Tyson Popplestone (00:00.245)
with just more a general, like, well, I've got a little bit of an idea of where I'd like it to go, but if any rabbit holes do appear that we wanna run down, are you happy just to run down those?
Alex Korb PhD (00:10.316)
Yeah, sure. And I guess one question would be like, how much editing do you do so that
Tyson Popplestone (00:20.555)
can do as much as you need. it's what's going on.
Alex Korb PhD (00:22.542)
Oh, it's yeah. mean, I don't write. Okay. Um, okay. So that's just helpful. Cause some people are like, no, I don't, you know, just make it free flowing. And then I'm like, if I, you know, Say something wrong and then I correct it. Otherwise I'd be like, okay, well let's stop. Let me just say that again. And then you can, um, but yeah, the other question is, uh, just like about your audience and like what, like what their.
Tyson Popplestone (00:37.99)
Sure sure
Alex Korb PhD (00:52.216)
hoping for from the show.
Tyson Popplestone (00:55.211)
So I, do you know what Alex, I just switched over to a faster wifi network, so there should be no lag, but I, that means I cut you off for about five seconds there and I missed your question.
Alex Korb PhD (01:05.966)
yeah, just if you tell me more about your audience, like what are they listening to the show for? Like what are they hoping to get? Or what are they like?
Tyson Popplestone (01:16.487)
Yeah, it's a good question. I've got a diverse range of guests coming on here. However, health seems to be one central theme that I keep coming back to. I've had a couple of episodes with, I don't know if you know Russ Harris, the happiness trap. Yeah, so I've had a number of people here speaking about psychology in the brain, happiness.
Alex Korb PhD (01:33.41)
Yeah, yeah.
Tyson Popplestone (01:41.075)
you know, similar field to you. And those episodes seem quite popular. And so from what I can gauge from the stats alone is that is sort of psychology and health in general seems to be a real trending topic on the podcast in terms of exactly like those niche elements of health that they most.
Alex Korb PhD (01:54.36)
Right.
Tyson Popplestone (02:01.643)
connected with. just not 100 % sure but I know that it seems that when I'm following my curiosity around psychology, brain health and just health in general, those episodes seem to go pretty well.
Alex Korb PhD (02:11.426)
Right. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. And I'm glad you, you just started recording because I always assume when I join a podcast, they're just like recording and then I say something interesting and they're like, like, wait, let me hit record. I'm like, like tell me when to not say something interesting. So I don't accidentally say something.
interesting that you can't use.
Tyson Popplestone (02:41.777)
It's so good, well you're free to say anything interesting as of now, I have... I was gonna say, what a great problem to have in any conversation. You just let me know when to switch off interesting, but when you need me to be interesting, I'll just go back to my default.
Alex Korb PhD (02:46.018)
Well, now I can't think of anything. That's the problem.
Alex Korb PhD (02:57.998)
Well, I mean, what's funny is like I joke. It feels true, but like it's a it's a joke because like if you hear me talk, I obviously like to talk a lot, but I often feel like I don't I don't have anything to say if I'm just something like what do I want to say? Like or if someone like, you know about some topic, like what do you have to say about that? I don't know. I can say like one sentence.
But then if someone like asks a question or like says something I disagree with or someone's like, well, but like, can you explain that more? Then I can talk for like, you know, hours about it, but like it, it feels like I can say things in five seconds or like five minutes or 15 minutes, but like,
Tyson Popplestone (03:56.489)
Thank
Alex Korb PhD (03:57.44)
The middle ground is difficult, but oftentimes it's not. don't realize like what exactly I want to say or how important it is until I'm talking.
Tyson Popplestone (04:09.663)
That's so funny. So it's sort like you're just navigating your way through your thoughts as you're saying it.
Alex Korb PhD (04:15.382)
Yeah, well, I mean, it's it's really I think that and this is why I enjoy conversational interviews and like conversational shows. Because a lot of times I'm thinking about what I actually think about the question and like something new will like pop into my head and I'll sort of like be curious like, right, I haven't like.
thought about it exactly that way. And then I'll sort of like explore that more. Whereas I realized a lot of interviews there, they have their like pre-scripted questions and like they asked their question and like you give your sound bite. And then they asked their next question. I'm like, I'm not good at like 30 second sound bites. I've come to appreciate that about myself.
They're like, right, that's what makes me better at actually helping people. Then it's frustrating because it means at the moment I'm not as good at marketing or explaining succinctly how I help people. But I decided that's a problem to have than being someone who's like really good.
Tyson Popplestone (05:19.718)
Yeah!
Alex Korb PhD (05:43.328)
at marketing, but isn't good at helping people.
Tyson Popplestone (05:46.759)
True, it seems like a really good excuse for a foundation to a book or the beauty of these are these current podcast forms and it's almost a Meme I feel at this point but just for probably the last five years the only reason I've had a TV connected in my house is so I can watch YouTube videos that I like or so I can listen to podcasts that I like and the other day I can't even remember why I switched over but I was just curious to see how like the Australian mainstream news were were telling a story. I wish I could tell you what it was
But it was exactly what you said. You turned it on and it was 10 second sound bites. And it just felt so jolty and so unnatural. And it made me so grateful for this kind of conversation for the exact reason that you said, because I'm the same. I've probably got the opposite problem where my default is to waffle and I'm learning just to be more assist.
Alex Korb PhD (06:35.224)
Well, I think my default is to waffle as well. like, well, on the one hand, there's like this and the other hand, there's this and like not offend people. And really that's how you're trained also in science to recognize like answers are complicated.
And, you know, on the one hand there's this, but there's some other data that shows the other thing. And so we don't really know. And when I was writing the upward spiral, I wanted to make sure that it was rooted in science. And so how I was trained to communicate in science and, and in writing my dissertation and publishing papers, was like, that's how you communicate. And my brother, he's a couple of years old there.
he does like investor stuff with like biotech companies and he was like reading some of it. He's like, you sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, but yeah, but like it's complicated and like, nobody really knows the answer of like what's going on. And he was like, like, you're the expert, like, just take what you understand about it and like, say that.
Tyson Popplestone (07:40.425)
Ha ha ha!
Tyson Popplestone (07:52.427)
you
Alex Korb PhD (08:00.642)
And that's like, I was like, I just, just like take what I find authentically fascinating about neuroscience and how humans work and, you know, how you increase motivation and connection and focus and all of that wonderful stuff and happiness. And like, I genuinely find this stuff.
really exciting. So I don't need to be too scientific, like, because I like, I got a PhD, I find it fascinating, like, it's going to be scientific if I'm talking about it, because that's what I find interesting. And I don't need to try to make it interesting. I just talk from the place of where I am genuinely interested and fascinated about
Tyson Popplestone (08:46.667)
Yeah.
Alex Korb PhD (09:00.482)
this stuff, but which also means that like, don't have full control of like the thoughts that pop into my head and where I'm going. And that though, I realize is I think probably one of the reasons why the book resonated so much with people and why it sold so many copies of that people really resonated with it. Cause it's like authentic. Like this is like, I was
One of the reasons I got a PhD, because I was like, why can't I just understand why sometimes you're really happy and focused and everything seems easy and sometimes everything just falls into a spiral and seems really difficult. why is it that some people have an easier time being really happy all the time and others get stuck in depression and anxiety? What is going on? And I...
in getting a PhD like finally came to an intuitive understanding of that question. I was like, oh wow, I found this so helpful. then, and what's funny is related to what I was just saying about, I feel like I don't have anything to say. Like a publisher, I had a blog at the time, a publisher was like, hey, have you thought about writing a book? And I was like, oh, I don't know. Like, what would I write a book about? Like, I don't even know. Like what?
Tyson Popplestone (10:26.055)
Thank you.
Alex Korb PhD (10:26.67)
And it took like several tries. They're like, well, what about yoga or sounds like, I guess I could write about you. What would I say about yoga? And then like, wrote a whole like book proposal about that. they were like, we don't, the marketing doesn't like it. And I was like really pissed off, but it was actually the best case scenario because that was just like the first idea that popped into my head and one that they were excited about. I was like, well, but if I,
Tyson Popplestone (10:50.123)
Yeah.
Alex Korb PhD (10:55.406)
Like if I wanted to write a book, if I want to spend time writing a book, what would I want to spend my time on that feels really important for people to know? And I was like, it was like this, same questions that like I was excited about. And even that process of writing the book was helpful in me understanding it better because. Yeah, I mean, it's complicated.
And it's but like it's not it's not about memorizing all of these different brain regions and chemicals. Like you don't need to memorize everything. You just need to understand like a few key things about the human brain in general, not to just to like learn science for its own sake. Although I find that fascinating.
But like, because it will help you understand yourself better. So like, it took me a while to realize, like, I sort of understood that intuitively, but I realized like, right, that's the goal is to understand yourself better and your own unique brain and how it works. And the starting point is like understanding like, Hey, here's how the brain works in general, but it's all about a journey of self.
discovery.
Tyson Popplestone (12:23.849)
Yeah, I always find people who have that philosophy in life so much more interesting. Like nothing turns me off more than going to someone who just has every answer to every question and they're certain that they're right. Only to find out a year later that new data has come out and everything they've said before was wrong, but they're still somehow right. It does make me like the arrogance that you come across with some experts I find.
really unattractive and almost repulsive to whatever subject it is you speak about.
Alex Korb PhD (12:55.308)
Right. Well, it's really challenging and particularly with like doctors and public health professionals because like people are turning to them to be like, okay, we need a diagnosis. We need an answer. Tell me what to do. And like, if you're a doctor, let's say you have like 15 minutes to see someone, they're like suffering. You're like,
They're probably not going to do whatever you say anyway. Like you need to come up with the simplest answer that are actually going to do. and that's, know, usually writing a prescription because if you went to your doctor and you're like, I'm depressed, I'm anxious. And they're like, well, you know, maybe you should try an exercise program or do, you know, eat healthy. Like I can't, if I could do those things, you know, I wouldn't be coming to you. Like doctors see themselves as lifeguards.
Tyson Popplestone (13:37.493)
Thank you.
Alex Korb PhD (13:54.552)
preventing you from drowning. And I think that's how people see doctors. They don't have the luxury of giving you a holistic approach. That doesn't mean they're wrong. They're just constrained in the time and what people are looking for them. But also, they don't have the luxury of saying, well, yeah, we don't know.
like people need a definitive answer from them. so they're going to take the best. Yes. Based on the science there and, your test measurements and what you're saying. And then there's going be a definitive answer one way or the other. As a neuroscientist, I got a PhD. So I didn't, I didn't go to medical school. went to graduate school in neuroscience. You're trained as a scientist.
And in science, it's not about giving a quick diagnosis so that you can take action. a lot of times it's just asking more questions and being like, well, we don't really know the full answer yet. need to collect more data or look at it another way. And that's a luxury that.
Tyson Popplestone (14:59.211)
you
Alex Korb PhD (15:23.502)
A lot of physicians don't have a public health professional. So it's like very easy to like, uh, well, they're just writing prescriptions all over the place. It was like, right. But like they are, they're constrained in a way that just trying to understand the brain doesn't have the same constraints, the problem with science is often in the way that it's communicated because.
sort of by definition, anything at the forefront of science is stuff that people disagree about. Like if everyone agreed about it, then it's like, well, then that's not the edge of like where they're doing research. But if you try and communicate that in a precise way, you often sound like you don't know what you're talking about.
Cause you're like, well, I don't know if I would go that far. That's a pretty strong, like maybe there's some influence in this, but we've got to control for this other thing. And really there's this other research that blah, And people like, what's the answer? And so like to be more accurate in your scientific description is often very frustrating for people because they, they don't like if you try and basically communicate something in as much complexity as is.
As science, you know, is at the forefront, then only people who are at the forefront of science in that field can understand what the heck you're talking about. and so if you try and communicate too much nuance, you ended up communicating nothing at all. And then the people who are uninformed, but confident and, dominating the conversation. And so that's when I was like writing the.
book initially, I was like, okay, I have to simplify it to the point where it's like easily digestible and actionable. Not like don't simplify it to the point where it's wrong. but like, for example, you know, we understand that the earth goes around the sun.
Alex Korb PhD (17:51.118)
And okay, that like helps us predict a lot of, you know, things about, about, you know, the movement of the stars and whatever, and why the sun sets and rises where it does. But like, that's not actually true. The sun and the earth co-revolve around some shared center of mass while they're both moving.
through space at incredible speeds. It's just that like, additional complexity is like irrelevant for like, explain it like why is the sunrise over there? so in science, we use simple models all the time, because that helps explain the bulk of what's going on. And like,
Where people get stuck is when they're like, we're trying to understand all of the specific nuances that nobody understands. And it's like, well, how is that relevant to your lived experience? And because like, I was trying to struggle with these questions and also understand the science. was like, Oh, like, you don't need to understand everything about the brain. Just need to understand like a few key things. So you've like an intuitive sense of how it works and like what you can do.
to change your brain and what you can't change about.
Tyson Popplestone (19:21.195)
Yeah, it's a good point. It's so interesting. Yeah, like the idea of having some fundamentals in place to build off is like a really good launch pad. I was thinking as you started giving that answer that if I had like a brain tumor and I went to see a brain surgeon and I said, what do we do? And he goes, you know, maybe like maybe surgery. You know, what do you mean maybe surgery? What do you mean?
Alex Korb PhD (19:47.138)
Right, well, it's like, well, it's complicated. You know, there's these glial cells and these other cells. We don't really know. have to, like, it wouldn't give you a lot of confidence.
Tyson Popplestone (19:54.283)
Exactly. So like that authority, I guess, I hadn't really thought of it from that perspective. That authority is really important. You want that competence or that confidence at least, you know, from the expert you're going to see. But yeah, for the sake of conversation, I think was my point. It's sort of uncomfortable or not interesting to me at least when it's like, this is how it is and this is established and like no questions allowed.
Alex Korb PhD (20:21.28)
Right. Yeah, no, totally. And, that also is a lot of times where people are expecting that of experts. And so like the experts like, well, people aren't going to listen to me unless I like say it definitively like this. And they try. Like they overstate like what science knows. And I just think it's really helpful for.
people to understand how science really works because science is a process. And yeah, if you're trying to, figure out the best. You know, treatment on you're going to have a hundred people come into your office and you need to know like, what's on average, what's the best treatment or you have, you have to make a decision about millions of.
people. Well, you do scientific studies on groups of people and, and thou those are great predictors of how like other groups of people will work. But one of the limitations of science, comes when you start talking about individual people, because you can do a study on like a thousand people and be like, someone's
depressed or someone's anxious, like, what should we do? Should we give them a medication and which medication should we give them therapy? Should we do something? Well, like you can find a result like, on average, this is the effect. But like, that's not saying that every individual who gets that will have that effect. And that's why I think.
understanding this process so important because, this is where I want to be clear. I sometimes like sound like a science, skeptic or conspiracy theorists. Like it's not that science is wrong. It's just a science has limitations. It's the best, most amazing tool that we can have to understand like how things work. But if you want to know about like you.
Tyson Popplestone (22:28.843)
you
Alex Korb PhD (22:49.056)
Individually, specifically, like, what can I do right now to be happier and more focused and more motivated? Off the answer is like, well, we don't have enough data because like, well, we can do it on a thousand different people, but like. Like an average of a thousand different people is not the same as you, but where science is the most helpful is like, well, that's the starting point. Like, if you know nothing else.
About yourself and some random doctors know anything about you. Well, like, yeah. Okay. Well, this is what it works on most people. So like, try this, like how much exercise do you need people like, well, you know, the public health recommendations are this, or like, we can do studies on people say how much exercise do you need? How much sleep do you need? Well, like you can come up with a number, but that number is, yeah. You got your blinds that that number is just like an average of a bunch of people.
Tyson Popplestone (23:40.483)
Because my face is starting to look like an angel.
Alex Korb PhD (23:48.312)
So if you don't know anything about how much sleep you need, about how much exercise you need, that number is the best place to start. But don't fool yourself into thinking that that number is, is somehow more important than the data that you are getting when you try to follow that. Because here's the other piece that sounds like I'm
you know, conspiracy theorist or science scenario is like, there are some things that science is much better at than you are. It doesn't matter what you feel like your blood pressure is or what you think your 10 year heart attack risk is, or how immune you feel.
to measles or COVID or whatever, like you're, you're not able to perceive those things. So your opinion is pretty much irrelevant. Like, well, we can do it on big populations of people and maybe there are some things that we could measure about that. I can measure your blood pressure. can measure your antibodies. can based on populations, I can estimate your 10 year, you know, heart attack risk, but.
Tyson Popplestone (24:55.627)
you
Alex Korb PhD (25:15.692)
When it comes to things that you can perceive, your subjective experience is a really crucial part of the equation. So, I can go to the doctor and say, you know, I fell while I dove while playing ultimate frisbee. So haven't I played ultimate frisbee.
Like I now, you know, my shoulder has my neck hurts or whatever. was in a car accident. My neck hurts. can do an MRI and look at your neck and be like, well, yeah, there's nothing wrong with your neck. It doesn't look like there's anything wrong with your brain. didn't crack it. No amount of like objective scientific measurements can tell me that I'm not.
in pain, they can, they can tell me, or suggest the mechanism, but behind why I'm feeling pain, but this is one of the reasons why things like pain or anxiety and emotions aren't often well treated by a medical approach because it's not entirely subjective. mean, it's not entirely objective.
and so like I can be in pain, even if like the measurements say I shouldn't be in pain or I can feel depressed or anxious, even if my life looks great. this is because most people, even most physicians like aren't taught about like the subtle nuances.
Of how your brain actually works. And so where I think science, the next piece of science can be most powerful for you as an individual is not simply learning about the basics and averages of like, well, how much, how many, know, how much sleep do I need every day and how much exercise do I need every day? Like what science done and other people can tell you is like the
Alex Korb PhD (27:41.314)
baseline from there though You can use the process of science To get a better answer for yourself like okay the average person needs 8.4 hours of sleep when they're 24 years old. Okay. Well, I'm you know 45 years old and need less sleep. Maybe I only need you know, 7.9 hours of sleep. Okay, I'll set a stopwatch and get like I can try that
And then that's an experiment I'm doing in my own life. And then something will happen. I will either find like, yeah, that's perfect. Awesome. Great. Thank you science for like cutting through all the BS and giving me the answer right away. Or I'll find like, no, I feel like that's not quite enough sleep. Okay. Well, maybe you're just the kind of person that needs more or like, that's wonderful. But I can't because of all this other stuff going on in my life or like, thank you for telling me I need.
that much sleep, but like my anxiety is keeping me up awake at night and like, okay, right. You as an individual are complex and you are not a well-controlled scientific experiment. like science and other people can, can give you very precise answers and be really well-controlled, like, you can't just always translate that directly from a scientific study into your life because you are not.
a well-controlled scientific experiment.
Tyson Popplestone (29:11.445)
For sure. I have this exact problem with, so I do stand up comedy and, is that right?
Alex Korb PhD (29:16.206)
I used to do stand up for like five, five years. Yeah. You should be funnier and I should. This conversation should be funnier.
Tyson Popplestone (29:21.287)
my gosh, okay, so you fully appreciate where I'm going. I often think that on this show, I'm like, as soon as I drop that I'm a stand-up comic, people go, come on, where's the joke then? We'll lift our goal from now. One of the things that does my head in, or one of the things that I find so frustrating is when I first got involved in stand-up comedy, I thought, okay, I'll listen to how the greats perform stand-up comedy. And I feel what you're speaking about in...
Alex Korb PhD (29:32.724)
that's...
Tyson Popplestone (29:48.595)
Relation to sort of brain chemistry and just physical health I find is a conversation in the comedy world as well So classic example was Jerry Seinfeld and Kevin Hart had a conversation on Kevin Hart's Comedy podcast called gold mines. I think it was and they said alright it kev goes. Alright Jerry. You're a great. I'm a great let's talk about our process and Jerry goes I sit down and I write every single day. I've got notebooks filled with jokes and ideas
and I've got empty pens and I sit at the same place at the same time each day and I write this material. And Kevin's like, Jerry, you're making me feel real bad here, And he's like, what are you talking about? Like, you're one of the greats. He's like, what do you do, Kevin? And Kevin's like, dude, I got words like dog's balls written in my notebook and uncle's legs. And he's like, before I get up on stage, I'll quickly open my notebook and I'll just scroll through.
And he goes, then something happens in my brain when I get on stage, I just remember exactly how all of those jokes go and where they fit. And I thought, isn't it funny because the fundamentals of being a good comedian is obviously stage time and write new material and be observant. Some people like Bill Burr, they get up there on stage with a premise or an idea and they'll just talk it out and they'll find their feet. I think Louis CK is the same.
Alex Korb PhD (31:08.014)
Mm-hmm.
Tyson Popplestone (31:08.287)
And then Jerry Seinfeld's like, nah, I'm getting up there without all that extra fluff. I'm just gonna eliminate all the excess and I want it just to be punchy and to the point. And I go, well, you're all considered greats. And it seems that like these little variation, this thing that you're speaking about, okay, there's the fundamentals, but there's also you as an individual. And that's what makes it like a real complex thing. Cause you're like, who am I?
Alex Korb PhD (31:30.102)
Right, right, right. Because there's the there's basics fundamentals of like what makes a joke or like what makes things funny. And so like, you know, you could you could have people talk about and rate in the scientific study was this funny or not funny and like you come up with words. Well, these kinds of words tend to be funnier than those kinds of words. So like, OK, great. I'm just going to
include more of those words in my act and it's like wouldn't be funny at all because like we are not averages, we're individuals and there's a limit to what you can learn about yourself from studying averages. So that's why I'm like science is an amazing tool for studying like groups of things or things where
your subjective experience isn't the main observation.
but like it runs up into a limit when we're talking about things like, well, what's funny? Well, that's inherently subjective. And if I tell a joke, I noticed this when I was like doing comedy, like that, you know, if the audience doesn't laugh, like some people get like really angry and they're like, that's a funny joke or whatever. like, what? Like no amount of you.
telling them that's a funny joke, like, but you can think it's funny and like previous audiences think it's funny, but like, they didn't think it was funny. Like, so, but you could objectively know that it's funny because it usually kills like in other rooms. And yet you're getting this feedback right now that they aren't laughing, like, which is correct. And it's helpful to be like, both are correct. Like your subjective experience.
Alex Korb PhD (33:34.646)
It's correct. Their subjective experience is correct. It's just important to realize like, different people are different and therefore we can't like, we can start with looking at, how is everyone all the same? Like, what are the things that like make us all human? Like, what are the things that all stand up comedians have or whatever? Like that's a great place to start.
And science is really good at answering those kinds of questions, but like, okay, now I'm going to go up on stage. Should I try to be more like Seinfeld and like write everything out? Or should I try to be more like someone else? I don't like, I don't know. Have you ever tried to stand up before? Well, no. Okay. Well, you have to try it. And then like, yo, you'll get a sense. Like there's not a handbook to know.
ahead of time. And that's why I think, you can like, but like, I think sometimes when people hear that they're like, well, so science can't tell us anything. It's like, no, like science can tell you like the fundamentals of like, Hey, here's how it works. And if you don't start with that, then you're like, Handicapping yourself, like, well, at least start with like the basic fundamentals of like what makes people.
happy and motivated and focused, that won't give you the entire answer, but it'll give you a better starting point. And from there, you can iterate and learn more about yourself and how you are different from the average.
Tyson Popplestone (35:20.819)
Yeah, you said you did comedy for five years. for you, what stopped you?
Alex Korb PhD (35:28.238)
It, uh, the, the cycle analysis of it is, um, in high school, my girlfriend was a few years older than me. And so I was like, you know, a little insecure and she had dated a guy who was like several years older than her before me. And so was like insecure about that. And I remember her telling me how funny he was. And I was like, Oh, well, like you think I'm funny too, right?
Tyson Popplestone (35:48.991)
Yeah.
Alex Korb PhD (35:56.014)
And she was like, yeah, I mean, like, but you're not that funny. And I think that sort of like got in deep, uh, you know, into my emotional circuitry and memory circuitry. And I in college tried improv comedy and I was never good at it. I think because I was like trying too hard to be funny, but like stand up worked.
better because like I like writing. I'm like much more like Seinfeld in that sense. Like, I like writing. You think about it. And then it's like, then you try it out. And it was just like super fun. realized like, because I like attention and like, like writing and I like attention. I like people laughing. Like, so there are many needs and things I enjoyed that it filled after about five years.
I, I had like a regular show that like I went to perform that in LA and I was like occasionally doing some other gigs and I sort of had a choice to make. To like go to that next level of like, okay, well, do I want to, you know, try and go on the road? Cause that's like sort of you've got to do and like spend three nights in San Francisco and then two nights in Portland. And then, you know, three nights and whatever, like, and I was like,
I don't want to do that. And I wasn't having as much fun doing the standup as I had been before. And I realized like, my, I never had a dream to be a standup comedian. Like I just did it cause it was like fun. And it's like, it's not fun anymore. So if the entire, like you shouldn't quit something just because it's not fun unless the only reason you were doing it.
is because it's fun. But what I realized is like, I wasn't just doing it because it was fun. I was doing it to prove to myself that I was in fact funny. And over that five years, to like, you know, counteract what my girlfriend had said in high school. And from my experience, I realized like you could be
Alex Korb PhD (38:24.65)
extremely funny and yet sometimes people aren't going to laugh. You can't like read too much into, know, if no one's laughing, okay, maybe like take a note, but like, if like 90 % of the time people are laughing at this joke, okay, that's a joke. so even the funniest people like aren't going to always make everyone laugh. So you can't take it personally if someone doesn't laugh and
I performed in all kinds of contexts, like in front of, 500 people and at bars where nobody's listening and in front of like, you know, five people, it's like, you know, the small audiences often like way more stressful. but what I finally had convinced myself of is like, I'm funny. Like that doesn't mean I will always make people laugh. Like it accepted.
Tyson Popplestone (38:57.675)
.
Tyson Popplestone (39:05.141)
Yeah.
Alex Korb PhD (39:20.226)
That as a limitation, like, doesn't mean I've, everyone's gonna laugh at everything I say, but I noticed that like, and this is a much broader realization that I use with like my coaching clients all the time now is like when someone says something that bothers you or criticizes you, only bothers you because it has a, it resonates with something that you already.
Believe or fear about yourself. And I was worried, like I wasn't funny and I had to prove that to myself. And at some point I proved it to myself. And so I no longer had to do standup comedy and I was only doing it just for the fun. And I was like, Oh, but it's not fun. Oh, I great. had this free. I could do other things with my time. I started coaching ultimate Frisbee, which was like, at the time it was more.
fun, but like it, like one of the things that I realized is that, know, when you've healed a wound or when you've actually accepted some limitation about yourself is when someone criticizes you or accuses you of, you're not funny. didn't think that was funny. Like I like, I just, I don't.
care. Like some of like, like that's, imagine the experience of your life. Maybe I should have a funnier show. I'm the standard community. you're like, right, like, you know, you're funny. So like, you don't have to try to prove it to people all the time and every situation. And often when you are trying to prove something and you haven't accepted it about yourself, then it often
Tyson Popplestone (40:50.699)
Yeah.
Alex Korb PhD (41:19.028)
Makes you less funny or less of a good leader or less like appealing to be around because people subconsciously sense that like tension and anxiety. actually about the subconscious tension is through something called the mirror neuron system. Like when people are tense, even if like you don't consciously realize it, like you can be affected by it. Like your brain perceives.
Tyson Popplestone (41:30.527)
Yes. Yes.
Alex Korb PhD (41:48.922)
there's something going on. Like this person sounds really confident, but like also the words they're saying, or they seem a little tense and like your brain processes that subconsciously, and then you feel a little tense and it changes your breathing rate and your heart rate. and you couldn't necessarily. label that if you're not aware of yourself, but it's why, like, we just sort of like, don't like being around some people, and how you can like feel the energy.
Tyson Popplestone (42:13.983)
Yeah
Alex Korb PhD (42:19.186)
In a room, like we described that as like, you know, vibes are, know, your vibrational energy, but like, no, it's just, it's not magic. It's like, you have these brain circuits that perceive these things and react and communicate to your emotional circuitry. And that triggers your heart rate and your gut and all this stuff.
Tyson Popplestone (42:43.423)
Yeah, was, I mean, I sort of relate to what you just said then. I had flashbacks to like an old yoga studio that I would go to sometimes. And sometimes you would go there and for whatever reason, like you knew you were there because for me at least, I wanted to decompress, I wanted to relax, I wanted to feel good. And there were some people were there because obviously they wanted to just further this chill vibe or whatever, to steal your word. But you would speak to those people and it was like they were playing into.
what they wanted to be like. So like, yeah, man, I've just been relaxing and taking it easy. But you're looking to their eyes and you're like, why do I still feel like you're about to stab me? Like what is happening here? Like there's a, there's a real disconnect between the words you're saying and the feel that I'm getting from you. I don't like the miss.
Alex Korb PhD (43:21.101)
No.
Alex Korb PhD (43:27.148)
Right. Well, actually, I feel like that's a very similar thing to the vibe from a lot of stand-up comedians. Like, some people are there because they're just authentically funny and they've accepted themselves and they're just authentic. And other people have learned enough of the tricks that they're trying to perform some other version of themselves and desperately hope that no one actually discovers that they're funny.
I'm there, they're not funny. And, that is, you know, kind of making them less funny, but like you could fake it for a while, but eventually like, well, you'll probably burn out. And I think with, with yoga studios, it's sort of interesting because like often the people that feel the greatest need to like do something to chill out.
Tyson Popplestone (43:57.483)
Yeah, no.
Alex Korb PhD (44:25.538)
are the people who are like the most anxious and tense. And if they don't like that about themselves, then they're constantly trying to like, basically avoid being themselves and thinking that like yoga can somehow fix me where I can escape myself. And that's actually why one of the, think the most important things to recognize about the brain and
and things like depression or anxiety is that there's nothing wrong, quote unquote wrong with the brain in depression or anxiety. There's no brain scan or EEG or lab test that someone can do to tell you, you have depression. you have anxiety. you're just lazy and you need to snap out of it. Like.
That's what I went to grad school for. It's gotta be something objective you can measure. so I say that to help people, stop blaming themselves and thinking like, there's something broken or something wrong with me. But it is also important to emphasize like, but these issues where we get stuck, they, they are based in the brain. Cause sometimes you go too far the other way and be like, just
there's nothing wrong with it. Just snap out of it. What's wrong? know, why can't you just step out of it? Like just manifest it and whatever. And it's like, now the, the, they're caused by the brain. It's just not usually helpful or accurate to describe that as your brain is broken. Like if, you know, I I'm out of shape.
And I'm, you know, racing against some Olympic sprinter. Like I'm going to lose by a lot, but like my body's not broken. It's just not functioning as optimally in that specific situation as there's, like, we all have the same, you know, arms and legs, unless you specifically are someone, you don't have those. then maybe you might have to alter the form a little bit, but like,
Alex Korb PhD (46:48.244)
Even if I'm, you know, injured, like my, my leg is hurting. It's not broken. Like it's just now my leg is a little tight, my, know, and that's why I can't run as fast as possible. And that's sort of like, where it's helpful to think of as the brain is like, it's not like you're missing some part of your brain or, you know, you have too high a level of this neurotransmitter too low of a level. Like it's a dynamic.
process and It's it's not it's sort of like the tuning isn't ideal for the specific circumstances that you're in so like for example some people worry a lot some people don't worry as much some people are really decisive some people are very indecisive
There's nothing inherently wrong with any particular way of being. the way that you are is caused by specific brain circuits and how they're tuned. the activity in your worrying circuit and the, you know, the size decision-making circuit like might be different between different people. And there's nothing inherently better or worse about one way or another. But, if you're, you know, the activity in your worrying circuit.
Is very high and you're very indecisive and then that starts to impact your indecisiveness. So then you don't take action and then you, don't resolve the worry and then you're likely to get stuck. But like if you were very indecisive, but you didn't worry. No problem. Like very easy to be happy. And even that tendency of like your worry exacerbates the indecisiveness, which
Activates the worry more and creates this potential downward spiral. Even that isn't a problem unless you have like a high pressure job where you have to make a lot of decisions So is it is it really accurate to say like there's something wrong with you like well, no, maybe you just shouldn't have this job so one solution is We'll just get a different job and then boom no problem. But if you're like,
Alex Korb PhD (49:12.152)
This is my dream job. okay. Well then you can't fundamentally change the way the human brain works. You can't even fundamentally change like who you are, but you don't need to. You just need to like turn down the volume of like your worrying circuit in very specific situations or like increase like your decision-making circuit. So you take action.
more than just thinking about it more whatever it was like a very small little tweak in either your mindset or what you're doing and that starts to change the tuning of these circuits so they don't get stuck in the same patterns.
Tyson Popplestone (49:59.02)
Yeah, it's such a good point. I feel like I relate to that on a personal level because whenever, for whatever reason, I'll go through like a period where I might feel, I would say generally I'm fairly high energy, like fairly optimistic. I would say if like the average person would say, hey, Taz is pretty happy. I'm confident in that. But I would say the periods of my life where that's dulled down and I can really feel it and.
Maybe I'm lacking motivation or enthusiasm or whatever. I find a lot of the time, the first thing that I've let go is I've just allowed like negative thoughts to take over. For me, that seems to be my kryptonite where I've just bought into one particular story about a particular situation. And I've just like sat there and I'm like, all right, this is my reality. And I've had a lot of success with thought monitoring and going, all right, like, is this actually true? Like how else could I see it? And I noticed when I'm consistent with that, a lot of the time,
Assuming my life situations, you know and not die or bad or whatever I'm like, okay I've got quite a capacity to actually change how I feel about wherever I'm at But sometimes I'll feel overwhelmed by what the right lever to pull might be It's like I don't need an exercise. Is it sleep? Is it thought monitoring? Am I not making enough money? Am I you know what I mean? Like if I spend enough time with my kids and be with my kids too much It's like my gosh, like I don't really know
even where to begin this little discovery of what I might be feeling or how to improve.
Alex Korb PhD (51:23.33)
Yeah. And that's, that's extremely frustrating. And what I realized though is like, that's the process of science. Like, yeah. Like you, the, the emotions that you're getting are the data telling you that something, something's not right. Just sort of like, if I was doing a study on weight loss, like have people step on the scale.
Tyson Popplestone (51:32.651)
Hmm.
Alex Korb PhD (51:52.994)
There's a number, right? That's just, is what it is. Why the number is that way is based on a million different factors. Well, like how much water have you been drinking? What diet have you been on? What are your genetics? What are like, how did you sleep last night or whatever? Like, but where people often go wrong is they get stuck on the theory.
And ignore the data. Like, well, this, this diet is supposed to work. but there's something wrong. This number isn't changing. like, I'm doing something wrong. and when it comes to things like you're describing, the data is your emotions and people often, particularly smart, successful people, they're like stuck in the theory. Like this, this doesn't make sense. Like,
I'm exercising, I have a good life, like, there must be something wrong with me. I shouldn't feel this way. When in fact, like, well, it's irrelevant what you like should or shouldn't feel. Like your body's trying to tell you like, this is how you are feeling. And the fact that we sometimes
feel down or tired or unfocused for no reason is just part of having a human brain. It's kind of like how having a human body, like you're an athlete. Why aren't Olympic sprinters setting personal records every single time they run? Well, because like, you know,
Only some of the times they're functioning at the absolute peak and like some of the times they're feeling like really tired and can't do anything. And most of the time they're somewhere in the middle. And like, have some control. Like, well, am I eating right? Am I sleeping right? Am I training? Am I doing all these things? Like those are the knobs that you can change. And those knobs, by the way, change the activity and chemistry of the circuits that we're talking about sleep, social connection, self-compassion.
Alex Korb PhD (54:19.192)
Goal setting, identifying your thoughts. but you do not have full and total control or ability to predict exactly what you're feeling. And so like when I'm working with coaching clients, that's often one of the hardest things to accept is that it's this middle path of, it would be so much easier.
If it was just black or way, like either, well, you have no control and you can't do anything or no, you have full and total control. And those, like the full and total control leads to what I think of, I call the Silicon Valley view of happiness where it's like, no, no, you just need to optimize. Like, there's something else. like you're not doing this and you download another app. You need to ask AI, you need to get a supplement. And it's like, you keep looking and it's like this manic need to be.
Tyson Popplestone (55:09.233)
Thank
Alex Korb PhD (55:15.31)
happy all of the time, which creates its own problems. And the truth is like, yeah, sometimes you can do all of the right things and you just feel kind of down and that's perfectly okay. But if you're not doing any of the right things, then, and you feel down, you don't
Tyson Popplestone (55:40.181)
Hmm.
Alex Korb PhD (55:44.738)
No. is this one of those times I feel bad where I should do something about it? Or is this one of those times where I feel bad? Where? Nope. There's nothing to do. And I just wait a day and it goes away. and that's why, okay, well you start controlling for the variables that you have control over. say, okay, well, you know, am I getting enough?
sleep. I getting enough exercise? I always think there was a, Snickers commercial a few years ago with Betty white, the, you know, the actress, comedian. And she's like yelling at like a football team or something. You guys aren't tackling or whatever, you know? And then someone's like, Hey coach, I think you, I think you're hungry and they have a Snickers and they like hand her a Snickers and she turns into like the football coach and he's like, sorry. I was just, I was just hangry.
Tyson Popplestone (56:37.843)
Hehehehe. Hehehehe.
Alex Korb PhD (56:42.36)
And it's like, yeah, sometimes you feel down and the answer is a stupid answer. Like you just forgot to eat breakfast. like you just kind of generally go through. You're like, well, what are the hubs that I can do that generally help my brain function? Knowing nothing about myself. start with the basics of what normal people do. Okay. Well I get eight hours of sleep and get exercise. I can start to adapt that like, Ooh.
I need more sleep or I need less sleep or, you know, I don't need as much exercise as other people, whatever. Like we can start to change some of these things, but like, once you're doing all of those different things and then. You, you just feel down. You can be like, okay, well, maybe it's there's nothing to do about it. And, um, it reminds me of a great quote from game of Thrones.
where, uh, Daenerys, you know, I don't know, I spoil anything, but she's like trying to go off into battle and, uh, her advisor is like, you know, I don't think that's a good idea. And she's like, what would you have me do? Nothing. And he's like, yeah, sometimes nothing is the hardest thing to do. And for most smart, successful people who are used to like, okay, I just need to do more and more and more. Do you, that's a great default mode.
Tyson Popplestone (57:47.371)
Thank
Alex Korb PhD (58:11.202)
to be in, but you cannot fully control everything about your mood. You know, so you could be doing everything 95 % correctly and you can control 95 % of it, but there's still that 5 % fluctuation. And if you try to control that 5%, the stuff that you don't have control over, then you end up like banging your head against the same wall over and over and you end up getting in your own way.
Instead of just being like, maybe I'm just feeling down. Like maybe I'm just tired. Okay. And you just accept it and move on with your life.
Tyson Popplestone (58:45.739)
Hmm.
Tyson Popplestone (58:53.077)
Funny how much just that acceptance can actually alleviate so much of the extra tension that is otherwise there.
Alex Korb PhD (58:59.074)
Yeah, well, because like anxiety, what I've realized is so our emotions are.
wired into a deeper circus of the brain and like the, amygdala and hippocampus. they're all like, very much connected to our, physiology, like our, our survival. That's why I like, when you have strong emotions, triggers your heart rate to go up and your adrenaline and all this stuff. and that's very helpful. but now I just forgot where I was going.
With that, what was what was I just saying?
Tyson Popplestone (59:38.545)
I was talking about the acceptance of an emotion rather than the fight against it.
Alex Korb PhD (59:43.658)
Right. Yeah. We'll see. Like we have these emotions and they react, based on things that are important to us that are potentially out of our control. Like that's just what they evolved to do. Like there's, you know, a waving in the grass and you have to, was that a lion or not? Like, you don't know, but like,
You have to react to the possibility. If you under react to the possibility of danger, then you're putting yourself in more danger. So the, like I remember going on Safari once and like you drive past these like herds of zebra or antelope and like, you know, there's a hundred of them and like five will like stick up their heads.
Like when you're like 100 yards away and then like when you get closer, like a few more will like stick up their heads and most of them ignore you. Well, is it better to be the zebra that sticks their head up or is it better to be the zebra that it keeps eating? Well, it depends like how many lions are around. Like you're the one who keeps looking up like, well, then you're less likely to get eaten, but you're more likely to miss out on chewing.
grass and I feel like a lot of people judge themselves because they are anxious when in fact, like, well, now there's benefits to being anxious. And when people have anxiety, this was losing my train of thought before, when people, in the face of uncertainty, we have emotions. Uncertainty can be excitement and certainty can be anxiety and nervousness or whatever, like, but
Emotions are around the fact that there are things important to us that we may or may not be able to control. And usually when people fall in the anxiety side of the spectrum, they're like trying to control things that they don't actually have control over. Like maybe if I can just make everyone laugh, then I'll be loved and accepted for who I am. Like, and it creates anxiety because you can't force people.
Alex Korb PhD (01:02:11.17)
to laugh. And so therefore then when they don't laugh, then you get angry, whatever, you know, on the other side of things in the face of uncertainty, you could just be like, can't do anything. So I should just give up. And that's like what depression is like, and where people often get stuck is like, they try to control everything that can. And then it's like exhausting. And then they're like, their brains like, well, screw it.
Tyson Popplestone (01:02:11.467)
Thank
Alex Korb PhD (01:02:41.55)
Just like, just give up and you can't do anything. then like depression is actually your brain trying to protect you because like in the face of things you can't control, stopping, trying to control them reduces anxiety, reduces frustration. And the problem where people are is like, they just
Tyson Popplestone (01:03:02.635)
is safe.
Alex Korb PhD (01:03:08.098)
go all the way here trying to control everything. And then they're like, shit, can't do that. Go the other side. And it's like in your car, you're driving. start to go too far. One way, like, I'm going to hit a wall. Go the other way. I'm going to hit on coming traffic. It's like, well, it's helpful to be able to turn your wheel left and right, but not jerk it all over the place. And so, that just helpful to realize like with people who are anxious.
Tyson Popplestone (01:03:11.989)
Thank
Alex Korb PhD (01:03:37.166)
They often, yeah, that's a great, you know, you're trying to control a lot. That's great, but you need to figure out like, what are the things that you are holding onto that you were trying to control that you don't actually have control over? And it might be different than what other people have control over or can do. Cause you have different limitations. What are the things that you are trying to do? Hold onto an acceptance. What acceptance is.
It's not accepting that like things always have to be this way or resigning yourself to whatever. It's just, Oh, I can't control that. And therefore your brain can disengage from trying to control things that you can't control. And therefore you can use your limited brain power to focus all your time and energy and effort on the important stuff that you can actually do something about. And it reminds me of just a, um, one of the yoga teacher I had.
Tyson Popplestone (01:04:31.551)
Yeah.
Alex Korb PhD (01:04:36.376)
who, who, who phrased it nicely. He's a clear boundaries, infinite freedom. Like, yeah, you have limitations once you, once you recognize, except like what those limitations aren't great, then like you are free to do everything else because it's not your limitations. This is why there's me talking now. It's not your limitations that most hold you back or most limiting. is your refusal.
to accept them as limitations. And so you are holding on to this thing that you can't actually control and you are preventing yourself and you're preventing your brain from optimizing and strategizing about all the important stuff that you can actually change.
Tyson Popplestone (01:05:24.341)
So good, so good. Alex, I know you've been talking about this for a long time and we're not gonna cover everything in an hour. So I'm not gonna steal your whole evening and try and attempt to do that. But man, this has been so much fun to have you on.
Alex Korb PhD (01:05:35.884)
Yeah, well, no, it's great talking with you. And I appreciate your genuine curiosity. I don't know if we answered anyone's questions about anything there, but that's so they can read the book if they want to know more.
Tyson Popplestone (01:05:50.069)
Exactly, that'll be linked in the description for everyone who's keen, for sure. Awesome, man.
Alex Korb PhD (01:05:53.742)
Yeah, I mean, I guess like the only thing I want to end with like reassuring people is like
The brain isn't magic. Like if you're not as focused as you want to be, or you're not as productive as you want to be, it's got something to do with what's happening in your brain. And people could say like, no, it's, know, it's my stressful job or I'm, you know, I'm trying to do stand up and the audiences are terrible or whatever. Like,
Well, those things out in the world, like that might be true, but what makes them a problem, what creates stress and anxiety and the problems that you have is how your brain reacts to those things. And people can understand that intuitively, which is like why somebody else can have the same stressful job or the same, you know,
uninterested audience and they get better results and don't feel so stressed and overwhelmed because their brain is processing it differently. Now, some of that, you can change yourself to be more like that person. Some of it, but like Kevin Hart can't change himself to be too much more like Jerry Seinfeld. They're just like fundamentally different people. You can learn like, maybe sometimes.
I should prepare more and, know, but like, you can't fundamentally change. are, but the faster that you can accept and appreciate who you are, then you stop holding on to these things that you can't control. And I call it like you start to reprogram those circuits because like, if you're like, no, I'm stressed out because I have too many decisions at work or too much stuff to do. Well.
Alex Korb PhD (01:08:00.5)
Either that stuff, and this is what I work with my coaching clients on, it like really just comes down to two things. Like either that stuff is important or it's not important. And if it's not important, okay, great. Like, great, you can stop worrying about it. Or is it controllable or uncontrollable? Cause if it's like controllable and important, like, that's the stuff that you should focus on.
Your emotional circuits and your habits circuits might distract you with other stuff, but you can be like, thank you brain for reminding me that like, I need to get groceries, but like right now I'm, you know, doing my job or whatever. And, sometimes what you need to do is just realize like, this thing might be important, but I don't have full control over it. And so.
I don't have to accept it, but like, still won't be able to control it, but now I'll just be mad and pissed off. I don't know you're getting in my own way that control it. So like, don't have to accept the things you can't control. It's just the easiest and fastest option to stop holding yourself back and start to unlock your, your peak performance.
Tyson Popplestone (01:09:24.437)
Beautifully said. Thank you, ma'am. Yeah, you too. Cheers. I'll cut that off there. That was so much fun. That was a really great chat. Yeah, thanks again, man. That was so in-
Alex Korb PhD (01:09:26.86)
You're welcome. Great talking with you.
Alex Korb PhD (01:09:34.23)
Yeah.