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Welcome to Episode 98 of the Teaching Tax Flow podcast! In this episode, hosts Chris Picciurro and John Tripolsky delve into the often-overlooked pitfalls in tax planning, aptly referred to as the "Top Three Tax Landmines." They aim to educate real estate investors and other listeners on how to navigate the treacherous waters of tax obligations.
The discussion starts with Chris elaborating on depreciation recapture — the sudden surge in taxable income when you sell an asset you've previously claimed depreciation on. This intricate tax rule can catch you off guard if you are not prepared, especially in scenarios involving vehicles and real estate investments. Next, they explore phantom income, income that appears on your tax returns without actual cash realization. Often emerging from scenarios like cancellation of debt, partnership income, and barter transactions, phantom income can unexpectedly inflate your tax liability. Lastly, they examine the hazards of under-withholding taxes, particularly when experiencing significant life changes like job transitions or marital status modifications, which can cause a shortfall in tax payments.
Their conversation is enriched with tangible examples and actionable advice, highlighting the critical importance of tax planning. Chris and John delve into how a strategic approach to taxes can save you from unexpected financial burdens. For those looking to stay proactive with their taxes, this episode is a treasure trove of insights.
Key Takeaways:
- Depreciation Recapture: When selling an asset for which you've claimed depreciation, you may need to include some of the previously deducted amounts as taxable income. This often surprises sellers who do not receive any cash but owe taxes on the gain.
- Phantom Income: Income that appears on paper but does not provide actual cash, such as cancellation of debt, partnership income, or barter transactions, can lead to significant tax liabilities.
- Under-Withholding Risks: Life changes such as job transitions, marital status changes, or adjustments in income can lead to under-withholding of taxes, resulting in an unexpected tax bill at year-end.
- 10% Penalty for Early Retirement Distributions: Taking early distributions from a retirement account before age 59½ without qualifying for an exception can result in a 10% penalty in addition to regular tax liabilities.
- 401(k) Loan Pitfalls: If you leave your job, an outstanding 401(k) loan can become due immediately, creating taxable income and potentially subjecting you to a 10% penalty if not repaid promptly.
Notable Quotes:
- "Tax flow does not equal cash flow." - Chris Picciurro
- "Depreciation recapture can be a phantom income — no cash in your hands, but you owe tax." - Chris Picciurro
- "Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to taxes. Ignorance is expensive." - John Tripolsky
- "Just because taxes are withheld doesn't mean it's enough to pay what you owe." - Chris Picciurro
- "With tax planning, you're not just preparing for the year-end. You're setting yourself up for a lifetime of tax efficiency." - John Tripolsky
Episode Sponsor:
REPStracker
www.repstracker.com/affiliate/teachingtaxflow (CODE: IFG)
- (00:04) - Top Three Tax Landmines and How to Avoid Them
- (07:25) - Depreciation Recapture Pitfalls in Vehicle and Real Estate Transactions
- (12:32) - Tax Pitfalls, Atari Memories, and Italian Family Traditions
- (14:39) - Understanding Phantom Income and Its Tax Implications
- (19:53) - Tax Planning, Phantom Incomes, and Business Advice
- (21:12) - Common Tax Landmines and How to Avoid Them
- (27:29) - The Importance and Benefits of Tax Planning
Creators & Guests
What is Teaching Tax Flow: The Podcast?
Welcome to “Teaching Tax Flow: The Podcast”, the show that’s all about demystifying taxes and helping you keep more of your hard-earned income in your pocket.
Hosted by tax experts from the Teaching Tax Flow team, this unfiltered (but clean) podcast is designed to empower you with the knowledge and tools you need to confidently navigate the world of taxes. We’ll cover everything from understanding tax laws and regulations to maximizing deductions and credits.
In each episode, we’ll break down a specific tax-related topic in a clear and accessible way, providing practical tips and strategies you can use to optimize your tax situation. We’ll also answer listener questions, share the mic with amazing guests, and share real-world examples to help illustrate key concepts.
Whether you’re a freelancer, small business owner, real estate investor, or just looking to understand your taxes better, this podcast is for you. So tune in, take notes, and start building your confidence in taxes today.
Produced and hosted by Teaching Tax Flow.
www.TeachingTaxFlow.com
Welcome to the Teaching Tax Flow podcast, where the goal is to empower and educate you to legally and ethically minimize taxes paid over your lifetime.
John Tripolsky:Everybody and welcome back to the Teaching Tax Flow podcast, episode 98 today. We are gonna dive head first into those top 3 or the top 3 tax land mines. So you probably have no idea what those are, and that's okay. That's a good thing. That's what we're here for.
John Tripolsky:We are gonna discuss those with you in just a moment, but as always, let's take a very brief moment and thank our episode sponsor.
Ad Read:This podcast is sponsored by Reps Tracker. Are you a real estate investor who is bogged down with the huge tax burden? Real estate investing can open the door to powerful tax benefits. Reps Tracker can streamline the process of accelerating these opportunities. To take advantage of a special TTF community discount, go to teaching tax flow.com backslash reps, r e p s, and use the code, I f g.
Ad Read:Better yet, click on the link below in this episode's show notes to go directly to the rep's tracker sign up page.
John Tripolsky:Hey, everyone. Here we are back again on the podcast. We are gonna talk about this topic today. We are gonna have a little fun here, and we're also gonna try to uncover what in the world Chris calls these tax landmines. In all transparency, he gave me this topic.
John Tripolsky:I kinda have a an idea what it is, but I really have no clue what they are. So I guess the best way to solve that, right, come to a solution, get the best answer, is to ask the man himself. Chris Pacquero, welcome back to the show, sir. How are we doing?
Chris Picciurro:Oh, I am wonderful. It's great to be back, Johnny t, and, had a great weekend. We had high school football starting here in the state of Tennessee. We had college football, really getting into full force next weekend. Kids are active.
Chris Picciurro:We're in the swing of getting into school and ready to tackle oh, a little pun. Tackle some of these these items that quite frankly, in over 20 years of experience being a CPA, we we've had several people run into what we call these landmines, and, ultimately, even for an experienced tax planner, you might be making maybe a great financial decision for yourself, but you might you might be running into uncharted waters in un in in consequences that you didn't plan on from a tax perspective.
John Tripolsky:And it's and it's funny. You mentioned, you know, it's back in school. Right? It's almost like these darn tax deadlines. They just keep coming back around every year.
John Tripolsky:You know they're coming. You try to avoid them. Well, although some people love it when their kids go back to school because they're out of the house. The house tends to stay a little cleaner.
Chris Picciurro:Yeah. The the best way I could describe it would be is let's say you're on an expressway and there's a huge accident. And you really you you look at your GPS and you realize, oh, jeez. If I stay here, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be stuck for an hour or so. So let's say you get off the interstate onto a country road, however, you you run over a nail and and pop your tire.
Chris Picciurro:Right? So you're you you're fixing one problem, but you might have inadvertently ran into another problem. So we wanna make sure that people understand, and that's what what's so important. One of the three laws of teaching tax flow is that tax flow does not equal cash flow. And that means that just because you might receive or not receive cash, doesn't mean an event's not taxable.
Chris Picciurro:So I'm excited to run into some of the I mean, I know I can't say I'm excited to do this topic because it's it's usually a difficult conversation, for people that don't do tax planning and and are very reactive. However, I think by people listening to this podcast, you're gonna this episode, you're gonna get an understanding of what things you could avoid in in advance. And, Chris, if I can add to it too. Right? I mean, you know, we all we always and and I say that,
John Tripolsky:in a non marketing pitch, we literally always talk about tax planning. Right? So let me kinda add this before we do jump into it. Right? So tax planning really is just that.
John Tripolsky:And I think the most important part of what I've always taken from it, at least in our discussions and talking to other tax pros, and a lot more people are starting to actually do it because they realize it literally tells you in a sense. It tells you what to expect. It's not old crap. You sit there and you're you're very anxious, whether it's somebody that just has, you know, a w twos, so they're a full time employee or they own their own business. It's almost like getting a leg up on, quote, unquote, tax day, and I'm doing air quotes for those that can't see that, because I know Chris loves when I refer to tax day or, you know, tax season.
John Tripolsky:But it literally tells you what you can expect, so it kinda takes the worries out of it. And then, Chris, also, I'd say, again, kind of through osmosis, you know, me not being a tax pro, I think the most powerful piece that comes from those conversations with with you and others in your industry is that there's a lot of stuff you can do even after the end of the year. It's not like, you know, December 31st. You're like, oh, crap. I gotta run out and I gotta get a vehicle.
John Tripolsky:I gotta get an office. I gotta expense all this stuff and and try to offset and do all this and blah blah blah blah blah. It turns into a disaster, and, you know, it's not a good situation. And I think one of the funniest things, right, is, like, the IRS gives you, really, the playbook. It's up to you to look at the damn thing, pardon the the French there.
Chris Picciurro:Oh, a 4 letter word. Well, good good segue when you said buy a vehicle. So my number one issue with with with the tax landmine. Right? A tax landmine is the concept of depreciation recapture.
Chris Picciurro:And what this means is that if you take a depreciation deduction on any type of asset and subsequently sell the asset, you have to recapture that deduction and put it back into your income. And I see the there's there's 2 cases where this really plays a role. The the number one by far is whenever you have a vehicle. So let me paint a picture for you, John. You've got Johnny remember you were you were knitting afghans a couple episodes ago?
John Tripolsky:That's right. I wonder if they're gonna make that Olympic sport.
Chris Picciurro:You know? Then we go that would be not
John Tripolsky:I mean, my grandma would be so proud if I actually knew how to do that, but I have no clue.
Chris Picciurro:Well, you know what? You've got other skills. So let's and I know that you're in the you love construction. So let's assume you've got Johnny t, contractor, not too far fetched. You go on December 27th, and you go buy a buy a $90,000 F350.
Chris Picciurro:But I don't even think you can get one for 90 grand, but let's just assume you can. And you say, you know what? I'm gonna take section 179 depreciation and bonus depreciation. I'm gonna write off the entire $90,000 year 1, which is completely legit, assuming you have a 100% business use of the vehicle. So you get that deduction.
Chris Picciurro:And let's say you did that in 2022. Okay? You you wrote off $90,000 of that truck. Well, let's say you put 10% down and you're carrying an $81,000 loan. Right?
Chris Picciurro:Couple years pass, you say, you know what? I don't wanna use this truck anymore. I've got a crew now. I've got I've subbing everything out. I'm just gonna get a kinda smaller vehicle, and I'm gonna run and do estimates.
Chris Picciurro:And that truck's a burden to you. So you go to the dealership, they say, look, man, I'll give you a trade in of $60,000 for that truck. You look and you owe $60, right? You're thinking to yourself, Do you have any cash in your hand? No, you don't, because you traded the vehicle in for a $60,000 credit, but you owe You pay off $60.
Chris Picciurro:However, you owe $60,000 worth of tax, or you owe tax on $60,000 worth of income. Why? Because you wrote the entire vehicle off, meaning your basis in that vehicle from a tax perspective is 0. So even though you don't take any cash in your pocket, you would have a $60,000 taxable event. Now, if you buy a new vehicle, you might be able to take a deduction for that new vehicle, but if that vehicle is not £6,000 and bonus depreciation percentages are different, there's no guarantee you can get a $60,000 deduction to offset that income.
Chris Picciurro:So that happens a lot with taxpayers saying, oh, you added the vehicle in and and I didn't I didn't get any cash. It doesn't matter. You ultimately took an immediate charge. And I could see how easy that could happen. It happens all the time.
Chris Picciurro:So depreciation recapture is one of those one of those booboos where where you're if you don't do tax planning and you work with a great you know, the best tax professional in the world that can't fix that at the end of the year. So you might have someone that or maybe they had 3 or 4 vehicles or maybe they had maybe they use that vehicle as as a 100% business use. And after a few years, they buy another vehicle and they let their spouse use that vehicle, and now there's not a lot of business use. There's still depreciation recapture.
John Tripolsky:I can even see how that could happen. I mean, obviously, there's pros and cons with a lot of situations. But say, for example, like you said, you you buy a vehicle. It qualifies in order to what we call the 6,000 pound rule. So if anybody's curious on that, look that up.
John Tripolsky:Lot of information on it. Some of it's a little deceiving. Not saying our stuff, but just in general, look up the 6,000 pound rule. I could see that happening where, say, somebody goes out and they buy, say, a $100,000 vehicle. They have it for a year, and then they say, oh, you know what?
John Tripolsky:I'm gonna get rid of this one. Say, I owe 90 on it, but I found a used one that's just like it for, you know, 30,000. They say, great. You know, it's awesome. I already wrote this off, but now I get a better deal on here.
John Tripolsky:So, sure, you get a wash. You know, you're probably not paying as much for that, but, yeah, the little little tax devil rears its ugly little head again without you knowing it. Ultimately, it's the taxpayer's responsibility because from the taxpayer's perspective, they're probably thinking,
Chris Picciurro:well, I paid 90. I'm selling it for straightened it in for 60 so I have a loss. Right? But they don't remember that they took all that deduction immediately. I'll give you one more example of depreciation recapture.
Chris Picciurro:Let's take it to real estate. Let's assume you have bought a $1,000,000 short term rental property in 2022. Alright? You put 10% down as a second you you financed it as a second residence, so you have a $900,000 loan. And let's say you didn't, you know, you didn't make a lot of interest payments, and you did what's called a cost segregation study.
Chris Picciurro:So you were able to deduct $300,000 of the $1,000,000 So my point is is you have $700,000 of that home, right, that you have not deducted yet, but you owe 900,000 Let's say that that you know, the market goes down, that mortgage is a burden, and you say, look. I'm dumping it for 900,000. I just wanna break even. Okay? You sell it for 900.
Chris Picciurro:I have to say their closing costs, but you sell it for 900,000. You pay off your $900,000 alone. You have $0 in your bank account or right? At closing. You also, in your mind, are thinking, I paid a 1,000,000 and I sold it for 900, and I should have a loss on my tax return.
Chris Picciurro:You have a $200,000 taxable gain. Why? Because you took a 3 you took $300,000 deduction year 1 with a cost segregation study. My point is when you're selling assets, especially assets that use section 179, a cost segregation study, or bonus depreciation, Work with your tax professional before you complete that transaction because you will have depreciation recapture.
John Tripolsky:I'm super I'm I'm here. My wheels are turning to think about I could think of all kinds of examples of that.
Chris Picciurro:And those are the most common. Right? There there are a lot of them. So that's that's that's depreciation recapture, which is now because of depreciation recapture is gonna be my number 2, strategy. Not strategy.
Chris Picciurro:It's the opposite of a strategy. It's a it's a pitfall or landmine. Speaking of remember the pitfall, that video game on a I never had an Atari, but then you had to jump out of the alligator heads. Where where?
John Tripolsky:I couldn't make this up if I tried. I haven't heard the word Atari in probably 10 years, and somebody just mentioned it to me this weekend. I'm like, oh, that's inter I remember that thing. I remember it used to be in my parents. I mean, anybody that had, like, an Italian family always had a lot of glass doors.
John Tripolsky:You know? It's and cabinets. I remember this Atari sitting behind this little glass door. I had to open it up, wipe my fingerprints off it because, of course, as a child, I, like, you know, put my entire handprint on this thing to open it, not on the little thing. But, anyways, well, we'll do a whole another episode on that.
Chris Picciurro:Oh, that's right. I got one more one more quick one on as far as, you know, Italian families. I remember my dad's mother or my grandmother, whenever we she lived in Roseville, Michigan for those of you from the Detroit area. Whenever we would go to her house, we she had some type of plastic, like you're going to a model home, going from her covering her her her family or the, the formal, you know, living room that no one went in or lived in. She also had covers on her couch, so you had to walk on that plastic to get to the kitchen just in case.
Chris Picciurro:Right? You know? Anyway
John Tripolsky:It's almost like that's how they used to know when you're creeping around. Right? Because they hear you walking. It's like walking on bubble wrap. It's it's funny.
John Tripolsky:You know, you know, you mentioned that too. I mean, the covers that I remember my my grandmother had on her couch, I didn't even know what the couch actually looked like until we, you know, we had to get rid of it. I'm like, oh, that's actually a nice couch. Nobody sat on it 40 years, literally.
Chris Picciurro:Well, I will say this the number 2 tax landmine, we went down a rabbit hole with Pitfall and Atari and our grandparents, would be the concept of phantom income. So phantom I mean, depreciation recapture can be phantom income, but it's not always. But phantom income, what that means is that you have income on paper, but you really didn't get any cash. You might be saying, what are some of the most common examples of phantom income? The first one would be cancellation of debt income, COD.
Chris Picciurro:Alright? Now there are some exceptions where cancellation of debt could potentially be tax free if it's student loan debt or if you're you're insolvent. But let's say Johnny t out there, you know, running around, racks up, you know, 60 grand worth of credit card debt. He was you know, back in the good old days, he was living large and, he kinda gets his self together, pays down some of that credit card debt. However, $40,000 of it is forgiven.
Chris Picciurro:He gets a 10.99 showing cancellation of debt income of that $40,000. John, you don't have any cash, but that's a $40,000 taxable event. So that can happen I mean, that can happen with medical bills. It could happen with so many different fact patterns that that cancellation of debt is an example of what we call phantom income. No cash in your hands, taxable event.
John Tripolsky:Is that almost and not to go down another rabbit hole because I know there's there's probably some complications to this, but is that almost the situation with I know there was a a big string of time where student loans were being forgiven, I believe, or some of them went through. I don't know all the details, but and then I'm sure there was something that followed that where they were trying to get that to opt out of that and all kinds of stuff. Right?
Chris Picciurro:Well, I mean, student loans, you ultimately would rather pay the tax on the and then instead of it'd be a lot cheaper to just pay the tax on the amount forgiven than actually pay it back. There are some special student loan programs and some some tax There are some student loan debt that's forgiven as tax free, but, typically, you're gonna see it most often on consumer debt.
John Tripolsky:And then the like, there's a lot of I mean, I'm sure everybody has either seen one of these commercials of Facebook. It's something out there. Right? It's like, oh, call us. We settle for I don't know what the number is.
John Tripolsky:Settle for 10¢ on the dollar and all that. So, like, that would be a great a great example of that, and I'm sure that qualifies too for personal and business debt. Correct? Would that be the same?
Chris Picciurro:Mhmm. Absolutely. It could be It is. It could there could be a lot of different types of cancellation of debt income that comes into play. And if it's taxable, that's when it's that phantom income.
Chris Picciurro:Another example that we see often often often is and there's some other podcast episodes on this, is partnership income. Well, you're gonna ask corporation income. Let me give you an example, but let's learn think about partnership income. Remember, you're as a partner in a partnership or partner in an LLC taxed as a partnership, you're taxed on the profit and loss of the business regardless if you take the money out of the business or leave it in. So let's say, Johnny T, that you and I start a business and we sell we're a retail T shirt company.
Chris Picciurro:Right? And we made $200,000 last year. However, at the end of the year, we really needed inventory because it was the holidays or let's say that, you know, for some reason, January is a big month for us. And we take out of the $200,000 worth of profit, we take a $150,000 of it and buy more inventory, and then you and I leave $50,000 in the business for operations. Our k ones, oh by the way there's another episode called k1s for Dummies, not that you're a dummy, but our k1 would think, John, you owe tax on $100,000 Chris, you owe tax on $100,000, do we have cash?
Chris Picciurro:No, we don't. Is the inventory deductible by the company? No, it's not, not until it's sold. So sometimes you'll have that k one income that you are allocated that income, typically it happens at a partnership, but you didn't receive any cash. Either the cash is retained by the business or it's invested in assets that are not immediately deductible.
Chris Picciurro:So it's another phantom income or paper paper income. The final one I love that you
John Tripolsky:call these phantom income because it basically just kinda it's it it is what it is. Right? Just kinda slides
Chris Picciurro:Yeah. It's it's not paying
John Tripolsky:without you knowing it. Unexpected.
Chris Picciurro:Well, exact it's on paper, but it's not really money in your pocket. If that yep. That It's kinda like when I do the laundry in
John Tripolsky:my house. I phantomly do the laundry. You know? It just maybe shows up, but it wasn't me that did it. Or you probably do it wrong.
John Tripolsky:I only teach my 3 year
Chris Picciurro:old doesn't make me do it. That's that's that's always a good strategy we've talked about. Well, I know I know I know I would be barter income. Right? So let's say you own a business.
Chris Picciurro:You're Johnny T Construction. You, you do a job for someone. You bill them 5 grand. In lieu of the 5 grand, they're like, well, listen. I know your daughter loves beanie babies, so I'm gonna give you that princess dyed beanie instead of paying.
Chris Picciurro:You didn't get any cash, but ultimately you were compensated with an asset. So that technically, Princess Di Beanie Baby, if its value is at $5,000, is income to your business, but you don't have any cash. You have a Beanie Baby. Congratulations. That's one no.
Chris Picciurro:The final example of phantom income. There are several examples, but I think if you're listening to this, you're getting the point of there's certain situations where you could have phantom income and and and the trouble is is if you don't have the cash to even pay the tax on the phantom income, then you really have trouble. Then back to where we started too
John Tripolsky:a little bit about tax planning. Right? You know, we talked about the the vehicle a little bit earlier on. We talked about some of the phantom incomes. The more planning you do, you kinda you have you have a you have a longer foresight, we should say.
John Tripolsky:Right? So you can kinda see what you can do. You kinda know what's coming up, and it's you know, obviously, Chris, knowing you for, you know, over well over half my life. Well, well, well over half my life. So young, John.
John Tripolsky:Having somebody young blood. Having somebody that really knows your situation and kinda knows your habits, activities, your business, that is so, so important. Right? Like, Like, Chris, if I came to you and said, you know what? I'm gonna start a construction company.
John Tripolsky:And I didn't, you know, didn't know anything that we talk about. You would be like, hey. Have you considered just getting a truck that's over 6,000? Like, little stuff like that rolls in. And then, of course, you know, before I went and sold it, I would've said, hey.
John Tripolsky:I'm thinking about this, and you would've grabbed your pickleball paddle and whacked me right upside the head and say, hold on to the darn you know what I mean? So building that you know, we did an episode again way earlier on about building your board of directors. Go listen to that. Very important. That's kinda what I'm getting at here.
John Tripolsky:But, yeah, let's talk about let's talk about a little bit more of these land the landmines. Right? So
Chris Picciurro:The third one. Yeah. The third the third one, and then I'll have a bonus one for the sound of that. Believe it or not. But the third landmine happens all the time.
Chris Picciurro:Under withholding from your wages. Okay? Unfortunately, there's a common misconception that taxpayers think that whatever was withheld from their wages or their income is is enough to pay the tax you owe. Well, they took the taxes out. Well, they took some taxes out.
Chris Picciurro:Your employer or your or if you're taking retirement plan distributions withholds based on what you tell them to withhold, and that's not necessarily your marginal tax rate. So you could have some other things going on that cause you to under withhold. The most common things are gonna be, 1, you change employment, and you just go in that 1st day and fill out the forms, and you're off for withholding. 2, you have a change in marital status. 3, you have a your if you are married, that your your spouse has a big change of income or you have a change in dependence.
Chris Picciurro:So a lot of times, people will change nothing. I'll give you an example. Let's say someone, let's say you have a married couple and they're both making about $100,000 a year. One's making, let's say, 6 60 rather, let's change it up. One's making 60.
Chris Picciurro:One's making 140. The one making the 160 let's say they get divorced, and the one making the 60,000 doesn't have a dependent. Now they're filing a single, but they're not getting a ton of withholding out of their w two wage, and they could owe and they didn't even know it. So make sure that you're running some numbers and you have the adequate amount of withholding because that'll sting you. And there's times another example of when people get stung is when they're getting a big bonus and they wanna tell them, well, I'm getting my bonus for the year.
Chris Picciurro:I don't wanna have to go with taxes. Well, the misconception is the amount that's going to your tax is based on your marginal tax rate, not your withholding. So they they tell their employer not to withhold much tax, but then they owe it at the end of the year and they forget. So withholding does not equal the tax that you actually pay. It's just the amount that's taken out of your wages or retirement income in anticipation of what you're gonna owe.
Chris Picciurro:So under withholding is my number 3 tax land mine. And if you have a major change to your tax situation, talk to a tax professional. It's worth it to talk to someone to make sure
John Tripolsky:that you're on the right track, which I could see that one happening a lot too. Somebody is switching employers, so they gotta put something like that where their, you know, paperwork is reinitiated. It's almost just out of antsy and this excitement that, like, yep, yep, yep, just check the boxes, fill them out, and then, oh, crap.
Chris Picciurro:It happens a ton when you have a married couple. Let's say you have one one person that that let's say they're making a $100,000 a year. The spa let's say they have children. The children are in school, so that spouse goes back to work part time. Let's say they go work for the holidays at a retail shop or they at teacher's aide or something part time.
Chris Picciurro:Then they make, you know, 15 or $20,000 that year, but because then there's not much withholding on that 15 to 20 grand. So when you combine their incomes, then they owe 4, 5000 at the end of the year, and they're like, what happened? So now that's where you've gotta be careful. And I have one more bonus so we can put a wrap on this. One more bonus.
Chris Picciurro:Came to me right when we started. It's somewhat with related to withholding. The 10% penalty for early retirement distribution can be a dagger to people. So understanding if you're, let's say, age 40 and you pull money out of your 401 k and you don't meet one of the exceptions, what might happen is a 401 k company might withhold 20%. You might say, oh, taxes are withheld out of this.
Chris Picciurro:However, you're gonna pay tax at your marginal tax rate for that distribution and a 10% early distribution penalty on the federal return. So that 10% early distribution penalty applies to many, many people. There are ways you can hopefully plan around it, but once you pull that trigger and take the money out early, it really eats into your tax. I'll give you one more too. Actually, not so why not?
Chris Picciurro:We're on a roll here. The other one related to retirement plan distributions. Let's say you have a 401 k plan and you take a a loan against it, and you're paying that loan back, so the loan's tax free. You're paying that loan back through your w two wages, so through your payroll, and either your employment status changes. So let's say you leave your job.
Chris Picciurro:Let's say the employer gets bought out and and and they call your the amount you owe on the 401 k. That's kind of phantom income. You don't have the cash anymore. You have no way to pay it back. That's taxable with a 10% penalty.
Chris Picciurro:Oh, that's a wild one right there. But, yeah. It happens all the time. So point is talk to your tax professional or jump in to our defeating taxes private Facebook group and ask some questions. There are people there to help you.
Chris Picciurro:And and I real you know, that's one thing when someone says, look. I'm gonna sell this rental property. I know I'm gonna owe x amount of tax, but I've got to get free up some cash for something else. That's those as a tax planner, you can understand those things, and and it it just kill you know, it really eats at you when someone makes a decision that has a landmine or unintended consequence, and there's nothing you could do
John Tripolsky:about it. Makes sense. Makes sense. And that's, ignorance is not bliss when it comes to taxes. Right?
John Tripolsky:Ignorance is very, very expensive for a long time. Right? It's not like you can there's not a lot of white flags and apologies and asking for forgiveness when it comes to taxes. So, Chris, to your point too, you know, we talked about tax planning now, I think, 3 or 4 times, if not more than that, just on this specific show, or this episode. So if you don't see a trend here, you probably got bigger problems.
John Tripolsky:The the tax planning is so important. It is something that, you know, is I wouldn't say is relatively new, but I think it's gaining, you know, as you mentioned, a lot more popularity because people are seeing, you know, the positive very, very positive outcomes as producing for literally and, you know, I say this personally. I think that my opinion and and, Chris, tell me if I'm wrong. I think and just getting over that first initial okay. I'm interested in tax planning.
John Tripolsky:Not even I'm gonna do it, but I'm interested in it. What is it? It's not that hard. I mean, realistically, you're it's just having a conversation with your tax professional, and just think about it. Right?
John Tripolsky:Like, say you have a number in your mind for anybody that's listening to this. Say, you know, this is how much I make per hour. This is how much, you know, whatever I wanna make per hour. You will save likely I'm not gonna put a number to it, but likely way more than that just by the the little amount of time you're gonna put into tax planning, that initial one. And then year over year, it kinda gets easier and easier, although things change.
John Tripolsky:But just the amount that you'll save and just a peace of mind, you won't you know, my little personal information, my birthday is actually, quote, unquote, tax day. So anything I can do to avoid anything else going on on my birthday is a beautiful thing. So I challenge everybody that. Just take just consider it. Don't even Google it.
John Tripolsky:Don't do anything. Just think about what that means to you, tax planning. We'd love to hear it. Shoot us an email, hello, at teaching tax flow.com. Get into defeating taxes as Chris had mentioned too.
John Tripolsky:And on that note, I'm gonna make a post probably today. So, you know, August or yeah. It is August. Holy cow. August 27, 2024.
John Tripolsky:I'm putting it out there on defeating taxes.com. It'll take you directly to that private Facebook group of some questions you may have. Send us these questions. Again, if you can post anonymously to that group, if you're not a member, it's easy, free, click on it you're in. We are gonna do an episode, not exactly sure which one it's gonna be, but it's probably gonna be within the next 4 weeks or so of rapid fire questions.
John Tripolsky:So Chris says that he is not nervous about these, and I know he knows a lot of answers, but let's try to make him a little nervous. Let's let's ask some hard questions, and we are gonna get through a ton of these. So don't think that if you send them to us, we are not gonna have them answered. We are gonna have them answered by Chris in one way, shape, or form, so please send those over, and we look forward to it. So I challenge you with that.
John Tripolsky:Look at tax planning. Consider it. Have any questions? Reach out to us. That's what we're here for, and get on defeating taxes.
John Tripolsky:Look for that post being posted today, August 27th. That's the day that this podcast goes live, and let's get down to business. The year is ticking away. Time's ticking away. Let's plan for amazing, amazing next year in in a future, 3 years be up.
Disclaimer:So thank you everybody again for joining us here on the Teaching Taxable podcast. As always, we will see you back here. Same place ish, different time ish, different topic for sure. The content provided is for educational purposes only. We encourage you to seek personalized investment advice from your financial professional.
Disclaimer:For all tax and legal advice, please consult your CPA or attorney. Investment advisory services are offered through Cabin Advisors, a registered investment adviser. Securities are offered through Cabin Securities, a registered broker dealer. The content of this podcast does not constitute an offer of securities. Offerings can only be made through an offering memorandum, and you should carefully examine the risk factors and other information contained in the memorandum.