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I Love Your Stories is a soulful conversation series hosted by artist and creative guide Hava Gurevich, where art meets authenticity. Each episode invites you into an intimate dialogue with artists, makers, and visionaries who are courageously crafting lives rooted in creativity, purpose, and self-expression.
From painters and poets to healers and community builders, these are the stories behind the work—the moments of doubt, discovery, grief, joy, and transformation. Through honest, heart-centred conversations, Hava explores how creativity can be both a healing force and a path to personal truth.
If you’re an artist, a dreamer, or someone drawn to a more intuitive and intentional way of living, this podcast will remind you that your story matters—and that the act of creating is a sacred, revolutionary act.
[MUSIC]
Welcome back to All of Your Stories.
I'm your host, Hava Gurvitch, and today
I'm joined by Jason J. Stevens.
He is the founding principal and design
director of Flutter and
WoW Museum Projects based
here in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
Jason began in creative writing, moved
through sculpture, installation, and
performance, and ultimately
found his way into museums,
where storytelling takes physical form.
For more than two decades, he's been
translating complex ideas into immersive
experiences, shaping exhibitions for
science and art institutions,
and reimagining how
knowledge lives in space.
In our conversation, we explored the
invisible art of interpretation,
the challenge of making something as vast
as the shape of the
universe feel tangible.
And what it means to build a creative
life grounded in daily gratification
rather than chasing a
grand notion of passion.
We also talk about his current
collaboration with Michigan indigenous
communities in St. Ignace, a project that
invites us to reconsider what a museum
can be and who it serves.
This episode is about
curiosity, storytelling, and
the power of designing experiences that
help us see more clearly.
Please help me in
welcoming Jason to this episode.
Now, quick word from our sponsor, and
then we'll get right back to the show.
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And
Welcome back to all of your stories. My
guest today is my
friend Jason J. Stevens.
So Jason is the founding principal and
design director at
Flutter and WOW Museum Projects.
It's a design and fabrication agency
based right here in Ann Arbor,
which is kind of fun because we met
through mutual friends
and then found out that we were working
in the same very niche
world of museum services.
Flutter and WOW is a full service exhibit
design and production
company for museums, parks,
cultural institutions,
and even private clients.
Before Flutter and WOW, Jason worked with
science and art museums,
custom furniture makers, and other
specialty fabrication firms.
And he has also exhibited as a multimedia
installation artist,
including performance
and gallery exhibition.
And let's see, you also teach courses in
exhibit environmental design at the
University of Michigan
and at the Lawrence Technical University,
Technological University.
And you've written about the history and
practice of exhibit design.
Jason, it's a pleasure. Welcome.
I think for a lot of
listeners, what is exhibit design?
It's something that if you're not part of
that world, like you don't even realize
there's a whole back end to when you go
to see an exhibition.
So I definitely want to get into that.
But before we do, do you want to just
talk a little bit about yourself, your
background, and how you got to
where you got, where you are?
Yeah, sure.
My father ran a design company, Stevens
Design Service, doing automotive design,
like tool and die stuff.
But when I told him that I was an exhibit
designer, he had no idea
what I was talking about.
And as I started to explain it, he said,
quote unquote, "I guess somebody does
have to do that, huh?"
And then it's interesting how people have
misconceptions even from
there about what it is.
So yeah, I'm happy to talk about that and
shed light on our little niche field.
How I got to where I got.
I am like, as of this moment, plus or
minus a week, I have been
self-employed for 20 years.
So I've actually, I'm a nostalgic person
by nature, so a little opportunity like
this naturally snaps me into a lot of
reflection and thinking
about how things have been.
And if I could go back in time, whoop,
advice that I would give younger Jay.
It's not a ton. I mean, in so many ways,
it sounds like a hackney
phrase, but it's the journey.
And I wouldn't, with ups and downs, and I
wouldn't want it any other way.
And I have definitely fallen on my face
at times, but in every case, it's a
learning moment and hopefully makes me a
little smarter and a
little more resilient.
Absolutely. It always does. Sometimes it
takes a decade or two to realize how a
stumble caused a
success, but it always does.
That's just the nature of
things. Did you study art? What?
I enrolled in the art program, and when
my parents saw my first report card, they
gave me an ultimatum.
You can change your major, you can move
back home. You can change your major to
something more
practical or move back home.
And that caused me to bounce around a
bit. I went into commercial art for a
minute, but I realized I broke it down
and framed it for myself.
And this is no slam against, I have
against commercial artists. I have
friends who do work commercially, and
certainly there's a
lot more subtlety to it.
I'm talking about Jason at age 19,
looking at the world and saying, "I don't
want my job to be selling
people things they don't need."
So I'm not going to do commercial art.
Anyway, I bounced around a lot of majors.
I landed on creative writing.
I don't know if my parents just gave up
or they actually thought that was a
pragmatic major, but I ended up with a
creative writing degree.
I graduated and knew that I was not going
to be my generation's Jack Kerouac as
much as I wished I could be.
I went to work for a sculptor right away,
a friend of mine, and it turned out that
she was working for an exhibit designer
making models of Michigan Prairie flowers
at 10 times their actual size.
I have purple cone flowers, which are
really fun because if you know purple
cone flowers, they get
really ratty really quickly.
So it was a job of making these beautiful
flowers and then messing
them up so they looked real.
So it's been exhibits or exhibit adjacent
in many ways ever since then.
What's your favorite part
about designing exhibits?
I mean, a big part of the job and the
part that never gets boring is taking
complicated ideas and subjects.
And this goes across. We do work for art,
science, history,
institutions, which at Children's Museum.
So it's a really wide gamut. But in just
about every case, it's taking something
that we assume people don't
know about or are unfamiliar with
and trying to impart a little bit of
knowledge or experience.
And I mean, without second guessing what
visitors might already know, because of
course visitors is everybody and
everybody has their own background.
But trying to find ways of providing
something for everybody, it's kind of
like the impossible
challenge, but it's a thrill.
And that's essentially that word
interpretation comes up a lot.
Yeah. We're talking about an experience.
You're building an experience. Can you
give us more specific example?
I was just giving a presentation to some
students at the University of Michigan.
So I had to share this project we did 11
years ago called Shapes of the Universe.
And it was a physics exhibition, in part
inspired by a researcher at the
University, a woman whose name escapes me
at the moment, but she's famous in the
world of gravitational waves.
Which right there, like, what's a
gravitational wave?
Yeah. Am I feeling it?
And everything, it was called Shapes of
the Universe because physicists who are
working on this cosmological scale don't
know what the shape of the universe is.
And even that is like, is that a
legitimate question? What are we talking
about? Isn't it just like planets and
stars out into infinity?
And it turns out, no. And since Einstein
came up with this theory of relativity,
there's this idea that gravity is a force
that bends space time, bends space time,
which is space and time.
And they're like one thing. It's all
stuff that's way up. I don't know how
people work in that
world every day, but they do.
So we had to figure out ways to make that
subject accessible to
the public and interesting.
So we, I mean, it turns out that subject
for as crazy and conceptual and abstract
as it is, lend itself to some physical
things that we could do, like actual
plaster molds of different potential
shapes of the universe.
So that you could show that if the
universe is shaped like a globe, a
straight line is actually what appears to
us to be a curved line.
How often when you start a new project or
you're in discussion with a new client,
do you have to do like
some serious background study?
Yeah.
Because you're like an
amateur physicist now.
Oh yeah. I mean, that's one of the best
things about it. That's, you know, some
context. I was that child who spent a lot
of time in his bedroom reading and
writing and drawing and world building
and so interested in so many things that
it worried me in my late teens about what
I could be when I grew up because I
didn't have a specific thing.
And so I've managed to find a little
place for myself that nurtures that.
Yeah.
And I often tell people is this, I think
I am blessed with a kind of curiosity
where a museum in Alaska came and asked
me to help them with some
exhibits about Alaskan aviation.
And I was like, yeah, sure. And then what
I don't care about airplanes or any of
that stuff. It turns out it's
fascinating. The history of Alaskan
aviation is so fascinating. I'm surprised
there are more Hollywood movies about it.
I think about the TV
show Northern Exposure.
That's what it is. But, you know, a
hundred years ago, it was these crackpot
people who didn't have a place in regular
society and found a place flying
airplanes through snowy mountains and all
kinds of crazy adventures.
This part of your work that you
described, that kind of taking these
concepts and interpreting them and how
fun it is to learn these new things.
One thing that I love to say about why
I'm so lucky to be an artist is that I
get to approach every single subject that
interests me, whether it's like
evolution, botany, marine
biology, all of these things.
I can go as deep as I want to go, but I
don't have to write a thesis. I don't
have to even be completely scientifically
accurate or even accurate at all. I can
be, you know, it is all interpretation.
It's like I'm not a scientist. I just
play one in my studio.
Same here. I'll say in contrast to you,
one of the drawbacks is that I might come
across a book in the bookstore that I
find really interesting, but I can't pick
it up because the subject that I'm
studying is already
laid out for me in my work.
If I've got Alaska Aviation on my table,
I'm kind of all about Alaska Aviation. So
I've sacrificed that free will to choose
what I research to this kind of work.
But like I said, whatever my flavor of
curiosity is, I get into these topics
regardless and I don't ever get tired of
them. Sometimes the same ones come up and
it's like, "Woo, I love
this. Let's go again."
So I'm going back to what you said before
that you were like you dismissed
commercial art. And for me, like the
definition of commercial art is that you
are someone else
paying you to do something.
So I am a commercial artist.
To some degree, yes. And I mean that in
the most positive way. What I'm curious
about is like, do you also have like a
creative outlet that is not dictated by
somebody's... What is it?
A lot of music.
There's a drum kit behind those doors
behind me and I have a guitar and a bass.
I've been playing music since I was a
kid. I don't play with anybody right now,
but I pick up an instrument just about
every day and love it.
And music in general. I'm a big music
fan. So there have definitely been
moments where I feel like I'm
caged in by the work that I do.
It happens when a client doesn't like
something that you've put a lot of heart
and soul into and they turn it down and
then it's like, "Oh, I hate this job."
What are you most
passionate about right now?
I had this... One thing is I'm trying to
avoid the word "passion" because I have a
teenage daughter who's worried that she
can't find out what her passion is.
It feels like it's a necessity to
identify a passion so she can know what
she's going to be when she grows up.
And I don't have to tell you, probably
most of your listeners, that that's not
really the right frame of
mind when you're a teenage.
But I think a lot of social media and
stuff, our culture is full of people
saying, "Find your passion."
So let me ask you in another way.
Yeah, sure.
Actually, let me ask you first, what
advice would you give
to 19-year-old Jason?
Well, I mean, again, I don't want to
sound hackneyed, but number one, just
don't worry about it, Jason.
The stuff I worried about at age 19,
probably not different from what a lot of
people at that age are worrying about.
How people perceive you or whether or not
you're authentic enough.
I realized I wasn't my generation's Jack
Kerouac, but that's not really the
framing you should have
after you get a writing degree.
It's not about being your
generation's Jack Kerouac.
It's just about doing what you enjoy,
doing your passion,
following your passion.
I wonder if Jack Kerouac knew that he was
his generation's Jack
Kerouac. Probably not.
He was just doing what he was doing.
That's right.
That's the only way you can, because
that's the only way to stay authentic.
That's right.
Yeah, so there's a little bit of that,
wishing that I hadn't wasted as much
mental energy as I had about a lot of
that kind of feeling like I wasn't
authentic or the genuine stuff.
But at age 19, literally nobody at my
current age is expecting a 19-year-old to
be that fully formed artist.
It's part of the journey.
We have to be patient with ourselves at
that age. It's very hard to be patient.
You think you know everything, and yet
you don't have answers.
That's right, and still don't.
That's another thing. You
won't ever reach a point.
There's no plateau.
I've often said that my theme song is
"The Bear Went Over the
Mountain." Do you know that song?
The bear went over the mountain, the bear
went over the mountain, the bear went
over the mountain to
see what he could see.
And all that he could see, and all that
he could see, and all that he could see
is the other side of the mountain, the
other side of the mountain.
In fact, I have height in mountains where
I drive my fellow hikers crazy because I
want to see what's
over the next little hill.
Surprise! It's the
other side of the hill.
You never reach a point where it's like,
"Ah, this is the place."
It's all about the journey.
It's all about the journey.
So you teach. You teach exhibit design?
Oh, you taught?
Yeah. At Lawrence Tech, I taught exhibit
design in their architecture department,
which was a lot of fun.
And I've taught some classes in museum
studies at the University of Michigan.
And what would you say? What kind of
advice do you give students?
What is the thing that you want them to
come away with that now they
know or now they understand?
I'm glad you're asking that because that
kind of ties back to your last few
questions to my answer to it.
Again, something that's kind of in my
mind because of teenage daughter, because
I'm reflecting on 20 years of being
independent from an employer.
One of the things I kind of want to
redirect my daughter's mind from the idea
of stressing about what your passion is,
thinking more about the kinds of
activities that you are comfortable
engaging in and that you get
gratification no matter how
small that gratification is.
So if for you sitting in a studio and
painting and losing yourself in applying
colors to a canvas gives you that comfort
and that gratification, that's a really
good thing to identify.
I don't think that means you therefore
have to be a painter. I think there are a
lot of activities that can
satisfy that that urge in you.
An example I like to give a spreadsheet
is the opposite of painting.
Spreadsheets because people hear
spreadsheets they think accountants or
whatever they think it's like a boring
spreadsheet is the picture of boredom.
But I actually get kind of excited and
have a lot of fun working with
spreadsheets. I really like like changing
a number here and watching all these
other numbers change as I...
Not like I want to spend all my life
doing it, but identifying that that is an
activity that I'm comfortable in and that
I get a little gratification out of.
I now work a job and as a designer I'm in
spreadsheets as often as
I'm using a pencil on paper.
So that clicks, that works. Whether or
not it's designer or whatever you're
doing like identifying
those kinds of tasks.
Is it better than trying
to figure out a passion?
I've not encountered yet anyone that had
so much baggage attached to that word.
It's interesting because I think every
word that could be so completely neutral
for some people or like really exciting
for someone else and has...
It can come with baggage, it can come
with like all kinds of interpretations.
But I get it and I think you're
absolutely right that as young people who
are starting out in the world and there's
a lot of pressure to kind of like figure
out things that you have no way of
knowing. Your brain
is still being formed.
I should say, Hava, that I've used the
word passion a lot and I think that I am
somebody who has managed to find a way to
pursue their passion.
What's next for Jason? Is there like an
upcoming project you're excited about?
We're working with Michigan indigenous
folks right now on a new museum that's
being built up in St. Ignace
on the other side of the bridge.
It's definitely a project that has its
challenges as everyone does.
But it's incredible because everybody
involved is interested in
redefining what a museum is.
And the people in charge are not native
folks but they very much want this museum
to be native driven.
So part of the challenge for me is it's
kind of upended our typical process.
I mean I always think of us as being
servants to our clients.
We're providing a service.
But the character of this one is very
different. We're really listening. A lot
of it is just us listening, which you can
always do more of on every project.
I mean I can't wait to see how it
develops. It's still very amorphous and
we're talking a lot about
history and a lot about beliefs.
And it's a people who have suffered a
lot, a lot, a lot, a lot.
And that poses some challenges. It's not
like they just want to open the book and
let us take whatever we want and put...
That's already been done. There's some
suspicion about how that happens.
As a non-native person, it's a lot of
building trust and providing myself as a
servant to help do the parts that I know
how to do and serving their vision.
So it's super interesting. And another...
I mean it just never ends.
Every project that comes up offers these
opportunities for me to grow in different
ways that I hadn't
realized I'm ready to grow in.
When you say redefined a museum, what a
museum can be, can you
explain any part of that?
Well, I mean...
What's a typical museum? What's the norm?
There is no norm. But there is, in this
case, the answer to that question is some
beaded moccasins in a glass case on a
pedestal with a label that says,
"These moccasins were made by native
people," and such and such.
One concept that they've been laying on
us that is blowing my mind and...
Is that... And I'm going to hack a little
bit here and just stick
with the moccasin example.
When a pair of moccasins are made,
they're being made from materials that
have their own spirit to them.
And there's a lot of respect given to
those spirits in the crafting. It's a
collaboration between those spirits and
the human that is the agent
making the moccasins appear.
And then the purpose for that object
coming into existence is to protect the
bottom of the feet and to keep the feet
warm, various other things that shoes do.
It is not the purpose of that object, and
the reason the spirits and the humans are
collaborating is not to create something
that then gets put in a glass case and
looked at for the rest of time.
That's like putting
these things into jail.
So for me, somebody has been doing this
for decades and put so many objects in
jail of suddenly realizing all the
injustice that I've perpetrated by taking
old things that have their own spirit and
their own purpose in this world and
putting them in a glass
box for people to look at.
So what does that mean for a museum,
which is the expectation as we're going
to the Native American Museum, we're
going to see some
moccasins in a glass case.
We want these moccasins.
So one of the things we're doing is we're
thinking about the exhibit from the
moccasins point of view.
It's so beautiful to
me to have to think of.
You're blowing my mind too here, Lee.
Right?
How do the moccasins want to be displayed
and what do they want
to share with everybody?
And how can the moccasins feel good about
being in this place and
not being on people's feet?
I am never going to look at
a museum the same way again.
Especially like a natural history museum
where real artifacts that used to be like
active participants in somebody's life.
And I don't have the answers to that, but
it's super provocation.
As a designer, it's like a very, very
welcome twist on what I usually do.
Yeah, this is a very subjective question.
So for you personally, looking back at
what you've done, the museums you've
worked with, the artists you've
apprenticed with, the exhibitions you've
created, the company that you started,
the projects you're working on, and your
music and everything, what is your
definition of success right now and how
has it changed over time for you?
A really keen question and something I
have been reflecting
on again just recently.
So one phenomenon that I've witnessed
happen time and again in my career is for
us, it's designing and building these
experiences and these exhibits.
It's project-based and our
deadlines are always very hard.
I often say Apple Computer tells you that
they're releasing the new iPhone in
January and then come January they're
like, "Actually, it's
delayed until February."
Apple Computer, the biggest company on
Earth, can push their deadlines back. We
don't ever have that luxury.
And so we're working, working, working,
working. It's often a lot
getting us to that opening date.
And then opening comes and we're
exhausted and we don't even necessarily
go to the opening party.
And then the next day we get up and we
start working on the next project.
And it's not good. We're missing that
gratification part. We're
not getting rich on this.
So we really owe it to ourselves to stand
back every once in a while and appreciate
the work that we've done.
And we're like behind the scenes people.
We're not celebrated at
the big opening or anything.
So to do the work with the expectation
that people are going to say, "You do
amazing work," doesn't get you the
gratification you need to keep going.
So you really have to find it in here.
And we actually need it every day.
So, you know, I keep... Sometimes I'm up
early enough that I see the sunrise.
And again, it's a little hackney, but
every sunrise is
amazing. It's like jaw-dropping.
And it happens every day. But if you're
awake and you witness it and you give
yourself a moment to witness it and take
it in what you're
witnessing, it's awesome.
And so the answer to your question, I
think, right now, for me, is that success
is actually finding daily gratification
in life and in the work
that you do, wherever that is.
Whether it's through your passion or
because you observe a beautiful sunrise.
Giving yourself, finding that space. So
you could be successful at a very young
age if you can find
that. And it ain't easy.
I can talk about it for another half hour
if you want. It doesn't mean
tomorrow I'm going to find it.
I love that. I love that. I want to close
another loop. You mentioned that you
ended up doing creative
writing as your degree.
And creative writing is storytelling,
really. It's storytelling.
And what you do now is somebody comes to
you with some ideas, some vague concepts
of what they want, and you interpret them
visually, experientially.
You turn those concepts into
storytelling. Do you see that connection?
Yes, very much so. I am a believer that
the human mind platonically gravitates
towards story. That it's a form.
In fact, talking about my own biography
in my 20s, looking forward, I was not
charting a path. But now I look back and
it's as though I charted a path.
I can tell my story as though it was a
straight line from there to here, even
though it was far from it. It was the
curviest line possible.
So the story serves some kind of purpose,
whether it's completing the loop on my
own spirit and feeling
like my purpose is genuine.
I don't necessarily believe we all have a
purpose. I don't think I buy into that so
much. But I do buy in that the story is
real in as much as it serves us to help
define a purpose out of this big chaos of
stuff that we're swimming in every day.
So I'm a big believer in story. And then,
yeah, in terms of the work, that is part
of this is good. It brings us full
circle. All these different people that
are coming to these exhibits. And I can't
even know if this
person is a moccasin expert.
And we're talking down to them about
something they know so well. And then
this other person who's never even heard
the word moccasin before, like, how do we
create an exhibit for those two people
and everyone in between?
Often the answer is story. We all like
the story. Oh, when we do art exhibits,
people love the story of the artist over
and over again. This
is proven, you know, it.
So artists often get told you need to
know your story and where you come from.
And that can be kind of oppressive, but
can lift that oppression and just
recognize that it's it's again, it's kind
of a platonic form that
people very easily click into.
It's a it's a tool that it's there and
there's no shame about it. It's how the
Bible. So it's a good.
I like to say that reality is the story
our brain tells us. So yeah, it's all a
story. There's nothing out
here. It's all in there. Yeah.
Yeah, agreed. 100 percent.
I you know, actually, as we're talking as
you were talking about the success and
being behind the scenes like your
your industry, like your niche in this
museum world is to build sets. It's the
thing that happens before the show opens
to the public. By the time the exhibition
is live and the crowds are there and the
stories are told, you're gone. You're
doing something else.
And so you don't you're not the one that
gets celebrated and so on. And in my
case, it's traveling exhibitions, putting
together photography
exhibitions that go to museums.
And it's it's a similar thing most of the
time where it's kind of like behind the
scenes once just facilitating somebody
here. Person A has this body of work and
this museum wants this body of work.
And my job is to bring it to them. That's
that's that's usually it. I mean, there's
also to some degree finding the people
with the body of work to begin with and
finding the people, the museums.
So all of those things. And sometimes it
does. It would start to feel like I might
as well be selling vacuum cleaners
because it's a sales job after work after
all. And then every once in a while I get
I get a glimpse of what we do and it
makes the whole world better.
And like examples of like there was
there's a small small museum in Columbus,
Ohio. It's like part of a small
university and they wanted to bring this
vintage like Ansel Adams exhibition to to
their little museum,
to their little town.
They had to raise a lot of money for
this. I had to talk to the collector and,
you know, work out like some discount to
make it work like I had to work with
them. It was it was it was a lot. I'm
still friends with the curator because we
were on the phone a lot making it work.
But she said that opening night, the
mayor came to the opening. Not only that,
they started this like that Friday when
they had the opening, all the other
galleries and it's in like sort of
cultural centers and towns stayed open
late and everything kind of culminated in
this like the exhibition.
And even though like my name was probably
not mentioned, nobody knew that nobody
knew who I was and, you know, what role
everybody was celebrating the curator
that she made it happen. But I knew and,
you know, and the letter that she sent me
and kind of like this.
You made this happen for us kind of
thing. And, you know, and everyone's know
I would get letters like that. Like we,
you know, the exhibition closed. This is
the last day. It's five o'clock and the
show got written up in the paper.
People who lived in the town were calling
to ask for directions because they never
even knew that this little university had
a gallery. And, you know, on the last
day, it's like four, four fifty five and
the gallery is still full.
Like that kind of experience. And there's
this own like sense of success there. And
it makes me think about when I was in
grad school and in central Illinois. And
we were what two and a half hours from
Chicago, but it might as well been like a
full days because like it was too far
when you're a grad student.
And but we had we had this gallery
curator who he every year he would blow
like the entire gallery's budget on like
one big exhibition. And it was it was the
highlight. It was culture brought to us
to this little town in
the middle of nowhere.
And and so I always think about that.
Like, yes, I'm just the salesperson, but
I'm also facilitating
something for like so many people.
And I think that's, you know, and
especially like thinking about this, this
new exhibition you're building and the
potential there to educate and inspire
and it will reverberate for generations.
Yeah, it's an interesting
framing you're giving it.
It's, it's sometimes hard when you're in
it to recognize that there's a whole lot
of people out there who rarely set foot
in a museum or in an art gallery.
I had an experience as an artist once
where I was outside of the gallery
installing a speaker and an audio speaker
for for my own art and two people were
walking by and one said to the other.
Hey, well, we go to the art gallery feel
real stupid and the other one was like,
yeah, it's like such an
affecting moment like that is.
I want to combat that so bad. There's no
reason to feel stupid in the art gallery
at all. You don't have to know anything
you raid don't be you can be a baby.
Yes, it better. And and that's it like
providing that kind of it's like a
doorway to other worlds. It really is no
matter where you are, who you are.
There's a potential to go someplace else.
That's kind of that's kind of the
business that we're in trip for people
someplace else with very small budgets.
Jason, thank you so much for this really,
really inspiring conversation. Good luck.
I'm I'm so excited to and I will go visit
because I have a really good friends who
lives in St. Ignace and I will take it
opportunity to visit him
and go go see the exhibit.
Yeah. Yeah. Sounds
good. Thanks. Thank you.
Thanks again for tuning in. That's our
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