going to decide based on who you trust and like what signals you're getting. So social media is really powerful for that. I saw that story go by. And I have to say, I genuinely, on a personal level, do not find these sort of stories
compelling in any way. it's such a, like the entire sort of, you know, the kind of trans athletes stories have always just been the ones where I'm like, okay, this is not my area. This is not a thing that I pay close attention to. And this is not a thing I want to fight on the internet about. I'm not going to go wait into that conversation. So I saw it go by, thought, okay, here's another one, you know, and then, you know, saw the sort of plot twist come out afterwards where, you know, it was
Renee DiResta (23:07.39)
It turned into something where I was like the most interesting thing about this one and why I felt like it was different was that one, you did see people actually apologize. I thought, okay, well, that's positive. At least you don't see people on the internet being wrong lot. But it was such a, you know, the it was a real illustration, I think of the human cost for the person who went through it, right? For that boxer, for that woman who all of a sudden was an international name.
because of this rumor going viral and even, and the unresolved nature of how it felt at the end, was candidly, I stopped paying attention when it stopped showing up in my feed, right? So there may have been a subsequent resolution and it did not occur to me to go and check it and find out because again, this was not a story that I felt personally invested in. And this is the kind of thing that happens all the time, right? People
forming their opinion based on that initial moment of heat, they're deciding based on the people around them and who they trust. Maybe they care enough to go and click through and read a few articles. Otherwise, they just got a million other things going on in their lives. They're busy. This is not the story for them. And they form that opinion. And the facts of the matter, which is going to come out in the newspaper three days later, may not go viral. And then you're just not going to see it. Again, like I said, as far as the last thing I know,
The Russian sporting body or Russian led sporting body that appears to largely be discredited was the one behind the story that she had the XY chromosomes and had failed a testosterone test, but there was no actual documentation. And that was sort of where it stopped in the virality chain for me. So I would have to go and actually Google her name and see where things are. I don't know, I think she was like definitely gonna get a bronze medal last time I saw. I imagine maybe that finals happened too.
But I actually don't know because it hasn't been coming at me because right now the entire social media feed for me is taken over with Kamala Harris announcing her VP pick. And so that's the entirety, that and Elon Musk suing people for not advertising on his platform. That's what's all over my feed. Yours is probably completely different, but that personalization creates sort of like divided realities where I know I'm not seeing the same thing. Like Kamala Harris is running me. That's probably not the...
Tyson (25:19.828)
Yeah.
Renee DiResta (25:31.656)
not the thing in the feeds of people who are really deeply invested in the transgender athletes debate.
Tyson (25:37.926)
For sure. It's so fascinating. And this is what I love. Like one of the things that I love about a conversation like this is you're right. Like my social media feed is completely different. But what I love is having the opportunity to actually sit down and have a conversation with people about what it is that they're seeing. Because one thing that I've realized in a really big way is that there's so many more things that I tend to agree on with people that like on some big things, whether it's politically or whatever, we might disagree on.
Renee DiResta (25:48.056)
Yeah.
Tyson (26:05.812)
I feel like it's very easy to fall into like the emotional heat of going, all right, I'm just going to have nothing to do with this particular person. A classic example, my wife works at a school here and she was laughing last night because she got in the car and she was in the staff room with a number of teachers. And there's like a beautiful quiet kid in one of the classes. And one of the teachers came back into the staff room and was like, I was just talking to so -and -so and he was explaining to me that he's actually a little bit more of a conservative.
politically and one of the other ladies was like, that's so crazy. He seemed like such a lovely kid. And I was like, what a wild, what a wild take, but I can see, especially when, you know, so much of the information and beliefs and bias or whatever emotions that we have about a particular subject from social media might portray the other side of whatever it is, whether it's like a sporting team or a political team or whatever, there's absolute nut jobs with an inability to think.
Renee DiResta (26:38.867)
no.
Renee DiResta (27:01.686)
Right.
Tyson (27:02.654)
And when that's all, when that's all you're seeing, go, my gosh, like you have a conversation like this. Wow. We actually like my mind's been changed or at least got to recognize the fact that a conversation is possible. I mean, you probably know better than anyone else how the internet divides with, so many of these heated structures or heated conversations.
Renee DiResta (27:21.986)
Yeah.
I think context is lost, tone is lost. I was in a group chat, very, very, very politically diverse group chat, and the topic of weird came up. I don't know if this has made its way, are you guys talking about this too? So one of the things happening in the current American political discourse is the labeling of Trump advance as weird. I find this,
Tyson (27:45.605)
yeah, it did, yep. Yes.
Renee DiResta (27:50.338)
fascinating like from an academic standpoint. I think this is like absolutely incredible because it's that idea of like ridicule just sort of really basic almost playground level ridicule is actually in some ways the most effective way to go after an opponent because they feel like it's plausible enough. You're not making an absolutely hyperbolic thing. You know, you say something like Nazi and people like British or hyperbole a lot of the time when you say weird.
that feels more personal. And so we've ended up having this whole debate about the idea of weird, but it was interesting to me because I saw it almost as like, from a disinterested standpoint, I thought, I appreciate the efficacy of this strategy. I think this is a very interesting strategy. And there were a lot of people who found it like so incredibly offensive.
And I actually was really struggling to... Okay, but help me understand why? What is it about this that really gets to you? And even in group chats where there's an assumption of goodwill, it becomes a very defensive response almost, this idea that it's like a...
Renee DiResta (29:14.082)
that it's like an attack on your identity as a person because by proxy, by labeling a political candidate that you like weird, like you yourself are weird. And as a person who does not feel that similar relationship to candidates that I am interested in, I thought it was sort of just an interesting perspective that I hadn't really been aware of. So I think it's useful to have those. You mentioned your sister. For me, it's more colleagues and friends in.
smaller spaces like group chats where you can discuss these things and try to get a sense of how people are feeling and hear their perspectives on it as opposed to doing it on social media where there's that performative aspect and you have to be attacking the other person because that's what you're all there for. So this notion of smaller groups I think is actually much healthier in the long run than massive performative social media platforms.
Tyson (30:08.436)
Yeah, it took me a minute to remember what you're referring to with weird, but yeah, certainly. I know exactly what you're talking about. It is funny. It is funny that that is something that triggers so much offense for, for any people. First of all, because like, regardless of what side of that conversation you're on, I mean, there's plenty of content to justify your statement. You only have to watch a little bit and you go, okay, that was a bit strange. Like you've got a little bit there, but I'm not sure why we constantly seem to fall back in politically to this idea
Renee DiResta (30:11.564)
the weird thing. Yeah, I didn't know if this was part of again.
Renee DiResta (30:27.025)
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tyson (30:38.242)
you know, it's just facts and truth and details. Like there's obviously so much emotion that goes behind the arguments or, you know, the, sort of propaganda for lack of a better description that you're trying to share with people. I mean, when it comes to weed, you're right. Like it certainly does, at least intensify the emotion that, you know, two separate parties feel about that conversation, you know, sort of depending on where you see it from.
What was it about that one that was so interesting to you? Was it just the technique more than anything that was being
Renee DiResta (31:11.306)
the weird thing. There was, yeah, there's this book from the 1960s called Rules for Radicals and it's by a guy named Saul Alinsky. And I've always found it sort of fascinating as this piece of political literature because there are certain books that are almost like propaganda guidebooks, right? And it's telling people at a moment in time, this is how you do propaganda effectively.
And I always think those books are interesting. There's different styles of them in the 1920s and 1940s. This one's from the 1960s, if I'm not mistaken. And what he's doing in there is he's giving people guidelines for how people on the far left, right? So he's sort of the socialist left, right? And he's giving people guidelines in like how to do radical politics. And he makes this point that one thing that establishment
People cannot abide is being ridiculed right and so he says ridicule is man's most potent weapon And he goes into like why that is and like a sort of multi multi -page explanation of like the psychology but also from a tactical standpoint how hard it is to refute and There's another thing that he says in this list of guidelines, which is a good tactic is one that your people enjoy right
And I was thinking about those two things together. felt like those two things together were just, this was the sort of platonic ideal. This was like the realization of those two pieces and like guiding political thought. How do you do an effective propaganda, like an effective attack on your opponent? And it's by making your own fans, your own supporters really enjoy it. And...
The weird thing was like, was so easy for other people to run with, right? Did you guys see the couch? Did the couch story make its way to Australia? J .D. Vanson is couch. No, I'm sorry. I'm so like extremely online and like American. There was this allegation, a random person on the internet, random poster made this post in which he said,
Tyson (33:08.662)
What was, I bet you I did, it's just gonna take me 15 seconds to remember what we did. What was the couch story?
Renee DiResta (33:26.67)
hope that this isn't like a G -rated podcast, and I'm allowed to say this, but okay. It said something to the effect of, know, JD Vance acknowledges that he had sex with his couch, and then it gives a citation, Vance, comma, Hillbilly LRG, comma, page 179 to 181. The same way, you if you're writing like a legitimate academic paper, you throw that citation in there. This wouldn't have made, this wouldn't have gone viral the way it did, but for the fact that he implied that this claim,
that JD Vance had sex with his couch was in JD Vance's own book and he gives the specific page numbers and this goes viral. This is everywhere. And then the idea that JD Vance had sex with his couch. What's funny about it is again, people aren't seriously believing this, right? They know it's bullshit, but they find it so funny that all of the memes start and then JD Vance in his couch. I was in Asia actually. I was in Asia when this was happening. I was in...
Tyson (34:17.429)
You're a yiddy.
Renee DiResta (34:24.684)
I think I was in Taiwan. I was in Tokyo in Taiwan recently. I think I was in Taiwan. And I'd explain over dinner to people who do not spend their entire life on the internet, like, what was happening in American politics and what was the story about JD Vance. And it was literally random on the internet. Shit posted this thing. And then millions of people saw it and thousands of people decided that they needed to get in on the action because this was so funny.
Tyson (34:50.112)
You
Renee DiResta (34:50.318)
And again, I was just thinking about it in the context of this book, this sort of guidebook for how do you do attack politics well. And I was like, this is just, it's just here it is. 40 years later or whatever on the internet. No, so that was the other thing where I was like, okay, how's he gonna handle it? There's this rumor about the couch. I was like, what is the resolution gonna be? Obviously we all know it's false. The question was, was he gonna say that it was false?
Tyson (35:03.318)
Did he have to address it? Did JD Vance come out and address it at all?
Renee DiResta (35:20.16)
or was he gonna say nothing? so then this, John Oliver, this comedian, everybody knows who John Oliver is, okay. So John Oliver says, he does a whole segment on how JD Vance hasn't denied it because he didn't deny it. So then he hasn't denied it, I don't know, I mean, he's not denying it. But if he had denied it, they would have just made fun of him differently, right? You're damned if you do, damned if you don't in that moment. he very seriously was like, this is not true, I never had.
relations with my couch, like that would have been a whole other set of beams because it's so absurd the idea that a serious, you know, political figure, a senator would need to defend himself like that. So you just wind up in this like really whatever direction you go, I think the only thing he could have done and what I was waiting to see if he did do was got in on the joke himself, you know, right? And he didn't do that. And I thought it was an interesting choice because I felt
Tyson (36:13.579)
Yes.
Renee DiResta (36:20.024)
There's always been this sense that in the United States, at least, the political right is just better at memes and shitposting and like that kind of, you know, rough and tumble kind of internet discourse, whereas the left is more buttoned up in establishment and so on and so forth. So to watch it kind of confront the people who are normally extremely online and not see him try to get in on the joke, I think was, I was sort of surprised by that. that instead people started
to complain about, like his supporters started to complain that these memes were very mean. And that just made people want to create them even more. So was just watching this like microcosm of the discourse, you know.
Tyson (36:58.144)
for sure.
Tyson (37:01.802)
For sure. I love the fact that there was any JD Vance supporters complaining about the meanness of the memes because I've seen plenty of the memes created by JD Vance supporters and also very mean. But you're right, like that ridicule factor is an amazing tactic because like what does JD Vance do in that situation apart from, as you say, joining the game? Like, be careful when you drink, folks. My wife was fine with it or whatever it was. It's a no -win situation, but you're right. Hey, it's so funny just that idea
Renee DiResta (37:08.014)
Hahaha
Renee DiResta (37:12.588)
Right.
Renee DiResta (37:25.194)
I'm
Tyson (37:31.624)
of seeing someone, you know, that we're supposed to take seriously who's buttoned up in a suit and tie and, you know, now the potential vice president or running mate or whatever. yeah, good luck to you. The meme culture is an interesting one as well, because it's like a, a completely different direction on these, like on this attempt to tell. It's not even about truth really, is it? Like when we're talking memes, we're not necessarily interested in truth as much as, as much as humor. Yeah.
Renee DiResta (37:43.98)
Yeah
Renee DiResta (37:58.028)
No, not at all, no. Humor, and I think it's signaling that you're part of an in -group. That's the other thing that's the really important part, which is like, get the joke because I'm part of it. I recognize this picture. I know what this picture signifies because I'm part of the community that understands that thing. so not all memes go as crazy viral as that one did. But there's
But the thing is, they become sticky, right? And that's the other piece of them that I think is interesting, which is this couch story, as ridiculous as it is, went for, I would say, solid 48 hours. And it's going to come back, right? That's the thing. It's always going to be in the back people's minds. It's always going to be a thing that they pull out, at least, again, always maybe through the November election. But you'll see it. You'll see it recur, because people remix it. That's the whole point. That's the thing that makes memes fun.
Tyson (38:57.788)
You said before that it's impossible to obviously fact check everything that you read online like this. So it's just too much. The new cycle changes so quickly.
Renee DiResta (39:06.742)
I forgot one piece, as you said that it jogged my mind. Somebody, the Associated Press wrote a fact check and the headline was, No JD Vance did not have sex with his couch. And this was just like, this was like the Associated Press. This is like an extremely serious neutral button. This is not Rolling Stone. This is the Associated Press. No JD Vance did not have sex with his couch. So of course people clip that.
This is where I saw it and I was like, my God, this is amazing. Because, you know, again, it gets back to like, we talk a lot in academia about like, sometimes the fact check amplifies the thing that nobody has seen. And this was this example where I was like, this is going to have a whole second life because of the stupid fact check. And then they pulled the fact check, right? Somebody at Associated Press actually, like first they tried to change the headline so that it wasn't a meme itself. And he was very like, they tried to rewrite it even more neutrally.
Then there were people like, there's no way the Associated Press could know that. The headline should be, no, JD Vance did not write in his book that he has sex with his couch. then it goes, so then people are attacking the Associated Press, like mocking the idea of this thing being a fact check. And then they pull the entire thing. And then this gives people, then the sort of like, internet jokers are like,
Tyson (40:13.759)
Hahaha!
Renee DiResta (40:30.808)
Well, look, the Associated Press has retracted it now. What does that tell us? So you have this really funny online cultural moment then compounded by like the media, probably quite earnestly trying, you know, I imagine the headline writer thought it was funny. Like I don't see how you couldn't honestly, but trying to figure out what to do about it and only making matters worse. And that was the, yeah, that was the.
Tyson (40:35.638)
That is amazing.
Tyson (40:53.814)
That was the wrong response by the associate. I could have told him not to do that. Like every now and then I watch an official movie and I go, no, no, like I'm just a, I'm a guy from Melbourne, Australia. You should have just, you should have shot me a message. I was like, just leave it. let's just read it. It's going to be done in 48 hours. Just relax. So what was the actual reference? Have you looked at the page of his
Renee DiResta (41:06.574)
This one doesn't need a fact check. It was nothing. Yeah, I think people did go look at I didn't exactly I was like I said, I was in I was in Taiwan and like I had a copy handy but no, it was God, it was like maybe him describing like being in school or something like that. You know, it was like, it was literally this they actually did track down the poster, right? The original poster like maybe
A week later, think Business Insider found, I think, a him. This is sort of like in a non -account. And, you know, and he sort of like went through his line of thinking, which is like, I just thought it would be really funny to do this. And I knew I had to add that detail in order to, you know, give it that, that presence in people's minds. Like that was what was going to make it funny. So he was sort of describing, you know, he sort of like publishes a lot of jokes and things like this.
Yeah, so they did, he wound up setting his account to private because he didn't want like, he didn't want any more attention after it really, I think, I think he thought it was going to be some small number of people in his following, you know, maybe a few thousand, maybe 10, 20 ,000 were going to engage. And then all of sudden it becomes the entire American political discourse for 48 hours.
Tyson (42:26.804)
Isn't it amazing the things that take off? Like there's pages dedicated to this idea of meme culture and just trying to get something trending and every now and then something like that will just have a fuse lit and something about it just hits a chord with people. mean, I can just, that was the first time I'd heard of that. But like the images that it creates in your mind are first of all, like terrifying. That second of all, it's just such a funny, it's just such a ridiculous conversation to have like this idea
Renee DiResta (42:29.196)
Yeah!
Renee DiResta (42:46.596)
Yes.
Tyson (42:55.274)
Like it's so degrading and so gross and so funny. Like why, why is it? I don't understand why that one took off, but I kind of do.
Renee DiResta (43:03.926)
I know it's one of these things where you're like, you know, you never know. There are, I spent some time in the book talking about when it happens to ordinary people, I think is when you see the real, you know, for a political figure, particularly during a presidential campaign, I think there's an expectation, right? That, you know, you're gonna be in this contact politics kind of thing and somebody calling you weird is like, you know, the same, you've got.
of them calling Kamala the DEI candidate, you know, and kind of going off about how she rose to power and so on and so forth, which was a big part of the American discourse before the JD Vance announcement, I think, or maybe right after. trying to remember what the timeline was on that. But what you do also see is like the unexpected ones. Like there was a woman who made a post. I didn't even know where she lived. don't know if she was US or UK or what, but she just said like, I really love to have coffee with my husband in the garden in the morning.
We talk every morning and I love him so much, right? And it was just this genuine thought that you sit there, you have a thought, you type it on your thumbs, or like, my life is so great right now in this moment. And then the internet came for her and they were like, this is the most privileged post. I mean, how do you think this makes people who don't have husbands feel, gardens, coffee, tea, know, whatever the hell it was. And they just attacked her and she becomes this thing trends as this poor random woman.
Tyson (44:06.505)
Sure
Renee DiResta (44:30.132)
expressed a thought on the internet and all of a sudden the entire internet had a response for her and and you never know man it's like somebody says a thing an influencer with a large following boosts it enough people react an algorithm gets in the game the trending topic you know pushes it up to more people who also then either have a response because after the initial rage response to this poor woman with her like i love to have coffee in the garden with my husband comment
then the wave of people attacking the people who attacked her began, right? And then it just becomes like the, it was like free for all, you know, it's free for all on the internet. you know, it's like, it's these moments that are so stupid and so fleeting and there's like so many dozens of them, you know, in any given day. yeah, yeah, yeah, that was another, I was Googling her, like,
Tyson (45:19.018)
like hot to a cheek.
Renee DiResta (45:26.754)
yesterday actually because I was kind of curious where things had gone because a lot of the time someone will do something they'll briefly become internet famous and then there's a phenomenon it's called the milkshake duck right where it comes from a meme actually where there's a the meme basically is like a duck drinking a milkshake and people are saying like look there's a duck drinking a milkshake it's so cute and then the next panel is like we were got to inform you the duck is racist
And so it's this idea of being milkshake ducked is that you're this person who attracts attention for some good reason, or some at least anodyne reason, and everybody pays attention to you. And then somebody goes and digs and finds the one thing you said once when you were 12 or whatever, and then they go for you. And then the internet comes for you and they decide that you've been a bad person all along. And this is a pretty common arc. And I'm sort
curious to see if that was how it was gonna play out in this case, because she kind of ceased to be as much in the forefront. But it seems like she's just kind of making the rounds doing podcasts and things and I think trying to figure out what her, she has actually an interesting life story. I she does have sort of a compelling everyday person, normal person kind of vibe to her. And yeah, I think it's, again, you
This is the internet just like makes people famous sometimes and yeah, you never quite know
Tyson (46:54.702)
I remember it was, it was not long, maybe like a week or two into her going absolutely viral was the Trump assassination attempt. And I saw someone post after that. what did he say? It was like silence around the hot twa chick is deafening. Like, I thought that's so true. Like I was wondering, I was wondering what the, what the catalyst to stop us talking about this. Cause it just blew my mind how, how much that one trended as well.
Renee DiResta (47:13.398)
Tyson (47:24.304)
yeah, you can't, it seems like the harder that you try to get something trending like that, the less effective it is. It's always just these, as you say, whether it's the JD Vance having sex with his couch or the hot twirl chick. it's like the accidental, the accidental, viral post is the one that seems to get the most traction. What I was going to ask you, and I've got my eye on the clock. know, I can hear your kids in the background. I'm so glad, I've got.
Renee DiResta (47:38.087)
Hahaha
Renee DiResta (47:47.448)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, it's dinnertime, sorry. That's okay, they're fed.
Tyson (47:51.254)
No, no, if you got to go as well, you just, feel free to let me know. Dinner's going cold. But I mean, I've got the beautiful tool of noise reduction in the background. So it doesn't bother me as long as it doesn't bother you. was going to ask you about the, the fact, the fact checking stuff as we sort of established, okay. We all know the new cycle is short and sweet. It's just like constant. you're not going to have a chance to fact check everything. What do you do? Like, how do you actually navigate your way through a new cycle?
Renee DiResta (48:01.605)
Bye.
Renee DiResta (48:08.019)
yeah.
Renee DiResta (48:17.482)
Yeah, I actually do go back, like after this conversation I'll go back and I'll look at the boxer lady actually. There's, in the moment I do, if I see something that I think is like outrageous or something that I think is weird or, you
And the last thing I saw was something about, I have a specific example in mind. There was a post that was sent into a group chat that I was in. And it said something about how some state laws had just been changed so that pictures of mail -in ballots were going to be made publicly accessible in the US through the FOIAs, right, through Freedom of Information Act requests.
And I thought, that doesn't sound good. Like, how much information are they going to reveal? Are people going to get harassed? Is this a voter intimidation sort of thing? Like, this is, you know, this doesn't seem so great. Why would a judge find in that direction? And the people who were sharing, sort of the posts that were shared into this group that I was in, was people who were like gloating about it, right? Who seemed to be implying that that was the direction it was going to go. And I was like, I wonder if this is real. And I guess I should go Google
Like I don't want to amplify it, I don't want to forward it on, but I want to know if it's real. so, you know, so I basically just, I went and I Googled and I found an election law blog that had written about it the day prior. And it turns out the facts as laid out were correct. Like this was the decision, this was a court case that was found. But the kind of description of what was going to be made available was exaggerated and wrong.
And for me, that was kind of an example of this particular one was one that I had found kind of disturbing, just on a personal level. I didn't like it. I thought it was like a bad policy, bad court decision. I could have just clicked the reshare button or forwarded it along. But I feel like now at this point, I've seen too many of these things that are like half true, not true.
Renee DiResta (50:31.382)
And then you kind of feel like an idiot afterwards. so I wait a long time before I go get in on being outraged. In the book, I talk about this moment that happened in the US where these kids were, these kids with MAGA hats on, Trump's supporting kids were at this march.
And the entire internet got very, very mad thinking that they were in a fight with this Native American elder because of this one image that had gone viral and what it looked like. And I was in California at the time. So I woke up three hours after the outreach had started, East Coast, three hours apart. And I remember watching that. Again, this was a thing where I didn't personally care. I didn't feel invested in the story. I didn't feel compelled to add my two cents.
But I did watch it as it played out because it was all over my feed. the subsequent videos, like every two hours, there was this new bit of information released that made it seem like the thing that everybody had been mad about was actually wrong, right? That the Native American elder approached these children, not the other way around.
there was a third group who doesn't even appear in the original photo of this group called the Hebrew Israelites that were standing there kind of screaming at the kids, right? That the Native American elder actually steps in between them and is trying to diffuse the situation. There were so many different pieces of it where if you formed your opinion based on the one photo, you were gonna read it differently depending on your, you know, your sort of preconceived beliefs. And that one's always stuck with me as an example of.
why you should wait to be mad on the internet because these moments, you really run the risk of forming an incorrect judgment. And while you're kind of Googling, waiting for the fact check to be written, it's possible that there's just not going to be a lot of information out there. And so you have to give things a little bit of time for the fact check to even come through. that question of like, we expect information instantaneously.
Tyson (52:19.957)
Thank you.
Renee DiResta (52:44.782)
But to actually do a proper fact check, you have to call people up, Or watch footage or go to a scene and you can't do that in 30 seconds from your home computer. So it takes time.
Tyson (52:59.166)
Yeah, I like that advice of just slowing down before you respond because I've seen, as I said at the start, like plenty of apologies based around this Algerian boxer. Yeah. People saying, okay. Like you're a man and you're like, crap, maybe you're not. I'm so sorry. That must be so insulting. but you're right. Like, especially with a subject like that, a lot of the time when we're talking about a person as well, a lot of the time you, kind of forget the, the person behind the story, don't you?
Renee DiResta (53:08.62)
Right, right, right, right.
Renee DiResta (53:22.646)
Right, that they're real. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tyson (53:24.704)
Like whether it's the Algerian or JD Vance, it's just like a, it's a hilarious story or it's a shocking story or it's a terrible, like a terrifying story. And, and that's the extent to nearly everyone talking about it, apart from the one person that you're talking about. Even here, like I saw an Australian who didn't perform as well as what he wanted to at the Olympics. He, he put up a post the other day, Oli Ho, just to say that he's, he's turning off social media for a while. Cause he couldn't believe how bad
the heckling got about his performance at the Olympics in the 1500. And I thought that's interesting like to, cause I'd seen the criticism, but I honestly in amongst all the criticism, I don't think I'd thought about Oli once. I just thought about why it was that people were saying what they were saying. And yeah, that idea of it having any emotional impact was just, you know, the furthest thing from my
Renee DiResta (54:13.868)
No, is, it's very depersonalizing. That I think is where there's a bunch of research around like why are norms on the internet, why is it so normal to go and brigade and harass people? And it's because there is that element of depersonalization and there are things that you wouldn't say to your conservative or liberal neighbor who you actually know in the real world and have to see at the barbecue or the church or whatever.
But you don't even think twice about saying it to some internet anon. And that depersonalization, I think, is one of the reasons why it feels almost normal to do and say that stuff. it's not healthy. think most people, think about it, you don't do it. Per the point, the JD Vance thing was very mean. I think there's also a sense now that this is politics. Yeah, yeah.
Tyson (55:10.336)
But as we said, hilarious. That's right. I mean, you got to have thick skin. I would have given up already if I was him. It's just, it's one of those things I'm like, just don't, even with my wife, sometimes she'll say something in like a mildly off tone. And I'm like, what do you, what do you mean? She's like, mate, toughen up. Like everything's going to be fine. Hey, before I let you go, Renee, what have you got on the cards at the moment? Are there any new books in the works or are there any new projects that you're in?
Renee DiResta (55:14.001)
Ha ha.
Renee DiResta (55:18.414)
Hahaha
Renee DiResta (55:37.57)
I'm doing a bunch of stuff on, I have a couple fun things. I've got some stuff on looking at this thing, Shrimp Jesus. Did Shrimp Jesus make it to Australia? It was like Facebook AI scams. So I study like, know, adversarial abuse online and by far the most fun stuff sometimes are the spammers
I've been down this rabbit hole of AI -generated cat videos on TikTok with six million views. Because my job is to try to understand why that is happening. How does that happen? What is the reason by which? Is it the algorithm? Is there some interesting manipulation happening? So I've got a little bit of work on AI -generated stuff on TikTok and Facebook,
these pages that are racking up millions and millions of views rendering images of Jesus in crustacean form. So it is Jesus is faced with like crab claws. And I started looking at this back in December, I wrote a paper on it. Surprisingly, again, this question of like what hits, know, there's a lot of like really serious things that I do and write about and know, child safety, state propagandists, all kinds of serious stuff. This stupid article on
Shrimp Jesus was a thing that got more media inbound on that investigation because I think because it was weird. Again, it really gets back to that idea that this is something that makes you stop and stare and say, what on earth is that? I actually had it on my computer when I was screenshotting the images for the article and my 10 -year -old walked in and he was like, what are you doing? was like, I'm all screened at this big vertical monitor.
Tyson (57:18.176)
Hahaha!
Tyson (57:22.67)
You
Renee DiResta (57:22.818)
huge vertical monitor covered with pictures of Jesus as a shrimp. I was like, it's work, it's work. So, well, I, you know, actually, yeah, actually I am, I had roped him in to one of these AI generated page projects I was doing because I needed somebody to just scroll to the end of a Facebook feed. Cause there were some things I was looking at where content creators that used to make totally normal content, like they would post pictures of their meals and stuff like
Tyson (57:31.784)
Is that how you explained it? That would be so wild seeing your mum just looking at shrimp jingles.
Renee DiResta (57:52.75)
had pivoted into using AI -generated images to get their audience, like to capture attention. And for a bunch of these pages, I just needed to know the date on which that had happened. And unfortunately, there was no other way to do it than to scroll to the bottom. So I literally enlisted my 10 -year -old to sit there with his finger on my laptop. So I just keep scrolling, tell me the date, let's go down this whole list together. So no, he knows what I do. I think he thinks it's weird, but.
But yeah, so I have some fun, you know, fun like little papers like that, you know, some election misinformation, election rumors work that I'm doing now. And then, I don't know, I've been trying to think of after November, what projects do I want to take on? And I do think this question of like, the, you know, what political smears look like now is something that I'm very interested in. And I think I'll probably spend some more time kind of analyzing that stuff too.
Tyson (58:47.274)
Are you gonna be going into a real sweet spot with that? What? What do you got three or four months left? There's gonna be, did you say slurs or smears? Smears.
Renee DiResta (58:54.289)
smears smears. Yeah, that's the, I don't know if you guys, the, yeah, smear campaign or smear attack is the, yeah.
Tyson (58:59.572)
Yep. Yep. I think we have our version of that, but it's less effective with a smaller budget than American politics. So ours just looks like a second rate take off of what you guys are doing so effectively.
Renee DiResta (59:11.022)
I know, the American exports, right?
Tyson (59:15.008)
I love it. Now I love it. you're an absolute legend. That was so fun. That was seriously a lot of fun. Thanks for making the time and for everyone listening, I'll make sure I've got the book linked in the show notes for the episode. Is there anything else you want to plug or anything else you'd like to tell people about? No, that's it. Awesome. Renee, you're a legend. Hey, thanks so much. Cheers. I'll cut that off there. Seriously, so fun. That was, I hope you didn't mind how random.
Renee DiResta (59:20.31)
Yeah, it was.
Renee DiResta (59:28.51)
No! Nope. That's it. Alright, appreciate you having me on. Thanks so much. Take care. Bye.