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Join us as we explore the dynamic world of higher education at the University of Aberdeen. In each episode, you'll hear insightful discussions with educators who share their practice, highlighting what worked well and what didn't. Whether you're an academic, supporting teaching and learning, a student, or simply passionate about education, this podcast offers valuable perspectives and thought-provoking conversations to keep you informed and inspire you to try something new. If you would like to contribute, please get in touch with the Centre for Academic Development as we’d love to hear from you.
INTRO [00:00:03] This podcast is brought to you by the University of Aberdeen.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:00:14] In this episode, we're joined by Jacqui Hutchison, who's a lecturer in School of Psychology and she's going to share with us insights from her school's engagement TESTA when she discusses how the test of framework is supported, curriculum conversations, and being used to enhance and build on the existing approaches to reviewing assessment practice.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:00:34] What I'd like to ask, first of all, is, um, what made your school decide to get involved with TESTA?
JACQUI HUTCHISON [00:00:42] So we thought there was a bit of work to do around our assessments and our program. Really looking at what information is there, what's the legacy information that has maybe been passed from person to new person to new person? Um, and it was a bit of an exercise for us, or an opportunity for an exercise for us to really get involved and think, um, use the platform as opposed to look at the entire program and just see if we needed a little bit of work, where it's working well and how we could update things.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:01:15] Mhm. So you had already done, I think in your School, being School of Psychology, you guys are always a bit ahead of the rest of us. You'd already done, you've already done quite a lot of work over the years on looking at your sort of program assessments and taking that level. How would you describe being part of TESTA as being different from maybe what you do in your routine reviewing process?
JACQUI HUTCHISON [00:01:39] Um, I think that's a really good point. Um, it's given us a bit of a framework. I think sometimes we can come in and we all have our ideas and what we want to do, but sometimes it doesn't work too well or not as well as we would like. TESTA gave us the opportunity to follow a framework to get external input to, to maybe encourage us to think about particular things that perhaps may have been overlooked before. So I think it gave us that opportunity, um, and an opportunity to perhaps get more staff involved in the process as well.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:02:12] Mhm. So one of the things that we've heard as feedback on and TESTA, um, is that thing of it's the external element that for some people that's actually seems quite a negative of “I don't want somebody else coming in and marking my homework”. Um, how did that go down in your school? Was it was there any worries about the idea of external oversight, or was that something that was appreciated?
JACQUI HUTCHISON [00:02:34] I think it was particularly welcomed. We were probably a little bit intrepid. You know, always you think, uh, getting judged. Um, but actually it, um, it staff found it quite liberating for a couple of reasons. And the level of staff engagement was phenomenal. It was quite surprising. Um, but what we did see was we had a lot of new staff having come in in the last year or two were more involved in the sort of course administration side as well so it was quite new to them. So they had new and fresh ideas, but maybe didn't know how to, um, how to go about changing things. So it gave us the opportunity for that feedback, um, externally, but also little bit of validation if we were experiencing issues, um, they could let us know that we weren't the only school experience in those issues, but also saying, that's okay, here is how we can perhaps change that or work towards change, which was really appreciated. It just gave us that little bit of support.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:03:31] Um, so then, I mean, not asking you to go into your TESTA report or anything, but was there anything that that you think emerged that maybe you were surprising or you weren't expecting or anything you thought, “oh yeah, actually, maybe we could do this differently?”
JACQUI HUTCHISON [00:03:49] Um, I think what was really lovely about the experience were there were very few surprises. Um, but perhaps what it has done is pushed us on to try and change things maybe a bit more, um, uh, a bit more a pace, I think. Um, I can't I don't actually think there were any surprises. Um, I think for the process that allow us to do is to find a way to change things that maybe seemed a little bit overwhelming for us, but actually with that external input, simplified it, you know, sort of showed us how that could be done in a much more straightforward, perhaps less intensive way.
And so I think that was a it gave us more energy, um, at a time when things are really busy, but it gave us more energy to just get stuck in.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:04:39] Um, so obviously you've just kind of completed that, so you haven't had time to really embed those changes and then see how they, they changed. Have you got any plans for how you will sort of take that forward in terms of evaluating? Does this make a difference to the students journey or the staff's experiences, or is it just a case of let's get it implemented just now?
JACQUI HUTCHISON [00:04:59] No, I think we're very keen to get the student voice. And so, um, we've had, um, not a lot of time to start implementing it, but we are in the process of making some changes that we think will make things more transparent for students and actually for staff as well. I think, again, quite a lot of legacy stuff comes in that we assume knowledge of. We assume, um, as is perhaps correct, but maybe needs a little bit tweaking, a little bit of change. And so I think it's really important for us and maybe by next year, next academic year, to get that feedback from staff who are fairly new into the role, and see how that process has helped them structure how they will carry out some changes.
But we- it's really important for us to get the student feedback and to see where things are… It's all about inclusivity, and it's all about making things really transparent and easy for students to find and easy for students to understand how, what we teach and how we teach and helps them develop as students, but also as individuals. And I think that's where TESTA is really going to help us um, yeah, make our mark.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:06:11] So obviously TESTA is- and we've gone through now in Aberdeen two years of piloting, and now in terms of this of a third year, I starting to really firm up the protocol for how we do it. We’ve now got a, we think, um, efficient system for doing it now um in terms of for your School, how would you envisage that ongoing? You know, would you want to see a rerun of TESTA, uh, in the future? What sort of frequency, have you had any thoughts about whether it's is this a once and done and then the School gets on themself, or would you see that there would be a role for TESTA or coming back into the School at some point?
JACQUI HUTCHISON [00:06:47] I don't think it's once and done. I think what it's allowed us to do is, as I see, give us the framework, but I think I would see us having the TESTA process maybe rerun and probably a couple of years time to get this time to embed and make changes and then evaluate them. But I would really like the process to be, um, a bit of a revolving door, you know, come back and let us know how we are doing and let us learn from what's been learned from TESTA and then see how that works. So I, I would like it to be a rolling process.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:07:22] Mhm. Excellent. Um and then I mean you mentioned earlier about the student voice, I think we've heard lots of “how do we get the student voice in here?”. And, and that's when things that with TESTA with the we we've trialled focus groups and questionnaires. We're now in our third version of the questionnaire that we think is working a bit better now. Um, and I guess one of the difficulties is that we're always working with those students who are just about to leave. Do you see any how we could incorporate any more of that student voice into this sort of assessment design feedback process, either through TESTA or something within the School?
JACQUI HUTCHISON [00:08:03] So I think we have quite an engaged body of students, and perhaps it's maybe the same students and that's something we have to be careful about. But I think it's really important, um, to, to attempt to that student feedback, whether that is through our Staff Student Liaison meetings, um, whether it's through advisory boards that we have, um, started up in the School, um, I think there's a place for student voice, but it has to come earlier. I think we need that reflection as students are sort of exiting, but we also need students who are in the here and now to tell us what's working for them and what isn't. And but then we have to get better at letting students know how their voice has been acted upon rather than just heard. And we haven't quite figured that out yet. I'll be honest.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:08:43] So one of the elements of TESTA, as you all know, is the, the production of the report which goes to Schools, and that's done with a very clear agreement that that's very private to the to the staff involved to help people feel comfortable sharing, etc. Um, but that does limit who else gets to see it um, including the students.
What would be your thoughts on should there be a version of that report made available to the students in the School that allows them to see, or is that is that too much of a peek behind the scenes? Does that actually- is that not helpful for you? Just wondering-
that closed report element, could you see there being any advantage to it being shared more widely?
JACQUI HUTCHISON [00:09:29] I think that could I think that it should be decided in partnership with the School. I think, I'm not sure the purpose of students not seeing that at all, because if, if it's informed by some of their feedback, then they need to know how that's fed into the process, why we're changing, what we're changing or not. Um, but I think there's got to be a version that we share with students. However, some of the report may involve conversations that staff have been very open and honest about. Um, so it's, it's having that protective factor, because what we don't want to do is discourage people from being fully involved.
Um, so it's not about hiding things, it's just about making, I suppose the, the information that's necessary or the information is useful to students available, while not discouraging staff from being open and honest and transparent as well. So I think there's a balance to be struck, but I think students should see something from it.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:10:24] I think that's such a good point. I think it's that it goes two ways. You know, one of the things with TESTA is that the students get a safe space to give feedback that they're able to then have their voice heard without having to say to the person who's involved in their teaching “this is my view”, but it's presented as a group view. So actually almost think of a way to do it the other way as well, that the staff's voice and the outcomes of this can be shared with students. Um, but I guess that's quite it's probably about the version 4 or 5 of TESTA.
JACQUI HUTCHISON [00:10:54] Yeah, I think so. And I think it has to be done in, you know, in sort of collaboration with everyone involved to find a space where people are comfortable with what they're sharing, and then what goes to the wider audience. Yeah.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:11:08] Yeah. Okay. Um, and then, um, but pretty much covered most of the things, I guess just last point of if you were, um, to be asked to speak to a School who is currently considering TESTA on is maybe a little bit hesitant, what would you say to that School?
JACQUI HUTCHISON [00:11:29] “Go for it!”. I have nothing but positive things to say about it. I don't think I worried about being involved with TESTA, but you're always a little bit intrepid that, you know, where the bodies are buried. Um, maybe something that you don't know. Um, but, uh, I find it a really I find a really energising experience, I suppose. And it really restored my faith in everyone's dedication to teaching, um, and how involved they were and how committed they were to making it the best experience for students. And I think sometimes we get a little bit jaded. Maybe, you know, things get on top of you. I think that was a fantastic experience and it was very non-judgmental. It was very much “we are here to support and to help and guide if necessary”. And that felt like, um, it felt like a collaboration. It didn't feel like someone coming in and imposing. And so, uh, I would wholly encourage anyone to do. I think time ticks on and we do get overcome sometimes with resources and timing, and there's reasons not to do things that gives you energy to look at it again.
So, 100% go for it.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:12:34] Thank you for listening to our podcast series on TESTA at the University of Aberdeen.
We hope these conversations have given you some practical insight and sparked ideas for enhancing assessment and feedback in your own teaching. If you're interested in exploring TESTA and how it could support your teaching practice, please get in touch with the Centre for Academic Development. They'd be delighted to discuss opportunities for engagement and share guidance on getting started.
OUTRO [00:13:08] This podcast is brought to you by the University of Aberdeen.