Programming Throwdown

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In this holiday episode, Jason and Patrick answer questions from listeners. They also look back at the past year’s challenges and victories.

Show Notes

In this holiday episode, Jason and Patrick answer questions from listeners. They also look back at the past year’s challenges and victories.

00:15:35 (Kevin)
What's been the biggest thing that pushed you to learn more during your career?
Was it taking a new job and moving somewhere, doing stuff in your spare time or something like a new hobby or anything else?

00:29:38 (Kevin)
Favorite city to live in or visit?

00:31:29 First Winner (James B.)

00:32:21 (Clever Clover/James)
Next biggest tech prediction.

00:36:28 (Paul) 
If we could standardize all the code there is out there to one particular language, which language would it be and why would it be Python?

00:40:40 Second Winner (Collin G.)

00:41:21 (Necrous)
If you could redo your career and education path, what would you change?

00:47:12 Third Winner (Matt I.)

00:47:48 (MQNC)
What is the dirtiest hackiest anti-pattern piece of code you ever wrote in full consciousness and even maybe enjoying the thrill and why was it the way to go?

00:54:36 (Leedle)
Thoughts on server side rendering React and NextJS?

00:57:00 Fourth Winner (Glenn S.)

00:57:25 (NC Plattipus)
The visual programming language, LabVIEW?

01:05:02 Fifth Winner (James F.)

01:05:53 (Gethan)
Future technology or big technologies, what about AR? 

01:10:18 (Gethan)
On the topic of getting a master's degree or classes, do you see a benefit of getting certifications? 

01:18:16 Sixth Winner (Don R.)

01:19:38
Predictions we made last 2020 and how they held up.

01:26:00
Farewells


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What is Programming Throwdown?

Programming Throwdown educates Computer Scientists and Software Engineers on a cavalcade of programming and tech topics. Every show will cover a new programming language, so listeners will be able to speak intelligently about any programming language.

00:00.00
digitalghost
There we go. Okay.

00:00.12
Patrick
Okay, are we episode one twenty four let me bring up a show notes page so I can take notes so you can continue.

00:06.35
digitalghost
Cool. Yeah, we're episode one twenty four so some of y'all are hearing the pre-show what does that call like the pre role or something when I listen to other podcasts. They say something a term but I forgot what it's called. But yeah, the I'm ah I'm a podcast junkie still you know years and years later I'm still still a you know it reminds me of um of a buddy who was at a band and even when he was on tour.

00:23.70
Patrick
You listen to other podcasts now. Okay.

00:39.64
digitalghost
You know, constantly doing shows and having to play the same song over and over again. He was still like on the weekend or I guess on the days he wasn't performing going to other people's shows and so um, he's just really into it and I guess I'm really into podcasts.

00:51.31
Patrick
Oh okay I already had something marked 1 24 but it was a show they got with okay so I need to change this.

00:55.95
digitalghost
Oh yeah, that 1 will be that one'll be one twenty five or or we'll see whenever we schedule it yeah insider baseball we got stood up I think it's the first time ever. It was it. It was it was very ah um.

01:00.68
Patrick
Yeah, okay.

01:12.44
digitalghost
But it was very important. The person had a medical emergency with 1 of their kids. So so definitely like noah no no shame there. but but yeah so so we're gonna reschedule that for some time in the new year

01:27.20
Patrick
Cool. Okay I got the show notes going I'm I'm gonna do my recording as well testing testing. Okay, my backup recording is going.

01:41.34
digitalghost
All right? Um, yeah, do you want to intro or do you want me to to intro.

01:49.65
Patrick
Um, we want to just cover 2021 all the craziness that it is and then ah as an intro and then we can get into all. There's a bunch of good questions here.

02:00.74
digitalghost
Yeah, let's do it. Okay so I'll do the I feel like I don't do it get a chance to do it enough I'll do the programming thread on 25 and on the third try you can jump it here here. Intro can accuracy has never been my strong suit. Okay, you ready.

02:04.22
Patrick
Um, oh sure.

02:15.99
Patrick
Okay, yep.

02:20.69
digitalghost
All right? So it's 2021 episode one Twenty four Twenty Twenty one holiday episode okay programming throwdown episode 1 24 Twenty Twenty one holiday episode take it away patrick.

02:22.30
Patrick
Holiday f.

02:34.75
Patrick
Welcome everyone to this evening of sitting by the fireplace on the bear skin rug laid out in front and ah sipping on whatever beverage you want to use your imagination about and thinking about all the wonderful await this is Twenty Twenty one never mind ah no I'm just kidding as we got a Holiday show it's I guess it's a tradition as much as we've been doing this way too many years. It's become ah ingrained. We have some good questions from users in the discord and so we'll be. We'll be doing those. Some people are here listening live so shout out to all the people live listening to this later hearing that they were listening live and in general yeah, just going to have a little bit of a casual episode where we talk about what's been amazing this year that'll be short.

03:27.50
digitalghost
Um, it's been a tough year man but there's been a lot of good too.

03:29.32
Patrick
And yeah yeah I actually like I feel bad I mean it's been a really hard year for a lot of people I think we said that last year too which it was last year too ah this year was supposed to be better I went to the party store to pick up some supplies for like Christmas which first of all like.

03:41.00
digitalghost
Yep yep.

03:49.26
Patrick
Everything without a stock that was horrible. Um.

03:49.63
digitalghost
Um, I noticed that too. Yeah, so so is that related to the you think to the supply chain issue or I don't know what's going on there.

03:56.35
Patrick
Ah, yeah I assume everything gets blamed on covid and supply chain I'm sure that is true a lot but I'm not sure like to what degree. It's true. Um, but I saw all the new Year's stuff was like you know screw twenty twenty one twenty twenty 2 are bust you know all this stuff and I'm just thinking is like.

04:04.56
digitalghost
Yeah I agree.

04:16.25
Patrick
Ah, feel like we've been on this roller coaster before.

04:19.99
digitalghost
Yeah, yeah, so so yeah I yeah, totally agree I think ah I feel like 2021 was better than 2020 I mean obviously like like personally you know anything could happen but I feel like for the for for globally I feel like 2021 was better, but but I'm not I'm not totally sure I haven't thought about it enough. Um, we also have gifs. We're going to be giving out t-shirts to lucky patrons I actually took the excel spreadsheet did did the primitive thing of you know, calling rand on all the rows and then sorting and and we have a list here of folks. You every now and then I'll salt and pepper some ah some winners names on the ah on the Discord raffle. So thank you allll for supporting this show. Um, you know pretty much all the money goes back into the show either cover server costs. We try to get more folks into the show. You know by advertising and and you know, especially try and look for folks who are you know, just starting their career or at high school or college and and try and get them interested and I ah um I I actually yeah I started a new job which which we could talk about at some point later. But. Kind of cool a couple of people reached out to me and said hey you know I used to listen to your show. Um, yeah I don't anymore because I'm old. no ki you know no I think know they said these are like I got into programming from listening to your show and you know and now I I work at you know your company and everything so was really cool. Um, and so we try and ah you know reach as many folks as possible and and you know patrons are a big part of that. So I really appreciate that.

06:04.16
Patrick
Patreon has grown really big like not just ours and thankful to all those people but like I notice it's really like garnered its place in like the internet I think kickstarter was kind of like that thing for a while I don't know I'm not a hip. But I feel like kickstarter might have jumped the Shark a bit and um, like but patreon like wow like the number of people I see now like doing ah patreon subscriptions has like really exploded I think even patreon went or is going to go public. And so I mean they've really become a big thing like I think that's kind of an interesting I was oh I was talking with someone about ah you know youtubers right? because that's always the thing now like oh this youtuber that youtuber like oh I got you know how much money they're making all that stuff and ah you know Jason and I are youtubers.

06:48.60
digitalghost
Yep.

06:53.76
Patrick
But being that we have a podcast I mean I guess we have a bit of knowledge about how that works and it's like I know why all those people have patreons on the side and why they push their ah merch so hard is because yeah I mean the the money to be made from actual viewers is pretty bad.

07:11.10
digitalghost
Yup, yeah exactly yet I you know I don't really like I so a bit more inside baseball since it is the Holiday episode. You know we vet our advertisers very very carefully. Um, you know you'll never see us you know saying oh you know. Buy gold or here's health insurance or it's always things that we best. Yeah, what was that what was the 1 that everyone was doing um the dollar shave club. Yeah we're not doing dollar shave club. Um, you know it's all it's all things that we believe in and but you know because of that.

07:28.50
Patrick
The best underwear for programmers. Ah.

07:45.38
digitalghost
You know these are folks that that you know I think I think they don't have massive massive multibillion dollar advertising budgets and so um, um, you know and so advertising is is is great and we really appreciate. Yeah that the sponsors of the show but but really Patreon is what kind of is is what we used to really get. You know the word out there and so you know and I think that's really important. It keeps the show. You know, authentic. Um, and so yeah I think you'll see more and more of that. Um of of you know people moving to that model.

08:15.99
Patrick
So let's see if we can do this is a bit impromptu. But maybe we can start off here. What is something this year from a programming perspective that you think you've changed your mind on learned adopted. That you you kind of picked up something for like not not just like speculative. Maybe we'll do that later but like what is something that that you this year feel like you took on programming wise oh sorry should have given it to in advance.

08:43.49
digitalghost
Yeah that's a really good question. no no I think it's fine. Um, this year um it's been a few years since I really got into visual studio code I mean that might have been a twenty nineteen thing but in 2021 um, 1 thing I well so a couple of things. 1 thing is um I started getting better about about taking notes. So I know it's not totally a programming related thing. But um.

09:10.57
Patrick
Um, oh okay.

09:15.57
digitalghost
You know, started doing a lot more kind of Google Docs and having a Google drive is kind of organized and and keeping a lot of notes on different things. Um, that's been really helpful. Anything I can kind of put down on epaper is 1 less thing I have to just keep an active memory in my in my brain and so I can kind of put it there and. Then I only have to remember to check it and so if I put enough things there. It works out. Um from a programming standpoint. Um, ah 1 thing I really got into more is um, using using Tmux. Um, So yeah, I've used tmux for a while but now it's just become the sort of de facto thing like right when I log into a machine I'll jump into tmux because otherwise like you might get going and then and then you lose internet or your machine goes to sleep because you you know.

10:04.10
Patrick
And.

10:08.43
digitalghost
Especially with working from home like you might be into something and then um, you know and then the doorbell rings and so and then you end up doing something in the backyard and then it only takes maybe at least on my laptop like ten fifteen minutes for the laptop to go to sleep and your ssage connection is busted so I've started. Um. Um, I've started using eternal terminal and tmux for for almost everything and even like my visual studio code and my jupiter notebook and all of that I have all of those going through eternal terminal tunnels. So so none of those connections are ever broken. And so that's that's kind of a workflow change I've started doing this year

10:49.80
Patrick
Interesting I'll give I'll give 2 for myself. So my first 1 I need to be better about what you're describing I yes I do a bit more on local machines so not kind of ss hing around as much so I guess I get a by with ah.

11:04.71
digitalghost
Um, yep.

11:07.97
Patrick
Not not investing in a good solution there. But I think for for me so from like a programming perspective I think I took on a bit more ah sort of like math and statistics kind of stuff which I work with a lot of people who are very deep in Statistics or even I think you're a bit into statistics more than me.

11:25.81
digitalghost
Um.

11:27.81
Patrick
Um, but like trying to sort of not shy away from you know, looking at lots of data and trying to come up with ways of understanding that data without just literally looking at all of it. Um, so that's been 1 thing that I've tackled and I still been doing most of that in c plus plus for my for my day job. But I think.

11:42.99
digitalghost
Um, well really like stat stuff. What do you use that igen or something.

11:47.20
Patrick
Yeah, ah I mean most I guess I doing it at such a simple level. It's just mostly like using building it up from like small level calls of you know the base based stuff like nothing fancy.

12:01.73
digitalghost
Um, oh is this kind of like a mapreduce type thing.

12:06.47
Patrick
No, just like even like before like someone gives you like you were saying oh I have an excel chart of you know names right? and then like oh I generated a random number so you know a question would be like oh how do you know without looking through all of those that you got all the numbers covered or.

12:12.23
digitalghost
Um, with you.

12:24.61
Patrick
Like that The numbers are evenly distributed or whatever right? or even what is what? Ah what are various distributions and so those kinds of things and trying to take measures of data. Not like big data crunching or statistics on on that just like literally like for me that was not something that I had previously kind of tried to tackle head on is.

12:34.47
digitalghost
Got it.

12:40.16
digitalghost
Got it.

12:42.44
Patrick
You know I generally got other people to take on the math or analytics of something low bar low bar. Um, and then the the second thing is for the first time that I can remember I am trying to remember I ever did it in person I don't think I rarely did it formally as such.

12:45.78
digitalghost
That makes sense that makes sense.

13:01.24
digitalghost
Um, what's really I've always heard this and I've always been skeptical So I'd love to hear your take.

13:01.24
Patrick
But I did pair programming and okay so yeah, so you've not done it either I was but like the only 1 so we we had some me and a coworker or coworker and I sorry um ah had a had a problem to work and. Um, there's some image processing related stuff which I had done before actually you and I did that that was the first time you and I doing it was the first time I had really tackled it. Um, and so I was like oh you know I has an experience here like and and this was virtual. So um, we use a sea lion which is like inteligjae by jetbrains.

13:25.44
digitalghost
Um, yep.

13:39.39
Patrick
And they had like rolled out a new feature where you could like do pair programming like ah you know live Google Doc but like your code and I think other people have similar tools as well. I think even vs code has an option for doing this and so um, we're like oh let's hop on a session. We'll get on like a call with each other and then you know we'll just like.

13:48.52
digitalghost
M.

13:57.20
Patrick
You know hash this out together and like literally like I'll type in 1 function, you're typing in the function below me and like we're doing before it like never made sense to me because like you have only 1 keyboard and I guess I probably was thinking about it wrong but like it never made sense that like 2 of us would sit there and like work together but only 1 person could type. But in this way he could you know scroll up and check what I was writing I could scroll down and what he was writing we would like tweak a function together and we didn't like go all in on it but it was like this remembering for me oddly is like this is the first time I ever remember doing like peer programming like actually sitting here. Working on literally the same piece of code at the same time.

14:36.66
digitalghost
That sounds Awesome. So Yeah when I heard pair programming and maybe I misunderstood it or maybe you've done something slightly different and more advanced but I always interpret it as you know 1 person's typing the other person's looking over their shoulder and then they switch. And that never quite made sense to me what you're saying sounds awesome or basically it's you're both, you know at your own desks coding but you're coding on the same project at the same time right? right? That is super cool. Yeah I.

15:03.19
Patrick
Um, yeah, like in the same file like in the same source file. Yeah.

15:12.57
digitalghost
Um, how does that work I mean it must use like nfs or something I mean how do you? Both edit the same file at the same time.

15:14.56
Patrick
Um, you know I I don't know I don't know but then I was thinking like I wonder how many people I get so it's like that test-d driven development agile programming pair programming like I could name off a whole bunch of paradigms statements or whatever that. I know of I've read about been around a long time and I'm not sure I ever did it properly like I've never attempted to do like I kind of some part of it or learn from it but never sat down and actually did it and this was 1 of them so I did it this year yeah I would do it again.

15:44.43
digitalghost
Cool that sounds amazing.

15:47.90
Patrick
I Don't think I do it all the time some people advocate that like it's something you would do often I don't know about that but like I could definitely see certain situations it being really useful.

15:57.10
digitalghost
Yeah, so I um, actually now that you know I've had more time think about it. 1 thing that I've really jumped on recently is is next js you know we interviewed guliermo from nextjs um, it's got to be over a year ago and at that time I knew nothing about next js I mean I almost I knew almost nothing about react js or any of that. Um, but I wanted to build a and actually you can check this out. It's in a very very alpha stage but I wanted to build like a google photos. But where you would bring your own um cloud you know, storage. So so you'd bring your own cloud storage. We would just provide sort of the website and the app but you would be hosting your own photos on your own cloud storage paying your own storage fees and so um. And your your photos are totally safe in the sense of like you know, like no 1 could ban you you can't lose your photos like even if that even if that went out of business or I got hit by a bus or something you'd still have all your photos and so I built um.

17:02.34
Patrick
Um.

17:07.31
digitalghost
It's called aquinas photos after Thomas aquinas and you can go to aquinas photos or maybe it's aquinas photo I don't remember I think it's aquinas photos with an s but anyway, um, and I built the whole thing in next js and it's actually amazing I mean I'm a really big fan. When I first started. It was very frustrating because I had a bunch of bad design patterns with respect to web programming. Um, and so Nextjs is very opinionated and so when you try to do things that in hindsight are not good. Design. Just won't let you like there's just there's just no real way to do it and so you kind of have to follow their their design. Um, but when I was done I kind of looked back and I thought oh wow this is like really nice and and very production worthy and it can scale and it's like really solid. Um, so yeah, I'm a really big fan I mean I think for future web stuff I'm going to stick with nextjs It's been awesome.

18:09.93
Patrick
All right? Well maybe let's jump in and take a a listener question that I still know why I said that with like a high pitch because I was thinking it was more ambiguous than it was ah anyways so the first 1 is by I'm not even know how you say that.

18:20.40
digitalghost
Um.

18:26.99
digitalghost
Ah, Kevin so sorry. Okay, just to glare the person has a username but then they put their real name and so we'll just go with the second 1

18:29.21
Patrick
Because oh yeah, there we go fair enough. Okay, ah. Thank you!? What's been The biggest thing that push you to learn more during your career I should have probably read that before we did our impromptu 1 was it taking a new job and moving somewhere doing stuff in your spare time or something like a new hobby or anything else.

18:52.82
digitalghost
Yeah, this is overall time I Just say this is overall time. So your question is still pretty different. Sure.

18:54.33
Patrick
Um, and then also bonus question something we'll do in a second yep go ahead.

19:03.36
Patrick
That's true I'll take a shot because I actually have a ah answer at hand for this so I will say that for those of you who who haven't heard or listen to all the years so Jason I you like started out meeting each other by working together at a kind of. Old school very large company but not a programmer first company and I would say like the programming I did there was like in my comfort zone like I Never really felt super pushed like I learned stuff but I never like I looked around this sounds. This is gonna sound bad. But like I looked around and like I felt like even coming out of college and I think later probably was correct like I probably knew how to program as well as a lot of people that were there or maybe even better than most right like top top hat sure? That's fair.

19:45.60
digitalghost
Um, well you're you're kind of like a Cs Dynasty right? I mean your dad you know know is ah was was that and your brother. Oh and your grandfather you're like you're like the Kennedy's of programming' give maybe a better example. But.

19:54.45
Patrick
Dad and my grandfather were both programmers. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh gosh. Um, no, let's let's move on to a different topic. So anyways so I showed up and like you know this.

20:03.33
digitalghost
You're like ah you're like the what's another Dynasty isn't there like a basketball dynasty.

20:11.56
Patrick
Like the programming there like I learned a lot like personal growth and like interpersonal communication even to this day I think I've learned a lot from that experience but from a programming standpoint like I like I don't feel like it really pushed me to like really try my hardest. Like I could coast a lot. Um, then actually I guess like the story jason ended up getting a job in Silicon valley. He's like patrick dude I'm going to move like you definitely to interview come interview like I'll help you? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, okay, fair enough.

20:30.18
digitalghost
Are.

20:40.75
digitalghost
I Don't know if you said this but we were working together on the same project. Yeah yeah.

20:48.14
Patrick
And then so you know Jason told me like you to come I'll help you because like you know Jason's much better programmer than me interview at that time like I was not comfortable doing the Silicon valley style interview jason crushes them which is not his comment that's mine. Um, and so they're very intimidating for most people including me.

21:02.46
digitalghost
Ah, okay.

21:07.70
Patrick
So he helped me I don't know if you remember this like when you were packing up to leave I came to your house and you helped coach me through like solving programming problems. Yeah, yeah, yeah I could go more into detail but it would reveal a bit of personal details I'll tell you later? Um, but.

21:13.28
digitalghost
No way really? Ah, it's a that's a fantastic memory I don't remember that.

21:22.23
digitalghost
Um, okay.

21:25.24
Patrick
But yeah, so so we've been there anyway. So I got a job at the same company Jason had gone to probably because he's had a good word for me. Um in silicon valley and when I showed up there I was drowning like it was like I was in over my head. Those people all knew what they were doing. Like I didn't look around and look at anyone then was like I'm better than that person like I was you know that whole imposter syndrome just completely kicked in and you know it. It was hard like looking back if I knew that was going to be that hard I'm not sure I would have done. It.

21:47.44
digitalghost
Yeah, definitely.

21:58.14
Patrick
But moving to silicon valley and and I don't think it has to be Silicon valley especially not now like it was you know 10 years s ago but I think like moving to silicon valley getting in that culture and being like at the bottom of the stack like bottom of the the latter. Let's say. And like really having to go all in on like distributed computing and mapreduces and you know.

22:19.96
digitalghost
Well, that's that's I think you just hit the nail in the head there because you know the reason why you I think you know we found it So challenging was that you you're back. You were changing disciplines versus a lot of those people you know they got their degree in distributed computing.

22:31.00
Patrick
Yes. Um, yeah I think it was a bit of all of it right? like I think someone took good chance on me without a background but I think the caliber of people no matter what they were doing were like I hadn't been pushing myself I was out of shape right? and then I joined I joined the athletic club and like these people.

22:48.89
digitalghost
Um, ah.

22:55.70
Patrick
Like sure. Maybe they were tennis stars and I never played tennis before but even if they had played basketball. They would have been better than me. Um, and so like that really pushed me to like learn all sorts of technology and eventually you know I got my lung capacity up and my cardio wasn't so bad and I was able to keep up and like.

22:59.62
digitalghost
Got it.

23:14.38
Patrick
You know, but that really pushed me I would say so really going in on like taking a job that I knew would be really challenging rather than just finding a job where I thought I could be the best.

23:24.55
digitalghost
That is yeah, that's fantastic I mean it's a great story and also really good advice I think yeah, just I just I'll I'll answer the question but before I do that I want to double down on that you should always interview for the job you want you know I was talking to somebody today who they were waiting to get promoted. That they could interview for another job and I said well why don't you just interview for that job. You know, like like like at whatever level you want to be you know with your promotion or you know so we're going with this and and just you know if they don't give it to you then? that's fine violise you you should try like interview for the job you want now. And um, yeah, and it's it's sounds like yeah you you kind of did that and then you were able to get in and push yourself.

24:12.90
digitalghost
And so now you you totally dominate.

24:14.87
Patrick
Ah, no, no. But I mean look I've seen like I think my growth has been a lot bigger than it would have been if ah, you know I had just dated that spot. Jason and I were originally so what about you.

24:27.74
digitalghost
Yeah, that makes sense. Um, well actually real quick I Just want to double click on something you said that if you had to do it over again, you wouldn't and why is it because it was so difficult that it kind of put a strain on you or or what.

24:33.93
Patrick
Okay, yeah, sorry.

24:41.57
Patrick
no no no no I'm not saying I wouldn't do it I'm saying like I think if I would have known how like just how much like under over my head I would be like I guess like. That's I guess that's not a fair sound I like to think I would do it again. I mean I feel in hindsight it was a great choice. Um, but I think I didn't realize just how little I knew we make this joke about at work. We do it about c plus plus is like you go through that that curve where like. You don't know c plus plus like this language is weird then like you get to the level where you first wrote like inheritance and maybe a template and you're like I am a freakin c plus plus expert people say this is hard and it's like I interview these people I ask them. You know, kind of I don't actually care what they answer I just care like ah that's a discussion point but like.

25:21.67
digitalghost
Um, yeah.

25:33.24
Patrick
How would you rate your c plus plus skills on like a ah scale of 1 to five anyone who says 4 or five I instantly know it's like oh yeah, you're really early on the curve. Um, because it's just like 1 of those things like they don't know how much they don't know like yeah and so I think it was that I didn't realize how much bigger.

25:40.85
digitalghost
Yeah.

25:47.55
digitalghost
Yep yep.

25:52.66
Patrick
The world of cs and we were going from a company where it was not programmers first to silicon valley company where programmers were like the superstars of the company and so your expected output and the level of talent and and also accordingly the rewards were much much higher.

26:10.68
digitalghost
Yep yep, that makes sense. Yeah I mean I think I think it would have been overwhelming if you had realized what you were in for beforehand.

26:16.43
Patrick
If I had gone in like yet spent like a week there with like a trial job or whatever or trial interview people always joke about that I probably had to come out then like oh there's no way I'm going to cut it but because I was committed because I moved because I already accepted the job like. There was no way out.

26:35.64
digitalghost
Yeah, that makes sense. Um, yeah, that was really inspiring man. Um, yeah, biggest thing that pushed me to learn more. Um, you know I have a I mean.

26:41.47
Patrick
Um, ah.

26:51.50
digitalghost
I guess I'll yeah what patrick said really resonates with me too. I mean when I um, um, yeah when I moved to the valley and I moved to like this research lab. You know where where I met a whole bunch of people who knew a whole bunch of other disciplines that I barely heard of. Definitely pushed me to really dive deep and and do a lot of learning I took you know a bunch of these online courses or I watched videos from universities all over the world. There was this university in Israel that had some good courses online for free. There was um. Was the mit courses. There was also a university I can't remember which 1 that had an amazing stats class that you could just listen. You know, watch all the courses and and they had really good production value. Um, but I think you know Beyond. Ah. Just you know taking a really challenging job and and I would say the biggest thing that pushed me to learn more was um, was yeah, just just I guess taking just really, ah, kind of big bets. Um. Yeah I think that um you know there is like for example, reinforcement learning was this technology that people weren't really using in industry and and so I just decided to take that on as a project and figure out. Okay, why does this not work in the real world. It only works on games. And and kind of committed to that and and and and so forth sort of put us in a position I think maybe the story around both both from both of us here is the same which is to put yourself in in positions where you're really pushing yourself and the risks are real and and so you have to. Put yourself in these really tough environments. Um, and you know you don't always succeed but but you have to kind of put yourself in those environments like I've bombed interviews before I've failed projects before I've gotten bad ratings before um. You know that's because you know I'm taking risks and they're not always going to succeed. It's not It's not a risk if if you always win right? So so yeah, take those big risks and then when you're in that situation really push yourself and don't give up and you know at some point like you know you might fail. But. But but until then you know push yourself really hard. Um I think that's ah um, you know I think that's some good advice that will help folks out, especially when they're getting started. You know there are things that now you know are just kind of you know I don't even really think about um but at the time.

29:31.82
digitalghost
You know I didn't even like understand so I guess there are things that were kind of almost like black magic like I have no idea how they worked and then it got to a point where I could kind of use them I still didn't really know how they worked but I could use them and enough to get By. And then you understand them and then they just become just part of your routine to where you don't even realize you're doing it and and you're kind of building this scaffold upon scaffold upon scaffold and so so yeah, pushing yourself will really help accelerate that process because it's going to take. To take your whole life. You know to to continue on that. So.

30:10.10
Patrick
Yeah, this thing you said I think I didn't know early on and like now like you said I think I I realize it and I'm tried to ingrain it but this like you have to set yourself up to be uncomfortable and potentially fail like if you're if you're not close enough. The edge to fail then you're probably not growing.

30:31.99
digitalghost
Yup yeahp that's right? Yeah I mean I'll give you guys a really concrete example. Um've I you know I bought I owned a house a long time ago, but it a very small house and my parents were really close and so they actually helped me a lot with you know house related things and. Was in college and working full-time. So I don't really have a lot of time. So I don't really count that as being a true homeowner that was that was cheating and but I bought you know a house. Um, you know about 2 years ago and since then I've done a ton of stuff myself. Um, you know I built a ton of stuff I've built walls. Um, you know I've built a fence. Um, you know I did a ton of I built a path I laid down granite I did all sorts of stuff all just from trying to look things up on the internet and there were some things that I messed up like give you an example. Um I took apart the pool. Ah. Um, valve and I couldn't put it back together and um I actually put it back together but it leaked and I couldn't get it to stop leaking so we had to call a pool professional to come and they fixed it for real and it cost and actually you know if I hadn't done that it would have been like a five dollars fix but because I did that it cost.

31:44.70
Patrick
Oh.

31:44.47
digitalghost
800 dollars to fix and you know that sucked right? but that was a risk I was willing to take because you know I'm trying to push myself and learn as much as I can about home ownership and so I've done a whole bunch of other things inside outside the house like Replace toilets. Replaced outlets um did a whole bunch of replaced a bunch of the sprinklers and rerouted sprinklers and like I learned a lot more and ultimately saved a lot more than you know the eight hundred dollars I had to eat on that on that pool valve and so that's really what it's about is.

32:11.93
Patrick
Yeah, that's right.

32:21.71
digitalghost
You know when you take a long-term view a lot of these risks make sense I mean there's there's folks on um, you know my team who say what if I do this project and it doesn't work. Well I still get a good rating and and the answers will you probably will get. You know an okay rating if it doesn't work. But you know taking these risks over a long enough period of time will eventually work Out. You know if you're working hard I mean that sense is a little bit similar to the advice you get with the stock market or something like that. But um, yeah, Okay I Maybe I thought segra's too much surface area.

32:52.71
Patrick
Oh that's all separate topic. Okay.

32:59.68
digitalghost
But yeah, you know take those risks place yourself hard. You know and and you know a single risk could easily pass or fail and don't let that discourage you if it doesn't work out.

33:09.90
Patrick
Yeah I mean yeah, it's an iterative ah an iterative thing. Not a single 1 shot measurement. Yeah.

33:16.69
digitalghost
Yeah I know real quick. We'll do the second part and then we'll jump on to next question. Favorite city to live in or visit I love venice. Um, you know my my my dad is ah from there originally and I love going back there I mean it's it's a lot of fun in san antonio which is close to where I live now.

33:20.14
Patrick
Like your part clari.

33:36.58
digitalghost
Is actually similar where they have a River walk and they have ah it's not quite a gondola ride but it's it's you know there's There's a lot of water around it. So I think that kind of aesthetic is really beautiful.

33:44.39
Patrick
Okay, well mine sucks compared to that. But um, so like living. Yeah, we'll try to do each of these faster because we are. We're a bit introspective here at the end of the year but um I mean as far as living I've only ever lived in Florida and the Bay area. So I don't. I've not moved around that much I don't know that I can say too much about places to to the but as far as visiting. Um, interestingly for whatever reason like visiting new york city is just like fascinating to me because it's so different than I think like what I normally do and you can go and you don't have to drive which now I don't drive them much. Anyways. You just like take the subway everywhere walk and I guess specifically like Manhattan and there's just like culture with the museums and broadway shows and then there's shopping. There's like things to do outside. So like we go and we walk so much like we get tons more like. Steps on our phone recorded as like how far we we traveled so actually for like at least for me and my family like visiting like Manhattan is great every time we go I was like maybe maybe we like move here. But I think moving and visiting are are 2 very different ah ways of experiencing a city.

34:56.12
digitalghost
Yeah, yeah, totally yeah I think ah it's very hard to know what living there would be like um, but yeah, it is super fun I've been there a couple of times out of blast out wait real quick before before that question. Ah so james b.

35:05.91
Patrick
All right next. Biggest tech prediction. Oh oh oh gimblet. Oh.

35:15.40
digitalghost
Um, james b has been a patron for I don't know how many months but he's ah he's pledged a total of 1 hundred dollars on the dot. So thank you so much james v for all of your months of of contribution there and you are our first winner so we will send you a t-shirt.

35:22.65
Patrick
Ah, so.

35:35.16
digitalghost
And you actually we you don't have your address on Patreon Patreon. So um, I'm going to try and track you down from your email If you're listening to this and you want to be proactive shoot me an email with your address. But yeah, okay.

35:42.34
Patrick
Oh that sounds scary or any James bees that bit match that query pattern. That's true.

35:54.52
digitalghost
Well yeah, actually that's true. There's there's probably other James V's so yeah, maybe maybe just wait for me to email you but but James B I'm an email you and we'll get your address and get a t-shirt over to you Thanks for sponsoring the show.

36:05.67
Patrick
All right speaking of James Clever Clover Aka James is wanting to know our next biggest tech prediction.

36:14.48
digitalghost
Ah, next biggest? Okay I'll say this my next biggest tech prediction is I think this decentralized web thing is actually going to take off I mean there's been like there's been all these things. Yeah, there's been like peer net.

36:25.11
Patrick
Oh interesting. That's bold. Yeah and f t's baby. Let's go. Ah he we? Yeah, it's 2021 we didn't talk about nfts yet.

36:32.34
digitalghost
Oh my god we should talk about nfts we should actually do a whole show on nfts yeah, you know it's not because I've been consuming a lot of content on nfts but part of it was I was looking for a good interviewer and part of it was um, you know I just don't really know where it's going to go. But. But but yeah I think that this sort of decentralized like you have a box in your house that has your personal data like your vault. Yeah, and so you're all kind of you're kind of bringing bringing your own data your own infrastructure as kind of this kind of dig web 3 point Zero.

36:56.92
Patrick
Ah, you mean something different I say yes. Okay, yeah, so.

37:09.44
digitalghost
Yeah I really think that that is going to take off um, nfts you know could be like ah icos which it's a big fad and and and people lose a lot of money I'm not totally committed to n fts. But I think web 3 point zero as a concept is is going to take off.

37:26.81
Patrick
Interesting. My I mean this is I think I am always saying that. But I believe it's true I think spacex I mean I think spacex if they can pull off getting starship into orbit this year which is their goal and and. We can discuss elon musk as a person at some other time but like if they can pull off that goal which you know there's a lot of people there besides him, but you know I I think people just are underestimating how transformative getting that much like right now you care about literally every ounce. That goes to space but you'll move to caring about like vaguely how much something weighs and the frequency which was so I think it'll just change so much right? and we're starting to kind of people are starting to realize this with starlink I was having a conversation someone the other day. If starlink which is satellite based internet like gets to where it needs to be I mean you'll no longer be able to have censorship in countries that's effective because people can just get their internet beamed in from space like you won't be able to stop that like you can today. That's. Gonna itself have huge implications to ah like the political landscape in addition to just like being able to get internet everywhere which would be amazing but like being able to you know, have that same access that we have literally from all oppressed governments in the world.

38:57.78
digitalghost
Wow.

38:57.98
Patrick
That's going to be a big deal and I think that's only like the beginning right? like I think being able to we talked about a long long time ago. Big alow space and like the inflatable space stations but now like that's that's like small stake stuff considering the payload that. Starship could put into orbit right? yeah.

39:15.39
digitalghost
Yeah, and actually I think our our predictions kind of dovetail really nicely because because I feel like you have some traditionally you've had a lot of monopolies. Um, and and you're seeing. So for example, like like ah crypto kind of breaks. Lot of financial monopolies um cryptocurrency and so yeah, web 3 point zero is all about kind of breaking some of those monopolies reducing the barrier to entry by kind of making things distributed so you don't need you know a youtube sized budget to compete with Youtube. Um, and so but then you but then you get to the hardware issue and so this this is a way to sort of democratize that so kind of you combine these 2 it's like now internet is ubiquitous and um and um, you know? yeah and you can access the internet from everywhere. No 1 can really shut it down unless they have space lasers. And um, and then you build the you know the the software infrastructure on top of that it could be really powerful.

40:16.79
Patrick
All right? Ah, it's paul asks if we could standardize all the code there is out there to 1 particular language which language would it be and why would it be python.

40:30.20
digitalghost
Ah, oh my gosh. So It's Paul officially is going to cause our programming throwdown at Gmail Dot Com inbox to blow up. So Thanks for that. Paul Um, um, but um, yeah I think um. Man if you could okay so that's a good question Patrick So if you personally Patrick could only pick 1 Language. What languages you pick and why.

40:54.20
Patrick
Oh I mean this is a huge question right? Like if I was stuck on a desert island and I could only bring 1 programming language with me what would it be I probably like you know I don't know I don't know it's just tough like. From a comfort standpoint I mean I'm most comfortable in c plus plus python sucks. Um, and I but I mean I kind of want to say javascript like I feel if I was like all that like if we giant shuffled the world into whatever. Javascript I could get my current job done but also get web stuff done. So I kind of want to say that this is a tough question I don't know like if I if like the world turned upside down and like what is the programming language most likely to like.

41:31.89
digitalghost
Oh man, that's a really good point I never thought about that.

41:47.30
Patrick
Help me build inertia back up I'm going with sixty Eight K assembly

41:53.10
digitalghost
Ah, yeah know I'm going to go with I'm going to stick with Python I was originally thinking python and then you know me reddit who we had on the show a while back from anvil has has their whole anvil framework where you can um, write python and then they transpile it to the web.

41:58.71
Patrick
Nah and.

42:09.55
Patrick
Ah.

42:11.33
digitalghost
And so I guess if I had to pick 1 I would go at python like like I think all the stats stuff just you know all of the the um batteries that are included there. Okay, what about if you could only well actually you already picked an old language right? you picked some old assembly.

42:24.58
Patrick
Yeah I was just talking about that. But now I mean actually python is good I mean python and Javascript would be a pretty good tossup for like chance of being able to communicate with other people and like inertia and Breadth the barrier to entry for a lot of other languages is is just high when it comes to the general populace.

42:29.15
digitalghost
It.

42:44.90
Patrick
And I think people get elitist like I mean I don't Program c plus plus kidss that's an elitist thing but I mean I think there are people who would say something like assembly or haskell or whatever not because they truly believed it. But in part to be elitist. Um and then not everyone. Some people would generally die before giving up lisp in their parentheses. But you know.

42:44.56
digitalghost
Yap.

43:03.96
Patrick
We're definitely getting flamed up.

43:05.80
digitalghost
I've always have I've always enjoyed writing code in c plus plus I think there's something really satisfying about it and yeah I do like the fact that you know, yeah well now with Python it's effectively, you're getting that same feeling because the the type system depending on how you have that set up. Um, but now with python you know and especially in a corporate environment. You know you write the python I guess the difference is you can run the python when the types are all messed up but you can't actually submit a pull request. It won't let you in c plus plus like you get you can't even get that far.

43:34.31
Patrick
And as far as like got a legit language I kind of mentioned it. But I you know I don't program in list but lisp has been the 1 that I think has.

43:41.50
digitalghost
Um, but.

43:52.39
Patrick
Sort of stuck around the longest like it's old but it continues to be a place where they continue to have enthusiasm and support so other examples its well gave were like passal fortra Cobol I mean those are used but mostly in sort of ah, not active development but more sort of like maintenance aspects or very niche things. Whereas I think Lisp still has like and their derivatives thereof so there must be reasoning to that. So Even though I'm not a huge list proponent currently like I'll stick up for it from that aspect.

44:18.13
digitalghost
Yup, yep.

44:25.56
digitalghost
Yep yep, totally agree Meis was I'm a big fan of this I haven't written in him forever. But I always have a good time. Um, so colin g colin g he he's been a looks like he's been a patron for a little over a year um so thanks colin and colin also doesn't have his address I'm going to have to track him down but um, but colin g you you want to? That's right, you want a t-shirt I just need you to send me your address and your credit card so you can pay for it and your social now.

44:46.64
Patrick
But Jason's going to repel into your house.

44:59.84
Patrick
Um, have.

45:01.65
digitalghost
So College you wanted t-shirt I'll track you down col G and get you your t-shirt. So Thanks again for supporting the show. Um, so um, ne necrous necrous Necrois says Asks. Um. If you could redo your career and education Path. What would you change? Um, That's an interesting question. Um, Well Patrick You got your masters Online. What was your feeling would you change that or were you happy with that.

45:32.96
Patrick
So I mean I guess like this is going to be the broken record patrick tonight. But I mean for me like you know I didn't you know, look this is controversial so you know I'll say what works for me which is I went to a state university I know Jason you did too. But.

45:52.14
digitalghost
Yep.

45:52.36
Patrick
But I went to a state university um, that left me in in Florida that and state university system in Florida was was I think a very good value at least when I went I don't I haven't kept track of what it is anymore. But when I went that was a really good value and I even got scholarships and stuff so cost even less. But even at like in-state full price that was a good value I came out with a very good financial situation. Got a good job out of it that that worked really well for me I don't think I would change my education path there and the career I get in. No I mean I'm super happy that like we discussed the whole silicon valley thing. I think that's worked out well now there's a lot of timing luck serendipity whatever you want to call it. Um, you know if you're a subscriber to Malcolm gladwell kind of things you can go sort of read his take on that but like you know I'm not saying other people could could repeat what I did but you know I think. I've been happy I will be careful to say how much of it is repeatable versus happenstance. Um, but yeah I did my master's degree while working and the broken record part of this is like if I knew how much work it was going to be when I started doing it I'm not sure I would like people ask me today like. That I work with should I do my master's degree like you did your master's degree while you were working should I and I have a hard time answering them I'm thankful I did it I feel like it's 1 of those if you ever don't get a job. You never know if it would have helped or not but I don't think it. Like made me that much of a better programmer to be honest. So I'm glad I have it I wouldn't do it now and I'm kind of proud that it's like on my resume and I'm glad that I was getting real-world experience rather than delaying getting that experience in order to do it and so for me that worked really well and I'm thankful I have it. But I'm not a hundred percent. Sure it's worth it today in at least the field I'm in.

47:51.53
digitalghost
Yeah, that makes sense um yeah I mean I think I think that makes a lot of sense I I think it depends on your sort of values. Um, yeah I think that yeah I would agree that getting a master a master's or a higher level degree. Um. You probably don't get that money Back. You know I'd have to see data on this. But if I saw data saying that financially you know you barely break. Even if at all that wouldn't surprise me um, but um, but I always really wanted to do like. Really high level math. Um, that's just something I wanted to do and and I felt like um, you know, even if it paid the same and so I was starting my career later and you know there was there's that compounding effect you know at the end of the day. It's like I just that's the kind of job I want to do and so um um you know I just I just felt like I needed to have more sort of you know, kind of like training and and I wanted to learn you know more about about how to do that and a lot of the advanced math classes are hard to take and and and all of that and so that was my master's and then for ph d. I got into the ph d because I wanted to have neural networks play go and it was at the time a really really hard problem and it took years and I made like just a fraction of the progress but I made something and and so that um you know. At some point like I think after you write like 3 journal papers then you can kind of graduate and so by like the second journal paper I was pretty done I mean I was kind of ready to you know to to go get a job or be a professor I didn't know what but I wanted to finish my ph d um, so so. Um, so so yeah I mean I think that's that was really the reasoning there and so you know I wouldn't yeah I wouldn't really change anything. Um.

49:50.33
Patrick
I think you have a good point there to interject a bit like you said to get to the the kind of things you wanted to do and I think that is a good point. There are certain parts of certain fields that have different expectations like it's been my experience listening to you and and other people. For instance, like to really hit the ground running in machine learning. For instance I think like there is more door. There are more doors open to you if you have a ph d at least today than than not versus like for me and the kind of work that I'm doing you know, maybe like a more embedded slant or whatever.

50:22.31
digitalghost
Yep.

50:29.55
Patrick
It's just not a thing like a master's degree a Ph D years of experience like they're kind of all interchangeable. You're not going to get like more benefited out or more access by having higher level degrees.

50:42.55
digitalghost
Yep I also worked all through ah through grad school actually through undergrad as well, but not full time through undergrad. But um, yeah I mean I think working while you're in grad school is is a great idea. Um, it helps you kind of stay focused and. Um, you know if it takes an extra year I think that's that's that's fine. Um, you know I don't know if it if you know finishing a year earlier would have really changed anything. Um, so yeah I think I think working for me was actually really important help kind of keep me grounded and I learned a lot of software discipline and things like that um that I don't think I would have learned if I just if I just tried to go straight through without without having a job.

51:24.60
Patrick
In Q in Cs Oh do you want to another giveaway or we want to go the next question. Ah, yeah, yeah here we are oh of.

51:27.95
digitalghost
Ah, let's do it all right? So so Matt I almost said Matt's last name and and we'd had to clip that out Matt matt I Matt letter I um you are a t-shirt winner and we have your address.

51:44.27
Patrick
Um, who that people could have moved. Oh nice.

51:45.81
digitalghost
Amazing I'll probably still email you just to confirm but Matt I is in great britain and he's been a patron for looks like about a year and a half um and so thank you so much Matt for your support and we will get a t-shirt over to you.

52:03.68
Patrick
Nice all right M Q in C's question is what is the dirtiest hackiest Anti-patter Niest S P piece of code you ever wrote in full conscious and even maybe enjoying the thrill and why was it the way to go.

52:22.43
digitalghost
Um, well we both wrote some really ugly code. We worked together I remember actually I'll tell you a really quick story I remember um we we built this prototype.

52:26.95
Patrick
Oh no, no no.

52:38.66
digitalghost
So we were working in a research lab and so we were trying to produce little prototypes. They weren't production were these systems by any stretch and we had this prototype and this and at the time I mean I was still in grad school. We were both still in grad school and so we didn't have a lot of experience. Um, and and I was creating a process. I think it was like every second. So basically there was ah a batch of work that needed to get done and for every batch instead of having like a pool of processes and using like the multiprocessing library in python and just feeding it all to the pool I was creating a process for every item in the batch. I had like a semahore so it wasn't you know if there were 10000 batches. It wasn't creating 10000 processes all at once you know, but it was creating. Let's say five processes and when the first 1 finished it was creating a sixth process and so and so basically we could only do something like ten thousand batches before the machine died.

53:34.84
Patrick
So.

53:36.65
digitalghost
Because it was just creating processes and it wasn't cleaning them up. Um, so that that happened um I would say that that um so my my the thing that kind of comes to my mind here is that you know when you don't really know what. The final product is going to look like that is when um I build really hacky things. Um, and so that's when I feel like it's it's the way to go because you know the the design is changing a lot. The structure is changing a lot. And so I'll write something really ugly it might be like 1 massive you know iython notebook or something um and then in hindsight you know I'll look at it and it'll be terrible and they'll need to be rewritten. But I still feel like that made the most sense. Um, you know 1 thing that actually I talked to um, the creator of ipython notebook. Um, I'm terrible at names. But he works for Amazon now for aws and he's actually a physics professor a physics professor created ipython notebook um and he said something really interesting. He said you know when I and this is I'm using his language here. Um. Um, he said when I you know, open visual studio the verb that I would call for what I'm doing in visual studio is build. You know I'm building a library I'm building a website. He's like but when I open eye python the verb I like to use is tinker. It's like I'm tinkering with something or maybe even better is like think. You know I'm thinking about something and so I think there's times when you're trying to understand something or trying to think about something and that's real right? You know some super ugly code. Um and and it'll help you be really agile. But then when you're done thinking and it's time to build something. Then that's that's a struggle because then you have to convince everyone to rewrite it.

55:29.61
Patrick
Interesting. Um I mean look I come from a background of like C and C plus plus I won't tell the number of times where I needed to do string formatting and look I ain't got no batteries included string formatting Library. So. A number of s printfs and you know some slapdashy iterative pointer with modification like code comes out because I know how to do it and I know it'll be right? and everyone else looks at it and is like what is like no just just go with it. It's Fine. What are you doing here a strippping spaces like just just don't even just like keep going and the same thing happens every so often anything that slightly resembles like image processing where like you end up with like 2 like 2 loops like an outer loop over rows and an inter loop over columns. End up busting out some amount of pointer math and doing something that people just groan and are just like what are you doing Patrick they're like no no, it's fine and then every time which comes up fairly often. Everyone knows like hey I need to do some bit manipulation and they just come to me and then it's like yeah yeah, yeah, Okay I'll do this for you. And so like what was 1 Oh we needed to like write a very partial parser for some unicode encoding stuff which of course like C plus Plus probably has a library for somewhere but we just needed a subset so like dropping into the bit math and like.

56:42.75
digitalghost
That's amazing.

57:01.74
Patrick
Deciding when you needed to continue on to like a 1 byte 2 byte or 3 byte or four byte unicode encoding like you know, just like hacking that crap out as like bit shift operations and you know some pointer math. Ah yeah that I I don't know I'm kind of proud of it because.

57:15.20
digitalghost
Um, that is amazing.

57:19.57
Patrick
In my head Somehow the bits move and it works but like I've never successfully explained that code to anyone else.

57:24.50
digitalghost
You know there's this Iq test called Ravens Matrices have you heard of this so it's It's basically this really complicated pattern matching and it's been heralded as you know you know I Oh my God I mean we could spend like a whole show or.

57:28.92
Patrick
No, it's it's.

57:41.83
digitalghost
Multiple shows talking about like iq tests and now that whole thing but but um, you know 1 of the nice things about Ravens matrices is that you don't have to know any particular language and it's supposed to be like a pretty pure test of like viio spatial intelligence I have this feeling from just knowing you for many years that you would. Like get a high score on Ravens matrices like you score like an infinity I have a kind of rest a followup. It seems like the work you're doing it just surprises me that it's done in c plus plus is that what was the the reason I mean I know that.

58:02.20
Patrick
Oh no, no now I'm definitely not going to look it up and I'm definitely not going to try it.

58:21.10
Patrick
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

58:21.18
digitalghost
I Don't want to like dive into like your day job but ah like ah did someone just make the call and say we're going to write all of this in C Plus plus.

58:26.83
Patrick
I mean I think it's like we like the stuff I'm doing right now is like a library to other stuff. So so we write a bunch of library for moving moving data around and doing really efficient like really tuned stuff because of the scale we work at like not distributedly but like on a single.

58:43.74
digitalghost
Oh I see okay.

58:45.85
Patrick
Sort of like system and so because other people who need to call us are in C Plus plus like we kind of have to be in C Plus Plus then when we need to write our own like interfacing to our like infrastructure it most obvious to just work in C Plus plus or else you have to like write ah some sort of like exporter which we do do occasionally like.

58:50.23
digitalghost
Got it.

59:01.56
digitalghost
Yeah py bind or 1 of these things got it that makes sense. Um, so letl asks thoughts on server side rendering react and next js.

59:04.74
Patrick
Exports this out to Json or py binded or or whatever right? Um, but yeah, so.

59:17.50
Patrick
Well I'm glad you knew what that was but you covered this spoiler alert.

59:21.40
digitalghost
What's that oh? yeah yeah I mean this is wow this is ah what is the opposite of foreshadowing this is backshadowing but I'm obviously a huge fan of next js but I'll I'll talk about server-side rendering I am I am not really sold on server-side rendering. So. So I'll give a quick backstory here. Um a while back google released this report and 1 of the things report said was that for every so many milliseconds it takes google's results to show up. Um, they lose that many people. So. In other words, they they did a test where they artificially added a little delay and even just adding a ten Millisecond delay cost google you know and everything is at this extraordinary scale right? So cost google a bazillion dollars or something and so they showed how you know sites have to be as responsive as possible even down to the millisecond. And so server-side rendering as it suggests. It's a way to and there's different ways. I mean there's there's pre-rendering where if they have a website that's never a site that's never going to change like imagine your end user license agreement or something you just render that once and then you never have to render it again that I think makes sense. But. But then there's this server-side rendering where you still have to do everything you'd have to do on the client. You're just doing it on the server and then sending the result and there's and and like maybe you can pre-compute like a tiny bit of it. Um, or even a lot of it but not all of it. And you know I'm not totally convinced that Ssr is as important as people are making it out to be um, so yeah I have to meml skeptical of that. Um, but nextjs is amazing I think everyone should be using it and and there's probably alternatives so I um, by no means a.

01:01:08.52
Patrick
Ah.

01:01:16.40
digitalghost
Front end expert but I went from you know, writing in react and then a website in you know, flask or 1 of these things to just doing the whole thing browser and server in next and I found that amazing and so you know other things that do. Similar to next might be better, but but that paradigm I think is awesome.

01:01:37.49
Patrick
I Have no comment and not because it's controversial but because it's too far from me right.

01:01:41.63
digitalghost
All right? So we have glen s um glen s is our next winner also no address. So I don't know where you're from oh wow but but glen s has been a member for a very long time. He's contributed over 3 hundred dollars.

01:01:57.86
Patrick
Wow! Thank you.

01:02:00.10
digitalghost
Um, over the years so yeah thank you so much glenn for supporting the show. We really really appreciate it. Um, and we will get a t-shirt over to you.

01:02:09.47
Patrick
Um, M C Platypus says any thoughts on the visual programming language Lab view I Oh really? yeah I do actually ah and this all segway. So.

01:02:17.86
digitalghost
I Don't know anything about it. Do you know anything.

01:02:27.11
Patrick
I have done programming in Lab view. Um, actually this is this is you know 1 of those things where I guess I sort of take it for granted and then it turns out like you're a bit different than everyone else like this happens to me every so often I think everyone this happens right? like. You just assume people are kind of like you right? Um, or at least I do um the maybe that's an assumption itself. Oh this goes deep hang on'm having an existential crisis. Um, yeah, So oh gosh come back. Come back, come back? Okay, so.

01:02:46.16
digitalghost
Um, me.

01:02:54.65
digitalghost
Um, you have what is it assumptionception.

01:03:03.33
Patrick
So this is like a broader story specific story. So I wrote some code actually some control loop stuff in lab view and um, you know it's 1 of those things where everyone says oh no code you can do this stuff in lab view and then I look at it and I'm like this is just coding like even with debugging just like. Without the scary with like pictures and arrows and not the like curly braces or white space. Um, that are your you know, controlled flows and so I think like it I don't know like it's it's. Everyone says it's kind of different but then it doesn't end up being all that different at least I don't approach it all that different like I end up doing it really similarly. But I think this is held across other things in my experience like for an example, that's pertinent to like my background is I wrote some c code but I wrote my c code. Very much like I write my c plus plus code but a lot of people who write c code. Don't write it in that style they write it in a completely different style so to me I didn't find that much difference but a lot of people do stuff in a ah, very different style which makes like for instance type safety stuff. Much harder to do and so they just lean all in on it not being typeaf or less type safe I should say and so um I think lab view can be a bit this more similar than it is different I don't think it's some great thing I mean but I guess what.

01:04:19.36
digitalghost
Who.

01:04:33.60
Patrick
I would say about it is as an example of the reason why I got into programming it is there was a piece of hardware that needed ah some code written to control it and I could have said you know there were I think c plus plus bindings for the drivers and stuff. But the person already had been up and fiddling it in lab view and so using the right tool for the right job. It was my call that the right tool was to just keep doing what they needed in lab view which was taking some input and controlling some system some hardware. Um, because they already had the parts that I knew would be most difficult to do like interfacing with drivers and all that stuff already taken care of and so the work at hand was easier for me to adapt to the tool than to bring my own toolset and I think that's something that. I take with me a lot of places like I joke of like Jason asking me like why are you using c plus plus or whatever which slightly different but like you know if it calls for python I'll use python if it calls for Javascript I'll use javascript like I may not be the best at those but like.

01:05:36.00
digitalghost
Yeah mix and.

01:05:41.73
Patrick
I Think a lot of people spent a lot more time adapting the problem to where they're comfortable than to meeting the problem where it is.

01:05:49.79
digitalghost
Yep, that makes sense I've I've been burned actually by wysiwig twice. Um, although you know for for doing um for doing ah desktop apps. It's Amazing. So if you're using Qt. Um, the Qt creator or Qt designer I think they rebranded it? Um, where you basically have this visual thing and then it Auto generates a bunch of Python code and you can kind of fill in I think I think now you you extend the class that they auto generate but effectively you know fill in the functions I think that's amazing works really well. Um I haven't seen anything like that for the web. Um, but that could work if if it existed Um, but I yeah I use this tool called ah Patrick you might have used this too called Power Drill which was this wysiwig thing where you drag and drop boxes. With like little logic blocks in them and basically what it would do is build a giant sql statement for you and so then it would you'd run you. You would ah build this flow and power drill and then you'd press go and it would just turn that into a sql command and run it. Um, and then they they deprecated it and then they ended up killing it. And so I end up having to and this of course like any Wysywig tool The sql it generates is totally unreadable and atrocious. So. So so I ended up having to redo all of my work. Um, you know writing those Sql queries by hand and then I went to another company much later.

01:07:07.12
Patrick
Yep.

01:07:18.48
digitalghost
And made exactly the same mistake where they had a tool called um, it was called Data Swarm So data swarm was this tool where you could you know write a bunch of sql and you could write it in blocks. So you could write a sql command.

01:07:19.10
Patrick
Ah.

01:07:35.42
digitalghost
And then instead of having all these nested Sql commands which gets really ugly you could sort of like pass a sql to another Sql Command Um, and and it was all driven through this python. Um, you know library and so that was fine but then they had this thing called Datastorm Studio which was this same thing drag and drop. You put little blocks of sql in these in these boxes and you connect them with arrows and it knows to chain the commands together. Um, and for both of these I thought the tools were pretty nice and so I used them and in both times they killed them and then I end up having to redo all the work. And both times actually the reasons were exactly the same. They said that that it was just a nightmare for data engineers. Um, you know other people. So Basically it was easy for you to create something. It was hard for someone else to you know, build state on what you were doing.

01:08:26.95
Patrick
And.

01:08:28.85
digitalghost
So it's much easier for other people to just look at a page of code than to like look at all these boxes and arrows because once you start introducing all of that now you have this like spatio model spatial model that like like this yeah this model that.

01:08:39.96
Patrick
Yes.

01:08:45.60
digitalghost
Has congruency between like your mind and how you think of things spatially and and the project and so I guess like you know that is something that's really hard for other people like like different people come in with totally different ways of you know, laying things out spatially and so um. Um, and so yeah, I've never used Lab view. But but ah in general I try and stay away from Wyzzywig because even though I think it's great I've just been burned to meantimes.

01:09:14.26
Patrick
You're reminding me of ah this tallest side and we should move on but that is it Zach Troni So like Chem Factory and or you know some of the other games like even human resource machine or whatever where like. It seems really simple and like how I do it and then if you showed me what you did like it would be really hard for me to like sit down and actually parse out like the lack of syntax in the way that we do syntax for like more efficient and programming languages.

01:09:33.14
digitalghost
Um, yeah.

01:09:44.52
Patrick
Yeah, it's sort of an impediment to like understanding what someone else did like it made sense when you created it and you can look at it and understand and track and debug it but bringing someone else up to speed is a bit more tricky.

01:09:57.14
digitalghost
Yep yep, that makes sense so james f you are our next winner james f um is a brand new Patron. He's been on for for one month so

01:10:06.57
Patrick
Welcome.

01:10:11.80
digitalghost
So James you are net positive. You can actually cancel your subscription now. Get your t-shirt. Ah I'm just kidding and and kids will suffer James they will not be able to hear about the show because of you now, just kidding, but but James is a a brand New patron.

01:10:12.48
Patrick
No no, you can't say that.

01:10:28.85
digitalghost
Ah, was lucky and wanted shirt Congratulations James and yeah I have to get your address. It's not in the system. But um, but no seriously I mean Thanks so much for being a Patron I mean we're just kidding and and it's It's really great to see new Folks. You know, joining and signing up. And yeah I will track you down and get a t-shirt over to you James.. Thanks.

01:10:50.48
Patrick
Um, ah so we we got through the questions we had before we started but some people have been interacting with us I know I can't find the thread but I think someone commented about for future technology or big technologies. What about ar.

01:11:06.26
digitalghost
Oh what about ar that's interesting. Um, well I can say that I really got into vr this year and I know we talked about it on a past show but you know I got I was super late adopter to most things similar to smartphone I got a vr headset for free which is. Probably the only reason why I have 1 um, but but then I really got into it and actually I was on it today I mean I'm on it. Um, yeah, you know? yeah on it right now I'm on it multiple times a week it's always ah I'm really into doing exercise I feel like exercise plus vr for me, it just works really well.

01:11:31.78
Patrick
Right now. Yeah.

01:11:45.25
digitalghost
Um, it just really clicks for me. Um, but but yeah, so so Ar um, I've seen some cool things that they are but I don't know if I've really seen um that Killer app I mean I remember when Google Glass came out. Um. You know it was a cool idea. But no 1 really did anything. Um, yeah, 1 thing I would love to get my hands on actually is the snapchat spectacles where it's like those those sunglasses that have cameras built into the sunglasses so you don't have to take your phone out to take a picture.

01:12:12.18
Patrick
Looks like this.

01:12:22.00
digitalghost
Yeah I like I miss so many great photos because about time you take your phone out. Go to the camera. It's like the moment's gone. You know so so that I think um, you know those I think are really cool but I have yet to see an Ar you know Killer app I Mean what do you feel.

01:12:38.92
Patrick
I think ar is I was having this conversation with someone is 1 of those things that will come. We will eventually get it. But the question is like do we have the right technology at the right state to do it now I don't know that it's always true because like flying cars. Never.

01:12:39.67
digitalghost
Ah, patrick.

01:12:57.62
Patrick
Like ah we're always going to be a thing until we realized yeah they probably won't be a thing. Um, but I feel like Ahar is just so like in some form is so obvious eventually someone will work out the pattern like what's needed to just do it real slick like adjusting for your.

01:13:00.97
digitalghost
Yeah.

01:13:15.75
Patrick
What you're perceiving getting the latency low enough like having a killer app like I feel like it's just too useful that like if it were you know super low marginal costs to just add it to my existing glasses or to sunglasses like why would you not do it. Even if it was low functionality if the if the price were well enough. Yeah.

01:13:34.85
digitalghost
Yeah, there's actually there's 2 ar things that I started that I checked out which I thought were really cool. Um, 1 was um, that have you seen bricket I think we talked about it on the show. Um, bricket is this thing where you.

01:13:50.10
Patrick
Brexit.

01:13:54.90
digitalghost
You take a whole bunch of random Lego pieces you lay them out on your carpet. Um, but you make sure that there's they're not over. There's no occlusions but you you lay them out on your carpet and then you take a picture with the bricket app and it will actually you know analyze all the pieces figure out what they are.

01:13:57.73
Patrick
I'll give.

01:14:11.79
digitalghost
And then tell you something cool. You can build and it'll actually give you the instructions step by step and everything.

01:14:19.66
Patrick
You Yeah, you did tell I I gonna have to try this like you tell me about it again now I'm like excited I'm like going on my phone right now I've never tried but.

01:14:25.00
digitalghost
Yeah I've never tried it. But so that I think is an Ar real breakthrough and then another thing that I found out recently is and I'm not sure how well this works. But there's there's a there's a whole collection of apps Around. Um I don't know what the. Productivity I Guess so there's 1 app I saw where you take a picture of a collection of stuff on the ground and in this app there actually can be occlusions and stuff.. The only rule is that all the things have to be the same. Um, you take a picture of a pile of things and it will tell you approximately how many there are.

01:15:01.19
Patrick
Oh.

01:15:02.94
digitalghost
So you know you drop a bunch of nails on the floor. You take a picture. It's like oh forty seven nails and it might be right like within 1 or 2 nails. Um, that's a really cool app and there's another app that's effectively like a ruler or like a tape measure that it uses ar yeah I think these kind of things are.

01:15:14.68
Patrick
Yeah, just.

01:15:19.72
digitalghost
Really, really cool and actually I think even google glass um I think it's still used right by you know, doctors and and there's a couple of other productivity uses that it's kept it alive today.

01:15:33.30
Patrick
Ah, yeah, so the next 1 was on the topic of getting a master's degree or classes. Do you see a benefit of getting certifications.

01:15:46.35
digitalghost
Um, um, what's your take Patrick to think about this.

01:15:51.99
Patrick
So I will say this varies hugely I know I've talked to people that say like at their work like it is a rubric like you must have X number of you know they they give examples here like Aws Scrum Master titles like these various. Certificates or even there's all the it Certificates. So I talk to people who like you must have X amount of training classes and these things to like get a promotion or if you don't like and if if that's the case like ya sure got to do it and those places probably would respect it if you came in but look I'll tell you honestly where I am it doesn't matter a lick.

01:16:20.20
digitalghost
Wow. But.

01:16:30.93
Patrick
Like if you have it on your resume and you show up I'm not going to know what they are no 1 else is going to know what they are. We're not going to know which ones are easy or hard to get so I I won't say like they're meaningless because you could find someone who knew what they meant. But. I Know that some certifications are easy. You just put in the time I know that some are really hard to actually legit like difficult to get but I don't know the difference and so it's a bit hard for me to make an assessment of them so they don't They're not something I look for or would. Encourage people trying to get a job at my workplace to to to pursue.

01:17:06.57
digitalghost
Yeah, that makes sense I would say um I would take a bit more optimistic to you know, point of view I think that if I see a certificate what it shows to me is that the person has an interest in an area. Um I can't really know enough to say is a certificate you know, ah did it require you know like how challenging it is or how comprehensive it is or how credit it is but at least so for example, someone might have a degree in mechanical engineering and. You might think right off the bat like why is this person joining some ai research lab and they have a degree in mechanical engineering and so it might not really make sense and if they say oh but you know I got if there resume says oh yeah I got that degree I'll say 8 years ago but a year ago I took. This coursera course on you know, deep learning or something like that and it shows like okay this person you know wants to pivot and um, you know they're putting time and effort into learning you know a different set of skills and so that at least like sends the message and that message might be important. To um to get the interview. Um, now like you know I don't think anyone's going to trust any of those certificates so you're still you know know the best case is you get the interview and you're going to get tested on ai theory and you're you're going to know it or not I don't think anyone's gonna say oh well I don't have to. Interview this person they have a certificate. Um, but yeah I would say you know it. It probably is good to get. Um you know, get past the sourcing and the the you know early stages of screening of an interview. Um. And and yeah, as as far as like will you actually learn the right material and everything that it's just there's too much variance to really know the answer there.

01:18:57.60
Patrick
Yeah I guess like that's the thing like anything can be a value ad the question is like relative to what like if you're doing that instead of spending time committing to an open source project or doing something else right? Like that's what you got to ask and for then it's a question of like. Your style of learning your motivations your skill sets the job you're going after like there's just too many variables.

01:19:22.95
digitalghost
That's a really good point. Actually you know if I saw you know to continue my example if I saw a resume where someone pointed out some github projects or if they were involved in like ah some some groups on you know, ai like maybe some Linkedin group on ai if they're moderating that. I think I could get the same signal and like enough to kick off an interview without the person having to get this whole degree.

01:19:47.44
Patrick
Um, I think that so I think there's some other oh well here sorry 1 more and then people commenting about things we already commented on but this is ah ah a never ending loop so left of probably probably cut it there. But um, how hard would it be to get a job with an associates degree.

01:20:04.10
digitalghost
Um, yeah I mean I think you know the the non-answer but is important is you know depends what job right? Um, but I think you know if your goal is to you know be a software developer. Um. I think you know I think we I don't know if I mentioned this on the show or not but I think you know smaller companies are definitely the way to go. Um, when you're you know there's this idea of sort of your your resume strength versus your interview strength and when your interview strength is a lot. Higher a lot stronger than your resume strength then you'll tend to do really well at smaller companies and because smaller companies will you know ah will screen every well maybe not screen every candidate but they at least look at every single resume. And they might even call every single person who applies. um and so um and so so definitely that's a good way to build up your resume once you you know once you have you know 5 definitely by the time you have 10 years of experience I don't think anyone's really looking at your your college anymore. And so it's really just about how do you get the flywheel turning and so I think yeah small companies are a good way to do that? Um, yeah, a lot of the bigger companies they get millions of resumes and they have all sorts of automatic screening. Um, there's that joke from the Google movie the internship um hump there's this joke where the. Person's trying to find people to join his intern group and he asks where the person went to college and the person says university of and then before he can even say it just because it started with university of the guys like next you know I'm done with you and so and so that that part of the movie always annoyed me. But.

01:21:47.66
Patrick
Ah.

01:21:53.56
digitalghost
But anyway I mean the the point there is ah is that you know they go through so many interviews that they are optimizing for um, they are optimizing for 100 percent for precision right? And if if they lose ninety nine out of 1 hundred good candidates. That's fine as long as they get. Um, enough good candidates to fill up their teams right? so um so yeah start with a smaller company. Um, yeah I mean there's a whole question around. Should you go back and get a voucher's degree I mean that's a very hard question I think it depends on many many factors but but but if you want if you have an associates and you want to start working. You know, start with a smaller company build up that resume and and don't really ever look back I think you'll be fine.

01:22:36.58
Patrick
Yeah I think it was a pretty comprehensive answer like it. It really depends. But I would say again like on the scale if I took it on to take a different tack rather than answering it absolutely answering it relatively which is it is much harder to get. That first job within associates then a bachelor's degree and and I would say it's like a pretty pretty hard like it's it's it's it would be significantly hard. You'd find a lot fewer people getting in with associates even with some work experience than people with Bachelor's degrees and. I think in part and that may be like a misunderstanding but in part most associates degrees don't cover the like degrees specificific stuff that you get into in a bachelor's degree. So at least as far as I'm aware most of the time when you get an associate degree. It's not going to cover a ton of computer science courses or. Higher level like domainspecific stuff just like you get that refinement at each level right? You add it in your bachelor's you refine it in your master's you even further in your ph d and so I guess there would have to be like Jason is saying there would have to be other evidence or some narrative that explained like. What that was.

01:23:53.53
digitalghost
Yep yep, totally makes sense so we'll do 1 more and then we'll kind of close it out. so um so dawn r from Pennsylvania who who's been a member for almost 4 years so wow

01:24:06.81
Patrick
Most nice.

01:24:09.59
digitalghost
What a long time I mean it's ah that's incredible. Um I didn't realize we've been on Patreon that long but ah, man time really does fly doesn't it. Um, so yeah, Don you know, Thank you so much for your support. We'll be sending you over a t-shirt like I got your address so we'll.

01:24:15.68
Patrick
Ah.

01:24:27.65
digitalghost
Um, we'll definitely get you a t-shirt and yeah, thanks, all our patreons just a bit of a sort of meta stuff here last time we did this um, 2 people of the 5 winners. Um I knew personally and so I kind of felt a little bad. It was it was like. And it was just random. Um, you know it. It was very low probability that happening but it did and I'm looking at it right now and almost all of my personal friends are at the bottom so that's just how the cookie crumpled this year but in a way it makes me feel good that ah, um, yeah, that that we have ah.

01:24:56.35
Patrick
Ah, it just.

01:25:06.80
digitalghost
Ah, some some brand new folks here getting ah getting prizes which is which is really really awesome and and thank you everybody for your support. Um and and all of your contributions. We really appreciate it. So maybe we'll go out on a.

01:25:20.10
Patrick
Um, right and look stopping network from.

01:25:24.64
digitalghost
On on. Ah you know, conclude on a kind of question like what is your you think we talked about tech trends I think last year um you're saying how space is going to be a ah big deal or was that something we did in the middle of the year I think last year

01:25:39.52
Patrick
Um I talk about it all the time. So.

01:25:43.72
digitalghost
Yeah, well I feel like I feel like space. Um in 2021 um didn't get that much attention. But I think that's because you know all of the other crazy things that happened in the world really took precedent I mean with the pandemic and everything. Um.

01:26:00.78
Patrick
I mean I have video of sitting with my ah my kids and watching them blow up several starships and then finally land 1 on my phone as we live streamed it in my ah living room by yeah yeah.

01:26:02.54
digitalghost
But.

01:26:11.56
digitalghost
Was that this year oh man okay yeah I'm out of the loop. So so actually so geez. Yeah, so so your prediction was that I think your prediction was that in Toy Twenty one they would kind of figure out.

01:26:17.55
Patrick
2021's been long.

01:26:27.98
digitalghost
Basically what you just said. So I think you got it spot on I think my prediction was around education if I remember correctly I said that I don't know if we I don't think we made 1 year predictions but we're just making predictions about the feature and I was predicting that.

01:26:28.64
Patrick
Um, oh oh Wow. Okay.

01:26:47.60
digitalghost
That ah, there'd be a lot more sort of privatized education and scholarships and actually you know 1 thing that kind of you know, starting to corroborate. This is you know there was a big push to cancel the student debt which I think um would have just. Ah. Um, would have would have really just kept the system going right? But then now it seems like that's not happening and so yeah, I'm going to stick to that idea that I think that that scholarships and and a lesser degree. You know you know academia in general is going to become kind of more privatized. And maybe more decentralized. Um so we'll see it's been It's been such a crazy year it's hard to really make progress in that kind of area but but I still think I'm still going to hold on to that prediction I think it's going to happen. What is your prediction for space I mean yeah.

01:27:39.95
Patrick
Yeah I think space. Yeah sorry I I was dead air because I was trying to think of something impact was like the vacuum of spit and I'm just getting um.

01:27:51.63
digitalghost
Ah, wasn't there. Ah there was a probe that like went to the surface of the sun or something just recently.

01:27:55.67
Patrick
Yeah, there was yeah that just recently I mean I think my prediction first base and technology is going to be like you're going to see a huge rollout with starlink because they continue to just push like like ah almost 1 hundred satellites. It's like Seventy satellites or something per launch. And so they're just putting so many satellites up I think you're going to see a huge rollout of starlink this year and um, continue to see all the other companies flap around I think the james webb telescope is going to make it up and deploy successfully finally this next year and that's not spacex related. And I think we'll see starship. Do um, at least 2 orbital tests where they successfully do do orbits.

01:28:43.41
digitalghost
Cool, yeah, actually you just reminded me that. Ah yeah William shatner and a bunch of these celebrities went to space. Yeah, right? Actually we should do you know we should definitely do a space episode I mean yeah, you know you'll do talkingll I'll ask a bunch of dumb questions. But.

01:28:48.21
Patrick
Oh I didn't even talk about Blue origin. Yeah yeah, wow was a good year for space.

01:29:02.57
digitalghost
But we should definitely definitely do a space upset What about you I've heard about like there's there's too much debris like where the satellites are is that a real thing or is that just fear and doubt.

01:29:08.70
Patrick
Yeah, so um, I mean it is a real thing and people say oh if it gets bad enough like we won't be able to go to space anymore like we'll lose access to space I think that's a bit of a stretch because. We know how we could at great expense, you know, sort of fix the problem which is basically stuff starts colliding with itself in outer space and you just form this cloud of debris the shell of debris that just you know. Hovers around the earth and so getting in and out of orbit is is harder. Um I think it wouldn't happen right away I think we know how to clean it up if we needed to I think it's 1 of those things that it is just like the first people to land in a new. Unexplored island or whatever can say like oh I'm going to harvest these giant you know trees for my ship masts and then the next people who come you know like as it becomes more and more settled you have to be more and more conscientious about preserving what's there and you can pillage it.

01:30:12.57
digitalghost
That makes sense.

01:30:16.81
Patrick
But you can also realize hey this is not sustainable and you can you know adapt it which mitigates the situation from spiraling out of control and then you enact some ability to clean those things up. So I think we'll see as it gets cheaper and cheaper to get to space. You'll get more stuff in space. But you'll also have the ability to go you know de-orbit things which could otherwise cause more space. Debris.

01:30:41.59
digitalghost
Makes sense I guess a couple of facts just to end this on which I think you know really you know it's been a very tough year it's we kind of started the show by talking about what a difficult year it is um, but a couple of amazing facts I saw 1 is. Um, the Earth has thirty percent more trees than it did at the start of the industrial revolution and it has something like I think America has something like thirty percent more trees than it did 15 years ago or something like that. It's just unbelievable. The amount of reforestation.

01:31:14.23
Patrick
Um, ah like.

01:31:19.78
digitalghost
Is unbelievable, um, and another really cool fact is um, ah you know global poverty over the past hundred years went from 50 seven percent to I think it's just 7 or maybe it's fifty 2 to 7 but I mean it's enormous. Like decrease in global poverty and so you know things are actually like you know overall things are amazing. I mean you you put on a long enough horizon and you start looking like 3040 years and um and there's been amazing remarkable progress that you know the whole world should be super proud of. Um, so in that sense has' been been pretty awesome. But of course you we need to get the pandemic figured out. Yeah cool all right I think we can wrap it up there. It's been a really amazing year I know you know patrick and I both moved so it's been a very very busy year

01:32:02.31
Patrick
Oh guys.

01:32:15.43
Patrick
Yes, like.

01:32:17.10
digitalghost
Um, actually I moved last year but I'm still recovering. Um been a very busy year for for both of us. But um, you know hope it's been a great year for all you folks out there and it's been. Ah, it's been really special being able to have your ears for ah for an hour every month or every 2 weeks now that we have a producer um and you know we want to keep the show going. We will keep keep the show going have a bunch of cool interviews lined up. We have a bunch of cool topics lined up. We have Space. We have space topic lined up and all right cool.

01:32:37.35
Patrick
It.

01:32:51.21
Patrick
I'm ready for.

01:32:53.25
digitalghost
And yeah, thanks everyone again for supporting this show and we'll see you all next year

01:32:56.33
Patrick
See it.