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We share stories of how the blood of Jesus has transformed ours and others' lives.
Hi everybody. Welcome to Red Ledger. This is Lisa Frazier. And I'm Deley Bell. We're hosting this new series that I'm super excited about. Uh, we've been preparing for a long time. We've actually recorded at a time. Yeah. I guess our intent is to help you recognize what is healthy biblical church leadership and separate that from maybe spiritual environments that are confusing, controlling, and potentially spiritually abusive that is happening in the world today.
We are in the end times where this is definitely a possibility where there are false prophets. Um, we have just broken people. Yeah. And we, we have people who are not even actually called to the ministry who have called themselves, and it's that whole end times thing where people become lovers of themselves, et cetera.
Um, I think something we've talked about in previous podcasts are there are some pastors out there who don't actually believe in God. This is not their calling, this is what they're doing to. Make money. So that is out there. And then we have really, um, I'm gonna say narcissistic, maybe potentially sociopathic and psychopaths running churches.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's a dangerous place. So I think e especially for new believers, we want you to find the church as a sanctuary. And, and this is the problem, is people walking in thinking they're gonna find Jesus, but they walk out hurt and maybe even spiritually hijacked. The problem I have with this is people move further away from God.
Yeah. Or they don't believe he's real at all. Right. And they question their faith or everything they learned. Yeah. And that is my heart, is to help people who are either seeking church for the first time because there are healthy churches out there and you wanna do this with God, with the Holy Spirit.
And I want to talk to people who are, have maybe been in this situation and have been hurt by the church and maybe. Give you some compassion, some validation, some safe space to heal. Yeah. And then I also want to talk to leaders. We are all leaders in the ministry, so we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard.
Meaning even within this podcast, we need you, people are listening to us, so we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard. Right? But if you're a Christian, you're supposed to be going and creating disciples, which means you're a leader. Yeah. If you are a big brother, a big sister, you're a leader. If you're a parent, you're a leader.
You know, there's doubtful anywhere in your life where you're not a leader in some capacity. So as we were preparing for this, I saw myself in some of this unhealthy behavior, which we'll talk about, um, not maybe to the, to the, to the, uh, there's a spectrum of like, oh, maybe, um, maybe I'm doing this or this is harming my marriage, which is actually what I figured to.
I'm truly nefarious in trying to draw people away from God. Because also, as I was preparing for this, I was looking at this from the whole spectrum, from just, this is a maybe unhealthy situation to, this is a cult. The cult part of it was particularly interesting because of course we know what a cult is and some people get drawn into them and they don't even understand how or why, and it is by the, by some smallest measure about what we're gonna talk about today.
Well, I do wonder if some people do actually know what a cult is, because it's such a strong word and it has been such a thing where people have, you know, like I think of the Waco, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, David Crush. Yes. Mm-hmm. I think of that and, and yes, that was. A cult. Mm-hmm. But I think there's a softer side of the cult mm-hmm.
That can be, um, or of a cult that can, um, disguise itself as spiritually Okay. Or religiously. Okay. Okay. And so people are like, what? I am not part of a cult. I'm part of something that is grand. You know? Mm-hmm. Because we believe X, Y, Z. And so I think it kind of hides, you know, um, what's coming to mind is, and this may not be a good, um, uh, uh, analogy, but I think of like, uh, Lyme's disease.
And when doctors try to find it, apparently it is able to hide within the body. But you have, you might have these different, um, symptoms that show, I'm so glad you said this for a couple of reasons. Okay. The other part that I found when I was doing this cult thing was there are people hiding in the church, pretending like we said to be pastors.
Yeah. So I found this subreddit of warlocks. Mm. Because somebody said, how do I start a cult? Oh wow. And a group of warlocks came in. And we're giving suggestions. And I thought, okay, these guys are just joking. Yeah. But they gave such extreme examples of how they were doing it. Mm. They started, literally started a church and showed how they did their witchcraft and how they push the people and push the people.
Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm not saying this 'cause I don't want you to go to church. I'm saying this because I need you to understand God's voice. Understand discernment. Yeah. And understand who God is in the, and we're, we're gonna go over some of the very basics of what you should be seeing and not be seeing.
Mm-hmm. Okay. Because even in a well-intended church, like, I'm gonna say the word of faith church in North Carolina, I think that they really started out with good intentions, of course. And one of the things that happened within that church is they saw a result. Somebody got a healing because somebody popped somebody on the head.
Right. And so they started beating the people, beating demons out of people. They didn't correlate that, okay, I'm praying over this person. I po like this thing happened, which I don't know that we should be popping people over the headless. God absolutely said it, but yeah, I just, I don't think it's a necess necessary tool Right.
To, um, do healing. Yeah. And healing is a real thing. God does do it. Okay. Yeah. Of course. I'm not saying that a lot of the things that they started out doing turned into something wrong. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of churches start that way too. And I think pastors are, even pastors who are called it can turn into something wrong or bad.
Yeah. And it can turn into something, um, unhealthy. Yeah. So if you've kind of been through that, we want to be here for you, we want to give you some space, some validation, some compassion. Mm-hmm. And because I, I wanna say I've been in a church that has been unhealthy and that's what started me down this path.
And I thought, what's going on here? There's a lot of red flags that I ignored. Then I also became complicit in helping the church to be unhealthy. Right? And so this is part of my repentance is, um, and desire is to help people on that road so that they don't have to, they don't have to be there. That when you do have these red flags, you stop and go, okay, holy Spirit, is this me or is this the actual church that this is happening?
And, and I didn't do that. I ignored a lot of red flags. I think not only is this for my heart is it's for the, the new believers or, or the believers coming to a new church, but, but mine is also, mine is actually geared toward those who are in the church who are having these red flags coming up. Mm-hmm.
And they are questioning and, but they are wanting to be loyal and they don't wanna, they don't wanna do this or they, you know, if you talk here it's gossip. Or if you do this, it's that, you know, and are just feeling so. I guess confined and there's no freedom, right? Mm-hmm. And, and there's supposed to be freedom in Christ.
You're feeling drained. Maybe you're spiritually drained. That would be your, that would be a red flag. Yeah. Because I think that's was one of the things that happened to me. So I think when you walk into a church or any community, you're taught how to act by just how we see others behave. Right? Right. Of course.
And I think this is how. Cult's work or unhealthy, toxic leadership thrives, is you want to belong. Yeah. You don't wanna rock the boat. You want to get what you, you know, what you wanted outta this situation, which was some freedom, some love, some peace, some community, some understanding you're trying to learn.
At least I was. Mm-hmm. When I started going to church, my whole goal was because I did not know I mm-hmm. I did not know this word and I didn't understand, and I had so many Christians or so-called Christians telling me what I should or shouldn't be doing and how I'm supposed to be. And, and so I'm, you know, I wanna find out for myself and I'm supposed to build a relationship.
And so I want, my whole goal was to build this relationship and understand and, um, knowing that there's a leader. Mm-hmm. And I'm supposed to follow that leader, and I'm supposed to be under that leader. Um, but what happens is, is that when you, when you don't have a, have a good understanding of the word or, or really know, you could get led down these different paths.
Or even if you do know it, it doesn't, it's manipulation can, can into play, can affect everyone. Anyone can be deceived. Yeah. Okay. Anyone? Our heart is not to bash pastors. It's not to bash leaders. It is also not to, um, give you an excuse to be offended if you are just being disciplined. Okay. Because sometimes, sometimes discipline is correct.
Right? Right. We need to be corrected. I, I think sometimes it's hard to hear a message sometimes or correction from somebody within the church. That's not what this is about. This is about unhealthy leadership. Yeah. Fair. I, yeah. That's fair. And, and we've been down this road and we've had a lot of time to kind of process.
Where did I go wrong in this? Where was this wrong? And, um, I, I have plenty of examples of where I went wrong in this, in this situation that I was in. But, um, I wanna start with what is authoritarian leadership and what is wrong with it? Um, it demands obedience. Mm-hmm. And it demands loyalty. Biblical leadership is is not that way.
No. This is not how Jesus led. It invites obedience through humility. Yeah. It invites humility through service. And by example. Right. By example and by example. By example. Yeah. Okay. So let's go into that a little bit. 'cause God entru our leaders with influence and we should be honoring our leaders, right?
Yes. We need to listen. Right? But when those red flags kinda start. Like something rubs you wrong sometimes for me, this is where I got it wrong sometimes. Um, it would be a scripture that I didn't understand correctly, so I'd be like, oh, he got that wrong. So I would go home and study it out. And turns out he was right a lot.
Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. Um, this, this is a particular pastor, um, I'm thinking of in or maybe many pastors that's happened to me forever. And I think Paul wants, has told us to do that in acts to be good berean Yeah. To verify and test the scripture against Paul's word. Right. So we should probably be doing that again for sure.
With our pastor. I've heard multiple pastors say that, and I appreciate that. I think that's, I think that's great leadership, um, because you are supposed to know the word and not just rely upon the leader to know the word and you not, I mean, the whole, the whole purpose of a leader is pointing you in that direction.
Mm-hmm. You have a requirement to, to, um, excuse me, build your. Relationship with the Lord and to know that and to understand that because there's gonna be times where you don't have a leader in front of you or with you, and you have to, well, the leader is the Holy Spirit. You're gonna have to rely upon him and that discernment and the knowledge that you have.
So those red flags, those uncomfortable things. Okay. You have to also be aware that it could just mean God wants you to dive deeper into the word on that. Right? Like it's something he wants you to know. Yeah. Or it could mean something's wrong. Mm-hmm. Okay. So one of the examples I got early wrong that, that just, it was one of the first ones that rubbed me wrong was the scripture wasn't enough.
Okay. It was the stretching of the gospel, meaning what it was. So I'm gonna give you an example. Okay. Um, this church teaches healing. That, that healing is a possibility. Mm-hmm. Or, um, that God, God is our healer. Right. I do believe that. Yeah. That I do believe, and there are plenty, that's what the word says.
Yes. And there are plenty instances in the Bible Yeah. Where people are healed and we're told to go out and pray over people. Lay hands on people. It's in there. Yeah. So this particular pastors said, um, and this was just kind of the beginning of some interesting things that happened. Yeah. Right. But it was like, okay.
And I, I will give grace for pastors to get things wrong. I get things wrong. Totally. And everyone's in their process and journey. Yeah. Okay. We talk about it on here all the time, about the grace. It's when we start to see patterns. Mm-hmm. Okay. When we start to see patterns. And one of the scriptures, um, that he said was, Paul was stoned to death and resurrected.
No, Paul was nearly stoned to death. Okay. Was not resurrected. Don't need to say that. Right? Doesn't need to happen. Yeah. Okay. It didn't need, you didn't need that. And so I have to wonder, a, as I went on down this rabbit hole, um, something that I saw within this pastor, um, that I chose to ignore for a very long time was.
This need to make the stories more grand. Oh, right. Right. And I, I can only pontificate why, and it doesn't really matter. Why. No. Um, there's no good reason. Okay. Like, when I was doing sales in my early years, did I try make things more grand? 'cause I was trying to sell something. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to sell something.
I don't do that anymore. Yeah. But I did do it when I was younger and why I am like, Hmm. I didn't think I was enough or the story was enough. Yeah. I had one of our, one of my pastors teach me that, that your words do matter. Mm-hmm. And there's a great book by Charles Kass that talks about, um, um, your, the tongue and, and the power of it and Yes.
And why your words matter, the integrity of it and what you're saying. And so, excuse me, he, um, this pastor took everything. So literally, and his, um, his teachings were very rich. Mm-hmm. And, and, and they were so great. And one of the things that I did learn from him was to be so careful with your words, like the exaggeration.
And, and I found, and I've called my mother out on this before, so sorry, mom. So she'll say to me, I, um, it was a thousand degrees today, and I'm like. Was it really a thousand? Was it really a thousand? Do you wanna do this with me all the time? I do. I do speak in hyperbole. Yeah. But I was like, mom, it's okay if you say it was 101 that's really hot and uncomfortable and it's okay.
You don't have to say it was a thousand because it's okay for it to be 101 and you being hot. That's really hot. Yeah, that's hot. And so anyways, and she'll laugh, you know, 'cause I've said that to her multiple times. 'cause I'm like, really? Mom was there a thousand? Okay. And she does that. So, yeah. You know, I, that's it to me.
You don't have to exaggerate the, the word is the word. You don't have to embellish it. You don't have to. You don't have have to. And it's so good. Yeah. It's so good. We don't need to add to it. No. So, um, so I guess the point a whole that is to kind of express. Red flags. Yeah. Something just doesn't feel right.
Right. Something isn't setting right with you. It could be the Holy Spirit. Yeah. So let's move on to our next red flags. Yeah. Okay, so unhealthy leadership demands obedience, like we talked about. Authoritarian leaders say, do what I say, or else. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. This is a command. This is a D demand. 'cause Jesus says, follow me.
I laid down my life for you. Yeah. Do you hear the difference? Right? Yeah. One is a demand, one is kind of like this is, this is better for you. Well this is what I've said to people before. If, if you want me to follow you, I've even said this to my husband. Mm-hmm. I want to follow you, give me reason. Yes. And show me, and I, I will, I will follow him even, you know, I mean, I won't follow him off a cliff, um, but I will follow him.
Mm-hmm. You know, um, and, and submit. I'm not afraid of submission and I do that. However, um, I will follow the word and the Lord first. Yes. And so when somebody demands that of me and command, you know, I just go, really? I, I I mean, then you're not confident in what you're saying. You're not confident in the word.
You're not confident in who you are, because you wouldn't have to say that to me. Okay. So I found that I sometimes do this. Mm. I, I, um, I am a business owner. This is my excuse. That was kind of gross, but here, I'm, I'm just telling you the situation, but it is an excuse. I just, I just heard it as I said it.
Okay. Um. We do not wanna be this way as leaders either. But even in my own marriage, I can see where I have been. Like I, I kind of demanding of my husband to grow in a certain way or to grow towards Jesus in this certain way, which is, this is gonna be really gross. Okay. I'm just telling you who I am, where I want him to be on the same path I am.
Exact. Not even exactly where I'm at. I just wanted him so desperately to be on that same path that, and this is gonna sound crazy to you, but I'm just telling you how messy my mind was. Um, that if he doesn't do this, I'm gonna leave him. I didn't say it, but it was implied. Mm-hmm. And he knew it. Yeah. Like he knew it.
It was okay. If you don't act this way, I'm gonna do this. Mm-hmm. Well. That, that that's not me being me in this situation. That's me being coercing him to be who I want him to be. Yeah. It's manipulative. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I don't think I realized it and that's where my, um, grace is for these pastors.
Yeah. I I don't think they are realizing they're doing it. No. And I don't think they realized the harm they've done, just like I didn't realize the harm I had done to my marriage. Yeah. No, I don't, I don't think so. Um, but nonetheless, still unhealthy and still toxic. Totally. Mm-hmm. You, you have to be in a place where you are, um, able to reflect upon your life and the decisions and choices you've made and the things that you've done to honestly look at it and go, Hey, at did I, did I get it right?
Yes. No, maybe so. And kind of walk it out. That's why I, I was talking to my son the other day and, and we were talking about, um. Him going off to school and doing things and, and I, there's something that I really wanted him to work on and I said, son, you know, this is something that's been handed down from me and your dad to you.
And so dad and I are having to work on this stuff. So there's no judgment, sweetie, but you still have to, you gotta pick up your cross. You gotta, you gotta walk this out. Mm-hmm. And you have to, you have to be open to receiving it and seeing it. But if you're just gonna be like, Nope. Mm-hmm. Because it's too hard for you to deal with, that's fine.
It will table or it will be pushed under that rug and that rug. You may think that these things are getting hidden by it, but that rug starts to pile up and people can see a pile of mess. Mm-hmm. Whether you think it's hidden or not. And it starts to come out the bottom. Yeah. Or people trip over that.
Yeah. And you know, they're thi and they're just falling over it. Mm-hmm. Because it is so big, you're going to have to deal with it. And it's that whole same thing with the, um, uh, where the word talks about that. Um, things can be handed down. Sin can be handed down for four generations. So we might be, we don't live under that curse, but you can choose to.
You can choose to. You can choose to. And so you can choose as these things arise and show themselves, you can choose to hold onto them and not break that chain. Or you can choose to shed them. And you can, you can apply the word to your life. Mm-hmm. You can apply Jesus. Just like when, when my son said to me, well, I, I gotta get control over this.
I said, no, son. You need to go to Jesus eyes on him, get it to him and get in the Word and he will correct that and he will help you with it. Mm-hmm. So, no you don't. That's you taking on that which he took. Yeah, he took it. Yep. So it's a waste. You don't have to do that. Amen. Just walk it out with him. So, hey friends, sorry for the interruption.
If this episode is a blessing you or does bless you, if you keep watching, please do. I really would love you to check out our website, red ledger gifts.com. It's our online chop filled with faith filled based gifts, faith-based gifts. Anyway, I'm not great at commercials. Um, we have Bibles and Cups, candles, um, to encourage you to with your walk with God.
And every purchase really helps us keep this podcast going. Just think of us if you have a gift coming up or if you want something for yourself, if you just leave a comment, like, and subscribe. That helps us with the algorithms too. So we really appreciate that. Thank you guys. The next red flag I want you to really think about is, are you able to ask questions?
Yes. Can you question your pastor, um, on his decisions and the guide and the direction of the church? Can you ask questions? Are you able to ask questions about his sermon or, um, even what his teaching, his teachings are. Right. Okay. These are huge red flags. Yeah. If you are unable to access your pastor Yeah.
If you can't access your pastor, what is the point of having a pastor? Yes. You can watch teachings. There are so many. There's YouTube, there's, I mean, there's, oh. There's networks now that you can go to that have people on there. Yeah. I mean, a pastor is there to guide and lead the flock to help equip the saints, to teach you to go out and do the ministry.
Hi. How you doing? How you doing? Go ahead. I'm doing attacks. Okay. I'm writing now. Okay. Um, um, I heard a cool, um, quote, the pastor is to equip not enslave. Yeah. Equip not enslaved. Yes. And there is a difference if you are not able to ask questions, which is like a huge mode of learning. That's, it's just a red flag to me.
Like just from common sense. Yeah. And if, if they're in a rush, if they're like, I can't talk. I got, and I get it. Sometimes people have places to go. Yes. But my pastor, uh, each time I've had, I've had two questions for him. Mm-hmm. I haven't been going to this church very long, but I've had a couple questions for him and.
He's always had time for me and, and alls I really need is like three to five minutes. Mm-hmm. But the fact of the matter is, is he's focused on me and he doesn't have one foot out the door. Mm-hmm. Um, ready to leave me because he's focused on, you know, or he's not surrounded by people, um, like. Security.
Yeah. You know, like, do you believe in are, do you, oh, okay. So we're surrounded by security, so we can't talk to you, you know, like what? I just wanna talk to you for a moment. Yes. And it's not like I wanna talk to my pastors all the time. I don't, I, I, you know, but it, there might be a question that I might have that I, I would like to be able to, you know, so this is my problem with mega churches, like how do they have any community or connection or accessibility that, what I heard is there's just so many people and, you know, how are, how's the pastor supposed to pastor all the, I don't know, because Jesus left the 99 for the one, so I don't know.
But he never talks about the 999,000 that he had to leave to go talk to the one. So I don't know. So I do have proof. That you are not in alignment with the New Testament if you are not accessible to the church. Yeah. There's a lot of requirements of a pastor. Right. Okay. Yeah. And if pastoral care connotates that there's some counseling, that there's some accessibility, hospitality is another requirement.
Right. That means there should be some level of accessibility. Right. And pastoral care. How do you, how do you pastor if you don't have a relationship? And we talked about this in a previous um, episode where Francis Chand, who just stepped down from his mega church because he wasn't able to talk to the people.
Yeah. He wasn't able to have a relationship with him. Yeah. 'cause the pastor is also a member of the body. Yeah. Meaning there's all the parts. Right. And. If your foot's not working or your hand's not working right, you need to be able to communicate and go, Hey, something's wrong here. Well, maybe we didn't get it right in, in having a mega church as the church.
I don't think so. Maybe we didn't get it right. And I'm not saying those are toxic churches. No, I'm, I'm just saying, I don't know that I would want to go in because I do think that pastoral care is important. I think the way I overlooked this in my situation before is like, oh, I don't need that. I like anon Say it.
Anonymity. Anate. Yeah. Stop. I like that. Anate anonymity. Menina, you know the word, it's a big one with lots of syllables. You guys know what I mean? Menina anon, you know, anonymity. Anonymity, anonymity. An anonymity. You know the word. So I liked not having any attention on me, no one holding me accountable, sitting in the back of the church.
Yeah, totally. I really like that. Yeah. Really do. I don't, and, but not me. Actually. I don't. But I, 'cause I wanna learn. Well, until I had a question and I realized I couldn't ask it. Yeah. Until I started learning more and diving deeper into the word and wanted community and I realized I couldn't have it.
Yeah. And that community was outsourced to life grips, which I'm not saying there's anything wrong with life grips. There is not. You should be part of 'em. I think it's important to have close friends that you communicate to regularly that can help hold you accountable Yeah. And sharpen you. Yeah. But, um, the problem I have it is when this, in these toxic environments.
Like you said, they're, they're protected to not get asked questions, but you're also don't question the man of God. Yeah. You don't, you're not allowed to question the man of God. Mm-hmm. And you just, the one thing I have heard, um, once upon a time is the submit, submit, submit. And on like this, when I, and I'm sitting here going, okay, I can submit.
And the honor, I have honor, honor, yes. Like, you know, like, I love my pastors. I lift them up, I pray for them, I care, care about them financially. Mm-hmm. I do whatever I can for the, you know, like Right. Not have no problem with that, but why does this keep getting drilled into me? And I'm like, what is this?
This is blah. It made me wanna throw up, like, and I'm thinking. So I can't have a conversation. I can't question something. I can't talk about something. Well, I think what happens in some of these churches that I've studying and what I've seen is they hear directly from the Holy Spirit, and that's the, that they don't think they need that accountability from anyone else.
And we'll talk about that in a minute. But these questions, right? Yeah. Right. Um, these are some of the toxic ways they look to stifle questions. 'cause they don't want 'em, they do not want the questions in a toxic church. Um, and I think maybe it's misinterpreted in some ways. Like this is the holy, innocent side of it.
It could just be, it means you don't trust me, but I don't think that is what's happening. I think it's more of a pride issue that I am the sky. I don't wanna be questioned. Yeah. Okay. In an unhealthy situation. Yeah. I don't know what the motive is behind it, but again, like talked about Well, I'm just saying there, there's, there's, there's a difference between a church who's making a mistake.
And a church who is living in a lie. I agree. Mm-hmm. Okay. I agree. So I think when you're trying to control and manipulate people by not asking questions, it just shows a lack of transparency. And I think, this is my guess is these pastors who don't want these questions, they don't want to be transparent.
Yeah. My, my, and I'm gonna come at this from the, they think you can't handle the information or it's not yours, but, or it's not yours. Shouldn have it. But it is, this is, this is, um. You know, I, and I know we'll get this on the, on the comments, the attacks from, from other leaders that, that think that we're just trying to cause a problem here.
And that's not it at all. I, I don't have, I, I'm okay with not knowing everything. 'cause you're, you're getting ready to bring something out eventually for the church and you're, you're thinking about something. You guys are working on something behind the scenes. I'm not talking, I don't need to know everybody's, I'm talking business about a pattern.
I'm talking about, I'm talking about a pattern. Your an inability to access your pastor. Yeah. I'm not saying that you, he, he doesn't have time all the time for everybody in congregation. I get that. I get that. Right. But if nobody has access to 'em, yeah, that's a problem. If you feel like questioning the leader is like questioning God himself, that's a problem.
Okay. Yeah. That that might be a tip that something's wrong. Mm-hmm. Another pro tip here for you can even question God. Right. So you should be able to question your pastor. Right? And like we said earlier, Paul expected you to test scripture against him. He sure did. And we had ACC people had access to leadership.
So rebuke a wise man and he will love you in Proverbs. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. Abusive leaders do not welcome questions because it's the hallmark of toxic leadership, honestly. Yeah. It's that refusal to entertain questions or. Any comments? It shows a really, a lack of transparency within the pastor and toxic leadership makes these decisions.
They make these, all these decisions on their own without advice or counsel or, yeah. And that is the next problem. Okay. Well, we just, we just did a whole, um, a whole podcast on Wise council and why it's important and why it says it in the Bible, that right where there's no nce, the people fail. So the pastors are supposed to take, um, guidance from the people, the members.
Yeah. And I have past, I have scripture to cover all this and I'll keep it in, uh, the documents below. Um, they're supposed to take advice and counsel from the deacons. Yes. That's the whole point. From the Holy Spirit. Mm-hmm. From a variety of sources that they're not necessarily taking. Responsibility or, um, advice from, so in an unhealthy church, this is what I hear.
I hear from the Holy Spirit. Yeah, I've, I heard that, I heard that. And I, which I think is great. You should, you should hear from the Holy Spirit, but, but the Holy Spirit also speaks through me and you, right? The whole, the Holy Spirit also speaks through your deacons. So this is the question I want you to ask yourself.
Let's say you're walking into a new church for the first time. Ask the ushers, who does? If you can't, you know, obviously you're just starting a new church and you're thinking about, just ask the ushers, who does the pastor? Listen to Who does he go to for counsel? Who? Pastors The pastor? Yeah. Who pastors?
The pastor. Because the pastor is just like the, like the, the congregates. They also need, need pastoring. Mm-hmm. They also need to be cared for, and you should want your pastor or pastors to be cared for. It's so important because they're dealing with the congregation and, and counseling these people and counseling those people.
Mm-hmm. And, and coming up with messages or sermons and so they need to be supported on every level and in open, transparent church. People know this right. People know that the board and that the deacons actually have a process of correction. Yeah. You know, and that if we have a, an issue that we can talk to the pastor about it.
They know that. Right. Okay. Everyone in that's working in ministry and the church will know it. Yeah. Um, or you may hear that he just only hears from the Holy Spirit and 'cause he's a higher level of human than the rest of us. Yeah. But that's not true anymore. When, uh, that's not part of the New Testament.
Yeah. He may have covering and there may be that hierarchy, but he's, God is no respecter of persons and he uses all of us. Yeah. We are all part of the body of Christ. And you know, I've, I've talked about this before with, um, the children and, and the Lord has been working on me about this. So, you know, Jesus went to the temple when he was 12 and his mom, Mary, and, and, and Joseph had gone looking for him.
They couldn't find him. And when they found him, they're like, what? Where you, where you been? And he's like, I've been about my father's business. I've been teaching. Okay, now I get it. It's Jesus. I get it. It's Jesus. Mm-hmm. But we're supposed to reflect him and be like him. Mm-hmm. And so if Jesus was going into temple, uh, the temple at 12 and teaching, then I should be careful with thinking that somebody who's younger than me in Christ or younger than me, can't be bringing the Holy Spirit and his messages to me.
I, I just, I don't, I don't walk that way. And I, and I'm, I'm very careful because I've heard the Holy Spirit come outta my kids' mouth. Me too. Without them even knowing it. And I'm like, Ooh, okay. Outta the mouth of babes. Yep. I already heard you, Lord. Okay. I heard you. Yes. And I received that correction from my own children.
Me too. And so, I don't think we can go about going, oh, well you're only a 1-year-old Christian. You can't tell me. I know the Bible more and I know this stuff more. Now granted, there is a time where the, you know, knowing the word is important, but you I do, you know what I just heard? Hmm. You are the leader in that situation with you and your, you, your children.
Yeah. But you still understand you serve them. Yeah. But you also still understand they have value. Yeah. You also understand that the God speaks through them. Yes. Okay. This happens everywhere. We should all know about this in every situation. Even in the church. Right. Even the Peter. Even Peter an apostle was publicly corrected.
Yeah. By Paul. Yeah. Right, right. So there is correction. If Paul needed or if Peter needed correction. I'm, I'm guessing we all do at some point in our life. Totally. And leaders need peers who can correct them. Yeah. It's just what it is. It is what it is. Yeah. And it shouldn't be bad, and it shouldn't be like, eh, if it's bad, then, then, I mean, they need prayer.
Yeah. Because there's, there, there's some sort of a pride issue. If you see the pastor in error, there is definitely the biblical way to handle this. Right. Well, when I saw, well, there was, um, you, you pull him aside by himself, right? Yeah. I ne I never knew that I, that's, I did not know that because I was taught that pastors are above everybody.
So if you saw the pastor doing something that they shouldn't be doing or something happened, whatever, I don't know, whatever. I did not think that you could go to the pastor and say something to them about that. I thought that was so taboo and that basically I was gonna get stricken and get leprosy some people that, that was my understanding that, uh, that some people teach that.
Okay. Yeah. So here is the problem. We do confront our pastors and we do it in a very honorable way, biblically honoring with respect. Yeah. So if you see them in error, it's okay. It is okay. Yeah. Um, I, I'm saying, I'm not saying you go across the church and badmouth them. I'm not saying we do that. Mm-hmm. But I do say if you have access to them.
If you don't, this is the red flag. Yeah. Like if you can't confront this red flag. Yeah. The, the correct way is, is you go to Matthew 18. Mm-hmm. You have Matthew 1815, which states that you know, when somebody sins against you, that's really against you, but you, you can see them, them sinning. I mean, the word also talks about how we are to avoid the appearance of evil.
Mm-hmm. So we're supposed to avoid these things that, that don't look good. And so. It's okay. And the proce, it's okay to go talk to your pastor and it's okay to say, Hey, I don't understand. I'm wondering this, this is what I've experienced, or you said this, or whatever the, the, the issue is that you're questioning, like, you know, you're, you're, um, was the, um, about Paul getting stoned to death and um, then being risen from the dead.
I think that would be an acceptable thing to bring to the pastor and say, Hey, I saw pass, uh, I saw passage, uh, scripture saying this and, and then you said this. Can you explain that to me? Yes. That's a very polite way of doing it. It's a very politely, and something that I just thought of that I was trying to remember earlier was.
You know, when somebody's questioning us, it means they want more information. Right. It only so means they care. Right. So when we're questioning our pastor, when something's off, it's not to beat them up or to say, Hey, we know more than you. No. It's to go, I love you and I love this church, and I want it to succeed.
Yeah. And I think, um, in a toxic church that it's not perceived that way. Right. It doesn't understand the heart of a question. Right. Um, because there is second red flag, a lack of love. Yeah. And this lack of love is shown from the pulpit and how they treat the people. The lack of love. I, when I've seen a lack of love, there is no compassion, there is no patience.
There is condemnation from the pulpit. There is bullying from the pulpit. Yeah. And. Never really testifying from the pastor, meaning he's not sharing with you his life about what he learned and testifying. Like Revelation tells us too. Yeah. To testify our story. Mm-hmm. And he is a teacher. Right. So they're teaching, but everything is about what you've done wrong, right?
Yeah. I've had, um, this pastor, um, it has been so humbling mm-hmm. To listen to him talk about his life mm-hmm. And listen to how he's made mistakes and how he's done things. Because I've experienced in my past where I, I, I don't ever, I can't ever measure up. And, you know, one of the things that I teach people who haven't come to Christ before, who I, I tell, you know, they have this condemnation that they're walking around with and, and I'm like, listen, when you come to Jesus, you get the benefits from him.
Mm-hmm. And you become the righteousness of God. At that level, the highest level through Christ because of what he did. Mm-hmm. And as you seek that out and learn that, that should shed some of that condemnation. But when you have leaders or a leader that doesn't, that is unrelatable and I'm, I mean, I get it.
It's immature that you ha maybe, maybe it's immature that I have to experience that, that. You have faults or failures in your life, but, okay. I, I don't think it, I think it's, I don't think that's what that is though. I, I think I, that's what I need. I need to go. Okay. Okay. So I'm All right. I'm just gonna keep going.
I, it going, I think narcissism when somebody doesn't ever have a fault. Yeah. It's, I think, I think we're, it's hard for me to digest. We're going into that, um, place where I am really perfect and you guys just really aren't, yeah. I need, you know, there's a lot of grace for the people under me and that work with me, but not for you.
Yeah. And, and that's what we're seeing in an unhealthy church. Yeah, for sure. And a healthy church. Um, maybe the other dream is that, is somebody's just a really good teacher. Yeah. But maybe they should be a pastor. Maybe they don't. They, you know, I, maybe they, they're not good with people this, okay. So here's one of the things that I have wondered about.
Okay. I've hear, heard people say, you know, so and so is great, you know, but they're not a pastor. Okay. And I've heard this about multiple people and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. They're getting paid to be one and, okay. Well that sounds good. And I've heard, I've even heard other pastors talk like this, you know, previously, and, and so, and I, and I've looked at things that, you know, and I've been to multiple churches throughout my life and I've seen this and I've, I've often wondered then why did you, why did they accept the calling as a pastor?
Or did they create their own calling or did they create their own calling? I don't know. Like, we don't know the heart, right. And am Yeah. And am I supposed to follow that then when, when you have multiple people saying they're not posters. Okay. Okay. So, so do you follow that? Well, probably not. I mean, I would open it up to, okay, is there a pattern?
Is this one thing, like, what do you mean they're not a pastor? Are they not accessible to church? Do they not love the church? These are the red flags. Yeah. If it's all of these things, then I would say, yes, leave that church. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. Because you, we, Jesus taught us to lead him by example. Yeah. And if he's not pastoring, I mean, people were asking Jesus questions.
He answered 'em all the time. Yeah. Jesus loved the people. He showed us how to do it. Yeah. Okay. These are, and I get that we're on a journey and people are learning, but when you have a pastor of 30, 40 years not figuring this out yet, you, you may wanna go. Okay. Well, and then that's what I wanna question.
That's this is where this might not be the right place for you to be planting yourself and getting your feet rooted because you might start ignoring a lot of stuff that you shouldn't be. Yeah. And that's where I start to question, that's where for me personally mm-hmm. This is where I started questioning whether or not I heard from God.
Yes. And this is the problem. Okay. I'm like, did I really hear from God? Did you really hear from God? Because
you're not behaving like a pastor according to, um, second Timothy. Right. You are, you adhering to all of the requirements of pastor shit. I'm following somebody who's, who's. Called Pastor so and so, but I could be called Pastor Lisa. Right. But I'm not a pastor. Well, and I think it's in conjunction with all of the other things.
Is this a brand new pastor and he's just on his way, right. And he's learning, or is there a whole host of issues? Okay. Mm-hmm. And this is the next part that brings me to the next part. In an unhealthy church, the system protects the leader at all costs. Yeah. That's the security she talked about. Who is layer, it's a layer of protection of the pastor from who?
From us. Okay. That's weird. Okay. That's weird. Mm-hmm. And I get it at these mega churches, I actually do a little bit. Yeah. Because there's Looney Tunes that wanna come in and hurt, but, but again, it also makes me wonder if that this whole system is appropriate. Yeah. Are we supposed to do that? If you, if the people are denied access to you because your life is at stake, then you're not doing the work of Christ.
So in this situation, or are you, maybe you are, I dunno. As you walk into this, a little bit of brainwashing happens. Right. Like I said, you walk into the church and you learn not to question the pastor because nobody else is doing it. Right. Right. You kind of just learn by watching how other things are happening and you learn how to behave because of how other people are teaching you.
Mm-hmm. Okay. And then you have this, the elder and the, the elders or the staff, they're acting like enforcers. Not, not helping shepherd the church, but they're filtering these questions. They're discouraging. Dissent. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. And they're shielding the pastor from accountability. So I had a question about one of the pastors to one of the staff members, and she just outright lied to me like I knew it was a lie.
Mm. And it was to cover the pastor that way. Sin isn't ever confronted. The pastor's never confronted, it just went away. And guess what? I sweeped it right under the rug with her. Yeah. And I was involved in a few ministries in this church and I found myself. Sweeping stuff under the rug too. And when people would come and ask me questions, I used the same answers that were given to me mm-hmm.
To sweep the stuff under the rug. And before I left and as I left, I realized I have been complicit. And I saw how it happens. And when you see these sexual abuse scandals or these physical abuse scandals happen in every denomination, I'm, I'm going to, you know, we have it in the Catholic church. I'm just gonna use that as an example.
'cause they were exposed in such a big way. But I'm saying it happens in every stinking church. Yeah. It happens wherever there are children because the devil wants to hurt our children. Totally. Okay. Yeah. So we have to be on guard for this. Right. Okay. So the problem I have in these abusive scandals is people work so hard at protecting the system.
Yeah. In the name of God. Yeah. Or protecting God. Instead of the weak and the vulnerable people who have been victimized by the person. Yeah. And then again, by the system covering it up, it enrages me. Yeah. Um, but you can see it happens. So I, if you think about like, it's just, I have a lot of information about the Catholic abuse scandal.
'cause it was such a big deal. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. But later to find out it's happening everywhere. Yeah. And every Denomin, Islam, Judaism, Christian, everywhere. Even at my own church it happened. Yeah. Okay. Um, and I think it was covered up too. Yeah. And it was covered up there too. I didn't know about it till later.
Mm. But I will say this, you saw when the reporters were starting to uncover the Catholic church in, um, I think it was Boston, right? They were starting. They thought, okay, this is probably six priests. Okay. Right. As they were uncovering it. And getting closer. It turned out to be 90 in one city. That was just one city and turned out to be a worldwide nightmare.
Yeah. Same thing happened with the Boy Scouts, by the way. Yeah. Boy Scouts of America turned out to be much bigger than anyone thought it was. And how did that happen? Because people turned the other way. 'cause they go, okay, we do not wanna hurt the church. Even the people we wanna hurt the church didn't wanna hurt the church.
I know. So guess what happened? Those kids, those kids kept kids getting abused. Those kids, they kept getting abused. Yeah. Because it got hidden. They didn't remove these men, they just moved them to a different parish. Yeah. And the kids kept getting abused because guess what? This is what happens. The vulnerable just don't have as big voice as the powerful.
Yeah. And we respect power and authority more than we do vulnerability. Mm-hmm. And that is what's wrong with us. Yeah. And I did the same thing. I did the same thing. Somebody was hurting and it took me a minute to see. 'cause I'm like making excuses for the pastors. Yeah. For why they don't have time to spend time with you.
'cause they're so busy. 'cause they're so busy. They're so busy. You just don't understand their schedules. It's, they're just so busy. And this is what life groups are for. Go to the small group. Yeah. And, and those are good because I, I do know I, yes, I know a lot of people that run 'em. I've, I've had my own life group and, and there is power in that.
Mm-hmm. But I am not a pastor. No I'm not. I am a 49-year-old woman who loves the Lord and loves the word. And I want to read it. I want to learn it. And then I want to help those who have been stuck, um, or don't know Jesus. That's what I'm, I'm not a pastor. No, I'm not a pastor. And there is. A beauty of being a pastor.
Yeah. And this is my request for pastors. If you don't want to do all of the parts of the job, don't do it. Step down, step down, step down. Don't, don't receive the finances and, and the tax benefits and all the things behind it. Yes. And then claim that you're a pastor. Be the pastor. I the, yeah. There's one pastor whom I absolutely love and adore, um, at a church that I went to, and he said to me, Lisa, we are in the business of not hurting people.
Mm-hmm. And that has stuck with me. Because I don't wanna hurt anybody. And I, I have seen so many in churches be hurt by leaders. And the leaders are just having, having themselves a good time. You know, they've got their, their money coming in, they've got their stuff going on, and, you know, you little people get away.
Mm-hmm. Because I don't have time for you because, oh, I got lunch. Oh, I've got a this, oh, I've got a that I'm sure you do, and I know you're important. 'cause I've seen those, I've seen what pastors do. I've been around them and their lives are busy and they are, they go through a lot. I do. So I'm not, I'm not minimizing that, but what I am minimizing is that when you.
I'm called to be a mother. I am a mother, not just to my kids, but to other people's kids that need help. At the time that I'm walking past that I see fall off their bike, I don't just walk past 'em and go, huh, I have two kids of my own and I'm busy. I'm on my way somewhere. No, I'm gonna pick 'em up, make sure their knees are dusted off and help 'em that when you, when you have a calling upon your life, answer it.
Mm-hmm. Do it. I think, and just to clarify, there are some pastors I know, I have a pastor that is a friend and he works his tail off. Yeah, I do. I mean, he is exhaust multiple, but do he is exhaustively accessible to the congregation. Yeah. And to a point to where I think he needs some boundaries. Yeah, for sure.
Honestly, and I love him. I love him dearly. Yeah. And I have seen pastors who work 10 hours a week mm-hmm. And make a ton of money I have too. And I mean, bring it home. Yeah. And I have my friend over here. Working his tail off and barely making it. Yeah. It's interesting. It, the dichotomy, its mm-hmm. And it angers me.
Yeah. It angers me too. And it's not fair. No. So how that happens is they create the layers of enforcers of ministry and, and the p the reason the enforcers, this is how it works so well, is maybe you don't wanna lose your job. Maybe you're one of the staff. Yeah. Maybe you can't fathom the thought of it.
And maybe you've been brainwashed to the point of like, okay, this is okay. This is just how it is. We don't question leadership, we don't do this. Um, people who leave the church are offended. You've fallen into all of the, the brainwashing, the Kool-Aid people that leave the church are offended. Yeah. And we'll talk about that.
We're gonna get there. Mm-hmm. But, um, I think that you can also get there because you want power. Yeah. And you want proximity to power. Mm-hmm. And in a bigger church, there's a lot of power or limelight. Mm-hmm. Or limelight because you like the stage, you like that or you want it, or you're so close to it, or this is what I see.
They like to dangle it in front of the people they know. Yeah. Want it. Yeah. You gotta do these good works if you do A, B, and C. Yeah. We're gonna elevate you. If you, if you do this, then we will look at you. Yeah. Then you'll have proximity man, and I'll pray for you. Yeah. This was my favorite one, that, this was my next big red flag.
If you're in my proximity, I'm gonna be praying for you. Yeah. And this is a church where a lot of healing's and a good thing is you're like, oh, okay. Yeah. I just want that proximity. Yeah. And I saw people try to earn that with these pastors and it made my heart break. Yeah. And then I, when they don't, and then I knew what was happening at some level and still ignored it.
I am so embarrassed. So then I tried to cover these people and bring them in and pray for them and, and try to be the pastor. 'cause that's a little codependent behavior, but it's what happened. Mm-hmm. I'm just telling you. Yeah. It, it's the dirtiness of it all. Mm-hmm. Because, because I didn't want the church to fail because I thought they were teaching something good.
I thought they had, but they were, yeah. They were teaching. They, you have places that teach great things and have great teachers and, and evangelists and, but you see how that protection works. Yes. Oh yeah. I've seen it. I've seen it in multiple churches. Yes. And not just one, and not just two and, and not just one.
Um. What's it called? Not just, you know, like you said in the Catholic church. In the Christian Church. Yeah. Like, I've seen it. We just experience a healthier church. Our, our hope isn't for you to go, oh, we just can't go to church. My hope is that you, like, there are healthy churches out there. I will say one in particular, I'm just gonna name right now, pillar in Scottsdale.
Yeah. It is my church. Yeah. That's my church right now. You have always said that the years that I have known you Yes. You have always talked about that. They love, they know love. Mm-hmm. First and foremost, they know love. Yeah. If they got it all wrong, I, it love does cover multitude and if they got everything else wrong, they know love.
Yeah. And they understand. How to teach it. I, I think it's important that people understand that we are complicit in, in part of this dirtiness because we, if we sweep it under the rug, we sweep it and accept it. And don't confront it. The word says that we are to bring the darkness to the light, and this because of this behavior, these things and people, you don't have to just be here, but the people underneath mm-hmm.
Underneath leadership, we, you, we experience it, um, more so than they do because they're the ones that are hidden. Enforcing it. Hidden, yeah. Right. And so, but we are complicit if we don't come together as the body and go, this is wrong, this is wrong. And you don't have to leave church. You don't have to throw tomatoes at your, at your pastor.
You don't have to be disrespectful. No. You, you get in prayer. Mm-hmm. You talk to the Lord, you do what he's called you to do, and you form relationships and you say, I want a relationship with you dentally. I wanna talk to you about these things because I have some concerns. And if they say no, then you go back into prayer and you talk to the Holy Spirit and you get word from him on your next steps, because I guarantee you there are next steps.
Part of the layers that the head of an unhealthy or toxic church will have mm-hmm. Are these layers of protection. Okay. And they also have suppression of descent. Protocol. I think this is part of the emotional manipulation that happens. Um, and I don't know that it's on purpose at some point and maybe at some level, but then you get to the other side, which we're talking about, which is the very unhealthy and toxic churches.
It is on purpose. They use this idea of spiritual immaturity, like we talked about earlier, to silence you. Yeah. You don't, you don't get it. Yeah. If you're more spiritually immature, you'd understand. But we, we get it. You just, you couldn't handle this information. Yeah. You can't handle the real information in that Bible.
You can't handle the truth. Oh, sorry. Yeah. And then we have the gatekeepers, which it reminds me of an insurance company. Totally. I agree. Yeah. So I have tried this. Mm-hmm. You try get ahold of somebody, a pastor for help. Well, I. I had to explain to the receptionist what was going on in my life that I really wasn't eager to do, because honestly Yeah, I didn't like that either.
I, I, I had to, I called the receptionist and I don't know her. Yeah. I don't know if she cares about confidentiality. I don't care if she understands that this is a a, yeah. Something I don't really wanna share with multiple people. Yeah. And so I get it. I get that I should, I tried to like, briefly state there's a problem going on with my family.
I need some help. Yeah. I'm not good enough. No, we need more. We need more. So I had to give more uhhuh and then, and then I still couldn't talk to a pastor. Then I gotta go to the next level. Oh. And talk to, um, somebody who kind of just goes to church there. So now I gotta share this. Embarrassing thing, Uhhuh, that I'm going through with my family, with multiple people, never get to a pastor, by the way.
Yeah. I call it, you know, the four levels of frustration that they just kept rerouting me, but I was not given to, I, I'm gonna be honest, to a qualified person to help me. Right. They just were not, and it was kind of a big deal. Yeah. It was a big deal my family was going through and I truly needed help. I wanted to leave God and we were in pain and it, I, I completely just forgot about till this podcast and, um, I stayed 'cause I listened to God and, and listened and learned and a lot of healing did come.
Yeah. But I wonder how many people would just go and leave and never come back. I've seen multiple people leave. Mm-hmm. Because of that. Um, all you have to do is go to Google reviews. Well, you, that's really, I mean, you go to a church and, and when you're looking for a church, uh, go to the Google reviews, you'll, but you discern it when you read those too.
Of course. Because some people are just never happy anywhere. No. But if you, if there's a pattern there, if you see multiple Yeah. You know, you see that. Mm-hmm. Um, you might wanna consider that. Now that doesn't mean that they haven't changed. Everybody is redeemable everything. Mm-hmm. You know, we can all come back from it.
So again, if you still, if it's six years ago Yeah, yeah. If you still have this leading right, then, then go. But I, again, I, I've, I've seen that multiple times. Mm-hmm. And, and it's, and it's harsh. You know, I, I left a church and you do start to question. Especially when you leave in a position where you've, you've struggled with the leadership on some level.
Mm-hmm. Um, and when you start to see these things, you do question, do I really hear from you, Lord? Yeah. Did I hear from you? Well, did I go do what I was supposed to do? Does, did, were they what? I mean, what? And then you test out, when you test out everything that was said to you or done to you or whatever, and you still come.
I mean, I'm not saying that there wasn't correction on me, there was correction for some things that I, I could have done better, but overall, I, I wasn't off kilter 'cause I was quite confused. I mean, seriously confused and needed guidance. I, I needed help. Yes. And I was denied help. And
now after that, you start to go. Why was I there? Yeah. Why did you want me there? This is church hurt. Yeah. This is what moves people from God. Yeah. And it did. That's why the Lord gave me that message. You left me because of man. Mm-hmm. Not because of me. And so that's when I was like, oh, and I had this forgiveness, which I thought I had, but there was such a deeper level mm-hmm.
For these people. Um, because I don't think they knew what they did. I don't. And I still don't think they do. And that's okay. They don't have to. I, I'm, I'm fine, but I hope they don't do those things to other people. Well, they they do, but I'm sure they do because this is a pattern of abuse. Yeah. So, um, this is what happens when you deny people help.
Yeah. You make them feel like they don't matter. Yeah. And God's people matter. We matter. Yeah. Well, I knew I wasn't as high up. I knew I wasn't a pastor. Well, if you give enough money in some of these toxic, unhealthy churches, if you give enough money, then you have access. Mm. Yeah. Okay. I love too. And I just, I'm gonna just, I'm not saying that everybody's doing it wrong, but I will say that the church that I do love, which is the pillar Uhhuh, um, they don't look at to see what people give.
They have no, I, the pastor has no idea what anyone gives. And he is at the door, and you can ask him anything after a sermon, and he is out there listening and you can make an appointment with them. Mm. Like it's just how it should be, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, the other side is what we're explaining and this lack of transparency is really what they're trying to evade.
Uhhuh. Okay. Uhhuh. And if I look it always, and I, oh. Forgive me, God if I'm getting this wrong. It seems to always be in these charismatic churches that focus on healing and prosperity gospel. Yeah. And they don't want transparency 'cause they don't want you to know where your money's going. 'cause you don't really need to know.
Yeah. You don't really need to understand that because I'm the leader of the church. Yeah. And there's one vision and it's mine. Yeah. And so I know. That we shouldn't be questioning every book work. And maybe we wouldn't understand why a pastor makes $600,000. Maybe we wouldn't understand that. Maybe, maybe we wouldn't give as much.
Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's the problem, right? Or, and I'm, here's, here's what I'm saying. Like, and we're gonna do a whole segment on the Prosperity Gospel, um, which is part of an unhealthy and toxic church. It's, it's the greed. It is the craziness that people get into and not understanding tithing correctly.
And we are gonna go into depth because after I've been in this situation, um, I've had to unravel it. Yeah. It, it just like I'm unraveling what is healthy leadership Yeah. Right now with you. Right. Yeah. Well, I think it's important that we all do this together. We're supposed to do life together. Yeah. We're supposed to have these conversations and people that lead, I lead life groups.
I lead, I lead people. So mm-hmm. I'm okay with having these conversations because I wanna know what I'm supposed to be accountable for and how I'm supposed to behave. Yes. So it, there's transparency and I, I don't think that's wrong. No. And I have said, I don't mind if my pastor has nice things. I want him to have nice things.
Oh yeah. I don't care about that. I don't care. That's great. I, what I do care about, which just sets me off, is when I have a fellow human with me giving her last $50 because of the way it was set on the stage in a very manipulative way as they drive off in a Ferrari. Yeah. And won't stop to help her. Yeah.
And won't give her the time of day. Yeah. And it was her last money. And she is the girl in that book. Yeah. She is the girl giving her last penny and giving more than they ever did. Mm. Sorry. Yeah. I'm a Okay. That might have been a little angry. I am a little angry. People have been hurt. People I love have been hurt.
Yeah. And I don't like it. You don't buy your healing. No. You don't buy, but you do support the ministry that feeds you. Yes. You do support that. That's where your tides and offerings go. And we will go into a, we have a whole podcast for that. And that is important. And I don't, trust me, I do, I did not have a, um, problem.
I don't have a problem with, with my leaders, um, making a livable wage. Our next topic is about the misuse of spiritual gifts. How are your studies on that? I have my own. I have my own, you know, um. I, you see a lot with healing. You see, um, the misuse of the healing gift of the prophecy gift of these toxic pastors telling people, oh, I heard from God.
This is what you're supposed to do with your life. Yeah. It, it, it's misused a lot in prophecy. Now, I have nothing, there's nothing wrong with prophecy. I get prophetic words from time to end, but I would never misuse that and say, Lisa, God told you to do my dishes every day for the next week. I would say, no, he did not.
Yes. But if when a pastor tells you that you're not supposed to married or you're supposed to marry this person, he might be getting a word, but you wanna test that with God. Yeah, totally. Yeah. You don't want to ignore a prophet or his word. Yeah. But when it becomes emotionally manipulative, which this often does in these settings Yeah.
In healing, you know. Is it Paula White or Paula Dean? Paula White. Okay. We, Paula Dean's the cooker. She's the one who said, if you send a thousand dollars over Easter, you're gonna get your spiritual blessing. Ooh, okay. This is a misuse. Yeah, totally. Okay. Of everything. Yeah. Um, you're outta God's will if you don't obey me.
Yeah. That's an manipulation. These are, if you leave this church, you're gonna lose your blah, blah, blah. What? Yes. God told me to tell you this. And it always benefits the guy telling you. Yeah. Or your divine assignment always coincides with them. If it's a one-off, it's one thing. But when you start to see a pattern and this happening to other, and you got a pastor arranging marriages and telling people, um, this the word of faith community in North Carolina, they weren't allowed to buy a house without this pastor's permission.
Yeah, I know. And you're gonna live with this person. Some of the children had to live in different houses. You have a lot of crazy stuff happening. Okay? That's the far end of it, but it's toxic and abusive. Um, you have Jesus, you have the Holy Spirit, you have friends. If anybody said to me, you have to get my permission mm-hmm.
To sell your house. I would say What? No, I don't, no, I have free will and I can, and it can be a wrong decision. 'cause yes, if I seek out the Holy Spirit and I talk to him and he's like, Lisa, now's not the time, the market's changing. Hold onto it for six months or eight months, or a year, whatever. And I don't do that, and I choose free will, then I can reap the consequence of maybe my house is on the market longer, or I don't get as much as I could have.
Or, you know, I, I wanna be in the will of the Lord, not in the will of dentally. But do you see what it's trying to foster? Totally. I do. Yeah. Dependence on the pastor. Yeah. And not on Jesus by Felicia. And that is the problem. No, that is the problem. We want dependence on the Holy Spirit. We look to our pastors for leadership, for guidance, for word, for, for equip.
There. They're to equip us. Equip us, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. But Matthew 7 21, 23 warns. That even those who prophesied, cast out demons and perform miracles can do so without truly knowing Jesus. Yeah. So we have to know that these things can happen and that these gifts do not equal maturity. Right. Um, so we have to Yeah, the gift is the gift.
Yeah. The gift has been given Yeah. By God. And, and he doesn't take it back. He He gives freely. Yes. He gives it. So the gift is not the character of the person. That's the character of God. The gift is given by the Lord. And these gifts and these words and prophecy and I, I, I want us to come into obedience.
Like, so a prophet is gonna give us a word. It's not gonna give us this constant direction for everybody's life. That's just not how God works. No. That's not how he works. No. And these are spiritual theatrics, I think, and it's supposed to edify and encourage you. Yes. I had, I had one of my pastors one time say to me, um, I was in, oh, it was prayer time and, um, I was going through a lot and he was in prayer, and this really blessed me.
Mm-hmm. And I, I started crying. Then he came up to me and he said, Hey Lisa, I got a word for you. I was in prayer and I kept hearing the Bob Marley song. Three Little Birds. And he said every little thing is gonna be all right. Every little thing. Yeah. Be I was Okay. Alright. And funny thing was, I was hearing that song and so then I, I was listening to it.
And as I was going through this period, I realized everything is going to be all right. So I was encouraged. Yes. I was edified. I kept putting it back onto the Lord and I was like, okay. He didn't say, don't marry this guy. Your life's gonna be doomed. No. Or you're gonna be cursed. No. And he didn't say, you know what?
You gotta, or you gonna be cursed. Give, you gotta give a thousand dollars in order to get this prophecy from me. No, no. He gave it freely, that spiritual abuse. Yeah. Just so you know. We'll just call that out. Spiritual abuse. And then there's the spear. Spiritual theatrics. Spiritual theatrics don't always represent the truth.
Right. Let me leave it at that. Yeah. Um. 'cause I don't know what's in somebody's heart. Yeah. And I'm not gonna claim to, yeah. So I'm, that's why I'm stopping it there. If obedience to a person. Is required over obedience to God. It's a red flag. It's a red flag. It's a red flag because God is first. So one of the teachers in this church that I'm speaking of told me that if the Holy Spirit tells you something and then the pastor tells you something different, you go with what the pastor said.
And I was like, okay, this was my last red flag. Yeah. This was the last one that goes, I cannot get behind this. Yeah. I cannot get behind this anymore. This is wrong. It was the straw, I think the final straw. But I saw people getting hurt. Yeah. And um, I couldn't do, I couldn't abide in it anymore 'cause I felt complicit.
But that was the last one. I'm like, okay, this is so wrong. Mm-hmm. You listen to the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Okay. Now I will say this. Sometimes we need to make sure that it is the Holy Spirit speaking. Right. Okay. Yeah. And that's why it's so important to know the word and know his voice and spend your time.
Finding that. Mm-hmm. And there is grace there. Of course, the Lord has grace. And so if you are new to the faith, if you're new to Christianity and following Christ mm-hmm. Um, that's what, that's what the people are supposed to surround you and help you with. And to kinda, you know, you're the little sheep.
You're the little lamb. Yeah. We gotta help you. Um, because I was helped. Yes. I was coddled by multiple people. Praise God. I was helped. 'cause I, I didn't know. Um, and then, you know, I continue to seek him out. I went to Bible college and, um, I don't know everything by any means, but I've definitely left the building.
And so I feel better, I feel confident in going, Ooh, I can question. Mm-hmm. You know? 'cause I do hear from the Holy Spirit because I've practiced listening to him. I've said, I am his sheep. I hear his voice. I do not listen to that of a stranger. So I am constantly doing that. Now, I, I. I think it's so important to follow your leader and submit even when you don't agree with him or her, him, when you don't agree with him.
But I think what you have to do is make sure that what he's doing is aligned with the word of God. Because if it isn't, you do not wanna follow that. I think what that can look like is your pastor telling you to do something that's unbiblical? Yeah. And you just assuming, oh, well you know what dentally, she's, she's been a Christian for a long time.
Mm-hmm. And so she knows mm-hmm. She gets Right. You know, she knows she's a leader. So this happened to me. Yeah. So I had went to Bible college. Yeah. And I was taking pages and pages of notes of verses this pastor was getting wrong. Like I, I just, I knew enough to know that this was incorrect. Mm-hmm. It was just incorrect.
And it was pages and I go to. A person who was my friend who had been at the church for many years and asked her, what do I do with this? And she goes, burn it. And I'm like, okay. And I thought, okay, that's how we do it here. Yeah. That's how we do it here. 'cause we'd been taught from the beginning. You don't question.
That's honor. We've been taught that you don't question. If you question them, you will get leprosy. Yeah. You had been taught, you question them, youll get mocked first from day one. And if the question isn't good enough or isn't in a line, you will get mocked and made fun of on stage, on stage in front of everybody.
So it, you learn by not wanting to get hurt and maybe not being fully sure of myself mm-hmm. At that point. Yeah. And walking through stuff in my life that made me already feel a little insecure. Um, that that's how we behave. Yeah. And it just builds, it builds greater and greater. But it kind of starts with the shut your mouth.
Yeah, shut your mouth. And I'm not saying we are rude, I'm not saying you be disrespectful, but you shouldn't, you should be able to have a conversation. Yeah. You should. Never, being rude is that, doesn't, that's, doesn't even align with Christ. Christ was never rude. No, he wasn't rude to anybody. No. He did stand up and draw lines and was firm against things.
But that doesn't make it rude. I don't know if I talked about this, but So this word of faith, church beating people up to get the demons out of him, um, don't listen to your pastor. Okay. That's the far end of it, right? Like listen to the Holy Spirit on that. Yeah. I'm pretty sure he wasn't having everybody who had a healing or needed healing get beat up.
No, you just don't do that. Like, I mean, common sense would tell us that, but when you are in the middle of it and you've been groomed because there's a grooming that happens from the minute you go in there and how you're supposed to behave. Okay. How, what you're supposed to do. And as you go, you learn how to behave.
Yeah. And then it, it's weird. And you and I saw it in these cults as I was studying this. You don't, nobody joins a cult. No. Nobody's like, I'm gonna go join a cult today. No, you kind of go in, you want community, you want these things and you wanna be part of it because it looks good and exciting. 'cause they don't come out.
The people love bomb you when you start those things. Yeah. Like you are like, this feels good. Yeah. Yeah. Like, love me, they want me here. Yeah. And then, and then it starts to unravel after you've been in a little bit. Well, it, it brings me back to that, um, I've used this before with my children. When you start.
Using substances, you start with the mild ones. Mm-hmm. So you start here and you know, if you drink whatever, that's none. I don't care. It's none of my business. I'm not judging that. I'm not saying you're bad or anything that I do have a glass, like that glass of wine on occasion, but not right now. I do not.
I don't drink and I haven't for a long time. Mm-hmm. And I have no desire. I don't like it. And, but whatever my, I have lots of friends that do none of my business. It's never served you well? No, not or anyone else really. No. And I would never promote it. Is anyone's life better? 'cause they drank or did drugs?
No, no, no. But what I would tell my children is if you start drinking, you'll go to a party. Mm-hmm. And then you'll have shots, then you'll smoke weed. You talking about my childhood. That's my child. Did. Then you'll go to the next thing next and get pregnant when you're 19. Then you go to the next thing.
Yeah. That's what I did. Yeah. And then you, then you're over here. Yep. So you didn't get here by just taking a leap. No. This was by slow gradual steps. Yep. Because this all felt good. This all seemed right. Mm-hmm. It was okay and everyone was doing it. And every, and, and so you're like, and that's part of the whole cult thing.
Yeah. Everyone else is doing it, so it must be okay. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah. Look at their life. They're okay. Yeah. I mean, look. And so anyways, that's, that's my analogy. And that's what, when you were saying that, that's kind of what I was thinking was you start here. And because I mean, the word says my people perish for a lack of knowledge.
And I don't think it just means physical death. I mean, it can, I, I think it means spiritually. Mm-hmm. Because knowing how the Bible is, it's a living, breathing word. Right. So it, it, it continues. So I don't think it's, I don't think it's just your, you're, you're, you're dead. You're dead. No, I think it's a spiritual thing.
I think it's a personality thing. A character character thing. A life thing. It, it, it's something that you can perish. So know his word. Know his word. Get in the word, get in the Bible. Yeah. Our next red flag is when the church discourages from you looking anywhere outside of the church from information.
And that can be even subtly. So one of the things that. Got my hackles up early was they said, you don't get, don't go to other churches. You don't listen to any other messages by ours. 'cause we have the one vision for you. Yeah. But, and don't listen to other pastors. 'cause if you're called under me, then you have to just, you're under my covering.
Yeah. So what was interesting then, I was always wondering, so I couldn't find that in the Bible, but there was, um, I, I haven't found it either. There was interesting how messages seem to apply to me that I listened to other pastors, so I was disobedient in this because I thought it was weird. Mm-hmm. Um, and the idea that you can't hear from anyone else.
Just, just seemed wrong to me, but it was a step of an isolation. Okay. Yeah. It seemed wrong to me because if we're all part of the body, this, I didn't like this when I was a young girl, I was part affiliated with this religion, and that was one of the things that they taught. Mm-hmm. And so it didn't make sense to me.
Mm-hmm. If we're all a part of him and we have these four walls that we, not everybody can meet in these four walls. Mm-hmm. So we have to have multiple PL buildings. Right. Right. And multiple places to meet. So it just didn't make sense. And, and it helped when, when my husband and I, we moved us to Pocatello, um, and we didn't have a church.
Mm-hmm. And so, um, we were looking for a church. So while we were looking, we found messages on YouTube. We found messages, um, on tv. And when I knew it was the Holy Spirit was, here's two people. That had two messages that I know don't talk and aren't calling each other. Hey, are you talking about, uh, tithing this week?
Yeah. I'm talking about tithing this week. I know that's not what was happening. Interesting. So, so I can see when the Holy Spirit is being used, when the same message is coming out, two different broadcasts, two different, um, um, uh, you know, places, different churches, and I'm like, okay, so this is, this is what the Holy Spirit wants me to hear.
Mm-hmm. And so there was a theme, you know, the Holy Spirit. He, he, so it's like God could use all kinds of people to open you up to him. Yeah. And you were spending time with him. Yeah. And listening to the word and verifying Yeah. Doing all the right things. Yeah. Okay. So the problem I have with when this church tries to isolate you from only hearing from them.
Yeah. And if it's an unhealthy church, which it likely is, if it's saying that Yeah. Right. This creates an echo chamber. Yeah. Like you only hear what we hear and it reduces your ability to discern. And increases your obedience to them. Yeah. And your dependence to them. Right. And I, I get that we want to support our church and Yes, yes.
Support your church, listen to your church, tithe to your church, all of those things. But when somebody's trying to isolate you and I mean those one church, I'm thinking of the word of faith church in North Carolina. Um, you're not even supposed to read the Bible too much 'cause they don't want you too dependent on the Bible.
They want you listening to that pastor. Her name is Jane Whaley, I believe. Um, the rules. The rules. Um, next Right flag. There a ton of rules. Yeah. Yeah. That aren't written in the Bible. Yeah. That are not written in the Bible. So like for instance, she had like, you can't wear Nike shoes. You have to run by your marriage if you're gonna get married or who you're gonna date.
All of these things you had to run by the pastor. Can you imagine having that kind of time in your day? No. And if you can't, what's funny is, is if you can't get to your pastor, how can you run it by him? That was the problem. Right? Yeah. So, so then you're just stuck. I don't know what to do. I'm stuck here.
Yeah. How do I if I can't, if I can't get you? They want that dependence, but they don't want the dependence. Its a fascinating. Conundrum. Yeah. It is a conundrum. That's where I would ask the Lord, I don't understand this. Please make it make sense. That's where my pee brain would be like, I don't understand this.
How, how am I supposed to be led by somebody I don't have access to? Yeah. And how are they supposed to be able to make these decisions in my life when I don't have access to 'em? My next red flag rules for the, but not for me. So this is what I really saw. You need to give us all kinds of grace much. You don't get any.
Yeah, you don't get any. Yeah. You can't make a mistake. Um, you'll get punished. Ostracized. Mm-hmm. You'll get bullied from the pulpit. But the pastors, they must have unlimited amounts of grace for doing the worst of the worst things that you would imagine in a church. Well, there's grace for them. I went to a church and I, uh, loved my pastor.
I really did. And when he left, he retired. He made a huge mistake and they didn't tell us. Okay. They, he just said he was retiring. Yeah. And come to find out the real reason he left was a pretty big sin that he had been, um, engaged in. And the reason I believe that the Bible tells us that we are supposed to bring that sin out for pastors different than us, right?
Yeah. Mm-hmm. They are supposed to confront the church and confess their sin to the church. Yeah. Which I don't know if we ever see, I mean, I guess we do. I have seen that. Okay. So I have seen that. I have actually, after I said that, I repent from that. Like the pillar actually he just did it recently. Yeah.
So he's talking about what he's going through. He is testifying his, what he's going through. Yeah. But it, it, it made me sad because I'm like, we would've prayed for you. Yeah. We would've prayed for you, we would lifted you up. We're supposed to support you, we would've prayed for you and lifted you up. But I will say this, in their defense, in in this sense, how many of us.
The congregation mm-hmm. Would not lift them up, but would tear them down. Yeah. But that's not what the Bible says to worry about. No, it's not. Yeah. But that's what, but that would happen. That's the fear. What would the fear? That's fear. That's the fear that kept him from doing the right thing. Totally. So I think that's the fear that keeps the system in place for sin.
That's why we as a congregation, yes. Need to behave according to how the word says. Yes. Still need to have that grace so that, well, and we, we do. But also, so in the church, in an unhealthy, toxic church, vile things happens. Sexual abuse happens. Yeah. Physical abuse happens. Yeah. Embezzling from people happens embezzling from the church happens.
Um, taking advantage of teachable's, finances happens. These are all things that happen. Um, there's many more, I'm just thinking of things that I just know of, and. The problem is, is when the church just covers it. Yeah. Okay. No, like love covers a multitude of sins, but it also serves as a strong warning when the pastor comes out and says, Hey, this happened.
Yeah. Okay. So you went to a new church and I loved that the pastor was having a problem. Yeah. And he comes out and said, Hey, I'm going through it. Oh. That's where I was like, I'm headed there. Yeah. This church, because I my church, I wanna support these people. Mm-hmm. I wanna love on them. And I have continued to think about the, the man who, who stepped down.
Mm-hmm. And I've continued to pray for him. And the Lord has kept him on my heart. And I never met the guy, in fact, the new pastor, I don't even know what he did, but I, or what they were going through, it doesn't even matter. No. The point is, but the fact that he came out and said that I was like. You are my people.
Yeah. The people that are able to say, 'cause I, I really, I mean sin is sin in my opinion. I get it. So I don't have, I, I really am not judging that, that, um, I, I will judge the sin. Like I will, I will say, Hey, if you are, um, committing sexual abuse against children, you don't get to serve in this church. Yeah, totally.
You do not get to, but you still have access to Christ. Yes. And you still are and able, and I'll still pray for you. Yes. Because I want your heart transformed because the world is an ugly place right now. Yeah. That's what, that's my point is, is that I will still, you still have access to him. Mm-hmm. And you still, um, deserve to, to come to repentance.
Yes. Uh, just like I do. Yes. So I guess that's my point. So we do have grace, but the covering is what I think. Um. Seems to be unfair. That taking rough and it's, it's the cover up. Yeah. It's the cover up, not covering the sin, not loving you in grace. It's the cover up. Yeah. That makes me mad because that's how the sin propagates and becomes more and more and more bigger.
Bigger and bigger. Bigger. You can just see it with the sexual sin, right? Yeah. That one's, that one's a big one. Yeah. That's easy to identify for sure. Mm-hmm. If you decide to leave the church. Right. Do you feel like you can or what will happen? You're a dissenter. You're offended. Yeah. Are you called names?
Because this is what happens like, um, I think they're called wags or suppressives or the offended in charismatic churches. Yeah. The offended are the people who leave. And it seems like the leadership can never take responsibility because honestly, how would they know? Well, how would they know? Nobody's talking to them.
Yeah. You, you can't know because you won't talk to people. Yes. If you're not having those conversations, then you really don't know. So you're making assumptions that they're offended. Yeah. But you know this, and I left a church recently and that was the first question I go. And I, I, I did get angry and I handled it inappropriately, and I'm sorry, but I said that is spiritually abusive what you're doing.
Yeah. I just told you why I was leaving. Yeah. It is wrong. Stuff that is happening here is not right. And I get, I have no means to express it to anybody who will listen. Yeah. I expressed it to my ministry leaders and they wouldn't take it any further if I can't express it to the pastor. And I couldn't understand.
So in my view, my only way I could express my, the only way I could express that this was wrong was to walk away from the church and take my seat and my money from the church because I didn't feel good anymore. I couldn't give with a cheerful heart anymore. Yeah. So I had to leave and let's say I was just, I was offended.
I, I wouldn't be good to the unity of the church body there. No. Okay. So I had to leave. Yeah. Um, but. When I, it took me six months to leave, maybe four months, maybe a year. It took me a long time to leave, even though I knew, I think it took you longer than that. Yeah. Because I think you were struggling with it.
Um, yes. Before. So it, it, it's really, it's it's narcissism. It's the gaslighting. Yeah. It's the, that, that's, yeah. It's like saying, oh, I know you just said all this, but you're offended. Mm-hmm. Like, that's spiritually abusive people. Mm-hmm. Being gaslit telling me that I didn't just tell, say all these things and I didn't give her specifics even because I knew she knew.
Yeah. Like, I know, you know, if I know, you know. Right. Yeah. And I, I wasn't, I didn't wanna gossip. Mm-hmm. And this is my next issue, gossip. So this is another way to suppress people don't gossip. Okay, so here's the difference between gossip and we've talked about it. Tell me what gossip is to you. You had an experience with Dave and then I take that experience and then I go and say to somebody else as if
for entertainment. Yeah. And not, and not, you know, trying to get help on how I can help you or, you know, whatever it is. Okay. I'm just, it's basically to, to tarnish your name or to mock you or whatever. So these toxic churches want silence in every area. So it is gossip if you're having a problem with a pastor and you take it to a ministry leader, or if you have a problem with somebody else.
I, I, I mean. I kind of wanna go back to your previous issue. Um, the gaslighting. The gaslighting, it, it goes hand in hand with the gossip. You know, I've been a part of a church where I've experienced some of this. Mm-hmm. What you're talking about, it causes you to freeze and so you're not able to work through things because I can't say anything.
I can't say anything. That's why I was there so long. Yes. I was, there was a lot of red flags going on for a long time. And I think, I think the brainwashing gaslights you, it, it really gaslights you. It does me anyways, because I've been manipulated before. Yes. And so it's easy for me to see. And in fact, one of these pastors, um, the one that told me that we are in the business of not hurting people.
Mm-hmm. This is one of the things that he said. He goes, you know, Lisa, people that have been manipulated before and have overcome it or have recognized it, they see it and they get really mad. And so, which is good because, you know, you're like, I don't wanna be manipulated again. Right. I don't wanna go down that road.
And so these, I don't want other people being manipulated. No. Like this. No. And you can, you can see those. And, and again, I don't care the intention. Yeah. I don't care. I'm not judging the heart. I don't care the intention, it's the result. I'm talking about the fruit of it. Mm-hmm. Talking about the fruit of it and what it does to the people and how it makes you feel.
And that's, I did say feel, um, and how it makes you feel now you have to, well, let's be aware, you have to do what the word says, but there are feelings that you get, which are red flags. Mm-hmm. Because it doesn't align. There is an, um, an inner knowing going, oh, wait a minute. This isn't right. This isn't right.
And you're supposed to, you're supposed to listen to those. Red flags mm-hmm. That come up, question them and test everything against the word, not against yourself, your self-righteousness, your this or that. But against the word, if you have been a victim of narcissistic abuse mm-hmm. In your life. Or emotional abuse.
Or toxic parenting. Mm-hmm. Okay. You might feel like this community is your place. Totally. It's your tribe. 'cause you might be surrounded by a bunch of people just like you Yeah. Who have been through the same thing, who feel comfortable in this setting. Yeah. And you might, it, it might take a little bit longer to get used to it because if you're in a highly toxic church.
They're, they're good at it. They're good at their trade craft. Mm-hmm. Okay. And, um, you, you have to like, give yourself some grace, even if you've been through it and had this figured out, maybe you understand that and you've broken free from it. And you found yourself here again. 'cause that's what I did.
Yeah. And I was It hurt so bad. Yeah. Like, I'm like, am I ever gonna learn? That's what I, that's, am I ever going to learn? Do I hear from you guy? Did you send me here? Did I hear, get it wrong? Well, the whole thing I started questioning was, did I even go to the right Bible college? Did I do the right this? I mean, have I, because Yeah.
Have, have I heard these things at one point I've had, uh, leadership correct me from the pulpit and I know it was directed at me because it was a specific thing that I experienced and was doing that day. That day. Mm-hmm. And. When I confronted or asked that person if they, they said, no, that wasn't directed at you.
And I'm sitting here going, but that was Holy Spirit inspired. Mm-hmm. And so I'm sitting there going, okay. I, I mean, the amount of questions mm-hmm. That I have had, um, on this journey or whatever, this walk mm-hmm. It's been difficult because it's set. It will cause you to get off the course. Well, because this is authority.
Right. And this is power. And you, you're trained. Right. Okay. This is important to listen to and heed and, and you're not wrong. That's the problem. You're not wrong. Yeah. But it's the authority that we're listening to. Is it godly inspired? Yeah. Or is it human inspired or is it somebody who just wants to be on stage and be worshiped?
Right. You know, we have to, we have. And you'll know that eventually, right? Yeah. But it's hard to see sometimes. Right. Um, one of the things that kept me there, Uhhuh was. You'll be cursed. People are cursed who leave this church. And I, I think I kind of believed it because I would look at some people who left the church and their lives weren't better.
And I didn't realize or think about why. I was like, oh, it's 'cause they left the church. Now having left, I realize, oh. It's because I moved further away from God. And maybe they did too. That's exactly it. And, and that's what spawned this, yeah. This whole podcast is because I do not want to be far from God.
No. And I don't, I don't want people to be, I've heard of others leaving churches. Mm-hmm. And they no longer even go to church or believe anymore. And that is where it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Mm-hmm. These men and women and people, all of us in the church, we make mistakes and we're fallible. Yep. And we have to correct and be corrected.
Mm-hmm. And so you have to have a humble heart. Yes. And it's not to come at people with, with your nails out and your claws and your, you know, your fangs to shred people. That's not what Jesus did. But he corrected us. He did. He did. He did. He corrected us. And that's what called you. And he didn't use fear tactics.
No, he didn't. He didn't. Nor did he use control. No. Or manipulation. No. So those are hallmarks, right? Yeah. Silence. No dissent. Okay. These are, these are just just parts of authoritarian leadership, which if you've ever experienced narcissistic abuse, it's a lot, it's a lot alike. Mm-hmm. Right. Are we offended or is there bad behavior happening here?
Right. Okay. Mm-hmm. Um, and ask yourself that honest question. Ask God. But one of the, here's some questions I just want you to think about. Can I ask honest questions in this church? Okay. Right? Yeah. Do I have to ask permission before making life making decisions, um, whose word takes priority? God's or the leaders?
Does the leader point me to Jesus or is it about their stage presence? Okay. Or does it point back to themselves? Maybe they're not big stage people. Yeah. Um, am I encouraged to study the Bible for myself? Am I encouraged to ask questions? What happens if somebody disagrees with leadership? Yeah. Um, I did see this.
Just quick note that they would get mocked. Mercifully. Mercilessly. Mm-hmm. They would get mocked. Yeah. Um, would I feel free to leave this church and if I felt led to go somewhere else, would they, would I have their blessing? Would they be like, you know what? It's been great having you. Like, thank you.
Thank you for joining us while you tuned. Well, you know, I'm gonna pray for you. Is that, how is that the response? Okay. So I wanna give you just a little encouragement. If anything of this conversation resonated with you, please don't ignore it. It might not be rebellion, it might just be the Holy Spirit saying, Hey, listen, okay, keep seeking Jesus.
It's not, he's just not like these people. No, he is not. Who have misused his name, he's not, and don't be so sensitive. I, um, really quick, my, we watched, um, some old clips from, from Family Feud mm-hmm. From years ago. And my daughter was so amazed and disgusted by Richard Dawson because on each side there was women Uhhuh and he would come up and kiss every one of 'em on the lips and he would hold their hand and he'd come right into their face and be like, come to talk to him and know, just come to come to Daddy.
Okay. Talk to, and, you know, I probably all, all these women were, you know. I could see like, and one of 'em was like a 15-year-old girl, and, and I'm sitting here going, oh my gosh, back in this day in the seventies, Uhhuh, it was okay to do this. Do you think it was okay when Biden was sniffing their hair? I don't know.
Joking wasn't for me. Just joking, just joking. It wasn't for me. But it's, you know, when people get to this point where they're like, no, no, no. Yeah. And, and I was like, do not kiss my lips and kiss her lips and her, you know, just don't, don't, don't come in close like that to me. Don't, you're in my space. Not that anybody would wanna, whatever.
I get it. I'm 49 and I'm married and all this stuff, but I'm saying like, what? I have seen what I saw, and I remember being a kid and experiencing these things from men. It's changed the, the, the, the tide has changed. Yeah. It's, we're more open to going, oh, wait a minute, people have boundaries. Mm-hmm. And it's okay to have those and, and God, and he wants you to, God wants you to.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. He doesn't want you just, you know, going in for a, you know, a big kiss, kiss on the lips for everyone in the congregation. I mean, who, you, who? You gotta watch 'em. You gotta watch him. It's funny. Uh, I'm like, wow. But anyway, so. Well, that's the church. It is. Don't be so off. Don't be so offended by things.
That's not, that's not our heart here. No, that's not at all. And don't be nitpicky because that's not the heart either. Not the heart at all. These are kind of red flags, right? Red flags. Getting scripture wrong. No. You know, all the things. Um, another thing that I realized before I left that, am I trying to place people?
Am I trying to please people or place Christ? Yeah. Okay. Towards the end. I had shifted because I was programmed to please them. Yeah. Not the people. 'cause they teach you to Yeah. Because if you please me, you're gonna get proximity. Yeah. And I'll pray for you. You'll get the proximity. Yeah. So, um, just a little encouragement, one Peter 5, 2, 3.
Be shepherds, not lording it over them, but being examples. And that's our responsibility too. Remember? 'cause we are leaders as well and his yoke is easy. Yeah. It's, it's not, it's not heavy. His burden is light. Yeah. Um, if you have been spiritually manipulated or wounded, I realize that we took a very light stance on this and there is a whole spectrum of huge abuse.
Yeah. From here to here. Mm-hmm. Let me say this. That's not God. No. That is not his heart or intention for you. That was someone misusing his name and there is healing, clarity and freedom in Christ. Mm-hmm. You are not alone. You have us. You have us. And just because you leave a church of four walls does not mean you leave the body Christ.
And when you understand that, I'm not saying just pick up somebody offended you leave a church. No, no. Find a place, get planted. Trees cannot have roots unless you're planted. But I do know that God does call people to move sometimes and leave. Mm-hmm. And so as you listen and heed, you know it's okay. It's okay when something is unhealthy to go, you know what?
I don't think I'll be eating McDonald's every day. It's not so healthy. No. Can it sustain me for a little while? Maybe in the end times. Maybe in the end times just joking. Those burgers are no anyways. But you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Right. Like my point is, is that you can eat that. Yes. But it's not wise to live off of that.
No. No. No, actually you'll get very hurt. Yeah. So until then, stay rooted in the truth, grounded in grace and stay free. Thank you guys for listening to the Red Ledger. We so appreciate if you're still here at the end. We know this was a long one. We get it. We even have, thanks for hanging with us. We have even more to say, but we had to shut up.
Yeah. Be proud of us. We lost batteries. Praise God. Thank you guys. God bless.