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"The Kibbitz," is a podcast hosted by Melissa and Andrea, two middle-aged Jewish moms/wives/women from the Midwest, who see a lack of representation of their demographic in the media -- and they have A LOT to say. Writing buddies who spent more time talking than writing is where the podcast was born. Their voices, their viewpoints -- and those of their peers -- are really worth sharing, and the best way to do it is through The Kibbitz.
Inperson participant 2 (00:05)
Hey, I'm Andrea. And I'm Melissa and welcome to The Kibbitz Mishpocha it's a big deal. So exciting. Yes. so we are interviewing Sarah Hurwitz. many people might know about her from writing the books "As a Jew" and here all along. just a fun personal story. when "As a Jew" came out, my rabbi ran out of his office
Lonny Goldsmith (00:05)
Hey, I'm Andrea. And I'm Melissa and welcome to the Kibbitz. Mishbocha, it's a big deal. So exciting. so we are interviewing Sarah Hurwitz. many people might know about her from writing the books as a Jew and here all along. just a fun personal story. when as a Jew came out, my rabbi ran out of his office.
Inperson participant 2 (00:30)
and said to me, Have you read this yet?
Lonny Goldsmith (00:30)
And said to me, Have you read this yet?
I want to talk about it. We have our own special book club of one-upping each other who's read which which book first. He was quite disappointed when I had already read it, but we did have a great talk. so Sarah is here. She was speechwriter for President Barack Obama and head speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama.
Inperson participant 2 (00:33)
I want to talk about it. We have our own special book club of one upping each other about who's read which which book first. He was quite disappointed when I had already read it, but we did have a great talk. so Sarah is here. She was speechwriter for President Barack Obama and head speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama,
most recently written two books exploring Judaism and Jewish identity and antisemitism. So, Sarah, we've read your books.
Lonny Goldsmith (00:53)
Most recently written two books exploring Judaism and Jewish identity and antisemitism. So Sarah, we've read your books.
I assume I've heard many of the speeches you've written, but before we get into all of that, please introduce yourself in the way you would like us to know you.
Inperson participant 2 (01:01)
I assume I've heard many of the speeches you've written, but before we get into all of that, please introduce yourself in the way you would like us to know you.
Sarah (01:10)
That's so nice. It is such a pleasure to be here today. You know, I think something that I just want you and your listeners to know is like I, you know, I grew up like a lot of American Jews, where with very little Jewish background, little Jewish education, almost no Jewish practice in my home. You know, we Judaism for me was like four holidays and five generic values, like don't lie, cheat, steal, kill, and also help the poor. Like it it was not a really big part of my identity, and it really wasn't until I was thirty-six years old
That
I actually discovered Jewish tradition. So I think, you know, when people hear that I've written books about Judaism, they they assume I'm some scholar or I've, you know, grown up with this amazing Jewish education and tradition, I I really, I really haven't. And I I think I want people to know that at any age you can come back to this. At any age you can turn toward it and start learning. And it really is a lifelong process, one which I'm s very much still in the midst of.
Lonny Goldsmith (02:05)
your your first book, which was "Here All Along", tells the story of rediscovering that Judaism as an adult, not converting or discovering something entirely new, but as you said, realizing this incredibly rich tradition that had been sitting there basically waiting for you to find it. and I think w when I
Inperson participant 2 (02:05)
Your your first book, which was Here All Along, tells the story of rediscovering that Judaism as an adult, not converting or discovering something entirely new, but as you said, realizing this incredibly rich tradition that had been sitting there basically waiting for you to find it. and I think w w when I
read your words, a lot of what you said spoke to me, th the way I was raised, with you know, the the the foundational holidays, the the moral values.
Lonny Goldsmith (02:25)
read your words, a lot of what you said spoke to me, th the way I was raised, with, you know, the the the foundational holidays, the the moral values.
Inperson participant 2 (02:34)
And like you, I feel like as an adult I've come to realize that it is so much more than that. So can you share with us a little bit about your journey and what did you discover that you hadn't understood about Judaism while you were growing up?
Lonny Goldsmith (02:34)
And like you, I feel like as an adult, I've come to realize that it is so much more than that. so can you share with us a little bit about your journey and what did you discover that you hadn't understood about Judaism while you were growing up?
Sarah (02:48)
Yeah, you know, I given my very minimal and kind of uninspiring Jewish childhood, after I became a bat Mitzvah, I kind of just walked away from it. Right. It just I really felt like nothing to see here.
I walked away from it and I it was funny, twenty-five years later, at the age of thirty-six, I broke up with this guy I was dating, and I was very lonely and very anxious, and I happened to hear about an intro to Judaism class at the local Washington DC Jewish Community Center, and I just thought like, I
Cultural Jew, which by the way, I was not. Cultural Jews actually know and care about Jewish culture, history, language, music, arts, food, Israel. That's a gorgeous way to be Jewish. I I was a contentless Jew, right? I knew nothing. But I thought, I should know about my my heritage. Sure, I'll just sign up to fill time. And what I found in that class absolutely blew me away. You know, this wasn't just a religion of four holidays and five generic values. This was thousands of years of wisdom about what it means to be
human.
from millions of my ancestors. If there was deep wisdom here about how to be a good person and how to lead a worthy life and how to find profound spiritual connection. And I just thought to myself, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I did not see any of this in the you know, the Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur services I went to or the Seder I sat through or the Hanukkah party that I actually kind of enjoyed. It was fun, but I saw none of this. And I remember just thinking like, where has this been all my life? And that's what inspired me to take another Intro to Judaism class and then
To start reading hundreds of books and taking classes and studying with rabbis. And I think that I, like, you know, like many American Jews, misunderstood Judaism is a Protestant-style religion, which is not what it is. Right? Jews are a peoplehood, family, nation, civilization, tribe. You can there are lots of words for us. We have a religion, which many Jews engage with, many do not, and they are still just as much Jews as as any as any other Jew. I didn't really understand that we had this entire civilization, and once I started.
Engaging more deeply with that civilization, which is with its incredible wisdom and history, and with this peoplehood of Jews here in America and around the world.
was just it it totally opened my eyes to this world of wisdom that frankly was just a lot deeper than the kind of you-do-you girlfriend wisdom that you know you is on offer at the in the self-help aisle of the bookstore. Right? The like you know the the ethic of modern American law is do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt other people too much. Right? As long as you don't destroy people's property or physically harm them or infringe on their civil rights. Do what you want. Not a
Which is fine for secular law. I I wouldn't want it to be more than that, but you don't hear a lot about courage, wisdom, compassion, self-sacrifice, generosity. And we focus a lot in our cultural ethic on the self, right? Self-exploration, self-reflection, self-expression, self-care, all of which are great. Big fan. But what about self-transcendence, self-restraint, self-sacrifice? What about, you know, the world that exists beyond the self? What about things that are higher that call to us? And in Jewish tradition.
I I found all of that and so much more.
Lonny Goldsmith (05:55)
Hmm.
That's amazing. Thank you so much. I like the idea of talking about first of all, we Jews are authentic Jews, no matter how we label ourselves, so that there shouldn't be a barrier to entrance. You aren't
Inperson participant 2 (05:59)
Thank you so much. I like the idea of talking about first of all, we Jews are authentic Jews, no matter how we label ourselves, so that there shouldn't be a barrier to entrance. You aren't
Sarah (06:06)
Yes.
Yes, I want to retire
the phrase bad Jew from like human language. I don't I
Lonny Goldsmith (06:15)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (06:15)
I really do not like that phrase and it breaks my heart when people call themselves that because I used to too. It that's it's not about being a bad Jew. It's like are you a Jew who's had access? Right? Are you a Jew who's found a way in? Are you a Jew who has actually been exposed to the whole breadth and depth of the the tradition, right? That to me is the question, not are you a good Jew or bad Jew. I don't engage with with that kind of language.
Inperson participant 2 (06:37)
It's
how do
Lonny Goldsmith (06:37)
How do
you practice as a Jew? So I I think about the people who get their Bar or bat mitzvah and then they're like, peace out. I've learned what I needed to learn and I am so Jewish. my husband. I I am so Jewish, I've got this down, now I'm going to
Inperson participant 2 (06:38)
you practice as a Jew? So I I think about the people who get their Barabat mitzvah and then they're like, peace out. I've learned what I needed to learn.
Sarah (06:39)
Yeah, how do you engage?
That was me. Right.
Inperson participant 2 (06:51)
And I am so Jewish. my husband just waved at that one too. I I am so Jewish. I've got this down. Now I'm going to
go live my life and avoid the scratchy wool suits and the, you know, air-conditioned rooms, et cetera. What do you say to them? How do you move forward and s and and and invite them back in?
Lonny Goldsmith (07:01)
scratchy wool suits and the you know air-conditioned rooms, etc. What do you say to them? How do you move forward and s and and and invite them back in?
Sarah (07:12)
I mean, first I say like I understand, right? That was my story too. You know, I just, you know, as a the unfortunate thing is is like as a kid, it's actually kind of, you know, it's hard to expose kids to the deep, try you know, transcendent, amazing wisdom of Judaism. I think you can definitely expose kids to the joy, the community, the love. Like there's so much great stuff for children in Judaism. But I think that oftentimes just when they're ready to start learning the really deep, radical, insightful, life-changing wisdom.
of Judaism is when they stop learning. And you know, so I don't I don't judge anyone who who
feels that way, but I also just like lovingly, you know, you would never say, Well, I think that you know, I think I know enough about the indigenous peoples of my country after my sixth grade social studies class. Or you know what, I I actually think I know enough about Islam after my world religions class in seventh grade. I think I know enough. I'm now I I know enough. It's like we would never do that to any other civilization or people, right? We understand that your childhood education on something is not deep. It's what you can grasp as a child. Judaism, like these other people
And and traditions is this vast, deep, rich, complex tradition, and you can't stop engaging with it when you're 12 and think that that's the Judaism. It's not, that's pediatric Judaism, as a rabbi named Larry Hoffman puts it. And you know, what I had to do, and that was I was a pediatric Jew 15 years ago, and I actually had to grow up, which involved like, you know, taking an intro to Judaism class, reading an intro book, starting to experiment with different types of Jewish practices, communities, you know, we have to.
Kind of do that work of becoming adult Jews. And I don't blame people for not doing that work because they don't even know there's something to be found. If your only point of contact with Judaism is a Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur service that you don't really understand or find boring, plus a kind of mediocre seder and a Hanukkah party, why would you think that there is thousands of years of wisdom from millions of your ancestors that will transform your life?
So, of course, I don't blame you for walking away. And that's the challenge, right? Is showing people that no, no, no, there is something here for you, I promise.
Lonny Goldsmith (09:19)
I think education
Inperson participant 2 (09:19)
I think education
Lonny Goldsmith (09:20)
in so many ways is a lifelong pursuit, like something that you don't just finish when you graduate either a secular school or religious school. And and so I love your approach
of
Inperson participant 2 (09:20)
in so many ways is a lifelong pursuit, like something that you don't just finish when you graduate either a secular school or religious school. And so I love your approach of
Sarah (09:22)
Yes.
Inperson participant 2 (09:30)
kind of coming to that as an adult and gaining even more. Now a lot of times I feel like education can be wasted on the young. We I see that more and more as I get older because you know, as we grow and our maturity grows and we want to absorb and learn more.
Lonny Goldsmith (09:30)
kind of coming to that as an adult and gaining even more. And I a lot of times I feel like education can be wasted on the young. We I see that more and more as I get older because you know, as we grow and our maturity grows and we want to absorb and learn more,
I I love that you applied that to to to your Judaism. And I and I I kind of relate to that. Do you feel the same way? I feel like what we're doing now is our own way of pursuing it. Our own way. And when I
Inperson participant 2 (09:44)
I I love that you applied that to to to your Judaism. And I and I I kind of relate to that. Do you feel the same way? I feel like what we're doing now is our own way of pursuing it. Is our own way. And when I
started at our the synagogue I'm currently in, the rabbi asked me to read Torah. And I hadn't read Torah since my bat mitzvah. And it was terrifying. And after I did that, I was like,
Lonny Goldsmith (09:57)
started at our the synagogue I'm currently in, the rabbi asked me to read Torah. And I hadn't read Torah since my bat mitzvah And it was terrifying. And after I did that I was like,
I need to study more. And that for me was my own like pick your own adventure of Jewish learning. And you write in your second book of about the rabbi who once he found out about Jewish learning was never bored again.
Inperson participant 2 (10:12)
I need to study more. And that for me was my own like pick your own adventure of Jewish learning. And you write in your second book about the rabbi who once he found out about Jewish learning was never bored again.
And that's what's happening. There is always another book to read. there is always at this point a really funny thing to watch about Talmud on Instagram because we are so techie.
Lonny Goldsmith (10:27)
And that's what's happening. There is always another book to read. there is always at this point a really funny thing to watch about Talmud on Instagram because we are so techy.
Sarah (10:40)
Right, right. I love
I mean I love that because it and you know, there's not one way to do it. If you are a reader, amazing, read books. If you're a listener, amazing, listen to podcasts, lectures. If you're a hands-on person, amazing. Have a hands-on Jewish experience. If spirituality is your thing, amazing. Institute for Jewish Spirituality or Halev. They have week long silent Jewish meditation retreats, classes. If you're a kind of learning arguing Jew, amazing. Hadar,
Hartman institute, like there's just there's so many ways to do this. I I I refuse there there is no one right way to engage. There are millions of right ways and so I think it's really about finding the way you learn and engage best and just diving in that way.
Inperson participant 2 (11:23)
And I think it's also making the Jewish community joyful and welcoming so people don't think, that's not gonna be smart for me or safe for me. What do you say to someone who's like, I I was a Jew, but that is not my thing. I don't wanna be involved. Like it's challenging in today's environment as well, because it is so heavy sometimes.
Lonny Goldsmith (11:23)
And I think it's also making the Jewish community joyful and welcoming so people don't think, that's not gonna be smart for me or safe for me. What do you say to someone who's like, I I was a Jew, but that is not my thing. I don't wanna be involved. Like And it's challenging in today's environment as well because it is so heavy sometimes.
Sarah (11:45)
It's so
I I t and like you know what I would want to do is I would want to ask questions like what what was challeng you know tell me more about that like what was hard what was painful what didn't work because oftentimes there are ways to find something different, something that does work. And more importantly, like what do you yearn for? You know, what's missing for you right now? Is it community? You know, are you feeling kind of lonely or disconnected? Is it wisdom? Are you just like what does this all mean? What does it mean to even live a purposeful life? You know, is it spiritual connection? Is it a sense
Of wanting yearning to connect with something beyond yourself. I mean, this tradition offers so much. So I'm always kind of wanting to know like, what do you yearn for? And that's probably where I'm gonna start with someone. You know, I do want people to read an intro book. I mean, here all along, my first book was really meant to be that first book where you can step deeply into the tradition, but everything is explained. Right? I want it to be totally accessible, but not simplistic and not like how to. I want it to be much more why to. And so that's I kind of want people to step in there, and then once you have that.
background then it's like okay now you can start your own path and journey.
Lonny Goldsmith (12:50)
And and then in your second book, which was as a Jew, you kind of took a a a different approach. And I really I I appreciated this. You wove together Jewish history, antisemitism, and your own experience, along with your work as a chaplain. And that came about, my understanding, was during COVID. And which I think for you, and I I don't want to put words into your mouth, but perhaps, you know, fulfilled that
Inperson participant 2 (12:50)
And and then in your second book, which was as a Jew, you kind of took a a a different approach. And I really I I appreciated this. You wove together Jewish history, antisemitism, and your own experience along with your work as a chaplain. And that came about, my understanding, was during COVID. And which I think for you, I I don't want to put words into your mouth, but perhaps, you know, fulfilled that
needing some connection or deeper meaning in a challenging time.
Lonny Goldsmith (13:16)
needing some connection or deeper meaning in a challenging time.
we'd love to know more about why you chose that structure and how did your work as a chaplain change the way you thought about Jewish identity?
Inperson participant 2 (13:20)
we'd love to know more about why you chose that structure and how did your work as a chaplain change the way you thought about Jewish identity?
Sarah (13:28)
It's so funny, you know, you're absolutely right, it was during COVID. You know, I my first book came out in September of 2019 and I was on book tour for about six or seven months and then the pandemic hit, obviously it was canceled, and I had a lot of time on my hands. And I was very moved by all the news articles I was reading about these heroic healthcare providers and hospital staff and chaplains, and I just you know, I really loved the idea of being present for people in times of struggle and I I just thought that was a beautiful thing to be able to do. And so I started
the training and you know it's interesting ironically that that training led to my next book because it's it's funny when I told people I was training to be a chaplain my friends were like are you still Jewish you have to be you have to be Christian for I was like no no it's interfaith but they were right in that the word chaplain it's it's a Christian word and I found that the training while interfaith it often kind of assumed things that were more Christian were universal you know things like prayer was
defined as
Like prayer is I'm going to pray out loud spontaneously for this person in their presence. So, you know, God, please heal so and so, this patient here beside me. You know, she's struggling with this cancer, and may her family walk with her and God, and like, and I'm just making it up from my heart spontaneously, and that is a gorgeous way to pray. And certainly, Jews can, of course, pray that way for each other. I've just personally never really seen one Jew pray for another Jew that way. I wouldn't say that's a common form of Jewish prayer, but you know, I I kept being told, No, that's prayer. You pray for all.
patients that way. Like my Muslim classmate was like, actually we don't really they're like, it's prayer. It's like, okay. And I I kind of was like, that's interesting. And I began to just think about the ways in which my identity had been very my Jewish identity had been very much shaped by living in a majority Christian country. You know, even the idea of spirituality, which I had always assumed that's just universal, right? Every tradition believes the body is sort of carnal, material, kind of degraded, right? It's something that you're trying to escape for a kind of heavenly spiritual realm.
It's not a Jewish idea. At all.
You know, read the Torah. There's a lot in there about our bodies, about how we treat them, about how sacred they are. We're not trying to kind of transcend this degraded body for something heavenly and spiritual. That's just not. But I'd thought that was universal. And I began to just reflect on how how I'd sort of been handed these keys that I thought were universal keys, but they really weren't. They really weren't keys that could unlock Judaism. And so I I I felt like wow, that's really shaped my identity. And then I kind of took a deeper dive into history and I began to see.
Unfortunately, 2,000 years of historic Christian anti-Judaism that had very much kind of you know defined Christianity in some points against Judaism. Ideas of Judaism at you know Jews as being very, very powerful, depraved, unspiritual, unloving. It was a very negative portrayal of Jewish tradition. And you know, fortunately in in recent decades, you know, the major Christian denominations have really worked hard and disavowed that historic anti-Judaism. They've done really deep work on that, but that legacy
That 2,000 year legacy, it really did still shape the way I thought, whereby I kind of thought, I thought, I kind of believed that the Torah was kind of violent and vengeful, that the Jewish God was not loving, that you know, Judaism was a religion of law, not love. And like, those are very old Christian anti Jewish ideas. They're not true. None of them were true. And that began, that sort of set me on this journey of just really re examining my childhood and early adulthood Jewish identity, which was this apostle.
apologetic,
kind of humiliating identity, you know, in which I would say, you know, I'm Jewish, but I'm not that Jewish. I'm not that Jewish. You know, I'm I'm just a cultural Jew. You know, social justice is my Judaism. But like why "Just a"? Right? What what what if I was that Jewish? You know, what what if Judaism was my Judaism? What like was that a problem? Right? Why why was I always kind of doing that? Diminishing, degrading, you know, and I my second book, as a Jew, is really an answer to that question.
It's helping us understand the ways that as American Jews, our identities have in many ways been infiltrated and warped by centuries of anti-Judaism and antisemitism, and also by our own totally understandable and well-attentioned efforts to escape that persecution by assimilating and kind of erasing ourselves.
Lonny Goldsmith (17:47)
That gets me to this next question. After reading both of your books together, I came away with a sense of
Inperson participant 2 (17:47)
That gets me to this next question. After reading both of your books together, I came away with a sense of
loss and honestly anger about how we've lost a lot of our inheritance as American Jews and forfeited them, or we never had it, because generations of assimilation sort of polished off the rough edges, and we became so polished that we lost our knowledge and our stories.
Lonny Goldsmith (17:53)
loss and honestly anger about how we lost a lot of our inheritance as American Jews and forfeited them or we never had it because generations of assimilation sort of polished off the rough edges and we became so polished that we lost our knowledge and our stories
and even the language to express who we are.
Inperson participant 2 (18:14)
And even the language to express who we are,
we're an ahm. But that was never given to us. We predate ideas of race and religion. And we didn't have those tools entering a new time of antisemitism. How do you see as a Jew part of this reclamation?
Lonny Goldsmith (18:17)
We're an alm. But that was never given to us. We predate ideas of race and religion. And we didn't have those tools entering a new time of antisemitism. How do you see as a Jew part of this reclamation?
Sarah (18:34)
I mean, I think you are right on, and this is you know, this was a a part of history that I really dove into and that I found absolutely heartbreaking. You know, I think it's important to understand that there was a moment in Western Europe in in the early 18th century or the early 19th century where Jews made a decision. And I want to be clear that not all Jew, you know, not all Jews have their their heritage in Europe. Many Jews have their roots in Africa and Asia. So this is I'm really talking about just Ashkenazi Jews, but that's relevant because most Americans have their roots
In Europe, so it's sort of relevant to America, but to be clear, this is not a universal Jewish experience by any means. You know, in the early 1800s in Europe, you know, as people were beginning to get the rights of citizenship in these European nation states newly forming, you know, there was a real question about well, wait a second. Can these Jews be Germans or or Frenchmen? Or are they just Jews, member of some separate nation who won't actually be loyal to our modern nation state? And Jews, very understandably, they actually
wanted the rights.
citizenship they wanted to be able to have secular professions go to secular universities and really thrive in a in a in the secular world and so we kind of made this decision to try to redefine ourselves as a Protestant style religion to say like no no no no we are not an ahm meaning like a a kind of a tribe a a peoplehood a family we're nothing like that we're actually a religion just like you guys you know you go to a church we go to a a Jew church and we're actually going to make our Jew church look like yours look stained glass
Pews, we're all gonna sit quietly, you know, you w worship God in your church, we worship God in ours. You have the old testament. We do too, 'cause we we actually we actually invented it.
The problem is that, you know, in kind of jamming that Protestant cookie cutter into Jewish tradition, we unfortunately got rid of a lot of the beating heart of our tradition. You know, the Torah, which is the first five books of what Jews know as the call the Tanakh or the Hebrew Bible, Christians refer to it as the Old Testament. But the that that was the beginning of our textual tradition. It was not the end. And for 2,500 years we have been reinterpreting, debating all the stuff, what is in the Torah. So when the Torah
As an eye for an eye, you know, we later reinterpreted that to understand that if you put out someone's eye, you had to compensate them monetarily. You could not put out their eye. You know, it's just like the US Constitution. The original version had some really brutal stuff in it about women, about black people, like really ugly, racist, you know, women couldn't vote, people, you know, people were considered property. I mean, awful stuff, and thank God we have reinterpreted. We have amended. We have actually, thank God, we don't live by that anymore. Jewish tradition is similar, but you know.
We
kind of de-emphasized that post-biblical textual tradition because it didn't really have a Christian parallel. And we also lost a lot of our more visceral and embodied traditions, you know, in an effort to be kind of civilized and classy. We, you know, there were things that we used to do, like when you learned that a loved one had died, or at that loved one's funeral, you would perform an act called Kriya, whereby you would actually tear your shirt. It's a really visceral kind of it's a visceral action designed to just express
You're just almost feral grief, right? Like you are just grieving, and Jewish tradition respects grief. Jewish tradition creates space for grief, and they say to you, like, you are so devastated. Yeah, you're actually gonna tear your clothing to express this. And we actually transform that into a tradition whereby they hand you a dainty little black ribbon and you delicately tear it. And it's like, yeah, that's not that's not the tradition, right? Like Jewish tradition is a land and nature-based tradition. You know, whatever you think of the modern state of Israel, the land of Israel.
Has been central to our tradition from the very beginning. For centuries and centuries and centuries, we have turned towards Jerusalem to pray. We use species from that land in our holiday celebrations, right? The etchog, the lulov, the ram's horn. Like this is this land is really part of who we are. And it's not, again, it's not a Protestant style religion. It's something very different. It's a peoplehood, a civilization, a land and kind of nature based religion. This is just, it's just very different. And I think in our very understanding.
Attempts to escape persecution and to be accepted, we wound up losing a lot of this. And I was actually telling a bunch of Israelis about this, and one of them said to me, That happened to us. And I was like, No, no, no, that's not. And he said, No, Sarah, that happened to us too. And I thought about it for a moment, and I he was right. You know, if you look at early Zionist thinkers, they're often quite contemptuous of traditional Jewish religion. They have a feeling.
Like, you know, our passive rabbis are kind of waiting for this Messiah to come and rescue us, we have to reject that. That's just superstition, it's nonsense. We have to go and save ourselves and found a state. You know, which I I happen to agree with the founding of the state part, but in the kind of effort to leave behind a sense of a religion that that wasn't working to keep Jews safe, we lost many of those traditions. So, you know, I I often find that modern secular Israelis you know know as little about Jewish tradition as many American Jews do. And that is a loss that I think both.
of us, both of our our populations are now wrestling with
Inperson participant 2 (23:45)
I agree. And I I wonder about how if we had had that knowledge, if we would have been able to confront the current antisemitism differently, if we had knowledge of ourselves as connected to the land of Israel, and not as just a nice little people of a religion, like people of my faith, because it's it's significantly more than saying faith.
Lonny Goldsmith (23:45)
I agree. And I I wonder about how, if we had had that knowledge, if we would have been able to confront the current antisemitism differently, if we had knowledge of ourselves as connected to the land of Israel, and not as just a nice little people of a religion, like people of my faith, because it's it's significantly more than saying faith.
Sarah (24:09)
Yeah.
Yes,
I I really I want to just so lean into that because I think you know I want to say two things. I think what worries me a little bit is because so many Jews kind of misunderstand Judaism as a kind of Protestant style religion of social justice or tikkun olam they might look at the eight million Jews in Israel and think, like, well what do I why should I have anything to do with them? Like I many of them don't practice this particular religion that I'm practicing. You know, which is sort of like if you said to
Catholics in America, hey, this really terrible thing happened in Brazil, you have to care about it because it's a majority, you know, Christian or Catholic country, they would look at you like you're nuts. Right? Just because we share an ideology with these people doesn't mean we have some particular obligation to them. And they're right, right? That's the that's the ethic of ideology or religion. But Judaism is not just a religion, it's it's a family, it's a peoplehood, right? Sort of so you know, the Jews in Israel, they're not my co-religionists, they're actually more like my mom. And that that involves a different level.
Of obligation to them. And so I think in our confusion about what Jews are, we've kind of lost sight of the fact that we are a people and there's only 16 million of us. That is like the size of like the fourth or fifth largest city in China. We're a Chinese city. I can't begin to emphasize how utterly tiny we are. I also want to say, you know, I think you're really right that in not having this knowledge, this learning, it does make you vulnerable to the lies that other people are telling about us. Because I'll say fifteen years ago
know, when my Jewish identity was basically a massive gaping void with a few stupid ethnic jokes kind of rattling around in it, if someone had come to me and said, Well, Judaism is violent and vengeful and not loving, or Israel is a colonial Nazi apartheid, blah blah blah state, what would I have said? I
I like Seinfeld, ha ha, bagels are good. Like what what would I have said, I probably would have believed them because when you don't know the Jewish story, you will believe the stories others are telling about us. And I think that gets to what something that the early Zionist thinker Ahad Ha'am spoke about, which was the danger of general agreement, which is when societies around Jews come to a general agreement about how awful the Jews are. So in medieval Europe, there was a general agreement, and this is so insane, but this belief that Jews were murdering
Christian babies and baking their blood into matzah. Like it was called the blood libel. It was obviously an insane lie. And but everyone
Europe believed this. This was a very you know, highly believed idea. Except for you know who didn't believe it? Jews. Because Jews knew their tradition. They know murdering is a top ten prohibition. They know that we are strictly forbidden to drink blood. So I don't think there were many Jews in Europe who were sitting around being like, I don't know, guys, do you think people are like no one thought we were killing babies. We knew our story. We didn't believe the lies. And I think today so few of us know our story that it's very, very easy to believe
the hateful stories that others are telling about us.
Lonny Goldsmith (27:07)
I think
Inperson participant 2 (27:07)
I
think also that a lot of narrative can be amplified through social media, through, through voices that really don't have a true grasp on facts. And I I you know I worry that that younger generations perhaps are vulnerable because they don't have that foundation, and then they're hearing it and they're bombarded on all these different ways from this like influx of information. And
Lonny Goldsmith (27:07)
also that a lot of narrative can be amplified through social media, through through voices that really don't have a true grasp on facts. And I I you know, I worry that that younger generations perhaps are vulnerable because they don't have that foundation and then they're hearing it and they're bombarded on all these different ways from this like influx of information. And
Sarah (27:32)
It's so you know, it's so tough, especially
like look, if we don't teach our kids history, right? If we don't teach them about the fact that Israel is a country. I think it's a miraculous and remarkable country, and it's a country which was founded like many other countries in the mid twentieth century. You know, it's it's actually quite a Zionism, as my friend Dara Horn says, is actually quite a typical story. It's a story of nationalism and partition and this is how countries were founded back then. whatever you think of that, and there's certainly you know
It's very difficult, awful process. But this is a very typical story.
Lonny Goldsmith (28:03)
I think we see that. Yeah.
Inperson participant 2 (28:04)
So we see that. Yeah.
Lonny Goldsmith (28:05)
I I think that you're
Inperson participant 2 (28:05)
I think that you're
Lonny Goldsmith (28:06)
correct that we need to see the history of Israel and the Middle East.
Inperson participant 2 (28:06)
correct that we need to see the history of Israel and the Middle East
in context. And we also have to be able to deal with the complexity that is really hard to portray, you know, in a few letters in a tweet or of even in a in a small reel. There's thousands of years of history that we're still studying. And I think part of the reason we started our podcast after October 7th was that women like us
Lonny Goldsmith (28:11)
in context and we also have to be able to deal with the complexity that is really hard to portray you know in a few letters in a tweet or even in a in a small reel. There's thousands of years of history that we're still studying. And I think part of the reason we started our podcast after October 7th was that women like us
were feeling unrepresented. We were worried about our kids going out into the world that didn't
Inperson participant 2 (28:35)
we're feeling unrepresented. We were worried about our kids going out into the world that didn't
have the understanding of the complexity and the context. And it was significantly more dangerous than like my college in the eighties was super fun and being a Jew is not a big deal. Yeah.
Lonny Goldsmith (28:40)
have the understanding of the complexity and the context. And it was significantly more dangerous than like my college. Super fun and being a Jew is not a big deal. Yep.
Sarah (28:51)
Same in the nineties. It was not
ever a single issue. Not once in four years.
Lonny Goldsmith (28:56)
Yep. You know, but one of the things
Inperson participant 2 (28:57)
You know, but one of the things
Lonny Goldsmith (28:58)
I have found is that the conversations I'm having are with other Jews. and I'm wondering how I talk to people about antisemitism who are Jewish and also aren't Jewish. And how I I'm I'm supposed to to to walk that line.
Inperson participant 2 (28:58)
I have found is that the conversations I'm having are with other Jews. and I'm wondering how I talk to people about antisemitism who are Jewish and also aren't Jewish and how I I'm I'm supposed to to to walk that line.
Sarah (29:14)
It's very this is very, very challenging. you know, I think that it sort of depends on what context, right? If you're like, how do I talk to people on social media? That's one thing, obviously. That's I don't know because I'm not really it's not really my thing. but it's like if you actually have time to have a conversation with someone, you know, I like I really like to actually when I'm talking about Israel and the kind of like, you know, the obsessing about Israel and all the negative lies about Israel, I like to just be very clear with them about
You know, why I'm a Zionist. I will say to my fellow Jews, to non-Jews, like I am a Zionist. And I want you to understand what that means because that word has been hijacked by a lot of people for their own purposes. You know, what Zionism is, is it's the national independence movement of the Jewish people. It's the belief that Jews have a right to safety and security in a state of their own, just like Japanese people have in Japan and Latvians have in Latvia. And like I very much hope if the conditions are right, Palestinians will have in Palestine one day. And the reason I believe that.
Is because for 2,000 years Jews did not have a state. And the result was millions of murdered Jews. Not just in the Holocaust, but we're talking over many centuries, Jews expelled from just about every country, massacred, brutalized, discriminated against in horrific ways. And since Israel was founded in 1948, the result has been hundreds of thousands of Jews who have not been murdered. And I'm talking about 650,000 of the 850,000 Jews who had to flee brutal pat persecution in Arab lands in the mid-20th century.
From Iraq and Syria and Egypt. I mean, these these countries have basically no Jews anymore when they used to have nearly a million. These Jews fled to Israel. I'm talking about one million Soviet Jews who fled brutal persecution in the Soviet Union to Israel. I'm talking about a hundred thousand Ethiopian Jews who fled persecution in Ethiopia to Israel. We can go on and on like this. And I'm not interested in running the counterfactual on that again, right? We know what happens to Jews when there is not a state of Israel. And
You know, that said, I also want to be clear with them. I'm very critical of the current Israeli government. I disagree with many of their policies. I'm appalled by many of their ideologies. I have very, very strong critiques, which I'm happy to get into. And I'm a Zionist no matter who the prime minister is. Just like I am a proud, patriotic American. I love this country. I happen to disagree quite strongly with the current American president. I disagree strongly with many of his policies. I think they are awful. I find his ideologies appalling, but I'm a patriot no matter who the president is.
Is just like I'm a Zionist no matter who the prime minister is. And I'm comfortable holding those things. And I I think I think what I also like to point out, especially to younger Jews, is just, you know, when I hear them talking about Israel, you know, they'll be saying, Well, Israel did this and Israel did that and Jews did this and Jews did that and Israel did this and Israel did that. And I just gently want to just step back and say, you know, I hear you entirely centering Jews in this narrative. You have erased every other population in the Middle East from this. I haven't heard you say
anything about any decision that Palestinians have made, Palestinian leaders that leaders in Arab countries have made. Like this is a region where many, many peoples and leaders are involved in this com in this conflict, and they are all adults with moral agency, cognitive capacity. There are many, many peoples with strategies and ideologies who make decisions. And to disappear all of them and only center Jews, to me that reflects a kind of supremacy and an incredible condescension that I find really abhorrent. So
If we're gonna have this conversation, I'm gonna wanna talk about everyone else involved in the con this conflict. People have made terrible decisions, they've made good decisions, both Jews and Israelis and others, and I think we have to talk about all of it. That's very important to me in how I think about this. You know, in terms of antisemitism, I mean it is so tough because we have made this epic investment in Holocaust education as antisemitism education. You know, Holocaust education should be mandatory because it's history, right? You you have if you are
not learning.
About the Holocaust, you are not learning history, and that is unacceptable. So I'm I'm pro-Holocaust education. But Holocaust education is not antisemitism education. It teaches you that antisemitism was a terrible thing that happened, you know, in the mid-20th century in Europe and never again the end. Right? It teaches you that antisemitism is Nazi racial antisemitism. That's simply not true. So I really, like in my in here in in as a Jew, I really try to educate people that actually there were 2,000 years of Christian anti-
Judaism before the Nazis that really paved the way for the thinking that led to the Holocaust. And that's the work of many renowned Christian scholars who've really done quite a deep dive into that history. And by the way, you know, Islam also had its own anti-Jewish tradition whereby both Christians and Jews were considered second-class citizens, but protected. but you know, that certainly is a a vein that goes through history. And unfortunately, in modern times, you have a strain of Islamism that is extremely antisemitic, and then you have
Soviet anti-Zionism, which said the Soviets said, No, no, no, we don't hate Jews, we love Jews. The problem isn't the Jews, it's the Zionists. And they brutally persecuted millions of Zionists, meaning millions of Jews, but they just called them Zionists, And so these slogans like Zionism equals racism, Nazism, genocide, these are all KGB communist slogans, right? They're from decades ago. The problem is like students don't learn, our young people don't learn about Soviet anti-Zionism. I think if they did when they showed
Up on campus and heard the very slogans that the KGB and the Soviets use to brutalize Jews now being screamed by their classmates, I don't think they would be like, that's fine. Right? They know how to recognize Nazis. Amazing, but that's Nazis really are not on campus today. What you have is a combination of Soviet anti-Zionism and a sort of Islamist, you know, theological Jew hate. That is what we're seeing today on campus. And so we need to help our kids understand the various forms of antisemitism. I think that's quite important.
Lonny Goldsmith (35:11)
I think it it's interesting because your your discussion of being armed with this information to basically go out there and defend ourselves first of all, everything that you said, again, I know I said it before, but it it's like you were in my head from the just how we've even talked about our our our feelings towards Israel, our feelings towards education, all such essential.
Inperson participant 2 (35:11)
Think it it's interesting because your your discussion of being armed with this information to basically go out there and defend ourselves first of all, everything that you said, again, I know I said it before, but it it's like you were in my head from the just how we've even talked about our our our feelings towards Israel, our feelings towards education, all such essential
points.
Lonny Goldsmith (35:40)
Points and
Inperson participant 2 (35:41)
And I think we understand the importance of knowing facts and being able to answer those arguments. And I find myself thinking, well, I think we think, I'm we're tired of arguing for our right to exist. And we're tired of feeling as though Jews, we must arrive armed with these facts and history just to prove that our fear is legitimate and that we belong.
Lonny Goldsmith (35:41)
I think we understand the importance of knowing facts and being able to answer those arguments. and I find myself thinking, well, I think we think, I'm we're tired of arguing for our right to exist. And we're tired of feeling as though Jews, we must arrive armed with these facts and history just to prove that our fear is legitimate and that we belong.
Inperson participant 2 (36:05)
And like, how do you walk that line? How do we become
Lonny Goldsmith (36:05)
And like how do you walk that line? How do we become
knowledgeable enough to push back against antisemitism without accepting the premise that we are perpetually required to defend or justify our own existence?
Inperson participant 2 (36:09)
Enough to push back against antisemitism without accepting the premise that we are perpetually required to defend or justify our own existence.
Sarah (36:20)
I really hear you on this. You know, I think there is a danger of devolving into becoming nothing but an anti anti Semite, which is a terrible Jewish identity, and no one no one should have to live that way, right? That that's unacceptable. I think the thing is, you know
I think there's a lot we can do to fight antisemitism. I really do. I think lawfare is very important. You know, bringing lawsuits, making sure that people are respecting the rules and Jews' rights. I think that certainly education, very well done education, and early on, you know, really educating students when they're younger. I think that you're reaching out to allies. We have so many natural allies in America. I think they're I think most people are not sitting around all day, you know, hysterically hating Jews. I think most people are busy raising their families and and doing
their jobs and actually are are pretty open, right? I don't think most people are hardcore ideologues. We have lots of allies. I think that work is very helpful. You know, what I'm less sure about is sort of trying to fight every battle on social media. You know, you know, trying to kind of get into Twitter wars and, you know, like shoot down every terrible lie and argument. You know, I think the reality is that social media is a global medium on which there are milli hundreds of millions of people. And it's a medium that really operates under the the rule
Of might makes right. So the more people like something, the more viral it goes. You have you know algorithms that are designed to gen up hate. So when you have hundreds of millions of people and you have only 16 million Jews, you know, even if all 16 million of us, including the babies, got online and were like all day long, like, Jews are not terrible, don't hate us. I'm just not sure how helpful that is. And I think that, you know, I think that there's something, I also just think that like knowing our story, it's actually one of the best ways to fight.
antisemitism,
because it actually gives you something to say. Instead of just like that's wrong, let me just prove this. Let me it's you're like, let me tell you a positive Jewish story. Or even better, let me live a positive Jewish story without having to tell it to you and you can just come to your own conclusions. You know, I I think for me it's also very important to pick your battles. You know, I think trying to fight the hardest core, most extremist ideologues, that is a waste of time. You're not gonna change their minds. I mean look if people want to do that, I'm not gonna stop you, but I think there are
so
many more people who are just ignorant or who have some, you know, false ideas but are open to a conversation. So I really I urge people to kind of don't fight with the extremists on social media. Go talk to actual people in your community who are open-minded and open-hearted. I think that's a much more productive way forward. I'd also just say
Lonny Goldsmith (38:53)
Absolutely.
Sarah (38:55)
it's very important, especially for young people on college campuses, I just want them to understand that they've come to campus only learning about eliminationist antisemitism, which is Jews are bad.
Nothing they can do to be good, we're gonna kill them. That's the Holocaust. We've all decided that's bad. But there is a kind of antisemitism that is conversionist in nature, and Dara Horn writes about this beautifully in her book People Love Dead Jews. And that kind of antisemitism says, Yeah yeah, Jews are bad. But there is something they can do to be saved and good, which is they can convert. So centuries ago in medieval Europe, if you converted to Christianity, maybe they wouldn't kill you. Maybe. You know, in my parents and grandparents' generation, it was convert to being a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant.
A wasp, right? Get a nose job, change your name, don't be so Jewy. And then maybe you can join my country club, maybe you can marry my daughter. Today the conversion demand is convert to being an anti-Zionist, and then you will be an acceptable Jew who will be be not harassed on campus. You know, and I I sometimes see and just like hear these narratives that these young Jews are telling where they're like that sound like Christian conversion narratives, where it's like growing up, my rabbi and my parents.
Told me Israel was great, but then I came to campus and I and I learned, you know, I learned that it's genocidal and apartheid and this and that, and I had an epiphany and I saw the light and I took anti-colonialism and anti-Zionism into my heart and now I'm saved. Now I'm a good Jew. And their classmates are like, Yes, now you're a good Jew. That's a conversion narrative. And I think, you know, I just often will say to college students, like, look, I gotta tell you, if your classmates want to protest the Chinese government's policies, which like please do, they're committing terrible human.
Rights abuses. But if they decide to do that by going around to every single one of your Chinese American classmates and saying to them, you have to reject China entirely. If you speak Chinese or visit China or say a single nice thing about Chinese culture, history, language, art, food, you're dead to us because we have a no China lovers allowed policy on our in our campus clubs. And now we're gonna hold a big rally where we scream, we don't want no China lovers here, and Chinese people equal Nazis. That's just straight up racism. We have no problem.
I'm recognizing that for what that is, but substitute Zionist for you know China lover, and we have this same thing that's been happening to Jews. So if you can recognize that as racism, please recognize it as antisemitism.
Inperson participant 2 (41:13)
You've addressed a lot of what the next question was going to be. I just sent my daughter to college. And I've also spent the past year and a half
Lonny Goldsmith (41:13)
You've addressed a lot of what the next question was gonna be. I just sent my daughter to college. And I've also spent the past year and a half.
Inperson participant 2 (41:22)
on the podcast processing the idea of sending my daughter to college. We thought we were gonna send her to a real elite East Coast school, and then I found out about all the antisemitism and the conversion narrative that you give. And how dare somebody tell me I'm a good Jew by, you know, saying I'm no longer a Zionist. That's not how it works. But that's just me. but when she was applying to colleges and some she got into and some she didn't, I kept wondering is it cause she was too
Lonny Goldsmith (41:22)
on the podcast processing the idea of sending my daughter to college. We thought we were gonna send her to a real elite East Coast school and then I found out about all the antisemitism and the conversion narrative that you give and how dare somebody tell me I'm a good Jew by you know saying I'm no longer a Zionist. That's not how it works. But that's just me. but when she was applying to colleges and some she got into and some she didn't I kept wondering is it because she was too
Inperson participant 2 (41:52)
Too outwardly Jewish on her application because some kids were being told to like tone down the Jewiness. And my kid wouldn't. So her work with the URJ and her trip to Israel and the research she did about kids in conflict in Israel was out there. You know, so she and I are both wondering is she too too Jewy to get into these schools? And how is she supposed to even present herself when she gets to campus? What
Lonny Goldsmith (41:52)
Too outwardly Jewish on her application because some kids were being told to like tone down the Jewiness. And my kid wouldn't. So her work with the URJ and her trip to Israel and the research she did about kids in conflict in Israel was out there. you know, so she and I are both wondering is she too too Jewy to get into these schools? And how is she supposed to even present herself when she gets to campus?
Sarah (42:21)
I have no idea how college admissions works anymore, but one thing I will say that really devastates me is that you know I'm so glad that the encampments are gone. I'm I'm really glad that many colleges have generously started to enforce their rules when it comes to Jews. That was a really thank you for for finally doing that. Boy. So it took a shocking amount of effort to get them to do that. And I'm we'll never forget it. but I think what devastates me is that I see on some campuses students
who
Who have a Jewish students who care about Israel, who have any kind of connection, who consider themselves Zionists in any way, they actually remind me of gay students in the early 90s, where there's a kind of closeting that goes on. Where, like, if you were gay on many campuses in the early 90s, you know, you had to go through this really horrific and just like awful process of kind of being closeted with some people, and maybe you were out with some. It's like you told these friends and not these. You maybe found the sympathetic pathetic professor. You probably didn't put that you were the
President of the Gay Student Alliance on your resume. It was a constant, awful thing that you had to do of code switching and hiding and and just being careful. And like, what a you know, we we recognize that now as utterly unacceptable. Right? That is unacceptable and it's heartbreaking and it's just devastating. And I see young Jews on some campuses going through that. Right? Some are very out, some are like, nope, I'm a Zionist, I'm proud, I'm out. But many, I find they they'll tell me it's like, look, I just keep quiet, I don't say this.
I
don't you I'm I'm just kinda like, you know, I won't go on birthright 'cause I just cannot deal with the ostracization or I'll go visit my friends in Israel, but I won't tell anyone. It's like this constant thing. And I, you know, I I think we've kind of under I think that we were so focused on the encampments and the loud stuff. I think that we've maybe lost sight of the quieter, more insidious nature of what's going on here. And like I don't think anyone should have to closet their identity. Right? That that just that's really unacceptable to me. but I
I will say, like, I you know, I always tell young people, it's like, look, you know, if you don't get a job because they don't want to hire you because you're a Jew or a Zionist, that's probably a bullet dodged. It's probably not a place you wanna work. You know, I think at some point you just have to decide, like, can you tolerate being in the closet? Like do you do you wanna live that way? And you should not have to make that decision. It's unacceptable we even have to think about that. But I just think at some point that's a bullet dodged and I think that there are you know, there are plenty
plenty of places that will not make you have to make that decision. There are plenty of employers who are looking for good, talented young people. You you shouldn't have to deal with the few that are problematic.
Inperson participant 2 (45:00)
The happy end to my story is that my daughter found a school that is politically moderate, incredibly welcoming. The Hillel is actually part of the institution and she gets to be exactly who she is. but I wonder about the safety of other kids on other campuses, and I feel foolish for having to talk to my daughter that way. So yeah, I guess it was a bullet dodged.
Lonny Goldsmith (45:00)
The happy end to my story is that my daughter found a school that is politically moderate, incredibly welcoming. The Hillel is actually part of the institution, and she gets to be exactly who she is. but I wonder about the safety of other kids on other campuses, and I feel foolish for having to talk to my daughter that way. So yeah, I guess it was a bullet dodged.
Sarah (45:24)
Yeah, and I you know
And look, by the way, I think that there are, you know, when people say, like, where should my kid go to college? I don't think there's any one right answer to that. Right? Some like some campuses that do have some serious issues with antisemitism also have really vibrant, thriving Jewish communities. So you can have an amazing time there. So I think it it really depends on your kids' personality and sensibility. But I will say, I think that what we're seeing is about something bigger than just Jews. It's about it, it's about what it's actually that I'm reminded of a a story.
I heard about the president of Harvard about a century ago, many, many, you know, long time ago, who this was back when Harvard had official Jewish quotas, and someone asked him, like, why do you have these quotas trying to exclude Jews? And he answered, Well, because Jews cheat. And the person was like, But wait a second, other students cheat too. And he said, I'm talking about Jews. That's really interesting, right? It's like, it's like this talking about Jews. It's what the journalist Jeffrey Goldberg calls Jew on the brain. When people are obsessed.
Obsessing about Jews, when they're talking about Jews all the time, you can be pretty sure that they're not solving their actual problems. And that's what worries me about campus. You know, if people are obsessing about Israel and Zionism and colonialism all day long, those are not young people who are actually going to understand international affairs. If you think Israel is the greatest threat to the world order,
And you don't know jack squad about Iran, Russia, China, like you are ignorant, right? You are not going to be able to conduct foreign policy in any kind of reasonable way. You know, if you are and so, you know, if you are obsessing about arrest arresting BB Netanyahu, you're probably not gonna be focused on like solving homelessness, right? Like, like there are many causes of affordability and unaffordable living costs, of homelessness. Netanyahu is not one of them, nor is AIPAC, but when you are obsessing
About Jews, you can't solve your problems. And so I worry about campuses that obsess about Jews because they're not actually engaged in critical thinking. They're not actually engaged in a real search for truth. And that's not just about Jewish students. That's about every student on that campus. So I think, look, you know, fortunately, I don't think most campuses are that are that extreme. You know, I'm I'm glad there are certainly departments on certain campuses that are. There are certainly pockets, and you have to be thoughtful about that. Thank God most campuses are not. I think the pendulum has swung back.
But I think to the extent that it does still exist in places places and pockets, that's not good for any student, not just Jews.
Lonny Goldsmith (47:53)
I think it's a very interesting world that these kids have to navigate and that we're all navigating ourselves at the moment. And I there was there's a certain para we c we touched on this that there's a paradox that that I think we've both been thinking about while we were reading your works, about the assimilation of American Jews. And
Inperson participant 2 (47:53)
I think it's a very interesting world that these kids have to navigate and that we're all navigating ourselves at the moment. And I there was there's a certain para we c we touched on this that there's a paradox that that I think we've both been thinking about while we were reading your works, about the assimilation of American Jews. And
do you think that by by trying to assimilate and trying to be part of this of the greater culture that
Lonny Goldsmith (48:16)
Do you think that by by trying to assimilate and trying to be part of this of the greater culture that
has left us less prepared for this moment? And if that's true, what do we rebuild? How do we rebuild?
Inperson participant 2 (48:21)
Has left us less prepared for this moment. And if that's true, what do we rebuild? How do we rebuild?
Sarah (48:30)
You know, look, I I really have so much admiration and gratitude to my ancestors who, you know, they were doing their best, right? In many ways, I actually think what happened in Western Europe involved a lot of courage. It would have been much easier for these people 200 years ago, 250 years ago in Western Europe to just walk away from Judaism. To say we're gonna convert to Christianity. That would have been easier, but they wanted to stay Jews. They really felt loyal to the tradition, so they came up with a way that they could be Jews but also, you know, be engaged in modern society.
You know, spoiler alert, heartbreakingly, it did not work. But I think that today, when we have really created a Judaism that's kind of emptied of so much content, it does leave us pretty helpless to all the ugly stories that people are telling about us. You know, if you don't know Jewish history and the history of Israel, you will believe all the hateful lies about Israel.
If you don't know Jewish tradition, if you don't know the wisdom of it, the beauty of it, you know, you will believe whatever people are saying about Judaism. And so I think that, you know, it is so important to us. I think that what we really need today is kind of a massive project of Jewish adult education. You know, I actually don't think the problem is Hebrew school or kids. You know, I don't like it when people say, Well, Hebrew school is the problem. If we just fixed Hebrew school, it would be okay. Hebrew school's fine, right? Like Hebrew school will get your kid to be a
12-year-old Jew. But we as adults, we're responsible for raising Jewish kids. This happens in the home. Rabbis and Hebrew school teachers are not responsible for raising Jews. We as adults are. And you know, 15 years ago, I was probably a nine-year-old Jew. Like I'll like that would probably be giving me a lot of credit. If I had had kids back then, what would I have given them? I would have just outsourced it to some poor Hebrew school teacher again. That's not how it works, right? We have to become adult Jews, and that means engaging with content. This is not
About taking a faith into our hearts. This is not about belief. This is about engaging with the depth and breadth of Jewish tradition. And that involves taking a class, reading a book, listening to lectures, engaging in Jewish experiences and activities. However, you learn, however you learn, you gotta dive in and do that work. And I think that we kind of need a massive project of that today in America to reclaim this not as a Protestant-style religion, but as a civilization, with all of its depth, the 2500 years of post-biblical texts that have so
so much wisdom that we desperately need today, I think that's what we need to reclaim.
Inperson participant 2 (50:55)
What
a great idea. That's where our resources need to start going. Because I was r I was a religious school teacher. And how do you cover that much history or wisdom in just a few hours once a week when kids would much rather be playing soccer or sleeping or watching cartoons? You know, it
Lonny Goldsmith (50:56)
Great idea. That's where our resources need to start going. Because I was r I was a religious school teacher. And how do you cover that much history or wisdom in just a few hours once a week when kids would much rather be playing soccer or sleeping or watching cartoons? You know.
Sarah (51:12)
Yes.
Yes. You can't. You you can't
do that, right? That and that's not your job. You can certainly support parents and you can certainly, you know, supplement, support parents, but they need to be doing that in the home and then you can do things on top of that, right? Whatever can't be done in the home, whatever you know, like that's I think what Hebrew school can do, but to expect Hebrew school to just give your kid a Jewish identity, that's just not fair. It's not fair. I
Lonny Goldsmith (51:38)
No.
Sarah (51:39)
think experiences like Jewish like like day school, that can give your kid a Jewish identity. Camp,
That can be really helpful. It's these immersive experiences, but really it is the home. And that's and again, like my I have such empathy for Jewish adults who say, I don't know how to do this. Of course you don't. You you didn't have the the access to the tradition. You you weren't given the education. So I I have so much compassion. You're not a bad Jew. Again, I want to erase that phrase from from the the language. You're a Jew who hasn't had access yet, and that's not your fault. That's actually a result of a lot of persecution. But it is our responsibility.
Right? It's not our fault, but it is our responsibility, and we're gonna have to start doing that work. And we're gonna have to start showing people that there's something worth working for. And that's really the challenge. No, there's no wrong age. No wrong age. Any time in your life you can start.
Lonny Goldsmith (52:22)
Yeah. And there's no wrong age. Yeah, there's no wrong age to come to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Inperson participant 2 (52:23)
And there's no wrong age. Yeah, there's no wrong age to come to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lonny Goldsmith (52:31)
That's beautiful. Beautiful sentiment. So I wanna ask something that's really kind of uncomfortable for me, and I suspect for some of our listeners. And when I look at the length of the question, it's about half a page. So let me see what I can do with this. I've been a liberal my whole life. I
Inperson participant 2 (52:31)
It's beautiful. Beautiful sentiment. So I wanna ask something that's really kind of uncomfortable for me, and I suspect for some of our listeners. And when I look at the length of the question, it's about half a page. So
Sarah (52:44)
Yeah.
Inperson participant 2 (52:46)
Let me see what I can do with this. I've been a liberal my whole life. I
I was an undergrad at the University of Chicago. So I remember listening to Barack Obama speak and thinking, I get this. I understand his words. This is the way the adults when I was like coming up spoke. This makes sense.
Lonny Goldsmith (52:53)
So I remember listening to Barack Obama speak and thinking, I get this. I understand his words. This is the way the adults, when I was like coming up, spoke. This makes sense.
and then in the past few years, especially after October 7th, I felt politically unmoored. The ideas of power and oppression that seemed useful for me in undergrad and grad school got disturbingly simplistic, and Jews all of a sudden became white and powerful. I mean, you know, the power depravity
Inperson participant 2 (53:05)
And then in the past few years, especially after October 7th, I felt politically unmoored. The ideas of power and oppression that seemed useful for me in undergrad and grad school got disturbingly simplistic, and Jews all of a sudden became white and powerful. I mean, you know, the power, depravity,
Lonny Goldsmith (53:23)
gravity and conspiracy has always been there, but it seemed to be highlighted in in a way of looking at Israel. And
Inperson participant 2 (53:24)
and conspiracy has always been there. But it seemed to be highlighted in a way of looking at Israel. And
Lonny Goldsmith (53:32)
all of a sudden antisemitism was minimized and hostility towards Jews was, you know, rationalized in the left. Right.
Inperson participant 2 (53:32)
All of a sudden antisemitism was minimized and hostility towards Jews was, you know, rationalized in the left. Right.
Sarah (53:42)
Yes.
Inperson participant 2 (53:42)
I understand the words that people are using, but I don't understand their arguments anymore. And I feel I think you and I both feel discussed this.
Lonny Goldsmith (53:43)
I understand the words that people are using, but I don't understand their arguments anymore. And I feel I think you and I'm Yeah, we've thought discussed this.
Lost. How do liberal Jews challenge antisemitism in our own communities, like in the liberal world, or if we're on the right in the right world and like find a place in the institutions again?
Inperson participant 2 (53:52)
lost. How do liberal Jews challenge antisemitism in our own communities, like in the liberal world, or if we're on the right in the right world and like find a place in the institutions again?
Sarah (54:04)
I really, really feel for you. I think some one of the most common things I'm hearing as I travel across the country is a feeling of homelessness. And I really, you know, I think that what we're talking about, it's not about like progressive or conservative. It's about like, do you believe in democracy or not? Do you believe in the rule of law? Do you believe in liberalism? Right? Do you believe in basic human decency? And I think what scares me so much is like I'm seeing I'm seeing on both sides kind of like the problem of Jew on the brain, right? Where this obsession
Session about Israel, APAC, this and that. And it's really worrisome to me. And I'll, you know, say, like, look, I'm someone obviously, I'm a Democrat, I'm from the left. And you know, I'm seeing this happening in big prestigious institutions where I've spent my life. You know, universities, nonprofits, these are my people. And to see that is devastating and very, very upsetting to me. Like, I am really this is what I am losing sleep about. But I think it is so important for us to acknowledge this is an equal problem on the right, and the data is very clear about it.
That especially when you look at young people, the divide really isn't between right and left, it's actually between old versus young. Older Americans are much less anti-Semitic and much less anti-Israel. Younger people are much more so on both sides. And I think that you know, folks like us, I think we're missing a big story on the right because, like, you don't really see there aren't like big prestigious institutions that are kind of infused with antisemitism on the right. That's just not where I'm I'm seeing it, but I think it's going to people directly.
directly to their phones from people like Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes. I think there's a lot out there that we are we are not seeing that the data is revealing. So I think this problem of of you know blaming Jews, obsessing about Jews, I think we're seeing it on both the right and the left and it is very, very painful. You know, I will say like so how do I make sense of this? You know, I'm still a Democrat because what I see on the right is a kind of illiberalism and attacks on democracy that are existential. Like I that I do not think we can survive.
Jews cannot survive in an undemocratic America. Like, we survive because of the democracy and the rule of law. That we've just learned this again and again. So I am still a Democrat. I think that the kind of extreme DSA kind of thing is still quite marginal. Actually, if you look at the candidates running this year, you're looking at like 10 candidates out of hundreds. And I think that because they are so loud and influential, they get so much attention. And I, you know, and again, right? Social media and even mainstream media, you're rewarded by giving the most attention.
Into the most extreme voices. So I think we need to just be thoughtful about what's out there. But I am very, very, very worried about this. And I, you know, I think it is getting to the point where there are candidates I won't vote for in my own party. Like you have to make this decision. And I'm also mindful that look, we have a real, real strong attacks on democracy. I care about the Supreme Court. I care about the rule of law. So I need to think about that as well. but it's a really tough decision, and I don't have easy answers, and I'm I'm seeing a lot of thoughtful people coming out.
To different results, coming out with different opinions. But I think the key is like, do you do the work of wrestling with the complexity? Do you really sit down and think like what are my core values? What are the most important things? How do I really think this through? but I will tell you, it is enraging to me, it's devastating to me to see this kind of horseshoe meeting on both the right and the left around Jews and this obsession. It really worries me very much.
Lonny Goldsmith (57:29)
Yeah. Do you think that the current moment has created any unexpected alliances or conversations that you think are worth exploring?
Inperson participant 2 (57:29)
Yeah. Do you think that the current moment has created any unexpected alliances or conversations that you think are worth exploring?
Sarah (57:30)
Yeah.
I do, actually. You know, I think that it's funny, I really I think that what I've I I've
I've had these moments with with people in my life who are not Jewish, who I I don't even know that well, you know, colleagues who I maybe had a conversation with ten years ago or whatever, but who reach out and say, I am seeing what's happening and this is absolutely unacceptable. Like this is illiberal, it is bigoted, it is wrong.
Like they're they're just so clear. Like there have just been so many examples like that. You might think of my my friend who's a Presbyterian minister in Canada, this lovely guy named David Clark. He knows more about Judaism than I do. He's learning Yiddish because he thinks it's disrespectful to read Holocaust literature in translation. He he wants to read it in the original. He's someone who's really spent his career fighting antisemitism in the church. He is like a phenomenal ally.
think there are a lot more people out there like that than we think who really share our values and who, you know, really want to walk with us. So I think that has been really moving to me. And I also think that, you know, the reality was that back in the 80s and 90s, you know, when we were in college, you could kind of engage with your Jewishness or not. Right? You couldn't there was really if your Jewish identity was the big gaping void, you know
It was probably okay because n there wasn't antisemitism to fill that void. So you could kind of just go along, get along, not think much about your identity. And I think there's something powerful today in the fact that Jews have to actually think about being Jews. They actually have to make choices. They have to actually decide. Like, wait a second, what am I gonna do now? Like this is being threatened. These stories are being told. And I you know, you s this phenomenon of the October 8th Jew, you know, people say it a little bit dis dismissively, but I I I wanna really celebrate that, to have a moment where people are
Waking up and actually saying, like, wait a second. No, I'm I'm not just gonna go along to get along. I actually know there's something here that I need to engage with. And I think that that's been, you know, I certainly I will never say there are silver linings or it's good. I mean, there's nothing that makes October 7th okay. So I don't wanna I really don't I just can't even look at this as a silver lining, but it is a thing that has happened in the wake of this horror that I think is important.
Lonny Goldsmith (59:54)
Absolutely. And I I think
Inperson participant 2 (59:54)
And I I think
Lonny Goldsmith (59:56)
When did we discuss doing this podcast? It was It was before October. But then after October seventh, we're like, Hell yeah, we're doing Yeah, it it it lit the fire under our feet for sure, and I think has kind of become our purpose. Well, I think it wasn't just October seventh. This was this whole idea that there's something going on in the zeitgeist where you know, Jews were being demonized before that. Right. And then normal
Inperson participant 2 (59:56)
When did we discuss doing this podcast? It was It was before October seventh, but then after October seventh, we're hell yeah, we're doing Yeah, it it it lit the fire under our feet for sure, and I think has kind of become our purpose. Well, I think it wasn't just October seventh. This was this whole idea that there's something going on in the Zeitgeist where you know, Jews were being demonized before that and then normal
Sarah (1:00:15)
Yes, absolutely.
Inperson participant 2 (1:00:25)
Midwestern moms
Lonny Goldsmith (1:00:25)
Midwestern moms
with Jewish kids had no voice. And
Inperson participant 2 (1:00:27)
with Jewish kids had no voice. And
we have a lot to say, as you've noticed. And we were being erased. And we're like, well, this is what we can do. We can we can stand up for our community where we are. So and bring our experiences and hindsight to it as well from where we are in our lives right now. Yeah. Yeah.
Lonny Goldsmith (1:00:33)
We have a lot to say, as you've noticed. and we will being erased and we're like, Well, this is what we can do. We can we can stand up for our community where we are. So And bring our experiences and kind of hindsight to it as well from where we are in our lives right now. Yeah, yeah.
Sarah (1:00:36)
Hey.
Yes, yes,
Lonny Goldsmith (1:00:52)
So so Sarah, we wanna end on something hopeful. what do you think this moment could become for American Jews?
Sarah (1:00:51)
yes.
Inperson participant 2 (1:00:52)
So Sarah, we want to end on something hopeful. what do you think this moment could become for American Jews?
Sarah (1:01:02)
I think this could be a moment where American Jews engage in this big, bold, beautiful project of reclamation, of really stepping back and saying, okay, we have this extraordinary thousands of year old tradition with so much wisdom and beauty that we desperately need right now. Let's dive into it. Let's reclaim it. Let's learn deeply. Let's connect deeply. Let's really engage in Jewish community. Let's engage in Jewish peoplehood and you know engage with our siblings all around the world.
Like I think this could be a real moment where we, you know, in some ways kind of go back to Western Europe in the 1800s and almost make a different decision and say, you know what, thank God, we we do not have to be soaked in the hatreds of the people around us. We do not have to actually erase ourselves to be acceptable and say if we don't have to do that, and we're not gonna do that. And instead we're gonna really mind this tradition for the incredible wisdom that it has to offer us. I think that would be a very that would be a really great future.
Lonny Goldsmith (1:01:58)
Absolutely.
Inperson participant 2 (1:01:58)
Absolutely,
absolutely, yeah. I think I I think a mission of reclamation. Yep, yep. and for us through joy, right? Joy, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Lonny Goldsmith (1:01:59)
Absolutely. Yeah. I think I I think a mission of reclamation. Yep. Yep. and for us through joy. Right. Through joy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah (1:02:08)
Yes. Yeah. Through joy I'm such a big fan of Jewish joy, 'cause there's so much to be had. It really I'm I like I wake up
every morning, I'm like, how did I get so lucky to be part of this tradition and this people? Like what a gift it is. It just it's I I cannot believe how lucky I am. I really
Inperson participant 2 (1:02:23)
Yeah. It truly is it is you know, we're
Lonny Goldsmith (1:02:23)
It truly is. It's you know, we're
Inperson participant 2 (1:02:25)
such a tiny, tiny population. I kind of feel like, you know, there's some hard stuff, but I I I won a lottery, being born Jewish was winning a lottery. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Lonny Goldsmith (1:02:25)
such a tiny, tiny population. I kinda feel like, you know, there's some hard stuff, but I I I won a lottery. Being born Jewish was winning a lottery. I wouldn't have it any other way. No,
Sarah (1:02:35)
totally. And look, exactly,
and by the way, I
Lonny Goldsmith (1:02:38)
no.
Sarah (1:02:38)
know lots of other people from other communities and traditions who feel the same way. And I think that's awesome. Right? I
Lonny Goldsmith (1:02:43)
Right.
Sarah (1:02:43)
I like we there's such a diversity of heritages and communities and traditions in this country, and I love the pride that people bring. Like I love it. I love to learn about other traditions through people who are engaging with them with such pride. And I I want Jews to do the same thing. This is something really special that we have.
Lonny Goldsmith (1:03:00)
Amazing. Amazing. Sarah, I appreciate this. I appreciate the work you have been doing in writing these books, reclaiming your own Jewish identity, and then leaving leaving breadcrumbs for the rest of us to figure out our way to do it. and your writing as a Jew has been very helpful for the words that we needed at this time.
Inperson participant 2 (1:03:02)
Sarah, I appreciate this. I appreciate the work you have been doing and writing these books, reclaiming your own Jewish identity, and then leaving leaving breadcrumbs for the rest of us to figure out our way to do it. and your writing as a Jew has been very helpful for the words that we needed at this time.
Absolutely. I I as as I think like it has been kind of a a a calming, mooring
Lonny Goldsmith (1:03:24)
Absolutely. I I as as I think like it has been kind of a a a calming, mooring
aspect for for me to have the content of the book. And I think yeah, I think we feel the same way. It's like whenever we have that moment where we read something, we're like, Yes, this is this is me. Right, right. We're not alone in this is a very positive feeling. Yeah.
Inperson participant 2 (1:03:31)
aspect for for me to have the content of the book. And I think yeah I think we feel the same way. It's like whenever we have that moment where we read something we're like, yes, this is okay, I'm not doing this by myself. Right. Right. We're not alone in this is is a very positive feeling. Yeah.
Sarah (1:03:47)
So glad.
Inperson participant 2 (1:03:47)
So
I is there anything you would like to tell our audience, the people, the ten people who are listening or watching. I think it's actually more than 10 maybe.
Lonny Goldsmith (1:03:49)
Is there anything you would like to tell our audience, the people the ten people who are listening or watching? I think it's actually more I think we're growing, hopefully.
To leave us on a happy note. Yeah.
Inperson participant 2 (1:04:01)
To leave us on a happy note, yeah.
Sarah (1:04:01)
Yeah yeah,
I mean look
You know, I'm thinking about this beautiful event that I did in in Minneapolis, the Jewish Community Relations Council of Minnesota, this gorgeous gala where, you know, you had hundreds of people from all over the state and from all different backgrounds and communities, including the senator and congress people and the mayor. It was unbelievable. And they all came together and there were a number of leaders from the National Guard there.
I think he was a general, this big hulking guy. And I just said to him, you know, it means so much to me that you're here tonight. Like, thank you so much. I can't believe this. What an honor. Thank you. And I'm going on and on. And he just looked kind of confused. And he said to me, Well, this is just about being a good neighbor. And I just thought, like, wow. It was just so obvious to him. It was just about being a good neighbor. He didn't feel like he was being a hero. He was being a good neighbor. That's what he was doing. And I think that we have a lot more good neighbors.
out there than we think. And I think that that night really made me feel incredibly hopeful.
Lonny Goldsmith (1:05:02)
That's wonderful. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. What a way. What a way to end. Thank you so much. Thank you, Sarah. Appreciate your time. Well, Mishpocha this has been a treat. All sorts of enjoyment and learning. I think a reclamation of our Jewish identities. And let's put some resources, energy, time, and thought to a massive Jewish adult ed. I will bring the snacks.
Inperson participant 2 (1:05:02)
That's wonderful. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. What a way. What a way to end. Thank you so much. Thank you. We appreciate your time. Well, Mishbucha, this has been a treat. All sorts of fun and learning. I think a reclamation of our Jewish identities. And let's put some resources, energy, time, and thought to a massive Jewish adult ed. I will bring the snacks.
Sarah (1:05:07)
Yeah. my pleasure. It was such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
Lonny Goldsmith (1:05:31)
We'll be there to kibbutz. Take care everyone.
Inperson participant 2 (1:05:31)
We'll be there to kibbits Kibbits on, Take care, everyone.
Sarah (1:05:33)
Ha ha ha.