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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
Meredith Brock:
Well, hi, friends. Thanks for tuning in to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Meredith Brock, and I am here today with my co-host, Shae Hill.
Shae Hill:
Hey, Meredith.
Meredith Brock:
You guys might not know, but our girl Kaley Olson is out on maternity leave right now. And so while she's out taking care of her new baby, you're going to hear from some new friends, some of our Proverbs 31 staffers, and I can't wait for you to get to know them.
Shae Hill:
Yes. I'm so happy to be here today. Thanks for having me. And, guys, you may have seen or heard us talk a lot about this word “trust” recently around Proverbs 31 Ministries. And one of those reasons is because our president, Lysa TerKeurst has a book coming out very soon, and it's called I Want to Trust You, but I Don't: Moving Forward When You're Skeptical of Others, Afraid of What God Will Allow, and Doubtful of Your Own Discernment. We are so excited for this new book, but specifically for today, we're really excited to continue talking about trust by sharing an interview that Lysa recently did with Brittany Sjogren.
Maybe you've seen her on social media. Her Instagram handle is @loverlygrey, and in this conversation, you're going to hear Lysa and Brittany discuss the topic of trust through the lens of difficult relationships. But Brittany is also so vulnerable and honest about her journey with infertility and the struggle to really fully trust God through that process. And at the end of the day, what I enjoy most about this conversation is just how normal and common trust issues really are.
Meredith Brock:
I think that we all deal with them.
Shae Hill:
For sure.
Meredith Brock:
I know I have my own version of trust issues. You have yours. I don't know anybody who this doesn't apply in their lives.
Shae Hill:
A hundred percent.
Meredith Brock:
One more thing before we let you listen to today's episode ... We wanted to make sure you knew about one more free resource that Lysa put together. It's called “When the Person Who Hurt You Got Away With It: Three Days to Moving Forward.” Yikes! That is a hard subject for us to tackle, but it is so needed, you guys. This resource is linked in our show notes, so be sure to grab it by scrolling below.
Shae Hill:
All right, friends, let's dive into today's episode.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Well, what a joy it is to have Brittany Sjogren with me. You can follow her delightful Instagram feed over @loverlygrey. Brittany, thank you so much for agreeing to be with me today. And I believe most of what I'm wearing today, you probably recommended, and so you have influenced my fashion choices in such a fun way.
Brittany Sjogren:
I love that. I am honored Lysa to be talking with you. This is honestly kind of like a dream of mine ... just having this opportunity to spend a few minutes with you and hearing from you. So I am personally very excited about this conversation.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Well, thank you so much. OK, Let's jump right into this big issue called trust. I've just written a book called I Want to Trust You, but I Don't, and there are three main areas we're going to talk about: trusting other people, trusting our own discernment and even trusting God. I've been through seasons where all three of those were fractured and hurt, and I would say because trust is the oxygen of all human relationships, a relationship starved of trust is a relationship starved of vibrancy and potentially even life.
But before we get to the heavy stuff, I want to just check in and say, OK, Brittany, where do your trust issues sneak in? And I'm going to confess first. OK?
Brittany Sjogren:
OK.
Lysa TerKeurst:
There are so many different things that I put on the list, but I'm going to confess something that's not on the list. When I go to a doctor, I really do want to see his framed diploma and I want to get up close and I want to just make sure that it really, really looks real, that it's a real school. And I may or may not have Googled a school of medicine before just to make sure it's legitimate.
Brittany Sjogren:
I love that.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I was telling the ladies at my office this and not one other person related to me.
Brittany Sjogren:
That's so funny.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Hi, I'm Lysa, and I have trust issues. Your turn, Brittany.
Brittany Sjogren:
Oh man. I feel like when I am ordering coffee or something in the drive-through and they've got the sign and it pops up, if they get it wrong, I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't ... On the screen, it doesn't say what I just said. Are you sure you heard extra shot of espresso there?" And then they'll be like, "Oh yes, hold on." And I'm like, "You didn't hear that?"
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes, I relate to that so much. And then I also can get up to the window, and I feel so much pressure. They hand me my order, and I want to double-check everything. If it's a coffee drink, I want to sip it just to make sure it's right. But then I'm also embarrassed because I'm doing it in front of the person who obviously wants me to believe that it's correct, and there are 10 people behind me. And it's just this whole crisis I have. Do I drive off and not make that person feel bad, or do I check it and if it's wrong later, I'm going to feel bad?
Brittany Sjogren:
Right. Well, and then you drive off and taste it and if it's wrong, you're like, "Well, now am I stuck with this, or do I have to go back? How bad do I really want to?"
Lysa TerKeurst:
And then you have to park your car and go inside, and it's a whole thing.
Brittany Sjogren:
I know.
Lysa TerKeurst:
So I did some research and found that it is no wonder that we have trust issues, not because of things that we've already talked about — silly little examples. But because statistics show that the average American lies four times a day.
Brittany Sjogren:
Wow!
Lysa TerKeurst:
Four times a day.
Brittany Sjogren:
That's a lot.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I've told people that before, and they're like, “There's no way.” Well, some of them are courtesy lies like, "Do I look good?" And you're just like, "Yeah." Maybe it's not your favorite outfit that they're wearing. And that's understandable. I mean, we want to be kind and all of that. But then other times we'll show up to a meeting and say, "Oh, traffic was terrible today," when in actuality, traffic was normal for that time of the morning. It's just I left my house later than I intended. Right?
Brittany Sjogren:
Right.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And so whether we're talking about these lies that just kind of fly out of our mouth and seem like no big deal but in reality, they're still lies, or whether we're talking about more major things like someone says they're going to do something and they don't do it. Or even like in my story, a huge trauma was the trauma of infidelity and betrayal in my previous marriage, and it rocked me to my core. But no matter where we are on the spectrum, whether it's a disappointment or a major betrayal, it really hurts when someone we thought we could count on doesn't come through for us. So I wanted to ask you where have you seen this play out in your life?
Brittany Sjogren:
Well, I have actually walked through this with some friends and some of them a little bit more recently just going through a traumatic situation. I've been that listening ear. I've been like, "Let's come up with a plan. What can we do?" And there's so much rawness that comes with those conversations in just sitting next to a friend who's telling me all these things she's going through, and then I am now upset with her spouse because of just the lack of communication, what was being hidden. I'm mad that she's having to go through this situation, and so I feel like I've been right there with a close friend going through this.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Do you feel that reading this book will equip you or has maybe already equipped you to take this big word “trust” and break it down into bite-size things that you could talk about with your friend or maybe even help read it together and help you both understand, "OK, where do we go from here?"
Brittany Sjogren:
Yeah, so it's interesting because when I started reading the book, I immediately was like, "I have got to give this to my friend. I know it is not coming out for a few more months." And I'm like, "I'm giving you my advanced copy," because it is so many of the things that I read and even just scripture that you pointed out and stories from your friends who have some details in the book. I'm like, "This is what she needs to feel comfort. This is what she needs to remember that God is still with her. This is what she needs to help get over the situation or guide her to having the conversation she needs to have."
So I absolutely think there have been so many nuggets of truth that I would use for future situations that I might be in, but I know it will definitely impact my friend right now.
Lysa TerKeurst:
One of my favorite parts of the book is I go through [the] 11 red flags, and I don't [inaudible] for a long time. I basically said, "If someone is demonstrating this, this is usually what it looks like. This is how it can play out." But those red flags are not just what to look for in future relationships, but there also can be ways to identify the roots of distrust. So if you start to have that ick feeling like, "I don't feel like I can trust that person," this will really help you examine where some of those roots of distrust could be coming from. And then once you identify the issue, then you can work on the issue.
Was there a part of the book, it doesn't have to be that chapter but any part of the book, that resonated with you, that you were like, "OK, this part ... I really, really like what she's written here"?
Brittany Sjogren:
Yes. I actually have it saved right here. It's in Chapter 7, and it's at the end where your friend Jenny is talking about her hurt and she had a game changer, which also helped your perspective. And she said their path to see God's glory is different from mine, talking about other people celebrating their wins, that maybe is something she was struggling with. And I really liked the next paragraph that said, "We are all on a journey. God is with us. God is for us. But how He leads us and where He leads us will always be a bit of a mystery. But what doesn't have to be mysterious is this: we will see God's glory either on this side of eternity or the other side. His glory will not be mocked."
And I just thought of ... in situations where I've really needed to lean on even my trust in the Lord, and that's been broken. We have been going through infertility. I have two children, but we've been trying to expand our family, and we've had two miscarriages recently. And there's been so many times where I'm just like, "Why is this happening?" But I don't want to not celebrate my friends who are in this season. And so that really stuck out to me of just so much is happening that is a mystery, and their story is different than your story. You can celebrate them, and they can celebrate you in different times, but not to ... I can still hurt and be happy for somebody else.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's such a good example. I've walked through so many close relationships of people I dearly love who have struggled with infertility, and their journey has taken so many twists and turns. It is really hard because it's like they're going through this incredibly painful thing, and they're made even more aware of it when their friend suddenly gets pregnant. And yet, yes, I'm so happy for them, but also it can make you kind of tilt your head and go, God, what am I doing wrong? Why are You doing this for them and not me? Where are You?
And so that's why it was really important, as I wrote on the topic of trust, just to say how hard it is when we almost feel betrayed by God. And I know some people are going to hear that and go, "Aah." But I just have to say it like it is. When we don't understand what God allows or when we don't understand where He withholds or seems to be withholding, it can really, really hurt.
I think one of my deepest things that I've been working on, and it relates very much to this, is I like to make assumptions that I know what a good God should do. So it's like, OK, God. I know You're good and You're good to me, and all of that. And so here's what I really believe a good God should do. God, if You will let this happen, then think of how many people are going to praise You and think of how glorious this would be. And so surely a good God would want this kind of outcome. Then I become so attached to that outcome of my own thinking, my own making, that I then want to hold God accountable to doing what I want Him to do.
And then if He doesn't do it, I question, God, are You good? When all along He may have a different plan. And different is hard, but different doesn't have to be not good. Different can still be good. And so I've been challenging myself on that over and over and over. And I asked this question recently at a speaking engagement. It just popped into my head, but I've been ruminating on it.
What would change about my life today if I became absolutely convinced of the goodness of God? It's like, "How would I process things differently? How would I look at things differently? How would I grieve differently if I was absolutely convinced in the goodness of God?" And so I started in my prayer journal writing verses, verse after verse after verse, and then even collecting praise songs that talk about the goodness of God.
Because the more assured I am of that, the more I can tolerate the mystery of God. And the mystery of God is something we all have to leave room for. And so I'm so glad you brought that up. OK, let's talk social media. Social media has allowed amazing things to happen. I'm so grateful for social media; otherwise I would never have found you, and I really enjoy following you. And sweet relationships can be made, but social media can also be hard. So talk about that.
Brittany Sjogren:
I feel like people have expectations of others on social media that the other person doesn't even know that they have. And so there's just so much room for hurt and sadness. I mean, you could follow somebody, and they do something you don't like, and then all of a sudden, you're in a bad mood or triggered from their action, and sometimes it feels like, "Whoa, why are we taking things so personally?" I mean, it's such a beautiful space, but it can be very ... You really have to check yourself when you're on social apps to make sure you're in the right headspace to consume what you might consume.
Lysa TerKeurst:
So good. I remember one time I was doing an interview with my counselor. We were doing an Instagram Live, and of course we've sat in his therapy office for so, so long — years and years and years — and he's helped me so much. But I wanted to talk to him about unrealistic expectations that people put on me, on you, on people they love. So these unrealistic expectations are just super hard.
To set up the interview, I probably said the word “expectations” like 10 times, and then I was like, "OK, Jim, teach us what to do." And he said, "Are you open to a thought?" And anytime he says that in the therapy office, I know he is about to really step on my toes and he is just letting me know he is about to step on my toes. So I was shocked. I was like, He's going to do this right here on an Instagram Live?
And I was like, "OK, Jim, I'm open to a thought." And he said, "Would you ever consider maybe changing the word ‘expectations’ to ‘needs,’ ‘wants’ or ‘desires’? Because expectations are really simmering resentments in disguise.” And I sat there for just a second and thought, OK, you just made a whole lot of things make sense to me. Because it is so true. When people get to a place where they have expectations of another person, that's not just a desire that they have. They have a compelling need and desire and [are] like, "Hey, you need to do this or else."
It's almost like a low-key threat, and it really does set people up to have simmering resentments. Have there been situations where you've experienced on social media you had really good intentions, but then people misunderstood you or at least a person did, and then your heart was broken by some message that maybe they DM'd you or a comment that they left?
Brittany Sjogren:
Yeah. I mean, I think there's definitely been times where I'm thinking I'm sharing something and then all of a sudden it gets taken out of context or it's taken the wrong way. I mean, I am a people pleaser, and so somebody might respond to something and then I see it and I'm like, "Oh my goodness, now that person is mad at me for something I did, but I stand behind what I did, but now they're not happy. How can I help them get happy again? But is that my responsibility?"
There's definitely been times where I feel like my heart has just gotten a ping because I'm like, "Did I mess up?" And then I start questioning everything I'm doing when that's not really necessary.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I relate to that a lot because sometimes my counselor also — I keep quoting him, but he has so many good one-liners — but he said, "Lysa, people are going to be down on what they're not up on." And it's a terrible thing for me to feel like somebody has misunderstood me because I deeply do care and I am trying to be a recovering people pleaser. So I don't know how much of it is that I'm trying to be a people pleaser there or I just genuinely care. I would never want to make somebody feel hurt or to make somebody feel like I had bad intentions or whatever.
So those comments sometimes really get into the depths of my heart and then make me sometimes want to back off of social media because I just think I can't do this. I can't keep opening myself up and run the risk of people misunderstanding me. Do you ever feel that way?
Brittany Sjogren:
I feel that way a lot. In fact, I got to a point where I was like, I really just can't, for my own mental health, share as openly about certain topics that I used to talk about or share a lot with my family or my kids just because I don't want to get in the headspace of worrying about what somebody might say about the way that my child's hair isn't done and I'm a terrible mother because I didn't brush their hair the one second that they saw them across the screen.
And certain things like that. So I feel like I have made some shifts but really to protect myself. And some people don't like that. Some people don't care, but it can definitely be a hard space to navigate.
Lysa TerKeurst: And for me, it can start to feed a skepticism inside of me that I just don't want. I start to get kind of skeptical like, Am I just setting myself up to be super criticized and this isn't worth it? And I don't want to get to that place because I love doing ministry. I love helping people. I love the work that I do, and I know you do too. In the book, I Want to Trust You, but I Don't, I wrote about the fabric of trust and what weaves it together in a relationship.
And it's two things. It's safety and connection. We want to feel safe because we want to know that that person has my best interest in mind, just like I have their best interest in mind. We want to know that they would have our back. We want to know that they would be honest with us. We want to know that when they say something, they're telling the truth and that they mean what they say. And all of those things feed a sense of safety when they're all done correctly, which then makes the connection feel like we can exhale and go, "Ah, I want a connection that's safe. That's what I want."
But when that gets fractured, then some of us have one of two extremes that we bounce to. Some people bounce to, "OK, I want connection. I don't want to lose this relationship. This relationship gives me something; I fear I won't be OK if they take it away from me, so I'm going to have to just lower my need for safety." And then we run the risk of getting really, really hurt because we ignore the red flags and we start excusing away things that soon we're dancing with dysfunction in that relationship just because we're so desperate to keep the connection.
The other extreme is we start to say, "I don't want to take any risk. I'm going to eliminate the risk of this relationship. And so I'm going to prioritize my safety by removing myself and backing away and withdrawing from this relationship." And that's another extreme example, but our goal is to bring those back into equilibrium. We want connections that are safe. And so I spend a lot of time in the book explaining, breaking down, how that can be possible. Would you say that you're the kind of person that would swing to the connection side or to the safety side?
Brittany Sjogren:
I think I would probably swing to the connection side just wanting to ... And I feel like that goes back to just the people pleaser like, "OK, well maybe I need to lower my standard so that we get back on the same page." Or I might spin it in my head to be like, "Well, I am going to think of them more than I'm going to think of myself, so I'm going to put my needs on the back burner because they are saying they need this from me in order to keep this level the same." That's probably where I would go.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's so honest and raw. I swing to the opposite. And so then I find myself withdrawing. And that's not a great response either, because then I can start to hold people at arm's length and maybe I don't even want to communicate why. And then they're wondering what in the world is going on? And communication is crucial. And so when I withdraw from them, I also withdraw my communication, and then that leads to another whole set of issues.
But I really do relate to what you're saying because I've been in relationships before where I was just so desperate to get the relationship back to a peaceful place that I diminished what I needed and I started not expressing my own boundaries. I wouldn't keep boundaries with that person. And so it's so understandable, but it is really, really hard. And so I think one thing I learned when I was in that season is there's this Christian saying ... We all like to say it, "Jesus instructs us to lay down our life for our friends."
And that can sound super noble, but it can also be really unhealthy at times. And I was taking it to an unhealthy extreme. I was working harder on people than they were willing to work on themselves. And because I have a limited capacity, it was pushing me past my limitations, and it was turning me into someone I didn't want to be. And it was making me live a life that just felt like I didn't matter, and I was just giving, giving, giving. It was super, super hard.
So one day I was studying about ... Jesus did model that for us. He did lay down His life for His friends, but He did it to accomplish a high and holy purpose. He didn't do it to enable dysfunctions and bad behavior to continue. And I remember just that one revelation stopped me in my tracks and I thought, OK, I need to get better about recognizing my own need for safety. And so I don't know if that helps or not, but boy did it really help me!
Well, Brittany, it's been such a joy to connect with you today. I'm so excited that you liked the book and that you're going to pass it on to a friend. Any last words that you want to share?
Brittany Sjogren:
There are so many things that I loved. One of the other things that you wrote about in Chapter 10 was, "Instead of focusing on all that was taken from me, maybe I could shift my focus to what this new season could give me." And I thought that's just such an easy sentence for some people to relate to in seasons of change, in seasons where it feels hard for me going through some infertility challenges right now; I look at that, and I'm like, "What could this new season be?"
Or what am I needing to learn right now? I think shifting that mindset and kind of perspective is something that I think will also help people who pick this book up and read it.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's awesome. Well, thank you so much. I look forward to continuing to connect with you on social media, and I hope one day we get to be together. I think we would have a lot of fun.
Brittany Sjogren:
I agree. Thank you, Lysa, so much for having me.
Lysa TerKeurst:
You're so welcome. Thank you, Brittany.
Shae Hill:
Wow, that was such a great conversation. I love when we get to bring new friends onto the podcast. Something that's really sticking with me, Meredith, is what Brittany read out of Chapter 7 of I Want to Trust You, but I Don't, where Lysa writes this, "We are all on a journey. God is with us. God is for us. But how He leads us and where He leads us will always be a bit of a mystery. But what doesn't have to be mysterious is this: we will see God's glory either on this side of eternity or on the other side. His glory will not be mocked. His glory will not be denied. His glory will be seen by those who have given their hearts to Him. We just might travel different paths than others around us."
I just thought that was so beautiful and such a great perspective shift for us to land on today, no matter what we're bringing to this conversation about trust.
Meredith Brock:
Amen. I know sometimes when your life isn't going in the direction you thought it would, it really is hard to see and hard to believe that God will be glorified through it, but He will be. Scripture makes it so clear. So I hope this encouraged you guys today. Be sure to grab that free resource we mentioned earlier at the beginning of the episode called “When the Person Who Hurt You Got Away With It: Three Days to Moving Forward.” And go ahead and preorder the book I Want to Trust You, but I Don't. It's not coming out until October. But when you preorder it, you're going to get the first three chapters of the book right away and a never-before-heard Therapy & Theology podcast miniseries. So visit the link in our show notes to get that free download and preorder that book.
Shae Hill:
I think that's all for today, friends. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.