0:03
Between the chapters, a weekly podcast discussion focusing on a chapter of the book, 25 years of edtech, written by Martin Weller. here's your host, Laura Pasquini.
0:15
Welcome to Chapter 17 2010 connectivism. I'm still Laura hosting the pod between the chapters. And I'm joined today, thankfully with the guest, Tannis Morgan, welcome.
0:26
Hello. Hi. Glad to be here.
0:28
So here we are in 2010. What were you doing 2010
0:31
test. Oh, my goodness, 2010, I was actually changing jobs, I was in the middle of leaving one job to go to another higher ed institution that I was going to end up staying at for 10 years. So that was that was a big year for me actually.
0:46
It's funny. I started a Ph. D program that year. And I started probably I won't say based on this chapter, but based on some ideas, we'll talk about this chapter, I got really interested in networked communities and how people share and I was like, maybe I could study this and change the world says an early doctoral student. There is our connection to connectivism
1:12
in the where it is connectivism. I do remember connectivism it was front and center there for quite a few years. And yeah, certainly, sir. I was following it from the fringes, I guess I'll say.
1:26
Yeah, I heard about this. When I was back in Canada. So I was working before 2010. I was working in Canada, at University of Toronto, and I think it was the CC k oh eight, which is the connected vism MOOC Massive Open Online Course, that was talking about these concepts. And I guess we should define what connectivism is because it wasn't really a thing. It's defined loosely. Based on chapter four constructivism, you know, the problem based learning and resource based centered stuff. Instead of building around the content, you're building around more around the network of learning and learning experiences and connecting to knowledge through people. That's like my interpretation of it. What do you think? Yeah, so
2:15
Okay, so for me, when I read this chapter, I actually had to go back and read the connectivity, that constructivism one, because because so much of my relationship to connectivism is, is basically a reaction that well, this is just because I didn't really see the new and connectivism when it came out. And keep in mind in 2008 ish was when I was hearing about connectivism. So I have a first question from Martin, which is why 2010 I was, I feel like it was a bit earlier than that. But Martin might have a really good reason. But, but in 2008 ish. And even before that, there was some really good work with things like activity theory, which for me is what connectivism is like, it has a lot shares a lot of the things with activity theory, and specifically third generation activity theory. And there was some really interesting work being done with the application of that to computer mediated communication and digital learning and networked learning. And it's very well suited to connected learning and networked learning, which were also being rebranded at the time. In fact, I think way back in my blog archives, I think I even did a post on that somewhere. So So this was kind of a reflective point for me. And, and there were also other people talking about, you know, things like actor network theory, which also shares some of the elements of connectivism. So for me, this was really not a theory. And I think it was being positioned as a theory. It was like, well, maybe this is a pedagogy. But it for me, it wasn't a theory.
3:41
I'm glad that you brought up chapter four. And it's interesting. In my between the chapters conversation with Jesse Stommel, when we talk about, like, this is one of the few chapters that theory or framing of edtech is positioned in the book. And don't worry, just push back in that one. If you haven't heard that one, flip back to between the chapters for number four, we go on a little rant or two in that. But I think some of what you said I thought about after networked experiences, I thought of what is old is new. Can you use a practice came into like, I was like, don't we already have some of these things hanging around? Yeah, exactly. And so I think the definition that was defined, it was actually mid ot so 2005 I'll read it out is the integration of principles explored by chaos network, and complexity and self organization theories. Learning is a process that occurs within the nebulous environments of shifting core elements not entirely under the control of the individual. So it's not necessarily pedagogy, but a set of principles which come from other things. So we're always building off the backs of them. And this is what I'm learning.
4:48
Oh, yeah, for sure. And I think it was honestly like, I mean, if I say anything, but connectivism I think it was very much of its time, right. It was sort of this what we thought was maybe a maturity of edtech It needed something to explain what was going on. But at the same time, it was very immature in how it perceived the net as some sort of equitable place where participation wasn't problematic. And I think that was a big thing that, you know, the critics of connectivism were trying to surface is that, you know, it's not its participation is complicated, we already had winger, like we already had winger telling us that, you know, legitimate peripheral participation, he was problematizing participation to some degree, even though I think it was still fairly, you know, a celebratory. But, I mean, we had some of these things already percolating around and I think I personally was a critic of connectivism, I brought up some, you know, comments here and there in a few places. And, you know, but I think and there were others, too, like, there's some, I think Francis Bell even has an article that she co authored with somebody that I remember thinking, Oh, there it is, right. But they didn't really get the same kind of energy. As you know, the rah rah, that was around connectivism. At the time, which does that not sum up Ed Tech, in a nutshell, quite frankly, we're always doing this to ourselves. It's true, we have
6:11
a lot of cheerleading, and then we have some afterthought, after the thought, and
6:17
enthusiastic, and we are why we're enthusiastic people, the shiny
6:21
new thing, but we forget that they're built around these other things that exist, and the whole like, leading, I love the leading introduction from Martin, that's the amnesia, we're soon to forget. What's what what was, it's nothing new. It's the same same only polished up a little bit. And maybe it's because like, I just liked what resonates me was, like learning and knowledge. And I'm a big knowledge, kind of archivist sharing, supporter management of that and curating that. So I like that. And also, the other thing that I thought was appealing and maybe sexy about connectivism was the connection between disciplines, domains and fields, because we never really cross pollinate. And I still don't think connectivism did it. But to me, I thought that was rad. And I was like, sign me up. And that was 2010, where I was fresh eyed, looking at it this as looking at all the other theories that I soon realized, Oh, this is built off of when maybe that should have been challenged more. And I wish there was other voices the challenge at the time, because that's not something you write, I think here, but in 2010, about pushback on this.
7:30
Yeah. And I mean, I think that at the time, too, it's very, it's very hard to push back on things in edtech, when there's so much enthusiasm. I mean, I was part of a research group that pushed back on digital natives, for example. And I can tell you that sometimes that felt like being, you know, the oddball at a party, like it was, you know, you're like the a, you know, but this but that and, you know, so there was that, and at the same time, this was happening, actually, at the same time, we published that article around between 2008 and 2010. We're working on that research project. So it was like another thing to be like the wild, wild person at the party, right. And so I think like they're in on they're there. I definitely remember other people who were critiquing this. But yeah, who didn't really get a lot of airtime for because the enthusiasm was there. Of course, like, who wants to, you know, who wants to do that job, right?
8:24
Well, I don't think it's been a Debbie Downer. I think it's been critical and being aware of what voices aren't being amplified in our networks. And I think that's something to call out is, we often don't give room or space or hold space for other people that would have an opposing view, because they could be the minority. They could be literally representing and being underrepresented in the field. And we think there's a way of doing things, quote, unquote, but how do we know that? And what kind of philosophies are we falling? If we're going to follow constructivism? It's Wait, dude, it's telling us what to do. Versus we already know, there's other people that have been forming community and traditions for years, that we kind of CO opted took apart.
9:12
Yeah, yeah. And at the same same time, too, like we've all like, if we've been in a skill for a while, we've all been part of the enthusiasm too, right? Like, it's, it's sort of like, it's not you're not one or the other, you're kind of, you know, you're both right. And I think that's part of having a long trajectory in this field, as you can kind of look back on that and maybe reflect on that. And personally, I thought, I thought Martin did a really great job of this chapter, because it's really balanced. Like it was a very balanced retrospective on connectivism. And I really appreciated that it actually helped me, you know, understand some of the more some of the elements of connectivism that maybe I didn't really understand as well. And, yeah, so in that respect, I think like, if you're going to read a chapter on connectivism, this is a really good place to start.
9:58
I think yeah. To get a call out and it's funny, I went back to I have, I have a blog post called at the root of connectivism. I literally looked at think, thank God for blogs. And I think I was interested in this came out of work from Alec Karos. I was teaching a course on ecsi 831, where he was modeling that for his teachers and educators of social media and digital self and where they connect. And I liked the idea of it was sense making Wayfinding. But that's also a theory in its own as well, like, it's just all these other things. I'm like, oh, what I liked about the root of connectivism are the roots, these other theories of frameworks noted. So I just read back this blog post, and it was Yeah, there we go. October 7 2009. reflecting on what we talked around, where connections come from, what are the implications of these connections? And what do they apply to a classroom and just Wendy Drexler his work on just connectivism in spaces and what they're learning from it. It wasn't necessarily connectivism, I think I was attracted to I was attracted to the people that were coming up with ideas and spitballing things and teasing apart these concepts, versus the overarching, I guess, connectivism space itself, or what it is it was the people in it, and that work itself? Yeah,
11:23
yeah. And I think my blog post was about there was there at the same time, there was some connected learning group that had started in California, with some pretty like big names in it. And it was the question mark, for me was How come these people aren't talking to the connectivism people and vice versa, because it was literally kind of that kind of. So I think that also said something about the time, like, the irony of that is where, you know, connectivism is about connecting the two groups, I've never connected.
11:53
The irony of it all, I think it's distributed knowledge is very distributed, and very far and remote from each other. And it's, it's things that we still cycle through today. Like, I wonder how many nodes of things that are happening in different pockets of kind of engagement and learning? What doesn't get shared? Because you're not part of x group. membership in this organization?
12:16
Yes. I just affinity groups, right. Maybe groups like it's it's exactly that. That's, that's, that's I totally agree. And I think that's one of the things that I found problematic with connectivism was this whole idea that this, like, the whole sort of system relies on this generous participation and, you know, tapping into the network kind of issue is if it's not unproblematic, right, so you throw in gender in there. So we already knew in this time, like, you know, 2000 to 2010, there were literally blog networks for women, because their, their blogs, were not showing up on blog roles. And there were conferences for blogging women. So like, that weren't necessarily mommy bloggers. So it was, I remember that quite distinctly. And it was like, well, we already have this problem with women's, you know, blogs not getting read or blog rolled. How is this? Like? How is how is this gonna equalize that in any sort of way, the participation part was already showing inequities. And there was already some really good research around that too, like the positioning and identity theory stuff, which is really you know, what that looks like digitally. And, you know, how people position themselves online, how they are positioned, you know, identity formations, and that sort of thing. So it was sort of like, how is this given all that, that we know how is this going to work?
13:47
Yeah,
13:47
it'd be it's just going to be a cloud. Oh, absolutely. It was right. He says, It's like being watching a party through a window. I thought, Oh, that's such a good. I'm glad he put that in there. Because I certainly feel like that, that that is the risk, right?
14:01
I wonder if that's the party that we should be watching because it doesn't even touch on other intersectionality of identities like Kimberly Crenshaw talks about too. I just think about the limited voice that was given maybe at that time, and, you know, I tried before, and it reminds me that not everyone else felt that they could come into that party. And it's kind of like, high school, at least in North America, from what I can tell. and Canada, us about the same. There's always like these stupid little cliques. And I really hated that. And I booked against it myself, because I wanted to play sports and sing in the musical and hang out with the punk kids and go to punk shows and also do nerdy chess things. So, for me, I struggled with the idea that this was an odd looking party. So thank you for bringing up that quote. But I didn't like that because I was like, What Why does it have to be that way? And how do we shape shifts, this kind of Growing networked space? And is it because it was a dominant voice or two? is this? Why I'm not sure?
15:06
Yeah, yeah, I think we're still trying to unpack all that, too. And I think we're so much better at being aware of that now, too. I think that's much more front and center. And I mean, one of the examples I keep coming back to this year, you know, related to, you know, what happens when you don't listen to the, the broader participation in your field is Susan Kosta glues paper that she did or presentation, it was paper, I don't know if it was both on, like the feminist critiques of distance education, and that basically, there was three decades of it, and it was completely ignored. So it's like, well, that's kind of significant, right? That they were, you know, these feminist critiques of distance education, which super useful right now, in a pandemic, by the way. And you know, what, so so I reflect on that in terms of edtech, which obviously intersects with distance education, and open education. And I reflect on all that, you know, as well. So that brought that back for me in this chapter, like bringing back all that like, piece about, you know, what, what the celebratory nature of connectivism of that time, versus, you know, the critique,
16:19
I will include Susan's article or session in this notes, because this is how I learned. And I think it's also critical to say that certain voices did get amplified. And I think you're right, we are more aware, at least in as you go through a field and you're in the field long enough. And you're also just as you age, I think you're just thinking back to the interactions and what you did and what you're developing. And is it where you want to be? And I think we can't say as we record this in 2020, it's it's been a year, and it's been something of a reckoning to call in, in the last few years of what does it mean for women in different fields? What does it mean for people that are non binary, those who identify as women to take on some of the work and some marginalized voices that don't get brought to the table. And I'm thinking of our black indigenous people of color in other ways that aren't showing up digitally, because they were seen or not seen, or maybe not even valued. And I don't think we've had enough people's voices at the table. So I'm grateful for communities like the FEM tech that to your part of that network. I'm grateful for. I was just talking about this now and saying, like, let's just throw out some other names and examples. We need people to retain us, we'll just create a nice little mainland. Yes. Yeah.
17:36
Well, I'm, of course, Martin, like, you know, in his acknowledgments in the in the book, I mean, he does, I mean, he does a nice job of that. Right. So he includes some, he includes, you know, a list of women, essentially, that have helped shaped his thinking. And I think that's, that's a nice thing to remember, as we have this discussion. So, yeah, he Martin for doing
18:00
that. When he was including this bookmark. Just kidding. I'm upset. I started a podcast instead? Um, no, I think I think there are some ways that we do need to recognize who who brought us to these spaces. And even the quieter voices and the quiet leadership that's out there, I think could be brought up. And just because it's not a keynote, or some big blog that someone's following whatever that is, I think they're relevant more than ever. And I like that he brings up from this, the challenges in connectivism are critical literacies, that we're not talking about the present. Yeah, self directed, like I really think and Cobham brings that up is, what do we do with our learners in the spaces that don't really get it or don't really have agency in some of those things. And that's what I've been thinking more about in 2020, and supporting colleagues in higher ed, their teaching and learning from a distance, but also their students, like some nurses don't have agency to have a presence online, or they have to have anonymity, or they're lacking some of the abilities to have these literacies as well.
19:08
So an online presence takes time. And time is actually an access barrier. Right. So like, there's also that and that that's that's old news, right? We know that from distance education.
19:19
Yeah. And looking at kind of this chapter, what are some things that we could say, literally 10 years later, looking at connectivism, from this standpoint, from 2010 to 2020, that we've learned, or we're still learning about, and we're exploring in this concept, beyond it being? I like the pedagogy of abundance. But what are some things you're learning that came for you For me this chapter again? reread it. Oh, well, I
19:47
mean, I liked how he connected this to MOOCs, because obviously you can't talk about connectivism without connecting it to MOOCs. So certainly, MOOCs haven't gone away. And there's that And there's something else I thought about here that was very still very current in a way. Oh, this whole idea of of like, in a way that what connected ism kind of tapped into I think, which maybe was unique to it was this idea of curation, right? And curation is still like, it's definitely not gone away. In fact, now we can subscribe to email mailing lists that do curation for us, or any number of, you know, other kinds of places on on the internet that do curation for us. So, so it's kind of like this pedagogy of abundance that became so abundant that we need curators.
20:35
Yeah, it's my secret goals to bring out good things. And I think it's interesting, because I found it, it really hurts for people filter through, there's a lot more information. In other words scale. Like that's even a bigger issue is what do we do with all the things if you weren't having people thinking critically, and identifying key sources? And who gets to do that now? So I've been thinking more about the who's the one amplifying and curating those things? And what's what's like our rule, and some of that is also what I'm thinking about these days?
21:08
Yeah, definitely. It's, um, I mean, it's all that and it's, it's sort of, like, I've been thinking a little bit about email mailing lists, like, you know, how emails dead.
21:21
But it is,
21:23
well, so you know, you keep hearing and people supposedly hate their email so much that they have 20, slack groups. idea that like, email, like email lists, like list platforms have never been like, I mean, they're, they're booming, right? Because it's like this new business opportunity for people to have these subscription base, like mailing lists and that sort of thing. So it's sort of an idea again, of like, wow, we're doing this. Like, I mean, there's the thing about the 2010 web was very much about self as curator and, you know, self as online presence and all this. And now it's like become, a lot of these things have become businesses and side hustles. So I think there's it maybe reminded me of that, and I'm not sure how to connect that to connectivism, other than to say, I think it I think it underlines just how I think the enthusiasm as some of connectivism really underlined its point in time. Yeah, it makes sense that we've just repackaged it. And now we sell it. That's almost too cynical for this between the chapters. But
22:32
no, it's not because I think you're calling it what it is. Because if this came out 2005 is when the whatever this was first kind of being coined, it got pumped up in 2010. And what else got pumped up in 2010? onward is web 2.0 social media. And we co opted these spaces that we don't own. And now when should we be surprised that the platform's we don't own people want to monetize. So whether it's now on a blog, or if you're on Instagram, we could sell ads on Facebook, these are spaces that have grown up scaled, and everyone's in the town square now, not just the few that you could filter through, there's a lot back in the day. But now there's even more so to get you noticed in this attention economy, which is what we're all living in, you got to pay to play or you've got to do something extreme or it is manners to me, I'm not into it. Like no one's paying for me to do any of this. I just do it out the love of learning tennis. But I think it's, it's been a weird thing, and we don't talk about it. So I'm glad to bring this up is what do we do now that this connectivism that's amplified a few people, and they've profited off and in some ways, which is weird. I haven't learned how to do that yet. Or I don't really want to do that yet, because it's shy story. So what do we do? Now that we are in these places now that we're leaving? 2010? Sorry, 2020. We haven't solved this problem yet. But it's a result of some of this networked experience, I think,
24:05
yeah, you really connected the dots for me actually, that I hadn't connected. So like, like, I'm thinking about how so connectivism and MOOCs, the early MOOCs were really about, you know, these loose kind of infrastructure, a very self directed very, like participatory and you know, that sort of thing. But what's interesting is that I mean, I'm and I know you're not in higher education anymore, so you're probably more current with this than I am but like the blow up of like, people doing their own online courses through platforms like teachable and Thinkific. And like the online course, marketplace is booming. And it's, it's, it's the opposite of this, like it's completely it's almost like this pedagogy on abundance. People went, Oh my god, I don't tend to curate and I don't tend to do this, but I'll drop $500 on this person's course. He's somebody I follow on a blog or listserv. He's selling a course. Sounds good. Sign me up. mean isn't that
25:01
I missed? I'm missing this whole marketplaces what you just told me? Ah.
25:08
I mean, it's like it's it's like crazy out there. So yeah, so I don't know I just like it's it's it's sort of almost it's almost like the opposite happened.
25:18
So we're actually going back to almost chapter one and two when I talked to Jim and Alan. And we talked about the Wild West like, and I just remember, like, you got a website, I got a website, you know. And now it's like you got a class online that's close. And I want to have one it's a, it's a very funny, like, I'm going to call it a marketplace, because that's what it sounds like. It is hucking their stuff. And instead of it being open, yeah, I have this real problem tennis. When the pandemic hits this earlier this year, someone asked me to do this thing webinar and I, I stopped logging in at one point, I stopped doing a bunch of things, but I'm like, screw you, I'm opening up a Google Doc to curate this stuff for free. And just put things in places because you want to sell this for $500 to people and whatever. And it was like a company that does webinars, and I was like, No, I'm not going to do that. And so here the pop up market economy, people are doing well, though. Sounds like
26:17
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Hugely. So I mean, maybe that takes us full circle. But it's um, yeah, that's that connectivism was, like some of our dreams, maybe, you know, he hit its wall. And there it was, there it is, there it was. And, you know, people did some really good work off of it. I mean, people it was a foundational theory for many dissertations, and articles and research. So you know, it, it definitely served its purpose. So,
26:53
I think I think connectivism not as a theory or framework that he used, but for the people that I was actually able to connect with. And I learned that there's lots of other points of view out there. I'm still learning there's more, and reminds me that we don't we need to think about our worlds not being that small. Because what what has happened in the past happens again, and people that are out there doing whatever they're doing these days, and in higher ed and other places, I think there's always going to be an opportunity in this opportunity, capitalism kind of space, that we have to be aware of the limitations when we do work in a field that's supposed to be sharing knowledge, and sharing practices. At what cost? Is it going to break people? I have some concerns. I don't know, I know, I'd be down there. And I don't want to end this on a negative note. But I'm worried that if we let everything be paid for paid to play, or just that we're going to great, it's gonna bite us somewhere. We need it the most.
28:03
Yeah. And I wonder about, like, what would connectivism look like in the pandemic? Like the pivot the COVID pivot, right, like, would? Is it feasible in that, or is it a really? I don't know. I mean, maybe there'll be time when we come back to connectivism. And look at it differently, too. So maybe it'll get iterative.
28:21
Yeah. And maybe it's like a because it said something about it's had learning possibilities, the end of the chapters, I'd say, there's possibilities that lead to it formation, so maybe it's not connectivism. But it's, um, maybe it's kind of like I think about Mike Caulfield talks about federated networks, like federated wiki, and maybe there's these federated things. I think we have to have a cross talk and sharing. So it makes sense that this is in between what personal learning environments and the chapter before that is around Twitter and Social Media. So it's positioned in a funny spot in the book. But it doesn't mean it doesn't have impact to other chapters that are out there. So I think there's still relevance in blogging, maybe there's relevance in podcasting, and bias. And maybe there's elements in other things that we do, or the platform spaces that bring about people together. I think there's always good things that come together when people are sharing knowledge and making mean together. And I guess that's why it's fun off until like, wingers work and looking at community more or community of inquiry is just interesting to me, because I wasn't always sure what came out of connectivism. So I still was left with a, these are great little nodes around and sharing and learning, but I want somewhere to get the work done in that domain. Yeah,
29:43
I think that's a fair comment for sure. Yeah. And I mean, I think I feel like this period of time was also peak winger as well. So again, it comes back to that, that part of you know, this was kind of you know, there was some really interesting discussions already happening around participation and in it Digital context. So
30:01
yeah, right, we will leave in a negative note, but what do we have? To? What do you have any questions that you'd like to ask Martin about or the community to think about from from this kind of work?
30:11
You know, I think my only question for Martin is how did he land on 2010? Good. I'm curious about that. And well, you know, maybe a question for the community is, you know, what, what's your? What's your experience with connectivism? And how did it actually influence your work? Like, I think there's, you know, because it was influencing people's work. So that would be my question.
30:34
That's good. Those are good. couple questions. Yeah, I think it is, as we wrap up thinking about that, pedagogy of abundance he talked about, I want to know, the abundance can't be growing on the internet forever. So who's going to be the one to clean up is my question Who's, who's going to be the ones that ultimately archives and stores this knowledge and manages this learning? The Secret librarian in me really wants to know, what do we do with all this stuff? And how is it actually being shared and shared across these domains and these pockets that we still find ourselves in and it rebound to, unless you hop into like different, literally professional orgs conferences, or in different pockets on the internet? We need to cross pollinate some of these ideas. So I would like to know how could connectivism actually spread now because some of our platforms have changed how we see things, who we see and what we see. So what we need right now and 2020 and 2021, when this coming out to actually cross pollinate and get rid of that those filter bubbles, I think and what we all need. That's kind of my question to like, anyone that's listening, web tech developers, or tech developers, we need some help. Like, we need to think about how we're doing that better. And is it going back to repositories database? I don't know. I have no idea like, but I think it's it's not working, where we are in these in these spaces where we're just a member of and we don't always own the platform is what I'm thinking.
32:12
Yeah, that's a that's a great. That's a great point. Yeah. I think that sums it up really well. Well,
32:18
Tannis, I'm really glad to be connected. I have like, sorry, I'm C's connected. I should just add into this. Thank you for joining for this conversation on connectivism.
32:35
Thank you for having me. Yeah, I never thought I would be doing this.
32:41
You know, who knows how you'll connect, just be open to it. Until next time. Thanks so much.
32:48
You've been listening to between the chapters with your host, Laura Pasquini. For more information or to subscribe to between the chapters and 25 years of edtech visit 25 years dot open air.ca