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Veteran worship leaders Brian Davis and Paul Romig-Leavitt interview worship leaders and ministry thought leaders about their time in the trenches at their church chasing Sunday week after week while trying to keep their creative soul alive.
>> Brian Davis: Hey there, chasing Sunday listeners.
Um, this is Brian Davis. You might be thinking to
yourself, hmm, usually Paul and Brian have
a new season of the podcast out right about now.
They have always been so consistent
about scheduling their posts. This is
very odd. I wonder what's going on.
Well, don't you worry. You are pretty little ahead about it.
Um, we're still working on new content for season four, and we're
gonna get that out into the podcast sphere just as soon as we
can. Um, but we have a few other
irons in the fire right now. Um, they're good irons.
One might even say that they're great irons. The best irons.
Um, and, uh, we're focusing our attention on
those right now. So once those irons are
fully forged, we'll get right back into producing the same
quality content you've come to know and love on the
Chasing Sunday podcast. In the
meantime, as a special gift to you, we did have
one episode in the can, as they say. It's
a delightful interview with our friend Dave King. Uh,
Dave was our guest back in November of 2022
where we talked about best practices for use of
technology in the worship space. Well,
Dave's back to talk more worship and technology,
as well as some deeply philosophical insights from
Paul. Uh, that may or may not have left Dave and me
wondering if he's doing okay. Um,
so I invite you to enjoy this very
special episode of the Chasing Sunday podcast with
our friend Dave King. Um, as always, you can
help us out a lot by subscribing to this podcast on your
favorite podcast service, uh, rating us,
or even leaving a review. All those things are
great. And, uh, help other people know
about the chasing Sunday podcast. Also, if
you want to keep updated on what we're working on, uh,
while we're not recording the podcast and taking this little break,
those aforementioned irons in the fire,
um, head on over to torncurtainarts.org, or you
can follow us on Instagram. Torn, uh, curtain
arts is our handle all one word. Um, so,
uh, check that out. Uh, we've got some really, really cool
things on the horizon and that we'd love for you to know about, so follow
us on the socials or check out our website,
torncurtainarts.org, to learn, uh,
more. In the meantime, thanks for
listening. Here is our interview with Dave
King.
Well, it's the chasing Sunday podcast,
and that's our new theme song. Sorry, that's it.
>> Paul: Uh, it's the creepiest,
most pathetic theme
song we could think of.
>> Brian Davis: Thank you so much for listening. We are your hosts. My name
is Brian Davis.
>> Paul: And I'm Paul Romig Leavitt
>> Brian Davis: And those are our names.
>> Dave King: Yes.
>> Paul: And this is season four.
>> Brian Davis: Season four. Season, um.
Four.
>> Paul: Who knew that we could make a second episode to begin
with? Now we're onto season four.
>> Brian Davis: Season four. It's. It is. It's been. It's
been a heck of a ride.
>> Paul: Yes.
>> Brian Davis: And, uh, enjoying every.
Every second of it.
>> Paul: Yeah. And I. And I don't mind saying, I feel like
we're starting to hit a stride, I think.
>> Brian Davis: So we.
>> Paul: We kind of get a good, you know, good thing going. We
have guests, especially, like, today's
guest, which is, like, not just an
expert in the field of,
uh, technology with churches
and tech teams and stuff like that, but a
genuine friend that the conversation doesn't feel
like question and answer kind of thing. It's like we get
started on a conversation, and it's. And it's
great to listen to. I mean, I really enjoy
this talk with. With Dave King.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. So, uh, you may recognize that name. Uh,
Dave was a, uh, guest of ours in season
two. Uh, all the way
back in season two. Um,
and, uh. Um,
we've had the pleasure and the honor of being able to work with
him on some projects,
um, and just also to get
to know him. And, um. I
don't know, he's just an all around good guy.
>> Paul: He's fantastic.
>> Brian Davis: Uh, and yeah, like you said, just super
knowledgeable, uh, but
practical. Like, his. He's not so.
Like, he's not so smart that.
That he loses you, you know? Um, he has
a way of saying things and putting things in a way that are
understandable and relatable, uh,
accessible. All of the hubbles. Um,
yeah, he's a. He's an able person.
>> Paul: He's an able person.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah.
>> Paul: Right. I mean, if. And if you hadn't heard that,
that episode in season two, we kind of talk a little bit more about his
resume, but just sort of the bullet points of what he
does right now. He's currently the senior av manager
for the Denver art museum. Uh, he
has been the lead work. Lead worship
pastor. Lead, not lead
pastor. I don't know what I'm saying. Worship pastor
for Bethany, ah,
christian church in Lakewood. Um, he's
also been the tech director for a variety of
different churches and been hired through.
He works with Torrin Curtin, he's worked with
Envia, a collective helping, um,
church teams develop great
technology systems that make their,
um, worship services. Their live stream
broadcasts go smoothly,
but his distinctive is really, I think his
pastoral approach towards
volunteers.
>> Brian Davis: Um.
>> Paul: Sometimes tech leaders can
sometimes be a bit of the, uh,
church it guy kind of thing, where it's just sort of like,
move only the person,
professionals, you know. But he has this
great ability to empower people and empower
teams. So, um, he brings a lot of that wisdom to us
today.
>> Brian Davis: Well, and I think he also, um, is, is
very pastoral in his, uh, his
stewardship of, of the technology.
>> Paul: Yeah.
>> Brian Davis: Um, he's not just, you know,
he's not just walking in looking for the. The latest
and greatest or the best and the brightest, um, in terms
of gear or anything like that, like, whatever you have.
He can, he can probably make it work. That's true. Um,
and work well. So, uh, I just,
I love his mindset about that, which is, uh, one of the
reasons we thought it would be great for, uh, for him to come
back and, uh, and be on season four.
So you're gonna, you're gonna thank
yourself.
>> Dave King: And listening to this episode.
>> Brian Davis: All right. Enjoy this episode with Dave King.
>> Paul: And why do we feel like Dave was so important to
bring the back on the fourth season?
The first episode of the fourth season?
>> Brian Davis: Well, because, I mean, look at him.
>> Paul: Look at him.
>> Dave King: Everybody listening. Look at him, look at him.
>> Paul: This is an audio medium.
>> Brian Davis: You just have to take our word for it.
>> Paul: No, but I will tell you, it's just small. I will tell you
who's the guy that I go to first?
Who's the person I ask first when it comes to
tech gear. Um,
and the church breakfast.
>> Brian Davis: Oh, wait, no, sorry. Dave King.
No, that's the most important meal of the day. I'm sorry.
>> Dave King: Gotcha.
>> Brian Davis: Who do you go to first? Is Dave King, uh,
because, uh, he's a
genius. I would go so far as to say a guru
in the tech world, at least in the tech world that
we exist within.
>> Paul: And we're starting like this. I mean, not to just make you
uncomfortable, but because it's really important. It's not
just his technical knowledge. Um. Um, it's
that he. I will just. I'm going to throw this out there. It's
like you're a coach, you're a pastor. Dare
I use that word? Um. Um. For people who
put on events and especially for churches, and
for churches, for most of churches who are, you know,
200, 5200 people or less,
um. Um, that's mostly everybody. So. And they all
have to deal with how do we turn on
something? How do we get online?
Or how do we make it sound good? Why don't the
lights work. Um, and it's not
as you know, anything in technology is not a
binary. It's not like an on and off sort of
thing. There's so many nuances.
>> Brian Davis: I mean, in the strictest sense, yes, it
is. It's on or off.
>> Paul: It is.
>> Brian Davis: But yes, there's a lot of gray area.
>> Paul: That is the thing. Uh, that's what's
so deceptive is that we think because it's
binary, digital zeros and ones,
that it's as simple as a switch. Right. And it's
so, you know, tempting for us. But, you
know, this is all usually when we're
talking about technology, we're talking about people.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah.
>> Paul: And messing around with people. So anyway, that's the big preamble,
but welcome, Dave.
>> Brian Davis: I will say, yeah, uh, to piggyback off what you
said is, and we'll
stop heaping compliments on you, Dave, because I can tell it's making you
really comfortable. You're super at ease right now.
Um, but that
I think it's the people that you care about more
than the technology that they're using or trying to
learn how to use. And so, and
in our world and in our books, I think that that
makes you invaluable.
>> Paul: Yeah.
>> Brian Davis: Which means you're so valuable that you're
invaluable.
>> Paul: Right.
>> Dave King: So nice. Well, thank you guys for having
me back.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah.
>> Dave King: Um, I'm humbled and honored and maybe
it touched surprise. I think even just how the,
this podcast started out
reminds, um, me of my typical role of just like
listening and observing and
seeing. And obviously you guys, um,
talk to each other all the time and do this all the time. So it's fun to be in a
room with you, um, to be able to
converse, um, sitting around a
table and things that we're passionate about and things we love.
So thank you guys.
>> Paul: Yeah. Now, so you've been working with
churches of a variety of different sizes for
years. Would you say that most churches
basically struggle with the same things? Or is
there one problem in particular
that is probably the biggest thing that churches deal
with when it comes to their technology?
>> Dave King: Um, that's a great question, I think. Um, I wouldn't say it's one
specific thing, but probably a top three, uh,
that I see pretty often. Um,
and that is typically something wrong with a
livestream solution. Whether it's um,
even a drill down more, it's image
doesn't look good, probably because they don't have great lighting
or the cameras aren't dialed in or the wrong cameras or the wrong
lighting, um, or the audio.
They just can't make the band sound like it does in the room and they
don't understand why. Um, so I'd say
livestream is kind of a big one.
Simple, um, even granular to the
pastor or teaching mic, the main
microphone for the sermon or teaching moment. Um,
just dropping out or feeding
back or they just don't have enough headroom, can get
allowed enough. Very um, common issue. And
then another big one is just not having
um, the right kind of team
or tech team or um, volunteer team
to kind of operate the equipment.
Um, those three seem like pretty, you know, and
every church, every space is different, but those
three kind of pop up quite a bit.
>> Paul: Yeah.
>> Brian Davis: What, what in, in your mind,
what makes, what makes
a person the right kind of person to be in, in that
position or helping? Uh, I mean,
a lot of the people that we're talking about in, in these positions at
churches are volunteers. Um, so what,
yeah, what makes that person the right person to operate in that
space?
>> Dave King: Um, I, that's a great
question. I've seen a lot of
maybe not the great, best, awesome
person in the position, but that's, um, who was
available and who had the time and who had the desire
to step into that role.
>> Brian Davis: Um.
>> Dave King: Man, I'm trying to compare it or think of
a certain church or ministry where it's like, oh, ah,
man, that person is perfect. Um, and I
think by the time I get involved, people, um,
are frustrated and tired and stressed. So I may
not always see the best, uh, of the people that go
in. Um, so I'm looking with
that lens and thinking, how can I lean
in and help in that moment?
Um, you always find people that have a
desire at some point to want to
use, um, their mental capacity and their
gifting to make a difference in a uh, church
service. Um, I think
we see a lot of engineer types, um,
because oftentimes,
uh, the IT information technology
and Av line gets kind of blurred together.
It's like, oh, you know how to work a computer.
>> Paul: That means, you know how to plug something in.
>> Dave King: Exactly.
>> Paul: Maybe know some little bit network, um, connections and stuff.
Yeah.
>> Dave King: And there's a lot of, there definitely some crossover, you know, if a Venn
diagram like their circles are crossing over,
um, a lot of um, signal flow and troubleshooting
skills is common in both areas. But what I
find in the engineer type brain
is very,
um, very logical
in a way that doesn't leave any room for kind of
curveballs coming in. It's like, oh, that's not in my checklist,
I can't do that. Um, so I'm kind of answering
your question by saying what doesn't work?
>> Brian Davis: Yeah, no, that's fine. Would you say?
Because I agree with you, I would say the vast majority
of tech people, volunteer
or otherwise, that I've worked with in the church world, come
from some sort of engineering background. Um,
what I find is, yeah, they are very proficient at
the ones and zeros, you know, and making sure that,
like, or troubleshooting or, you know, all that kind of
stuff. What usually
is lacking is something that I feel
is very important in the tech arts world, and
that's the artistry of it.
>> Dave King: Yeah.
>> Brian Davis: Um, and so I'm just wondering,
like, sort of that, that difference
between, like, just being able to
look at it purely analytically
and the ones who are able to sort of
break out of that world and see it as like,
oh, this is a, ah, like I'm painting
with sound here, you know, or make it sound less cheesy,
sure.
>> Dave King: But no, I think you're spot on, because I've
seen that kind of aha, ah moments. Even
in engineers, especially later in career life, engineers to
where they've gone through life, they've learned
to be humble. Um, and I think somebody
that approaches it in a way of, I have something
to learn here, um, even though, um,
I've been put in this position as the most expert person,
um, having a person that is willing to learn and has a hunger
for that, that, ah, is hungry and that is,
um, kind of have a smart, emotional
iq, um, to be around people,
I think is a home run. And if you have somebody like that,
that is that, you know, um,
hungry, humble, smart, uh, Patrick
Lincioni. Um, um,
Lencioni, uh, however you say his last name.
>> Paul: Lincioni.
>> Dave King: Yeah, yeah, that's how you say, you.
>> Paul: Know, um, like
an italian stereotype.
Really offensive.
>> Brian Davis: Hey, it's melancioni.
>> Dave King: I think somebody with that kind of approach
into anything new.
>> Paul: My brother Luigi.
Sorry, I can't let it go.
>> Dave King: You guys are cracking. Uh,
I think somebody with those, uh, kind of character traits
is a great person to have
behind in the ab tech booth. Um,
and I think to make a blanket statement of
anyone in that booth is less, uh,
of a technical skills qualifier in my book, but more
of a how you approach conflict, uh,
and problems and, uh, interacting
with people. Um, that's who I would put. Cause
I think those tech skills, while some
can, some people take, uh, have more of
an innate ability with them or grow up and, uh, kind
of have their hands in gear and a little more familiarity. Um, but I
think a lot of those skills can be taught over time, especially with the right
person.
>> Paul: Definitely, uh, who would you say is probably the
person who is overlooked the most? Like the kind of
profile of a volunteer who
they just, nobody. Nobody thinks of them as being like, the
tech person, I mean, the engineer, the it person. Everybody kind of
goes like. And they also have. They might like to do that as an,
as a hobby. But there's some people who go like, they
never even think of themselves as this, but
they tend to, you know, get an opportunity
and they shine, you know. Have you seen
people like that?
>> Dave King: 100%, I think. And it kind of pains me to say it, but I think
it's typically, uh, especially in church
world, um, women
are overlooked, uh, for sure. In that role. I
think it's very easy to be like, oh, you're, um,
uh, working kids ministry. Um, or there's a
women's bible study. Um, and I think the other
category is teenagers, um, and the
youth coming in. Um, and I think typically that
falls into
a fear
of somebody touching buttons and
breaking the whole system. And that really is fed
from a fear mindset of, um, gosh,
I don't fully understand this system. So one
wrong button switch or toggle or knob
turn could totally mess up our Sunday morning because we don't know how
to fix it. Um, and so oftentimes those
younger people don't want to be invited or even, um,
I worked at a church where we had, um, a
very retired lady who
just was fantastic at running propresenter and slides.
She had a gift for it. Um, she understood the timing.
She wasn't a musician herself. I think she may be sang in the choir,
but, um, she just had a sense of the timing.
And, um, somebody that
dove headfirst was like, all in. I care so much
about this, I'm doing it right, that I
have the attentiveness to it. Um,
so, yeah, I kind of rambled on, but I think that, um,
both older and younger and female
are often overlooked.
>> Paul: Yeah, I see exactly the same thing.
And, um, I do feel like
there's something for anybody in
ministry. If you recognize that there is someone who has
an inkling of an interest,
and they're maybe a young female or someone,
get them involved, just put them up there. It's
actually nothing wrong. I
think sometimes about different positions
on a Sunday morning and in terms
of how exposed they are and
don't want to put people in high
exposure places. So often
it's front of house engineer
and slides person, you, uh, know, to just
throw them in there and just kind of say, like, hey, go for
it. You know, it can
be a recipe for disaster, but I think not
just for the event, but for them,
because if they, they are afraid of making a
mistake, and if they get into a place they're not having
fun and they're not experiencing some level of
success, they're not going to want to do it again, or it's going to reinforce
that story that I don't know what I'm doing and
all that kind of stuff. So it is a careful thing. It's
not. Nobody is good at something as soon as they
touch the board, right. Um, they
have usually built years of time
making mistakes, trial and error, all that kind of stuff.
>> Dave King: And you could have an all star in the tech world come into a new
ministry and be like, I don't know this service flow. I don't
know this worship team, I don't know this pastor. Um,
even in that scenario, it's like, it's got to be a partnership
with somebody. Uh, even if they're not tech minded, but can
maybe can call the show or can call the service
of, like, standing right next to that person and that
person, you know, maybe an all star in the
tech world, but not know the service, so they need somebody kind of
guiding them through the service. Um, you
never want to put somebody into a
scenario where they're, uh, especially a first time
of suddenly, oh, my goodness,
they made a colossal mistake. And
the dreaded everyone
goosenecking and turning around and look at the av booth of
like, oh, gosh, I can't believe the AV just messed
up the service. Cause you're right, Paul. It's like they'll walk
away. And suddenly, like, I don't want to be a part of this. I mess up, and
I don't deserve to be here, right. So well.
>> Brian Davis: And I feel like that. I mean, there's a lot
that can lead to that feeling and that
attitude. Um, but
it's not helped by the fact that
there is, especially when it comes to the technical
arts. I feel like in churches, there is sort of this
expectation of, uh. I don't want to say
perfection, but, like, I
mean,
it can be very distracting when something goes wrong.
Um, but there's this feeling of,
like, uh, it just ruined the whole
thing. Sometimes just from the
top down, some
feeds back, and the worship leader's on stage in the middle of the song, rolling
his eyes, and the pastor sitting on
the front row and she's the first one
to stare back at the front of house person.
So there's that.
>> Dave King: You're making me feel things right now.
>> Brian Davis: Exactly. Because, you know, that is a real
thing. And so, um, I think there
is that fear
that, again, it can come from a different place.
Like it probably started somewhere else way, way back.
But it's not helped by the fact
that there are a lot of people, a lot of other
people involved in making that service happen
who might not be the most gracious or most
patient people in the world. And
so.
>> Dave King: Or they were just having a bad day that day. And
suddenly, you know,
I can't remember if I've ever heard this said
explicitly, but in some areas it was almost kind
of, um, um, projected or
assume of, like, you mess this up. Like, people's
salvations is on the line.
>> Paul: Yeah, right.
>> Dave King: And at that extreme, it just is pretty
gross.
>> Brian Davis: I still hear people say something to
that effect when I lead at different
churches. Like, there is
this, and I'm sure we've talked about it
before, but like, that pressure that we're
putting on ourselves to, uh.
And it's. It is absolutely nothing but performance
pressure.
>> Dave King: Yeah.
>> Brian Davis: Like, there is absolutely nothing. There's nothing
scriptural or theological about it that says
that anything that has to do with our performance
will impact someone else's. Like someone
else's ability or desire to follow Jesus Christ.
Like that is all completely something that we have
manufactured to make ourselves feel really
important about what we're doing on Sunday morning. You know, like this could
be their.
>> Dave King: One relies on me.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. And that just. It's so.
It's really, uh. I find it to be
incredibly toxic and really, actually, I think,
damaging to, like, to our
churches, I think it's damaging to our psyches. Like, it
just.
>> Paul: And it's got a long, long
history. And it has this
foundations, at least in our country,
that come from this kind of puritanical,
um, work ethic. And we're going
to maybe, I think, comes from
a genuine place that if there was an
undergirding, um, theology that says, you
know, um, that's really motivated
by getting people to heaven and keeping people
out of hell, then there is an inherent
urgency in that. But what's
fascinating is as that theology
developed, that it was developing
alongside this newly developing technology,
as things were becoming,
uh, more dependent on machinery to
make things happen faster and at
a larger scale.
>> Brian Davis: Larger scale, I think is the key term there because I
was, uh, even on my way here, I was thinking about
like, ah, what am I going to ask Dave, that's going to just really
blow his mind. Um, but I was thinking
about where did that.
Where did that marriage really start to happen
on that scale?
At least the picture that comes into my mind are like the Billy Graham.
>> Dave King: Crusades, promise keepers and stuff like that.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. If you're going to fill a stadium full of people,
you better make sure they can hear it. So how are they going to be able to
hear it? Well, we need the biggest sound system we can put together,
and, you know, and then, oh, but we're also going to
have, you know, a band on stage, you know, playing, playing
just as I am while people come forward. And so, like,
now we've got to figure out how to mix a piano into the whole
thing, and, like, you know, so it.
>> Paul: But there's even a technological predecessor of
that, because Billy Graham and
that style of ministry was this
parachurch outside of the church building,
happening in tents, uh, happening in
temporary structures. And as those are
happening often in the midwest and in the
south, they're
including people of ethnicities that were
usually kept out of the building but were
incorporated, and they were
making things up technologically as they went along,
just to.
>> Dave King: Facilitate the space and
adapting and pivoting constantly based on
how many people were in the room or what building they had
to work with.
>> Paul: And they were innovative. They were constantly thinking about new
things. And so that's beautiful.
It's amazing. It's this thing that, uh, the
creativity and the ingenuity of that is very
inspiring. At the same time, it's
growing right alongside of this, um,
desperation. Uh, a desperation that's
kind of like, if we don't get this thing
growing one, maybe our
organization's gonna shrivel and die, or
more people are not going to go to heaven. More people are going to go to hell.
And so that is powerful
juice that moves people.
>> Dave King: Or I would even take it a step further of, like, even in the
leadership position of, oh, maybe
I'm not a, um,
anointed leader in that. Absolutely.
My ministry isn't growing and God isn't
speaking through.
>> Paul: So if we fast forward ahead, we had
another sort of crisis of space
in 2020, and
technology was there, and that sort of the fury
of technology and how to get enough tools in the right place
and the right time, and live streaming exploded.
And now every church, regardless of their
size, from 100 people to, you know,
1000 and up, they're
investing energy, money, equipment,
gear, space in their sanctuary
dedicated to this.
>> Brian Davis: Mhm.
>> Paul: Is it a net positive?
Does it help? Does it hurt I feel
like this is what I'm
wondering.
>> Dave King: Yeah, I'm latched on that word. Or use desperation,
especially with, uh, pandemic happening.
And suddenly, you know, in the span of a couple
weeks, people had to pivot, um, 180
degrees.
>> Paul: Right.
>> Dave King: Um, and, you know, some churches were real well equipped to
kind of, okay, we're already kind of, we're dabbling in this for maybe
once a month service. We did a special online thing. Um,
and other churches were like, in order to
stay connected with our congregation, we have to figure something out, and
we're starting from scratch.
Um, it's.
I don't know, it's at the point now where
I think it's feels, uh, like a bare
minimum for a lot of churches. Like, we.
If we're gonna even do any church plant or a
new church, we have to maybe even start with live
streaming, which is just so different than what
it used to be ten years ago of, like, we're starting
in a home with, you know, three couples.
>> Paul: Yeah.
>> Dave King: Um, and then inviting people into that.
>> Brian Davis: Now we can start in everyone's home.
>> Dave King: Right.
>> Brian Davis: The church is coming from inside.
>> Paul: But you know what, and you know what? There's three
people watching. So it didn't change.
It just happens to be. We spent more money on it.
>> Dave King: And I feel like it's a bare minimum
for churches. And oftentimes where I think
that once churches started doing that during a
pandemic, I don't think they were brave enough
to decide, is this right for us? And actually have
that conversation. It's more like, uh, we're already kind of doing it.
Um, we'd rather just kind of keep
limping along versus have the hard conversation
of, like, is this the best use of our resources? Are we
delivering something that is up to the standards that we want
for our congregation? Um, and, you
know, if we have person x
that really, uh, loves it and, you
know, is one of the three people that streaming, and we know that person
x, um, ties a lot
to the ministry. We're going to keep doing it.
>> Paul: Um, that's mine.
>> Brian Davis: Well, ruined the whole episode. Totally. Well, I think you
also get into, uh, you know,
like, the conversation surrounding,
you know, things like ableism and, you know, like,
yes, that was a. I mean, that was a consideration
for our church when we, we started making
the decision to, like, basically, like, taper
off and eliminate it.
>> Dave King: Completely eliminate livestreaming.
>> Brian Davis: Livestreaming.
>> Dave King: Okay.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. Um, knowing full well
that we did have a handful of people in our
congregation that weren't always able
to make it to um. Um, to our worship service for
health reasons or work schedule. Work
schedule, all that kind of stuff. And so
we, like, we. We said we're shutting this down, but we gave the
caveat. If there's some sort of
circumstance that precludes you from being able
to attend in person, please let us know. I mean, we
kept all the gear. We. We know how to set it all up. We
know how to make it work. We are happy to provide this for you
if that is something that you absolutely need.
Um, you know, what we wanted to get
away from was making it available to everyone
all the time who doesn't need it.
Because we recognize also, like, our
congregation is very transient. They're very,
um, you know, like,
if. Especially once the weather turns nice, if they can go do something
outside, they're gonna go do something outside. We live in Colorado, and so,
yeah, and so it became like, well,
yeah, we're not. We're not at church with our community this morning, and I'm
not, uh. I'm not gonna be one of those people who's like, I'm
gonna make you feel bad. Cause you weren't at church on Sunday.
>> Paul: Like, they are going to hell.
>> Brian Davis: Well, there's that, which is all the more
important anyway.
>> Dave King: Um, but I think that's always been the case where if
people. It's always been the case
typically four weeks in a month, and maybe you miss
one, that's okay.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. And that's basically the decision we had to make is
like, are we okay with. I mean,
it basically was. That was going back to normal for
us, you know, was going back to okay.
Like, we know that, you know,
this weekend, nobody's gonna be here, you know, because everybody's out,
you know, whatever. Like, and we know the
families that do that, you know,
and it's like, you know what?
That's okay. Because, again, like,
their salvation doesn't depend on us.
Um, even the experience that they have in that
room ultimately doesn't depend on us, you
know? So it's like, there's a lot
of. We did a lot of soul searching in that time of, like,
okay, how much are we going to,
like, we're not going to harp on people to come
back once we're back in person
services. We're going to let people make that decision on their
own. But we did make that decision,
but we're not necessarily going to make it easier for
them to not be here.
>> Dave King: That's just so refreshing to hear, because I think I haven't
had first hand experience where worked
or been a part of a church that did go through that thought
process of deciding, hey, we did this during
the pandemic. It met a need because
people had to stay in their homes. Um, and
now we're reevaluating. It's like that constant kind of,
hey, it's a new week. Let's reevaluate what's best for our
ministry. Um, so I guess the question I have for you, Brian, is like,
did you consider even doing a not
livestream, but, ah, pre recorded
sermon or even if it was just sermon?
>> Brian Davis: No, we never went down the road of pre
recording and stuff. Um, I mean, we. The
first, the first few weeks,
um, when we had to go to live stream, I think we took
one full week off. Um, after the
lockdown, we just told everybody, like, we don't know how we're
going to do this.
>> Dave King: We'll figure it out.
>> Brian Davis: But, yeah, it takes a week to figure it out. Um,
but then, like, that first week that we were back, we
just. We sent everybody in our church a zoom link.
>> Dave King: Yeah, it worked.
>> Brian Davis: Uh, and, you know. Cause we didn't have, you know,
we didn't have our little atem mini, you know, we didn't have any of that. We
didn't have cameras, you know, uh, I think we had a, uh,
like, we had one old video camera
for baptisms, you know, like, so we didn't
have cameras. We didn't have any of the stuff. We didn't have any of the infrastructure that
we needed. So we were like, what do we have? Um,
our lead pastor has. He's got a little,
like, office in his, like,
outside his home. I've got a little project studio outside my
home. So we're like, okay, why don't you just. You go in
your studio, you lead a few songs,
I'll be in my studio, and I'll do a, you know, and we'll
keep it short. Like, I don't think we went over 45 minutes any,
any of those weeks.
>> Dave King: But it kept people connected.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. And I mean, the sound quality was bad, you know,
all that kind of stuff. But those first, especially those first, like, three weeks
that we were on Zoom, it was almost.
It was emotional to see how people
were.
>> Paul: Yeah.
>> Brian Davis: Um, not only the desire to connect, but, like,
the fact that they were connecting.
>> Dave King: Yeah.
>> Brian Davis: And, ah, but, but I'm not. I don't say
that in like a, uh, I'm not, like, romanticizing it. I would never want
to go back to that.
>> Dave King: See, and I'm the opposite.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah.
>> Dave King: And in a way, like, two things like, I think, you know,
you're sharing those stories of the
emotional and what I loved
best about the pandemic. And it's horrible. I mean,
so many people were impacted, deaths,
uh, sickness. It was horrible. Let's get that out
there, right?
>> Brian Davis: Um.
>> Dave King: I was so thankful
for how I saw, at least in my
environment, my community, my perspective of how much
better people treated each other in those moments.
>> Paul: I saw that, too.
>> Dave King: And, man, that just. I remember
holding that and treasuring that. Um, and I'm getting
emotional now, thinking, gosh, it's just
like when the entire world is just
rocked. Um, this is where we're. This
is where we're brought to. To this space of what we're
doing, of like, everyone's kind of, um,
more on equal footing almost, because all these.
>> Paul: Happening to all of them.
>> Dave King: Yes, exactly. So there was that singularity
and that commonality between everyone that
I think gave, um, even common
vocabulary to use or common experience where people
bonded over that, and I loved it. So
there's some times where, especially if I'm having a bad day, I'm like,
um, man, I never, I don't wish for any kind of global
pandemic, but I love this part of it
happening and seeing what people.
>> Brian Davis: Well, and then everything opened back up and people
started losing.
>> Dave King: The other thing is, I have to say, is
Skype really dropped the bag on this because you even said,
zoom. Skype was already in place, but Zoom
suddenly, and now it's like, it's like Kleenex,
where you say, I'm gonna zoom.
>> Paul: You. I'm m gonna zoom. Yeah, yeah. You
mentioned something, and you use this word, and I think it was
almost this sort of freudian slip, but it was so perfect, because
you're talking about this moment of singularity,
and where my mind jumps to is the
singularity.
>> Dave King: Did I say the wrong word?
>> Brian Davis: No, I'm sure you said it right.
>> Paul: But you said the right thing. But I.
>> Brian Davis: You said you're gonna send Paul on a bunny trail.
>> Paul: No, no, no, I want to keep it, Paul.
But singularity is the other word that
scientists use for the big bang.
>> Dave King: Oh, interesting, right?
>> Paul: And that's what happens when
a star dies or whatever. It compresses
everything to such a point that there's
nowhere to go. And a singularity happens and there's such
a release of energy that that's how
a universe is made. And what I
think is happened in a moment like
that that is described in this.
Everybody was all in the same place. It was
happening globally, everybody. It was happening to
everybody. And we, at
least in my communities, I know it's
not exactly the way it was for everybody,
but we saw people behaving well,
saw people connecting. Um,
and you know, what technology gave us that
gave us the ability to do that. Now it's
almost.
>> Dave King: People were sharing screenshots of the zoom
room, the Brady bunch. Nine
tiles of, like, this is our team.
>> Paul: Like, I had to hold in tension the fact that I could
do this, like a Zoom Christmas with my folks.
But I also went to a Zoom funeral,
which was horrifying, bizarre,
and for a dear friend, Sana's funeral.
>> Dave King: Oh, that was so hard.
>> Paul: And that was, I will never want to do that
again. And that was also. It was also my friends
Brandon and Steven. When they got married, they got married on Zoom.
And I still am sad that
I couldn't be there in person, but glad that
I could be there on Zoom, at least.
And so what happens then,
after a singularity is life happens and things
get complex.
>> Dave King: A release of energy and newness happens, for sure.
>> Paul: So new things begin to
break down and evolve.
And we are in these sort of inflection points.
And there's a lot. There was a lot of, um,
comparison last year when Oppenheimer came
out between Oppenheimer and AI and all this sort of
stuff. And AI is just the newest development of
this, because anytime there's a burst of technology,
there is a burst of complexity in the way people have
to deal with it. And I'm wondering
how you guys see that shifting. The way
we think about worship, the way we think about God
in a space where now, uh,
technology is our third arm. You know, it's the other
way we're interacting with stuff. I mean,
go, sorry, I didn't mean to take it that way.
>> Dave King: And I loved how I said a random word and you made me
sound like I was. I said the perfect word and had
this all packaged up to, I just.
>> Paul: Love that you drowned. But that was
perfect.
>> Brian Davis: It was a singularity. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to light the
cigarette and talk about singularity.
>> Paul: Just think.
>> Dave King: I think. And, you know, I, um,
maybe by choice, been tried to
be blissfully ignorant about AI. Um,
you know, working at the art museum now, it's. Especially
in the art world, AI is kind of, um,
a polarizing topic. M because it's very
much a, um. Yeah, I mean, it's just polarizing,
or people think it's, you know, it's not too true art
or even, um, some.
>> Paul: People are really into it. And some people are like, this is the
end of civilization.
>> Dave King: Exactly. The end of the world. Um, I have
a friend named Peter. Um, I hope he listens to
this, where he always would joke and
say, um, I welcome the
advancement of technology and our cyber overlords,
however they may come. The chip implanted
in my brain, whatever that looks like. Um,
and he says it really loud in the moment. In case
of any robots or listening to.
>> Brian Davis: That's right. You got to make sure that they hear.
Um.
>> Dave King: There's so much unknown about AI and any
initial kind of, not
necessarily research, because I'm not
proactive in seeking anything, but then kind of comes across
my email or Reddit feed or Facebook feed
or, um, any kind of websites. It very much seems
to highlight that the AI version that we're
seeing is, um, kind of
like kid gloves. And I think, and
I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any means, but I think
even, um, um,
OpenAI and even, uh,
other AI's have been described
as, hey, we're giving you this version.
Um, but there's two other versions, three other
versions, five other versions that, um, are behind
the curtain kind of thing. Um,
it's like we don't know what we don't know. And it's just
like, my opinion isn't gonna really
change the course of things, I think. So I'm just
along for the ride at this point.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. I'm always
wary of
use trying
to utilize something before we fully understand it,
you know, which I understand. Like, I get it. Like, that's the way
that the world works.
>> Paul: Like a little jurassic park.
>> Dave King: So, uh, funny, I saw that meme today about something else.
Yeah. Regarding the technology, church
world is funny.
>> Brian Davis: And I just, I mean, it's funny to say, but
like, that, that might be a. Maybe
a good warning, um,
because I don't know, like, and we've
had this discussion a little bit, you and I. I
wouldn't say that I'm necessarily terrified of
AI. I'm terrified of what I think it could
possibly do. And I'm not talking about, like, the
matrix or Terminator robot robots.
>> Paul: Yeah, that's not, I mean, the real scare is.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. It's not that
what, what we're going to do
with each other. And again, you brought up
Oppenheimer.
>> Paul: Yeah.
>> Brian Davis: I feel like it is very similar.
>> Paul: Interesting.
>> Brian Davis: They, they created this thing.
They understood it mathematically. Ah, they
understood, you know, I guess in AI terms,
like, yeah, we understand how to write the code. Uh, we understand
how to program it and make it do this thing. That, that we want it
to do, but then it, it kind of does
its own thing, you know, similar to
nuclear energy. Like, there's, there's not a whole lot. I mean,
there are things you can do to contain it and control it,
but we have a whole lot of examples of how
we have failed to contain it and control it.
>> Dave King: Well, even Oppenheimer was very much like, we're going to push a button and
we think this is going to happen.
>> Brian Davis: Right.
>> Dave King: But we don't know.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah, we might ignite the whole atmosphere.
>> Dave King: Exactly.
>> Brian Davis: Very much into the world, you know?
>> Dave King: Exactly, exactly.
>> Paul: Um, and they kept going. It's just
mind blowing.
>> Dave King: Well, it's like at the time, you know, we weren't there. We weren't
with world war crisis. It's like, what's
happening? The entire mental perspective
in that moment. It's like. Cause when I saw that movie, I'm like, man,
how could anybody, like you said, keep
going in this sense? But I think it was such
a, um.
Everyone was on the same page of, like, the world
is ending and we're trying to stop the world ending.
>> Brian Davis: Mhm.
>> Dave King: But we could also end the world by trying to not.
>> Paul: This is the complexity that I'm talking about. It's like
in a race to try and save
the world. We end the world.
>> Dave King: Yep. And that's our
podcast, sponsored by
Zoom.
>> Brian Davis: Thank you for listening.
>> Paul: But what's fascinating is that.
>> Brian Davis: Brought to you by Oppenheimer.
>> Paul: Yeah.
>> Brian Davis: Now streaming on Amazon.
>> Dave King: Sorry, Paul.
>> Paul: No, no, no. I hadn't heard this before, but I don't even. I'm going
to butcher the reference, uh, because there's a
podcast that I listened to on these two
guys talking about AI
policy and stuff like that, and they had this guy who is a
PhD in mythology about it, and I hadn't
heard anyone actually say this from
an outsider point of view, like, not a culture.
>> Dave King: I'm still trying to rationalize that you can get a PhD in mythology.
>> Paul: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's fascinating.
>> Brian Davis: Wow.
>> Paul: Um, but, um, how
he articulates that this
issue is a spiritual issue.
>> Dave King: Interesting.
>> Paul: It is. And it's not like the person you expect to say
it, but he's saying, like, hey, listen,
everyone, knowledge is different than wisdom.
Like, come on, that's what, like, that's
Jesus's line. Like, it's over
and over, but it's, it's. And when he's
saying, he's saying, listen, the
leaders of these AI groups, the
big three, you have meta, uh, you have
OpenAI, you have Google, we're
developing these things, the people at the top
have a spiritual philosophy and
determinism that they, uh, believe
in. That is, we want to meet
this higher intelligence, and we want to
bring it into life so that we can
meet it. And if that means humanity ends, so we
can meet this, we can meet God
through, through intelligence.
>> Dave King: Do you think they're saying we want to meet it or we want to create
it?
>> Paul: It's both. Okay. I think it's, we want to
meet the God that we create through
intelligence.
>> Dave King: Interesting.
>> Paul: And it's a little bit like, uh, um, you know,
our robot overlords, you know, we kind of grant
you, there is this death drive thing that
triggers our own,
is a little bit curious about our own destruction.
Yeah. And maybe there's
even that. You see, that subtly in the Oppenheimer
thing is like, we can touch this
level of power and
we can't not touch it. And
it's really like, there is this
fruit on the tree that I said, he said I
should not touch. I have to touch
it. You said I can't touch it. So now you have,
uh.
>> Brian Davis: I'm gonna touch it, but now I
have to.
>> Paul: I have to touch it.
>> Brian Davis: You said not touch it.
>> Paul: I didn't even know where that tree was.
>> Brian Davis: I know, but now I'm just looking at it. I'm looking for
it every day, and I can't stop looking. Yeah, it's like,
do you think we.
>> Dave King: You know, to use Oppenheimer?
>> Brian Davis: Hey, Willis, the question, sir.
>> Dave King: Hey, never call me again when you.
>> Brian Davis: Need to take advice.
>> Dave King: That's hilarious. You think when
sticking with the Oppenheimer reference in that
they kept going? They kept going even though there was so much
unknowns and so much fear of, gosh, we
could ignite the atmosphere and destroy the world.
Um, using the comparison with AI,
where in Oppenheimer's sense, I think it
was a, um, kind of the,
either the. Our enemies are
gonna figure it out or we're gonna figure it out and whoever figured out
first kind of has a little more control. Yeah.
Um, do you think that's the same with AI now?
>> Paul: 100% absolutely.
>> Dave King: That's the same thing about connecting those dots. So I'm
curious to see how you're connecting them.
>> Paul: Absolutely. And if, and if I can hearken back
to our previous conversation.
Did I use the right.
>> Brian Davis: You did.
>> Paul: Okay.
>> Brian Davis: You did.
>> Paul: I used the right word. English word, hearken back to the
idea of the
desperation that churches have to save
souls. And if you can create,
um, a narrative that says if we don't do it, the
enemy is going to do it first.
>> Dave King: Oh, dang it, Paul.
>> Brian Davis: He does that all the time.
>> Paul: Then you can develop, then you have
a moral obligation to
develop this technology at a pace
that blank
check. Never, never look
back growth at any cost.
>> Dave King: We have to do this.
>> Paul: We have to do it.
>> Dave King: Even if it means the same logic.
>> Paul: Because it's like, then the Germans will develop the
nuke. Now it's like, if we don't do it, China's going to
develop AI. And what if China does? And if China does
it, then we're all screwed. And I'm like, wow,
this same story keeps
getting played.
>> Dave King: Is this the line where it says history repeats itself?
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I think
to try to steer it back to the use of technology in church,
I think that became sort of the
rationalization for sort of its overuse
in churches is that,
I mean, I've actually heard this argument used before
is, well, like,
people aren't coming to church because
they can go to red rocks or they can go to
the bluebird, or they can go to the Pepsi center and see a
concert that's way better than anything that we're doing in church.
Mhm. So it became this
competition. They got to it first.
So now we have to try to do it better and bigger
and brighter and louder.
>> Dave King: Even at the point of some churches starting out with
a secular song to bring people in. Right.
>> Brian Davis: I don't know what you're referring to. Uh huh.
>> Dave King: I've never heard of in a room.
>> Brian Davis: Do you never had to do that?
>> Paul: I've never done a cover song in my life.
>> Brian Davis: Uh-huh yeah, but.
>> Dave King: It'S easy.
>> Brian Davis: It's the same, I mean, that it
all follows that same rationale of, like, if we
don't get them, somebody else is going to.
>> Dave King: It's competition.
>> Brian Davis: We have to use. We have to use every tool that
the world uses. And I hate using those,
those binary terms, the church versus the
world. But that's the way that that
conversation. Typically, we have to use the tools that the,
that the world is using to reach,
to reach the lost and make sure that we save them
from eternity in hell. And because we have
couched it in that way, it's all worth it. Like the
amount of money, the amount of time, the amount of energy that's
put into it, the, uh, the amount of selling your
soul, it's all worth it because you,
you. We made heaven. We hate. We made heaven
more crowded, you know, as a result
of doing this.
>> Paul: I don't want to go to a crowded heaven. I'm just kind of
like, it smells already. Too bad.
>> Brian Davis: I don't even want to go to a crowded anywhere.
Don't tell me that heaven's going to be crowded. I'm
not going to want, uh, to go tell a bunch of
introverts like, oh, we want to make heaven crowded.
>> Paul: Pass. How about it's like
that, Nick? Oh, who is that?
>> Brian Davis: I've heard that. I've heard that Satan has a special room prepared for
me. If I get my own room in hell, I'll take it
over.
>> Paul: Who's that? Tennessee stand up comedian Nate
Bergotte. He was talking about, like, how you
deal, um, with parties as you age. It's like in your twenties
and people, uh, like, do you want to go to this party? And they're like, yes,
I'm there. In your thirties, you're asking, like, who's
gonna be there? And then 40 is just like, not gonna
go. Actually, I'm angry that you asked.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah, how dare you?
>> Dave King: It doesn't start till 09:00 p.m. no.
>> Brian Davis: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Uh, if something
starts, we scheduled to record this at 730 and I was
like.
>> Paul: I might be falling asleep.
>> Brian Davis: Uh, now, um, so I
find it interesting that because I only know this because I
keep getting the emails from Sweetwater.
>> Dave King: Um, but like, this sponsor or the
podcast is sponsored by Sweetwater and their.
>> Paul: Bit o honey candies that come in every box.
>> Brian Davis: That's right. Um. Oh, God, it's. I wish they.
Never mind. I could talk about that for a minute. But, um.
>> Dave King: Ed is my sweet water guy.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah.
>> Dave King: Uh.
>> Brian Davis: Ah, Riley. Riley Konaman is mine. Shout out to Riley. If
you're listening to that, you're not listening to this. Um,
but, um, like, Nam is happening right now,
you know? Um, and I know that
that can, like, do you feel like stuff like
that? Like, places like Sweetwater, which do
they do a lot of work with churches. Um,
do you feel like.
>> Dave King: I think they're faith based also with
ownership.
>> Paul: Yeah.
>> Brian Davis: Um, how
much does that, like, they're promoting that and
I get it. Like, they've got a product to sell. Capitalism, I
understand it, but
they're going to. I get a daily update
from. Here's the latest thing that came out at Nam.
How much is that driving
this sort of
technological boom in churches?
And, like, who
is. I don't wanna say who's
responsible, but who would you say
is sort of driving that bus
toward our technological oblivion? Is it, uh,
the worship leaders who are like, I want all the coolest
toys? Is it the TD's who are
like, I wanna use all the coolest toys. Is it the
leadership who's like, they're scared because we might
lose people to hell if we don't put on, if we don't use the
coolest toys? Who would you say is sort of driving that
bus?
>> Paul: Yes.
>> Dave King: Um, to all the above, or is it society?
Uh, capitalism?
I think it's really, it's a,
it depends, honestly, on the ministry. I think there definitely is
a large group of fear being left
behind, of a fear of.
Oh, gosh. Um, you know, Hillsong is doing
this, so we have to, and we need
to, um, figure out exactly what cameras are
using, and we need to use them. What soundboard they're using because that's what makes
it sound good. Um, we need to do the same songs.
Oh, what acoustic guitar is that person playing? Because we
need that acoustic guitar. Um, how many vocalists are they
using? Um, and, um,
it's a lack of creativity, honestly. And it's a lack of
personal identity, of thinking, hey, this is our
ministry. These are our resources. This is where, what we're good
at. This is our mission and vision of where we want to go
to. Let's figure out something that we want to go in that
direction. What I see more often is more
a, this is what XYZ are doing.
Let's cookie cutter copy paste. And, and,
you know, six months after you do that, it's like it's not
working. What's wrong? What are we, you know,
and then they're looking to figure out, uh, who's to blame for
that. Is it the gear? Is it the volunteers? Is it the,
the sermon teaching? Is it the words they use?
This the pastor or the teacher wanted
to use in the moment? Um, and then it's
just a vicious cycle. It's kind
of a bummer.
>> Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the.
I can't think of another word for it. So it's a
supernova singularity.
It's right. There's a word,
mimetic contagion. Good
lord.
>> Dave King: Can you say that slower for me? Why,
um. Couldn't he heard his word before?
>> Paul: He has to
put up with this.
>> Brian Davis: Shit all the time. I, uh, think you're making
stuff up.
>> Dave King: No, he could, and I would believe it.
>> Paul: Oh, that's a, that's a, like a
mimetic, uh, uh, contagion is
what's like when societies
mimic each other and people mimic each
other.
>> Dave King: Yes, that's true.
>> Paul: It builds on itself. So
you mimic what you see and then what you,
what are you, what is seeing you, is
mimicking you. So it's a feedback loop.
>> Dave King: Yes. And you're looking at the other person next to you, like with the
emperor's new clothes. Like, oh, yeah, everything's good, right? Yeah.
>> Paul: And you just don't.
>> Dave King: Same thing with rap music or Spider.
>> Brian Davis: Man meme where three Spider man pointing
at each other, you know, that's it. That's what you mean by
when memes go viral. Yeah, and
you. And it's contagious.
>> Paul: Yeah, and that. But it, but it works on a
societal level so that you start to
go like, who's responsible for this? And the
answer is yes. Yeah, you
are. I am. And by, by sharing
it, by transmitting it in some way,
that's the water we're all swimming
in.
>> Dave King: You know, the contaminated, polluted,
contaminated, polluted water.
>> Brian Davis: Or you just kind of like it. There's
fine, there's another meme.
>> Paul: I'm peeing microplastics these days. So, I
mean, that's, uh, I, ah, didn't mean it
to go that direction. I'll probably edit that out.
>> Brian Davis: No, no, we're gonna keep it in.
>> Paul: But it's like, uh,
it's to that level that I just don't know what else
to, it's like there was that
little battle in my mind where I was like, do I say memetic
to contain. I'm m glad you did.
>> Dave King: To try to inject that in the conversations in my picture.
>> Paul: Use that in a sentence, everyone.
>> Brian Davis: I am weak. M but I'm going to use it. You're like
calling sick to work. I think I got that
memetic contagion that's going around. Sorry, I
can't lead worship on Sunday.
>> Paul: Memetic contagion.
>> Brian Davis: We got a memetic contagion.
>> Dave King: We don't know where it started from.
>> Brian Davis: Well, if you'll excuse me, I gotta go drop
another singularity.
Uh, wow.
>> Paul: We were then the rabbit hole.
>> Brian Davis: We did, and it was awesome. Um, what
I take from all this is that, um,
if you decide to go ahead and get that led
wall for your church, you're going to bring about the end
of this. Um, if I can take anything from this
podcast. That's right. Um, Dave, could you
leave us with a little. I know we did this the last time you were on,
and we try to do this every once in a while. What
are you, what are you hopeful for when it comes
to the usage of technology
or even just the, the state of the
church in general? Like what, what is bringing you
hope these days when you look at the church.
>> Dave King: What do I hope for? What is bringing me hope?
>> Brian Davis: Both.
>> Paul: Oh, yeah, or either. There's a. There's a great. You've
just created a question for yourself.
>> Dave King: I mean, he asked me, what is bringing you hope?
>> Brian Davis: You've created the singular.
That word. Wrong. Dang it.
>> Dave King: I, um, think that what I hope for is, um,
people leaning into vulnerability and treating each
other better. Always, um, I think we can
always, uh, improve on that. I think,
um, when people more seek
to understand rather than being understood, um,
things happen, uh, and it's beautiful,
um, and again, just speaking on
vulnerability, it's like vulnerability, um,
brews connection with people, um,
and, um,
invites other people to be vulnerable. I think it's very
much all these people are
standing in the room of, we're all thinking the same thing,
but it just takes that first person to say it
to be like, oh, yeah, I feel the same thing.
Um, so with the vulnerability, I think there's a
little bit of boldness, um, that willingness to
be vulnerable and expose, uh,
in the hopes of bringing connections with people.
Um, what brings me hope is,
um, not much. Uh, I
think it's just, uh, the season I'm in now
is just a tough season. I
think it's a few years past
the pandemic. And, um,
it's just people are figuring things out still. I
think there's a. And we're going into
a political season, too, which
is. Just brings up a worse in people, I think,
which is just a bummer all around. I
think both the best thing and
the worst thing for me, um, kind of
reflecting is Facebook memories and
seeing things. Four years ago, this, what I was
posting, um, and some of that is
very much like I was so optimistic or
so leaning into, um, just giving people space
to speak, uh, their experience.
Um, whereas now I'm just like, you know,
uh, I don't really have space for your experience right now. Um,
so I don't know if that answered your question.
Um, it is, yeah.
>> Brian Davis: I think that's a. I hope, you
know, you're not alone in feeling those things.
>> Dave King: Like, is it because I just was vulnerable in speaking it? And
that's it to where you named it?
>> Paul: I mean, I think that was absolutely a beautiful
example of it that,
like you, we hold
these paradoxes, right? That you have these.
I have this hope for something else. I have to hope because I'm
alive, you know? Um,
but also recognize that, um,
it does not come easy for me. It does not come
easy, um, and
I'm going to acknowledge it I'm going to be honest about what's
happening right now, actually, as a
demonstration of hope, I think.
>> Dave King: Yeah.
>> Paul: Um, and so it
couldn't have been better.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, the fact that you're willing to
show up here and talk about these things I think
is a great indication that
you haven't given up.
>> Dave King: So, uh, I thought I was getting paid.
>> Paul: Oh, this is real
awkward.
>> Brian Davis: Oh, you're.
>> Paul: Oh, he's, I think he's really,
um.
>> Brian Davis: See what I did there?
>> Paul: I combined them into one super
metaphor.
>> Brian Davis: Dave, thank you so much. Awesome as
always. And uh, appreciate your time
and your wisdom and your
humor. So, uh, yeah,
this was a blast. Yeah. Well, we'll do it
again in two years.
>> Dave King: Yeah, no, always, um, just love spending time with
you guys. Love talking, um, real life and being
vulnerable and connecting, um, and thankful
for the community that we have.
>> Paul: Definitely.
>> Brian Davis: Oh, good stuff from
fantastic.
>> Paul: Um, it was an amazing conversation and uh, we
can't help but just laugh the whole time when we're just
kind of together. We just have this thing when
we're, when we're together. So it's, it's a lot of fun to have
conversations with Dave.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, if
you uh, you know, if you're, you're listening to this and
you're like, hey, I think my church could use a little help
with uh, with my,
with my, with our technology. Um, please,
please do reach out. You can go to torncurtainarts.org,
um, and uh, and contact us. Reach out to us through the
website. We um, would love to
see how we could help. Um, uh,
but not just with your tech stuff. Um, we also
offer uh, coaching and consultation
for ah, a variety of things
in history. Um, and uh,
we'd love to be able to reach out. And who knows, maybe we'll even
send Dave over to you.
>> Paul: Well, Dave does this great thing when he sort
of goes into a church. It's really
a lot of times it's smaller churches who, maybe they
had enough budget to buy some gear.
Um, but then the second
ingredient, uh, of that is when you get the gear, do you have the people
to operate it? Because it's not going to do you any good if
you're like somebody uh, doesn't really know how to mix
well, doesn't know how to make these settings work.
Compressors or limiters and all the
sort of different things. And then when it comes to even
broadcasting and then just thinking I can get, I can
just connect my camera to a, to the um, sound board
and we're good, right? And then they watch it online
and they're like, oh, this is garbage. Why does it
not, you know, why is the only mic we can
hear is that one lady singing and
not the band or anything like that? Well,
that's exactly the kind of thing Dave likes to help
teams with. Um, and it's not so that
we can, you know, find this sort of
sustaining, you know, revenue
stream for torn curtain. We come in for a short
period of time, usually it's probably like
anywhere between one to three months so that we can get
the team up and running and a system so that
volunteers are empowered to not only recruit new
volunteers, but to run it themselves. And that's
the main value, um, for small churches
is being volunteer driven. So, um, yeah, let
us know how we can help. And we would love, love, love
to support and love on your,
your people.
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. Yeah. I think it, uh, it's
worth saying, um, um, I know we've said it before,
but, um. And maybe, maybe it's starting to come across
as defensive. I don't want it to, but, uh,
I just. I want to point out, like, we are not.
We're not anti technology, we're not anti big
church. Um, we're not, we're not against
any of those things. I mean, we, we love technology. We
are recording this currently
with, you know, online
using, you know, nice microphones and, and,
uh, uh, you know, all this kind of stuff. Like, we, like, we love
technology. We just don't ever want it to
be the main thing. Like, we want to keep the
main things, the main things and, and help
churches and worship leaders discover how to
do the best with what you have, where you
are. So, um. Um. So, yeah, that's
really the heartbeat behind conversations like this is not
to. Not to rag on the way anybody's doing it.
Uh, it's fun every once in a while to poke fun
at the, at the big box stores, you
know? Um, but, but yeah, at the
end of the day, just, um, do. Do the best
with what you have, where you are, and, um,
don't let. Don't let your whole service or
your whole ministry be ruled or
run or live and die by the technology that
you use so well.
>> Paul: And in many ways, large churches have an
even bigger responsibility and a more
nuanced decision making that they have to deal with
that small churches don't have to deal with. And
everybody takes aim at them because they're large, they have a lot of
people coming and they're spending a lot of money.
And so it is a lot
trickier for staffs and leadership to know
how to use that well, especially if they've made
and, uh, establish some expectations about
what people get when they go online or what they go
to. Um, in a worship service,
the margin for error is a lot smaller, and
so they do have to steward that
differently. Um, so we recognize that.
But just like Brian was saying,
um, I do think every time
we engage in a worship service, we are using
technology. Every time. Even if you don't have a
screen, even if you don't have microphones, you
know, if you have a hymnal, if you have a
chair, you are using technology
in some level to communicate.
Um, and that's the conversation I feel
like we should have. It's approaching that with much more
of a humility and an awareness
that, um, we use it. And that's kind
of what we were kind of getting into a little bit into that
conversation we were talking about, you know,
how does this. How does this technology
facilitate things like community,
spiritual growth, transformation?
>> Brian Davis: Yep, absolutely, absolutely.
And. And, yeah, that. That's
the. Yeah, again, one of
those things that I think Dave is just so good at
highlighting, um, because he's so focused
on, on the people side of it. So. Yeah,
uh, yeah, so, yeah. Well,
uh, want to thank you, uh, for
listening. Um, subscribe
to, uh, the podcast wherever you listen to
it. Tell your friends, tell your
enemies. Um, let the
world know that chasing Sunday is out there.
Uh, we want to help worship leaders, and we want to help
churches get off that ministry treadmill.
Uh, so keep listening. Spread,
uh, the word. Uh, and, yeah,
uh, we'll let Danny take care of all the credits,
um, and let you know how to get a hold of us.
>> Paul: Chasing Sunday is a production of torn curtain
arts and distributed by resonate media.
Your hosts are Brian Davis and Paul Romag
Levitt, with editing and mixing by Danny
Burton. Torn Curtain Arts is a
501 nonprofit organization,
and your tax deductible gifts make our work
possible. For more information about
TCA and to partner with us in our ongoing
work, visit
torncurtainarts.org.
j Sing Sunday,
>> Brian Davis: uh.