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The Pilot Project Podcast is an aviation podcast that aims to help new pilots learn what it takes to succeed in the world of flight, to help people in the flight training system learn what they may want to fly, and to give Canadians and the world a peek into life on the flight deck in the RCAF. We want to help pilots succeed and thrive! We interview real RCAF pilots for their exciting stories as well as the lessons they've learned along the way. We'll learn their tips to develop resilience and the tools it takes to make it in flight training.
This episode is proudly brought to you by the F-thirty five partner team of Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman, and RTX. With over 1,000 Canadian employees at five major facilities across Canada, the F-thirty five program is providing unmatched capabilities and interoperability for Canada and allied militaries around the world. Learn more at www.f35.com/canada.
Bryan:Fuel and ignition switches. On. RPM switches. Set. PD switches.
Bryan:Normal. Doors and hatches. Closed. Lie down. Strobe lights.
Bryan:On. Research check-in fleet with your left. Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison, and with me here today stopping in while they drive across Canada for a posting is captain John Livingston.
Bryan:John is a SAR pilot on the Cormorant, previously a four four two transport and rescue squadron in Comox BC, and now heading to four thirteen Transport and Rescue Squadron in Greenwood, Nova Scotia. John, welcome to my home. Welcome to the show, and thank you so much for taking the time to stop by today for a chat.
John:Thanks so much for having me, Brian. Really excited to be here.
Bryan:So today, we will be talking about John's time flying in the RCAF and particularly about his time flying Tsar on the Kormorant. But before we jump into any of that, let's go through John's bio. Captain John Livingston was born in Comox BC while his father was posted to four zero seven squadron flying the Aurora. His father, having served twenty two years in the military flying multiple airframes and then continuing his piloting career in commercial and corporate aviation, inspired John to look to the skies. After completing high school in Southern Ontario, he considered applying to the military to be a pilot but decided to pursue a degree at UPEI initially.
Bryan:While at UPEI in 2013, John applied and was accepted into the regular officer training plan at RMC to be a pilot. After completing a degree in mechanical engineering and playing varsity hockey, pilot training began. Between phases of flight training, John would do his OJT and Comox at four four two squadron. Following phase two in Moose Jaw, John was married to his wife, Candice, and selected for phase three rotary. A week after the wedding, John was back in the cockpit flying the Bell two zero six and four twelve helicopters and becoming a winged RCAF pilot.
Bryan:He was then posted back to four four two squadron to fly the CH one forty nine cormorant. Prior to starting the Cormorant operational training unit, John had his first child, a daughter, in 2020, then the OTU in July 2021, and operational flying began in November. Life was busy, but life was good. Flying on the West Coast Of Canada is an adventure every day. Operational taskings of rescue missions were slow to come initially, but then would seem more frequent and would come in bunches.
Bryan:John's second child was born in July 2022, following which John continued to build experience in maritime extractions as he prepared for his aircraft commander or AC upgrade. John upgraded to AC in the 2023 and led his first operational SAR mission in January 2024. Highlights of his career since have included being the deputy air operations officer for the Comox Air Show in 2024, being the CH one forty nine demo pilot at the Abbotsford Air Show in 2024, taking part in SAR X two thousand twenty four, as well as numerous rescues. During the last four years, John has been involved in 83 rescue missions throughout BC. He has recently been posted at Greenwood where he will continue to fly the Cormorant at four thirteen squadron.
Bryan:So let's talk about your early days. This is a question we always like to ask, and we briefly passed over this in your bio. But where did aviation start for you?
John:The seed for aviation was really planted for me, for my father. He was a pilot in the military for twenty two years, and he definitely got me interested in aviation. Also, got to think of my grandfather, who was a pilot during the World War II time frame. So both of those were Both of those people were large inspirations for me and definitely got me always looking to the skies.
Bryan:Yeah. Were you in cadets or anything like that?
John:No. I really didn't have much flying experience. Tons of Flight Simulator X time and some video games. But, I think I did maybe two or three hours of, like, one seventy two flying, Cessna one seventy two flying before joining the military. Otherwise, fresh.
Bryan:Really? It's always interesting to talk to somebody who had, like, zero experience because at its core, that's what our flight training system is designed to serve as somebody with no experience off the street. So it's cool to see the system works.
John:Yeah, absolutely. When my dad had joined, I think it was slightly less demand for pilots at that time, and they were looking for people that had quite a bit of flying experience in order to get in. So he was a little skeptical at first with my application that I would actually be accepted, but otherwise, he's been completely supportive.
Bryan:That's awesome. So inspired by your father, you wanted to pursue a career in aviation and perhaps in the CAF. Why did you initially pursue a career at UPEI instead of joining the military?
John:Before deciding to go down the the military avenue, my life was really dedicated to hockey at the time. I was playing a lot of hockey in Southern Ontario, but I I had a girlfriend in Prince Edward Island, and I wanted to be closer to her. I decided to start my studies at UPEI while still playing junior hockey on the East Coast. But during that year and just kind of seeing where things were leading, I decided I really wanted to focus more on my career and the part of my life after hockey. And at that time, I made the decision in consultation with Candace that that I would apply to
Bryan:the military and pursue that. Okay. So the girlfriend in UPEI is now your wife?
John:That's right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's awesome.
Bryan:And so basically, you saw like, okay, I'm not gonna make it to the NHL, so like I need to focus on what's next kind of thing?
John:Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say that I ever really completely let go of the dream, but I saw that it was definitely time to start planning for for a realistic future
Bryan:Yeah.
John:Pursuing education and something that I was really interested in doing, which aviation was definitely that.
Bryan:So what prompted you to apply for ROTP at RMC?
John:So when I initially started talking to the recruiting center, I was more interested in trying to attend a CVU just for the the pace and how much time I would have to dedicate RMC to the whole military education aspect all rolled up in one in in Kingston. But after talking to the recruiters at the recruiting center and because I wanted to pursue a degree in mechanical engineering, they felt that my application would be more competitive if I had indicated RMC is somewhere that I'd be interested in attending. Okay. And I just decided that I would want to go with the most competitive application I could. And so I would consider going to RMC and then that's what I was accepted for and I was happy to accept that.
Bryan:So like did they get you pumped to go there kind of thing or
John:I wouldn't kind say they oversold it in any way. Basically they just alluded that because the degree was offered at RMC that my application would be more competitive if I had also be interested in attending.
Bryan:And you just wanted the best chance possible basically.
John:Yeah, essentially. I didn't feel like my education grades were extraordinary or or my application for any other reason was specifically robust. So I just wanted to give myself every chance.
Bryan:Okay. Right on. So let's talk a little about your time at RMC. You attended Royal Military College or RMC under the ROTP program. What studies did you decide to pursue and why?
John:So like I said, I decided to just go with mechanical engineering. I've always been a guy interested in taking things apart and putting them back together again and and more of a numbers guy. So I definitely thought if I was gonna get a university degree, had a way better chance actually pursuing mechanical engineering or something in that domain rather than an arts degree or something like that.
Bryan:Yeah. Did you find that that degree paid off? Like, do you find that any skills or anything like that kind of still ended up being useful through your career?
John:Yeah, absolutely. Being a helicopter pilot, we're we're working very closely with, you know, a very complex mechanical system. So having that background knowledge about the theories, the fundamentals of how different mechanisms are operating helps me understand them in my day to day work.
Bryan:Okay. Right on. So as always, RMC is a pretty polarizing subject. How did you find your time there?
John:You know, I think that it definitely can be polarizing for people and some people don't have a great experience there. I'm fortunate that I think I did have a really, really good experience. I took advantage of some of the opportunities that RMC has to offer. So I I played a varsity sport, which is huge, and tried to get out there and participate in some of the opportunities that RMC has to offer. I saw some of the cadets at the college participating much less.
John:And I think that going down that road, it's much more of a struggle. Yeah. You know, it's obviously a new adventure for people going to university, period. Yeah. And then adding in the whole military component of it.
John:If you don't have good outlets, good friend group, and doing other things that you're genuinely interested in, I think it can be a very challenging place.
Bryan:Yeah. I believe that. I went to CVU
John:Okay.
Bryan:And I was definitely like, nope. I I don't need to add the stress of the military to my time in university.
John:Yeah.
Bryan:There are definitely times where I thought it would have been pretty cool to go there. Like, I think the sense of camaraderie and the kind of like what's the word? I don't know. You're part of a you're part of a bigger group of people, right, who've graduated from somewhere special and I think that that's really cool. How did you find FIOP or first year orientation period?
John:Well, with all the athletics, I was reasonably fit going into it. So I think that helps. I think, you know, the better shape you are in getting there, obviously, it's very physical for that that first year orientation period. Every morning you're getting up quite early to do PT, physical training outside, working on obstacle courses, teamwork. So having spent so much time in a team environment, it was pretty natural for me.
John:It was definitely an adjustment, the early mornings, late nights, and the whole military mindset. But overall, I don't think it was too bad. What do you
Bryan:think was the hardest part of those days?
John:RMC in general or first year orientation?
Bryan:Let's say RMC in general.
John:At times, balancing hockey and my studies and everything else going on was challenging.
Bryan:Yeah. So like time management?
John:Yeah. Time management and also having the opportunity to, you know, go out and blow off some steam with my friends. Yeah. Managing all of that was definitely challenging at times.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. What did you take from your time at RMC that helped you later in the cockpit?
John:Something that I took away, and I think that it does apply in the cockpit, but just generally also in life, is that you really get out of things what you put into them. And at RMC, I saw, you know, for the graduation parades and and some of the more significant moments at the school, that took a lot of effort from everybody to make those ceremonies feel special. Yeah. And so I tried to remember that throughout that if you really want something to feel special for somebody or you want something to be significant, then you have to put that effort in.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure. And I mean, if you think about graduation parades, wings parades, mess dinners, all those things, like, I think when you're a student and you go through them, you're like, it is a special thing, right? And you're like, wowed. But you're right, like taking time to appreciate what people are doing for you because those instructors go to a mess dinner like every couple weeks, right? And there's a grad every couple months.
Bryan:And the RMC instructors, like, they they go to grads every year, but they try to make yours special. Right? Like
John:Yeah. Absolutely. So the specific occasion I'm thinking of is the graduation parade at the Royal Military College. Every year, once classes and exams are all finished, everybody at the school spends weeks prepping for the graduation ceremony and the graduation parade. And when you're a student, you're not the one graduating, it feels like it sucks.
John:You're on the parade square all summer and it's super hot and you don't want to be there. But then when you're on the other end of it and you're the graduate everyone's there lined up for you that you've been going to school with for the last four years, it's a super significant milestone to mark Yeah. That feels super special. So it's it really sort of shows what I said about getting getting out of what you put into something. Yeah.
Bryan:So let's move on to talking about some of your flight training, specifically phase one. How did you feel as you arrived for phase one flight training, especially as somebody with no experience?
John:Yeah. I felt I definitely felt some anxiety, little bit nervous, super excited. The people and this is a theme throughout my pilot training and my whole military career. The people around me were always fantastic. So having such a good group of people there really helped to to quell that anxiety.
John:We had a lot of fun together and you you spend the first few weeks, you know, in ground school learning how am I gonna do You know, you're almost already comparing yourself against these people, but then also making friendships. And so seeing that I was able to be successful in the exams for the ground school portion, things were going okay, it gave me hope that I was gonna be able to do this once we actually got in the cockpit. And and then started to to ease a little bit. And then I I just did my best to kind of enjoy it and and do my best. And I felt like if I did my best, whatever outcome, you know, was was the outcome at the end, I would be okay with.
Bryan:So it's funny you say that because I was, like, super stressed during phase two. I I skipped phase one Okay. Because I had a commercial multi IFR from school. Nice. So I went and went into phase two without certain amounts of experience.
Bryan:Like, I had no idea about anything to do with military flying, never done aerobatics, like a lot of that kind of stuff. But the biggest thing that was like a watershed moment for me was when I realized that all I can do is my best. And if I can walk away, even if it doesn't work, if you can walk away with your head held high and say, I did my absolute best, like I didn't leave anything behind. There's no like the last thing you want is like for it not to work out and you're like, man, I really could have worked harder.
John:Yeah. So, on phase one, I was so ignorant in a way that I was just doing my best and happy to be there. Yeah. Whereas once I had sort of proved myself for phase two, I think that that made me even more anxious on phase Yeah. Two a little
Bryan:Okay. I got a question about that in a bit and I'm interested to hear more about that. Do you remember what your first impressions were of RCAF flight training?
John:I remember my first my my primary instructor first flights with Liam Marcoux on the Globe having just a great time, such a fantastic instructor. Just loved loved being airborne. At times, it was almost difficult to focus on what the lesson was because I was just having so much fun being up in the air. Yeah. But but yeah, was a great opportunity.
John:I had a lot of fun and just wanted to keep keep flying. Just wanted to be up in the sky as much as possible.
Bryan:Yeah. And it's so great to hear, you know, it's really easy not to have fun as crazy as that sounds when you have flight training, especially in the air force when the pressure's on. Like a lot of people, you you've probably seen those students, right? Like they're super super stressed out. They're walking around with their shoulders slumped.
Bryan:Yeah. Like they're really worried about failing out or their next flight or their next test or whatever it is. It's so easy to forget to have fun. And meanwhile, you're flying these airplanes that like I guarantee that 90% of our listeners would kill just to go for a ride in.
John:A 100%. Yeah. I felt so lucky, so fortunate to be there the whole time. And and I'll talk about it more when we get to some of the later phases. There were times where I definitely felt stressed out.
John:Yeah. But fortunately, on on phase one, I think a large part of that comes from the tone my instructors said in the cockpit. It was an awesome learning environment. I really enjoyed it.
Bryan:What do you think was like your biggest challenge on phase one?
John:On phase one, I think I wanted to be, you know, like a high performance pilot immediately and just kind of, you know, taking it easy, walking, crawling, walking before I ran was important. Not that I was ready to run right out of the bats, but I think I wanted to anyways.
Bryan:For sure.
John:So just slowing things down and really focusing on the fundamentals and and kind of like taking the time to to become a competent pilot before trying to get into more advanced stuff.
Bryan:Yeah, that makes sense. It is it is tough, like if you're a high achiever over performer, like most pilots tend to be, especially in the military. It is tough to realize, like, gotta be humble and start with the basics and like, I remember getting frustrated one time when a sim instructor in Moose Jaw was like, I was flying an ILS and I was having a little bit of trouble with the vertical guidance. And ILS for the listeners is instrument landing system. It's just a thing that guides you to the runway in bad weather.
Bryan:And he he was like pausing the sim and like, okay, you need to we need to nail this down. And like, I remember at first feeling really frustrated, like, but I have I had a like, not to sound cocky. I probably was a little cocky at the time. But I was thinking to myself, like, I have a civilian instrument ticket. I know how to fly an ILS.
Bryan:But he did make me way better at flying the ILS, and I should have been probably more humble at that moment and accepted like, hey, the basic building blocks are what you work on first and like you can worry about your advanced stuff when you get to it. But during the I during like the instrument flight phase, you need to be focusing on instrument flight and perfecting that phase you're on.
John:For sure. I've always been really appreciative of those instructors that are like very particular and force you to be a better pilot
Bryan:For sure.
John:And really be detail oriented. That's something that I've always tried to take away.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. How did phase one go for you overall? I don't remember in fact where
John:I kind of ended up in the rankings of the course or anything like that. I remember doing well. I don't think I was the top of the course or anything like that. I just remember being happy, yeah, that I got through it Yeah. And that I was successful and that I was moving on to phase two.
Bryan:Yeah. And realistically, phase one, all that matters is if you pass. Like Yeah. Topping your course is nice, but it doesn't get you any Mhmm. Anything like bonus points or
John:Absolutely.
Bryan:It doesn't help you get selected on a certain aircraft or any of that. That all comes later.
John:So Yep.
Bryan:So in between flight training courses, you did your OJT in Comox, BC at four four two Transport and Rescue Squadron. Can you tell us about your OJT experience there?
John:Yeah. I was lucky while being unlucky. So at the Royal Military College, often between third and fourth year, you'll get to do your phase one, your primary flight training. There were so many pilots in my year, there weren't enough slots for everybody to actually do training. And they said, hey, John, unfortunately, we don't have a spot for you this summer to do phase one training.
John:So we're gonna send you on on the job training. You can pick whichever base you wanna go to. I was born in Comox, but I hadn't been back since the nineties. I've always heard it's a beautiful place, super interested. I said, I want to go to four forty two Squadron.
Bryan:So is this before phase one?
John:Yeah. I actually spent a summer there before phase one
Bryan:initially.
John:And then I went back after phase one between phase one and phase two, and kept going back.
Bryan:Both times at 04:42?
John:That's right. Yeah. The four forty two is actually the only squadron I've ever been to. That's crazy. That's so far.
John:Soon to make four thirteen in the second. But it was it was an awesome opportunity. Definitely got me interested in the star mentality, seeing how operational the squadron was, but then also, you know, put such a premium on the training, making sure everybody was operating at the highest performance they could. And just the camaraderie and the pride at that squadron definitely got hooked. Yeah.
John:What was your job there? So generally F-four 42 OJTs come in and they'll work at the ops desk. So that's kind of the hub of the squadron. You really get your finger on the pulse of everything that's going on. A lot of communications that come into the squadron, whether it's just people calling into the squadron, know, you're directing the call or you're you're forwarding emails.
John:But in that, you kind of you know, you get little pieces of information about what's going on all over the place. So it really gives you a good sense of how the squadron runs Mhmm. And really gets you introduced to to key people around the squadron. It's a it's an awesome opportunity for somebody that's just getting into the military to really kind of see how the whole organization runs.
Bryan:For sure. Did you get a chance to do much flying there? Like, did they take you up much?
John:They were awesome to offer. Whenever there was, you know, an extra person or two at the desk, they would be more than happy to say, hey, when do you guys want to come flying today?
Bryan:It was still the buff. Right?
John:Yeah. Got to take a couple of flights on the buff, which is amazing seeing that that old beautiful aircraft. Did it get you
Bryan:in the seat?
John:I remember flying briefly one time while we were on an IFR clearance. So I didn't really get to turn or do anything. Still you flew But I was up there.
Bryan:That's pretty cool.
John:Touch the controls. Yeah, it was an incredible machine. Super cool. I'm super happy to have been able to do that. And then also I got to fly in the Korm a bunch.
John:I can't remember getting hoisted very much as an OJT, but I do remember often being a casualty, simulated casualty for the search and rescue technicians
Bryan:Oh, yeah?
John:To come and they were poking me with IVs. Like for real? Oh, yeah. They would give give you your like Saline or whatever. Yeah, exactly.
John:Just some saline. They really appreciated being able to actually practice that for real. And then simulated broken limbs or whatever, chest pain, stuff like that. So yeah, that was really fun.
Bryan:Man, that sounds like a lot of fun.
John:I think my first day there at the squadron, I had an IV going in each arm. Two Sartecs wanted to race. We could get one get one started faster.
Bryan:That's hilarious. Did working at four forty two inspire you to fly SAR aircraft?
John:Definitely. Being there, seeing how the people operated, seeing how the level of commitment, how operationally minded everybody was, gave me a ton of interest in being at a place like that. I definitely wanted to be somewhere where there was such team cohesion, where everybody was pursuing the same objectives. I was definitely very interested in coming back to four four two.
Bryan:Yeah. And as you know, I just spent the last week in Comox with four four two, spending a couple days with four four two squadron. And I got a little taste of that, and I have to say, like, probably the SAR world doesn't need any help recruiting, but my gosh, like, if if I could go back, I would want to be part of SAR. In fact, that was gonna be my next posting
John:Oh, yeah.
Bryan:In Trenton. But I I think the SAAR world is amazing. Everyone I met was so positive, so mission focused, so motivated. Like, it was just really, really impressive. Like, I haven't seen such a bunch of hardworking yet very happy people in a squadron maybe ever.
John:Yeah. Everybody definitely wants to be there and is very driven and happy to be there. So it's a really enjoyable place to work.
Bryan:Yeah. And it and it helps that you're in Comox, has which got to be one of the most beautiful places I've ever been.
John:It doesn't hurt. One of the biggest challenges is always picking which hobby you want to do that day. Yeah.
Bryan:What's a key lesson about SARA that you learned at four forty two Squadron that you still use to this day?
John:I think I might use this as like a bit of a public service announcement, because something that I've really taken away from SAR flying is is how much preparation can be important when you are doing adventurous activities in the wild kind of a way in remote areas. Just leaving somebody with a plan of what you're gonna be doing, where you are, taking some extra seconds to have a good plan and then a plan if things don't go to plan. Have maybe a personal locator beacon or like a Garmin inReach. People know where you're gonna be and have check-in times. Things like that can really really make a big difference if things don't go as planned.
John:And with that also, something that's really become obvious to me is searching for people in water is super challenging. I did the sailing course also while I was in Comox. And this is something that Every time I was going on the water, I would think about. And I would try to make sure I would dress in bright colors and then like flotation, having my PFD close by was always important to me or or wearing it while sailing because searching for somebody in the water that is difficult to find because their clothing is not brightly colored or they don't have a life jacket. It it literally makes the difference between life and death.
John:Yeah. So I I would highly recommend to to make those considerations before whatever you're doing. Go out there and have fun, but but have a good plan.
Bryan:Yeah. Having practiced a little bit of searching, on the Aurora, totally agree. Like we used to every now and then drop a sonoboy down and then at the top of a sonoboy is like a triangular float
John:Okay.
Bryan:Bright orange at at the surface. And I think they call it a witch's hat. And we would sometimes use that to simulate a person. And even though it was a bright orange thing in the in the water, it's very hard to find. Like, the aircraft is moving.
Bryan:The ocean is vast. Mhmm. Something that is pretty big in real life from even a 100 feet looks pretty small in the water. So I totally agree with that.
John:Yeah. Yeah. It can it can be super challenging and more than anything in that situation, we just want to find what we're looking for. Yeah. So
Bryan:And usually And that's in like, you know, that was not even in crazy conditions. Right? Like, once the sea state comes up, it's crazy.
John:Yeah. If if the weather turns or if the water is moving at all, it makes it a completely different game. Yeah. Way more challenging, absolutely.
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Bryan:So let's, jump back into talking about your flight training. We'll talk about phase two. So now that you've gone through phase one, you need to make it through phase two flight training. You're one step closer to achieving those dreams. So did you find that having a father who was an air force pilot added pressure?
John:Honestly, I didn't really find any extra pressure because of that. I think all of the pressure that I that I did feel throughout the course was self imposed for the most part. My, my dad was very supportive always and always happy and wanted to chat about what I was up to and hear about my flights and get the debrief. So that was super fun. And he would give me his little tidbits of knowledge instruction that I would maybe or maybe not listen to.
John:But that was super fun and I never really Can't really say that I ever felt extra pressure because of it.
Bryan:Yeah. That's good because I had peers who's like Like I had a good friend of mine comes to mind, I won't name him, but and he did succeed in the end. But he wanted to be a fighter pilot so bad and his dad had been a fighter pilot and you would see him get towards tests, like very nervous. And he was a great pilot, But he just got super like, I I swear I can remember him looking like pale and like shaken basically.
John:Mhmm.
Bryan:And it I don't know how he got over it because he did become a fighter pilot and Awesome. And did quite well. But I've seen that that when you have like heritage in the military, I've seen that add pressure to people before.
John:Yeah. Understandably. I feel fortunate that I didn't put that pressure on myself. Not to say that I Like I said, I did have a lot of pressure and definitely had lots of test anxiety. Yeah.
John:But I I just didn't perceive it coming from there.
Bryan:Do you want to talk about that now? Like, how was that for you? You said you had a lot of self induced pressure.
John:Yeah. I wanted to do well. I definitely had test anxiety throughout my pilot training. But on phase two, I really enjoyed the idea of formation flying and I really wanted to be a really good formation pilot. So I put a lot of pressure on myself for that phase of it.
John:It's also the last phase completed. So it was at the end, you know what I mean? It was the last hurdle to get past and I wanted to do well with it. So with that, I think I really loaded up the pressure on myself. And for formation flying, I'm sure anybody that's done it will know that it's something you need to be really smooth for and you wanna be smooth on the controls.
John:And I was punchy on the throttle.
Bryan:So
John:it made it challenging, I was able to hang in there. But it's something I wish I could have done more of actually. It's super fast on phase two. I think you do six hours, something
Bryan:Something like like that, six or seven or something.
John:Type formation flying. And I would have loved to have an opportunity to do ten, fifteen hours of it. Yeah. Because it was something that I was only beginning to feel comfortable with, if I can say that at the end.
Bryan:Yeah. I agree. I would have loved to do more too. I think that was maybe Like, low level nav was really cool. Yeah.
Bryan:Absolutely. Formation flying is just like such a unique thing, like, flying that close to an aircraft, the precision that it takes and the Yeah. The skill. And like like you said, you have to be really smooth. It's fun.
Bryan:And it's like a it's like a whole different skill from all the rest of flying. Like Yeah. Absolutely. And it's something that you really have to work on to get decent at. And like you only kind of start to be decent.
Bryan:Like like they don't even take you into any of the advanced maneuvers. Right? Like 60 degree turn, I think is the most you do on that.
John:Yeah. Very basic. Just just maneuvering around, just just holding, maintaining formation basically and some rejoins, very simple rejoins. But but just the basics.
Bryan:Yeah. It was cool. How did you find flying the Harvard two overall?
John:I love that machine. I remember the first time taking off, climbing away from Moose Jaw. I said, I think the instructor probably even heard it. I was like, I need to get one of these. That machine's amazing and it's so cool to have the opportunity to fly an aircraft with World War II war fighter performance, tandem seating, bubble cockpits, super high performance.
John:It was a blast to fly. Really, really enjoyed it. I remember initially, because of the torque from the prop getting back from those like one point zero one hour flights, one and a half hour flights and feeling exhausted
Bryan:Yeah.
John:Took its toll. But you get used to it after a while and, yeah, it was an amazing experience.
Bryan:Yeah. Lot of people get very fatigued or airsick Yeah. At Harvard. I totally agree with you. I've said it many times.
Bryan:The Harvard is like as close as you can get to flying a World War two fighter on a modern air aircraft, I think. And it's just awesome.
John:So much fun.
Bryan:It's a great plane.
John:Just think about where you want to go and it'll go there. Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. Other than that self induced pressure, did you have any particular challenges on phase two?
John:I think that, the pace of the course itself, I We would Coming on the end of it, double turn, so two different sorties in a single day. Often it would be one The first sortie would be an IFR trip, and then the second would be a low level nav. And so finding the time to prep for the nav route and make sure that I can deliver an appropriate briefing for that was challenging balancing the pace of the course coming on the end of it. And then also the pressures that I mentioned, I definitely would get quite a bit of anxiety coming up to test. At this point, you're thinking about your selection, what airframe you might be flying afterwards.
John:So definitely started to put some pressure on myself with all of that. And then like I said, the formation flying coming on the end. I would have liked to have had more time and and, you know, been a bit more proficient with it.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough course and that that pace of the course, like you said, is can be very challenging, especially if you're doing like, you're doing decent, they'll really push you. And I mean, even if it's even if basically as long as you're passing, like they might be double turning you because like there's a there's a schedule to be maintained and you need to graduate on x day and Yeah. You know, it's pretty amazing how they manage to, across the schools, keep very tightly to those graduation dates.
John:Yeah. Absolutely. And there's a few bit more than a 100 students that graduate through Moose Jaw annually. Exactly. So they get them get all those students through there.
John:And I don't wanna say you're just a number because there are those personal interactions, but it's a bit bigger of a machine than the phase one training, I would Yeah.
Bryan:For sure. What is the biggest lesson you learned from phase two that continues to influence you as a pilot today?
John:Something that I really took away from phase two was prepping for things, taking the appropriate amount of time to be prepped for check rides or just day to day flying and putting in that sort of effort. And one other thing that I really, thought about a lot was the fact that there were certain instructors day to day because on phase two you fly with a number of different instructor pilots. And one day you'd fly with a pilot and you'd feel like a rock star, one of the best pilots, the best flying you've done. And then the next day you have a different pilot and for whatever reason, you know the vibes in the cockpit aren't the same and it stresses you out and you feel like you can't perform even close to that the pilot you were yesterday. And that's sort of something I've taken away and thought about, especially as I'm moving into instructing pilots on the corner now.
John:But being a pilot that promotes the other pilot being the best they can be. What kind of attitude can I have to make sure the guy sitting beside me is flying at his best?
Bryan:That's a really interesting concept. I haven't I don't think I've encountered too many people like a lot I've encountered lots of amazing people doing this show who, you know, obviously want to help everyone around them be the best, but I think that's interesting to like very consciously in that while you're flying, just kind of say like, how can I best enable this person to be the best pilot they can be? That's awesome.
John:Yeah. It's definitely Like like I said, it's something I really took away. It would almost frustrate me that there was people I like them. I got along well with them. They're awesome instructors.
John:I I don't know if it was a pressure I put on myself, but but definitely there were people that I felt I performed better with and I try to take away, you know, what enabled that.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. It's pretty common, like, some people get nervous with certain instructors. Some instructors have a reputation as being tough or
John:Absolutely.
Bryan:You know, people will say like, oh, what is that instructor? Like, what what are their gotchas? Like, what are they gonna try to get you on and stuff? I know for me on phase two, I just tried to pretend that every instructor was the same and just really tried to take that out of the equation for like mental performance for me. And I think I was able to do that pretty well, but it's not easy.
Bryan:Especially if you know you're flying with someone who like, you know, failed someone yesterday or something like that.
John:Yeah. Absolutely. People will start to get those notorious reputations Yeah. Even if they're not always deserved.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. When you finished your course, you were selected to fly helicopters. Was that what you wanted?
John:You know, it I was very uncertain at that time about what direction to go in. Helicopters wasn't my first choice for selection after phase two. And I was very lured by the high performance flying and, you know, potentially flying jets one day. Kind of a flip side to that story would be that I I really did wanna fly the Qormran and fly helicopters, but there's so few people selected to fly the Qormran annually that I felt like it was a bit of a roll of the dice. So it I felt like maybe flying the Harvard again and pursuing potentially, you know, fast jet stream would be a good fit.
John:And if it didn't work out, I I was actually interested in potentially being sort of a pipeline instructor as well. That Okay. Wasn't something that I was overly, dissuaded from doing. So that kind of directed my selection. But, when I was selected helicopters, I was super excited about that.
Bryan:Yeah. It's tough. I had a guy on my course, a really good friend of mine who I still remember we were sitting at the Humpty's in Moose Jaw. I remember the day he decided that he was gonna go. He was like, the only helicopter I want is cormorants.
Bryan:And I But I'm But I know there's only like one slot for them, but I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go for it. And he did get cormorants.
John:Yeah. In hindsight, that's the direction I would definitely push people to take. Yeah. I think just always pursue what interests you the most.
Bryan:Yeah. Don't You don't have to go the safe route.
John:Yeah. I I mean, I did feel like maybe if I did an instructional tour at that I'd have a chance to switch over to Qorman, you know, something of that nature. But, if there's something that, know, you've been working so long to do, I would definitely try and persuade everybody to follow that dream.
Bryan:Yeah. I like to ask questions about this when I get a chance, especially if somebody kind of puts more personal info in their bio. After phase two in Moose Jaw, you got married to your wife, Candice. Now phase three is a long and challenging course for helicopter students. So how did you balance your personal and professional life at that time?
John:So my wife has been super supportive of me. Kind of when I decided to join the military, I wouldn't say it was a decision I made, it was kind of a decision that we made that she would support me through the training and becoming a pilot in the military. So it was kind of understood going into it that it was gonna be a challenging process that I'd have to dedicate a lot of time to. So on completing phase two, we had obviously been planning for a while to get married and it turned out it was quite tight timeframe between phase two and phase three. So we made the most made the most of that.
John:And then getting back on course, Candice has just always been so supportive of of my career and doing everything she can to make sure that I'm successful through that. Yeah, we've been a team throughout it all. So I'm really proud of that.
Bryan:Yeah. And I would say like, especially when I talk to, let's say like a general or something sometimes and they still are with their spouse. The ones who are who make it are the ones who approach this as a team and like they're not just out making decisions by themselves and, you know, the wife and kids can deal with it and like they'll, oh, they'll be fine. Like it's team decisions. It's you discuss like the next you discuss the next bound whether that's a posting or a new position you wanna pursue or whatever it might be.
Bryan:So, yeah, it's good that you guys kinda started that way from the get go even when, like you said, when it came to like, are you gonna join the military?
John:Yeah. It is a huge commitment to join military.
Bryan:For both people?
John:Exactly. And I can totally see why, you know, when when one partner in the relationship doesn't feel like they were considered in that decision, that could put a lot of stress on a on a relationship. So the fact that, you know, we knowingly went down this road together, I think helped. And then we just have like a fortunately super strong relationship and I'm super happy with how she's been able to to step up all the time when I need her to.
Bryan:Yeah. That's awesome. So a week after you were married, you were back in the cockpit for phase three rotary wing training. Did you find it tough to shift back into work mode so soon after your wedding?
John:We had about a month off between phase two and phase three and I got married right near the end of that just before going back on to phase three. And it happened so quickly that I I got married and then we had a couple of days and then I was driving back across the country to Portage to start phase three. I don't even know at that time that the whole fact that I had just been married really even had a chance to sink in.
Bryan:Yeah.
John:And then because I had that drive, I kind of got refocused back into that pilot training mindset. And then in Portage, I was removed from that whole environment once again. Yeah. And so I was really focused at that time on my pilot training again. And because I was flying helicopters and wanted to get into the cormorant, which is a challenging cockpit to get into, I really wanted to throw myself into that course and just try to completely focus on that.
John:Fortunately, we had an amazing summer of weather in Portage. I guess that would have been in 2019. And we were able to get through the two zero six phase relatively quickly about a three to four week gap between finishing the two zero six and getting on the four twelve.
Bryan:That's awesome.
John:So I was able to take some leave and Candice and I actually went on our honeymoon at that time. Oh, where'd you go? We went to Aruba. Nice. Had a great trip.
John:It was super fun. So so I got to, you know, break up the course a little bit and spend some time with her and and that was awesome.
Bryan:Yeah. So you guys were IR at that time or Which is for listeners is imposed restrictions. So that's when you're you're posted away from your spouse.
John:Yeah. I drove She met me in Toronto where my parents live now. So I drove from Portage to Toronto. She We met there and then we traveled down to Aruba.
Bryan:Okay. Right on.
John:So how did you like learning to fly helicopters? Flying a helicopter initially is scary and challenging. The instructors like John Groton, Jeff Barth, those guys a lot of courage in day to day getting in the helicopter with brand new helicopter pilots. It's super unstable initially. Even just sitting in ops watching people lift off for the first time for some of their first few helicopter flights, it's terrifying just to watch it because it seems so unstable.
John:Yeah. Slowly but surely, you start to figure out how all the controls are linked together and the inputs you need to make to maintain a stable platform. And before you know it, after I think it's ten hours or something, you know you're going solo. And and that's crazy. The first time you go solo, you're almost thinking, are you are you sure?
John:Like, are are you sure I'm ready for this? Just to take this machine. But, yeah, it was amazing. Such a good group of people at the school. Mike Bottoms and Michael Cain, teaching us to fly helicopters initially.
John:It was a great experience.
Bryan:Yeah. Those are a really great group of people that you've mentioned. And the school is is really chock full of great instructors who really care about their students and really want them to succeed. So it's good to hear that you had that same experience.
John:Yeah. I think that I tried to get back to my phase one mindset a little bit on phase three about just doing my best and be happy with the results and tried to to, you know, wash away a little bit of that pressure and anxiety. Mhmm. Definitely still felt it, but, just wanted to do my best and there was such a group great group of people around me, all my course mates that that I really enjoyed the course.
Bryan:Yeah. What did you find was the most challenging part of phase three?
John:So in phase three, I definitely experienced a lot of test anxiety getting ready for, the selection to what airframe we'd be flying. I put a lot of pressure on myself for that. I was very excited to be there and to be moving forward. Coming up to those tests, I would really, really get quite a bit of nerves. So that was difficult.
Bryan:How did you overcome that?
John:I think that just having the opportunity to be around and study with my course mates, Pat McPherson, Michael Pearson, a lot of really good guys, Martin Damianoff, Ian Robertson, they were all so good to work together and study together and make sure that everybody was gonna be successful in the course. It is competitive in a way. Everybody's fighting for slots on airframes, but at the end of the day, everybody still wanted to help each other be successful. So having them there and then just having a routine, trying to like kind of get into the the routine of getting up in the morning, getting a workout, going to study, get my flight done, prep for the next flight. Yeah.
John:Just kind of breaking it up in that way really helped me sort of just just get into a rhythm.
Bryan:Yeah. When you can kind of make it Groundhog Day and every day is fairly predictable and similar and you have your little comfort routine, like you said, get that workout in and do all the things you need to do, It makes life a lot more predictable and kind of low stress.
John:Yep, definitely helped for me.
Bryan:What was the most exciting experience you had on phase three?
John:Well, think that everybody has an exciting experience while they're doing their first solos on the 206. Whether or not they mean to or not, that's an exciting time. Getting to fly around an area north, just on the North part of Southport in a little two zero six. I feel like it's the dirt bike of the sky in a way. And it's such a simple machine in a lot of ways compared to some of the other helicopters that I've flown now.
John:But it's a real pleasure to just rip around in and you're just kind of getting acquainted with flying a helicopter, and having that freedom to go and, oh, I wanna go land over there. And you know what I mean? There's so much freedom in a helicopter. That that was a really awesome time. Yeah.
John:It sounds like a
Bryan:lot of fun. I think I'm a multi guy, but I think helicopters are super cool.
John:I appreciate that.
Bryan:They're they're way I think they're very versatile and the flying flying is like pretty amazing, especially some of the low level flying that they can do is pretty spectacular.
John:Yeah. Absolutely. It's it's a cool way to see the world.
Bryan:What did it feel like to march up on parade and get your wings?
John:I graduated in early twenty twenty. Oh, no. So, yeah, I had a really interesting experience actually for my my graduation from phase three of my wings. At that time, we were all dispersed. So Candice was living in Comox.
John:I finished course a little bit early. I finished in December 2019. And I asked if I could leave for a few weeks to spend some time with her before my grad because I was done flying. And so that got approved. And just after I left is when the pandemic kind of hit the world.
Bryan:Yeah. When they told us all to like stay in your house basically. Yeah, exactly. Military was like It was essentially like an order to not leave your place of residence.
John:Exactly. So I was there in Comox at that time and they said, hey, just stay there for now. There was so much up in the air. They didn't know what was happening with the whole pandemic. Just stay where you are.
John:So I ended up staying there. And then a couple of weeks, let it into a couple of months. And I ended up doing my grad virtually.
Bryan:Really?
John:So it was kind of weird. It was unfortunate we didn't get to have our grad dinner. That was something I really wish I had been able to take part in. And we did a virtual wing ceremony. So that was, you know, not not the ideal ceremonious occasion.
Bryan:How do they do that? Like like how do you get wings?
John:Gerald Walker was there and I remember I think I didn't fully realize that I was expected to be there for the virtual ceremony. So I kinda maybe got woken out of bed even
Bryan:Oh, really? For my
John:own wing ceremony. I can't remember completely. But they kinda they they presented us our wings. And then afterwards, a few months later in August, I had my dad actually come out to Comox. So he actually pinned my wings on me.
John:Oh, that's awesome. That was Yeah. That was a really cool experience.
Bryan:That's cool. Did he get like a picture and stuff?
John:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. The the squadron CEO at the time, you know, brought as many people on the ramp as they could. And I don't think it's something that happens super often because generally everybody gets winged in Portage.
John:Yeah. So it was pretty neat to be able to get winged in Comox in front of the Coromaran with my dad.
Bryan:That's awesome. In some ways, that's kind of it's very unique. I I won't say it's more special than getting a wings grad parade because, like, as we talked about earlier, those are very special moments.
John:Yeah. Exactly.
Bryan:That's a pretty close second, if not a tie.
John:Yeah. Definitely a silver lining to
Bryan:it. Yeah. So as we've already mentioned, you passed phase three and were selected to fly the CH one forty nine Kormorant with four forty two Transport and Rescue Squadron in Comox BC. I think we've kind of know this, but was that what you wanted?
John:Yeah. Absolutely. From the time I found out that I was gonna be flying helicopters, it was my sole goal to try and get to Comox and fly the Cormorant.
Bryan:Yeah. So you got the location, you got the aircraft.
John:I would have been happy, you know, anywhere flying the Cormorant especially. Yeah. But to get into Comox, flying the Cormorant,
Bryan:like was That really the grand slam.
John:Dream come true. I had to pinch myself a few times.
Bryan:What did you learn during your time as a student on phase three that influenced how you conduct yourself as a star pilot later in life?
John:I really, really, really took away the value of, the camaraderie and being close knit with the other guys that are around you. Even at times when you feel competitive with each other, helping each other, working together. And and on phase three in the helicopters is the first time we're really exposed to crew, like a crew concept in the cockpit. And so taking that to heart and embodying that style of flying in it with a crewed environment definitely was huge for working at four forty two in the sire environment. So just being a team player always and I think my communication skills, probably have to ask my wife, but I think that they probably improved vastly being in the cockpit with somebody else and explaining that to them what I'm doing.
Bryan:Yeah. During my time with four forty two, I could really clearly see how much teamwork was valued there and, it's great that that's something you carried forward from your time at phase three.
John:Yeah. Yeah. It's one of my favorite parts of working in the siren environment at four four two and I'm sure it'll be like that at four thirteen as well. Yep. Is just how tight knit everybody is in that squadron and and amongst the the crews when we're out operating, you know, we all work together to achieve the mission.
John:It's definitely a team environment and every person on the team is a key player.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. So we're going to close with some advice. What advice would you give to
John:a student just starting out their flight training today? Flight training can be extremely stressful and can go by before you know it. So I would definitely advise everybody involved in pilot training to take a moment. Try to do it at least once a flight if you can, but just take a deep breath and look out and see where you are. It's an amazing thing to be able to fly, to be up in the clouds and, seeing the sights that we get to see.
John:So just really try and and put that back in perspective once in a while and take a moment to yourself if you can.
Bryan:Awesome. Okay, John. That is going to wrap up part one of our chat for today. Thanks so much for sharing your memories of early flight training in the RCAF, and I'm really looking forward to hearing your SAR stories when we return for part two. So thanks again for being here.
John:Thanks so much for having me. Excited for it.
Bryan:Okay. That wraps up part one of our chat with John. Tune in next week as we dive into his operational time on the CH one forty nine Cormorant, including some very challenging missions he took part in and the road to becoming an aircraft commander. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?
Bryan:You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and mission aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.
Bryan:Thanks for listening. Keep the blue sign up. See you. Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.
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