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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.
Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.
Marc Beckman: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] um, District Attorney Katz and Bureau Chief LaCourte, it's great to have you both on some future day. Thank you for joining me today.
Melinda Katz: It is our pleasure. Thanks for having us.
Marc Beckman: All right. So, T. A. Katz, I, obviously I do my research. I don't know if you've seen the show before. If you haven't, I hope you take the time to see some episodes, but we have a lot in common, starting with something that I think is right, Did your mom pass away at a very young age?
Melinda Katz: Yes, when I was three years old, my mother was traveling in upstate New York, uh, and she was hit, uh, by, let's just say, an illegal driver, uh, and a day later she died of her injury. So yes, so by the time I was three years old, my father, who was the founder of the Queen's Symphony Orchestra, was, uh, Uh, was raising four children, a 15 year old, 13 year old, 8 year old, and a 3 year old.
And that was me at a [00:03:00] time, quite, quite honestly, when men, you know, it was a different time. It was 55 years ago. Uh, and it was unusual, but he raised us on his own, and here I am.
Marc Beckman: it's pretty remarkable. Um, the reason I ask you is because my mother lost her father when she was three. And something that she's taught me from that experience is looking at the world with a little bit of humor. And I'm wondering if the passing of your mother Um, instituted some sort of a code that you live by that maybe you're passing along to your children now that's been important, um, in light of all of the adversity and darkness that, you know, someone in your position sees regularly.
Melinda Katz: What it has taught me throughout my entire career and my life and the way I bring up my children is that, you know, we need people who will speak up for those that don't have a voice. I do remember very clearly not having a mother growing up, right? You know, people would come to the PTAs with their mothers.
My father was a working dad. He did the best he could and he did amazing. [00:04:00] Um, but there was always something missing in my life, and to me, it looked more like an advocate, right, and you know, so I was always determined in my professional capacity. To be somewhat of an advocate for people, to be a voice for people who don't have a voice, for people who don't feel like they have a voice, someone that they can turn to in their time of need when everyone else says to them, Ah, you know, it is, it is what it is, life is that way, you're never going to be able to change it.
You know, so my career really has been, pushed that way. because of that. Um, and again, you know, my dad was gone then by the time I was 20. Uh, and so I've been on my own a long time, uh, and try to be there for other people. And I try to teach my children that too.
Marc Beckman: That's really an important lesson. I think that all New Yorkers should take that to heart. And I've seen you advocate beyond, um, your role as just I think recently the opinion piece that you wrote in the Daily News surrounding Women in, in [00:05:00] general, as it relates to, um, r**e coming off of the October 7th atrocities in Israel was just a magnificent, beautiful, and important piece.
you know, thank you for writing that for the entire community, um, for all women alike. I'm wondering if, if you feel like that piece moved the needle at all. Did you feel like it had the reception that you were hoping for now, five months later, or?
Melinda Katz: You know, as the district attorney, we don't pick and choose our battles, but you have to fight the fights worth fighting. And at the end of the day, October 7th, to me, It was a day of, um, devastation for women in Israel, uh, for people in Israel, but you know, there was rapes and there was assaults and, um, I, I, I I didn't sense the outrage.
You know, there's a lot of groups out there and there's a lot of women's groups and a lot of advocates that fight every single day for, uh, equality and, and against sexual assault and for the rights of women to control their [00:06:00] body. Uh, and I did not sense that outrage out there for October 7th. Uh, and I felt like I had to speak out.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, since then I see that like Sheryl Sandberg has stood up and she's done some important work on that front, but I think generally speaking, at least in my opinion, it's been fairly quiet. but going back to your family, your father, uh, you mentioned your dad and what he built as far as You know, within the Queens community and the music sector.
And, uh, I think his success really grew, um, in that space. Pretty phenomenal. It went from just being a small little entity to growing in a big way. Um, was he also the founder of Long Lake Camp?
Melinda Katz: My father was the founder of, of Long Lake Camp. He used to go to a camp called Bucks Rock with my mother, uh, and our, all the kids. Um, and then he bought a place in Long Lake, uh, in 1968. Um, in fact, it was on the way up there that my mother was actually killed. And [00:07:00] so, but he ran this summer camp, and it's amazing how many famous, you know, actors and actresses came from this performing arts camp.
But, so I had the, I had the experience in the 70s of being in a very, you know, Um, I don't know what the right word is. Hippie like atmosphere, uh, at a summer camp, you know, which was very cutoff and during the seventies and the whole bit. Um, and so I, I had a very nice time there, good childhood and yes, he founded it and it still exists.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, I, I, uh, bring that up because I said we have a lot in common and actually my sleepaway camp, Camp Equinox, has been a major part of my life. Um, I actually went through law school and kept on working there. I went as a child and through law school. It wasn't too far from where Woodstock, uh, the music festival was in Beth El, so I could relate to that.
The names of the individuals that came out of Long Lake are way more impressive than My camp, um, Adrian Brody, Rumer Willis, you guys really [00:08:00] have an incredibly talented, um, platform that your family has built there. Um, so that, so I'd love to connect with you on that, but last but not least, and then we'll get into guns, is I hear that you are a solid maker of pancakes, and I have to challenge you on this.
I, I understand that your, um, technique is Mickey Mouse pancakes, but I'm not sure you're the best in New York City, to be honest with you.
Melinda Katz: I challenge that. So I have my recipe from my grandmother who literally came from the Ukraine, uh, with her husband and, you know, Like at that time, three of her children, my mother was actually born in Canada, uh, and I have her recipe. So it's an old Ukrainian recipe and I don't think it's anything unusual, uh, but my sons and I make pancakes on the weekends and yes, we have been prone to make Mickey Mouse pancakes.
Although now that they're 13 and 15, it's less so. Now they like silver dollars. But yeah, I think it's a good [00:09:00] tradition for a family, truthfully, right? So you have a Sunday morning or a Saturday morning, and in an age where teenagers are constantly going to their computers, or their iPads, or their phones, you know, we make it a tradition that we cook together.
We clean together. Uh, and, um, you know, they now do it and, and hopefully, uh, I'm working towards them doing it by themselves, quite honestly. Um, but yes, I think it's a good tradition in today's modern technology.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, I think that's really fantastic. Golden pancakes here in my household are, um, you know, paramount to everything on the weekend. Everything has to stop for, stop for my golden pancakes recipe, but let's get serious. We're here today to talk about what I think is, um, You know, uh, an alarming situation, but to give just my audience some context first, I pulled some data that I'd like to share.
I know that you and, and Mr. LaCorte are aware of it, [00:10:00] but um, in looking at global data as it relates to guns in America, The United States has 4 percent of the entire world's population. 40 percent of our civilians actually own guns when compared to the rest of the world. We are the first in firearms per capita as it relates to civilians.
Almost 400 million people own guns in the United States. I pulled a Research, um, some research information from Pew 2023, uh, 42 percent of American households admit to gun ownership. 47 percent of non gun owners can see themselves owning guns in the future. 61 percent say it's too easy to own a gun. 40 percent of illegal gun cases tracked by the ATF are, created on black market sales.
So it's, it's pretty alarming gun. I call it Guns Incorporated. It's a big business that's wielding huge [00:11:00] influence. I'm just barreling through this quickly, but, the guns and ammunition, ammunition manufacturing industry in the United States today, according to IBIS world is almost 21 billion and sees a 5.3 annual growth. So. That takes me to ask you, um, you know, to bring it down to New York State, DA, who can legally own a gun in New York State? Like, what are the credentials as it relates to age, process, um, capabilities, that type of information?
Melinda Katz: So to own a gun legally in the state of New York, the application process has changed since a case went through the Supreme Court called Bruin. But you have to make the application and there's certain criteria there used to be and I think there still is a mental health capacity issue, there's a slight waiting period, there's Uh, a lot of hoops that one needs to go through and I think rightfully so.
I think the important part of this, um, is, is that most of the crime [00:12:00] is not created by those that are legally owning guns. Most of the crime, and I'm not sure we've had one prosecution except for guns at the airports, uh, that were done, uh, with legally owned guns. Uh, obtained weapons except for maybe, you know, a domestic violence issue or something like that.
But they're mostly guns that people buy on the street, buy out of the trunk of a car, buy, uh, you know, um, from, um, vendors that are coming in from, Virginia or North Carolina or South Carolina, and that is the major problem here in New York State. Which is, I may not be able to get, get a gun legally, because the requirements are so strict in New York.
But I certainly can, uh, set up a, uh, system, in which in Virginia and North Carolina, they are buying them legally. Then they are bringing them up the Iron Pipeline, which is the east coast of the United States. And then they are bringing them into my borough and then they're selling them to our kids mostly.
Um, you know, older teenagers, young [00:13:00] adults mostly. and so those are where the crimes in general, I'm not saying only, but that's where that's happening is people who are untrained, unlicensed, they have it for protection or to use aggressively. They are using them, uh, on the streets. Because remember, even if you can get a home license in New York State, chances are very good that getting one that you can carry around on the street would be extremely difficult.
And, and so these illegal weapons These are the issue in New York State. What is really exasperating that is the fact that you can buy pieces of guns on the internet and you can create them with a 30 minute YouTube video in your home. So you go onto the internet and you buy a piece of plastic gun, right?
So it's plastic, it's called polymer. And they start with what's called a lower receiver. So the lower part of the gun, if you envision a gun like this, right? Um, and this is a [00:14:00] piece of plastic. And then you build the gun on the piece of plastic. And those pieces, when I first started, and I'll tell you how fast, uh, technology has gone.
Uh, when I first started, you know, you could only get them from like a hundred different vendors on the internet, right? You'd have to go and you'd have to look and, and, uh, you know, that's why I created the Crime Strategies and Intelligence Bureau, which Shanon is in charge of. You could buy them from a different places on the internet to try and not get caught.
Now, you can buy them in a kit. You can go down to Pennsylvania or down to any of these places and buy them just in a kit. The pieces are all there. And the laws had not caught up with that. And now they're starting to catch up with it. And so that's a huge part of what we do. 39 percent of the ghost guns that were recovered in the city of New York are from Queens.
We have made it our goal. And my priority, to get the guns off the street, and that includes ghost guns, which by the way, if you just look [00:15:00] at this, are now being used for assaults, and robberies, and, uh, murders, and drive by shootings, uh, and, and gang weapons. So, a very important part of what we do is to find the guns and get them before they kill anyone.
Marc Beckman: So, so you talk about, um, a polymer material to create these, um, ghost guns. Is that where the 3D printing process comes into play? Are they created vis a vis 3D printing?
Melinda Katz: There are two ways that you can create a gun in the basement of your house right now. And I say right now because I don't know what's going to happen next year. But we are ahead of the curve of finding out, of finding these guns that you can create. You can create a gun by buying pieces of it, which is different than a 3D printer.
So you buy pieces of it from out the country or in a kit now. Uh, and you can create it, but you're not printing it. You can also put a gun in and print a gun. [00:16:00] Those are two different ways, think about this, of your next door neighbor. or the guy who lives in the basement of your apartment building, or your son, or your daughter, to get onto YouTube and be able to create these types of weapons.
And they are usable, they can be silenced, they can be, the barrels can be changed so that they are unidentifiable, um, and it is extremely dangerous. Um, because they're not identified, there's no serial numbers, there's nothing like that, you can change the barrel, Uh, very easily. They are the same types of weapons that you can turn into semi automatics.
Um, and so they are just as dangerous as the iron guns, and they are a lot easier to get.
Marc Beckman: So when you talk about, um, these guns, these polymer guns being just as dangerous as iron guns, how durable are they? What type of force is it? As deadly as what we [00:17:00] know, um, or what we, what most people know as, uh, you categorize the iron gun, is the ghost gun as deadly?
Melinda Katz: Well, the ghost gun's as deadly if you make it properly, right? So we take down, um, people, uh, you know, um, I don't know. Every few weeks we take down someone else that has, uh, guns in their basement or in a room, uh, in in their house. And I have to tell you, we lay the guns out on the street sometimes, uh, on the, uh, on the table sometimes, and You know, very often, you can't tell the difference between the polymer guns and the iron guns.
You take a look, you try to tell the difference, but you really can't. Um, and, uh, so it's really, it's It's like any weapon, right? It's how well it's made, it's how strong it is, it's the type of, uh, differences that you put in it. Do you put in a high capacity magazine? Does it have a long barrel? Does it have a short barrel?
Uh, and so you can make it as powerful or not, [00:18:00] uh, as it comes.
Marc Beckman: So, so just to be clear, because I'm still a little confused with this. So I can use, or anyone can create with a 3D printer today, a ghost gun, which could be a machine gun, an assault weapon. They could create bombs and mines all with a polymer. material which is not traceable and not detectable. Is that, is
Melinda Katz: Well, the answer is yes, and I'm going to let Shanon talk a little bit about the different material that's used in a 3D printer, as opposed to a ghost gun, because remember, it's very different. For a ghost gun, you don't need a 3D printer. So for a ghost gun, you're getting parts that are already made from throughout the country.
And when I do this, what I'm really trying to point out is that for a long time, we had no way of tracking Right, you can buy different pieces from throughout the country and different vendors, like from over a hundred vendors, and there was no way to track that you were creating weapons. The [00:19:00] reason I created the Crime Strategies Unit with Shanon Lacorte was because I needed someone who could track where the different parts of the guns were coming from to know that someone was actually creating a weapon as opposed to another, you know, tool.
Marc Beckman: let's start, Shanon, just with a definition of like, what the firepower is that we're talking about. And most people just have in their imagination, it's like a water pistol. But, you know, what I've learned in spending some time with you, it's not that at all.
So can you lay out like what you've actually seen as it relates to machine guns, assault weapons, these types of elements first, please?
Shanon LaCorte: Absolutely. I think the first thing is to sort of disabuse everybody of the notion that A ghost gun or a 3D printed firearm, which as the DA noted is a sort of sub category of ghost gun, uh, are absolutely as durable, as deadly, as capable of firing ammunition through them, uh, at a rapid pace, [00:20:00] um, and, and in some cases even more so because, you know, now we've gone from, as the DA said, buying these kits or these parts in the mail to people not only Using 3d printers to print these parts at home and assemble their own firearms, but design them as well.
We now have privately designed firearms. So individuals are using this technology, using computer aided digital files or CAD files and 3d printers to make designs to their own specifications and modifications. And the reason why I say in some instances more deadly is because Because They're sometimes made to look like toys. Specifically, we've recovered certain types of models of firearm that use different PLA or poly lytic acid. That's the filament that you used in a 3D printer and one of the types of material you can make a 3D printer gun. And they will be different colors, blue, red, yellow, mixtures of colors, different designs.
So, looking [00:21:00] like nerf toy guns, um, and they have been mistaken by individuals in the civilian population as well as law enforcement for just that, for toys, uh, when in fact, they're actually deadly and dangerous firearms. And the modifications, um, the modifications continue. You can, you can make them, as the DA noted, semi automatic, fully automatic, like a machine gun.
People are 3D printing silencers, uh, they're 3D printing, uh, extra grips and modifications, Things that again, make them more concealable and more deadly.
Marc Beckman: So, is it fair to say, then, that these 3D printed guns are as effective as the iron guns?
Shanon LaCorte: Absolutely. And again, as the DA noted, it depends not in a hundred percent of the cases. We've definitely recovered some firearms that might explode when fired, which again, also makes them more dangerous because if the intended user isn't expecting it to explode or backfire in their hand, they can get injured.
Um, but they are absolutely just as durable. [00:22:00] As the, as the iron pipeline gun and, uh, again, with modifications, uh, and, and other sort of upgrades, depending on who's built them and who's designed them, uh, they're, they're just as deadly as the real thing.
Melinda Katz: but this is the huge problem, right? So I go out into the community, uh, almost every day. And at the end of the day, people hear ghost guns and they hear 3D printer guns. And when I say to them that we've taken down more than anyone else, you know, citywide, 39 percent of them in our borough, I think that they imagine that they are subpar.
Uh, from the iron guns. And it's not true. And by the way, if they have no aluminum, if they have no, like, iron bullets in them, you also can get through a magnetometer, uh, and things of that nature, because they are plastic. So, to some extent, they are more versatile. They are made to your specifications. They are built the way you want them to be built.
Uh, and they shoot as fast or as slow as you desire. Um, and [00:23:00] that, that creates a very dangerous situation. And they are being built. In someone's apartment next to you. And that's the problem too. Right? So it's not like you have to go out to an alleyway and, and buy it with the worry that there's a police officer or that's an undercover officer, or a cop is looking over your shoulder.
You're, you're creating it in the privacy of your home. And, Until we had this Crime Strategies Unit, there was very little way of finding you.
Marc Beckman: So, it sounds like this is just another scenario of technology disrupting industry. In this instance, it's, it's disrupting weapons. Firearms, um, bombs and, and IEDs and these types of items, but it also seems like technology is outpacing legislation. Da Katz, you mentioned that this shouldn't be categorized, or at least you implied that this really shouldn't be ghost guns shouldn't be categorized as like a [00:24:00] subcategory of firearms.
Is that what we're seeing right now? Are we, uh, in a situation where technology is outpacing legislation?
Melinda Katz: So just last year, there were new laws that were passed which do give us a little more effective means in getting these guns off the street. But there is no doubt you need more proactive gun laws. You know, we need to elevate the existing offenses. If the individuals use 3D printers to manufacture these firearms and components and accessories, um, And, and we need to, to support ATF's efforts, you know, international, nationally, um, and, and the laws in New York, I think the, the international laws need to catch up too, right?
There needs to be, um, if you bring in a gun from Virginia that, uh, is, you know, coming to Queens and you wouldn't be able to buy that gun in Queens, but you bought it legally in Virginia, you know, there's a lot to catch up on. I'm bringing them over. Um, the line, even, even if they're 3D printers, um, [00:25:00] or even if they're, uh, ghost guns.
So yeah, we need to catch up. Last year we caught up a little bit. you know, it used to be that the lower receivers, which you can put a lower receiver, and before last year, if there weren't, there are holes in the lower receivers.
If they weren't, pushed out the holes, you know, in order to hold the other parts of the gun, the, punishment was lower, right? And so it was hard to prosecute them. Um, we have changed the law a little bit, and that has been helpful.
Shanon LaCorte: and, and if I could just expand on that point a little bit and, and allude to what you were saying, Mark, um, the DA is absolutely right. We, we got these new tools in law enforcement, which were appreciative of, of the legislature and the governor. Um, and, and one of those, one of those, uh, tools is a law that essentially and effectively bans the possession of un serialized, uh, unfinished frames or receivers, as the DA was noting.
And that took effect in 2022, but at the same time, now what we've seen, uh, because individuals who are looking to manufacture their [00:26:00] own firearms, make these ghost guns or personally made firearms, PMFs, They're taking to 3D printing to make those components that they can no longer buy on the internet.
And that's why in the last two years, we've seen a drastic increase in the number of 3D printed firearm seizures that we've had, not only in Queens, but citywide. whereas last year in all of 2023, uh, citywide, there were 41 3D printed firearms recovered. Thus far, as of April 19th, which is already two or three weeks ago, we already had 57.
So that's a thousand percent increase year to date, and tracking 3D printed guns wasn't even something we did two or three years ago. And now it makes up, as of this year, about 40 percent of all the ghost guns we're recovering are 3D printed firearms. So we're now seeing the same upward trend that we saw for ghost guns in general back in 2019, 2020, and 2021.
Today we're seeing the same upward trend. for 3D printed firearms.
Melinda Katz: you know, the, [00:27:00] the, the creation of these guns. are in and of themselves a very dangerous thing. But at the end of the day, they also, there is a market for them. So, if I am addicted to drugs, or I have a narcotics issue, or I sell narcotics but I'm not making enough money, there is a market for firearms.
I can just create a firearm and sell it. Um, so it's not only the fact that you're creating the firearms and they themselves are dangerous, and they themselves can be used in crimes, and they themselves can be used in assaults or murders, they also are very marketable. And the person that buys those firearms knows they can't be traced. And that's the most dangerous part about it. I buy a 3D gun that's never been used, even if, arguably, yes, never been used. I know it's not traceable. And that's one of the most dangerous things for the community and also for law enforcement.
Marc Beckman: I see that and I understand [00:28:00] that um, your, your office is really the lead office by far throughout all of New York City, but I wonder also uh, given the fact that you see certain markets like China and Brazil where they're really producing parts and selling them over, over the internet. It's really easy to buy these parts in foreign markets.
It seems like they're not regulated at all. What is it that the Queens DA office or Queens in general is doing to cooperate, you know, not just within the country domestically, but internationally too?
Melinda Katz: Interestingly enough, and we can track some of that too, but we've also stopped guns from going, uh, internationally. Trinidad is one example, but there are other examples as well. So it's not about only the market, about buying the pieces from the other countries, it's also not Being able to supply the other countries, uh, and that's been working out as well.
Um, you know, Shanon has a whole team of analysts and experts that track these [00:29:00] internationally and track them from all over the world. Um, and that's an important part of it. You know, point is that we want to make sure we stop them from coming in also. We also want to make sure we stop them from going out.
Marc Beckman: How much more dangerous do you think New York City is, um, now with the advent of ghost guns and three, 3d printed guns?
Melinda Katz: I think we're trying to stay on top of it. I think, you know, like technology, once one thing ends, another thing starts. Um, I think, I think the untraceability of these weapons is the, is the dangerous thing. You know, we count on the fact that guns have ballistics. We count on the fact that guns are able to be traced.
A police officer that is out there protecting us. You know, we have to count on the fact that if they are injured, that we have a way of finding the weapon that injured them. With 3D, that's not always possible at all, if, if, if it's possible at all. Um, and especially with ghost guns as well, it's just not, not possible to, to trace it that way.
Doesn't mean we can't trace it other [00:30:00] ways, but just from the pure ballistics, it makes it very difficult to trace.
Shanon LaCorte: you're absolutely right, D. A. Um, you know, the traceability both, um, at the um, um, firearm manufacturer stage because we don't have a serial number. So if we don't have a serial number when a firearm is recovered, we can't go back to where the firearm was born, who manufactured it, how many other firearms were purchased along with that one at a federal firearms licensee out of state and then trafficked up to New York.
Uh, we don't have any of that information when we recover a ghost gun or a 3D printed firearm. Similarly, as the DA noted, when it comes to ballistics, ghost guns, including 3D printed guns, it's much easier to swap out the components and trick the ballistics. Uh, results that we get. And ultimately, there is 3D printed ammunition, as the DA noted, being developed now.
In the next two, three, five years, uh, that will become problematic for the traceability of ballistics the way the DA noted. And science and law has to catch up, [00:31:00] because there needs to be scientific methodologies that will stand up in court. in order to investigate and prosecute cases based on those ballistic results.
So, um, you know, we need to do what we can and we are doing that and working with our law enforcement partners, our federal partners, uh, legislatures, uh, et cetera to, um, develop those methodologies to investigate, interdict, and ultimately fully prosecute those cases.
Marc Beckman: it seems like we're at a tipping point just from understanding where their technology is, how easy it is and affordable and time efficient it is to create a ghost gun. coupled with the fact that. most people that use guns in crimes in New York City, are not regi they're not registered guns, if I understand correctly from what the DA said earlier.
It seems like we're at this tipping point, like, do you predict that ghost guns and 3D printed guns are going to be ubiquitous, and but for The industry [00:32:00] statistics that I shared earlier with regards to I think what I called Firearms Inc. or Guns Inc. Ghost guns are the future and will totally disrupt and replace, traditional iron guns, those legacy businesses.
Shanon LaCorte: Yeah, I mean, I think part of understanding where we're going with ghost guns and 3D printed guns is to look at, you know, where we've come from. Um, look, based on the statistics you said, obviously the overwhelming majority of firearms in this country are from legacy producers. You're Glock, Sig Sauer, Colt, etc.
But what's happening now is individuals are taking those designs And putting their own spin on it. They're sort of riffing in these online communities to take traditional models and add all kinds of customizations to them. You know, think of it like buying a locked iPhone, you know, part of the complaint of, of Apple and the iPhone is that, you know, you can't, you can't do add ons, you can't unlock the phone, crack it and sort of make it your own.
And people have to find workarounds. People have those same [00:33:00] complaints when it comes to firearms. So there are, there have been some things in the commercially manufactured market allowing people to customize firearms to make them modular, um, in the traditional sense. But now individuals around the country, including in locations where it's legal, um, you know, not everyone in the country, you know, federally, it's legal to build your own un serialized firearm.
Once it moves in interstate commerce, uh, that's when, uh, it becomes illegal. In New York State, however, you can't own a firearm unless it's, uh, registered, licensed, and serialized. So, um, individuals are now, whether it's in New York State or otherwise, Gathering in these online communities and sharing these designs freely and openly and they're doing things again Part of it isn't necessarily even for nefarious purposes.
They're doing it. Like I said legally just to have fun with this culture with this market, to be able to say that they built something themselves and I fired it and it worked [00:34:00] and I did it in my home with a 300 3D printer and 50 in PLA filament and, you know, uh, a couple of downloaded files from the internet.
They're impressed by it. There are shooting competitions that are design competitions. I don't have a crystal ball, I will say, since, uh, we're coming up on the three year anniversary next week of D. A. Katz, uh, hiring me in this office and starting the Crime Strategies and Intelligence Bureau. Um, three years ago when we started doing these cases, I was out there lecturing to law enforcement, the D.
A. has been on the press and in the communities saying, this is the future. The future is now. Ghost guns will become more ubiquitous. This was at a time when they were barely on law enforcement's radar. And what we've seen in the last three, four years in New York City and nationally is that as it relates to crime guns, ghost guns are now making larger and larger percentages of the firearms that we're [00:35:00] recovering.
Therefore, they're larger and larger percentages of the firearms that are out there in the market. So, you know, there is no official lobby for the 3D printed firearm movement the way that, you know, the NRA exists and there are gun manufacturers that have their own lobbyists. But my understanding is that some of these traditional manufacturers are getting concerned about this online movement because it is cutting into their market.
Marc Beckman: Well, there might not be traditional lobbyists, but there are certainly people out there that believe they are, um, true activists as it relates to. 3D printed guns and gun rights. And one that comes to mind is Cody Wilson from Defense Distributed. do you want to take a second and tell our audience who Cody Wilson is and, ideologically what he believes in?
Shanon LaCorte: So, so Cody Wilson is sort of one of the, uh, Uh, forerunners and really the face of the personally manufactured firearm movement, which [00:36:00] includes obviously ghost guns, but really, he's the, the grandfather of, um, the 3D printed firearm. I say grandfather, he's a, he's a younger man, um, but in 2013, he's the one that invented the first functioning 3D printed firearm in this country.
and that was called The Liberator. And you asked me to explain sort of what his, philosophy is. He's very open and public about, you know, what he believes in. He really believes that, um, it is a fundamental human right to have firearms, as many people in this country do believe. Uh, and that he will give you the tools Uh, from items that are not guns and are not gun parts in order to manufacture them into guns and gun parts.
So he has sort of two major, uh, uh, streams of that. One is, uh, Defcad, uh, underneath Defense Distributed, which essentially is the platform that hosts. 3D printed, uh, weaponry files freely online. And that was [00:37:00] born out of this firearm in 2013, the Liberator. And what's interesting about the Liberator is a couple of things, uh, designed by Cody Wilson, uh, in 2013.
Uh, this was a open, openly sourced, uh, you know, put out on the internet, uh, design file. for a single shot firearm. And the Liberator, actually, the 3D printed Liberator, was named after a World War II American made French resistance gun. So essentially, the American government in World War II made this gun called the Liberator, a single shot, mostly made out of aluminum, uh, firearm.
It was relatively cheap, uh, relatively easy to produce. And what's the point of a single shot firearm when it comes to providing it to resistance fighters? Well, the U. S. provided the Liberator, the original, to French resistance fighters in order to approach, you know, in a stealth manner, uh, German soldiers that were occupying France, assassinate them, and take their firearms.
[00:38:00] So, um, now, fast forward to 2013, Cody Wilson designs this single shot firearm and calls it the Liberator. at the time, the firearm was not very effective. Uh, it did tend to explode, uh, after one or two shots, the frame would crack. It was mostly 3D printed, I think it was about 99 percent 3D printed, uh, the file was downloaded about 100, 000 times in just a couple of days.
The defense department shut it down. Many years of litigation later, now those files are openly hosted online and available to anybody, you know, due to free speech issues and ultimate settlements with the federal government. So, you know, that firearm did work, the Liberator, but here we are, you know, 10 11 years later, and what You know, you needed to build that firearm back then was a 3D printer that cost you 2, 500.
Uh, now you can [00:39:00] build something that's multi shock capable, semi automatic or even fully automatic, which means one pull of the trigger and ammunition will come out of that gun and it will shoot until you let go of the trigger or run out of ammunition. all those types of firearms are able to be built utilizing a 3D printer, open source files.
Uh, and some of these 3D printers that we've recovered and, and seen individuals using cost 250, 300. So um, just in 10 years, we've gone from a single shot exploding firearm to things that are, you know, nearly indistinguishable from commercially manufactured firearms.
Marc Beckman: So, it's kind of interesting, you just added in another layer of complexity with regards to law enforcement, and that's freedom of speech, right? Everybody goes directly to the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms, but what you just talked about, if I understand correctly, is Um, Cody Wilson, and I would imagine other entities throughout the world now, publishing on the internet, uh, instructions and how to [00:40:00] use guides, how to assemble guides for ghost guns, for 3D printed guns.
So it seems to me that this is just another layer of complexity for, uh, the Queens County DA in New York City in regards to regulating and restricting the use of firearms.
Shanon LaCorte: Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's a, you know, it's a much. More complicated landscape now, because traditionally when you talk about a firearms investigation, whether we're reacting to a crime, like a homicide where a firearm is recovered or ballistics are recovered, we have a serial number, we can trace it back to who it originated with.
Now with 3D printed guns, there really is no traceability in that sense, both as it relates to You know, the origination of the gun, the origination of the file that it was designed from, uh, the origination of the material that was used to build it. So, you know, our efforts, which have been successful in combating gun violence in general, but more [00:41:00] specifically, uh, ghost guns and 3D printed firearms, uh, we're taking a different and novel approach.
And, uh, you know, what we're advocating for is a change in the law as it relates to not necessarily possessing the files, but. Um, taking the files and then taking that additional step to produce the, to manufacture the illegal firearm. But, you know, it's unlikely that we'd advocate to wipe out those files from someone's possession and completely get rid of them because So, really what we're looking for are the individuals that are taking those ideas, taking those files, and putting pen to paper.
Or, in this case, putting PLA filament into their printer and making the firearm. So once they start producing the firearm and once they've completed it, they're going to That's when they cross into our realm. That's when the Queens County District Attorney's Office takes action, uh, and will interdict and [00:42:00] try to recover those firearms and apprehend those individuals along
Marc Beckman: So we, we, we really haven't spoke about the individuals much like their demographic profile. You kind of hinted towards like the hobbyist and in my mind I'm thinking about, you know, when I was growing up there was the guy down the block that was like tinkering with his car and maybe he was never ever going to bring that car out onto the road, but he was creating his own car.
Um, now it seems like with the advent of technology and the ability to access, uh, the directions on how to build these guns and, and also the fact that 3D printers are relatively inexpensive, um, what happens with regards to the age profile here? Who are these people that are, um, creating the guns at home?
Shanon LaCorte: Yeah, it's actually incredibly interesting. Um, you know, Queens is the world's borough. We have, uh, you know, the largest and most diverse population on the planet. Uh, and because [00:43:00] we've done So many investigations successfully. We've done about 40, uh, successful takedowns in this space, uh, in the last less than two, uh, less than three years.
we really have an incredible data set of who these individuals are. The single most troubling Uh, statistic or trend that I'm noting is when we started doing this, we found that individuals who were purchasing the kit guns in the mail, as the DA noted, and dabbling in 2021 with 3D printing, you know, the types of individuals then We did have some individuals who were firearms traffickers or outlaw motorcycle gangs or other local violent street gangs.
We did have individuals that were building to sell. Uh, and we saw in 2021 individuals printing, uh, 3D printing high capacity magazines, which in New York State that holds more than 10 rounds of ammunition and is illegal. We saw people 3D printing, uh, Glock switches, which is a little piece of plastic you put on a semi [00:44:00] automatic firearm, which makes it fully automatic.
But we hadn't yet seen fully people 3D printing out firearms. What we started to notice once the ban took effect and sort of in a post pandemic world where people did take up 3D printing generally as a hobby, um, but 3D printing as it relates to firearms as well, we've now seen in the last, you Really, mostly in the last, you know, six to 18 months, more and more individuals who started as 3D printers, 3D printing hobbyists, making trinkets and tinkering and toys for their kids, uh, you know, uh, widgets and those kinds of things for themselves, all kinds of things that are available online to use a 3D printer.
And then they moved into 3D printing firearms. Just because it's something else they can 3D print and they want to know if it's something they can build and they spend time on that online community and now the information has sort of fused in there. And we have the benefit in, in this office and in law enforcement in general, uh, you know, [00:45:00] to sit down with some of our defendants once our, you know, once we take a case down and we have a subject and now we've arrested them.
Uh, the police, the law enforcement end, will do what's called a debrief and ask them some questions. But a lot of times, post arrest, we'll do what's called a proffer. And analysts and investigators and attorneys, uh, including myself, from my office, will sit down with these, uh, defendants and talk to them About what they were doing with their lawyer present, um, and a lot of times it's so we can gather intelligence and information and understand what it was they're doing and further and suplee negotiations and things of that nature.
So we're hearing more and more from individuals that they just sort of happened upon files and videos on YouTube and thought to themselves, hey, I pretty much mastered 3D printing, which is, you know, as much art as it is science in some cases, and now I'd like to know if I can 3D print a gun. And they did.
Uh, and it, and it worked, and it was successful. in terms of the overall demographic, what that means for [00:46:00] us is we've seen individuals as young as 13 and 14 that are 3D printing and also purchasing firearm components. Um, you know, those cases are, are, are tricky, and, and they can oftentimes end up in family court.
But we've, you know, routinely seen individuals who are 16, 17, 18 year old, uh, you know, individuals who are, uh, 3D printers, uh, that get into firearms as a result, or even vice versa, that are into firearms and start 3D printing as a means to an end. And we've had, you know, subjects and defendants all the way up to their mid and late 50s who are professionals.
We've had students on the young end, we've had, you know, white collar professionals with advanced degrees on the other end, uh, city workers, um, family people with small children at home, wives, uh, you know, kids, professional jobs, um, you know, all of that. So they're really the one consistent amongst Our subjects is that there [00:47:00] really is no consistency other than they are incredibly proficient at designing and printing and manufacturing their own firearm.
Marc Beckman: Shanon, are you seeing 3D printed guns from teenagers being sold or traded for people to use them as weapons, for people to use them in bad ways?
Shanon LaCorte: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you know, everybody in that cross section, it's not every single case, as you indicated before, there are some individuals who say that they're just a hobbyist and they never intended to use the firearm and district attorney Katz has made clear and we've made clear that doesn't really matter.
We're charging them with possessing the arsenal of firearms that they had in their house. And when I say arsenal, we've, we've entered some homes, apartments, uh, you know, one bedroom apartments, we've entered, you know, split family homes, multi multi family dwellings, and found 10, 15, 20, uh, just, uh, two or three weeks ago.
Um, in, in Rockaway Beach, very residential neighborhood, in a, [00:48:00] two family home, in one of those residences, we recovered 30 firearms. so, you know, we are absolutely seeing lots and lots of, of firepower in these homes, so when someone says they're a hobbyist Well, our response is, we're not charging you, you know, you're not, you're not, the law isn't saying that you intended to use these firearms.
We're not charging you with the use of the firearms. We're charging you with the manufacture and possession of them under the New York State Penal Law. And then our other sort of response is, well, you know, you say you're a hobbyist, but you But then, why did you have to buy 5,000 rounds of ammunition, which we recovered along with your 30 firearms?
Why did you manufacture a silencer, which is affixed to a gun and muffles the sound of gunfire so that it becomes more stealth and not give away your position when it's being shot? We're also recovering commercially manufactured firearms, traditional iron pipeline firearms, along with the illegal ones, uh, the illegally manufactured 3D printed firearms, along with myriad other [00:49:00] accessories and modifications that make these firearms, which are already deadly, that much more lethal, including scopes and sights, body armor, uh, high capacity magazines, conversion devices to turn them from semi automatic to fully automatic.
So, you know, we are seeing individuals who are, you know, portraying themselves as just a hobbyist, but we've also seen far too many cases where just the mere presence of a firearm and ammunition in a home can turn deadly in an instant. So that's why the DA takes so seriously removing these illegal firearms from these homes.
But we've also come across a number of individuals in that same time who do build to sell. And that includes young people as well. And a lot of times we do a very complete and thorough investigation of our subjects before we takedown before we execute a search warrant and recover those firearms. And our analysts, investigators, our attorneys in this [00:50:00] office are really blazing the trail in terms of how to do these investigations.
And obviously we're working with our NYPD partners and bringing all their expertise to bear as well. But we also are learning a lot from these investigations post arrest because we will also seize electronic devices. And we will, uh, you know, write additional search warrants to recover the data and information that's contained within those electronic devices, laptops, external hard drives, thumb drives, SD cards that are in the 3D printers, cell phones.
So we're trying to learn a lot more about our subject, and in a lot of cases, we've found that when we expect to enter a home. Uh, with a search warrant after, you know, due process and, you know, it's, it's authorized by a judge. Um, and all of our subpoena work and all the investigative work is all, you know, done with legal process.
Uh, but once we enter that home, uh, you know, we might in certain cases based on our investigation expect to find 15 or 20 completed firearms. [00:51:00] And when we find two, uh, Well, that raises some alarm bells and we say to ourselves, well, what happened to the other dozen firearms or so? And that's when we spring into additional action and start evaluating potentially for a historical trafficking case.
And we've done a couple of those cases successfully. We have some with pending charges, uh, now as well in terms of manufacturing firearms and selling them both in New York City and abroad, um, so we're absolutely seeing both ends of the spectrum in terms of, in terms of, uh, socioeconomic. Uh, demographics, age, um, and as well as the intended use of the firearms that were being manufactured.
Marc Beckman: So in your opinion, does New York City then have the ability or the utility to provide surveillance of 3D printed guns and 3D printed weapons as they become increasingly ubiquitous?
Shanon LaCorte: So, uh, you know, I think surveillance itself is a very amorphous term. Um, again, [00:52:00] what we're doing in the Queen's DA's office has, uh, you know, we've been out there, the DA's been very public about it, um, and DA Katz is incredibly supportive of, Getting our message and our technique out there in the law enforcement community.
So we have been out to other agencies all across the state and country, and our model is being replicated in other jurisdictions with success. So, you know, part of our model includes surveillance, you know, a lot of traditional investigative techniques that have been used by law enforcement for years.
Subpoenas, physical surveillance, uh, electronic and remote surveillance, tapping into human intelligence, uh, all of these sorts of things, but we've added a layer of data science on top of it because we're collecting as much data as possible out there from, from numerous sources in order to identify and track the individuals that are manufacturing these firearms.
And at the same time, the federal government, and via the ATF, as well as the NYPD's Ghost Gun Unit, which is an integral [00:53:00] partner, you know, to this whole operation, they are also doing their own research. And they are staying ahead of the curve in terms of the trends, the designs, the models that are out there, so we can formulate new ways.
to identify the individuals that are trafficking and manufacturing these firearms illegally.
Marc Beckman: Even in the face of new communication technologies, like encrypted technologies, correct?
Shanon LaCorte: Absolutely, I mean, you know, end to end encryption and, uh, you know, those types of anonymous web browsing, telecommunications, have made a lot of difficulty for law enforcement officers in many areas in what we do in both traditional law enforcement and in prosecution. But We find ways to adapt, you know, we, we have specialized units in our law enforcement agencies.
We have the added benefit in New York City of working with the NYPD, a gigantic, uh, [00:54:00] very robust law enforcement agency with a lot of resources at its disposal, but we also have our own, uh, teams within the office itself. So, we are constantly training. We are constantly looking at tools that we can acquire for the office and train on in order to stay ahead of the curve there.
And at the end of the day, while end to end encrypted email, communications, web browsing, things of that nature, even cryptocurrency, sort of obfuscate, uh, and, and obscure the, the evidence trail of our subjects and our defendants. We, we still find those vulnerabilities of where they really can't stay completely undetectable.
And that's where we really have pursued this model in Queens. That's really where we've excelled in staying one step ahead of what our adversary is up to. And we have to do that. You know, we have found in some of these cases that post arrest. Some of our subjects [00:55:00] are following what the DA's office is doing on social media.
They're well aware in the community, as to what our efforts have been, which in some cases is what we want because it acts as a deterrent. And,
Marc Beckman: subjects are tracking you,
Shanon LaCorte: yes, in some cases, I mean, tracking us to the extent that they're following what we're putting out publicly, um, you know, they're not, they're not in our office, they don't have access to our files and those kinds of things.
But when we announce a takedown, when we announce an arrest, it goes around the community. You know, they, they, you know, and we're aware of that because we're in turn following that as well. And we see that they're discussing what's happening. And there's this sort of groundswell of conversation happening around what's happening in Queens.
And we've noted that some of our particular subjects have either directly told us, or we've seen from their. communications that they are saying, Hey, look at what, look at what Melinda Katz did yesterday. Look at what the Queens DA is up to. You know, they're really coming after ghost guns. So it's having a positive effect in some way, because some of these individuals now know.
I [00:56:00] can't do this in Queens, I shouldn't do it in New York City, let me take it elsewhere. And we have investigated some subjects who have said, you know what, I moved all my stuff out of state, it's no longer here, or I was going to take this up and now I stopped. So it is having an impact. A deterrence effect as well.
But obviously it also keeps in mind for us that we have to be careful about what we say and what we put out there so that we don't tip our hand as to what we're doing. And individuals like Cody Wilson, uh, he's not the only one that, you know, but he's one of the most prolific. He's been out there saying that they track on their websites who is following and who is visiting, you know, to, to observe the, the, the 3D printed files, to observe that information.
And he's noted in the past that he's seen ATF. gov and other law enforcement agencies visiting their websites. So there's, there's a level of counter surveillance going on as well, and kind of a game of cat and mouse. But Cody Wilson is just one of many, many players in the space that are both open and [00:57:00] notorious and those who sort of decide to remain clandestine.
Marc Beckman: but it seems like NYPD is really going to have to stay ahead of the curve here. If we just break down in like, in just layman terms, um, how quick, like, how quick can an individual, um, create a 3D printing? Like, what's the time on it? And then, um, what's the cost of something like that?
Shanon LaCorte: Yeah. So, um, that's a very fair question. Uh, you know, when it came to traditional, we now call traditional ghost guns, I mean, you know, the kit guns, and that's only something from, you know, four or five years ago. If someone bought the component parts in the mail, everything, didn't, didn't 3D print the thing and had it shipped to them.
With some proficiency and some expertise, they're assembling that firearm in as little as 13 minutes. I'm sorry, 30 minutes. Uh, we've seen some real professionals do it in, you know, 12, 13, 15 minutes.
Marc Beckman: that's after they have all of the pieces.
Shanon LaCorte: After they have all the pieces and after they, they become proficient [00:58:00] at it. With 3D printing, it still takes you time to manufacture those parts.
And anyone with a 3D printer knows things might go wrong. Uh, the bed might not be leveled. Your temperature might be off. You know, the internal regulations of the 3D printer might be off. So you may have to reprint the part. Some of the parts, uh, though, whereas a few years ago, the lower receiver, one of the main major components of the firearm, you know, it took 13 hours to 3D print.
Now with higher end technology, uh, more efficient and effective 3D printers, they can be done in four or five hours. Um, and your other components will take even less time to manufacture as well. But again, there are a number of different types of polymer, uh, and PLA, polylytic acid filament out there. Uh, carbon fiber, PLA Plus and PLA Pro.
These are getting even more durable. Uh, and can withstand the pressure that [00:59:00] is needed in order to make a firearm not only functioning but reusable. And a lot of these firearms have had thousands and thousands of rounds cycled through them without any problems. So, you know, once you print all of the components, which can take in some cases up to a couple of days, uh, especially if you're 3D printing a lot of accessories.
We have executed search warrants where our investigators, our, uh, you know, the staff in our office and our NYPD partners have entered the premises with our search warrant and the 3D printer is actively printing a gun component when we enter and execute our search warrant. We've had them printing, a pretty unique new design called the Mac Daddy, or the Mac and Cheese, is a take on a Mac 10 firearm, and that was being printed, and we've also made entry in someone was printing a large capacity ammunition feeding device, a high capacity magazine that held 32 rounds, and we kind of have to sit there and wait for the print to finish in order to charge that crime.
Otherwise, if it's not done [01:00:00] yet, it's just an attempt. So we've had these cases where we kind of have to sit around and sit on the computer and sit on the 3D printer for four or five hours and wait for it to finish printing so
Marc Beckman: And what's the cost, Shanon? Like if somebody is going to buy a 3D printer and build a ghost gun in, you know, in their home, in the privacy of their home, what is something like that cost? And then can you compare that to, uh, an iron, a more traditional gun, please?
Shanon LaCorte: Sure. Um, so it depends on the type of firearm you're building, but we have recovered many, many very functioning operable 3D printed firearms made on 3D printers that cost anywhere from 250 to 300. And that's kind of the standard. Once you start getting into things like temperature control, uh, you know, auto leveling, all these additional bells and whistles, 3D printers can get up into the 2, 500, 3, 000 range, but then they become far easier to use, far more effective, far more efficient.
So, um, [01:01:00] once you have the printer, the files themselves in a lot of places are free online. Or maybe you have to purchase them or have a subscription, which isn't really how it's supposed to be, uh, at the federal government level, but again, it's, you know, these files are out there. So people are buying the files, there are companies that are selling the files, uh, the CAD files, the 3D printed firearms, along with any additional mechanisms that you can't print, or it's preferable if you didn't print.
Screws, bolts, springs, some other commercially manufactured firearm parts. So again, because the lower receiver has been banned in New York state and other places, there are a lot of companies that market, uh, on their websites, here is everything you need to build a gun, but the lower receiver, but you purchase our package and here's the file along with it.
And we can even sell you a 3D printer as well. So you've got some. Operable [01:02:00] 3D printed guns, there's one called the Harlet, it's a 22, long rifle caliber pistol, it's like a Derringer, it can fit in the palm of your hand, and it's also single shot capable, but that's 95 percent 3D printed and it costs as little as 20 to put together, um, 20.
Um, if you're talking about your, More sort of ubiquitous standard firearm, like a Glock semi automatic handgun, like a Glock 19 or 23 or something like that. Those firearms tend to cost between four and 600. You can effectively cut that cost in half by 3D printing your lower receiver and make just as good of a firearm.
And in some cases there are sales, there are deals, people buying in bulk, you can get it down to 200 to make your own, you know. standard, you know, Glock 19 style semi automatic pistol.
Marc Beckman: So, so that's just wild to me. It's incredible. And honestly, I [01:03:00] think we always see technology and youth culture come together. there's no doubt in my mind, I see the vision, how, um, young millennials, Gen Z, even Gen Alpha will be using 3D printed guns in the future. notwithstanding the huge budget.
business that is currently in place with the legacy firearm industry, everything is pointing in this direction. There's no reason to think differently as it relates to time and efficiencies, um, costs, et cetera. But as you know, Shanon, like, Culture influences, um, you know, our, our society. American culture influences our society in so many ways for good and for bad.
And I remember growing up, you know, bands like NWA, Public Enemy, these types of bands, they would, in many ways, um, Uh, embrace, guns and, and, uh, gangster type of, of, um, personality and whatnot. Are you starting to see ghost guns enter the fabric of music and [01:04:00] art? Are you starting to see the concept of 3D printing seep into the fabric of culture in America?
Shanon LaCorte: Oh, absolutely. And you're right on point. You know, we've seen, uh, as it relates to pop culture, certain types of firearms over the years being referenced in relatively mainstream pop culture, uh, in hip hop, R& B music, rap lyrics, uh, film, TV, uh, and then these weapons Either as a result, you know, causally, it's, it's, it's sort of give and take.
It's a chicken and the egg, but, um, you know, as we see a rise of particular firearms as crime guns, especially, but also in the legal purchase of them, uh, from commercial manufacturers over the years, the MAC 10, TEC 9, Desert Eagle, you know, the Draco, these are all different types of firearms referenced by, you know, bands like Wu Tang Clan, Ludacris and others.
In the last few years, we have absolutely seen a similar corollary in pop culture, particularly in music. We have artists like Drake, Tekashi [01:05:00] 6ix9ine, Meek Mill, you know, singing about loopholes in the law, singing about ghost guns, singing about things like a glock switch, which again, a glock switch or an auto sear is a little component that takes a semi automatic firearm and makes it fully automatic.
So that is out there and relatively. Mainstream pop culture, and we're starting to see it in film and TV as well. And I haven't quite yet seen, although I need to go back and do a little research here as well, I haven't really seen the mention of 3D printed firearms specifically yet, but I guarantee that's coming.
Marc Beckman: For sure.
Shanon LaCorte: when we first started out talking about these kinds of cases, we, talking about ghost guns, we were saying, you know, to other law enforcement agencies, you're going to see an uptick in, in ghost gun recoveries citywide, statewide, and nationally. And that was back in 2021 and even before. And, and in the last, you know, year or two, we've been saying that with respect to 3D printed firearms, and that's exactly what we're seeing now.
We're at that tipping [01:06:00] point now, where we're seeing the explosion of, uh, 3D printed firearms, uh, recovered in New York City.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, I, I know that, um, you know, looking backwards, 2021 really stand, created a demarcation, I think in the world of New York City, uh, firearm enforcement as it relates to the growth of 3D printed guns and ghost guns, but forward looking, where do you, when do you anticipate, um, ghost guns and 3D printed guns becoming more prevalent on the streets of New York City than non ghost guns, non painted guns?
3D printed guns. How, like, if you were going to give a time horizon, when would you say, um, we'll see more 3D printed guns on the streets? Do you think it'll be three years, five years? Are we looking at 12 months? What do you think?
Shanon LaCorte: I mean, I think we're seeing it now, uh, it does tend to ebb and flow a little bit. I think as you see more regulation in the commercially manufactured firearm space and even [01:07:00] in the traditional, again, quote unquote, uh, ghost gun or kick gun in the mail space, and there's a case about to go up to the Supreme Court next term in October on that very issue, that doesn't address 3D printing.
So, um, I think as we, we start regulating more what people can physically purchase, we're going to see the increase of, and we're already seeing that, an increase of what people can print and manufacture themselves at home. You know, not only 3D printing firearms, but again, to go back to Defense Distributed, they have a tool called the Ghost Gunner.
This is a CNC, or Computer Numeric Controlled Milling Machine, where you're not 3D printing, but it's essentially your own mini, um, gunsmithing in a box. Uh, you can buy a block of polymer, aluminum, or even steel. And mill spec a firearm to whatever specifications that you want in the comfort [01:08:00] of your own home.
So it's another different method to do it. That isn't even 3d printing, it's milling and machining yourself at home. That's a more expensive tool, but we've seen and recovered those as well. So every time we have some sort of. step forward in legislation and in law enforcement technique, the gun community, legal or otherwise, comes up with a new product, a new design or a new workaround.
So to directly answer your question, I think we're in that inflection point now. I think it's going to be more years, uh, you know, I think more than five or 10 before there's a complete reversal before personally manufactured firearms as a whole outweigh commercially manufactured firearms, because there's still just so many commercially manufactured firearms out there.
But I think it's going to depend market to market, because as we get more effective, at interdicting individuals that are purchasing guns out of state and bringing them to New York. And as that [01:09:00] particular criminal element starts understanding, I don't have to go out of state and get a straw purchaser and now be subject to federal charges.
I don't have to worry about a back alley transaction where I might get robbed. or purchase a gun from an undercover law enforcement agency. Uh, I can just print it and make it myself at home or find someone to be my gun manufacturer at home. So that's definitely, we're in it right now and I think we're going to continue the upswing in the next few years.
And like we saw with the ban of lower receivers, we saw a little dip in ghost gun recoveries. Uh, in 2022, um, but we're, we're right back up again thanks to 3D printing. So I think the next 5 10 years are going to be crucial here and we're going to continue to see a rise of these firearms, uh, out there on the street recovered as crime guns.
Marc Beckman: Shanon, are most gun parts now purchased digitally on, on, in marketplaces like Amazon and eBay, or is it still brick and mortar purchases?
Shanon LaCorte: I, I think people will purchase, you know, firearm components wherever they can find them. [01:10:00] Um, a lot of the e marketplaces have restrictions on what can be sold. The gun manufacturers are just that. They're gun manufacturers in the business of selling those parts, although there are some restrictions in certain states.
Um, but we see them purchased anywhere and everywhere. There are hundreds and thousands of places online to buy them. People can go to gun shows. They can go to federally licensed firearms dealers and buy the component parts. So, um, but, but these days, there are certain types of 3D printed firearms that you can manufacture that are 100 percent 3D printed, and you can print every single component you need in there down to a spring, a bolt, um, a barrel, everything.
Marc Beckman: And the bullet,
Shanon LaCorte: And, and the bullet. I mean, that's, that's again the future. Uh, that's not that ubiquitous yet at all. That's still in a sort of beta testing area out there online, but we're headed in that direction. There's plenty of DIY. Ammunition making out there as well.
Marc Beckman: Shanon, you've given me a [01:11:00] tremendous amount of time today. I really appreciate it. Thank you for all of your very important insight. As you may be aware, we have a tradition of ending some future day. Um, I ask all of my guests to complete a sentence, uh, for me, which is forward looking, and I'm hoping that you're willing to, uh, participate.
Shanon LaCorte: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think what your listeners should take away is, yes, it's an emerging space with technology, artificial intelligence, uh, scientific developments, like it is in so many walks of our life and society today. The gun manufacturer space is no different. And, unfortunately, the individuals you, seeking to use.
Firearms illegally is also no different. However, not only is the Queen's District Attorney's office dedicated to keeping our seat streets and our, our residents safe, but we're working with countless other law enforcement agencies to do the same and stay ahead of the curve. So that we can stop [01:12:00] the problem before it gets out of control.
We've identified the public safety threat before most other people have even begun talking about it. And now we're already doing something about it and sharing it with anyone and everyone that will listen, particularly in the law enforcement space, so that we can keep our streets safe.
Marc Beckman: Awesome. Shanon. Let me start by saying thank you, um, but finish this sentence. You ready? in some future day, the Crime Strategies and Intelligence Bureau will evolve to be
Shanon LaCorte: The national model for how law enforcement agencies implement the intelligence driven model of prosecution.
Marc Beckman: amazing. Congratulations with all of your work and your vision. I certainly appreciate it as a New Yorker. Um, thanks for joining me on some future day.
Melinda Katz: I thank you for, uh, focusing on this topic. It's extremely important for people to understand that this is a new [01:13:00] technology. It's a dangerous technology. Of course it has its good points like every technology. 3D printers are not only used to create guns, um, but they can be.
And that's really the, uh, important part.
Shanon LaCorte: Thank you so much for having us, Mark. We appreciate it.
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