068 | Felice Capasso | The Power of Liquid-driven Messaging | Sesto Senso Spirits Academy

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 68 of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, host Chris Maffeo talks to Felice Capasso, Diageo WorldClass winner of Norway 2024 and WSET 2 &3 Spirits Educator.

They explore compelling storytelling and strategies for brand building in a crowded market. The discussion covers the importance of having a clear message in packaging, brand advocacy training, and maintaining consistency across all marketplace touchpoints.

Felice shares his insights from both the brand side and bartender’s perspective, emphasizing the need for clear and expressive communication in the spirits industry.

The episode touches on balancing brand identity with creative freedom, offering examples of successful brand strategies and the importance of education within the industry.

00:00 Introduction to Episode 68

00:51 Meeting Felice Capasso

02:38 Felice's Journey and Background

05:04 Industry Insights and Brand Building

08:38 The Role of Expressiveness in Spirits

15:28 Managing Consumer Expectations

21:48 Brand Brainwash in the Spirits Industry

22:49 The Importance of Blind Tastings

24:24 Understanding Market Positioning

27:01 Explaining Product Characteristics

29:22 Creating Clear Brand Identities

35:27 Recruiting New Consumers

41:10 Distillation Myths and Realities

44:43 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

About The Host: ⁠Chris Maffeo⁠

About The Guest: ⁠Felice Capasso

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Felice Capasso

Global Winner Diageo World Class 2025 | WSET Level 3 Spirits Educator

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Maffeo.
In episode 68, I speak to

Felicia Capasso, the agile world
class winner of Norway 2024 and

WSCT two and three Spirits
educator.

We dive into the power of
effective storytelling and

strategies for successful brand
building in a crowded market.

The episode also covers how to
have a clear message in

packaging, brand advocacy,
training and in all the touch

points in the marketplace.
I hope you will enjoy our chat.

One small ask that means a lot
to me.

If you enjoy this podcast, take
the time to leave a review on

Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
You will also find a detailed

transcript of the episode on
mafiadrinks.com where it gets

pre released 24 hours before
other platforms.

Ciao Felicia, welcome to the My
for Drinks podcast.

How you doing?
Ciao, Chris.

Very good, very good.
Thank you for having me.

How are you?
I'm good, I'm good.

And it's a great honor to have
you because we've been following

each other for, I don't know, a
couple of years on Instagram and

LinkedIn.
And I was watching and listening

to your videos.
And then finally at the Mirror

Hospitality Expo, we saw that we
were both on the speaker's list.

And then we actually realized
that where my family comes from.

So the Mafiao that gives the
name to the podcast is actually

coming from the same region as
you.

So we felt even more of a
connection, not only Italian,

but even from a 50 kilometers
radius from where our origins

are.
It's a small word, man.

It's a small word.
But you need, you need to know

that the only reason I started
making videos years ago was that

so one day I could meet you.
That was the only reason why I

started making videos.
When when I started making

videos, I was like, I'm going to
make a lot of Instagram videos.

I'm going to make them
educational.

I'm going to make them about
spirits.

So one day I can meet this guy.
Any any any type.

I love I love it.
I love it.

You're a you're a you're a funny
guy.

You're a funny guy.
But now let's let's dive in

because you have a very
interesting profile because you

are the world class winner of
Norway of 2024.

So that was just announced a
couple of weeks ago.

And I, I didn't know that you
were even participating.

And I saw the photos and and
there was a there was a great

surprise and so.
Somebody kidnapped me and then I

found myself in the middle of
the competition.

All of a sudden I was like, OK,
then I'm going to perform.

No, and you are, I mean, tell us
what you do, buddy.

You have a bartender background
and it's, it gives a lot of nice

interesting perspectives of, you
know, for our listeners because

you're not from the brand side,
but you are more from behind the

bar and, and behind the desk, so
to so to say.

Yeah, so basically I've been
working from both sides.

Actually, I've been working with
brands as well.

I was working with a Norwegian
brand as a global BA for 3 1/2

years.
I also come from a bar

background and I'm also spirits
educator.

Now I have a school in Oslo
where I teach WSCT courses,

spirits courses.
It's an interesting background

because he gave me the
opportunity to look at this

industry from different
perspectives, from the

perspective of a bartender who
has to talk to brands, you know,

and write deals in order to, you
know, create a menu and, and

organize events and so on and so
forth.

But also, you know, it gave me
the opportunity to work with

brands directly, gave me the
opportunity to look at, you

know, this industry from a
different perspective, which is

the prospective of a brand,
right?

And and that's where you learn
about budgetings and

distribution and a million other
things.

This is like an interesting one
that we were discussing.

I remember we went to an after
party with Alex Oziel.

He is the founder of Novidani
Vernos.

And we sneaked in this after
party on Bar Convent two years

ago.
And then it was like full of

bartenders.
And then they were like industry

people from the brand side of
things.

And then we looked at each other
and we said these kind of

parties are the parties in which
you realize that the drinks

industry and the hospitality
industry are not exactly the

same industry.
You know, they are part of the

same ecosystem, but they are
actually two separate, very

distinct industries that have in
common the glass, the bottle,

the bar, you know, and they try
to speak to each other.

So it our role and I, you know,
my role as well.

And your role is exactly to be
able to translate the messages.

And like, it's the same
language, but it's different

dialects, you know, and it's
different lengths and, and you

often misunderstand each other.
You know, like I see a brand

ambassador, brand manager going
to speak to a bartender and they

they have no idea what each
other is talking about, even

though they're speaking about
exactly the same bottle and

exactly the same cocktail.
Yeah.

So I I have a theory about that.
Would you like to hear it?

Absolutely.
I started developing this theory

some years ago and and I think
that pretty much sums up the

situation we are in at the
moment, especially when it comes

to the approach some brands
have.

So I, I was talking to a very
high profile bartender, Italian

from the South, and we were
talking about the fact that

many, many brand
representatives, they all sound

the same whenever they go and
you know, and approach new

clients whenever they go and do
a tasting to, to a bar, for

example, they, they all sound
like a Wikipedia page pretty

much.
He was talking about the fact

that the recently especially
some big spirit companies have

been hiring people who used to
sell chocolates and tires 2

weeks ago and now they're
selling spirits for big brands.

And you know, my theory about
this, that's definitely a

negative.
There are some positives about

this as well, but my theory is
that this is happening because,

you know, in the end of the day,
if you think about it, in order

to be, for example, a lawyer, I
don't want to compare ourselves

to lawyers, of course, but
that's just for the sake of the

argument.
If you compare our industry, you

know, or a bartender or a sales
Rep to, to a lawyer, for

example, or a doctor, not
everybody can become a lawyer

because you need to go through
several exams.

You need to pass these exams and
then you need to practice and

then, you know, you can become a
lawyer on your own.

Now, anybody can become a sales
Rep, anybody can become a

bartender, right?
So this is definitely positive

because it gives our industry a
larger space to play with

because more people can enter
our world and therefore, you

know, even more talents as well.
But the negative side of it is

definitely that by having a much
more broad broader reach, then

you also end up having people
who are not supposed to be doing

that, you know, people who don't
want to do that.

So and that's what happened with
our industry.

There are good people, there are
bad people.

There are, I think the main
issue is that there is a general

lack of overarching rules.
There should be a much more

strict policy when hiring people
in our industry.

Let's start with my usual
opening question that all the

listeners are waiting for it,
which is does it start with the

brand or with the liquid?
What's your take on that one?

Yes.
So my take is it starts with an

idea.
That's what it starts with.

Now, the idea could be in the
form of a liquid or it could be

in the form of a value, which is
what I like personally.

What am I bringing to the
industry?

And to be honest with you, the
idea there could be many

different ideas.
I mean, the idea could be making

money, which I have nothing
against.

You know, many people start
brands just for the sake of

making money.
And to be honest with you, I

have absolutely nothing against
profit and making money as long

as things are done in a certain
way.

That doesn't mean that things
have to be done my way.

Things, I think things have to
be done with the with the work

ethic.
That's also about how you

communicate the, the brand.
If, if we analyze the spirits

industry now, I think there are
a couple of interesting

scenarios.
So if you look at the example of

tankerite, yeah, tankerite gene,
which for me is one of the best

gene ever made, by the way, they
didn't really need to make a new

gene.
You know, they didn't really

need to create tanker item.
I mean, did they really need to?

You know, they were already
selling millions of bottles,

distribution all over the world,
very strong brand awareness.

But you know, they did it.
They did it because they noticed

that the market changed, that
there were many more competitors

that were coming to play on the
same field.

To be honest with you, I think
they also done it because

because why not?
I mean, I've the point I'm

trying to make is this, I've met
so many producers who just do

things for the fun of it.
You know, the here is a thing

that many people don't know
about distillers or many

distillers.
And I worked in a distillery.

That's where I learned what I'm
about to say.

So distilling can be very
boring.

That's something that people
don't think about.

So because when you work in a
distillery, it doesn't matter

whenever you're producing, let's
say a gin, right?

Once you find the recipe for
that gin and then you

afterwards, it's pretty much all
about, you know, weighting the

botanicals, putting them in the
steel, diluting the neutral

spirit, putting it in a steel,
distilling, and it's pretty much

always the same things, you
know.

So I think because of that, many
distillers try to escape the

routine and create weird stuff.
I mean, I've tried Scotch

whiskies aged in X mescal
barrels, which to me doesn't

make much sense.
You know, I didn't appreciate

the liquid very much.
But I understand it from the

distillers perspective, you
know, because the fun part is

the creative part, you know,
that's, that's the fun side for

them.
So I'm I'm not surprised when I

see weird, weird liquids.
Definitely not for me, but but I

understand that side as well.
So just to answer again to your

question, I think, I think it
starts with an idea.

So there are different
scenarios.

So one is the let's say, let's
let's call it the Tanqueray kind

of scenario.
What is the other kind of

scenario?
Because now you got me

interested.
So the other scenario is, for

example, what what I just told
you, now you know the, the why

would the Scotch whisky brand
launch a single malt which has

been aged in, in ex mescal
casks?

It might sound exciting, it
might look exciting, but then

you go and assess the liquid and
it becomes very confusing.

So I'm going to tell you
something else very interesting.

So in WSCT we have a term, all
right, which is a, it's

basically a quality criteria,
right?

It's one of the criterias,
quality criterias, which we use

to be able to assess the quality
of a spirit objectively.

This criteria, which is my
favorite by the way, is, is

expressiveness.
So an an expressive spirit is a

spirit that is a good ambassador
of the category it represents.

Now, the category of the spirits
is managed by traditional

practices and the laws that
govern that category.

It's not about what Felicia says
or Chris says or or that

distiller says.
It's about the laws and

traditional practices.
All right.

Which means that when I assess a
single malt, that single malt

needs to speak to me about
either a production process or

it needs to tell me something
that the distiller was doing in

the distillery when it was
producing the spirit.

You know, it needs to speak to
me.

And I find some products to be a
little bit confusing.

So if I if I'm paraphrasing you,
I, I guess this is like, is this

from AW City Level 3?
No, it's just W city in general.

No, when I when I did the level
2, like I didn't remember the

expressiveness, but but I I like
the I like the term and so if

I'm understanding correctly, so
it, it has to represent the

category.
So in that sense it must be

boring because it shouldn't go
crazy because if a single mode

goes crazy, it scores low on
expressiveness of that single

mode category.
Or did I understand wrong?

Not necessarily.
So it's one thing that is very

important is that this needs to
be put within the context of a

specific category.
Now, for example, single malt

Scotch, it doesn't have to be
boring because that's another

thing that many people often
don't think about, right?

So when you're making a whiskey,
there are about 1000 different

choices that you have, you know,
from the level of esterification

you want in your fermentation
batch, from the type of barley

you choose, pit or not pit, how
much pit you know, how strong

are we going to make this
fermentation batch?

What's the distillation strength
going to be?

So the distillation strength for
the ones who don't know is

pretty much the ABV at which the
the fresh distilled spirit comes

out of the and the distillation
strength that ABV will affect

the aromatic intensity of a
spirit or at least is one of the

factors that will affect the
aromatic intensity.

Then after, and that's only up
until distillation, then think

about moderation, which makes
up, you know, about 70 to 80% of

the final flavour profile of the
whiskey, right?

Which type of tasks am I using?
Which type of fill are they?

How many am I using?
So there are about really, there

are many different choices that
a distiller can make not to make

a boring liquid, you know?
So it doesn't necessarily need

to be boring.
Also, just bear in mind one

thing.
At least that's the way I see

it, right?
I tend to enjoy.

Now forget the educator side, as
a consumer, I tend to enjoy

liquids which are expressive and
liquid, liquid which speaks

which speak to me.
And that could be with the next

mescal cask and X whatever cask.
I don't care as long as the

liquid speaks something to me.
So I don't think necessarily

just choosing to be within, you
know the limits is boring, if

you know what I mean.
OK, OK, no, no, no, I hear what

you're saying.
Now that's a super interesting.

I mean, I will talk to you for
hours like I, I hope this

episode doesn't last seven
hours, but maybe we will split

it in 10 episodes because this
is very I'll.

Try and give you shorter
answers.

Very, very, very interesting.
So I mean like one, one of the

things like when I, I still
remember when we when we met in

Bratislava and we started
talking was one, one of the the

guest shifts.
I said, you know, the liquid

should drive the communication
one friend and we, you know, we

almost hugged each other.
You said something really,

really important now, but let's
start to you late on that one

because I want to make that
conversation public now, like on

what we we were talking about.
So what?

What did you mean when when it
clicked with you?

Yeah, So what I meant is I love
it when I go to the shop and I

buy a bottle of whatever spirits
and then I can turn the bottle,

read the label and pretty much
read what I'm about to taste.

What I'm talking about here is
creating expectations for

people, you know, so they know
what to expect.

Many brands that there are
exceptions all right, but many

brands within the spirits
industry have chosen the

romantic route, which is our
spirit was crafted on the

mountains of X place with you
know, all these romantic.

Clouds and the sun are shaping
and the terrain and the soil and

the terroir and blah blah blah,
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And the Unicorn tears and the

star powder.
All these words that mean

everything and nothing because
in the end of the day they're

not telling me anything about
the liquids.

We were discussing this with
Georgie Bell on one of the

previous episodes.
Now that we were talking about

when they say, you know, like,
OK, I can taste oak, you know,

you know what, what does oak
mean?

I mean, have you ever licked an
oak tree?

I never, you know, had a bite of
a, of an oak tree.

You know, I have no idea what
it's supposed to taste.

Sometimes I feel that we make it
too difficult, which is one

point.
And then the other point like is

about expectations, you know,
because I give you this example,

not like there's a lot of brand,
like, I mean, we know Apparatus

Princess, you know, like the,
they created the category.

No, and there's a lot of brands
that are trying to tap into the

spritz category.
And I've worked with some of

them as well.
And, and for me, the key thing

is that how do you manage
expectations if you want to

substitute up at all in that
drink?

Because it has a very
distinctive taste and you know,

you may like it, you may not
like it, you may like the, the

sweetness coming out of it.
You may be too sugary for you or

whatever, but you need to manage
that expectation because if you

just substitute the liquid you
are going to take, you know, put

people off.
Because then if I, if I change

it with something that is, but
this is much better because

there is less sugar.
OK, but you have to explain it

to the consumer because if the
waiter is saying we don't have

apparel, we have Felicia's
bitter, whatever, then I want to

know what it is.
So you have to be able to say

this is much more bitter, there
is less sugar.

It's going to be a slightly
different experience for you,

but I think you're going to
enjoy it.

And if you like, I don't know,
Campari or if you'd like an

Amado, you name it, you know,
like you may like that kind of

profile, but then if you just
reach the, the, the cards, you

know, then basically people, and
this happened to me with many

brands I work with, like, you
know, they explained it to me as

this is the new whatever.
And then I tasted and I was

like, what the hell is this?
You know, like, but I love that

product, but you shouldn't have
sold it to me that way.

Yeah, I think many, but now
that's super interesting, man.

I mean, I think so many brands
are going for, at least from my

experience, are going for the
surprise effect.

But what they don't understand
is that this market is

overcrowded.
Again, the example of Ferrita

going to the spirits shop, Yes.
So if in front of me, I have two

bottles, all right, and one of
them gives me some expectations

on the taste profile.
Look, I actually this happened

recently, two weeks ago, I came
back from a trip.

I stopped at the duty free of
the airport because I'm studying

wine as well now.
So I wanted to buy a bottle of a

bottle of Chardonnay from South
Africa just to, you know, taste

the profile and analyze it and
enjoy it as well eventually.

And then there were several
bottles, all right, And there

was one bottle that caught my
eye.

I flipped the label and and I
read on this bottle it was

something like our Chardonnay is
expressive of what Chardonnay is

supposed to be with aromas of
lemon and green apple.

Our fermentation uses wild and
cultured yeast, so here you can

expect aromas of banana, XY and
Z.

We also mature it in tasks for X
amount of time.

This is going to make the
texture a bit more creamy and

soft and blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.

So pretty much he was telling me
how the liquid tastes like and

you know, I was reading it and I
was like, oh man, that's exactly

what I was looking for.
And guess what?

I bought the bottle.
There were other bottles

standing right in front of me
which didn't do the same thing.

So I was like, you know what?
Because people want the safer,

the safer option.
You know, if people know what

they're going to taste, they
will buy it.

Yeah.
And, you know, and, and to your

previous point, you know, like
it has to reflect because

otherwise it became a bit of a
chicken and egg on, you know,

liquid versus what's written.
Because sometimes a marketeer

likes certain things and maybe
worked on another company before

and then he's thinking that the
liquid tastes like certain

things.
But actually there was a

previous liquid that he worked
for rather than what's seen

actually in the bottle.
There is a disconnection from

it.
But to your point, I would make,

for example, WSCT or whatever
certification, a mandatory thing

for people entering the
industry.

You know, I came from beer, you
know, you, you see the WSCT

there like behind me, you know,
the wine and spirits on level 2.

And I, I came from beer.
And when I reinvented myself,

as, you know, when I opened my
company and I launched my

company, the first thing I, I
said is like, I want to work on

brands outside of beer.
You know, I want to work with

spirits.
And I did, and I did the WCT

level 2 on wines first and then
on spirits.

And that has given me some
information.

And sometimes when I'm talking
to people that have worked 20

years in the spirits industry,
they have no idea what I'm

talking about because they never
had that kind of education.

They had a brand brainwash kind
of education.

My brand is the best choice.
You shouldn't drink any other.

You know, it's like you, you get
married 18 and you have never

talked to any any other person
from the from the other sex.

Like then you're, you're
divorced.

And then it's like, Hey, what
are how am I supposed to speak

to to men or to women?
Because he also brings another

point with many companies that
don't want their employees to

drink other brands.
And then all of a sudden, like,

how am I supposed to fight that
competitor if I have no idea how

it tastes like Because I can
only buy it on my free time and

hide that bottle in the cabinet
because I don't want my boss to

see me drinking it.
Yeah, 100%.

You know, couldn't agree more.
And I actually have witnessed

this with my own eyes.
I was doing, I'll tell you a

story briefly.
So I, I was doing, tasting for a

whiskey brand again, American
whiskey brand for the executives

of this big brand who came, you
know, who came to visit.

And I was like, so these guys,
they know their products,

they've tasted, you know, their
products.

So there is nothing more I can
do for them.

So how can I surprise them?
How can I stand out?

You know, so I was thinking, I
was thinking and, and in the end

I came to the conclusion that
the only way to to surprise them

and to bring them value was to
have a blind tasting with their

brands and some competitor
brands.

Hold on now, this wasn't a blind
tasting where I'll go like, OK,

pick your brands.
You know, obviously you don't

want to you, you want to make
your guest comfortable.

It wasn't anything like that.
It was more about.

So the way I approached it, I
was like, OK, so pick sample #2

what's the aromatic intensity of
sample #2 or can you smell it

from here, from here, from here,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

They were like, OK, so it's
high, great, pronounced, yeah.

Then pick sample #3.
What's the aromatic intensity of

sample #3 and pretty much, you
know, then what's the texture of

sample #2 compared to sample #4
So pretty much that that was my

approach, you know, to
understand the liquids without

telling them what the liquids
were.

And in the end, in the end, they
were like, Oh my God, was this

helpful?
I've never done anything like

this.
I was like, yeah, I know, I

know, you know, and again, this
should also be mandatory to

taste other liquids.
And because you need to

understand where you're at, you
know, in the market or as a

liquid, you need to understand
where where you stand.

You know, what kind of texture
does your liquid have compared

to, to your 10 competitors?
You know, what kind of aroma

speak out compared to your
competitors.

And once you have that, I
believe you can make your

messaging stronger because you
can be more precise.

You know, the texture of your
liquid could be smoother and

more mouth feeling and slightly
thicker compared to skin, which

also has a thick, a thick
texture but is a little rougher.

So, you know, then you can make
your messages, your messaging

more precise.
I find this to be very

interesting.
Like I remember when I was

working for pizza as a brand,
you know, that the Czech poor is

like, it's a very thick foam,
you know, it's a very high.

So a lot of people's know what
the hell is this, You know, like

imagine like Britain and so on.
And, and for me, it's like you

don't fight that objection about
foam by saying this is the Czech

way of doing foam.
You know, this is the original

way.
It should be about foam, not

like like the shit you drink in
Britain.

You know, it's not about that.
It's like it's about explaining,

you know, like the level of, you
know, hoppiness and you know,

the foam allows, you know, like
this weakness of it.

And I was using in my training,
I invented this like just a

randomly, you know, I was using
the Parma ham as an example.

Like the, the salt, you know,
when we say prosciutto Dolce,

you know, it's sweet prosciutto,
you know, it doesn't mean that

there's sugar in it.
It means that there's no salt,

you know, because in the fat,
the salt doesn't permeate the

fat.
It just enters the meat.

So if you remove the fat from
the meat of the ham, you you get

a very salty experience.
If you leave the thick lay of of

fat, you get this kind of sweet
feeling because it's a

contrasting on the saltiness.
So it's not actual witness.

And that's like exactly the same
with the hoppiness of Pilsen

required with with the form
because hops don't enter the

form, you know.
But if you explain it this way,

first of all, it's sticky
because you will remember it.

And secondly, you're not going,
you know, head butt on your

customer like that, that that
guy that is very funny on

Instagram that says like, don't
fuck it up.

You've been doing it wrong all
your life.

You know, you know, if you do it
in a funny way, then it's fine.

But then explain it to people
and bring them on your side.

Or at least say, OK, I'll still
never drink with, with foam, but

at least now they're educated
and they know what, what it is

about.
You mentioned like many, many

interesting points.
And what I'm interesting to

know, like one of the points
that I, that I make is always

to, you know, not trying to
appeal everyone, you know, for a

brand.
So focus on what I call a target

occasion.
So whether you want to go for a

specific cocktail or for a
specific time of the day or for

a specific taste profile, you
know, do you agree with that

kind of approach?
Or, you know, how would you

recommend to a brand you know,
to to be specific enough?

Because a lot of people say that
you shouldn't be too

prescriptive, but then at the
same time you need to be somehow

prescriptive.
What's your take on this?

Yeah.
So I believe you should have an

identity, a clear identity, all
right.

And you build your liquids based
on that identity.

The communication you have
should resonate with that

identity.
The events you have should

resonate with that identity.
You make sure you have your

identity.
Then let let people choose you

know, of course, have your
events, you know, I don't know

an aperitivo brand have your
aperitivo event with snacks and

bubbles and and blah, blah,
blah.

But then people will choose in
the end of the day, the market,

you know, will choose how to use
your product.

And freedom is great.
You know, I think the issue is

when there is a lack of
identity, when, as you said, you

know, brands are trying to be
Everything Everywhere.

I'm not in a position to judge
because I don't own a spirit

brand.
I think it's always easy to talk

without knowing the same and
the, the, the, the nuances of

of.
But that said, if I had to is

like you, Chris, right?
You have your identity, right?

You live in Prague, yes, you're
Italian, you have an Italian

accent.
You dress well, you put your

jacket.
That's your identity, yes.

And then, you know, you showcase
these identity and your accent

and your way and your thoughts
and your ideas.

And then it's up to people if
they want to invite you for

dinner, for lunch, or they they
don't want to invite you at all.

That's very true.
And, and, and that brings me to

another point, which is how can
we make brands more accessible

in terms of languaging?
Like many, many times, like

whiskey brands, rum brands, you
know, they're very intimidating.

It's like the wine shelf that
you mentioned before, you know,

like I have no idea what to look
for.

How it's supposed today is, you
know, then I just go on price,

on name, on the bottle, on I
think this could be interesting

and so on.
And there is this element that,

you know, it's totally lacking
because then, you know, you, you

scare people off, you know, and
then all of a sudden people say,

oh, people don't drink whiskey
or people don't drink rum or

whatever.
You know, the, the reason why

for me at least, like
empirically, there's more people

drinking rum than drinking
whiskey is because rum is first

of all, it's sweeter, but it's,
it's also like more approachable

than whiskey.
You know, whiskey has created

this connotation that is only
for a few.

It's like cognac, you know, it's
like it's expensive, it's only

for a few people, only if you
understand it and so on.

While RAM is having all these,
you know, big parties on the,

you know, on the lower end of
the market.

So to say, those categories that
are trending are probably

categories that manage to speak
the language of the masses

versus other brands and other
comp, you know, other

categories.
They are keeping it a little bit

more an elitist kind of
approach.

It's a complicated question
which requires a complicated

answer.
So first of all, I don't think

that spirits should be made like
spirits.

Communication should be made
more accessible.

I think it should be made more
clear.

I think one of the issues right
now in the spirits industry is

that some brands try to be way
to accessible and they do that

by mentioning as I said earlier,
words which say everything and

nothing.
The terroir of say, what does

terroir tell me honestly?
Now that you mentioned terroir

on your label, right?
Does that mention an automatic

profile that I can find in your
liquid, Mention all the kind of

finish, mention the texture,
mention anything else you know

that I can find in these in
these liquids?

Then they can make it more
clear.

I can choose more wisely when
I'm buying products.

That said, you brought up RAM.
Now, I think RAM is a little

more complicated.
The, the rum industry is very

varied and there are some
countries, you know, I as an

educator, Chris, you need to
understand, I always relate my

arguments to, to the laws
regarding spirits production and

regulations.
And, and so I have to mention

this, that in rum there are
certain countries which have

very strict tight rules and some
other countries which have very

little.
And in the countries where they

have very little rules or even
no rules in some cases, they

tend to do everything and
everywhere.

And that perhaps could reflect
into their communication and in

the way they do events and so
on, which then these argument

can be extended into the type of
reach they have.

I as a professional, as I said
earlier, I'm looking for a brand

who can give me expectations.
I'm looking for a brand with a

clear identity and I'm looking
for a brand that keeps the

promise it has made on the
label.

Now, that said, this industry is
not made of Felicia only.

I understand there are
consumers, there are people who

drink and they got nothing to do
with this industry.

They just want to drink for fun.
Completely understandable,

completely fine with that.
But that said, I just want to

say this, it wouldn't hurt to be
more clear, you know, and make

the communication more about the
liquid.

And to be honest with you,
Chris, it's absolutely fine If

there is a certain category of
spirits which is is more

appreciated by the elite and a
certain category of spirits

which is appreciated by, you
know, people like me and you,

it's absolutely fine, you know?
I thought we were part of the

elite.
Felicia, what's wrong?

We were, we were.
Then we met in Bratislava.

Everything changed.
It's fine to have an identity,

you know?
It shouldn't be everything for

everybody.
I agree.

I agree to your previous point.
Like I mean what what I was

referring to is also like the
fact that you know, there is a

lot of languaging you used from
a distiller perspective.

So it's about, OK, I've used 17
Botan Eagles, have used this

oak, have used this thing.
And then all of a sudden, like,

you know, if people know what
that means, they know.

But then what I would always say
like, I don't care.

How many Botan Eagles have you
put in this gin?

I want to know what am I
supposed to taste?

You know, because if you
mentioned 2537, however they

are, I want to know what am I
supposed to taste like?

Am I supposed to say taste, you
know, like a lemon zest or

citrus or pepper or basil or
Rosemary or whatever the hell.

Like, you know, it's, it's the
prominent botanical of that

period.
And then I can relate to it in a

little bit better way because
otherwise, Jenny, just like then

I choose between I, I remember,
you know, like when my, my, my

father was still with us, you
know, he was telling me like,

you know, what is this thing
with these hopes?

This is like with five OPS and
this is with seven OPS.

So I buy this one because it's
better.

And as I know that does doesn't
mean anything, you know, like

it's not about how many OPS is
not the horsepower in the

Lamborghini, you know, like it's
just like it's a different kind

of thing.
But you know, I feel and I and

don't get me wrong, I don't want
to make it more accessible in

the wrong sense, but I want to
make it, as you said, rightfully

clear to manage expectation.
And I I know what I'm buying and

I buy bangs for bucks kind of
thing now.

But on on this one, I'm a big
fun of like bridging categories

with taste profile, you know,
because I don't like, I don't

like to live with the categories
that I've been assigned.

There's usually like the people
that come in as I'm a rum

drinker, you know, I want to
drink rum, I want to drink gin,

I want to drink whiskey.
But then there's also people

that are not into categories.
They may think of something, but

they go more of from a taste
perspective.

No, I like sweet, I like pina
colada, I like Negroni.

I like this is how I explain
myself.

For example, when they want to
surprise me then as I usually

drink Negroni and then
automatically they think, OK,

then he likes the balance of red
vermouth and bitter.

You know, it's more on the
bittersweet than on the sour

sweet kind of thing.
So I don't like the citrus.

I don't like those kind of
flavors and then I tend to drink

certain things.
But I feel that there should be

more kind of like education than
on this front to recruit people

into categories they're not used
to.

You know what?
What's your experience as a as a

bartender 1st and then as an
educator?

I think here I need to answer to
you as an educator first and

then as a bartender because
that's when I sort of developed

this talk.
So based on my experience, which

is actually quite interesting if
you go and analyze the nuances

of it, I see that many producers
whenever they're trying to make

a, let's say Chris is not a
whiskey drinker.

He doesn't like single malt.
And me, Felicia, as a producer

is trying to create a whiskey
that could make Chris happy.

Now there are two options to go
about this.

One option is to do again.
So what does Chris like?

He likes rum.
Great.

So let's take our whiskey and
age it in ex bourbon casks for

10 years and then the last 1-2
years we aged in ex rum casks.

The other way to do this, which
I think what should be done and

what is being done now by many
great producers is to create

lighter styles of that spirit,
lighter in aromatic intensity,

lighter in flavours, still
expressive, but not so slap on

the face kind of brands.
You know, these brands, you

imagine when you smell pitted
whiskey, for example, you know

like a heavily pitted whiskey,
like 200 parts per million of

pits, right?
These whiskeys, you can smell

them from your feet, literally
from the ground if you put the

glass on the ground.
I think the way should be done

is to create lighter styles of
the same spirits, you know, so

you keep the DNA, you maintain
the DNA of what you do.

And you can also recruit people
who are not so used to drink

whiskey perhaps.
And that's something that many

big brands I can, I can name
you, for example, if you take

Glamorangi 10, yes.
Now Glenmorangie, which by the

way is a whiskey, which is very
suitable for whiskey drinkers

and beginners.
The reason why it's suitable for

whiskey drinkers, it's because
it's relatively lighter style of

whiskey, right?
If Felicia was a whiskey

drinker, wants to have a a
whiskey at 3:00 in the

afternoon, you know, 2:00 in the
afternoon at 12, you know,

before lunch, I can still have
that whiskey because it doesn't

kill me, you know, not in terms
of ABV, but in terms of a

romantic profile, You know, it
doesn't kill my palate before

lunch.
It's it's like, it's elegant.

It's great.
On the other hand, the same

whiskey is great for beginners
because it doesn't for the same

reasons it doesn't kill your
palate.

You know, it's great.
So you can start to understand a

category.
The reason why Glenn Morangi is

lighter in style where there are
several, several reasons, but

one of the reasons and it's
purposely made like this, you

know, because in fact, if you go
people just Google Glen Morangi

pot still and you will see a
picture of a pot still copper

with a very tall swan's neck.
That tall neck allows for much

more reflux.
Reflux is pretty much nothing

else than a an interaction that
takes place during the steel

between components with a high
boiling point and components

with a lower boiling point.
And, and pretty much this

interaction allows only for the
most volatile components, which

are typically these lighter
components.

You know, all your orange
aromas, zesty, fruity, floral to

go up and to go into the
condenser.

So pretty much they're creating
purposely a lighter style of

spirit.
Which I think is fantastic.

Another example of this can be
Singleton, for example, which is

also relatively lighter in
style, but also very suitable

for whiskey drinkers.
I mean, I I drink it myself.

And if I understand correctly
from my old knowledge of

distillation, so can we say that
basically it's it's a pot steel

distillation that is is taking
some elements from the column

steel kind of distillation in
that sense?

So it's like more on a kind of
like vodka way of having a very

tall column so that, you know,
like you make the, the, the

heavy components much, you know,
less pronounced.

You know, like they basically
you don't allow the heavy taste

profile to go through the swan
neck in that sense.

And then, you know, like you
make it a little bit lighter

compared to a very small, you
know, like a low swan neck that

you know, then it will have a
like a much richer, fuller kind

of body.
Actually, let's break a myth

right now.
Big big time myth that column

stills only produce neutral or
lifestyle spirits and pot stills

only produce character full
spirits.

While it is true that many
producers use column stills to

produce lighter style spirits
and pot stills to produce

character full spirits, in
reality you could use, you know,

a short column with fewer plates
to create a very character full

spirits.
Are you familiar with Agrico rum

from Martinique?
Yes, yes.

Now Martinique has an AOC and a
Palaciondo regime controle which

clearly states I.
Watched your video on that one

so I know it.
Right.

So which clearly states that
these Rams must be distilled in

column.
Now, does anybody want to dare

to say that these Agricole Rams
are light or neutral?

They're very characterful and
they're distilled in column

Blanchard Maniacis.
In many cases distilled.

It's about how you manage the
distillation in the end of the

day.
This is another great point

because this is another of, as
you rightfully called it, myth.

You know that automatically when
people hear column steel, they

see the devil know when it's a
flavorful kind of category

without thinking that it can be
like a lower column like with

fewer plates.
As you said, you know, like

rather than Hot steel is good,
column steel is bad.

Again, it comes down to
education.

I, I'm going to say something
else now if I may, just for 40

seconds.
I think there is a big

misunderstanding, right?
And this within our industry

when it comes to consumers.
And because many consumers, for

example, they go and visit a
distillery, right?

They learn the the practices
they have in place for the

distillery, the production
process and the way they do

things, and they believe that
these things that they learned

are to be applied to the world
category.

Absolutely, that's true.
Right.

So instead of instead of
understanding that, great,

that's the way they do things.
I'll give you a very quick

example.
In Scotland, the three most

commonly known type of whiskeys
are single malt, blended and

grain whiskey.
Grain whiskey is typically

distilled in column stills.
However, you could easily, you

could by law make grain whiskey
in pot as well as long as you

don't use 100% malted barley and
still call it grain whiskey.

However, typically grain whiskey
is made in columns.

Malt whiskey must be distilled
in pot.

Now me consumer who goes to
visit distiller in Scotland and

this is just as an example.
And, and and that's where I

learned that a column steel is
used to produce a grain whiskey.

And I know from my experience
that the grain whiskey is

slightly lighter in style
because it's distilled to a

higher distillation strength and
a malt whiskey is distilled in

pot.
That's why it's more

characterful then it's it's
pretty much, you know, the

problem comes when when I as a
consumer was just witnessed and

learned these things go out to
go and visit production facility

somewhere else in the world and
then apply the same things

there.
Because pretty much in my mind

now column steals only create
light or neutral spirits.

Pop steals only create character
full oilier, more mouth feeling

kind of spirits.
You know, people need to

understand that laws and
traditional practices change by

category and by style within
that category.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, 68 and 69, so feel free
to listen to both.

One last thing, if you enjoy
this podcast, lease, leave a

review, share it with friends
and remember that brands are

built bottom U.