Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to Chapter and Verse! In this powerful debut episode, Jill shares her raw testimony of growing up in Flint, Michigan, in a tiny 25-person Missionary Baptist church where faith meant following rules rather than building relationship.
A faith-forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. Hosts Kerrye and Jill tell stories about the Bible, talk about their faith, and dig into what it looks like to follow God through the ordinary chaos of everyday, imperfect life. Real conversations. Real stories. No pretending to have it all together. Pull up a chair, turn the page, and let's go.
Do you have the hiccups? No, no. Got water. All right, it's already recording, but it'll all be edited out. Okay. Are you waiting the whole time? Okay. Okay. Do you want me to read the beginning? Yeah. Do you have the. The final? I. I don't want to. If I feel like. If I'm going to be, like, the guest. You should do it. I don't know. Can you hear us? Ta t? I don't want you to hear us now. I can't talk. Yes, you can. This is me. Tell. We're breaking. Stop listening. You know you can hear us. Yes, you can. I don't believe it. I think he had the headphones on when I came in. Okay, but do we use last names? I don't want to. So we're just Jill and Carrie? Yeah. Okay, well, do you have the. I'll send it to you. You're saying it. The whole thing. What whole thing? That you're listening to. Chapter immersed. Yep. You do the whole intro. Okay, here we go. So hold on. If you're doing the intro, we need to make sure the camera goes back and forth based on who's speaking. Oh, okay. So. Okay, here we go. Why? Hey, everyone, you're listening to chapter and verse. This is a Faith Forward pot. Nope. Hold on. Okay. Hey, everyone, you're listening to chapter and verse. This is a Faith Forward podcast for people who love Jesus, but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. We tell stories about the Bible and talk about our faith and just what it looks like. Everyday, ordinary chaos in with not perfect people. And we're ready. So let's turn the page. Today, I'm Carrie and this is. I'm Jill. Yes. And today we're going to be talking about a chapter out of Jill's life. So she's gonna be our very first guest on chapter and verse. We're breaking it in. Like, seriously? Yeah. Like, we're jumping right in. Jump right in. We're gonna be vulnerable, and my therapist is going to be so proud of me. Okay, so today we're going to talk about how Jill, basically, how did you. Let's start with your childhood, Jill. What was your childhood like? And if you can't tell, Jill grew up in the north. But we're not going to hold that against her. No, we're not. Because hopefully our listening audience will eventually or even immediately include people in the north and all kinds of other places. So has the north people love Jesus, too? Some of them. Okay. Some of them. All right, Jill, tell US where you grew up. So I grew up in Flint, Michigan. You might have heard of it via the Flint water crisis. That's probably the most recent scandalous thing that Flint has made a name for itself with. It's a tough place to grow up, I think. Well, from what you've said, I mean. It was a. I didn't feel a tough world until I reached, you know, later teens and adulthood that I realized like, oh, this is a hard place. But it's a good hard, I think like the people are seasoned and weathered and they're great for the most part. Yes. And you live there. How long before you so saw the light and came to Arkansas? I didn't see the light. I saw my husband and said, well if he's there then that's where I want to be. But so I, I was there until I got married when I was 22. So I was there for 22 years. Lived there my whole life in Flint and I've been here for about 20 years now. Well, we're happy to have you. I have to tell this real quick. Okay. Because she is from the north and she's a different breed than us southerners. But I went, I took her very first Black Friday shopping experience and I. It's not how it is now. There was no online stuff. This was like back in the day. Yeah. This was when like Black Friday shopping was dangerous. It was the wild and this was my first ever experience. So I thought I'm going to take Jill cuz she can be like, oh, she'll have a good time. But also maybe she can be like my bodyguard type of thing. So I took her and it was, it was rough. I had a big clock in my hand I think and she had. You had some stuff for me, I think like it was wild but there you just when they used to like really block off sections and you couldn't hardly walk through it. And we were trying to get to the checkout and we were just at a standstill of like it was like. A log jam just packed in like sardines. Trying to get through the garden center door at Walmart. Yes. Like going from the main section into the garden center and we were just. Shoulder to shoulder, just going both ways. And I was like we're not going anywhere. And so mad because there was an, there was an officer because you know they, they hire the off duty officers. Yeah, they used to, to be, I, I guess now just you know, a presence because this guy was not assisting in any way, shape or form. It is Just standing there watching us. Just apparently just like, just stand. Because no one would move. Yeah, because we were stuck. Anyway, so Jill spoke up. She'd had enough. And she was like, okay, everybody, this, this part needs to move this way. And this part needs to move this way. And she was doing hand motions and everything. And I know everybody's thinking I'm. I don't even know what you called yourself. I know everybody's thinking I'm a. I don't know. You didn't said that. I know that you're all calling me bad words in your head right now. But at least I'm getting things moving. And people started moving and I was just hiding behind that big clock. I was. I still have that clock, by the way. And I was just like, I'm not here, I'm not here, I'm not here, I'm not here. And then this lady that was moving opposite direction of me, she just kind of leaned into me. She goes, is she from the north? And I was like, yes, she is. But you know what? I got this on. You did, you did. Okay, so back to your story. So you grew up in Flint, Michigan with your dad, mom, three sisters, you're the middle. Two sisters. I'm sorry, two sisters, you're the middle child. And I want to know like, what was your first experience with God? Well, I grew up in church, so I don't really remember a time where I didn't know about God. Like, I grew up in Sunday school and Bible classes and all the things. I grew up missionary, Baptist. And the church that I grew up in was tiny. I'm talking tiny, 25 people. The largest congregation that I ever remember it having was maybe 30 to 40 people. And it just got smaller from there. It does not exist anymore. The church has since closed its doors, which is sad. But also, I don't understand how they. I don't know how they lasted as long as they did. I mean, I guess I do because it was my parents tithe that kept. Them running and they did so much in the church for the church. Yeah. But we, we definitely grew up as servants of the church. You learned at an early age. Yeah, yeah. We mowed the lawn. I learned how to drive on a 1940s tractor, mowing the church lawn because it was like a 5 acre plot and we just did it and it was excellent. So you grew up in church and did you ever. I mean, I'll just use the church churchy expressions. Did you ever get saved? And so I did get saved when I was about 9, 8 or 9 years old. That's, like, when I realized I was a sinner and Jesus died on the cross so that I could go to heaven. Like, that was when I. I do think that I had, like, a real experience with God in that moment. It wasn't just like, head knowledge. Like, I do think that I had a spiritual moment, but the aftermath for that was very dogmatic. It was very much, here are the rules. Like, now that you've had this experience. I mean, don't get it twisted. I was nine. I had all the rules beforehand, too. But now it was like, you follow the rules because you love Jesus, which is great, except that's not what it's about. You know, it's not about rules. It's about a relationship. And I'm not saying this about the Missionary Baptist denomination, just your experience. My experience in this particular Missionary Baptist Church was, was that the discipleship for young, new congregants, you know, new believers, was not there. It was very much, you memorize Bible verses because you were supposed to memorize the Bible. But it. It wasn't about, like, how is the Bible real to you? This is how God speaks to you. It was just like, this is what the Bible says. This is the rule onward. That's just what we did. So that. That was my experience from 8 or 9. I can't remember which. I wish I did, but I don't all the way through my early collegiate days. And you lived in a household where basically, from what? And we can get into this in later episodes. Oh, and I'm sure we will. Where your dad kind of was the. Called the shots for everything, and he was in control of the family. And what, what you did, like, you were very. He was very strict. Like, just, you're. If you're living in my house, you're going, oh, yeah. There was no. There was no, I don't want to go to church today. Right. I mean, like, if you dared to mention it, you were very quickly told, I don't care, we're going and you're coming with us. Which is interesting because Dan, dad did not go to church with us until I was probably 7. So my mom and the three girls, like, we all got up and went to church every week, and dad stayed home. And we were like, why does dad get to stay home? You know? And then, I mean, knowing what I know now, at the time, I did not know this. Like, it. It was like he just decided to come to church one day, and he was like, he went from Sleeping in and enjoying his, you know, Sunday morning. All the things to Uber Christian. We are at the church every single time the doors are open. We are the cleaners of the church. We are the cookers of the potlucks. We are the gardeners. We are, like, all of the things all in. Yes. Dad became a deacon. Mom was the church treasurer. Like, we were. We ran the church, but we weren't. There was no, like, pastoral positions or anything like that. Right. And by dad being a deacon, I mean, like, they ordained him as a deacon. There wasn't, like, a board that anybody sat on or anything. It was like the whole church membership voted on all of the things. No business was done outside of every member getting a voice. So that was a little different. Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna skip forward to. So you're in college and he's still insisting. Well, church and. Yeah, but how's your spiritual life at this point? So my spiritual life at this point took a. It took a turn the first month of my first semester of college. So my very best friend through high school, her name was Robin Brown, and she was great and wonderful, and she was murdered five days before I turned 18. And it was devastating, obviously, so with that, because I only had this very Follow the rules and, you know, no relationship. Really? You have no relationship? No. Like, there wasn't a foundation. There was like. Well, there was a foundation, but it was just rules. There was a foundation, but there was no rebar in the foundation. So it was just. It would crumble at, like, the slightest thing, which it did. So, I mean, not that the murder of your best friend is the slightest thing, but it definitely just crumbled. So. And it had a little bit of help. It wasn't just the murder. The gentleman who was pastoring the church. At the time. Made a comment at the funeral for Robin that he said that she must have done something to deserve it, because God doesn't let things happen to people that they don't read Job. Right. I just am like. Or Joseph. Joseph spent time in prison for a crime he didn't commit. So when he said that to your face. To my face, I. Like, I was a child, first of all. I mean, I was 18 years old, and I was appalled. And then I just. It was like the flip of a switch I just turned off. I was like, God, if this is your guy and this is what he's saying, I'm out. Like, right then. Conscious decision, I'm out. Yeah, well, let's go. I know people are wondering, how did this murder happen and what happened? If you don't care to talk about it, I don't. Without getting too, like, you know, crime podcasty kind of into it. Like, Robin and I and several of our friends all worked at, like, the little local McDonald's. One of them because Flint had, you know, lots. But we worked at the little local McDonald's, and Robin had gone away to school for a minute, decided she hated it, and came back to Flint. So she was not in school with us at the time she was going to start at the second semester. So she agreed to go out to breakfast with one of our co workers. His name was Josh. Did you. Did y' all know him? We knew of him. Like, we had worked with him, but we were not close. Like, he was not part of our crew and at all. And to be frank, like, if I saw him in a lineup right now, I don't know that I could identify him. I do remember thinking, why? Like, I. I remember thinking, why are you going to breakfast with Josh? Like, he was not impressive to me. But I think Robin, she was. She was a kind girl, and she had nothing else to do. Like, why not go to breakfast? You know? So she decided to go to breakfast. They went to breakfast. And while at breakfast, from what I understand, he suggested that they get married and quick. Yeah, yeah. First. First outing together. Like, I don't even know if Robin knew that he considered this a date. Um, but he suggested they get married. She laughed because how preposterous. You know, how absurd. And quickly realized, like, oh, he might be serious about this. And then was like, no, like, what? So he played it off. They decided to leave. Apparently, they had driven together to the restaurant, and he took her out to a neighboring town. He took her to Lapeer, Michigan, and stabbed her 17 times. And then dumped her in the ditch and left. So her parents were looking for her later. We were all. Now I don't even remember when. Is this before cell phones? Oh, 100. It was 1997. What did you have? Yeah, like, as just regular phones. No regular phones, no cell phones. Pagers were out, but none of us really carried them. Yeah, I think one of us might have had a car phone, but not, like, a cell phone. Cell phone. So, you know, Robin's mom called me later that night, and we were all really mad because we had had plans and she didn't show up for the plans. So we were talking all kinds of smack about her that night. We were like, are you kidding me? How ridiculous. You know, she's such a Jerk. And. And then Robin's mom called. About what time did she call you? Do you remember? It was. It was night. Like, I. It was after dinner. And I remember being surprised that she was calling that late, but in hindsight, it probably was like, 9:30 or 10. Yeah. But, you know, our house phone just didn't ring it that hour. How that. How rude people to call that late. My goodness, how times have changed. Definitely. So she called and asked if I knew where she was, and I was like, no, she was actually supposed to meet up with us. And she didn't. Last I heard, she went to breakfast with Josh. And she was like, okay, well, if you hear from her, please, please let us know. And I was like, of course. Then were you worried? Yeah, I mean, a little bit. I thought it was weird. I. It was definitely unlike Robin, but I wasn't. I didn't immediately jump to, like, oh, my gosh, something must be wrong. I just thought, well, she must be having a great time. Like, what is happening? How weird that she's not checking in, you know? Gosh. So the next day, I was at the gym working out with another friend of ours. And my boyfriend at the time came to the gym, which was unusual because he was still in high school. He was younger than I was, so he was still in high school. And I thought it was odd that he was at the gym. Like, he'd come to the college to find me. And so I was like, what is happening? And my friend that I was with was irritated because he did not particularly enjoy my boyfriend. And he was like, why does he have to be here? I was like, I mean, why not? And then he is actually the one that told us that they had found Robin and that she had been murdered and all of that. So tough. Yeah, it was surreal. It was definitely surreal. And it was. There were some weaponizing. There was some weaponizing of faith around that time as well. Like in the moment. I don't think I could have articulated that. I don't even know if that was even terminology available at the time. But there was certainly an attitude of, like, if. If you're a Christian, you'll see her again. Right. So why be sad? Yeah. Like, don't feel feelings. You can't feel feelings. Even though it. It's fully appropriate to be sad if someone is murdered. Yeah. It's fully appropriate to be sad anyway. But especially if your friend is killed. Yeah. So you're at her funeral and the pastor says that. And then what happened with your life, like, after that? Like, oh, I'm sure you're still expected to go to church. I certainly am still expected to go to church, but at this point, it becomes a complete and utter facade. I. I spent all of the time, like, you would think I would just, like, you know, doodle and. Yeah, just, you know, sleep or whatever through sermons. But instead I decided to count mistakes. Like, I just wanted to tear into this man. And. And I did. Like, there were definitely mistakes that I would find and then argue with my dad about later. How did he handle that? He tried his best to defend the pastor because, you know, your pastor is supposed to know. They're supposed to know what's happening. But my dad was a smart guy. Yeah. I didn't know him well, just met him once, but yeah, he was smart. Yeah. I mean, dad was a smart guy and he. He could accept when other people were wrong, but he definitely tried to defend. He would try to offer the benefit of the doubt and say, well, he. He misspoke. I'm like, he's telling people, like, God's talking to him. God doesn't misspeak. Right. You know, and there were some very pointed conversations, and he would be like, knock it off. Know, that would just be it. That would be the end of it. So that was. That was interesting. But, yeah, I definitely did not. I didn't read my Bible. I didn't pray. I didn't do anything at that point. I was just like, nope. And I got involved in. Not involved in anything. Like, I was still pretty straight laced. I'm a rule follower. Just because, as. I mean, my therapist would say, because you have shame and. And just tons of it in your body, and you're just not allowed to do anything wrong. So I would follow the rules, but I wasn't following biblical rules and regulations and guidelines and things like that. There was absolutely no relationship at all. And I would make conscious efforts to not put myself in situations where I felt like God was allowing himself to kind of show. Yeah. And how long did that go, Owen? That went on for a full year. And there were certainly things that took place during that year which might. We might get into in future episodes as well. Just that help to kind of showcase how far I really allowed myself to get. Like, there were no drugs or alcohol or anything like that, but there were. There were definitely some decisions that I made that were not lining up with the word whatsoever and that I certainly regret. Excuse me. Edit that. Yeah, edit that out while we're editing. Yeah. Want to take a drink? Okay. Yes. So now you're 19. Yep. And tell me about your circle of friends and is the boyfriend still there? So. No, we can talk about that later because a story there too. Yes. Right before I turned 19, we broke up, so. So he's out of the picture. I have found a whole new kind of crew of friends. Are you still in college at this point? Okay. Yep. So I'm in college. I'm hanging out with a whole new group of friends and I kind of have two separate groups. I have this group that I found as I separated myself from God. And then I have this other group that just kind of happened organically in class. Yeah. So the second group, the. The ones that I found in class, they. We just were chatting and we were talking about like faith and how you grew up and all the things. And we were discussing the various religions that we were. And we were all separate denominations of Christian. So my one girlfriend, her name. Well, do we want to do. It's up to you. Would you care friend? I don't. I don't think that she would. There's nothing. Okay, so edit that out. Tell. So my friend Megan, she was in a non denominational charismatic church at the time. I was missionary Baptist, even though I was not ministering missionary. Like I was still attending the church, but. And that was the religious dogma that I knew. And then Finn was Lutheran, so we all decided that we would try each other's churches. So we, we decided mine would be first because I knew mine was the dullest and it. We just needed to get it over with. Yeah. So we went and they agreed. They were like, holy smokes, this is real bad. How do you do this? How do you come here every week? And I'm like, I just look for the mistakes. Like, I just count this guy's mistakes. He's awful. And. And they're like, yeah, but there's also no one here, you know? And I'm like, yeah, there's no one here. So. So I bet was your church, like so excited you brought visitors? Um, you know, church is some that sometimes that small, they're like, oh, we have visitors. Were they friendly? They were not. That's kind of the thing. Like it. They almost had a what's wrong with you? Why are you here? Kind of attitude. And it just was like par for the course for me, you know, I was like, and. And you're not even friendly. Like, I could have convinced these two suckers to come with me every week. But instead you were jerks, you know? So. Yeah, it was. It was interesting. So Then we decided we were going to go to Megan's church. So hers was the following week. And then non denomination. She was non denominational. Charismatic. Okay. And so we went. And I remember thinking. And I. When I say charismatic, I mean charisma. I mean tambourine. I mean the whole thing. And it was relatively. She tried to prepare you, like, hey, mine's kind of wild and it's gonna be upbeat or. I don't remember that. I. I feel like she just said, it's not like yours. Right. It's not like yours at all. And I was like, well, thank God, you know, like, it can't be bad then. Right? So I remember Finn, who was Lutheran, was like, we have seen one extreme and the other wowzers. He. He was very taken aback by the tambourine. He just. He was just very straight laced. Very straight laced. He would frequently talk about how the Lutherans were getting a little bit too out of control for him. He's a funny dude. But so we ended up going there and I remember thinking, oh, goodness, there are people who really enjoy this, like I. Yeah. Church, the fellowship, and, and that they are excited about their faith. It wasn't just like, oh, I like the people that are here and the music is cool. They were really about Jesus. And I had not experienced that, even though I believed in Jesus. And I had all this head knowledge of what the Bible says and what you're supposed to believe and how all of that went down. But there was no excitement and there never was. Even when I got saved, there was no excitement about it. Yeah. So it was. It was very, very different and new and a whole experience. Were they friendly? They were very friendly. That's good. Very, very friendly. So I just was like, I'm going back to Megan's church. Like, Finn, sorry, the Lutherans are out. Like, we never even went to Finn's Lutheran. Did he ever come back to Megan's? He did a couple of times. He did, but he just. That's when he was like, listen, the Lutherans are a little too wild for me sometimes. And this is just too much. I was like, well, I like it. So I kept going to Megan's church. And that is really where I learned about relationship instead of rules. Yeah. I think everybody starts out well. I mean, I feel like everybody starts out with either rules or fear. Yeah. Probably like, I don't want to go to hell, so I'm gonna believe this. Yeah. And then as you grow in your. In your faith, as you grow with your relationship, you realize it's about so much more than just escaping hell, but. Right. Well. So how long did you go there before you realized, like, I'm, I'm gonna be all in? And like, what. How did that take place? So, I mean, it was probably a couple of months of regular attendance because I still had to go to church. Well, did you. So did you have to go to your dad's church or just a church? And what did he think about that? Like, what did your parents think? So my mom never really said anything one way or the other. I think mom just was thinking, if you're going to church, I don't care. Yeah. Although maybe she had serious feelings about it and she just never expressed those to me. I don't know. And now she's got dementia and I can't ask her because she'll just lie. But dad, dad was not thrilled with the idea of me going to a non denominational charismatic church. They spoke in tongues. Dad didn't agree with that. But my dad's little brother Greg went to an assembly of God church in. I don't. I don't know what town it was in, but he lived in Waukegan, Illinois, so somewhere around there. So he was in it. And my dad knew that my Uncle Greg was still going to heaven and was all right. So dad wasn't really gonna push the envelope too much with me. And so he basically was just like, as long as she's going to church, I'm not gonna rock the boat. Do you want to, like, tell our. Our listening audience about what your dad believed? Oh, my God. I just think you should tell. You mean his special brand of crazy, like. Yes. So listen, full disclosure. I know that there is nothing in the Bible that substantiates any of the next things that I'm going to say now that we've said that my dad believed that if you did not attend his specific church, the four walls of the church that he himself attended, then at the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven, you didn't get to sit next to Jesus. So there's that one. There's that special kind of crazy. He also told me that he told me I was pregnant with Owen and I was experiencing some. Or. No, it was. I was pregnant with Chloe and I was having some gallstones and ended up having to have my gallbladder taken out while I was pregnant with her. And it was a whole thing. And my dad called me up and told me that he just really felt it necessary to explain to me that he was pretty sure the reason I was dealing with the gallstones is because I was taking communion in a non scriptural church, meaning not his church. Were you still living in Michigan at this time? No, I was. So. Yeah. So what was I supposed to do? Yeah, what are you supposed to do? I guess I just don't take communion. Then. I don't know. And then fast forward, you know, five, six years or whatever, and my dad has some kidney stones. And my husband looks at me and is like, wonder where he's been taking communion. And I just laughed and was like, I don't know. But apparently he's got some trouble. He's got some stuff. And so I just want to say, did you continue like a normal relationship with your dad? Yes, yes. I think that's really important. Even though, you know, I mean, we certainly had some. Some heated discussions, some pointed discussions, and there were definite moments where we just had to look at each other and say, I disagree. And, you know, what. What works for you, works for you. And what works for me works for me. And I guess when we get to heaven, we'll find out. Yeah. You know, if you're. I remember him telling me that I wasn't going to get to sit next to Jesus at the marriage Supper of the lamb. And I remember telling him, I guess that'll just have to be what happens. I'm just going to be happy to be there. Yeah, I don't have to sit next to Jesus. And he was like, well, I want to sit next to Jesus. Picture him sitting. Anyway, I figured he's gonna. He's gonna like go talk to everybody. I'm like, isn't he omnipresent? Anyway, so that's like a running bag. I just had to. I just had to bring it out. So. All right, so you've been attending Megan's church for a couple months, and then what happens? Well, I joined the youth group, which, even though I was in college, it. The church was small enough. I mean, it was larger than the Baptist church I was going to, but it was small enough that we had like a combined youth group where basically everybody from seventh grade all the way up until you were married, essentially, like you were in the same little group. And it worked out. There were siblings, it was fine. So I was part of the youth group. We had gone out to dinner and they mentioned something about like, once saved, always saved, and how foolish that is. And yeah, I was like, wait a minute, because, you know, my Bible background, my rules background, all of that flashed up before me and I was like, what do you Mean, you can lose your salvation? What are you talking about? And they were like, yeah. And then that was it. And I was like, but. And I started listing out chapter and verse of like, where God's word says that his sheep are in his hand and no one can take them out of it. Like, what are you talking about? And they just stared at me like I was crazy. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean you believe this? And so we ended up just like, okay, I guess we believe differently. And they were confused about why I would believe that you would never lose your salvation. And I was confused about why would you lose. Doesn't make sense to me. So the next. The next week at youth group, the youth pastors are like, so we heard about an incident. And I'm like, oh, no. My immediate thought is, you're in trouble. Like, you're the one that rocked this boat, girl. Like, get ready. And they were great about it, though. They were like, here's why we believe that, you know, it's not so much like your salvation will be stripped from you, as much as you can walk away from God. And if you choose to walk away from God, then you are choosing to not go to heaven with him. That's. That's kind of where. How they explained it a little bit, but they were like, we are more concerned with the fact that none of y' all could defend why you believe what you believe. And I was like, oh, they're in trouble. I felt much better. Yeah. So that part was. Was interesting. But after that, that was really our icebreaker as to, oh, she's going to be the one that asks lots of questions and needs it all explained and it has to make sense and it needs to be logical and line up. And for the most part, it did, you know, so we were, you know, fast forward a month or two after that. We were just having like a prayer night. And, you know, prior to this, you know, this. This church is in a suburb of Flint called Burton. And, you know, I didn't want to be the girl who had her friend killed. You know, like, when you're. When you're that young, you want to be as close to anonymous or just normal or not special. Yeah. Or at least. And they probably heard about murders in Flint all the time. All the time. I mean, so legitimately they were like the number one, like, murder capital of the country for like several years in a row. We went back and forth with Flint, Detroit, St. Louis, and I think Memphis. Those four went. Now, I'd like to. I don't even know. I'm going to look it up while you're talking. Go ahead. So we're not literal. All right, go ahead. Sorry. It'll be Pine Bluff. So we were at a prayer meeting, and I had not told anybody about Robin and the situation with her and all of that. And I ended up at prayer night, and I was just praying about all the things, and I was really struggling with just, you know, how do I. How do I move forward with this? What do I do? And the youth pastor's wife came up and was praying for me, and she just kind of leaned in and she said, I don't know what this means. And this was my first experience with, like, a word from the Lord. I mean, I had seen them given in church at that point, because I'd been there several months, but. But this was the first one that had ever been given to me. And she said, I don't know what this means, but. But God says, you need to let Robin go. And I don't. I don't know. Does that mean anything to you? And, I mean, she called her by name. She called her by name. And that's a. That's a step of faith on her part. I mean, really, like, knowing now I'm like, I don't know what this is. And she. She just kind of looked at me, and I feel like she almost said, does that resonate? But I had burst into tears. And, I mean, you know me. Yeah, I'm not a liar. No, I've always joked, like, if Jill heard that I passed away, she'd be like, oh, that's a shame. And she would just keep on, take charge of all the arrangements. It's really a shame. That's a shame. Okay, we've got work to do. But, yeah, I mean, I can count on one hand and not use all the fingers. How many times I've seen you cry and I've known you for. I don't know. Owen's 18, so. Yeah, about that. Yeah, 18 years. So I just burst into tears and was like. At that point, she's like, oh, yeah, it definitely resonates. So I just knew, like, all of the junk that I had tried to. Tried to believe was about God, about God, about how he felt about me, about how he felt about just creation in general. Like, I remember. I remember there were these things, like, these little notebooks that would be, like, about me kind of notebooks, and you would, like, fill them out about, like, various things that you believe or what you're up to. It was sort of like a diary, but not really. It was more question and answer, I guess. And one of them was, like, when you die. Blank. And I was like, the end. And that was it. Like, I tried so hard to believe that it was just done. Like. And I couldn't. I couldn't let go of it. Couldn't let go of it. And it was. It was an interesting phenomenon to have the creator of the world give you a specific word to put your heart at ease and say, it's all right. We'll get past this. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I wish I could have been there, Jill. No, you don't. It was real ugly. I was ugly crying. I do wish I could have been. Well, that's. I mean, it's a. And then you just kept growing from there. And you've never. Oh, no. Doubted that he exists and exists for a reason. And. Yeah. Yeah, there have definitely been moments where I'm like, what are you doing? And the interesting thing is, you know, I had grown up my whole life being told that God talks to pastors, but he doesn't talk to us. He. He talks to us. But you have to find what in the Bible can you not manipulate, but utilize for your own situation that there. You might. You might be able to find that. But if not, you just have to suffer. Like, just suffer. There wasn't a personal situation. And that if God were to speak, it would be very prim, very proper, very. You know, I. I just view, like, a choir on, like, the mountaintop. Like, oh. You know, and then just. And that's not how he talks to Jill. That is not how he talks to me. He talks to me like I am. Just from Flint, Michigan. Yes. Yes. He will meet you where you are. And he smacks my hand a lot and is like, girl, what are you doing? Yeah, knock it off. Stop it. And he may talk prim and proper to some people, because that's what they need. Exactly. I guess that's not. That's not the Jesus that hangs out with me. But Jesus that hangs out with me is definitely like, oh, my goodness. Rolling his eyes at me. Like, here we go again. Like, I've told you this over and over. When are you gonna listen? Yeah, that's what I get. Oh, that is. I mean, I'm. I know that you're gonna share many more chapters and verses from your life, but that's. I mean, I've heard that story a lot, but I always love to hear it because I like to hear when people Realize it's about a relationship and not just set of rules. And like, you're like your best friend, you know, like you're gonna get you. You need to have conversations with God, like, and once you start hearing his voice, it's hard not to hear his voice. Exactly. So I've, I've been asked a lot by kids because I'm around kids a lot, like, how do you know if it's God? It's hard to explain because how it's just a. It's just a friendship and you just know his voice. You start hearing his voice and then you can't not hear it. You know, you can't, you can cover it up for sure. Like keep things going in your life. And straight up say, I, I don't. Care, I don't want to listen. Yeah. Like I, I've heard this, but I am going to say no. And then he backs off. Yeah. To me in my life, it's like he backs off with his arms folded, like, okay, well eventually you're going to come and listen with me. It straight up is like a, A hand up, like, well, here we go. All right, you wanna, you want to try? Be my guest. Give it a shot. See you in a little bit. Yep. When that goes real wrong, you can come back and tell me. Oh, no. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah. Why is it like this? And he's like, because you didn't do what I said. Okay, we're gonna take a break. Take a break. Two minutes. What? What? Is there something else you left out? I don't know. Do you want me to talk about my short. Yeah, Bunny, like how I decided the relationship? Well then what do we do next week? Okay. Everybody'S calling me. Sorry. I can have an hour to myself. Okay, we're starting back. Okay. So I'll just give a brief. Mine is when I realized that it was about relationship and not rules, I guess, and I wouldn't have put it that way like you did, but I was probably 12 or 13 maybe, but I grew up in church as well. Mostly assembly of God, some non denominational, but that, that kind of beliefs. And I was home in the summer. Both my parents worked at sheriff's office. And. They had different shifts at that time. I have one brother and he's a little bit older than me. I'm talking about age because that's not. Because we don't talk about age. That's not this podcast. So we're not talking about age anyway, but home in the summer. And one of my favorite Things to do was just go outside and lay in, you know, lawn chair and read. Well, I had done that in the afternoon. Came in, and no one was home. And I was like, oh, this is weird. Nobody told me that they were. That a normal thing for them. Did they normally, like, pop their head out and say, yeah, if they were. If they were leaving. Yeah. And usually they would leave Mickey and me home, like we could be trusted for the most part. And so went outside, and I remember looking and seeing both my parents. Vehicles there. And I was like, okay. Went through the whole house. Not a big house. And like, nobody's there. And of course, my. I thought, I'm gonna pick up the phone. I feel like the rapture has happened. And I didn't go. And I'm like, researching my mind. So the first thought you had was rapture? Well, because I grew up saying being in fear, I guess, of that, not making the rapture. Did this also. Was this around the same time? Had you watched the movie? I can't remember the movie. The one with the folded clothes and the rapture. And what is that movie? The old. Old was like a distant thunder. Yes. Yes. I don't even mind. I can't. That's gonna bring up some really sorry ptsd. I. I have images that, you know, they would show that in church. I'm like, why now? I'm like, why would you. I can't. I can't. I cannot. Anyway, so, yeah, I'm like. So I pick up the phone, call my aunt first, because she's like my grandmother in town, and she did not answer. And she's like, oh, super Christian woman. And if. If anybody's going, she goes, gonna be her. Then I called a friend, and I was like, this is a shot in the dark. Like, I don't know if she's gonna go. Who knows? But she was not answering. I may have called one the person. I don't remember, because this is a fear moment. So it's hard to. Like, my mind was just racing, and I thought, okay, I guess call the sheriff's office and just. I don't know what I would plan to say. I just called it, and I was like. And I, you know, I'm not gonna share any. Is my mom there? And she was like, honey, she's not here yet. She's supposed to be here, but she's not here yet. And I was like, she's not coming. And I just burst into tears. And she's like, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. And I was like, it is not gonna be okay because the rapture happened. And I. I didn't go. And you didn't either. I cannot even believe this. Hung up. Hung up the phone like it's my favorite part. You didn't. You didn't either. News flash. So I went to. I remember going to the living room. And Just pause for a second. Can you imagine your mom's shift? Like, she. She gets to work for her next shift, and they look at her like, hey, is Carrie all right? No. I didn't even think. Mom doesn't know anything. I'm embarrassed, and my cheeks are getting hot. Thanks, Jill. Sorry. Anyway, so I was. I would. I go to the middle of the living room and scream bloody murder. Like, I'm just, like, on my knees. Yes. Scream fear. Thinking I know so many. You know, your. Your mind goes 90 to nothing. Yeah. And how am I gonna get money? How am I gonna get food? What am I going to do? Who do I connect with? All that. And it probably took less than a minute. And Mickey and Dad walk in the front door, see me. I'm sure they heard the scream because it was. Oh, they probably came because they heard the scream. And. Well, I just remember them going, dad's in. What's wrong? And Mickey. All right, pause, pause. Tell. Delete. The Mickey. We don't want to. We don't want to use your parents. I don't. I don't. Okay. Anyway, my brother. My brother burst into laughter. Of course, you thought the rapture was gonna happen, and you didn't make it. You know? And I was like, shut up. But at that moment, I mean, after dad calm me down and I found out when I looked at my mom's car, I couldn't see the driver's seat. I could only see the back of her car, in the back of my dad's car. She was in her vehicle, about to leave to go to work. I found that out later. And dad and Mickey. Okay, edit that out. Dad and my brother were across the street feeding a neighbor's dog. And just, you know, the shame and embarrassment. And I did, you know, at that, like, researching in my mind, what did I do wrong? What did I do? Because every night I asked forgiveness and asked Jesus into my heart. Every night. Every night. Every night before that. Because you might have screwed up. Yes, I might have messed up. And I couldn't remember, so. And isn't that insane? Because you're like, I might have messed up and not known it. Like, I don't remember messing Up. But I better get it covered just in case. Probably the worst thing I did was fight with my brother. And like. Right. Because little Carrie was a good kid. Sharp. I'm. I'm sure. I also, well, lied at times. I mean, like, of course I did. But anyway, we all know you're. I think after that is when I. I don't think I put it into these words in my head. But there's got to be a better way to know that I'm going to heaven. And I don't remember having the conversation with anybody. I just remember just praying, like, God, I can't live like this. Yeah. And I probably didn't say it like that, but as an adult, I know I was like, I've got to get a hold of myself. This can't keep happening. Yeah. And I think it was just a gentle training between me and God and paying more attention in church and just realizing, if he's a parent and a good parent and he is a good, good dad, a good father, why would he just be done with me if I messed up once. Once or even a bunch. So much so that you messed up. You don't. You couldn't identify it at the end, but I probably did. Yeah. So when I started it, especially after I became a parent, I just remember holding my son the first time and I'm like, there's nothing that he can do where I would stop loving him. Yeah. And rooting for him. Nothing. You know, and we all know kids. Kids are going to disappoint you. Like, I've disappointed my parents, but there's nothing that I can. If you are a good parent, there's nothing they can do that you're like, okay, I'm done. I mean, and I mean, like, you. Know, where you turn off the love of. Turn off the love. That's what I mean. Like, and stop rooting for them. And like. And I'm saying. And hoping for the relationship. We may get, like, emails now. But, like, just. We don't have an email address out. I'm just like, I know things happen between parents and children, but in my life, I. I just can't stop hoping for the best for my kids and loving them. You know? Yeah. And anyway, but that. That was when I was like, this is ever. I didn't put it in those words when I was 12 or 13 years old. But this is about a relationship. Not. I don't have to keep thinking he's ready just to come back as soon as I said he's coming back. And He's. He doesn't want me there. Yeah. He's trying to not take me there, but that's not really how he is. Well, I think that it also. I do think that it's exacerbated, like, that feeling of, I'm gonna miss it. God's out to get me is. Is exacerbated by the doctrine that no one's good enough for God. Which is accurate. It is an accurate doctrine. We none of us are good enough to earn salvation, but in a child mind or. Or an immature Christian mind that feels like we. Like, they're looking at ways to disqualify. Like God is looking for a way to disqualify someone. I think it's. When it's the opposite. Exactly. It's. It's him saying, you can't possibly be qualified. So come on. Yeah. Like, come as you are. The only part. Yes. Come as you are. There's room for everybody. There's just this. This little bit that is required, and that's just a relationship. That's just you being open to me. And then change comes. Yeah. After that. And so I'll work that out. So. Worth it. Like, to me, it's like there's no. There's no way. Like Peter said, where. Where are we gonna go? There's no other. There's no other place except to follow you. So anyway. Well, I know we're about almost out of time, but it's been great, Jill. It has been. And I'm looking forward to our next one and next one and next one, and we hope that y' all are, too. And. Yeah. So just, you know, this is the first. First episode that we have. So in an effort to kind of give you a little bit of an understanding of where we're gonna go with this is. Our hope is to have various guests on that kind of give a chapter of their own story, and maybe we'll do, like, themes and kind of have that happen. And then we'll also kind of dig into some biblical things. Yes. But we've got some really exciting. Hopeful guests planned. Yes. Yes. We can get them on board. It'd be great. So stay tuned. Do you have a question? Are we gonna end with it? Yeah. So we did have a question. What was it? Dang it. I don't remember. Okay, edit this. Don't say dang it. Shoot. Don't say shoot. It was when you said in my office. I don't remember. Well, I'm just gonna do it then. Wait. If you could have any super power Superhuman power. What would you have and why? I want me to go first because I already know. You want me to say this is. This is a very practical and ridiculous thing for me, all right? To always have enough, like, whatever that is. If it's money in the bank account, like, for me to. If I want that I have enough. If I need, like, fishes and loaves, like, if I need lasagna for 6,000 people, I've got enough. I've got it. It's right here. To just always have enough. Just be like it's there. Yeah. Like. Like, just to, like, a gesture, and there it is. You know, mine's probably typical. I would want to be invisible whenever I wanted. The only other thing that I would think is teleportation. Oh, man. I think teleportation would be like. I just. If I could be like Jeannie on I Dream of Genie, where she does, like, the little. You know, I was allowed to watch Adrian Genie, but I was not allowed. To watch Bewitched because genies are different. I don't know. I'll have to ask my mom why, but okay. She just liked Barbara. Maybe. Maybe. All right, well, we're signing off now, and thanks for listening. More to come, more to come. Cut. End it. Tap. I think we're done. That's scary. Stop. What'd you ha for today? You said the last thing came by. Oh, the daycare.