067 | Mikko Koskinen | Translating a Local Category to New Markets | Kyrö Distillery

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 67 of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, host Chris Maffeo continues his conversation with Mikko Koskinen, co-founder of Kyrö Distillery, from the previous episode.

They discuss the integration of food and drink culture in society, the challenges of building a brand, and exporting distillery products.

Mikko shares his insights on market dynamics, cultural references, and the importance of personal involvement in brand growth.

The discussion also emphasizes the significance of long-term planning and adaptability in the spirits industry.

00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview

00:23 Cultural Integration of Food and Drink

01:41 Nordic Whiskey and Food Culture

03:49 Export Strategies and Market Penetration

07:44 Challenges in Distribution and Brand Building

12:09 Importance of Local Knowledge and Experimentation

18:17 Entrepreneurial Insights and Personal Stories

35:53 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Mikko Koskinen

Co-founder | Kyrö Distillery Company

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

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Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the My Third Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Maffeo.
In episode 67, I continue the

conversation with Mik Kokoskin
and Co, founder of CUDA

Distillery from episode 66.
I hope you will enjoy our chat.

One last thing, if you enjoy
this podcast, you will also like

the My Third Drinks guides.
You can subscribe free or paid

on my third drinks.com.
I'm biased on this because I'm

very fascinated by how the food
and drink culture like

integrates within the society
and how does that brings, you

know, the people and taste and
memories.

And then, you know, I remember
when I did the WSCT level 2IN

spirits, I was doing it with
Nick Ryan, a great teacher in

Ireland.
And it was during COVID, so it

was an online thing.
And then he sends, you know, the

samples over.
I was the only known Anglo-Saxon

of the students and he was
explaining it in a very

Anglo-Saxon kind of taste, you
know, like candies that they had

in Reason and Island, you know,
that I've never tasted or

marshmallows and all this kind
of stuff that I'm not really

that common in easily.
I mean, when I grew up.

And then, like, we had to try to
find a way.

And it was a funny, nice
exercise among everybody to

actually try to teach me what I
was supposed to smell and taste

because I couldn't mention, you
know, it tastes like, I don't

know, oysters.
And if you've never tasted

oysters, you have no idea what
I'm talking about.

But maybe I can talk about, you
know, the salty elements, you

know, like the viscosity, you
know, And then all of a sudden,

even if you haven't tasted it,
you try to figure out what it is

now.
That is exactly true.

Nordics are very keen on smoky
whiskies.

I think Whedon is the biggest
market for like some of the ila

distilleries and we don't miss
what like maybe twice the size

of Finland, but it comes on food
culture.

We love smoked fish or meat,
smoked ham and so forth.

And we associate like smell and
smell of smoke with something

positive.
Whereas in other countries it

might be somebody burnt like
pilots of trash where you grew

up and you associate smoke with
black dirt and disgusting

things.
So for us, one of our whiskey is

called wood smoke and we use
grain that is smoked in a barn.

And that's something that
existed like hundreds of years

as a way to to dry the grain.
It's not part of welding

process, but it's like preparing
and making sure that it doesn't

mold.
And that brings like certain

very, very specific flavors that
like scenes can describe.

And if there's a mixed group,
what I, I do is that I, instead

of asking like, what are the
flavors that they get from this,

I ask like, what's the location
where the spirit brings them to

you?
And that way like that becomes a

little bit more relatable.
Like people have been talking

about the sauna close to like
stables.

So.
That's something that is like

something necessarily not but
stables or like what they keep

horses.
That's something that is

universal.
And it's also interesting to see

and hear this.
People like often shared that

it's something that like when
they were growing up, there was

this one place and it brings
that person to that time and

place in their childhood.
And I think that's also one of

the like most beautiful things
that you can get out of spirits

and especially whiskey.
It's like it can like transcend

you to a different time and
place.

It's beautiful how you can train
your nose and you know, and

palates to to smell things that
probably, you know, like some

even some years ago you didn't
smell or or or could taste.

No, also because it develops as
well.

And let's talk about like how to
go from the home turf to the

full Nordic Baltic cluster as a
whole market in a way, like from

a Finnish perspective, because
of what we just said about

cultural references and way of
consuming food and so on.

But when you go to different
kind of places, you know, like

I'm always having this kind of
battle with brands that sell to

too many countries too quickly,
you know, and I always say, you

know, put your eggs in a few
baskets, you know, not all eggs

in one basket, but don't break
the eggs and try to split them

in 70 baskets.
Because if you have 12 eggs and

21 markets, then it becomes a
bit of 1/2 an egg kind of thing.

So what what?
What is the approach that you

took to export the cuter
distillery?

I think we've had like hybrid
approach.

We've done the same things that
most of the people have done,

which is think of a country and
then you contact distributor and

then yourselves to the country.
Usually you would sell like

somewhere around 20,000 to
€50,000 worth per country.

That's when you don't
necessarily get the most value

out of the brand that you've
built in my mind because you

kind of, you serve a need that I
like to call, I want to drink

something special.
If you're different from what

like already exists, people will
choose you.

And the same goes with like,
there's a lot of small breweries

in the world that cater to, OK,
so now if I want to drink a

local IPA, and then there's the
local brewery that has an IPA

and you drink it.
But it doesn't mean that they

have done something spectacular
or that they have the capacity

to grow, grow bigger.
If you like to like talking to

distributors a lot, emailing
back and forth, that's what you

do.
We've also done a couple of

things where we grew a local
market.

Our current CEO Yone, he spent a
year in Chicago and built the

brand in in that location and
basically New England and so

forth.
We have wider distribution now,

but by having the founder
present, I think we, we gained a

lot of goodwill build the
relationships that are are

really important to grow a
brand.

And the bottle actually meant
something for the bartenders and

not just like something new and
interesting that you got from

your local sales Rep, but it's
something that you know the

person who is building that.
I personally, when COVID hit, I

moved to Germany and I ran
growth engine model in Berlin

for two years.
We grew like our volumes in

Berlin, I think sixfold and
Germany threefold in in two

years.
Then the world changed quite a

bit when the like Ukraine war
decided and COVID ended and

called a consumer preferences
ended.

And that approach gave us
condolence worth of like smaller

market in one country.
And Germany is 16 times bigger

than Finland.
So like you can bet you could

basically.
And you should treat each

regions like you would.
I think you kind of have to

treat them as like new country
if you want to build the brand

and gain like meaningful volumes
in one country.

Suddenly enough, it's faster to
get to Berlin from Helsinki than

to distillery.
So there's also that like

proximity.
I know that like you can make

visits and if you want or needs
to do for family reasons like

day trips, that's something that
is possible and that's something

that you can't do if you've
spread yourself to.

So if I understand correctly, so
you had a bit of a hybrid

solution.
So you, you were doing the usual

game of getting in touch with
distributors, whether they, you

know, they discovered you or
you, you discovered them or you

look for them.
But then also like you, you took

some big bets, you know, with
Chicago and Berlin.

So really moving there for
London as well.

You really, let's say walk the
talk like in the sense of, you

know, like being really being
there and, and walking the

streets and selling yourself.
There is an element that for me

having managed many, many, many
markets, you know, like either

you have a certain AMP that you
generate from that market that

you know, you can reinvest
obviously, or you are there

yourself or you, you send
somebody there.

Or let's say you pay the
distributor to have somebody

there.
You know, but a distributor by

himself or herself, like they're
not going to move the needle

that much for you because you
know, they're going to buy.

And you know, you, you managed
to sell in, as you said, you

know, like you managed to sell
€20,000 or €50,000 of stuff.

Then until they don't deplete
that selling, then basically

they're not going to reorder.
And then if you're just waiting

for the cycle of phone call to
do and then it's like, yeah,

what happened with that thing?
Are we still having, we're good

to go, no worries, call us in
six months because we are not

there yet, you know, so, so, but
for me, you know, there is no

shortcut.
It's the first time to be honest

that I heard that the founder
move in there and and really put

the the so-called skin in the
game because there is this

tendency that I don't like.
And I've been guilty myself in

the past, you know, of blaming
the other in the ecosystem.

You know, the owner blames the
distributor and the distributor

blames the wholesalers and the
wholesaler blames the bar and

the bar manager blames the the
bartenders that don't do what he

says.
And, and it's like, you know,

stop kicking the can down the
road, you know, pick up this

bloody can, you know, and do
something with it.

There's no right or wrong
because it depends on the market

or the circumstances.
I mean, you mentioned big

things, you know, like the COVID
times, the Ukraine war, you

know, like you mentioned, quite
revolutionary, you know,

exogenous things that happen.
But even without them, you know

you need to put something into
the into that market because you

know either you are there or you
put some money there or you

support it somehow.
Otherwise the the case is the

move.
Yeah.

I think it is an extremely,
extremely tricky thing because

in the value of saying the
interests are not the light.

So the brand owner wants to sell
like wants a distributor to sell

as much of their brand as
possible and the distributor

wants to maximize the money that
they get from a sales call.

And then the bar owner wants to
maximize their own business.

And these are not necessarily
aligned.

And especially if you want to
train or you want to reach the

end consumers using that route
is really, really long.

And unless you have, I know,
amazing existing distribution,

it is really hard to create new
brands.

Most of the distillery brands
that we've seen, they are kind

of local and that's usually
because they, I think because

they do have direct contact to
the end consumer and they know

the market, they know the inside
they, they can react, they can

do publicity stunts and so
forth.

And especially when you like
when you move away from your own

country, quite often you, you
are treated as like the local

hero.
And when you move away from that

country like suddenly in our
case like Finnish whiskey don't

like means completely different
thing like you could be also

Polish whiskey or check whiskey
in the context of Germans.

So you need to figure out ways
to bring the brand to life due

to like liquid on lips and so
forth.

Growing a brand is essentially
changing like people behavior of

what they drink and what they
order and what they choose.

And it is really hard to do
unless you can put in us in for

effort on it.
So what we did was we allocated

good amount of marketing budget,
but instead of spreading that to

the whole Germany or to Europe,
we took by Germany's AMP and

essentially focused I think
couple of kids is in Berlin to

begin with.
And that's when we outstand the

idea for example in those like
small areas and we could see

that that actually like had an
impact.

At the same time that was the
rise of quick commerce.

So we suddenly had like full
distribution in the whole of

Berlin, which meant that
anything that we did to

marketing wise like people could
actually go and order it right

away their home.
That worked really, really well.

Now market and and dynamics have
changed a little bit.

I still think that it is hard to
grow a brand unless you unless

you were like over invest.
If you don't have money, it

might be your time.
We've spent like 3 founder years

or actually 4 founder years
building our export, like

completely dedicating point of
power founders to death mark.

This is the ultimate thing, you
know, like it's either either

money or time or or both, but
you know, it it it needs, it

needs time.
And this is like what I think

many brand owners misunderstand.
There's always this black and

white view of the world know
that it's either a big company

or a small company.
For example, like what, what

you, what you mention about, you
know, like putting the AMP into

one city or if, if you see this,
you know what I see whenever I

travel and whenever I work with
brands.

Big companies have huge budgets.
But if you have like a dedicated

budget available, you know, your
small brands budget may not be

that different than your
competitor within the portfolio

of the big company, you know,
because then they may be out of

the priority or maybe they don't
get AMP because, you know, they

think of the portfolio and maybe
the three top selling brands

have a huge AMP, but you know,
they cannot spend it on the

smaller brands.
So then you can actually fight

that smaller brands there.
So you need to be flexible and

and agile into what you're
doing.

But definitely you need to
decide what the priorities are.

And in my past, we've always
done, you know, city strategies

when I was saying, you know,
country manager Nordisk was

actually, you know, basically
Helsinki, Stockholm, Oslo,

Gothenburg, Copenhagen, Tallinn,
you know, like the the rest of

the country, of course, the
brand is available, but you're

not not actually doing anything
to to move it, so to say, you

know.
Exactly.

But for our smaller brand, like,
you know, if you're not big in

let's say Stockholm, you might
find another place where with

your budget you can really move
the needle.

I think that's also like part of
the trick to like gain at local

knowledge and then play the game
instead of like just trusting

the distributor to play the
game.

Because if you're starting to do
really well distributor's

portfolio, you will start to get
at some point less attention

that you deserve because the
distributor will have very angry

brand owners from other
companies in the portfolio and

like give you a call like, why?
Why we're not moving?

We see that one brand doing
really well.

Like with I thought we were
friends and why if why you're

like ignoring our brand.
And so it's like a

counterproductive loop of that
locks smaller brands and freezes

them to be small unless you
somehow break that dynamic.

And exactly bringing that
dynamic is what's the goal to

for us to to do that like
founder in the market lane.

I've been in that kind of
situation a few times when I was

managing some markets and, and I
agree with you and, and it's

always the same balance.
You're raising a fantastic point

because you know in a way you
want to do well, but to a

certain threshold, you know, so
we're kind of like glass ceiling

in which you are not really
breaking the eggs in the basket

like talking again about the the
eggs in the basket because you

don't want to be too known by
other competing brands within

your distributor.
I have an example about this

like that we were in a in a
market and there was a club that

was doing so well with Peroni,
but then the tracks that we were

using to bring them the bottles
where from a competitor that had

the logistics service.
So all of a sudden, like we were

really like, I mean, the brand
was flying there because you

know, like it was in the drawer
fridge, you know, it wasn't in

the visible, you know, in the
glass fridge.

People were really, you know,
they could see the other brands,

but they were still ordering the
brand that was hidden under the

counter in the fridge.
You know, imagine how strong it

was, the perception of the brand
in that club.

And but then obviously all of a
sudden, like in the shipments,

they started to see that the
truck driver was actually

offloading more cases of Peroni
than the other brand.

And then all of a sudden, like,
you know, like it ring the bell

and we didn't tell a contract
with it was really like true

brand love.
But then all of a sudden, you

know, they had a contract in
place and they said, I mean, we,

we let you be until you reach
the contract.

But if you don't reach the
contract because you're selling

so much of this other brand,
then you know, you have to.

And then of course, there are
borderlines.

That's why I'm not mentioning
the, you know, cities and

distributors and because, you
know, they're very thin lines or

legal and so on.
But at the same time, you know,

it's, you want to be managing
expectations.

Then this is part of what I'm
doing with the podcast and with

the newsletter and, and so on is
also about changing the

perception of the, of the
industry.

Now we, we said it at the
beginning, you know, about

people that move the industry
forward now, you know, like

contributing to the whiskey
world rather than just like

piggybacking on, on what we see
that works.

And you know, part of what I do,
which is not, you know, it's not

paid, let's say.
It's helping people like you and

other people to really, you
know, stress some concepts and

some ideas about better
cooperation within all the

parties of the drinks ecosystem
so that this kind of

conversation stop happening.
You know, because all of a

sudden is like guys, you know,
you know, let's manage

expectation and founder here in
town, you know, like that is

putting his own personal time
and money into the game.

How can you compare it with your
lousy, you know, AMP budgets

that you don't even care every,
you know, every quarter about

how much we're doing with that
brand.

And then you wake up at the end
of the year and, and blame us.

You know, it's having this kind
of like educated conversation as

well, or at least giving some
ammunition on how to answer

because otherwise you're just
like waiting to be blamed.

And then if you don't know how
to articulate it, then.

And I think that's like a like
this, I don't know on how to do

all this in MASA, like sales and
marketing and they have

different tools.
So contracts like minimum

quotas, kickbacks and, and all
of that.

That's like sales tools.
I see why why people do that.

But from like marketing
perspective and and brand

building perspective, like if
you build a really good brand

that people want and you
actively cite the things that

people want in order to meet the
quota, like you're not being

and.
This might be a little bit

strong, but I don't think you're
doing very good at hospitality.

It's an issue with many brands,
with everybody in the ecosystem.

It's bars, it's the wholesalers,
it's companies.

It's like different kind of
thing.

But in the end, in my
experience, you know when you

are really, really into the the
game, you know and you know, you

really move the needle.
If you're really focusing and

you know what you're doing, even
within one year, you can have

great results in a market if
you're really dedicated with

efforts.
Because most of the other

competitors, they will oversee
things and they will be slower

than you and they will not pay
attention to you as a brand.

And you know, like there will
always be something.

But you know as if you have like
a trajectory clear, then you can

really win in that market.
Then the difficulty is into

replicating that into the next
market.

It's fascinating how like
different brands have managed to

breakthrough and it feels like
there's many different

combinations like Sidney Frank's
Gregos where they essentially

like did that by by like
reacting to a cultural

phenomenon of clubs going bigger
than having table service and

offering like really sweet deal
and kickbacks for for the clubs

so that they can have a vodka,
which was like there was nothing

in that category that she'd
like, but kind of like silly

luxury spending And then like
making all the money from retail

or apparel Springs has been
really good at like nailing the

location.
And then I think they

essentially did like came
through land route to to the

Nordics, just like city by city
activating and making sure that

people drink after all sprays.
And it becomes something that

you do when you get off the work
and you kind of transition from

like labor to Lesser or Fireball
where they acted like activated

the local joints by having an
offer where you can have two

bottles in.
And then the sales reps sort of

offering around to the whole
bar.

And then bar has to reorder a
bigger amount.

And everybody has like you've
done the liquid tulips.

And there's so many like
different ways that you can grow

your brand.
I think it always comes from

like deep understanding of
something cultural happening,

nailing it in a meaningful way.
It also makes me think about the

the importance of being able to
dissect what works in a market

and what works because there is
there is a few elements.

Now, one thing is the local
versus global kind of thing.

And, you know, there is a
tendency, you know, distributors

are always saying like, no, but
this country is different, you

know, and the brand owners try
to standardize things.

But then you have to be able to
take that feedback and don't

just discard it as, OK, this is
some BS that Mikko, the

distributor in Finland, told me,
you know, because he didn't want

to sell that much.
I need to analyze the trend and

understand if there is some meat
on the bones there.

But then at the same time when
we didn't companies, we are sold

best practices from other
countries.

We need to to be able to dissect
what was the real driver that

enabled that thing.
You know, because you could do

the same things in many markets,
but not all the markets would

react the same way because there
are different competitors

playing, there are different
condition.

Your tactic may not resonate.
You know, like I, I remember for

example, when I was working in
the Nordics on, on Peroni, I'm

sure that one of the biggest
success was that Peroni was

really big in the City of London
where all the bankers were going

after work drinking pine.
So Peroni.

And then credit crunch happened
and then I started working on

the company in 2010, which was
basically right after.

And there was the return
diaspora of all the Nordic

bankers, you know, to Oslo,
Helsinki, Stockholm.

So all of a sudden, you know,
like the brand found the very

fertile ground because then if
we were in the right spots, then

there was an automatic brand
called because whoever.

So Peroni, they were coming from
five years of drinking Peroni

after work.
So they kept drinking Peroni

after work in Oslo, in
Stockholm, in Helsinki and so

on, which is, you know, not
diminishing what we have done

with the team, but you need to
understand where you find

certain things, you know, like
you can always play.

And that's why I like this
cultural cues because, you know,

like then you can play with even
from an ingredient perspective

or from different kind of
elements, you can follow certain

types of consumers, you know,
and really approach them and

make the brand relevant there.
That's why, like I'm always

stressing the fact that, you
know, you shouldn't rush into

the modern kind of occasion, but
you should really secure that

traditional occasion.
In your case, it could be, you

know, is there like a Nordic
bakery, you know, like

Scandinavians and Nordic people
living in a city, you know,

where do they gather?
Do they have a get together?

Do they have certain thing?
Because that's where you

actually put the foot in the
door into the community.

And then you start to understand
where do they go?

Where did you go out?
Where do they do shopping?

And then all of a sudden, that's
the stronghold that will always

be there for you ultimately, you
know?

I think that's exactly like one
of the reasons why it makes

sense for you to focus because
it is impossible for you to like

gain that kind of insight that
you mentioned about like

diaspora of Nordic bankers.
And that's an insight that you

can actually work on.
Like you can find out what are

the places where they go,
activate those and make sure

that your AMT money gets like
the best bang for the buck right

now.
Something interesting happening

crossing in Ukraine.
We opened that market and it

seems that we're like over
performing by a lot and I think

that's probably like something
about the brand that sort of

resonate with that we do have
like our bin was initially named

Mac Web because of a battle that
took place in that location 300

years ago, like between Finn
Swedes and Russia.

Whenever there's a big shift,
people are looking for something

that kind of symbolizes it in
like in post war Europe, I think

was like American goods,
especially if you were on non

Soviet side of the Iron Curtain.
And I've been like symbolized

freedom.
And if you want to be part of

that thesis, you would spoke
American, figure it or a glass

of American whiskey.
There is even a song, you know

the the song 2 of Al Americano
like that at some point it got

to re re popularize in a techno
version that is talking exactly

about this.
You know, it's basically like

people making feel out the
singer is making fun of this guy

walking around Naples pretending
he's an American, you know,

smoking cigarettes, wearing
baseball caps.

And then and then it makes fun
of him because they say, you

know, actually the money for
your camel, they are, they're

from your mama's purse.
Stop pretending you're a cool

guy.
And then you're asking your

mother for the for the
cigarettes.

You know, like the way I
understood it was because I had

friends, you know, bankers or
maybe I was in a bar during an

activation and asking them.
And they will telling me, oh, I

used to drink it in London and
so on.

And what is also important for
smaller brands to understand is

that you don't need a huge
budget for research for this.

Because it's literally about
sitting at the bar, talking to

the bartender, listening to the
conversation of the couple next

to you, you know, trying to
understand what's happening and

what do they give you as a
feedback.

And then you make you make your
own conclusion.

And then all of a sudden, if
it's the 10th time that you hear

this story, then all of a sudden
is like, oh, actually probably

there is something in this,
let's work on it.

But you know, we tend to think
that we need a huge research

budget, €400,000.
I, I honestly feel lucky that I

started working, I started my
career after university in, in

the Nordics, I mean in Finland,
Sweden.

And it was like, they were all
dark markets, you know, So I was

working in agencies and they
were, you know, working with

tobacco brands or with beer and
spirits brands.

And I was trained not to think
in ATL terms at all because, you

know, that was illegal.
And then I've always thought

like, it's not that I want to
learn how to do ATL because ATL

eventually will fade out
everywhere in the next 50 years.

So I want to learn the brick and
mortar of really building brands

without having a big spends.
And I've always built brands

without a big spends.
And, and the research was like,

you know, whenever, you know,
some big boss was asking now we

need to back it up with
research.

And I was like, dude, you know,
like we've got €30,000 budget

for the year and you want to
have a research, you know, spend

50.
I just, you feel like, and then,

then once it's confirmed, then
with there's no money to do

anything because, you know, we
burned the money and research.

So now we know that we can
safely do what we wanted, except

that we don't have the money to
make it happen.

Instead of research for a small
brand, it also makes more sense

to do experiments.
So you just like do a

hypothesis.
If this works, this could be a

huge thing for us.
And then you try to do that, but

if you do a research and then
like you can't apply those

learnings because you ran out
budget or it's something like it

tells you something that I know
somehow doesn't like support

what you're doing, then you kind
of fucked.

When we started, we did research
that was like required for us

to, to get some like some sort
of backing from the government

for the distillery.
And we interviewed a lot of

people and we got to a point
where all the experts said that

like premium gym in Finland,
it's roughly like 2 to 5000

liter market.
That's like miniscule.

And eventually we ended up 50
times bigger than that.

And that's also like you can do
research, but you, you will

always find out how the world is
now.

But if you do experiments, you
gain information on how the

world could be tomorrow.
I love that and and it's so

true.
And it's also like how you

recruit people, you know, like
one, one of the things that I

was talking about in a previous
episode was like how to recruit

people into a category.
Now, for example, I mean,

whiskey drinker, like, you know,
whiskey is a tough category for

non whiskey drinkers, you know,
but you can make it more

approachable.
I always bring the example of,

you know, a friend of mine is a
rum drinker.

When I introduced him to
whiskey, I introduced him when,

you know, it was like aged in
RAM casks, you know, it was a

whiskey agent Ramkowski.
And then I make it easy for him

to transition because he, he
tastes something that he's

familiar with.
Or then for example, like, you

know, if you do a Blvd. die,
which now I'm going to do a

ride, you know, with CUDA
whiskey, like Blvd. die myself

because I, I started, for
example, as a Negroni drinker.

And then, you know, like it's
easy to switch gene because, you

know, two out of the three
ingredients anyway, you know, so

I'm switching only one.
Maybe I can start not with one

third, one third, one third.
Maybe I can play a little bit,

you know, on diminishing the
amount of whiskey to start with

to recruit you because otherwise
you may be scared of that taste.

But then once that I get you
used to that, then all of a

sudden it makes it much easier
for you to actually say, Oh, you

know what?
I didn't, I didn't know.

I like whiskey, you know,
because it's, it's always like

this, you know, like it's this
morning I was laughing with my

daughter because she, she wanted
the sugary things for breakfast.

And then and I said, you can
have all that sugar in for

breakfast.
And then she said that, but I

love sugar.
Sugar is great.

And then I was like, I know
sugar is great.

That's that's what the sugar
industry is based on, you know,

that people love it.
But then at the same time, you

know, like you can play with
certain things, whether people

are like have a sweet tooth or
like they like more bitter, but

you know, you can recruit
people.

And to your previous point, you
know, OK, you may look that the

whiskey category is super small
today, you know, but what if you

start to really do something and
then you, you really do

something about it and you start
to install more and more whiskey

cocktails into the culture.
And then you start to get into,

you know, it's the same thing
with the look at agave spirits.

I mean, like nobody was thinking
about agave spirits as a new

wave of novelty.
And I mean, Gene was was

basically like old ladies drink
up to like 16 years ago.

And then it just became their
wealth hit category of some all

land and all the bankers wanted
to have their own gene brand

that they could have gene and
phonic fund on their.

Yeah.
And that's actually some like an

excellent point that there's
definitely like two different

mindsets on like with the people
in the industry.

One is kind of fixed mindset
where you think that like the

world is how it is and it can't
be chained.

And the other one is or like
growth mindset where you think

that's like how things are now,
the starting point and tomorrow

they will be different and you
can affect that change yourself.

And I think that's where like
into entrepreneurs should be

definitely on the, on the growth
mindset side.

And it's also one of the like
unfair advantages that you have

even if you don't have the big
budget and all of that, you have

different mindset and that is
super valuable on its own

already.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And I literally just got this
book Originals by Adam Grant

that I want to read that.
It's talking exactly about this,

that non conformists move the
world, you know, and I just read

the foreword.
But it's it's very interesting

what they say about really being
somebody that is trying to move

things forward and on on
something that probably doesn't

work now, you know, but then at
least you you have something in

place and without being too
dreamer, you know, like it be it

depends on the budget you have
available, the time you have

available.
But I mean, look at all the, you

know, even all the hobbies of
people, you know, when you dig

into the hobbies of people,
there are some crazy hobbies

that don't make sense.
And I mean, they're niche, you

know, but but there is a lot of
people that are interested in

certain things.
And if you have, if you can

manage to make out of your,
let's say, obsession and

passion, you know, something
that you can monetize on, then

everybody's happy.
So that thanks.

Thanks a lot for for your time
Miko.

It was really, really a great
chat.

I want to leave some space for
you to leave some, you know,

inspiration from your journey
and then also like to leave some

contact details of how can
people find you and Cura

Distillery.
Yes, thank you so much for for

having me, Chris.
One thing that we figured that

we should feature but we didn't
was that after two years in

Berlin, I stepped out of the
company for nearly two years,

moved to Iceland, worked on a
like climate startup, did a lot

of weird hobby called free
diving.

But one of the biggest learnings
that I got from that is that

like if you're building a Spears
brand and especially whiskey

brand, it is for a long term.
So it was super healthy for me

to detach myself and my
personality from the brand.

And now that I'm back, I see
like an appropriate with like in

a sweet spot of like
professionalism, enthusiasm and

passion and knowledge and like
different perspective that I've

gained.
If you're an entrepreneur, I

highly recommend that you like
do the setup in a way that kind

of allows you to recharge
somewhere else.

And often it's kind of mandatory
because your own personality and

your own brand can be so in the
twine to anything that happens

to the company kind of feels
like it happens like physically

to you.
And that can be really painful.

And that can lead to conflicts
with like within staff or with

investors or Co founders or or
so forth.

And those are often like
avoidable.

You're bringing it in a very
interesting perspective,

especially because we also work
in a, you know, in a fast-paced

industry that at the same time
is very slow in building,

despite what people think.
You know, it's a slow moving

consumer goods is, you know,
that fast moving consumer goods,

but also it's, you know, we are
handling stuff that is quite

dangerous at the same time.
So it's also I, I, I have this

conversation with a lot of
people like, you know,

bartenders and brand managers
and so on.

And it's also like to take our
time and understand and learn

our body and, and our pace of
what we can handle.

And sometimes like what you can
handle is not that visible, you

know, and then it pops up in a
way that you don't want it, you

know, like with some issues.
So it's a, it's a, it's a

fantastic thing.
And I mean, I mean, you're

making me think as well on, on
the fact that, you know, once

that you have something, you
know, when you believe that

something is going to be very
long term, then taking one or

two years off, it's not really
that crazy.

You know when.
You think about it.

Yeah, that's a concept of finite
and Infinity games.

The final game is something that
you want to win.

An infinite game is where the
most important thing is to keep

playing because at some point,
like good things will come.

And I think building a spirit
friend is more on the side of

like infinite game where if you
try to get like quick quince,

it's easy to sort of, I don't
know, run out of money and and

go out of business.
But if you build it in a way

that you're in it for for the
long term, your choices and

everything that you do is more
sort of like brand building,

like tearing.
So you create lasting value

because you know that you'll be
there.

And with like distilling whiskey
on its own is is a good example

of you distill something and
it'll be like better and better

every year until you decide to
to bottle and sell it at at a

good premium.
That's very true.

Thanks a lot for sharing your
personal story as well.

And how can people find you
meet?

Cops so I am in LinkedIn Mikko
Costkinen I'm the one with beard

Instagram I'm Mikko like
underline AT underline B and you

should definitely visit
gurudistillery.com.

And lastly, on YouTube you could
get it to Google Gura, Kyr, all

with dots and I guess that's 2
1/2 minutes video that Chris

mentioned earlier.
Fantastic, So thanks a lot and

definitely I will put a link to
the video because it's a it's a

must watch.
You're gonna you actually get to

to see Miko almost fully naked.
It's a proper finish sauna

version of Miko.
It's a really, really fun video

that brings together all the all
the cues, you know, with humor,

ingredients, founders, target
occasions.

Finland in a nutshell.
Especially for me, having lived

there like I was, I was really
like laughing because it was so

true and stereotypical, but in a
funny way.

And I loved it.
So, so thanks a lot, Miko.

Speak soon.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a twoart
eisodes 66 and 67 O feel free to

listen to that as well.
One last thing, if you enjoy

this podcast, you will also like
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