Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
Hi everyone. My name is Declan. This is Sullivan. Welcome back to the Long Game, a Heat at Rivalry podcast. Today we are going to be looking at a little bonus chapter for everyone. if you're not already aware and you're not caught up, we finished the Heat at Rivalry book review. So we have been thankfully given more from Rachel Reed.
And we're gonna be doing a little bonus episode. And this is going to be My Dinner with Hayden, which, if you're not already aware, is a chapter, sort of bonus chapter that Rachel Reed put on our website for the fans. And it's just a little basically dinner between Ilya Shane and Hayden and his wife. it's very cute.
It's a little funny and it's just something a bit extra for the fans. we're just gonna take a bit of a dive into it. So, Sullivan, what was your general thoughts about this sort of extra bit she added on?
Silvan (00:52)
So, My Dinner with Hayden. This is a chapter that a lot of our listeners have wanted us to get to and review. And we said we would, and it comes at the end of the book. So comes at the end of the story reading. However, there is a note from Rachel that says, bonus story takes place three weeks before the epilogue in Heated Rivalry. So it's an epilogue prologue. So this is what happens when Ilya and Shane try to host a dinner party for Hayden and Jackie. Enjoy.
Now, initially I was really confused about the timeline. And the reason
Declan (01:28)
Mm.
Silvan (01:29)
why I was confused was because in the epilogue, we find out that Hayden finds out about Ilya and Shane.
Declan (01:37)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Silvan (01:38)
And so as I was reading the first few pages, I was like, wait, but this is three weeks before then. How does Hayden know? And shout out to Jen, she doesn't know this, but I sent her a voicemail asking her,
Jen, what is this all about? Like, how does this work? What's going on? And then I unsent it, because thank God Instagram has introduced that function, because had I just read a couple of later, it all makes sense in the timeline. So initially,
Declan (02:09)
Yeah.
Silvan (02:09)
I read it thinking, I have no idea where we are in terms of the timeline. And then it sort of makes sense.
I wanted to ask what were your overall thoughts on the chapter?
Declan (02:20)
Think it's like a cute sort of moment in time for them. I feel like this is actually the original epilogue. I'm gonna be honest. I think that's what it originally was, and I can see why in terms of pacing and things like that, there it wouldn't quite work as a sort of finishing product. Like we had a lot to say about the ending of Hero Rivalry and how we felt that the epilogue felt like the true ending, and so it should have just been the last chapter instead of like.
An epilogue per se. but yeah, I feel like this was originally Rachel's idea. Like this is just pure conjecture. I have no idea if this is true. and that this is how she wanted the sort of end of the book to be, this cute little moment where Jade and Ilya are sort of, you know, opening up to to Hayden and Jackie. yeah, I just think that's what it was originally for. and instead she's just sort of
polish it off a little and then giving it this as a bonus chapter now. But that idea of like a prequel to the epilogue is confusing, I think.
Silvan (03:25)
mean, it didn't take much to confuse me. It was very late when I tried reading this chapter and it was after a long day. And I just sat there and I wondered, would I have had a different interpretation to this chapter if I had read it maybe like first thing in the morning when I'm a bit fresh? Because my thoughts on the overall chapter and we'll get into specifics.
Don't hate me, please don't hate me everyone. I thought it was cute, yes, I agree. I don't know how much it adds to the story. I'm not sure that it was as well written as some of the previous chapters. I didn't enjoy this as much as everyone kept commenting and hyping it up. And that's not their responsibility. I think that's my expectations were a little bit higher. And so when I did read it, I was like,
Okay, like... Yeah, sure. Could we have
Declan (04:21)
Yeah. Yeah. I
Silvan (04:23)
done without it? I don't think we would have lost anything in the story.
Declan (04:28)
Yeah, I think that's why she probably released it as like a bonus bit. I get the idea that she originally had this in the book and removed it. and there are reasons you remove stuff from your books. if an editor took a look at this and she had it in her story, they would remove it. Like that is as blunt as you can get it. if they had this chapter in the Heated Rivalry book, an editor wrote it and went, Remove that chapter, you don't need
And
that's essentially kind of what this is. so this is, I think, more like fan service. This is like a little bit of extra to give some background to Ilya and Hayden and their animosity towards each other. so it's kinda like just a cute moment in time. but I think that's why it sort of needs to remain separate from the main book because it does nothing for its pacing and does nothing for its story. it literally is just a little bit of fan service for people. and so you need to
like separate those two out to make sure that, you know, you're not overly including the quality of this chapter in the general book, and its story. At least that's what I think anyway. Technically this is canon because Rachel wrote it, but yeah, I'm just gonna pretend this doesn't this all happened in the background and that it didn't have to be written in this way or removed because of its the way it just didn't fit into its own story. So yep.
That's just my general thought on it.
Silvan (05:57)
I think when you put that lens on about, you know, this isn't part of the story, this is extra, this is something completely separate, I think it differs the expectation, but it also differs the expectation of the writing quality, how it progresses the story, the pacing. So for example, I found the extra bonus Vegas chapter a lot more compelling than this, for example. And I wondered...
if she had switched them and included that in the book, what that might've looked like. Yeah, or if she had just left this as a bonus feature on her website, for example. I would love to hear from listeners, because obviously the edition I have is obviously a reprint. I wonder if this was in the original first edition that she would have published way back when. Somebody's
Declan (06:49)
Hm that chapter.
Silvan (06:52)
gotta have one.
Declan (06:54)
I no, I would have read or listened to the book much earlier than that. So the original audio, which is terrible by the way, I don't think it's included. So that's how I how I originally consumed the book. I don't think it was included. No, I think I read it separately from that. but yeah. No, it would be interesting. So in your book, is it like about at the end, like
Extra chapter
Silvan (07:26)
literally it's you know it's its own sort of it's got its own cover and everything so it literally is something quite separate and i think when you talked about it being like something for the fans i think this is something that she's probably included for the fans
Declan (07:43)
Yeah. Yeah, because
I had to read it online. So I did it's not part of my book. So
Yeah. All right. Hmm.
Silvan (07:50)
Interesting. Okay, this
is starting to make sense now. I mean, when we get into the actual sort of the storyline, I mean, what Rachel is trying to do is set up this dynamic, right, and maybe even resolve the some of the animosity between Hayden and Ilya. Because
Declan (08:13)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (08:14)
throughout the chapter, you see there's that
that rivalry that exists on the ring sort of translates still into real life, but also translates into this very civilized dinner party. I mean, they've got multiple dishes and wine glasses and you know, it's a proper grown up dinner party, but
Declan (08:35)
Yeah.
Silvan (08:36)
these guys still act like they're on the ring, or at least Ilya and Aidan do.
Declan (08:43)
Yeah.
It's they cannot separate out this domestic version of Ilya with like the hockey version of Ilya. and Hayden can't help but bring that energy at him because he's just it's instinctual at this point. I would say if you put like most hockey players in front of Ilya at this dinner table, they would behave the same way towards him. So it's almost like an Ilya doesn't help himself, like he plays into it.
But there's like an initial reaction of what people assume Ilya is going to behave towards them. So they usually go in a bit harder than they need to. you'll find that in other books, like when he comes across like Scott, when he's like out and about, Scott is like always wary of him, like he's just about to get insulted by him. and there's always like funny little moments with different players when they meet Ilya, like they always assume that Ilya's just gonna like take the piss out of them. And so they have their backup immediately. So
Hayden is doing exactly that. He's going into this dinner party thinking this guy's gonna be a dick, he's gonna be this, and he's gonna be exactly like he is on the ice. And Ilya could do a better job of dissuading him from that notion, but would he really be Ilya if he if he didn't behave the way he did?
Silvan (09:59)
Exactly, it's part of his charm in a way and Ilya plays it up. He is quite the a-hole, too Hayden, let's be honest. Like he's not nice either. So and I feel bad because Shane is obviously very caught in the middle of these two men.
What I did get in the beginning of this chapter is Ilya knows how to behave to a certain extent. Ilya is a very good host. Ilya is the one topping up everyone's wine glasses.
He's very attentive like we know he has been in previous chapters. And he's the one who actually makes conversation with Jackie. He's the one who tries to redirect the hockey conversation when it's dominating the dinner conversation and says like, what about if we don't talk about hockey? To which Jackie is like, there's a sigh of relief. And so, Elia almost feels like I'm gonna get so much hate for this.
It's almost like he doesn't care about the hockey, he'd rather talk about something else.
Declan (11:03)
Yes. And I give credence to this. I believe, honestly, that Ilya loves to win and that he loves playing sport. I don't think he specifically is fully in love with hockey as much as everyone else is. But I do also believe that he is more socially aware of a situation than Hayden or
Shane really is. he is actually typically the more adult out of the three of them. Like he behaves more in adult ways. He's the one like experienced enough to maneuver a conversation to suit the needs of everyone at the table and not exclude anybody. that emotional intelligence is there. And we talked about his background and the kind of upbringing he would have had, and that totally makes sense. People who come from very intense family backgrounds where
you manage people's emotions and you manage people's behaviors, and much like Ilya would have done with his dad and his mum to a certain extent, they learn to read rooms and they learn how to manage people in a way that is really subtle. And Ilya's sort of doing it in this chapter. He's managing the conversation, he's managing the way in which they're interacting, he doesn't lose sight of Jackie. And then Jackie is very grateful for the fact that someone has gone, let's sit.
The hockey aside, guys, like let's talk about something else. And that just shows his thoughtfulness as well. And his emotional maturity. Ilya behaves like a brat, but that is deliberate. Like, underneath that, he's quite an emotionally intelligent person. He's very clever and he knows how to operate in a social sphere. Social anxiety fears Ilya Rosinoff, honestly. Like he
is not bothered by it whatsoever. and so he's sort of the perfect instrument to manage a dinner party like this, which is quite ironic because you would expect Shane to be constantly like, Ilya, you need to behave yourself. Like if anyone's gonna mess us up, you're gonna mess us up. When he's being the better host. Even though he
Silvan (13:08)
Which he does. I mean, to some extent.
Declan (13:12)
does mess it up, but that's just from force of personality. So yeah, actually I think Shane's also right. He does know that Ilya can manage himself, but
He's aware that Ilya sometimes won't bother even trying to withhold himself and he'll just Ilya everybody else in the room.
Silvan (13:33)
Quite literally. I think for me, what came across is I get the impression that these men don't talk about anything but hockey all the time. So when they try and drop hockey as a topic, there's silence. And it to me, it reminded me of when I used to play sports and my friends would talk about football when we were playing football and then talk about football at school and then talk about football on the way to playing football. was just like, it's a bit too much.
You know, I have other interests.
I don't think these men are really well developed with other interests as people.
Declan (14:11)
Yeah, and that's actually a really good point. Except for Ilya. Ilya has other interests. Like Ilya has a big car collection, he travels quite a lot, he experiences things, parties, he was doing all these things when he was younger. obviously hockey's still a big part of that, but you get the idea that Ilya has a much
wider sphere of interests than Shane and Hayden does. Like, what does Shane do outside of hockey?
Silvan (14:47)
think he reads a little bit, but that's about it. But he reads about hockey.
Declan (14:51)
Yeah, like Shane, step away from the puck. Like it's time t it's time to take off some crocheting or something. You can't just obsess over the one thing forever. well maybe he can. but yeah, it's important to have like a a a diverse range of interests so that you don't become all consumed in the one thing and obsessive over it, which unfortunately Shane kinda does.
And then poor Jackie has to sit and listen to hockey whenever Shane and Hayden are around each other all the time. Poor Jackie, honestly, she's the real victim in this chapter. she she deserved better.
Silvan (15:32)
God, poor Jackie indeed, like hashtag poor Jackie, because first of all, Jackie is really underdeveloped. Like she's not really a character in the main Heated Rivalry book, but
Declan (15:45)
Yeah.
Silvan (15:46)
she's not really embellished all that much in this chapter either. Like she has some lines here and there. I don't get a sense of who is Jackie really. And I feel like Rachel writes the men really well.
Declan (16:00)
Mm.
Silvan (16:01)
Where are the female protagonists? are the female characters? Where's their moment? Where's their development? I don't necessarily get that from this book yet.
Declan (16:14)
I'm gonna be perfectly honest, that is a running theme throughout this series. not just this book. Rachel's female characters are ironically quite underdeveloped. I cannot really think of really standout characters who are female in her books. Obviously it's a gay romance and so the focus is mainly gonna be on the two main characters, but even the side characters seem to get a bit more
Time
to shine whenever they're male. I don't know if it's just tunnel vision with what she's writing and trying to write through write male characters through a female gaze and then hyper focusing on that where she's sort of forgetting that the female characters actually exist. I mean forget about the TV show. Like name one well developed female character and hit it rivalry, the book.
Silvan (17:13)
I can't.
Declan (17:14)
Yeah, there are none. Yuna is a a come and go character, she's barely in the book at all. Svetlana is basically Ilya's fuckbuddy, who speaks Russian and likes hockey, and she is in like a couple of paragraphs. yeah, like that's it. And that's kinda disappointing because you can see the potential that they could have.
within the story because Jacob Tierney takes the characters then and turns them into like very memorable parts of the show. Like Rose in the show is night and day to he'd rivalry the book. she's much more interesting. She feels less shallow, less throwaway as a character. in the book she is more like an obstacle between Illy and Shane that ends in a nice way, which isn't typical of
MM romances where sometimes the woman can be like demonized as they're like, this is the one keeping them apart, and she's this horrible witch and she's gonna do this and do that. she does avoid that trope, but Rose doesn't automatically become a very interesting person just because that's done. and so you do see it a bit here in this as well. Jackie is not Jackie's a great opportunity for like a stable base for like Shane to like vent about relationship because obviously Hayden, he can't.
Because he is sort of an enemy of Ilya, so he's always gonna want to almost sabotage in a way, but not really, but not always be on side. So Jackie would have been a perfect medium for Chain to sort of talk about his relationship and talk about things going on with him. especially in terms of Ilya and stuff like that. That would have been a really nice idea. But they're not gonna those ideas were weren't really thought of at the time. And so
The show is correcting a lot of those mistakes and doing it really well. So I have high hopes for how perhaps Jackie might be portrayed in the long game whenever Hayden becomes a bigger part of the story, because he will become slightly bigger in the long game. so I would like to see her turn on the a more like three dimensional character too.
Silvan (19:33)
I think you're right. think there was an opportunity to make Jackie a real confidant for Shane, you know, just
Declan (19:40)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (19:40)
to talk about his emotions, about his relationship, to have, and I know he has that in Rose. So yeah, that's great, but Rose isn't there all the time. She hasn't mentioned a whole lot after they break up, you know?
Declan (19:50)
Yeah, like where is she from?
Silvan (19:53)
And so I think one thing that struck me when you were talking was,
Hayden as a character in the TV show is a lot more likeable than Hayden in the book and I'm going to explain that.
So Hayden is very much as giving me sort of like best friend vibes. He's very protective of Shane, of course. And this was actually something that one of our commenters on socials left and reminded me of this. So thank you. You know who you are. In chapter 12, I think it is of heated rivalry, Hayden is at the aquarium with Shane. And I
Declan (20:41)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (20:41)
know I'm going backwards to go forwards, I know.
Hayden discloses that Jackie's pregnant and Shane's like, again? And
Declan (20:50)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (20:52)
Hayden says, yeah, I know, but Jackie's happy. I mean, she's fucking bored, right? Now, this commenter left a really lengthy comment and I hear you and I'm glad you did. Cause she said, no woman who has two or three children is going to say,
She wants to be pregnant with another child because she's fucking bored. And that commenter was a woman, so I'm going
Declan (21:19)
Ha ha
Silvan (21:21)
to fully take that as face value. And I think she's right. I think to say a woman is bored, so she's going to have another child, that just didn't sit right. And when I reread that, I thought, no, that doesn't sit right with me.
Declan (21:37)
Yeah it's that is a bit of an odd line now that you're like pointing it out to me. I'm like Yeah, there was like better ways of playing that off. Funnier ways as well. I I don't know. It's not
Silvan (21:50)
Yeah.
Declan (21:51)
I think it's just like not a great it's just not a great line to be honest. just in general. So, no, I get the commenters beef though, the idea of like Hayden saying this kind of sexist thing. But like
A woman's only entertainment is her children. like if you ask any mother at the moment, as much as they love their kids, boredom is not something they need to worry about. It's more the fact that they're never given the opportunity to be bored and they would happily fill that time with time for themselves. rather than sitting in the house being bored if they have nothing to do.
Silvan (22:29)
Exactly. And I can't speak to that experience. I would love for some of our female listeners who have children or parents who have children to let us know if that line resonated with them, if they sort of graced against it, how they feel about that sort of sentiment, because this comment was really insightful in just opening that chapter up.
But if we come back to this chapter, dinner with Hayden, yes, Jackie is underdeveloped. There is a missed opportunity there. And if I'm honest, I'm not sure that Hayden is the nice guy that he's being portrayed. Both Ilya and Hayden are at each other's throats. And I know it's done in a very comical way, but you
Declan (23:13)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (23:13)
can see the stress it puts on Shane. Like Shane only has to...
you know, give Jackie a tour for two minutes for them to start at each other again. And I think as much as we like Ilya, yes, he has responsibility over that as well. But
Declan (23:31)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (23:31)
I think Hayden is acting like an a-hole, partly because, and this is touched in the chapter a little later, because Shane doesn't actually tell him he's gay. Hayden has to find it out on his own. I think he does some sleuthing with timelines and things like that.
And later on in the chapter he says to Shane, that hurt.
Declan (23:54)
Yeah. I love it when people make your coming out about them. it really is truly inspiring to hear. it really does make me bleed with empathy for them. I never got this. I think coming out is such a difficult thing to do and it's so individual to the person.
And it's not something you can rush or something that is about anyone else but you. It's not personal like what order you have to come out to people in. Like there's not a priority list. Sometimes it's easier in certain moments to do it with a complete stranger than it is to do it with one of your closest friends or closest family members because when you tell them you have more to lose. And it's not always about trust because you know.
You can trust people to the moon and back, but they might hold a very strong view against this one specific thing that you're not aware of. And if you're unable to judge someone's attitude, and given like you give the example that you know, Hayden made a pretty sexist comment about his own wife, like would you assume that that guy could possibly be homophobic as well? It's not out of the realm of impossibility. and also
I am reading the book at the moment. It's another hockey book by two male authors, and I think they capture the homophobia in hockey way better than in books like this. And it is rampant throughout sports and locker rooms and schools. And it's not typically very accurately depicted in books like this. But the reality is that it's way harsher than you're imagining. And it's way more prevalent.
And way more casual. and it's just thrown out. Shane probably hears the F-word and gay boy or gay whatever this and gay whatever that thrown out casually on the daily. And so Hayden is a part of that environment whether or not he likes that. And so there is an element of Shane that is always going to be hesitant to open up to someone like that. just because.
He's it is a trauma. You've literally been traumatized by being around this sort of casual bigotry that it sort of instills a fear in you of coming out and being yourself. And so Hayden is just proving that he is entirely unaware of how difficult this was for Shane. And he's making a very selfish observation that why wouldn't you tell me like
How do you think it's affected me? What about me? And it's like, brother in Christ, it's not fucking about you. It's not about you. you just need to be there for your friend and accept that, you know, he's feeling comfortable now. You're here, you're in his home now with his boyfriend now. And take that for the wind that it is. He wants you to be a part of his life. You're one of the only few people that know in the entire world. Let that be enough. It's not about you.
Silvan (27:19)
I agree, I agree. I'm
Declan (27:21)
That was a round.
Silvan (27:22)
gonna be a little, I'm gonna give Hayden a little bit of grace in that I really do think, because Hayden says, you could have told me, Shane, you could have told me, I hate that you kept it from me all this time, that you thought you needed to. Now, I think Hayden here is very much projecting how hurt he is from thinking, I thought we had a really solid relationship, I thought.
You know, you're quite open. You could tell
Declan (27:49)
Mm.
Silvan (27:49)
me everything. And he's maybe projecting some of this hurting, hurting. Is that a word? I don't know. That hurt and directing it towards Ilya because it's easier to be angry at Ilya or project that anger towards Ilya because let's be honest, Ilya doesn't help himself.
Declan (28:13)
No, he makes himself an easy target. but I will I will give a kinder read to Hayden. I think Hayden is ashamed that he
did not create a space in which Shane felt safe to come out to. He is feeling shame for that. And he is angry at himself for not doing that. And he is projecting onto everyone else, which is still an asshole move. If you're literally thinking to yourself, I can't believe I did that. That's terrible. And I lash it at everybody else.
Silvan (28:54)
Yeah?
Declan (28:54)
Like it's still
not a good look for him. And so getting this chapter, I'm like, you are annoying me. And I know Ilya
Silvan (29:07)
Bye!
Declan (29:08)
is also being a dick, but he's charming about it. You're just being a dick.
Silvan (29:15)
Yeah, yeah, I hear that. And I think for me, one of the purposes of having Hayden and Jackie come to dinner is that it almost resembles this quote unquote conventional normal type of relationship to Shane, where they can be
Declan (29:31)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (29:32)
very free with their emotions and
open and talk and show the world. And there was part of this chapter where Shane says,
I hate how we have to hide. I hate only getting these stolen moments with you. It's been so many fucking years of this and I'm tired.
And I think there are so many people, so many queer people that can relate to the sentiment about just wanting to be free.
Declan (30:01)
Yeah, yeah. And that must be so hard as well for people that are already in a relationship and having to keep your love for someone else under wraps for an undisclosed amount of time. Like that's hard. Carrying that weight is hard and not being able to bask in your joy of your relationship is awful.
And you do feel quite sorry for Shane in this chapter.
And now I'm going to say something that contradicts that entire thing because this is completely out of character for him.
Silvan (30:45)
Same old.
Declan (30:47)
You have not read the long game yet. But this contradicts Shane's attitude in the long game. So it does. This is why this is why this chapter.
Silvan (30:56)
Say less Declan, say less. I take it back.
Declan (31:00)
This is why this chapter
should remain separate from the story.
Silvan (31:07)
So in this chapter, obviously I've not read the long game, so I can't come from that sort of informed sort of world. However,
Declan (31:14)
Yeah.
Silvan (31:15)
in this chapter, Ilya is ready to disclose everything. There is a quote. where Ilya says, I will tell the whole world right now if that's what you want.
And later Shane says, I'm scared. Okay. And then Ilya says, I'm serious. If we hide it forever or tell the world right now, I am with you. I will quit hockey or fight to stay in the country. Whatever you want. Ilya's ready. I don't think
Declan (31:46)
Yeah.
Silvan (31:47)
Shane is.
Declan (31:49)
Yeah. In that sense you can disregard what I said before. Because this
Silvan (31:57)
So let's edit it out.
Declan (31:58)
no, honestly, this does reflect this now actually does reflect our dynamic going into the long game, to be honest. This bridges the attitudes that the two of them are gonna have. Both of them are sick of it. Ilya is more than ready to like throw it all to the wind and just go for it.
Shane's anxiety and fear of what will happen to him and his career and happen to hockey in general is stopping them from doing it. Even though they have the example of Scott Hunter, who obviously not perfect circumstances after he came out, but he is still able to do his sport and he's still able to do what he wants to do. There is the complication of the rivalry and this sort of public image that both of them have.
But the reality is what do you care more about? Honestly, this is a sport, it's playing, it's it's worth a lot of money to them, but they're already immensely wealthy and it's something that they deeply enjoy. But there's gonna come a point in time when their bodies aren't gonna let them do that anymore.
And the longer that they play, the worse that will get, and the quicker it comes. And so they're sacrificing time and love for one another to continue doing this thing that is dragging them apart. And so it's very much an idea of being torn between two loves, or Shane. for Ilya, Shane is the love, like hockey is
For
Ilya it seems like a means to an end. He loves the win, he enjoys the sport and he doesn't want to be a loser with the whole thing, but he is willing to throw it out if he can keep Shane. but Shane cannot decide between the two.
Silvan (34:01)
No, no, you can't. And I feel like when Rachel writes some of these meatier, heavy stuff, it doesn't last long enough for me. Immediately after they go into the bedroom and they have a sex scene, which I have thoughts on, but I'm like, stay in this moment, give me a little more. Like, I know it's a bonus chapter, but we're starting to get to the root of some of these.
One, the communication issues, but really the underlying reasons why Shane won't go public. And actually this, so this takes place, like we said, three weeks before the press conference in the epilogue.
Declan (34:42)
Yeah.
Silvan (34:43)
And this makes sense now in the epilogue, why Ilya gets a bit emotional and discloses a bit more about his mum. There's this...
yearning to want more, to disclose more, to share more. I think that's what it is. Ilya wants to share. Shame not so much. And what Ilya can share is part of him, so his mum.
Declan (35:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's not something
Silvan (35:12)
And this is
Declan (35:12)
stainless control over.
Silvan (35:14)
exactly, and this is what Ilya does in the press conference in the epilogue.
Declan (35:18)
Yeah. You can get the sense that Ilya is ready for this moment of change in his life. like he is ready for it to happen. He's ready to become a different person. he's ready to open up about his mum, he's ready to talk about the mental health, he's ready to he open up his relationship about his sexuality, he is willing to risk his career to pursue his version of himself, his true version that he has been withholding. And he is also
To know that he is being emotional in front of people. He is letting down the wall that he usually has, this bravado that he carries around. And he's presenting himself in a very vulnerable state in front of cameras. That is not a small step. He is so ready to change. And Shane is clinging on to the version of himself that he has been visualizing for years. And
I think this is when his neurodivergence actually really comes into the story properly, is this obsessive need to hold on to a past version of yourself. And while that's not a strictly neurodivergent trait, the way in which he tries to cope with things, with this like internal battle that he's having with himself.
is through obsessive behavior. And it just goes to show that they're both at different stages of development at this moment in time. Ilya has gone through the grief process a million times over. He has now had acceptance. He's willing to let go of things that he has had in the past that he so that he can then move on with his life and pursue his his new dream, which is shane. Shane is just not there yet.
He needs more time, he needs more incentive to to let this stuff go or to take a risk. and he is a rich or a a a risk adverse person. So that doesn't help.
Silvan (37:33)
I think you're right. And to quote a Hilary Duff album, Elia has gone through his metamorphosis.
Declan (37:40)
Yes, he is a beautiful butterfly. Dane is still in his cocoon.
Silvan (37:42)
He is
very much so hiding. my God, what great imagery. Yeah,
Declan (37:49)
Yeah, he's hiding.
Silvan (37:50)
who knew Hilary Duff would spur on a conversation like this?
Declan (37:54)
Ha
Silvan (37:56)
I need to talk about the sex in this chapter.
Okay, everyone get rid of the kids. So at least for the next 15 minutes.
Declan (38:07)
Yeah.
Silvan (38:09)
So the sex in this chapter, I was quite good. I have some thoughts and some questions for you. But when Rachel writes about Ilya licking certain parts of Shane's appendage, I was like, okay, this is getting steamy.
This is a bit new. They haven't talked about Shane's balls before. So, okay, let's go there. However, there were some parts in the sex scenes that gave me the ick. And I want to know what your perspective is on this. So, here we go. my gosh. Well, Ilya ran his tongue up the length of Shane's cock. You did say please. And then Shane says,
And could you take off your clothes, pretty please?
Twitchy please, it gives me the ick. I just couldn't. was like, mm, no, this is
on the verge of almost like baby talk in the bedroom.
Declan (39:10)
no no
Silvan (39:11)
Just, couldn't.
Declan (39:14)
Why did you say that? god. Yeah. I can't unhear that.
Silvan (39:17)
It's not like,
yeah, it's not like even like a please daddy kind of thing. It's yeah, right.
Declan (39:20)
Like would you please? Like, ooh No.
Silvan (39:27)
It's like all of a twist. Please can I have some more?
There was, I don't know. I want to hear if other people had the same reaction because I just, there was just a bit of me that was like, no, no.
And there's another moment where he says, fuck, Shane said breathlessly. We're really good at that.
Declan (39:55)
No. That's a bit cringe.
Silvan (39:57)
I don't,
it is right? It didn't give me the ache, but it felt a bit cringe.
Declan (40:04)
no. Yeah.
Silvan (40:06)
Like, I don't know anyone who's ever, mm, way. I think I might know one person who said something like that.
Declan (40:12)
no. Really? God.
Sorry for you.
Silvan (40:17)
Yeah, yeah, it didn't last long.
It didn't last long. Compliment, but didn't last long. there was, it just felt cringy. Like who in actual real life says something like that?
Declan (40:35)
I can confirm that nothing like that has ever been said around me. Maybe that's not a good thing for me to say, but
no. I think I would like completely comment at the moment and be like, Actually I need you to leave. I we we don't do that around here.
Silvan (40:55)
Right, right. And so I don't know whether it's just now Rachel is just writing freely and she just wants to write how she wants to write the sex scene now, because maybe there's no intention of putting this
Declan (41:03)
Yeah.
Silvan (41:06)
in the book and it did end up being in the book as a bonus chapter. And there's a part in this in this scene where they have sex without protection, so no condoms.
Now this is the first time in any of Rachel's books, so both Game Changer and Heated Rivalry, that any of the men have not had sex with a condom. And I actually thought, wow, I've really enjoyed the fact that she's put protection front and center in
Declan (41:34)
Yeah.
Silvan (41:35)
all of the sex scenes. And I didn't
Declan (41:37)
Yeah.
Silvan (41:38)
realize how obvious that was until they stopped having protection.
Declan (41:44)
Yeah, I like and this goes for all MM romance writers. They do typically, unless they're writing deliberately dark fiction, put an emphasis on consent and on protection. And that is actually very important because you are installing people habits for how sex should be viewed and how it should be taken part in. And so there is an element of responsibility to that.
especially because when it comes to sex in books, this is like supposed to be the positive stuff that you're you're presenting, like the best version of it and and a version of like that everyone wants. And it is important that you do have safe sex as a big element of that, especially in like earlier chapters for books and things like that. And you need to establish that there's an existing relationship before they go without. and that there's a trust there that's earned.
and yeah, I also I think Rachel in particular is really good with consent in her books in the way she presents it. the next book in particular, with Ryan and Fabian, consent is a big thing in that. I think me and Jen talk about that. but she does it really well in that. And I think she she has an awareness of it that I think is very good and it comes across well in her books.
Silvan (43:12)
And so I'm wondering then, what did you think about the fact that they don't use any condoms now because they're quote unquote an established couple?
Declan (43:21)
Yeah, I think that's fair. I think they're now exclusive. Mutually exclusive. They are not seeing anyone else. They're in a committed relationship. There's trust there, there's a agreement on monogamy. and why not? If you're clean, why not? So yeah. Happy happy day to Ilya and Shane.
Silvan (43:49)
Yeah, yeah, I hear that. I think from when I was a teenager, it's just been so drilled into us. Like you use protection for everything all the time. And so when it isn't being used, it's just like, okay, they're not using protection now.
This means
Declan (44:08)
Yeah.
Silvan (44:09)
something.
Declan (44:10)
It's it's like a statement of trust, essentially.
Silvan (44:13)
Yeah.
Declan (44:13)
So it is especially for people that grew up in our generation where, you know, safe sex is like taught like religiously. Well, ironically, it's taught religiously across schools. In the UK anyway. I don't know what it's like in our countries. I know in the States it's very you could get anything like as in
the education is very random and not consistent and typically can be interfered with by sort of religious views within your community. and a lot of people don't get good safe sex education, which is a real, real shame, especially for people that, you know, don't have that awareness and a race and particularly religious backgrounds and were quite sheltered and, you know, sex is
you know, a mystery to a lot of people and they don't really understand stuff like this. And so it's so important that people have access to safe sex education. And even if it's in a little bit of a raunchy book and you're encouraged to see it, then by all means definitely a a little a little way of helping to improve the world.
Silvan (45:26)
Absolutely. I think, especially in the UK, there is such an emphasis on safe sex education. And I think it's done particularly well. Obviously, it can vary a little bit, like you said, even in the UK. But on the whole, I think there is an emphasis and it's needed. I think what struck me is this is a book and it's fiction. And when I see things in real life and especially amongst gay men,
and gay men in the UK, I don't know about other countries. There isn't an emphasis or a huge emphasis on using protection actually, at least in the people that I'm surrounded by, not in a negative way at all, but stories that I hear from them. A lot of men are on PrEP. There isn't this huge emphasis on using protection, even though everyone knows why you should.
Declan (46:19)
Yeah.
Silvan (46:20)
And I think there is a lot of reliance on these drugs to shield you from maybe things like HIV, but they don't necessarily shield you from like gonorrhea, chlamydia, all these other STIs. So this actually doesn't fit in with, and I know this was written a while ago in a different country, but today's landscape, it doesn't look like that right now.
Declan (46:44)
Yeah, to be honest, I would prefer people include it in the book than chase after the realism of unfortunately what it's what it's like. because it presents good habits. So it does it is a good habit to use a condom when you're sleeping with someone that you are not in a relationship with. like and this is a real issue in the queer community at the moment. Like safe sex is paramount. Like if you how are you supposed to
Trust that you're enjoying a moment if you are worried that you're going to catch something off someone or you're going to have some horrible thing that you're going to be given antibiotics for. And the worst thing about it is these antibiotics are not even fixing a lot of this stuff anymore because they've been given out like they're, you know, just sweets at the shop. And now all these diseases are becoming so much stronger and more resistant to antibiotics. And the whole attitude towards it needs to change.
I think, you know, you have the AIDS epidemic. Just because someone creates a tablet to stop it it does not automatically mean that you cannot catch something that can cause you harm. Like, guys,
look after yourself and look after the people that you're also sharing your body with as well, because they're impacted if you happen to get sick with something and then you're passing it on. There needs to be a level of responsibility. And I think gay men especially should be fully aware of the dangers of unsafe sex and they should be practicing it a lot.
Silvan (48:15)
I completely agree. think we could have like a whole episode on this alone because it is such a big topic and there is such nuanced views. And I think all I will say on this further is that if anyone is pressuring you to not use protection, that is a sign that you stop and you leave. It is
Declan (48:35)
percent.
Silvan (48:35)
not worth going through with anything that you do not feel comfortable with.
Declan (48:41)
Yeah, it's gonna be much less embarrassing telling someone no and to leave than it is going to your doctor and saying, I think you have to give me this because I caught this off someone and because I was being reckless. Like just you know, be sensible.
Silvan (48:58)
And I wanted to come to the end of this chapter. The last couple of lines say, I'm ready, Shane said. His voice was clear and steady. Yes, Ilya said softly, me too. Now when we compare this to the end of chapter 27, the last two lines are, Shane raced past him to get to the stairs. Only if you beat me. Ilya laughed. Game fucking on, Hollander.
Declan (49:23)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (49:26)
I know this isn't the end of the book, but I feel like this was still a good ending to the bonus chapter.
Declan (49:36)
I think this actually for me lends the idea that this was originally supposed to be the ending. Because this ending makes more sense to me than, you know, the ending of the book as we get it, not the epilogue of course. there should be a melancholy to the end of their book because they're still not out. They're still not able to love and live freely.
And that idea of like I'm ready to see where this goes, I'm ready to to you know live my life. There is a nice tone to that. I like that tone a bit better than the sort of playful childishness of the the end of the book. but I can see why an editor might have taken out so much of this chapter and not wanted it like that. because the ending is
I think the best part of this chapter. I think the rest of it can be a bit waffly, a bit frustrating, and doesn't really lent much to anyone in the sort of chapter besides perhaps Ilya, and it just sort of makes Hayden look bad. so yeah, it's very mixed bag this chapter, I think, but it's still an enjoyable bit of media, a a little bit of enjoyment for the universe.
That's Rachel's buildup so far, so yeah, I'll I'll take it at face value. It's just a fun little thing.
Silvan (51:09)
I agree. And you talked about sort of this being a segue into the long game. Would you necessarily read it in that order or would you go because the next book is tough guy, technically?
Declan (51:23)
no, you need to read the book. I I am a big fan of reading the media in the order that the author brought it out in. So if the author published a book, you read the book and then the next one that they publish and you just move on that way. Because you know when they're writing it originally, they are not writing from the hindsight of always knowing where they're going. And so
If you keep on switching between versions of the offer, an offer who's more experienced and more you know more consistent as they as they write more, you're gonna find it jarring because you're gonna get a really great version of them that's able to write fantastically in like some prequel. And then you'll go to a book that they did way in the past and it's like, this person's like okay, this is like a different writer.
And
that yarring experience is something that really throws me off whenever I like try to read book series and stuff that are in like chronological order rather than the order of release. especially for newer offers. It just doesn't really work that well for me. So no, stick to the release order, enjoy your little chapter, and then move on to Tough Guy because Ryan and Fabian are waiting for you and they're fantastic. And they just announced
The actors as well for Tough Guy and my
Silvan (52:51)
They did.
Declan (52:52)
god, they're perfect. No nuts.
Silvan (52:55)
So that's interesting because there's a very different reaction I see online from this casting for Tough Guy than for Harris and Troy that happened a couple of weeks ago.
Declan (53:05)
Yeah. And I think a lot of it is to do with the fact that these characters look very, very alike their book counterparts. whereas the character who plays Harris is on the slimmer side and he's also not white. which seemed to bother people. Which, you know, I say trust in Jacob Tierney.
I think if the quality of the acting is there, you know, we'll just see what happens.
Silvan (53:43)
Yeah. And a really nice opportunity to let everyone know that we will be covering Tough Guy next.
Declan (53:51)
yes, so we will be moving on to Tough Guy next. So that's Hate Rivalry wrapped up for now. Obviously, season two is filming. We will be coming back to it and we'll be re examining parts of the book and how it's portrayed here. but in the meantime, we're going to be enjoying the next one in the series. Tough guy is for some people their favorite.
They particularly like the characters of Ryan and Fabian and the depictions of mental health in it. so I'm really excited to talk about that one. so I am it's one of my favorites out of the entire collection. so yeah, I'm looking forward to that.
Yes. So we started a Patreon just to give people the opportunity to support us. we really enjoy making this content and we have a lot of fun with it and we have fun interacting with everyone. and we would really like to be able to expand it out to do more. but there's the practicalities of our lives and we commit a lot of time to this. Sylvain and I both have full-time jobs and we also study too. so
Between editing, recording, doing videos and stuff like that, there it is very time consuming. and obviously it incurs its own costs too. So if you would like to support us in any way and give us a little hand with that, then feel free to follow us and subscribe on Patreon. it would be much appreciated. We will leave a link in the description so that you can follow it to the Patreon page. but yeah, it would be fantastic if you would do that for us. if not.
Don't worry, you'll still get the same content for now. But there will be some bonus things that you'll be able to get in the Patreon that you won't be able to get outside of it. So there is that element. but
Silvan (55:33)
Yeah.
Declan (55:34)
yeah.
Silvan (55:35)
There's no undue pressure on people to have to donate or anything like that. It's just there
Declan (55:37)
No. No.
Silvan (55:40)
if you want to, because people have requested that, why don't you have a Patreon? And that's sort of what spurred that on. But obviously don't feel pressured into, you know, donating or subscribing to the Patreon if you're experiencing any kind of financial hardship or anything like that.
Declan (55:54)
definitely not. No. Only if it is something that you're able to do. don't yeah, don't do it if you cannot afford it. Times are tough. Cost of living crisis basically everywhere in the Western Hemisphere. but if you can, we'd be grateful. Thank you very much.
But that's us. If you enjoyed this episode or the previous episodes that we've done, and if you're excited for more content, then like, share, and subscribe. And don't forget to hit us up on our social medias. Obviously, we have Instagram. Silva and I both have our own separate accounts, but there's also my TikTok account as well, and Sylvan's TikTok account. So for me, if you want to see more reviews and book recommendations, particularly MM Romance.
then check me out there. And Sylvan also has another podcast as well that he does. so if that's something that interests you then check that out as well. But we'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening.