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If you could ask God one question what would it be? The “Why God Why” podcast is dedicated to exploring the questions that matter most in your life.
Deep questions often don’t have easy answers. We realize that we won’t solve all the world’s problems in one podcast. Our goal is to share our life experience, interview knowledgeable guests and look at how Jesus might interact with our concerns. We also hope to have a ton of fun in the process because even though the issues might be serious, it doesn’t mean that we always need to be.
No matter where you are on your spiritual journey, we are honored to have you with us!
>> Peter Englert: Hey, why God? Why listeners? This is Peter Englert. We are currently on a season and series break. We just finished the credibility of Christianity, and now we're moving into questions of our day. But we wanted to give you a bonus episode with Drew. Dyck Drew is an author. He's also a friend of the show. We hope you enjoy this special bonus episode. Thank you so much. Welcome to the why God, why? Podcast. My name is Peter Englert. I am here with our guest, Drew. Dyck Drew is a author. He works in publishing. he's written all over the place. He just wrote a book called just show up. And the question he's dealing with is, why isn't my calling more clear? him and I, we have a nice little Twitter friendship that we're bringing to you live. This is our longest conversation, and, this conversation is really part of a series called questions of our day. You might be asking, why isn't my career more clear? Why isn't my calling more clear? You know, whether you're deconstructing or you're in a season of doubt or you're committed to a church, I think all of us can relate to this question of purpose. So, with all that said, my canadian brother, Drew, it's great to see you.
>> Drew Dyck: Hey, great to be here, and thanks for mentioning the canadian ness right off the bat. Although I got to say, I've been, you know, south of the border for, what, 22, 23 years, and so I don't feel very canadian anymore. Well, in my heart, I am.
>> Peter Englert: Let's help you feel canadian for just a second. So, who's your hockey team? Do you have one?
>> Drew Dyck: Oh, this is complicated. But it was the Oilers, and you'll see how old I am. when they traded Wayne Gretzky to La, I was disillusioned, heartbroken, and then I just gave up on hockey at that point. But my first love was the Oilers.
>> Peter Englert: Okay. Did you watch that whole documentary from ESPN?
>> Drew Dyck: No. No. I want to, though.
>> Peter Englert: Oh, wow. You're still in shock and pain? Is that what you're telling me?
>> Drew Dyck: I'm still recovering 30 years later. and then, of course, Canada hasn't won a Stanley cup in 20 years or something ridiculous. All right, well, it's just very unfair.
>> Peter Englert: Last fun question before we get serious, because they got to get to know you. Is the canadian dish poutine, or is there something else that you would say, this is our canadian dish, or maybe you grew up mostly in western Canada. I think so. I'd just be curious.
>> Drew Dyck: That's right. Yes, Alberta. So, yeah, it's funny because I remember, like, at a previous job I had, they're like, Drew, we want to do, like, some canadian dishes for this party that we're having. Like, what's a canadian dish? And I'm like, I don't know. Hamburgers? no. I mean, yeah, okay. Poutine is one, right? But that's kind of like. And it's so good, and it's so bad, right? It's just cheese curds and fries and gravy. It's, like, all the worst foods for you imaginable, and yet it tastes delicious. I like nanaimo bars. Have you ever heard of those?
>> Peter Englert: No.
>> Drew Dyck: That's from, like, those are, like, specifically from BC, from British Columbia. but they're. They're desserts, and I don't even know what's in them, but they're, like, chocolate and some custard, and they're just delicious. If you ever have a chance, people to eat in a nimo bar, that's what we'll eat in heaven. So, hey, better start now.
>> Peter Englert: I love it. Well, this is a great way to introduce you. Get started. Drew, why don't you share a little bit more about yourself than the food and the hockey stories, that you have? Sure.
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah. So I grew up in the church, you know, which was a mixed blessing, actually. I mean, some people, you know, it's a real struggle for them. my dad was a pastor, so I'm a pastor's kid. and so I got to see, like, a lot of good things and a lot of hard things, right. When you peek behind the curtain and you see kind of what goes on, the infighting, the craziness of church life. But overall, I'm grateful for it. like I said, I moved, you know, grew up in Canada, moved down to the states here, in my early twenties, and, had these kind of vague aspirations to be a writer. Didn't know how that would work out. Didn't know anyone who actually made a living doing that, and yet felt called to do that and ended up going to get an english degree, going to seminary, meeting my now wife. And that's why I'm still in the states. I was coming down for six months, and here I am, like, 20 years later, and kind of stumbled into being an editor, and am a writer, of course, now. And so, yeah, I feel blessed. I still believe that God's changing people through the medium of the written word. Ah. Even though we're in an increasingly visual culture. but I think back to my own spiritual journey and think of the different books that were instrumental in my faith. And so I feel blessed to be able to, get to do that for others.
>> Peter Englert: You know, I find your story fascinating, and I want to kind of drill down with our question because, you know, when growing up, the only people that I heard feel called were pastors. And, it was like, if you were called to be a missionary, it was like the highest calling, then it was pastors, and then it was kind of everything else. And I'm just kind of curious, with your dad being a pastor and with you going to seminary, did you feel this weight or pressure to kind of pursue that calling?
>> Drew Dyck: Well, yeah, I had a similar experience to you as far as, like, how I thought about calling growing up, because you're absolutely right. Like, missionaries were the A team, right? And if you couldn't do that, and, like, my parents were going to be missionaries, but then they had too many kids and so their denomination wouldn't send them out, and they're like, oh, crap, I guess. I guess I got to settle for being a pastor, right? That's like, if the missionary thing didn't work out, you could be a pastor, and then if you were an absolute loser and you couldn't be either of those, I guess you could just go get, like, make money and send checks to the people doing the real work of ministry, right? So there was this very kind of two tiered spirituality, and only the people that go into vocational ministry are actually called, Although, you know, by the time I grew up and read a little more widely and realized that that was kind of a bogus distinction, I'd kind of shed that. And actually I was, I never really thought too seriously about going into vocational ministry. I just wanted to go to seminary to study about god and amass student loans so that I didn't know how I was going to use it. It was like, people are like, what are you going to do this degree? I'm like, no idea, but I'm super into reading theology. So anyway, yeah, don't be like me, kids. If you're listening to this and you have zero vocational objectives for the degree you're getting, and yet somehow it worked out.
>> Peter Englert: Let me kind of ask you this, because, whether somebody is a skeptic or deconstructing, I feel like the word calling resonates more. And, as a millennial, the idea of calling, even if you're outside the church, it seemed like every millennial story was about some entrepreneur or somebody that sells everything they have to go to Africa to start this company in the world today. As you've kind of engaged this topic with people that follow Jesus and don't, what do you kind of see that's changed about calling right now as we talk?
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah, I think it's a good thing in a way. I mean, it has a shadow side, right? Where if you're just all about self expression, self actualization, and you read everything through that grid about what you're supposed to do with your life, as if it's the only thing, that can, that can have a downside for sure. And yet, I mean, like, I think all of us want to know, like God, what do you want me to do, with my life? that's a rather important question. Right. and the one distinction that really helped me was talking about common calling and particular callings. Theologians kind of make this distinction. I think it's a good one. There's the common calling. This is for christians where it's like, you are called to love God and love others. Right? That's, that's not negotiable. If you're, if you're a believer in Jesus, you're a follower of Jesus, you don't have to sit there and go, hm. Should I really, my neighbor as myself, I don't know, is God really calling me to do that? You know? Right. Then there's the particular calling. It's like, okay, am I supposed to be a plumber or a party, planner, or a pastor or whatever it is? And that's a little trickier. And that's where we get really weird and kind of stress out and go, okay, what am I supposed to do? What if I miss it? Right? What if I miss the boat and there was a sign in the sky that I didn't see, or flipping your bible open to a random passage and hoping that it tells you, what career you should, go for or what person you should marry or if you should marry or where you should live, right. Here's the thing that was really freeing for me to realize is that as you live out that common calling, that is loving God, loving others as best you can, and really trying to follow Jesus as best you can, the particular calling has a way of working itself out, of becoming clear, and you don't have to stress out about that and get the, like, you know, look for the sign in the sky or be worried that you're going to miss the boat. Or like, the particular evangelical subculture in which I grew up, there was this idea that if you, like, did one too many sins, somehow you're going to miss God's calling. I don't believe that. I believe in forgiveness. I believe in grace. Right. And so God, in spite of our shortcomings, our failures, our inability to read signs, God will direct us as we do our best to follow Jesus.
>> Peter Englert: Do you think we've put too much pressure on our careers?
>> Drew Dyck: Absolutely. Yeah, totally. You know, I mean, you look at folks in the Bible, right? Like Paul, what was he technically like? If you looked at him on paper, he was a tent maker, right? But is that what Paul was? No. I mean, he was the greatest missionary of all time, but he made his money making tents, right? And so sometimes, and I know that's more like a job than a career, but I do think, especially in the west, right, where we glorify success and, you know, economic, status. yeah. Putting way too much pressure on our career. And yet, at the same time, you know, I don't want to discount it because I think God really does care about what we do with our lives, not just, you know, in our hobbies and our friendships and our community, but how we make our money, right? A is it ethical? B, is it somewhat fulfilling? you know, I like the, Frederick Biechner definition where you're, oh, man, I'm going to butcher it. But where the world's great need meets your heart's gladness, look, it up, because that is not the right wording. But, that's great when that lines up. And yet we have to acknowledge, I mean, you look around the world, different parts of the world, where people just do the same thing that their dad did or their mom did. They don't have a choice about what they did vocationally. Are they somehow less than us? No. and yet, when we do have the opportunity to, When we have a few options and choices, why not, try to do the best thing that you can with your life?
>> Peter Englert: You know, I want to get to your book. Cause I think your book addresses a lot of things that non christians, and even christians care about. we live in a culture that it's paralysis by analysis. So, Anzi Stanzari wrote the book modern love. There's been a lot. Or modern romance, I think. And the fact that you have unlimited people that you could date. you think about careers, you have unlimited opportunities. And so you would think that that would bring clarity. But it brings hesitation and even something as simple like, you know, the 20 somethings that I know, and we're like two old guys talking about this, but the 20 somethings I know, like, really, really want to make a difference, but it just seems harder than ever because every single week, there's a new kind of crisis, there's a new opportunity, there's a new way to give, and I guess, how do you process over this world with unlimited options, almost unlimited callings? How are you trying to help people kind of assist in that area?
>> Drew Dyck: Great question. And you're absolutely right. There is a paralysis that happens when there are so many options. I love. there's an author, Pete Davis is his name, and he calls it infinite scrolling. infinite scrolling mode, I think. Right where, Oh, man, I'm butchering it. But it's, the Netflix, phenomenon where you get on there and there are so many things to watch, so many options, and that you spend hours just sitting there looking through all of them rather than committing to watching one show. And he contrasts that with what he calls long haul heroes. And he talks about people in his life, like a piano teacher who sat on the same bench, in the same house, on the same street for 25 years, teaching kids piano, or a coach or a teacher, or even Mister Rogers who recorded all these episodes over all these years. And he talks about the long haul. Heroes are the people who ultimately make the greatest impact. even if it's not some, you know, huge, world changing impact, they really do meaningfully affect the lives around them. And I thought, man, that's good, because, it's so easy to be the person who just kind of infinitely scrolls through all the options and never commits, rather than the person who deeply invests in their community in a place. And I think, yeah, there's this tendency to think like, oh, you need to just keep looking. There's so many options. But I'll tell you what, at the end of the day, I would rather have one mission than a thousand options. Right? And to commit. And you may not know, like, is this the right place, the right community to invest in? Is this the right career? Just start doing it, and then you'll be amazed at how that morphs and changes. but if you never actually sink your teeth into something, it's hard to make a difference and it's hard to know where to go. So, yeah, I do encourage people to commit wherever possible. And it also takes, you know, a sensitivity to, like, God's leading, not to put a spiritual veneer on this. But like, when you see needs arise or you feel moved by something and you move in that direction, that's often an indication that's where you're supposed to go. But don't hold back. Just commit with all you have and see where it takes you. That's my advice.
>> Peter Englert: I love it. so let's back up. I wouldn't say faithfulness is a bad word. it's actually one of my core values. Maybe this is a little, this podcast is personal for me bit. but this book just show up, you had to have a reason, something that you were wrestling with, and then talk to us about the impact. What was it about this topic that you felt? I am uniquely ready to write this, but then what's the impact? And the conversations that you've had about it, too?
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah, no, it was. Might, have been a bit of a midlife crisis that sparked the book, honestly, because I was thinking back to, when I was in seminary, my wife and I, went down to Pasadena, California, and she worked on campus in an art, center, and I was a student, and it's a great time of life. but I just remember how idealistic we were, and we had these big, grandiose visions of what we were going to do with our life, things that we were going to do for God. Right. It had a spiritual gloss on it, for sure. That's good. I think there's a place for that when you're just starting out. And I remember telling her, like, I don't want the american dream. Like, we're not going to have the 2.5 kids in the white picket fence. We're going to do something different. And here I am. Fast forward 20 years, 18 years, I guess. And, yeah, we have, we don't have 2.5 kids, we have three. we live in the suburbs. I don't have a white picket fence, but I totally get one if I could afford it. and then the question becomes like, okay, God, what now? Like, how am I faithful with my life? And don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. My life has turned out great. we have three wonderful kids and I enjoy my career, and I feel fulfilled in my life. but there's this idea that, man, did I miss the boat because I didn't do something radical, that I wasn't that missionary, that I didn't go overseas, that I'm not living in abject poverty. and I think the answer to that is no, you can be faithful where God's planted you. And it doesn't have to maybe look like I thought it did when I was younger. but just faithfulness, ultimately, is what matters. And furthermore, it's a real head trip to think that you have to change the world. Like, these days, I don't have the energy. And so to just go, okay, you know what? That's God's job. God changes the world, not me. That's putting way too much on me now. God can change the world through people. I believe that. And as we're faithful in the little things, God does amazing things through that. But that's God's job. So that really makes my life a lot easier. I just have to go, okay. What's the next thing in front of me, God, that you want me to do? And that's kind of where the title comes from. It's like a mantra I'd repeat to myself. Just show up, Drew. Just show up. Even when you're tired, you don't know what to do next. Just show up for the people in front of you. The next thing God's placed in front of you and see what happens.
>> Peter Englert: So let's talk about calling just for a second. so if I go beyond your years, let me know, but talk to Drew as a teenager, as a 20 something, and then, drew as a 30 something. What do you know now, even from writing this book, that you wish you could have told your teenage self, your 20 something self, and your 30 something self?
>> Drew Dyck: That's good, man. Well, first of all, to my teenage self, I'd say, unfortunately, Drew, you're not gonna make the NBA. you're not gonna get tall enough. It, doesn't matter how hard you work. It's not going to happen. So there'd be a little bit of disappointment there. to my 20 something self, though, you know what I'd say? Faithfulness is success. Faithfulness is success. because I think, like, in your twenties, man, I. At least I was so focused on, like, I was so worried about my GPA. No one cares about my GPA. You know how many people have asked about my GPA? Zero. Not even employers. Okay. Okay. And it was a good GPA, and I didn't get to brag about it. I guess I'm doing it right now anyway. and. And you're, like, building your resume and all that kind of stuff, and you're sweating this stuff, like, as if it all matters, and it does in a way, but not maybe in the way that you'll think it does. So I tell my younger self to relax a little bit. Things are going to work out. I was kind of a late to launch guy anyway. I was living in my parents attic when I was in my early twenties, staying up till 03:00 in the morning, going absolutely nowhere. but you know what? Things have a way of working out. And I just encourage myself, be faithful. Also shed some of that kind of mentality that I have to be someone that changes the world. And because I think, here's the cruel irony sometimes of that mentality when you're focused on becoming a big deal. Right? and maybe it's a spiritual thing. You just like, oh, I want to, like, be a voice to the nations or impact all these people. It can actually prevent you from the opportunities that God puts right on your lap. The people right in front of you, you can miss them. You can be so focused on being famous that you're not faithful. Right. So that's another thing I tell. Tell my younger self, chill, out a little bit. Keep your eyes open to what God's placed right in front of you. And don't eat so much. I'm in my forties now. Okay? So it catches up with you.
>> Peter Englert: So I saw you at a conference, and, you joked about your hype with the NBA. I talk a good six six. I dreamed of going to play basketball, but I'm only five six, so I'm there with you, brother. you know, so I'm in my midlife in some ways, and I've just been reading more and more. you know, again, we might be the same age, but I think what I'm kind of struggling with.
>> Drew Dyck: I think I got you, man. I'm in my mid forties.
>> Peter Englert: Okay.
>> Drew Dyck: I just.
>> Peter Englert: Well, I don't want to make any assumptions, but anyways, I know I.
>> Drew Dyck: Have such a baby face, you know?
>> Peter Englert: There you go. I like it. I like it. And keep, drinking that moody publisher cup so that we love it. We love it. Free promo.
>> Drew Dyck: See that? I wasn't even trying to get the merch in there, but had to have the plug.
>> Peter Englert: We love publishers. Well, so going back to the midlife thing, one of the things that really kind of annoys me about this calling question, I'm facing it a little bit as a parent, where people come up to me, very kindhearted and I appreciate it, and they're like, it's gonna fly right by. And I'm still in my mind trying to figure out, like, how that's helpful and like, even in my twenties, as I think about most of our listeners, like, you know, people would say things. My wife's a mental health therapist. So to tell an anxious person to calm down, I mean, it's just not helpful. you know, or to tell a 20 something, like, you have time. Like, I feel like every decade of our life, people are trying to give us this message that probably has some truth, but it's not received because we just live in this world. you're a little bit older than me. I love my daughter Lucy. I love Haley. We had 15 minutes of a straight conversation without someone crying. I thought it was the dream. And I think about when it could be a half hour. I'm just wondering if we just put pressure on ourselves because we put so many band aids on this. Hey, go make a difference. You can do anything, you know? I don't know. I'm just bringing up that thought. I don't know if that resonates with some of the advice that you gave, you know, your past self.
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah, no, that's true. And one thing about. There's this assumption that older people have a greater insight into your life phase than maybe they do. They have some, right? But the truth is, like, you forget what it's like day to day to be in a different life stage. Cause, yeah, I get that, too. Cause I saw fairly young kids. My kids are like, what? Twelve, nine and five. Right? And so. And then, yeah, older folks will. I get that all the time, man. It flies by, and I know that I can see it already because it's already going fast. But at the same time, like, what's the expression? The years are short, the days are long. they forget the exhaustion of, like, when you finally get your kids down at, like, 10:10 p.m. They're supposed to go down at 830, but it didn't work. And all this stuff. And then one gets up during the night, it's just like, you feel like you're in, like, a spin, cycle, and you're absolutely exhausted. And someone's like, oh, just enjoy it. Because, of course, they're 60. They remember all the beautiful moments and forget all the hard ones, which is great, but when you're in the thick of it, right, it's a different game. And so, yeah, of course you should slow down and smell the roses and enjoy your kids more. But it's tough. Life's tough. every stage is tough. I even romanticize being in school. I'm like, oh, man, I wish I could be in school. No real, like, responsibilities. No one's gonna repossess my house if I screw up. but school was hard. I remember the tests, the pressure, the uncertainty about the future. and so have a little grace for yourself. Whatever stage you're into. older people, they have fuzzy memories. We, can't tell you everything to do. Take the wisdom where you can. but I would say of any stage, though, chill out a little bit, especially if you're a person that's kind of ambitious or kind of high strung. I think that's good advice, regardless of what stage you're at.
>> Peter Englert: No, I love that. And where I kind of want to shift is, in kind of engaging and looking at your book and just kind of listening to you, I think maybe a liar. Perception. Someone could be even just by the title. Just show up is just show up everywhere. And so how would you encourage people? We're not saying, hey, paralysis by analysis, but there's other people that. It's like, yolo, maybe that's more millennial, but they don't want to miss out on opportunity. How have you personally processed through. When do I need to do a boundary? When do I feel like it and do it? How have you processed that in this idea of just show up?
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah, no, that's a great point to bring up, because with this message, there's this idea that some people could take it and go, wow, okay, so I need to show up for everything and say yes to everyone. But of course, if you do that, you can't show up in a meaningful way for anyone because you're spread too thin. Right? You're not infinite. You are a finite creature with limited, time, limited willpower, limited abilities, all the rest of it, right? So you have to be intentional about what you show up for. And actually, I have a whole chapter in the book called let something slide. basically, you know, and I give the silly example of my yard. Like, I had dreams for a while of having this beautiful, manicured, green, lush yard. Hasn't happened, for various reasons. Maybe I'm too lazy, but I came to the point where I was like, you know what? This is the kind of yard that kids dig for worms in and ride their bikes over. And it would require a lot of money and time. I don't have to sit there and fuss over it. So I'm gonna let that slide at this stage of life. Maybe when I'm older, I'll have a nice yard, but right now, I just don't have the time I have a busy family life, busy career. And so you have to identify those things that, you know, at this stage of life. And I'm not gonna feel guilty about it. I can't do it. I can't be part of the, you know, the PTA or, I can't, I can't volunteer for this role right now because I'm too busy here. And then, of course, that's easy to say. But then the real hard thing, and this is what you asked me about, how do you determine what you sideline and what you commit to? That's where it gets tricky. And one thing for me, like, when I look at the commitments that I have, I mean, some are non negotiable. I can't be like, yeah, I'm not going to be a dad this year. I'm just going to shelve that. Of course not. Or do my job. But there are a lot of kind of optional commitments that I have. And when I look at a commitment, I think, should I drop this? And if I think about dropping it and my primary emotion is relief, instead of grief, then maybe that's a sign that, hey, that's something I should offload. And, then I talk to people around me, especially my wife, and like, hey, should I? And she'll be like, yeah, you're not really good at that anyway. Why don't you let that go? And I'll tell you what, when I've done that, I've never regretted it. Because you think, like, oh, man, I'm going to disappoint someone or I'm going to regret it. But usually when you drop it, you don't and you actually realize it's better because you have more energy for the things that you are called to. So, yeah, that's a great point. We need to be intentional about what we're taking on because if you just take on everything, you get spread too thin and then you're not showing up for anyone.
>> Peter Englert: I'm going to ask you kind of a tough question. That kind of deals potentially tough. That deals kind of with your industry. so Christianity today, they did a whole article on publishing and how hard it is to get published because you need 10,000 followers or influencers. And, I'm bringing this up because in a lot of studies, Gen Z, the number one thing that teenagers want to become, is a YouTube sensation. and I don't want to overdo that. And you're writing a book, just show up. And it's about faithfulness and consistency. And sometimes the grass doesn't get green. How do you manage all of those tensions of you're part of an industry that it's about clicks, likes, follows, even you, like, we can even talk about, there's a weird, you're an editor, acquisitions person, but you're also a writer. how are you kind of managing this new frontier of the facts are the facts. Like either, you know, people are following you or they're not, but that's not necessarily the best indicator of success.
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah, well my plan has become a TikTok sensation, but I gotta work on my dancing, so we'll see how that goes. But, for real, I, it is attention, especially when you're a Christian, right? Because you can't just go like, that's it, I'm gonna get famous, become a big deal and try to become, you know, powerful or whatever it is. because that's not the goal ultimately. and, you know, it's about God, it's about other people. And so you really have to be careful because it can be destructive to your soul if you get too caught up in the game of trying to get visibility. Maybe not even famous, but like success, whatever that means. Online, going viral, getting lots of followers in my thing, selling lots of books. Right. and I'll be honest, it's a temptation. Like I, you know, it's tempting for me just to kind of obsessively go and check my Amazon ranking. Okay, you know, what's it at? How many books are selling? What kind of reviews am I getting? and yeah, that can get out of balance really fast. So it's attention to manage. But at the same time, for most of us, especially if you're in an industry like this, it's, you can't just go, okay, that's it. I'm gonna check out and live like a monk in my cabin, in the, in the woods. That's not an option either. So yeah, it's a constant kind of heart check thing where you're asking yourself, your motivations, why am I doing this? when is it getting a little too, about me? and some of it I hate because it's the new reality. I'll be honest. In publishing, when someone comes to us with a book idea, obviously we're evaluating the book idea first, their ability to write, that's all huge, but we're also going, okay, what's their position? How many followers do they have online? Can they get the word out about this book? so that's definitely part of the consideration, and so the way I encourage people to, and I'm speaking out of my own context of, like, book authors, is not to think of it in terms of, like, blowing up and becoming a big deal, but just going, who am I serving? Right. Even if it's like, you just got a Facebook group that you. That's, you know, built around a certain topic and you're helping people, on that topic, that counts. That's awesome. You know, whatever medium it's on, instead of thinking about it, like, oh, how big a deal am I? How many people are following me thinking about, how can I serve people well? And I usually find that if you do that, if you really do have a heart to serve people and you're dedicated to, like, developing the expertise and the ability to communicate on those topics, then you will have some sort of platform. Yeah, it's a dirty word, but, like, some sort of, audience that's willing to connect with you. but, yeah, it's constantly having to just recalibrate and going, wow, is this becoming too much about me? that's why I just make dumb jokes on Twitter, just to kind of, you know, bring myself down a peg.
>> Peter Englert: Well, let's get practical to our listeners. So I'm a 24 year old. I'm named Greg. I question Christianity, but I'm open to it. And, I'm listening to you talk. And what's unique that Christianity brings about calling that might not. I might not sense. I probably sense the pressure to be a big deal somehow, whether it's online, whether it's success, or even just the curated life. What in your mind is so unique about following Jesus that either allows you to navigate that question better or maybe provides relief in a world that just feels so pressured?
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah, well, I'd probably bring it back to the concept of grace. Right? That's God's unmerited favor. I remember, reading about Cs Lewis when someone asked him what's distinctive about Christianity. He says, easy, it's grace. That's a concept that's absent from other religions where this idea that even though we mess up, even though we're sinful, god loves us and forgives us. And I think that applies to calling, too. in the sense that when you're a follower of Jesus, there's this tremendous freedom in realizing that a, it's not all about you, right? That it's not all on your shoulders. Ultimately, God has a bigger, redemptive plan for humanity, and you're a minor character in that drama. and somehow that's freeing and it kind of takes the pressure off. And like I was saying earlier, if you just focus on following Jesus, loving others, loving God, then God's going to do something through, in you and through you. and it's not all on your shoulders, because I think that's a real head trip. If you're like, man, I'm just setting out by myself against the world and I have to do something big. And, then of course, when inevitably you fail to do something that lives up to your ideals or your dreams, and you've seen all the stats about people in their twenties or teenagers thinking they're going to be famous by a certain age. Well, spoiler alert, that doesn't happen for most people, the, ah, vast majority. And then there's this sort of guilt, like, wow, why did I fail? What happened? And when you're a follower of Jesus, you don't have to worry about that. You can abandon the outcomes of your life to God. I like that. So it's not just all on you and there's freedom in that. So, yeah, I think that's what I'd say, is that there's a freedom in self forgetfulness too. It's hard to get there. and yet, if you can, you're really free to love others.
>> Peter Englert: Well, I want to shift a little bit. and this is like you and me are having coffee, in the northwest, which, by the way, someday I want to go visit the northwest. I haven't been there yet.
>> Drew Dyck: Come on out.
>> Peter Englert: I made the classic east coast mistake. I went to southern California. I was like, I should go check out San francisco. And it's like 8 hours away. But that's a whole other topic. One of the books I really appreciated that you wrote was, about self control. And I'm kind of curious, what connections do you see between just showing up, faithfulness and self control? And how does that meet our culture today? in a world that those two things, I wouldn't say people dislike them, but it's not easy to live out.
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah, no, you're right. Yeah, I have a knack for picking the sexy topics, don't I? yeah. Self control is not exactly a popular virtue. And just showing up's hard, especially because we're all like, just digitally connected. And that physical presence piece is so hard. I think there is a connection because, I mean, first of all, to show up for other people, especially it takes self control because by definition, self control even if you're doing something good and it's easy, it's not. Doesn't really take self control, but if you're exercising self control, it means you're doing something hard. Usually you're setting aside your selfish interests to think about someone else. and it's just, I would say, impossible to have good relationships without self control. You, can't, be faithful to a spouse without self control. You can't be honest without self control. So whatever virtue you're talking about, and I expand on this in the book about how self control is a sort of foundational virtue that enables you to grow in all the other areas of your life. but if you don't have it, you're really in trouble. And I think that's true, too, when it comes for, you know, it's hard to show up for the work that God's placed in front of you. That's not easy, even if you have a conviction. This is what I'm supposed to do, man, walking that out is hard. Like, I feel like I'm supposed to be a writer. But I'll tell you what, when I open up that blank word, doc, it's awful. It's like, this is terrible. I just want to get out of here. I just want to scroll on my phone. so it takes self control to do that. It takes self control to help people when they're in need, of. So, yeah, I definitely think there's a connection there, but I hadn't really thought about it until this point. It's funny because when it comes to, like, writing books, at least for me, you know, writing non fiction books, they all grow out of a challenge that I've had in my life or something. I've been thinking about, I mean, the self control one, I wasn't even thinking about writing a book. I was just researching the topic and reading all these books, you know, christian books and secular books about the topic. Then all of a sudden, halfway through reading, I'm like, hey, maybe there's a book here. and so, yeah, but I do believe there is a connection there.
>> Peter Englert: So let's talk recently, because I think the foundational points of being faithful just show up, to kind of really engage your calling. What's something that people wouldn't see necessarily on X or Instagram that you do that? It's kind of your, it's a visible symbol of living out the principles of the book. What's that example for you?
>> Drew Dyck: Wow, that's tough, because I like to brag about all the good things I do on Twitter. or what do they call it? X.
>> Peter Englert: Now, he's an entertaining follow it.
>> Drew Dyck: Ah.
>> Peter Englert: Causes me to smile a lot. So there you go.
>> Drew Dyck: Thank you. I don't get enough validation at home, I feel like, from my kids and my wife, especially about my jokes. And so I have to go online and find that there's, Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I, you know, I have a heart for kids, especially mine. and, and just, I don't know, the little things of, of being there for friends and community. And honestly, it's an area which I'm still struggling because, like, I joke, like, oh, I love people, theoretically, but actually being there for them sometimes is hard for me. It's, not natural. I'd rather send a text than go to someone's house. I'd rather teach on a topic than maybe live it out sometimes. And so I'm still growing in that area. but I live a pretty boring, but fulfilling life, just with the community I have around me. Lots of family in the area. We don't plan our weekends, they're planned for us, it seems. and yet it's a very rich and fulfilling life. So I'm grateful more than anything. and the other thing, too. Like, I make a lot of dumb jokes online, and I'm a pretty easygoing guy, but I also struggle with anxiety. I have an anxiety disorder. I talk about that in the book a little bit and how I've had to navigate that. That's been tough. and my wife will say, like, yeah, people just think you're this big goofball, but you kind of have this other side to you where you struggle with, like, melancholy and anxiety and depression. so that's another side to things that I continue to struggle with. And you know what some of those things, like, you think, man, when it struck me in my twenties, I thought, oh, I'll get over this. You know, this maybe be a six month thing. and here I am still struggling with it, I think, in better ways, in healthier ways. and yet it's an ongoing challenge.
>> Peter Englert: So, yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. I know we're coming to a close soon. I think, first of all, you should buy the book, read the chapter. So let's kind of start there. But I'm sure somebody writing about just show up and facing anxiety and faithfulness. sometimes it's like, just get over it. So, why don't you kind of tell people how you experienced it, how you've kind of come through it and where you are at now, because I think that that would be helpful. This isn't a book to just tell you to push through it either, right?
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah. And that's certainly for people that are dealing with some mental illness issues. That is not helpful when people just say, if you're dealing with worry, I just don't worry about it or calm down. and yet I've been really concerned and intentional about not letting anxiety derail my life, because sometimes it'd be easy just to kind of stay home to avoid certain opportunities. I remember even when I started writing, I'd get, invitations once in a while to speak, and my wife Grace caught me in this. She's like, you're just not room replying to these. And I was like, yeah, because I was too scared to do it. Right. but then often when you face into your fears, right, they get smaller. And so that's been huge. And also the big thing, too, when it comes to mental illness of any kind, I would imagine, especially anxiety and depression, is making sure you have that, community around you. And that's what I didn't have when I first experienced this in, my twenties, and that was a big mistake because I thought, and maybe this is part of being a dude. I was like, no, I'm going to take care of this myself. I wouldn't even tell people about it. It's so weird. Like, I'd have someone else tell me, like, yeah, I really struggle with anxiety. And I'd be like, oh, tell me about that. Sounds hard. I'll be praying for you, man. Like, not even tell them that I was going through the exact same thing. and so I've just really learned to be more open about it. And you know what? People don't care. People don't judge. Things have changed. There used to be more of a stigma around this kind of stuff, but I, even in the church, I feel that. I felt like that's changed a lot for the better. which is great. And often people will just go, yeah, man, I deal with that, too, or something similar. And so I feel like when you're vulnerable about it, it just gives people permission to talk about it as well. but, yeah, it's an ongoing thing, but, man, relationships are huge when it comes to that issue. You don't want to be a lone ranger. Lone rangers are dead rangers.
>> Peter Englert: So, like, when you were in your twenties, you know, because self control and faithfulness, all kind of, you know, what did it look like? Was it a spinning mind? Were you getting, just a knot in your heart? Were you pacing? What did it look like?
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah, panic attacks. I didn't know what they were at that point. Thought I was dying. Convinced, that I had some terminal disease, for a while because I was having all these strange symptoms. Of course, looking back, I realized I was at a really high stress time. I was working and, you know, getting my master's degree and terrified about what I was going to do in the future and all this stuff. but, yeah, like, and waking up, you know, couldn't sleep, pacing, wouldn't eat for days at a time. Just awful. What I now know were panic attacks, anxiety. and so, yeah, it was a huge challenge because up until then, my life had been pretty good. You know, it had been like, pretty, chill, and I'd never. And I. And then I really resisted the idea that I had some. Something wrong with my brain. I was like, no, no, no, I'm a strong person. This is not me. and I'd argue with doctors. I'm like, no, you don't understand. There's something physical wrong with me. It's not anxiety. resisted getting on medication for years. Finally, agreed to do that, and it was helpful. Now, I'm not on medication, but I recommend with people, if you need medication, you need to do it. so, yeah, it was, something that really rocked my life. It also humbled me. I think that was good. Some of these things can take you out of the knees. Like, I'm a really opinionated person and I may be a little cocky, probably still am, but, man, that had a way of humbling me for sure.
>> Peter Englert: So I think this is probably a good place to bring it to a close. I'm really glad that you went there. And, I know it's not easy to share and kind of the two questions, the two ways. So why isn't my calling more clear? we could talk about someone that's super confident, maybe overly confident, but I think the majority of us are kind of super anxious. And that manifests itself as I have to get everything done tomorrow or I'm going to hesitate and do nothing. How do you know with just show up and finding why isn't my calling clear? How do you know when to push yourself within your anxiety versus, you know, maybe my anxiety is pushing me to do this.
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah, man, that's a great question. I don't know if I have a great answer for that. but when it comes to pursuing your calling, incidentally, I haven't figured it out myself. Right. It's funny because I always thought, like, this is, like, a question for 20 year olds. And, of course, I think it is more pressing at that age or in your twenties. and you always envy the person that's, like, from the time they're five, like, I'm gonna be a nurse or whatever, you know, it's like, they just know, right? There's, like, those few people. it was never like that for me. and here I am in my forties, and I'm still kind of like, God, what do you want me to do? And it's, you know, sure, some puzzle pieces have fallen into place, but there's still some blank spots. anyway, so, but what I consider when it comes to the anxiety thing, try not to make decisions based on fear. That's what I'd say. easier said than done, right? But when there's something that you're like, man, there's, like, a deeper part of you that goes, I think God wants me to do that. I think I'm called to that. I think that I have something to contribute in this area, and yet I got this social anxiety, or whatever it is, and it's uncomfortable. Don't listen to the anxiety. Listen to that nudge in your soul that's a little deeper now, at, the same time, that doesn't mean that you don't have to get rest, that you don't have to, you know, don't burn yourself out doing these things. You know, be mindful of your limitations. And certain m mental health challenges come with extra limitations that other people don't have. But don't let your life get cramped. Don't let the walls kind of shut in on you. You know, this is how people with, like, what's it called, agrophobia, where they can't leave the house, you know, they have a panic attack in the grocery store, and they go, okay, no more grocery stores for me than it happens on a plane. No more flying for me. Right. And it's. I'm not blaming them. It's a awful thing. But your world gets smaller and smaller, and that can happen in sort of a different way. if you bow to fear too often. And the other thing I'd say, last thing I'd say about that is just that don't look too far down the road. That's paralyzing, especially if you're prone to worry and anxiety, because you're like, oh, I got to think about what I'm going to be doing in five years or ten years. And, oh, my goodness, am I doing enough? Am I going the right direction? Just look at today. Jesus talked about this. He said, give no thought for tomorrow. That's the old translation. Give no thought for tomorrow. What you'll do, what you'll, wear and eat and stuff like that. Today has enough problems of its own. Isn't that true? Just focus on today. It's the only day that you can actually live in any way. So the more you can focus on today, the better off you'll be.
>> Peter Englert: You know? you probably. Are you. Are you more introverted or extroverted?
>> Drew Dyck: You know, I do those tests. I come down, like, right in the middle, just slightly to the extroverted side.
>> Peter Englert: Okay, well, you know, so when you talked about fear being, like, what's the motivation? I tend to be kind of the opposite of, like, fear holds me back to do nothing. It's actually. And I was just kind of thinking of applying it. For me, it's. I'm scared if I don't do that. interesting. What will happen?
>> Peter Englert: I'll just be transparent. doing this podcast, for some reason, I don't know if it was bad pizza. We don't have poutine. We have garbage plates. Google it for Rochester, New York. But they pour grease.
>> Drew Dyck: I've heard of those.
>> Peter Englert: Okay. but for some reason, I woke up one day, and I was like, to host a podcast, I have to be posting five days a week. and the fear is, like, if I don't post on behalf of the podcast, it's all going to go away. And I think you had a beautiful way of talking about it, because I'm sure the majority of people, the reason why their calling's not clear, the reason why they don't show up, is actually because they're scared and they do nothing. But there's a segment of us that we're actually scared if we don't do it. How that messes up and no one sits there and tells you, no one really cares. Like, in a loving way. As a pastor, I officiated a funeral last week. if I don't show up for that funeral and I can be scared, there's a greater responsibility. But even for me, the way that I'm kind of applying it is if you're so scared that something isn't going to happen, that's probably not a good reason to do it.
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah, that's right. No. And, that's where you have to kind of do the deeper evaluation of, is this something I'm really called to? And then once you determine, say that it is, then you fight through the fears and it sounds like maybe what you're dealing with is, and I deal with this as well, a form of perfectionism where you go, okay, if I'm going to do this, I've got to do it like to the max. And it's got to be amazing. It's got to be perfect. And like you said, I got to post five times a week. and then that has a paralyzing effect, right. That can freeze you and keep you from doing it instead of kind of having an incremental approach and just go, okay, I'm just going to do the first part of this and then another little part, see where it goes. And maybe, and here's a thing people don't tell you when you're young, maybe you just do it halfway for a while, warm up to it, see where the success is. And then all a sudden you go, oh, now I have a little m my schedule shifted. I have a little more time to devote to this. Now I really hit the gas. Right. But, man, I mean, how many things are we kept back from? Because we think that to start even, we have to have it totally figured out or be amazing at it. But, like, people, you know, I've seen a hundred times where it's like, listen, the first time you do something, you're going to suck at it. and you have to be comfortable with that. That's tough, especially if you're a perfectionist. But, but if you don't start, you'll never get there.
>> Peter Englert: No, that's great. Well, this, this conversation's gone by really fast. what we do is we do final remarks. And so I'll just kind of give some of my thoughts and then, whatever heresy or mess I leave, you can clean up. Does that sound good?
>> Drew Dyck: Perfect.
>> Peter Englert: As you were drinking coffee, you know, just like the waiter that comes in and says, hey, do you want anything else? And you just ate some poutine, but we won't go there. So anyways, I think the reason why I was really excited about this episode is I just sense, I hope you listeners have seen that this question, why isn't my calling clear? It's not just a 20 something. And I think, Drew, you just said it, but also, we've been talking about it before that maybe what God's asking of us, whether you're following Jesus or not. it's not as clear big picture wise, but it's super clear, in the little picture, or however we would say that. And something that I've been reflecting on lately is, am I asking more of myself than God's asking of me? And even going back to this idea of just showing up, probably the most meaningful things that have happened in my life are things that aren't on social media. from, like I mentioned, officiating a funeral, being with my daughters, even I feel this pressure as an extrovert that I'm always the one initiating things. but even just to find the purpose that as an initiator, you're serving and just providing people the opportunity to show up is just a beautiful thing and how much people really, really appreciate that. So I just think with our calling being so clear, maybe it's time to zoom in as opposed to zoom out. And I think that that's kind of the big thing that I'm learning. Maybe focusing more on our common calling from God and not our particular calling.
>> Drew Dyck: Yeah, no, that's. Well said. I didn't detect any heresy. I might be getting sloppy, but, yeah, I think that's a good word. Yeah. Zooming in a little bit on your life rather than. And listen, I understand goals, long term planning, vision, all that stuff is important, right. But I think sometimes we overemphasize that, to be honest. And because, I mean, it's funny because I actually love, like, scheming and dreaming about the future. What I don't love is doing the hard thing right in front of me. but of course, the ladder is more, fruitful. and so I think having that kind of narrowing your scope a little bit can be really helpful. And then also, you know, being a little easier on yourself that you're not in this alone. Right. Especially if you're following Jesus. God's got a plan. It's not all contingent upon your awesomeness. You, can relax a little bit. God's, going to do what God's going to do, and he's going to use you. but you don't have to be perfect for that to happen. So, yeah, chill out a little bit and enjoy the ride, because it does go by fast.
>> Peter Englert: Well, Drew, there's a lot of irony in what I'm about to ask you, but where can people follow you online and see?
>> Drew Dyck: Yes. so, yeah, as you know, I spend too much time on x, formerly known as Twitter. so you can always connect with me there. I also have a website which is just my name, drewdick.com. My last name is Dyck, and you can see some cheesy pictures of me and my family. You can read a free chapter from the book. and then, of course, if you're in the northwest, drop by and we'll have some coffee and go to Powell's, the best bookstore in the world. A whole city blocked bookstore. It's amazing.
>> Peter Englert: You know what? I wouldn't expect an editor to close any other way. So thank you so much for, thank you so much for joining us. You can find more about us@ygodwhypodcast.com. Click the subscribe button. You'll get an email with this episode and many others to come. Thank you so very much.