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Telling the stories of startup founders and creators and their unique journey. Each episode features actionable tips, practical advice and inspirational insight.
Greg Moran (00:15.23)
Well, we're off to a real good start with this. So we're 12 seconds into the recording, but so welcome. Welcome back to the Founders Journey podcast. So good to be back. And our guest today is a legend in my world. So we'll just start out with that. So if you've spent any time with me, he's making a funny face about this. So if you spend any time with me, you've heard, and we've been out, you've heard stories about the legendary Michael Wright.
And that's our guest today. So Michael is with us. He is the managing partner at a brand new search firm. We're going to get into that kind of journey part of this at called Taligence, which is the executive search firm located up in San Antone Springs, New York. Michael, before that was the head of global talent acquisition for Group M, which is part of WPP, which is, I think, Michael, what the largest ad agency in the world now, I think, right? Somewhere up there.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (01:12.503)
We have some scale more than 100 ,000 people. Yeah.
Greg Moran (01:18.034)
Crazy. So Michael's our guest today. We're going to be getting into not only his own founder's journey, but we're also going to be getting into the area where Michael really focuses, intelligence really focuses on building high quality executive teams and executive search. So Michael, welcome to the podcast. Oh, and hey, Peter, I forgot to say hi to you too.
Peter Dean (01:39.694)
I've heard about all these cool stories about you guys hanging out, so I figured I'd just be hanging out with you today. And I'm really excited about it. I really am.
Greg Moran (01:44.286)
Hahahaha!
Greg Moran (01:49.95)
And he's got the coolest glasses, definitely, of the three of us on this call.
So Michael, welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you here.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (02:00.661)
honoured. I am literally honoured to be here. You know, there's only one legend in where I come from, and that's Robin Hood, because I was born in Nottingham. And that's the only thing Nottingham's famous for. So if I can be the second legend of Nottingham, then I'm good with that, Greg. I'm a humble man, but I will make this one exception and I will accept the title. Thank you.
Peter Dean (02:10.592)
That's right.
Greg Moran (02:23.678)
Okay.
Greg Moran (02:28.99)
I think this is a great place to start. I think being the second most famous person from Nottingham is actually pretty good. That's a pretty extraordinary badge to wear. It really...
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (02:41.111)
I'll put it, oh, it's my new LinkedIn headline, Greg. I'll put it on my LinkedIn.
Peter Dean (02:44.642)
It's perfect.
Greg Moran (02:44.822)
Second most famous man in Nottingham. Love it. So, okay, so let's start kind of, you've really been starting this kind of journey on your own of being a founder. So talk about what you're doing before, what led you into starting Taligence? What led you up from living in Beijing and Singapore and London and every other place you've lived around the world to Saratoga Springs, New York?
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (03:13.559)
Okay, so I'll try and do the quick, really quick version of the resume. So I think one thing that I share with a lot of other famous founders is like being asked to leave school at an early age or deciding to leave. So we have this word called expelled. It's a very, it's got a very profound and deep negative meaning. And I was actually asked to leave the educational establishment I always belonged to in a small town called Kimberley around about.
Greg Moran (03:32.414)
Hahaha
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (03:43.063)
like 14, 15 years old, I was a terrible distraction for my sort of fellow students. And I was just a pain in the ass for the teachers. And so I completely understand why I was asked to not participate anymore in that system. So, you know, when you enter the workforce, or, you know, when you enter the world with with no qualifications, it's a challenge. So I spent my early career.
Greg Moran (04:00.22)
Uh -uh.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (04:10.839)
in a range of factory and warehouse type work. I baked bread at a quietly industrial scale, worked in soda pop factories and like visions of hell. I mean, like really did some of that sort of stuff. I found my way into a direct marketing company where I was basically my job was to sit and try not to fall asleep by giant printing machines that were throwing up junk mail in the hundreds of thousands. And then through that, um,
Through that, I managed to eventually land a job in sales, which felt like a better fit. And then quite quickly pivoted to recruiting, like after basically about a year of doing that. Actually, the good story about that is the recruiter that hired me for the sales job out of the warehouse subsequently poached me to be the recruiter. Like, so took me out of her client. I was basically working in the same place as her for a while. I spent like some of the...
best memories I have actually of doing agency recruiting were in that sort of year 2000, 2001, where obviously we had the sort of blow up of the internet in the US and, and, and in the UK, that was true as well. And, you know, but I wasn't easily managed, I think in that, in that world. So it was, it was not a fit for me to be managed. And I decided I wanted to go alone. So I set my first company up in 2001, grew it.
for about four or five years in the UK. We got it into a really good place and healthy profits and revenue. I was getting a bit bored. I read a book on China and I had no connection to the place, but it struck me that the service business that I was in was commoditizing already in the UK. And I wanted to obviously maximize the value of the service. And I thought what better place to do that than a
giant emerging market. And that's why I picked China. So that packed about after a year of gruesome bureaucracy, that you could, you know, I could write a whole book on how hard it is to set up a legitimate business in China. You know, grew that business from from roughly 2006 to 2011 liquidated the UK business, unfortunately, that business did not survive.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (06:40.119)
because we were factoring, which is something I will never ever do again. You have to be cash flow is king, I think, with small businesses. We fell victim to getting greedy and factoring, which was part of the reason we had to shut down the UK business. And then luckily I was able to sell the China business, which sort of gave me enough money to feed myself for long enough to be recruited then into my first corporate job. So I was relocated from Beijing to Singapore.
in 2011, it was like, I was amazed that they were willing to take a chance on me, given that my background was purely entrepreneurial, pretty much. And I was expecting to do another entrepreneurial thing. But it was like, there was the idea of spending somebody else's money was just too appealing. And so consequently, you know, I also, I'd sort of grown up quite a bit, you know, by then, and I wanted to, I wanted to work with other adults.
Peter Dean (07:19.148)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Moran (07:29.918)
Ha ha ha!
Peter Dean (07:32.014)
That is
Peter Dean (07:35.63)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Moran (07:36.094)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (07:39.127)
And, you know, it was really important to me to sort of see how businesses work from the inside. Having been a consultant for a good while, you know, 11 years as an advisor and consultant. So I spent the several years then growing the Group M business in Singapore. So we went from 2300 to about 7000 people. When I left, we were active in all
markets in the region. So we had 13 countries that we were in and I was recruiting CEOs and CFOs and CROs in all of those different markets. So really humbled me to the diversity of the region and so different to mainland China. We're still doing a lot of business though in China. I think that was one of the reasons they hired me. So sort of...
saw how corporations works, complicated ones with a hold co brand sort of structure. Super, super interesting, super interesting business domain area. You know, media has sort of become as important as the creative message, the channel that it's in, in sort of 10, 15 years. And I was just in such a wonderful job. I was blessed with having some great.
Peter Dean (08:45.486)
Eh.
Greg Moran (08:49.182)
Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (08:59.043)
leaders that I was working for and reporting to, so I got very lucky in that regard. But I was kind of got into a comfort zone where I was looking for something different. And that's when I was approached by Grab, who are basically the Southeast Asian version of Uber, for those people that are watching. I'm sure most of your viewers are US, but some global. So Grab is the is the basically a transportation app.
that multimodal transportation and they wanted to double the company in size in a year, which we did successfully as well as grow a team of engineers, mostly hiring from FANG companies. So we built an engineering workforce. You know, we went from like sort of 60 to 400 top software engineers in a year, which was, which was bonkers. And then I returned to WPP.
Greg Moran (09:46.94)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (09:55.191)
Group M, they hired me to fulfill a lifelong dream, which was to live and work in America. So, you know, next thing I know, I've left Grav and I'm in Brooklyn overpaying for rent and trying to figure out where to put all my Vietnamese furniture, which we'd foolishly shipped like a full container full of stuff. So, yeah, and I took on a North America.
Peter Dean (10:08.718)
Ha ha.
Greg Moran (10:13.598)
You
Peter Dean (10:16.334)
to Brooklyn.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (10:22.527)
North America leadership role in talent acquisition. Again, we grew the company substantially across the different operating businesses under Group M. We grew our market position as well against the competition. I think we were fiercely fighting them and succeeded during that time. I got then promoted into a global role around the time COVID hit. So I was global head of TA for Group M.
And then my last position was actually super interesting. It was in WPP. So I moved out of Group M and into the ultimate hold co, which is WPP. And they wanted me to take on a role that maximized the opportunity to with the flex workforce. So basically all non -perm hires, which there were more than 10 ,000 globally, as well as be the innovation, TA innovation person. So in that role, I also
fostered better ways of working as well as introduced different tools and technologies. As you know, Greg, I'm obsessively interested in cutting down time and making things a better quality through use of tools. So yeah, that was my last role. But I was seeking a different lifestyle. And so a big part of my choice and decision to quit WPP,
Greg Moran (11:34.224)
Yep.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (11:49.015)
was really to return to a situation where I have full control, freedom, flexibility, you know, and I can sort of carve my own path without worrying about how sustainable, you know, the job is. At the end of the day, if you're in a big professional services firm and your time is not being billed, you're always at risk, right, of irrelevance, you're overhead. And you know, I was like,
Greg Moran (12:12.382)
Your overhead. Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (12:18.423)
I'm very grateful that I've been supported in being an overhead for so many years. But at the end of the day, I just wanted something a little bit more hands on, back to sales and selling, which I of course love as all entrepreneurs need to. And so yeah, now I find myself having launched intelligence in November, very much focused on the content strategy.
very interested in moving away from my roots in advertising because I was previously serving tech exclusively in my agency, in my previous recruiting firm. So far I feel I have to keep pinching myself because I feel like I'm really in a honeymoon period at the moment where everything is just groovy and it's just that I'm sort of euphoric about the feeling, returning to a feeling of control.
Greg Moran (12:49.342)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (13:14.359)
master of my own destiny, and as well as an opportunity to partner with my wife. So I've been married for 10 years. As you probably know, there's a tradition in Asia of family business, right? And so we've both been surprised as to how well that's going so far. Of course, you know.
Greg Moran (13:28.55)
Yep.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (13:39.543)
You know, we know that things can be difficult when you decide to go that route, but that's been another like really joyful experience so far. So yeah, we're loving it. We've signed up some really interesting customers in the decentralized finance and world of blockchain. I think there's, you know, so there's constant learning as well from that and just having a great time as well as getting a chance to
Peter Dean (14:05.964)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (14:09.001)
reconnect with you, Greg, because I was always, you know, just too busy in that gigantic corporation really to, and so I think the final thing I'll say on why I started the business is I, you know, I want to, I want to be a better friend to people. I want to be a, I want to be a better son. I want to be a better uncle. Um, and I, when you're in that corporate world of just doing the grind, not saying entrepreneurship is easier, but you just have to focus in a, in and so.
Greg Moran (14:32.414)
Yeah.
Peter Dean (14:33.686)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (14:37.761)
That's at the expense of some human relationships. So I'm addressing that now.
Peter Dean (14:43.278)
So Michael, some of that, like you talked about like having like control, is that like creativity? And as an entrepreneur, creativity isn't always like that I, you know, it's not like add creative creativity. It's your ability to kind of design or how you operate or how your new system works versus maybe being put into some bigger machine that you have to kind of comply with some what's going on. Is that something that's?
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (15:12.119)
Yeah, I mean, exactly. I'm someone, Peter, that really craves variety and some of the programs that, you know, I'm involved, I was involved in at WPP at the later stage. These are three, five year transformations, you know, so once you're committed, it's like no distractions now. You know, whilst they gave me that innovation role, so that also, you know, at least theoretically, I had a chance to expose myself to a lot more variety. The truth was,
Peter Dean (15:16.652)
Yeah.
Greg Moran (15:29.308)
Right.
Peter Dean (15:29.646)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Greg Moran (15:31.868)
Yeah.
Peter Dean (15:38.678)
Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (15:41.271)
you know, that was largely procurement led exercises. It wasn't like, um, as fast and loose as I would have liked. So, so now I sort of, I get up each day and I'm able to decide what to prioritize. And sometimes I'll change my mind halfway through the day and that's fine. Whereas, you know, in the large corporation, it's just like grinding.
Peter Dean (15:43.798)
Mm -hmm.
Peter Dean (15:49.166)
Yeah.
Peter Dean (16:01.998)
Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting because you had the opportunity to go from starting in that environment, then going into another environment where it was fulfilling because you had all of this stuff that you could do now at the bigger entity. And then now you're going back to what you originally did, where you have all this creativity in how you design your day and what you do and what your priority is. And that's one of the things that most of us entrepreneurs love.
even though we make a lot of mistakes. Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (16:32.279)
Yes. I will say in defense of WPP, you know, they are the world's most creative business. Like literally they are, that's what they do. It wasn't they were like restricting me from doing that. It was just the reality of the job, you know, wasn't like, I wasn't, yeah.
Greg Moran (16:37.406)
Speak for yourself, man. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
Peter Dean (16:39.95)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Peter Dean (16:50.318)
Yeah, you can't when it's just that big. It's like, you have to kind of be in lockstep with a lot of people, you know.
Greg Moran (16:51.068)
Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (16:59.381)
and functional functions, yeah.
Greg Moran (17:00.222)
So.
Peter Dean (17:01.462)
Yeah.
Greg Moran (17:02.622)
Absolutely. So just changing gears for a second, right? So your experience obviously as founder, then you were in the corporate world, now founder again, but all the while, what you have been one of the best out there at is recruiting these large teams, recruiting, like working with companies that are getting to scale, whether it's at the size of group M or whether it's at the, you know, at the grand size or something like that. Talk about that experience. What did the...
Peter Dean (17:19.246)
Yeah.
Greg Moran (17:31.966)
You know, because a lot of the listeners of this today are starting to hit that curve, right? Maybe, you know, maybe the company started with, you know, five people in the closet, but now it's going up, you know, now they're starting to hire and now they're starting potentially by the dozens or potentially by the hundreds. Talk about your experience with that. What are the mistakes that you see people make? What are the things that they really should be looking out for when they start to build, when they start to hit scale and start to hire at?
at volume like that.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (18:03.575)
So yeah, I mean, just most people, I guess, many people watching won't understand like who is Group M or WPP even. So it's important to let your listeners, your audience know, Greg, that Group M is a company of companies. There are multiple operating entities and we were very acquisitive during the time that I was there as well. So we'd be buying companies of 200 people. And so...
Greg Moran (18:29.98)
Right.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (18:30.135)
My experience is not like just working for one company, like a, I guess, like a L 'Oreal or, you know, whatever. It's like I was the head of TA for like all of these companies. I've witnessed different, you know, all kinds of sort of different growth stages of businesses and different needs. I will say like, if I could boil it down to just one thing that people get wrong when they're hiring executives, that is regardless of...
Peter Dean (18:36.524)
Mm.
Greg Moran (18:42.224)
Right.
Greg Moran (18:58.854)
Yep.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (18:59.255)
size is sharpening the axe. Like what I mean by that is like planning the planning for what they really need, like having a really structured look at where the gap is. I think people are very knee -jerk, oh we need a this because of X reason and then so let's just go and find an X right and let's probably they'll be working for X or Y company. Like no you really need to spend a ton of time
you know, because it will help you later, but divining the need is the crucial piece that is usually too rushed. Or, you know, people don't know which type of framework to apply, or who needs to be consulted, who needs to be involved, whose opinion needs to be heard, you know, and most, unfortunately, the net result of this lack of practice,
in advance of going to market for an executive is people get hired, they don't know what the brief is. People get hired, they don't know how they're being measured. Even at this most senior levels, this happens. It may even be worse. So I think that in general, that's what needs to happen. And of course, we're still reliant on processes that were used.
Greg Moran (20:03.038)
Hmm?
Peter Dean (20:06.092)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Moran (20:09.276)
Yep.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (20:22.655)
50, 100 years ago for recruiting, which is like resumes, interviews, and I'm not big on really either of those things too much, honestly.
Greg Moran (20:33.918)
What are you just to follow up on that for a second? If resumes and interviews aren't the way that, aren't the tools that you would recommend for somebody starting to hire their say first or upgrade their executive team or something, what should they be looking at?
Peter Dean (20:33.934)
So.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (20:51.831)
So first of all, behaviors. I'm of the opinion that it's behaviors that drive outcomes, not necessarily skills and not necessarily experience. It's behaviors, and if you can actually define the right behaviors that you're looking for in order to arrive at great outcomes, getting the aggregate opinions of all the stakeholders required.
Peter Dean (21:20.748)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (21:20.987)
then it's a better basis to begin a search for a person to fulfill a thing, you know, in a board or an executive team. And I also think that the, and you know, this is how we met basically, Greg, but I'm a big believer in credentials through evidence by people who know you, who've worked with you, whether they're, and not just people you.
bought into but people that you partnered with, cross functions, peers, and of course, if it's a managerial role, direct reports, like I care more about what those three contingent, those three groups of people have to say about you than anything that you've written on a piece of paper says I'm really good at doing these things, you know, like resumes are useless. I see the adjectives is sometimes like, I'm a visionary leader. Okay, well, are you like, I mean, who's this?
Greg Moran (22:08.798)
Right.
Peter Dean (22:08.94)
Mm -hmm.
Peter Dean (22:15.598)
Yeah.
Greg Moran (22:18.526)
I said, I said I'm a visionary leader.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (22:19.261)
I mean, I'm glad you feel that way about yourself. Like, go, that's great. It doesn't help me recruit you at all. And like with interviews are the worst. Like, you know, one of the best tips I ever had from a friend of mine who'd lived in New York for years, I was phoning around, hey, what's it like living in New York? He was like, the hardest thing as a recruiter, everyone shows up brilliantly in interview. Like you will not be able to distinguish.
Peter Dean (22:28.716)
There's...
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (22:49.079)
between who's good and who's bad because everyone's just, you know, you guys do debating classes when you're like six years old and like, you know, no wonder you could all show up really, really well. Um, you know, so.
Peter Dean (22:50.252)
Mmm.
They look good.
Greg Moran (22:56.734)
Sure.
Greg Moran (23:01.982)
Yeah.
Peter Dean (23:02.286)
The debating class is on the subway every day.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (23:07.799)
Yeah, my favourite one was the Brooklyn to Midtown. Yeah, that's a really great place to debate.
Peter Dean (23:12.654)
Yeah, there's a bit of a debate going on, no matter what's going on to some degree there.
Greg Moran (23:19.358)
You know, I just want to, I just, sorry, Peter, I feel like I keep interrupting you. I just want to go just a layer deeper on this because I think it's a really important thing, right? You referenced it just kind of a quick history. Michael and I met actually right around the time I started my last company and we were commercializing a technology for automated reference checking. So when Michael's talking about references, really that's where Michael and I met actually. And he became a customer of mine. One of my first, I think my first large customer.
when we first started. So, but I think it's really important. It's a very, I think, overlooked step for founders, for boards who are starting to hire, because you do, it is so easy to get enamored with the polish of, especially like when you're a founder and you are just dying to get help, right? And it's so easy to become enamored that the...
The ability to go actually check references on this person to get some real data from people that worked with this person saying like, what am I dealing with here, right? I think it's so critical and it's so easy to overlook it because you just fall in love, right?
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (24:34.229)
You know what, Greg, I've got another thing I think that people overlook as well. It's like, what is this person's level of motivation to do the job? And to what extent do they believe in this company? Because if those two things, especially for early stage businesses, you know, if the person is being having to be like, you know, arm behind the back and push towards the opportunity and persuaded, maybe that's not the right person, you know, maybe it's just a timing thing for them. It's just not the right time. What's their risk appetite? But above all, it's like you should
Greg Moran (24:38.366)
Uh -huh.
That's right.
Yeah.
Greg Moran (24:59.58)
Yeah.
Peter Dean (25:01.206)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (25:02.879)
highly indexed for belief in the company's vision, mission, and purpose. Because there's going to be hard times, and if you're just in it because it's a nice pay hike or whatever, it can be really problematic. So I think they're good things to be screening for. In addition to once you've got the credentialing done and you've fixed on the behavioral profile and you're able to measure candidates' behaviors in advance, belief?
Greg Moran (25:07.942)
Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (25:32.343)
and willingness to do the job like it's super important.
Peter Dean (25:36.302)
Do you think some of that, and this is an add on, because what Greg was talking about that you alluded to before was this, there's a pain, you have this big pain as a founder and you're I just need to fill the pain. I got to fix this. I got to fix this. Instead of going, well, what do I actually need? Like, what do we need really? And then have a conversation. And then you're like, the pain's maybe just a quarter of what we need this to do, but that's the pain I'm feeling now. So I'm reacting. And then I overreact, which none of us, well,
None of Greg or I have never, we've never done that ever overreacted to pain and hiring. It's never, yeah, we've never, oh yeah, he's very introspective and he goes through a very thorough process. We make decisions, but as we've worked together many, many times, it's a, it's a unique flaw we share, which is dangerous, but you,
Greg Moran (26:12.318)
I ever react to nothing. My reactions are perfectly appropriate to the situation at all times.
Peter Dean (26:32.11)
The interviews, it's like interesting. Do you look at the situation of the person to say this person needs a job versus hey, this person really wants this job? How do you discern that, you know?
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (26:43.775)
Great question. Thank you. I think just spending extra time on understanding what motivates that individual is crucial. So, you know, on the one hand, it's like, can they do the job, etc, attributes, whatever behaviors, all that sort of fun stuff. But like, if you need to have spent time, like, asking the person deep questions that they may not even have considered themselves, like, how does your
Peter Dean (27:00.908)
Mm -hmm.
Peter Dean (27:09.644)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (27:11.755)
you know, work intersect with your life. Like, what are you, how does your work goals feed your life goals? Like, why are you working? Like, we all do it, right? We just, but most of us don't have a question like, oh, wait a second, like, why? Why are we doing this? So I think you need to know the why of the individual. And again, it's a pro part, sadly, it's something that tends to be overlooked. People are just focused on, you know, what
Greg Moran (27:19.462)
I'm out.
Peter Dean (27:22.06)
Yeah.
Peter Dean (27:30.412)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (27:38.039)
what salary do you want to make? It's inconsequential really in the long term and it's like getting people at the right time is crucial. So over invest in understanding a person's motivations, they will so appreciate it as well. It delivers a better candidate experience.
Peter Dean (27:48.75)
at the right time.
Greg Moran (27:52.798)
I love that advice. And I've made this mistake before, and I think it's an easy thing for founders. I've made this mistake a couple of times where I've brought in executives who I didn't, they said the right things, right? And I think this is especially something that when you're a high growth startup, you will often get corporate, like corporate leaders, corporate executives.
Peter Dean (27:56.302)
So powerful.
Greg Moran (28:22.75)
who think that they want the startup world, right? Who it sounds appealing, it sounds interesting. And that's a mistake I've made a couple of times. I think it's an easy one for a founder or a board to make because you get this person with this incredible pedigree that's coming in, you get the Google resume or the Amazon resume or something like that. And suddenly you're a 200 person or 100 person or 500 person.
startup that's starting to scale and suddenly they realize, man, this is like really a lot freaking harder than I thought it was. Like this startup stuff is not easy. You know, and it's a, it's, if you can understand that motivation, I think you can really start to dissect beyond some of that really superficial, oh, I want to work in a smaller company. Do you? You know?
Peter Dean (29:10.156)
Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (29:12.919)
I couldn't agree more with that. Um, you know, it's like, so a bad recruiter would ask a candidate, you know, are you interested in working for us to high growth startup candidates? Of course. Sounds great. Bad recruits say great. We'll pass you along to the next stage. That's brilliant. A great recruiter. Great recruiter is like, why?
Greg Moran (29:26.974)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Moran (29:30.846)
Check the box is done.
Peter Dean (29:32.394)
What did you screen for?
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (29:37.527)
is that appealing to you? Because we all know grass is greener, you know, and one fantasizes about different situations. Like for me, same thing, you know, paint this picture, idealistic picture back to my younger days of, you know, entrepreneurial business. And truth is, parts of entrepreneurship are really hard as well. So, you know, which I don't enjoy at all. Like, so it's like, you've got to be careful with...
Greg Moran (29:38.3)
Right.
Peter Dean (29:41.452)
Yeah.
Greg Moran (29:58.302)
Mm -hmm.
Peter Dean (30:00.718)
Yeah, like accounting.
Greg Moran (30:04.092)
Hahaha!
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (30:04.951)
gotta be careful with people's expectations and qualify them. If you don't, you could be in a whole heap of trouble on week three, when the you know, the person's like, Oh, shit, like, this is not what I thought.
Greg Moran (30:17.982)
Yeah.
Peter Dean (30:19.342)
So Michael, you talked about like doing this, you talked about this introspective process. What would you recommend to a founder, someone that's like in this position, right? You have all this urgency, this pains there, you're probably usually moving behind the pain, right? At this stage, before you start getting the team that's building this kind of, hey, how we should be thinking together as a team forward. What are the things that you would say to a founder? What kind of?
questions should they be asking themselves to come up with those behaviors and those pieces.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (30:54.071)
So, I mean, like my cheeky response to that one, Peter, is work with a professional executive recruiter who can help you to divine the need, who's asked those questions 100 times before. So with that said, if you're assuming that maybe the funds aren't there or, you know, whatever to engage with that sort of a service, then what I would do is say, think about outcomes. So what is this pain? What are the outcomes we need?
Peter Dean (31:02.06)
Yeah.
Peter Dean (31:05.806)
Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
Peter Dean (31:21.676)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (31:24.001)
You know, what are the deliverables? What are the, what are the data points? Like, what are the outcomes as a guy called Lou Adler? He's very famously, um, you know, outcome based hiring, performance hiring, and I subscribe to that. So I think if you can say, what do we need to do after, is it 90 days? Is it, is it nine? Like, does this person need to do something in nine days and quality qualify that? What is that document that make sure it's in the job description? None of this.
Greg Moran (31:31.966)
Yeah.
Peter Dean (31:34.092)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Moran (31:43.774)
Yep.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (31:51.937)
vague stuff, like let's be really specific. Like if you do this with, we want you to do this within the ninth day, this within the 90th day, you know, this within the first year, et cetera. That is the great, great basis, I think. And then you can also put in some extra curricular nice to haves, but be very clear, like with these are the outcomes, you know, that we're focused on. So yeah, I think that, and then the formulation of behavioral profiles, we use an amazing tool called Crystal. It's a partner of ours and.
Peter Dean (32:03.308)
Mm -hmm.
Peter Dean (32:13.42)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (32:21.471)
Crystal is really great to canvas opinion from different stakeholders. Cause I think another mistake companies made is like, we just talked to the CEO about what the business needs. Like what about the CFO? Like, has anyone asked the CFO? Like, you know, do we, have we heard from the CRO about what's needed here? Like, so you know, and then have we looked at how these opinions differ on what's needed? And that's healthy, but using tools like Crystal really helps you to sort of go,
Peter Dean (32:47.542)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (32:50.551)
Okay, well Joseph thinks we need a red driver. You know, meanwhile, Cynthia thinks we need a blue supporter. Like, you know, it's you have to bring some science to this because as humans are squishy and hiring is squishy and you know, you need the right tool set needs to be asking the right questions. And above all, you need to focus on outcomes.
Peter Dean (33:00.876)
Mm -hmm.
Peter Dean (33:04.524)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Moran (33:12.638)
The outcome part of this is, I think is really important. And that, a lot of what you're talking about is the actual prep work that goes into this, right? And it sounds like really a lot of what you're saying is the more work you do on that kind of thought process that goes into an executive search, the more successful the outcome is gonna be, right? The more time you actually spend.
talking to people, trying to get consensus, trying to really understand what are the needs from a lot of different perspectives. What are the needs? What are the outcomes that we're really driving for for this role? Sounds like if what you're saying is sort of like the painting analogy, right? The more time you spend prepping the room, the easier the painting is going to be. Is that the way that somebody should be thinking about it?
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (34:02.871)
Absolutely. And it will just make the whole process that follows so much easier. I love the prepping a room analogy. It's my least favorite part of painting. But no one wants to, nobody wants to spend time when they have none, right, on prep. But the fact is that that's just gonna, it's gonna deliver you better outcomes. Now I'm not saying that people can't come in with like a three line job description and.
Greg Moran (34:15.238)
Mm -hmm.
Peter Dean (34:20.566)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (34:31.735)
knock the ball out the park, right? People can succeed and beyond because that's true. You know, unfortunately that's how most hiring gets done. But if you want the edge, you know, if you, if you really want your hire to deliver and produce faster results, better results, then, you know, having that roadmap from the job description is, is absolutely the way to go versus like, Oh, you know, we just need someone that's been an X.
Greg Moran (34:58.43)
Yeah, the you know, it's.
Peter Dean (34:58.734)
This is what you're talking about is like really being intentional, right? Like the more intentional you are, the better outcome. And it is an area that startups, it's so hard for us to be intentional everywhere. But if our people are our best asset, which we tell and sell to our equity partners, you should put effort here. And this is an area that you have to say stop. And Greg's done it to me before. Like, Hey, listen,
Just go hire someone, make sure you're doing a good job. Like, what do you really, what is this for? You know?
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (35:34.401)
You know what, Peter, another mistake that happens from a knee jerk sort of response to hiring an executive is like, people get fooled by brands. So like, ah, this person's worked for, you know, Amazon or this person's worked for Google or whatever. Like, believe me, not everyone that's worked for Amazon is good. And so you have to sort of say, you know, you almost need to prepare for your, acknowledge your biases as well before you go into a hiring situation, whether you've prepared fully for it or not.
Peter Dean (35:46.19)
Yeah.
Greg Moran (35:52.254)
Praise.
Peter Dean (36:00.46)
Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (36:04.375)
Because I see so many people just like, ah, you know, this person's at McKinsey or Bain or BCG, they're definitely going to be good. Well, no, again, it's like, where are they in their life? How is this solving for where they want to be in their life? Is it the right time for this person? You know, often in these super big companies, of course, I'm not talking about WBP here, but there's a lot of people who you just wonder what they do even. And
Peter Dean (36:04.386)
Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (36:32.587)
their resume still says the same as the top performer. And so they still enjoy that sort of pedigree recognition or whatever you want to call it. But, you know, honestly, like, it's easy to be fooled by that. And again, that's why credentialing is so important.
Peter Dean (36:35.756)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Moran (36:49.086)
You know, when you talk about introspection, it's funny, if I think about the hires, the executive level hires that I made that have been colossal disasters, right? They just have not worked out. And this is not a statement about the people. Like, I don't mean that the people were bad or anything like that. I always knew, right? And if I'm honest with myself,
I always had a feeling in my gut that I don't know if I really want to hang out with this guy. I don't know how I really feel about this guy. And I think, you know, I'm just curious because in this, I mean, you talk about being squisher and this is a squishy as it gets, but that, that intuition, that gut that a founder or a CEO has when they're building that team, I can, I,
And again, I don't want to, would never mention names, but there's two people I'm thinking of. And both occasions, I knew in my gut, but I was so desperate to make the hire and these were good, they had incredible resumes and unbelievable experience and all this stuff. There were a lot of reasons to hire them, but I knew. And I'm just curious, I don't even know if that's a question. I mean, I just would love your.
your opinion on that. Because I just think that, you know, that's the part that I think founders sometimes have a hard time trusting when you have a bunch of people saying, oh, this guy's incredible. This person's amazing. And you know, sometimes, right?
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (38:29.399)
Here's where I'd start, Greg, with that. As a founder, you've got to acknowledge 10 % at least of the highs you're going to make are not going to work out. That's if you're lucky. I think, you know, on average, probably more like, you know, three in 10, unfortunately, not going to work out in the way that you hoped. So, higher fast, fire fast. You know, it's like, if you can see that it's not a great fit for the person.
Greg Moran (38:38.652)
Mm -hmm. Right.
Greg Moran (38:44.86)
Yeah.
Peter Dean (38:47.66)
Hmm.
Greg Moran (38:51.582)
Mm -hmm.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (38:55.287)
You're just going to make it more painful for them continuing because you thought your gut was right and you're, you know, you're sort of continually willing to make exceptions, give chances. No, higher fast, fire fast.
Peter Dean (39:00.142)
Yeah.
Greg Moran (39:08.318)
So it's interesting, when you say hire fast though, right? It almost runs contrary to all the prep. So what we're saying, like do the prep work, but then once you get into the search, like, so talk about that. It's just, yeah, okay.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (39:15.829)
Nope.
Fast. Yeah, right. There's no like this idea that you need three months minimum to hire an executive is nonsense. Absolute garbage. It's basically an illusion that is manifested by executive search firms who want to charge you more money because 90 days work is going to pay them more than two weeks work. But truthfully, if you've spent enough time on introspection, there is no reason why you cannot accelerate.
Greg Moran (39:41.534)
Right.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (39:46.997)
During the first pandemic year, I think I hired about 42 C -level and one below executives, multiple countries. Each time that was possible to accomplish because we'd already done that introspective work and we were using the right tools and therefore we were able to execute really quickly. Now, of course, not everyone was hired under 90 days, but most were.
So it's just like, you can absolutely hire fast. And that's, again, it underlines the importance of the paint prep or the sharpening of the ax and the introspection work upfront. If you know what you're looking for, it's easy to find. If your brief is so vague, it could mean anything. Good luck. Or if you don't have stakeholder alignment with various different stakeholders of the role, good luck getting the consensus required to pull the trigger. That's what elongate searches.
Peter Dean (40:29.834)
Yeah.
Greg Moran (40:31.612)
Yeah.
Peter Dean (40:41.422)
So slow down for the prep, be intentional, then move fast is what you're saying. You gotta slow down, get ready, then when you go, make decisions and go. Greg's really good at moving fast like that. But it makes sense, Greg, right? Every time you've been prepped and go, they're good decisions. You actually don't mess around when you make decisions about this, in my opinion, from our relationship.
Greg Moran (40:49.982)
Yep. Yeah.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (40:51.583)
Precisely. Precisely.
Greg Moran (40:55.518)
Yeah, I just did.
Greg Moran (41:03.07)
No, no, yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, that's it. But it does it. I think that's the distinction, right? That's the distinction that really matters. And I think what you're saying, Michael, is so is so important, right? About you. It is if you do the prep. You should not be stretching these screening processes out forever, right? But you see it. I see it. You see it a lot like, you know, I've got portfolio companies from like.
Peter Dean (41:13.55)
That is, yeah.
Peter Dean (41:28.844)
Yeah.
Greg Moran (41:30.652)
weren't you talking to that guy six weeks ago? Like, what, you know, what, what are you doing? Like, hire, don't hire. Like, I don't, but.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (41:37.621)
Be decisive, because it's super frustrating for candidates as well, because it's like, you know, I interviewed two weeks ago, have you got a decision, Lea? Yey -nay? No? Like, come on, like, no. Yeah, just another person.
Peter Dean (41:41.164)
Yeah.
Greg Moran (41:47.486)
Right. Well.
Peter Dean (41:48.59)
We're going to have you talk to another person.
Greg Moran (41:51.614)
And it's, well, it's the deep prioritization, I think is often the issue there, right? And when you look at the way that those things really starts to stretch out, I think, well, oftentimes what you see is, oh yeah, we had a great conversation with Sally and it was terrific. And we scheduled the follow -up for two weeks from now.
Why? Why did you schedule follow -up for two weeks? Like, you know, how about...
Peter Dean (42:14.094)
If you got a good one, don't wait for the next one to come. Go after the good one, right?
Greg Moran (42:17.694)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. I think so. So, so, uh, all right. So I think Michael's, uh, Michael's about to run into a, uh, to a technical problem and we're right about time. No, no, no. Yeah.
Peter Dean (42:20.782)
Is that the point? I don't know. I make mistakes all the time, but.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (42:31.159)
So Greg, I'm okay. Yeah, let's just pause. I just need a charger. Mal, if you're listening, I need you to bring the physical device charger for this screen. We are in a household that does not have enough USB chargers. I can see everyone can relate to that. So we're basically stealing this charger from here to here. So yeah, we'll just take a breather. Are you guys okay with so far?
Greg Moran (42:51.422)
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, yeah, no, go for it. When you get it on.
Peter Dean (42:59.854)
Yeah, it's awesome. It's insane. There's so many things to pull out.
Greg Moran (43:00.606)
Oh, it's great. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah. We will though, when we come back, we will start to wrap up. We'll like ask one more question, then we'll wrap because we're gonna come right up on the, we said 30 minutes and we're at 42.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (43:10.935)
that's cool we're back we're oh shit yeah we're back we're on we're we have the juice uh melody did the thing and we're back in business so yeah let's just wind it down whatever you need to do yeah
Greg Moran (43:20.446)
Cool. All right. All right. So just Alicia, if you could just mark where we were and then where we are. So, okay, so where we left it was just, we were talking about that. We were talking about, you know, the kind of once you go, go and not elongating this process, right? But actually, look, and I think that the part of this is like, if you can't, if you're a founder, you can't make this a priority, that really should tell you all you need to know about making decisions.
And I think...
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (43:50.807)
Yes, totally. Like if you haven't got like an hour to spend consulting with somebody, you know, on what really are the outcomes you want, you shouldn't be hiring.
Greg Moran (44:03.582)
That's right. That's right. And it's probably because you're not you haven't convinced yourself. Right. And I think in a lot of this, a lot of this really, really comes down to that. So, Michael, this this was fantastic. I love kind of the really tactical approach. I think if you're a founder, you're listening to this, you're going to get a lot of you're going to get a lot of this. You're going to get a lot out. The last thing I would say, and I know this is not it. Well, this is a plug for Talaget's, but it's it's also a plug for the industry in general.
One of the things that you see founders do and way in here, Michael, I mean, one of the things you see founders do all the time is try to do this on their own. And when you're dealing with executive level hires, if you can afford it, I know the price tag can look big. If you can afford it, use a strong search firm. The outcomes are wildly different. No, no.
Peter Dean (44:52.526)
This is not where you try to save money. Don't try to save money here.
It's like, oh, I'm going to buy the most important thing that I have, but I wanted to save money, right? It's like the what the US government's supposed to do that. That that is not what we should be doing here, right?
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (44:58.921)
Yes.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (45:11.255)
Yes, it's not to say you shouldn't network. Ask everybody, you know, who do you know, who do you know, who do you know, who do you know? Don't ask, do you know anyone, by the way, that's the worst question. Who do you know? Ask open questions. You know, be continually recruiting as a founder for future roles, right? I've constantly, oh, make sure I have your details, you know, like do that. But you know, honestly, when it comes to these things, there are, there's a time and a place to bring in an outside advisor and that.
Greg Moran (45:15.39)
Absolutely.
Greg Moran (45:26.364)
Yep.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (45:40.759)
Absolutely. This is one. Yeah.
Greg Moran (45:43.39)
Yeah, absolutely. And partner and actually partner with the search for the best results that I've gotten when we've made hires here is I'm out networking. I'm saying, who do you know? Right. And, you who should I be talking to? But then bring them into the for bring them as part of that search. Right. And that it just becomes a much more effective way when you have that third party that's really doing that kind of base baselining in comparison against these candidates.
and doing that work to come in with the final one. So I think it's not only a plug for intelligence, which obviously recommend you guys, but it's also a plug for the industry in general. Don't try to do this, Andrew. Don't try to be cheap here. This is not the way you're going to do it.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (46:25.879)
Yeah, it's like, I mean, if you have a toothache, where'd you go? You know, if you have like a illness, you don't go, you don't go try and diagnose it yourself. Like, like pain, you need a specialist. That's a life rule.
Greg Moran (46:37.232)
Yep.
Greg Moran (46:41.854)
Yeah. And these decisions are huge, right? I mean, you, you know, if you make these executive, these early executive level hires that a startup makes have the ability to make or break that company. And I've seen both happen. Right. It can go either way. Right. And, you know, it's, it's a, it's a major role. It's something that you really want to be, uh, you want to be as, as thoughtful about as you possibly can. So Michael, this is, uh, this is awesome. We will definitely get you back. We're doing, um,
Peter Dean (46:53.678)
or break or break, yes.
Greg Moran (47:11.326)
We've actually done a few episodes on recruiting lately and I think it could be a really fun kind of sort of, we do these kind of curations around topics and I think this could be a fun one to do a follow up for. So we'll definitely have you back real quick. How do people reach you? If they're interested in your service, they want to connect with you, which is the best way to do it.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (47:31.223)
Yeah, thank you, Greg. Appreciate it. Michael at intelligence is the way to reach me via email. I'm usually willing to connect on LinkedIn also. So yeah, don't hesitate to connect with me on LinkedIn. I keep my inbox clean there and we'll be responsive.
Greg Moran (47:49.598)
Goal. And we will put the links to your email, to LinkedIn, and to the website in the show notes. So if you want to find Michael, it'll be easy to do.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (48:03.639)
Thanks for the PR, gentlemen. I appreciate it.
Greg Moran (48:06.782)
This is great, really, really appreciate it. Always fun. It's a big kick to have you here. I mentioned this before, Michael and I got to know each other. He was one of my first customers when we started the first iteration of the business of Outmatch when we were still our previous name under check .com. Michael did testimonials for us. He was one of those guys that was always willing to pick up the
phone and talk to people when you're an early stage startup man that makes all the difference in the world. So it'll never be forgotten and it's awesome to have here.
Michael | Founder @ Taligence (48:46.739)
Respect to you, Greg. Have a safe flight. See you in Saratoga, Peter. All right, take care, guys.
Peter Dean (48:51.862)
Absolutely.
Greg Moran (48:53.8)
All right. All right. Next time, we'll see you back in Founders Journey. If you like the episode, make sure you share it and comment and like it and do whatever you're going to do on any platform that you're listening or watching on. So we'll see you next time on the Founders Journey Podcast