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Join members of The Ready Room at the Bush School of Government and Public Service as they interview leaders who chose to answer the call to public service. Our distinguished guests reflect on their lives and careers and discuss emerging national security and intelligence topics. We will explore why these men and women dedicated their livelihoods to serving their country, and why the next generation should follow in their footsteps.
*The thoughts and ideas expressed in this podcast are not representative of Texas A&M, the Bush School, or the Intelligence Studies Program.
Howdy and welcome to the newest season of Answering the Call, Conversations with Practitioners. My name is Matthew Plunk. I am your host for this season and joining me today is Elizabeth Sherman, Visiting Professor of the Practice at Texas A&M University's Bush School of Government and Public Service.
Professor Sherman, thank you so much for being on the podcast. We're very glad to have you. Thank you so much.
I'm very happy to be here. Very honored. So, thank you for the invitation.
So, if you wouldn't mind starting off by telling us just a few things about yourself for our listeners. Okay, I'm a graduate of Texas A&M, Class of 91. I got my degree in journalism.
I was a reporter for the school paper, The Battalion, and always wanted to be a reporter. I met my husband here, Class of 92, Dean John Sherman, when he got picked up by the CIA to work. He had told me, hey, you know, a lot of the work that we do is very much like journalism, the writing and the investigating.
And so, I turned in my application and got hired as a imagery analyst. And it's been wonderful and fun for 25 years. I have two grown children.
Bradley Sherman is an assistant district attorney and my daughter is a social worker. Thank you very much. That sounds like a wonderful family.
Yes, thank you. So, to start off, could you give our listeners a brief overview of what geospatial intelligence actually entails? Geospatial intelligence, it's kind of evolved over the years. But basically, the bottom line is it's using imagery, satellite imagery, to put places and meaning and context on Earth.
So, if I am the President of the United States and I want to know what's going on with Russia and Ukraine, I would go to an imagery analyst and say, what are you seeing on satellite imagery? And it's not just the analyst saying, I see tanks, I see this, I see that. They also add context. They layer it with other ints, sigint, humint, mazint, ocint.
So, it's a multiple of things putting context and meaning to a place on Earth with satellite imagery being the base. Great, thank you. It seems like you have a lot of experience, but I also noticed you said earlier you started off as a journalist and yet now you have, what is it, three decades of experience in the field.
So, what initially drew you to geospatial intelligence? What sparked your interest? You know, that's a really good question because back then, very few times I think anyone has ever said, I want to be an imagery analyst. I want to be a geospatial analyst because it wasn't something talked about. It just wasn't something that you knew.
And so, when the CIA hired me, they actually assigned me to the imagery analysis program. And when I first walked in, I didn't go into the big, beautiful CIA building. It was this really dark, windowless building in southeast DC called Building 213.
And when I walked in, everything was dark and everyone was looking at satellite imagery on a light table. And I thought, oh my god, I don't want to do this. This doesn't seem right.
But once I started looking at imagery and starting to get to know a target or an area of responsibility, you almost have this relationship with the country you're looking at or with the issue you're looking at and you really become involved. And you are called all the time about people asking, what is going on there? You are the official person to say, this is what I see. This is what I see.
You're the first to know. It's like being a reporter. This is what I see.
It's all, of course, classified information and the audience is classified. But once I started to really enjoy that and the writing and the reporting and being curious and being nosy, a lot of things like a journalist, it just stuck with me and I never wanted to leave it. Never wanted to leave it because geospatial intelligence is always in the middle of everything.
Wonderful. Thank you so much. So looking back at the beginning of your career, what were some of the most significant changes you've witnessed in the geospatial intelligence field? When I was hired in 1999, I was told, you are an imagery analyst.
And so every day I would look at the film. It would come in a box and I'd look at the film underneath a light table, which nowadays they use a computer. The light table is actually in a museum now, in the Air and Space Museum in DC.
But I would look at this and make a textual report. This is what I see. In the early 2000s though, they brought in, NGA brought in or started to use people who made maps, cartographers were doing.
And then the cartographers then enhanced their tradecraft with using ArcGIS tools and knowing how to use the data, manipulate data, how to overlay the data. So as an imagery analyst, I always worked with the cartographer geospatial analyst. And then as the tradecraft grew, it became one.
So now when you go to NGA, you will have training in both imagery analysis and ArcGIS and making maps and things like that. The president's daily briefing always has infographics that are made by NGA analysts. Nowadays, how people consume intelligence or their news, a lot of it has to be very short and digestible bites.
And so an infographic, which is usually with all the geospatial information up on this graphic is really what the president loves to see. And so that's kind of how it's evolved from when I started in 1999, all the way to the present day. It's quite a change for sure.
Could you share a story from earlier in your career that really shaped your perspective on the importance of geospatial intelligence? I covered an area on the Africa continent that not many people were interested in. In fact, I was told that after three years of me looking at this, that they were probably going to take me off the account because they didn't think it was worth my time. But after the events of 9-11, the area that I looked at, all of a sudden people were starting to ask questions.
And I was the only person in the intelligence community that was following this. And so my phone never stopped ringing. And so I realized there's really not a place on earth that we should not be watching because you just don't know what's going to happen next.
We don't have the people, we don't have the manpower. That's why AI is very critical and how we're going to go through all of this. But it really made me realize that every single piece of real estate on this earth is important.
We all should be watching and be ready for whatever is asked of that area. Also, it taught me patience. Not every time you start a job, you're going to be right in the thick of things.
Sometimes it takes patience to develop an area of responsibility, a target package. It takes patience. And so it also taught me to be patient when it comes to my career.
That's a great story. Now let's talk a little bit more about why it exists. So we know it plays a role in a lot of different sectors from national security to environmental monitoring.
Could you elaborate on some of the key applications of GEOINT technology? Well, I think here's one that I can talk about. And it's been out in the press a lot. And I think people all have a common knowledge of the Bin Laden raid.
Yep. Everybody knows about it. Yes.
If imagery analysts, geospatial analysts, played a big part in that by watching that area day in and day out and develop pattern of life. So it's not just looking at a piece on the earth and say, hey, that's a building. But they also looked at pattern of life, human geography.
They put all of this together. And it showed that this facility probably was where Bin Laden was. And so it helps with not just identifying things like a scene, but behaviors and the way humans interact and human networks.
And so that's something that excites me that geospatial intelligence is involved in all of that. It's, yeah, definitely a lot to be involved in. So how has the evolution of technology such as satellite imagery and artificial intelligence impacted the way GEOINT is gathered and analyzed? What's happening is there is so much data.
And it's not just with classified systems. We have so much commercial satellites out there. You can get online and you can just Google a place on earth and you'll see it.
So we are in competition that our government, our country, we're in competition with even our own selves with just the amount of data that we have. Um, what worries me and I'm, I hope that AI is developed in a way where it can go through all of this data correctly and responsible. It would be, it wouldn't be good if we were rushing AI.
Like we need this, we need this, we need this. We'd have to be very deliberate and very careful with how we're going to structure AI to go through all of this data to make sure that we have standards, that it's appropriate, that it's correct, that it gets to the right customers. So AI is definitely something we all need to know.
I just hope that we have the best people on it that are going to make sure that it's the right algorithm, that it's done ethically. And so that's something that I'm kind of interested to see how that turns out. Well, I feel the same way.
Thank you. On that point, what are some of the ethical considerations that come into play when dealing with GOI, especially regarding privacy and security? That's interesting because, um, I was reading a little bit about the sedan conflict in 2004, the early 2000s, not the one going on right now. And, um, a famous actor, George Clooney, um, decided, hey, he wanted to be part of this and he hired, um, a satellite company or owns a satellite company, I'm not quite sure, but to monitor it himself.
And while he was able to identify war crimes and, and, and other things like that, ethical questions came up with how is he using this data? Also, it brings up the questions of watching, um, and monitoring people because he was, of course, wanting to, to watch the Sudan president. And so it starts to, you start to think, okay, well, necessary to monitor people that are bad and that will hurt the United States or hurt, you know, um, humanity. Um, it is kind of a strange thing that anybody could now start looking at anything, at anyone, and who's going to make sure that we're using this irresponsibly.
Um, and so it starts to bring up ethical questions like that and also who can buy it, who's, um, our privacy, how, how can we make sure that our privacy is being respected with all of this out there? Definitely very, very scary thoughts. So in your experience, what are some of the most challenging aspects of working in geospatial intelligence? As geospatial intelligence evolves, I think the enemy, and I say enemy just because I worked in, you worked for DOD as part of DOD for the listeners who aren't already. Exactly.
So it was usually a bad guy or a bad country or when I say bad, you know, um, something that we were concerned about. Um, and so as we develop our tradecraft, the person we're watching also could develop theirs, meaning they're probably aware of when coverage is happening, what we can see, what we, um, know. And so there's a lot of denial and deception efforts being made.
And so it can be challenging once you figure out a, uh, imagery signature or, or something and you go, oh, wow, this is it. The person on the other end can change it. And so you're constantly on your toes having to make sure that you know exactly what they're doing and what they could be doing to try to trick us.
And so there's a lot of, it's, it's like a defensive thing now. Not only are you looking, but you're also making sure that our tradecraft is protected and that we know what the person on the other end is doing, um, to make sure they're not hiding something very, very serious or something very nefarious that we will be able to see this. And so that can, that can also hurt comprehending of, of the situation.
Um, if, if there's these tactics going on. For sure. Definitely.
Very interesting to learn about things like the Thar Desert, how India was hiding everyone. Yes. Oh, the nuclear program that went on twice in the 70s.
And then again, in 98, 98, they, I, they did the, uh, nuclear testing and, um, some people say, oh, we missed it. We missed it. Well, it was kind of easy to miss because they were using denial and deception tactics.
And so it would have been really difficult. Now we know, but back then I, you know, I, I feel bad for that poor analyst because, you know, you, you think you know what you're looking at and all of a sudden, bam, it's different. They changed their, their, uh, their cards.
So yeah. Certainly. But moving forward to today, could you give us some examples of how GON has been used in current events? Well, of course the Russia Ukraine.
Um, um, I also know that, uh, we monitor for, you know, we, we warn we're, we're watching it. Um, watching things. And if there's anything unusual or something that's significant, we can prepare the president or prepare, you know, the nation like, Hey, there's something here that doesn't seem right.
And we really want you to look at, but also though geospatial intelligence, um, also helps with humanitarian. Um, they also help, um, be like with the Ebola crisis when we talked about, you know, geospatial intelligence helped the U S uh, military find, find an area for hospitals and roads and how to get to these places in Africa. Um, so a lot of good, you know, uh, the fires in California, you know, the, they will say, okay, this is how much has been damaged.
Um, so there's so much goodness that a lot of people don't know that geospatial intelligence is, is doing. Definitely a lot of, a lot of different applications for good and, and bad as we've discussed. So now let's talk about the current phase of your career.
First of all, congratulations on joining the Bush school. Thank you. What exactly motivated your transition from a very long career in the field to now working in academia? It wasn't as easy.
Um, it, I will say right before John got the offer to be Dean, I got my favorite job. I got my dream job. It was the job that I've been wanting to have for 25 years.
And that was the national geospatial intelligence officer for Africa, meaning that I was responsible for all the collection analysis over Africa and for our agency and continent. Yes. And I was really happy.
I felt like, okay, I made it. Um, and then John, um, this opportunity came up and John said, Hey, I, I, I got this position as the Dean. Um, and he asked me my opinion and I thought about it and something just hit me where I thought it is more important now in today's world, it is more important now to get to the minds of the new and, and upcoming student leaders, world leaders.
Um, it is more important for me to be here than it was to be in a job that, that I had worked for and I knew how to do. And I knew I would have been good at, but I also know some other people could have done it. Who has the opportunity to come to the Bush school and who has this opportunity to meet the future leaders and to talk to the students.
And so when, um, I was asked, I jumped on it. And so while hard, it was hard leaving my perfect job and, you know, John had a nice job. We both realized what a beautiful opportunity and, um, coming here, I know, and John always says this, that I am teaching the future president, uh, a future, um, chairman of the joint chiefs, um, speaker of the house.
I'm teaching them all right now. And it is such a great honor. That is a very incredibly beautiful perspective.
So with that in mind, what are you hoping to bring to the students at Bush in terms of your real world experience in GON? I need people to know that, um, any job in the IC, GON, humans, again, it's long. It can be frustrating. Um, it can be, um, upsetting if you don't, let's say you have an idea of what's going on and you realize either you missed it or you misunderstood it and you had low points in your career and high points in your career.
I really want the students to know that this is all very normal in a long career. You're going to have some good days. You're going to have some bad days.
You're going to, um, sometimes question why you got into this field, but I want the students to know that they have to continuously be training. This trade craft is very, very evolving. So you, once you get into it, you have to continue training and educating yourself.
You can't being a lifelong learner, right? Because it's going to change by, by like 20 years from your first day. Um, it's going to be different. And so that was something that shocked me when I came into the IC.
I just, I enjoyed very much looking at hard copy film on a light table, never knowing that 25 years later I'm going to have to know ArcGIS. I'm going to have to know the computers and all these other different remote, remote systems and things like that. So you have to always be learning.
And so I want them to know that. It's good advice for any human being in the world. Yeah.
So how do you see the role of GEOINT in shaping future policy and governance? And how are you preparing your students for that? That's a really good question. Um, pictures don't lie. Pictures don't lie.
And, um, I've learned that we all learned that starting with the Cuban Missile Crisis, pictures don't lie. And I think that will always be the bottom line when it comes to policy. Um, that pictures don't lie.
What I see, this is what's happening. We either have to make a decision. Do we respond to it? Do we not respond to it? Um, it will always be in the middle of everything because you can't do anything without putting it all together.
And that's what GEOINT does. It puts it all together. Um, that's something that's, it's easily understandable that you can, you know, tell your customers or, you know, the president of the United States.
Um, it's always there, always there to present the truth, if that makes sense. Yes. And so I think it will always, no matter how fancy things get or new sensors and all this kind of stuff, the bottom line is, is the truth is always there on that picture.
And you have the evidence to say, this is what's going on. So I guess in that point, how, I mean, how can you be so sure? I mean, it's fairly easy to manipulate photographs and images, satellite or on the ground, they can pretty easily be doctored. So how, you know, that's a, I'm glad you brought that up.
The people in the GEOINT world are very aware of that. And, um, we're, we're very aware and we're very on top of it. And so I know with the folks that we have, what we present to the customer is, is correct.
Um, that doesn't mean that people aren't trying to mess with it or manipulate it or whatever. Of course not. But that's a whole different trade craft to make sure that what we're presenting is safe.
Um, that's why I'm glad, um, there's space comp, because we do need, uh, military forces to protect everything we have up in the, up in the sky, uh, satellites, things like that. And so, um, that, that's a good, um, that would be a really good, interesting class would be how to protect all of this. And so, yeah, um, someone in the commercial world, or I'm just, you know, looking at things online, I, I, I wonder how do I know this is accurate, but I know that what NGA presents is accurate.
Because they have the network of sources and interagency contacts. And, and people that know what to look for. People that, yeah, it's definitely very helpful.
Thank you. So what do you think are the most important skills that future GEOINT professionals should develop? Well, I use, I use this book, uh, written by, uh, a really good, um, friend and mentor, um, Jack O'Connor. He wrote a short introduction to geospatial intelligence, and he goes through the five intelligence activities, envisioning, you know, uh, looking at the big picture, discovery, recording, comprehending, and tracking.
And if you really dive deep into what those are, and the book explains all of that, it'll help you become a very good analyst where you're able to, when you're, when you're discovering something, are you bringing in all of the data, um, when you're recording? How are you recording? Um, do you have enough data to actually record to make an assessment? When you comprehend, are, are you comprehending all at once? Or do you have like a delayed comprehension, incremental comprehension, or denied comprehension? And then the tracking, which is probably the most expensive, um, one, because there's so much data, and we have to get that out, um, and, you know, AI, and get that out fast. So I would encourage everyone to read that book, because it really does go into, I call it the art of, of imagery analysis. You, you do have to be curious, you have to want to know, you have to be like just hungry for the information.
Um, and, and that makes a really good analyst. Great. That's big.
Very great. Analysts come from all different walks of life, and all different skill sets, and that book does a great job of bringing them all, bringing them all together. And a lot of the analysts that we have, you have people that actually went to school with, for GIS or geography, but I've worked with, um, history majors, journalism majors, um, marketing majors.
It really, there's so many people that can do a really good job with this, with some training, but you just have to have that mindset of, I want to know, I want to know everything I can about this area, and you're just wanting to learn, and always updating your tradecraft, and be nosy, and hungry, and, and that, that any person with all those skills could make a good analyst. I wholeheartedly agree. And so how do you feel with all that, about the current state of education in Geo? You know, I never really, I, I never really thought about it until, um, this opportunity was presented to me at the Bush School, and it occurred to me that, yes, we have a lot of geography, we have remote sensing, we also have, you know, Intel, like human, and SIGINT, but no one, and a lot of colleges have all these pieces, but they don't put together geography, geospatial intelligence as one entity, and so as I look around, and, and, and research, I'm noticing that a lot of schools are developing this, so while geospatial intelligence has been around a long time, I feel like this is something that, that is starting to take place at universities, and I'm working with, uh, uh, USGIF, um, it's a foundation, Geospatial Intelligence Foundation, that works with standards, and making sure that whatever I teach is, is accredited, so we're working on that right now, because I want to make sure whatever I'm teaching is spot on, and as I'm doing this, I'm noticing other colleges are starting to want to do the same thing, because they know this is really important for their intelligence program.
It definitely is, it's, it is kind of crazy how all these separate pieces have been floating around, yes, only recently are they being put together, exactly, so now, moving into our final segment, looking ahead, what are some of the emerging trends in technologies that will shape the future of geospatial intelligence?