Rowing Into the Impossible: Erden Eruc’s 5-Year Journey Around the World

What makes someone believe they can row across oceans, cycle across continents, and spend more than five years completing the first solo human-powered circumnavigation of the planet?

In this episode of Why’d You Think You Could Do That?, Sam Penny sits down with Erden Eruc—adventurer, mountaineer, ocean rower, and Guinness World Record holder. Erden’s story is one of resilience, tragedy, and extraordinary determination.

From the death of his climbing partner that pushed him to honour a promise, to 312 days alone at sea battling rogue waves and isolation, Erden’s life is proof that ordinary people can achieve the impossible when they refuse to quit.

You’ll discover:

• 🌍 The pivotal moment that sparked Erden’s five-year human-powered circumnavigation.
• 🚣 What it feels like to row across three oceans—alone.
• 💡 How he managed fear, boredom, and doubt on the open water.
• 🏔 Why discipline and routine are the keys to survival and success.
• ⛵ His preparation for the upcoming 2026 Golden Globe Race.

This is not a story about superhuman strength—it’s about choosing to keep going, stroke after stroke, when everything says stop.

🔗 Connect with Erden: erdeneeruc.com

👉 For coaching with Sam Penny: sampenny.com/action

Creators and Guests

Host

Sam Penny

Sam Penny is an adventurer, entrepreneur, and keynote speaker who lives by the mantra “Say YES! to the Impossible.” From swimming the English Channel in winter to building and selling multi-million-dollar companies, Sam thrives on pushing boundaries in both business and life. As host of Why’d You Think You Could Do That?, he sits down with ordinary people who have done extraordinary things, uncovering the mindset, resilience, and bold decisions that made it possible — and showing listeners why their own impossible is closer than they think.

Guest

Erden Eruç

Erden Eruc is a Guinness World Record–holding adventurer and the first person in history to complete a solo human-powered circumnavigation of the planet. Over five years, he rowed across three oceans, cycled across continents, and climbed some of the world’s tallest peaks—spending more time alone at sea than anyone else on Earth. With 15 world records to his name, Erden continues to push boundaries, now preparing for the 2026 Golden Globe Race.

What is Why'd You Think You Could Do That??

They’ve swum oceans, scaled mountains, launched empires, and shattered expectations. But before they did any of it, someone, maybe even themselves, thought: “You can’t do that.”

Hosted by Sam Penny, Why’d You Think You Could Do That? dives into the minds of people who said “screw it” and went for it anyway. From adventurers and elite athletes to wildcard entrepreneurs and creative renegades, each episode unpacks the one question they all have in common:

“Why'd you think you could do that?”

If you’re wired for more, haunted by big ideas, or just sick of playing it safe, this is your show.

Sam Penny (00:00)
You're in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. The horizon is empty in every direction. Your only companion is a seven metre rowboat. You've been out here for months alone and the nearest human being is thousands of kilometres away. then one night, a rogue wave slams into you and your world flips upside down. That was just.

one moment in the five year human powered circumnavigation of today's guest Erden Eruc Welcome back to Why Do Think You Could Do That? The show where we explore the lives of ordinary people who've done batshit crazy things and said yes to the impossible. My guest today is someone whose journey is almost too big to wrap your head around. He's the first person in history to complete a solo human powered circumnavigation of the planet.

He's rowed across three oceans, climbed mountains on multiple continents and spent more time alone at sea than anyone on earth. But here's the thing, he started out like so many of us, a regular career, a set of dreams that could have stayed on the shelf. Today we'll find out how those dreams turned into one of the

feats of our time and how he's now gearing up for the 2026 Golden Globe race. Erden

Welcome to the show.

Erden Eruc (01:20)
Thank you, Sam. Thank you for the opportunity.

Sam Penny (01:22)
I'm really looking forward to this because the more I dive into your story, the more I'm blown away. You've done so many epic things, but I don't want to start with the epic. I want to understand who is Erden as a young boy. Now, what was life growing up like in Turkey?

Erden Eruc (01:43)
I was born in Cyprus, raised in Turkey. My father was in the army and I was an army brat. We moved all over the place. And then he was part of the mountaineering school in Erders, when I was five, six, seven, eight years old. So four, four years. And I learned how to ski, how to swim, I watched people rappelling.

So I was part of that mix during all their training. the physical life came naturally to me. And my father eventually took me up a volcano in South Central Turkey called Afgs, which is about 3,900 meters tall. And that was my first taste of mountaineering. And then after that, I thought of myself as a mountaineer.

And it just kept building like that one step after another.

Sam Penny (02:34)
So as a kid, did you have a dream of what you would become?

Erden Eruc (02:37)
Well, early on, I wanted to be a pilot. Then I wanted to be an officer like my father. And then when I was in boarding school, just coming into middle school, our instructors brought a black and white television and made us watch the astronauts walking on the moon live. That was Apollo 17.

So I went to bed that night thinking I can be an astronaut. And then I woke up in the morning and I said, well, all astronauts are Americans. I'm not. So I can't be. And that was over. So that's a lesson right there. can dial right back to that and say, hey, had you decided, you might have been.

Sam Penny (03:13)
you

It's interesting, you've got the same dreams as many young boy across the planet. You then you trained as an engineer. What was normal day life for you any of this real adventure stuff happened?

Erden Eruc (03:32)
Well, I I hold a mechanical engineering degree and then I received a master's degree in that. I pursued PhD in engineering mechanics. I completed the general exams and that got another master's degree. Then the PhD dissertation work was going just too long and you need three legs to that, to stand that stool. I need an advisor, topic and funding. So.

At all times, one of that was missing, so I couldn't finish it. I left and then got into ⁓ IT world and rowed that wave for a while, received an MBA in 1999. And throughout all that time, I was very physical. I ran marathons, I started judo, I was a wrestler in the university,

I climbed big walls in Yosemite, El Capitan and Half Dome. And I had Denali on my sights. I tried it once, pulled back,

engineer stuck in an office daydreaming gazing out the window all the time and waiting for the weekend to come so I could go do things.

Sam Penny (04:43)
Back then, when you're an engineer and you're working in IT, did you ever once think that one day you would row across oceans?

Erden Eruc (04:54)
No, however, when I was in Silver Spring, Maryland, just on the outskirts of Washington, DC, working in an IT software development lab, there was a world map hanging on the wall that had the Americas on the right, Pacific in the middle, and the old world on the left. And I stood in front of that thing one day and traced my finger across.

from DC to Turkey with Bering Straits and I asked myself what if, then that became a bit of an obsession and when I shared that with others, I was getting questions like have you done anything like that before? So cynicism was all around me. I learned quickly that not everybody needed to know. Eventually when I was...

rock climbing with a friend and he fell and he died. I decided that I wanted to do the circumnavigation properly and so ocean rowing got into the mix and that's how I decided I needed to spend time on the oceans and that became a major part of the whole experience eventually.

Sam Penny (06:06)
every great story, there's always a moment where something shifts and there's a spark that changes the direction of your life. And as you just alluded to was the death of your friend, Goran Kropp Take me back to that moment when Goran passed.

Erden Eruc (06:24)
We were rock climbing in eastern Washington on Basalt Columns, an area called Frenchman Coulee. we were top roping after leading every pitch. One would climb and then the other would go clean it, come back. So we had these lines right next to each other. And on one of those, the last one,

He was above me and I heard the clatter and I looked up, saw him falling. I crouched down. I took out as much line as I could, but the whole protection system failed. It was a catastrophic failure of his protection. And he hit the shelf I was on and then fell down onto the path below. There was nothing to be done when I went back next to him.

And evacuation was done by helicopter and we were lifted up and taken to a nearby hospital. I was taken to the emergency room. The line had wrapped around my arm. had a strangulation injury of my left arm and ⁓ he was taken to the morgue.

it was a traumatic event and that became a turning point for me because when I was Thinking of such

big journeys that eventually evolved into the circumnavigation that I accomplished. I was reading books about similar journeys and people who have done similar things. One of the books I read was Ultimate High about Goran's story of bicycling from Sweden to Nepal and towing his climbing gear behind him to climb solo. He was mentioned in the famous book, Into Thin Air.

as helping bring people down who were in trouble above. He eventually accomplished that climb and then he bicycled back his trip from Sweden to Nepal was entirely under his own human power.

And it was an inspiration for me and he came to Seattle for a presentation in the summer of 2001 and there I got to meet him. I was part of the local American Alpine Club chapter. We were one of the organizers of that event and I got to talk to him ahead of the presentation and he asked me,

When I told him about my plans to go around the world by human power, he asked me when I was going to start and if I had sponsors. So when we meet these kinds of folks, they tend to challenge us and they hold up a mirror and say, Hey, are you the I had to swallow hard and say, well, no, to both. And I didn't have a starting date. did not have sponsors and I was still researching and talking about it and not moving.

And when we next met, that was in Ouray Colorado during then their ice climbing festival, the next winter, He was with his sponsor, Tent, talking to folks and I met him there and he said,

You haven't just started yet. And I told him, well, September 11 happened. Is the world a safe place at all? I had excuses to not start. And he told me that he was moving nearby to Issaquah near Seattle, where I lived. And we promised that we would go climbing together. And then he was gone again and disappeared. And he turns out he climbed Everest one more time And out of the blue,

In September of 2002, I got this phone call saying, I'm back. Let's go climb. And on that first opportunity that we got to climb together, the accident happened. And yeah, we were airlifted. And then we had to go fetch his car and deal with the aftermath. It was quite the...

tragedy and for someone who's accomplished the big feats on K2 and Everest to lose his life on a short climb, short pitch, half a rope length climb like that was really tragic and that was the turning point for me. I went to his funeral in Stockholm

And on the way back from the funeral, I drew the world map on a piece of paper, marked the highest summits on each continent and except Antarctica, which I thought would not be possible to get to by human power. And decided I was going to aim to reach each one of these summits by human power in his memory.

Sam Penny (10:47)
obviously such a tragic story, but also such a pivotal moment for

I wanted to backtrack a little bit because to come up with the idea to do a solo circumnavigation by human power, you don't just wake up one day and just go, that's what I want to do. There's a lot of understanding yourself, understanding your skillset, the whole Venn diagram of your experiences have to come together. How did you formulate the idea that this is what I want to do?

Erden Eruc (11:20)
Well, remember in 1997 I traced my finger on that map on the wall. And I did not start the circumnavigation until 2007. So it took 10 years for this thing to simmer and mature in my mind and to get started to commit. As I suggested, I had a lot of excuses. I met Goran Goran fell 2002. So five years later is when I actually started moving. I was fit.

I had plenty of experience in the outdoors, so...

experiences that I could transfer from all disciplines to what I wanted to do were there and I had to past the gaps. I had to gain experience on the oceans. I had no experience on open oceans and I had to get a suitable vessel. So I had seen Jason Lewis do his thing. I had contacted him back in 2004 for the first time and

he was using a propeller-driven boat, so should I use that same method? Then I discovered Ocean Rowing Society in London and started looking at the used boats that they had. They were regularly organizing races across the Atlantic from the Canary Islands to Barbados at the time. So I obtained one of those.

vessels and that same vessel that had crossed the Atlantic twice now became my vessel to spend another 1,084 days by the time I gave it up to a museum. That's three and a half, five percent of my life on that boat.

Sam Penny (12:49)
So hang

on. Had you done any rowing before you came up with this idea?

Erden Eruc (12:58)
Well, since I knew that I was going to row, I started doing flat water rowing and rowing shells in a rowing club, Seattle, especially when I got to move to Seattle eventually from Washington, DC. And I started getting introduced more to the concept of rowing and the technique and how to row without injuring myself and my back.

Sam Penny (13:05)
Mm.

Erden Eruc (13:25)
So and then getting ideas on how to train specifically for rowing. I knew training principles from all my athletic life prior, but of course this required different kind of dedication and since I was going to do a circumnavigation by human power, I could use different modes of travel. So I had to kayak. I needed to learn how to do Eskimo rolls. Practice those. I had to

make sure that I knew how to live on an ocean rowing vessel for so long that required time alone on the oceans. I needed to know how to navigate and seek advice, how to communicate from the rowing boat, how to deal with emergencies. All of those things had to be skills to be gathered. Then

I started reading books about these and also wanted to gain that information from the journals of others. so I tried to absorb as much information as possible. However, you can spend another 10 years just reading and planning and dreaming and talking about it. So at some point one has to take action, right? And for me, the ocean rowing and

the commitment to the circumnavigation happened when I obtained a boat. So gaining experience itself is a challenge.

So I decided that in order to gain the necessary experience before I commit to the certain navigation, should take the boat across the Atlantic.

The boat was in Portugal, then with another rower we reached Canary Islands and I continued from Canary Islands, Las Palmas, to Guadalupe on my own. It took me 96 days to get across. So that was a nice transition and an expedition to gain experience as an ocean rower.

Sam Penny (15:22)
Was

those 96 days the first big long patch that you had to yourself?

Erden Eruc (15:28)
Yes, it was. And it was a good test of my skills, my mental fortitude, my patience. And all of these had to be, it was a good shakedown, if you want to call it that. And I knew what I lacked. I knew how I could improve the boat. I knew what else I had to have on the boat that I didn't have. All these things then helped me prepare the boat better for.

the longer row that I took as part of the circumnavigation, which was the Pacific.

Sam Penny (16:00)
So, Erden, it's one thing to dream about something like this, but it's another thing to actually step off the shore. What was the day like when you first officially began your first big expedition?

Erden Eruc (16:11)
When I wanted to leave from San Francisco first Departure from Tiburon on out the Golden Gate Bridge was a failure What happened is? The onshore winds were just too strong and I couldn't get the boat to move Even though I had the tide

The tide turned eventually and I was locked in and we had to tow the boat back and I thought, wait a minute, I need to rethink this. I just couldn't get out of the Golden Gate. So eventually I decided I needed to move the start away from San Francisco, just Northwest to another port called Bodega Bay, which had a marina so that I didn't have to

deal with the tidal schedules because the winds kicked up, especially in the afternoon, and it calmed down overnight because the land was warmer and the ocean was cold. So there was this pattern constantly. So it made sense that I should leave in the dark hours of the morning when the wind was calmest so that I could put some distance between me and the land before I got sucked back in.

When I realized that and started looking at the weather patterns, a low pressure system formed and just came up the coast, which is a counterclockwise spin of the winds. And that meant that the onshore wind pattern was broken. So I chose to leave from Bodega Bay, no tide restrictions with an offshore wind, took me out and put me 70 miles away straight out.

And then when I got to 70 miles out, the wind reestablished from the Northwest and I dropped like a rock to South and the coastline was receding away from me towards San Diego, Los Angeles and San Diego. So it was a picture perfect departure. So first failure was followed by I got experience. I got this. Boom, I was gone.

Sam Penny (18:05)
So that first, I

want to go back to that first failure. You're out on a journey that eventually takes you more than five years, yet you couldn't even get off land to begin with. How did that affect you mentally?

Erden Eruc (18:21)
there was a lot of pressure. My sponsors were involved. They had come to send me off. Everything was recorded and then here I am. I can't even get off the continent. And it was a disappointment, obviously. And then of course it's created a lot of complications. mean, my wife was working and she had come to send me off. was...

I had already departed and I wasn't paying enough attention. We learned to handle that better over the years. ⁓ so she left a bit disappointed after my departure. And then here I was stuck on land. She was working and I was still in the US. And we weren't together all that time. And I was debating whether or not

to go home or to try again or it was a very fluid and frustrating period until I recommitted. So June 3rd was, if I remember correctly, my first attempt. And then the second actual departure happened on July 10th. Quite a bit.

Sam Penny (19:28)
So you must

have had a lot of doubters, a lot of naysayers after that first failed attempt, people saying, you're an idiot, you don't know what you're doing, you failed once, it's not going to happen. How did you deal with those kinds of things? Cause I'm sure that they came.

Erden Eruc (19:45)
You see, 1997 onward, I had come across plenty of people who questioned my sanity. And when I tried to get information and get ideas, there were plenty who were dismissive and cynical or just not taking it seriously. And of course, I didn't know enough to design a proper route.

And if I suggested, here's what I'd like to do with this work. What do you think? I would get ridiculed. And, ⁓ often I was talking to sailors, a sailboat behaves differently than a rowboat. And when I got weather routing information, I was getting that from people who were sailors and it just didn't quite apply. I didn't, become,

part of that conversation. I couldn't direct that conversation until I gained the experience. So over time I got better and I was really able to study the weather reports going back, clementological data going back decades, and then really distilling all that information and absorbing it and then after digesting it all, trying to design a route that actually could work. And then I could go with a real plan to an expert. Eventually,

During the pandemic, for example, I rowed from Crescent City, California, all the way to Philippines by way of Waikiki and Guam. And that took 239 days total. And that was a perfectly executed crossing in partnership with my friend Jason Crescensen, who's a weather router for yacht races and such. And we were really closely collaborating and

making it happen. I was the engine, but of course I had to find the feasible path across. You can't just draw a straight line and start rowing. It just doesn't work that way.

Sam Penny (21:43)
You've mentioned family and friends. When you first told them that you were going to do this circumnavigation, what was their first reaction?

Erden Eruc (21:52)
When I told this to my father, he asked me, what about your career? So as an engineer with degrees and such, I had been working, but what happened in year 2000 was, of course, first

The dot com dot bomb happened. Dot com industry crashed in Seattle. And so I was laid off.

A lot of people were looking for work in Seattle and it was a frustrating period and I had multiple interviews happening. So since it wasn't going to happen in Seattle, I was ready to go back to becoming a road warrior, a consultant that flies to places, does the job, comes back on weekends, that kind of thing. I was willing to do that. So I was talking to even international assignments.

then September 11 hit hiring freezes came, everything was suspended. So it just wasn't working. And I said, I can't continue like this. So I'm going to get physical now. I mean, in sense that I am going to be outdoors. I'm going to be a mountain guide.

and I'm going to pursue firefighting duties with the Seattle Fire Department. So I did the written exam for Seattle Fire Department. I was waiting for the physical exams. I had completed the basic training as a mountain guide and I took Wilderness First Responder course and getting to complete that process.

Then when all that happened, as that was happening, Goran's accident happened and I changed course. just pulled the plug on everything and took off. I wasn't going to put off anything anymore.

Sam Penny (23:30)
So what did your wife say when you wanted to do your circumnavigation?

Erden Eruc (23:35)
I met my wife on a consulting duty when I traveled to Chicago for a requirements gathering meeting and she was on the customer side. And we met in the coffee room and she asked me, why haven't I met you before? I said, well, I work in Seattle. I'm visiting. That's probably why. And she said, what are you doing in Seattle? I wasn't going to talk about work. I was just so tired of.

work related stuff. I got smart and I said, would you like to know what I'd rather do? And that was my comeback. And she says, what's that? And I said, I'd like to go around the world by human power. So that was my answer. That's how we got to introduce ourselves.

Sam Penny (24:12)
So this

was already part of the package that you sold to her.

Erden Eruc (24:15)
Yeah,

right, right there. That was my entry and she said, okay. So she had to know more. had lunch and the rest of the history. And then eventually she moved to Seattle. Of course she had, you know, it worked. I get lucky sometimes like that. After so many tries, she was the right one at the right time when I had the right phrase in place. So.

Sam Penny (24:26)
Sounds like the greatest pick up line by the way.

Ha

you

That's fantastic. now this expedition took over five years. How did your wife deal with that separation for so long? Obviously you saw her along the journey, but there's massive periods. For example, there's one stretch where you, you were rowing for 312 days by yourself solo. how do you deal with it? But also your wife deal with that separation from, for you.

Erden Eruc (24:45)
and they can't be more grateful.

Yeah.

Sam Penny (25:11)
being separated from the rest of the planet and your wife being separated from you.

Erden Eruc (25:16)
I think it's a mindset as well, going back to that initial introduction and how we transitioned into this lifestyle. After Goran's accident, I sat across the table with Nancy after she came back from her trip and I said, I must do this now. She said, you will, you must. And we didn't look back. We made choices, we rearranged our lives. We had a Lakeview condo, two income pair, a couple.

We had a nice place in Seattle overlooking downtown. sold that, moved a bit farther away. We arranged our finances so I could cash out my retirement funds and commit. All of those things were joint decisions. So we were on that path together. We started walking side by side. And when we prepared in the beginning, I was more focused on everything and I could get sucked in so deep that

She felt sidelined, ignored. And so she would voice those. And of course, I got better at managing that transition into the expedition mode. And while on expedition, as long as she heard from me, whether it was by short messages from my satellite phone or our weekly Sunday calls as we had it to manage the expenditures, we limited our

calls that way. As long as she heard from me, she was fine. Even when there was trouble, she knew that I had the frame of mind, I had the right mindset to be safe, that she could trust me out there and I'd make the right decision. And physically, she trusted me mentally as well. She knew that I could handle it.

we met late in life. So when we met, I was 40, she was, she's a couple of years older than me. So we were already standing on our own two feet. So we could function on our own.

but we were better together, stronger together, obviously. So separation didn't hinder us. It actually allowed us to miss each other and come back together and have stories to share and have a joint accomplishment, if you will, because it became our journey, not me being gone doing my thing. And it just became this...

Sam Penny (27:31)
well.

Erden Eruc (27:35)
constantly ⁓ evolving relationship and I think it made us stronger in the end. There was no other way to survive this anyway.

Sam Penny (27:43)
Wow, that's beautiful. Now, I want to get into some of the more specifics and the hardships of the adventure because once you're out there, the safety net's gone. It's just you, the boat, the ocean. Can you describe, you might be 100 days, 150 days into an ocean row. What was your typical day at sea?

Erden Eruc (28:06)
A typical day at sea would be I would, you know, I need to get eight hours of sleep in total and I would be waking up with daybreak. So as the darkness breaks and there is a hint of daylight and before the sun rises, I'm awake. I then would get out, do my, you know, morning business, use the bucket and all that kind of stuff.

And then after a short period of adjustment, I would get outside and start rowing. having my breakfast would be just as the sun is rising, as I'm getting going. I'm heading west, so sun will always be behind the boats in the mornings. And then the day would start. It would go on. I would nibble. would.

If I got bored, would message and see like high school kids. We will be texting each other over the satellite phone. And typically I would hang up the oars with sunset. I wanted to always watch the horizon on the west, on western horizon to see the green flash. That's a phenomenon that happens as the sun is just dropping behind the horizon, below the horizon.

a momentary flash of green right on the horizon. Of course, you cannot have a wave in between or a cloud in between to be able to observe that. So it took a lot of observations to see any. So every sunset, I would watch and try to see it. And so that was an excuse to tie up my oars and transition into, I've got to prepare my dinner, lay down.

write down my messages, start journaling, blogging, whatever I had to do before it was time to sleep because it was a long day. And then of course the night would be in the cabin.

Sam Penny (29:56)
Erden, you paint a picture of tranquility, calmness, bliss, things that people all across the planet would want to chase. But you and I know, both know that that's not the case. Tell me about, tell me about the night the rogue wave hit. What happened in those moments?

Erden Eruc (30:12)
It is not.

Well, there was one night when I was rowing across the when I received a wave. It was boxing seas outside. Those happen when swells from one direction mix typically with a perpendicular wave train that the winds brought.

When that happens, then you get boxing seas. So the peaks add valleys subtract and then you get this up down motion rather than the regular pattern of a wave following the boat. And those can be dangerous. That's when rogue waves can happen. So with that up down motion, one of those came and popped the boat from one side and knocked it on its side. And as I was laying,

I was thrown as the boat rolled, I was thrown off my mattress to the side and top of the cabin and that hit my back, my rib against the...

the structure of the cabin on the side and I was sore a bit. But then the boat settled again, of course, it happens. You take stock. Am I okay? Is the boat okay? Is everything together? And then go back to sleep. Of course, when I went back to sleep, I tied myself down so I wouldn't be tossed again.

So going forward from then on, if the conditions justified it, I would always tie myself down.

if something broke out there, I could replace it if I had a spare. I could repair it if I had the kit to repair it. Or I could do without. Those were the options. And for the human body, it's not as easy. I need to be careful how I care for myself, avoid injury.

infections, exposure, sunburn, chafing, all of those things had to be managed out there to keep myself functioning

Sam Penny (32:14)
Now, you've had equipment failures, you've had rogue waves flipping you upside down. How do you manage fear during these moments?

Erden Eruc (32:22)
Fear is temporary. It's an emotion.

It is present. It keeps one alive, but one cannot give in to fear. So the fear manifests itself in these long duration events as worry and trepidation and uncertainty. All of those things combined to become this ever present driver of your actions. So it keeps one safe.

You keep take precautions and you keep asking, evaluating, reconsidering, constantly evaluating risk and developing patterns and habits. And those patterns and habits keep one alive. By managing the situation and the environment properly and taking the right precautions, one stays one step ahead of any problems.

So the biggest thing is to face those things that create the fear, assess whether or not they're going to come to threaten me. Is the danger present? Yes. Is it going to hurt me or mess up my plans? How likely is that? So that's really a risk assessment.

If it's a whale knocking me over and crashing my boat, and how likely is it, it's unlikely. Therefore, I did not worry about it. So if you think about it as that, I cannot obsess about this and not continue. What about sharks, everybody asks me, you know? Well, they're in the water. I am in the boat. As long as I'm not swimming in the water, unlikely that one would

bother me. In fact, they would come and scrub on the hull of the boat. Now if I hear sandpaper sound, I know, yeah, it's a shark pacing with my boat because all fish like to hang out under the shadow of a larger fish because they can then see sideways and not get glare. And I would have a whole ecosystem under the boat that way, a knocking door knock sound.

It would be a sea turtle feeding on the barnacles under the boat kind of thing or chirping sound are the dolphins. So I would know what was going on around me. So the risk is again, is there a danger? How likely is it? And then how do I mitigate that? Of course, mitigating dangers has to do with preparation. So risk is relative. So what would be a fearful and a very

risky proposition for someone that could instill fear in them. So to such extent that they wouldn't undertake that.

event or action or motion, it may be very possible for me for an expert rock climber, they just move up the rocks with great skill and grace and it's a joy to watch them perform for someone off the street who hasn't climbed at all. They wouldn't be able to get off the ground after two meters height below them.

would freeze and they wouldn't be able to move and the fear would just grab them and they wouldn't be able to let go. So it is all relative and I think preparation and having the right tools and right skills are important. With that, the threat is mitigated, the danger is always there. Awareness increases. So what we don't want is to

be in a situation where the danger is there, but we are not aware of it. And then we're surprised. So with advanced thought and preparation, one essentially develops a checklist in mind. So when faced with danger, something goes wrong and immediately I am in problem solving mode. I can't be panicking and freezing and not acting because time may be very limited. Things may have to be fixed very quickly. I can handle that.

easier on my own because yelling orders in all directions to others to get them going is a very frustrating deal. That's why there are dry runs and exercises done. Military folks know this. So you can't be in the trenches and freezing when a team has to execute in unison in a coordinated fashion to be effective. So in a way, it's war against nature, if you want to put it that way.

like to think of it as I am in sync. I take things as they come. It's predictable. I knew this could happen. I was ready for it. So let's go down the checklist and then fix things. The unpredictable ones could be other vessels charging down on me

Sam Penny (36:59)
It's interesting,

one of my past guests, a lady called Lisa Blair, who's a solo sailor, holds the world record for the fastest solo circumnavigation of Antarctica. In 2017, her boat was dismasted and in the middle of the night, eight metre waves, 40 knot winds. The worst situation you'd want to be in because you're a thousand nautical miles from the closest piece of land.

She was having to make life or death decisions there on the spot. If I go and do that, there's a 50 % chance that I'm going to die. But if I stay here, there's a good chance I'm going to die in the next 24 hours. But what it came down to is exactly what you're talking about that preparation. I like to say prior preparation prevents piss poor performance. She had gone over with her with experts and other yachties and her

Erden Eruc (37:45)
yeah.

Sam Penny (37:50)
on land team of all the different types of dismasting scenarios. And we can't control the environment that we're in. And there's no point having fear of that external stuff that we don't have control over. We have to appreciate that those dangers are there. And if something catastrophic does happen, having the bravery and having the self fortitude to know that

our training and our preparation kicks in and we know how to handle that.

Erden Eruc (38:22)
Correct. So typically this comes up as an expression where we control the controllables. So things that are not in our control can happen, may happen. If they happen, then what can I control in that chaos to rein in the damage, to survive, to keep my

kit together, to keep myself together, and to get through. I am preparing right now, for example, for the Golden Globe Race, which are going to happen in dated vessels. Mine was built in 1976, a full keel vessel, up for the task. All vessels have to be built before 1988.

⁓ One of the requirements that we have for this race is to have two identical spinnaker poles and a kit ready to set up an A-frame in case we get this dismasted it to set up a jury rig. So we would use our storm sail and whatever sails we have left on board and then we can then hobble along toward a port to get away from danger and

to make some advance so we don't have to involve others immediately to come to our rescue. So that kind of advanced preparation and test and demonstrating the skills and documenting that is one of the requirements. And this kind of thing has to happen if we are going to take on these massive expeditions where others may have to come to our rescue. And self-reliance and

is paramount. It's what a responsible adventurer must do and to minimize cost in time and money to others. So it is part of an honor system where I do my part to the extent that I can manage and then do not create these

emergencies for others. They do not need to get involved until it's absolutely necessary.

Sam Penny (40:25)
Now, Erden and what was the longest period you've gone without seeing another human being?

Erden Eruc (40:31)
That's hard to tell because the longest time that I was at sea with my rowboat non-stop was 312 days, but I did see other vessels. They did come by and check me out. My boat was bright yellow, very visible. An odd thing, they're not used to seeing those. They would always think it was a little, you know, one of those life vessels, rescue vessels from a sunken ship.

And people would come by and call me up, lean over the edge and yell at me. And I would come up with the talking, They would start leaning over the edge and start yelling. And then I would come up with my radio in hand and start talking. And they would say, where is your ship? How many are you? That a difficult question. And I say, this is my ship. I'm one. That was my answer.

Sam Penny (41:02)
He's just some random guy in the middle of the ocean rowing.

hahahaha

Erden Eruc (41:20)
So that happened more than once on this cause.

Sam Penny (41:22)
So there must have

been a lot of moments of just absolute pure boredom. These little moments must have really broken you out of that. How do you push through the boredom?

Erden Eruc (41:31)
Well, boredom is definitely one of the biggest challenges out there because it's always essentially the same view with variations to the theme. As creatures come and go, that would become an interesting distraction. Immediately one can start entertaining oneself by paying specific attention to that. And then as boredom sets,

The mind has a way of running wild. A lot of thoughts keep spinning in there. They become these obsessive, repetitive thoughts and planning the future, dealing with the past. And I should have punched them, whatever kind of stuff comes and goes. You just replay these past events and they can become very tiring. So one has to change the subject.

is what I thought I should do. And that's what I was doing. The monkey mind is going to take over, people have meditation sessions. I don't call it meditation necessarily, but it is really that it's one of reeling it back in and focusing on my breathing, for example. So

It's not quiet. can't hear my heartbeat necessarily. Listening to my breathing while I'm rowing and timing it with the waves is difficult. So what would I do? I could listen to the wind. I could pick up a wave five back and follow that arriving at my boat. I could hear the birds in the distance. I could try to pick out that one individual out of them and see if I could

listen to that particularly, or that one cloud out there, that one, what does it look like? Is it an elephant? Is it that person? You know, that kind of thing. Just find a task, failing all that, start doing the multiplication table, start one times one equals one, one times two equals two. Just give a task to that mind that is running uncontrolled and busy it with that one thing.

Do not plan the future. Do not deal with the past. Be here. Use this as your task. See how far you get. I never got past four times one. So by the time you get there, it's sort of, okay, at least temporarily, that whatever thought I had is suppressed. So boredom has its ways. And then one way that I dealt with boredom was having a pattern, having a schedule.

Sam Penny (43:48)
Ha ha ha!

Erden Eruc (44:06)
So once I left from shore, for example, they say it takes 21 days to gain new habits. That is true at sea as well. So it took a while, at least two weeks for me to break from the pattern on shore. And missing the pattern, missing the routine, the ability to pick up your phone and talk, and the distractions, the hustle and bustle, the TV blaring and the radio.

playing and then, you know, anytime you want your computer, you have access to everything kind of thing. All those failing that just go out for a jog or walk or go to a movie. None of that exists anymore. you're all of a sudden, boom, you pull the plug and off you go into a new existence. And that takes time to adjust. And then after three weeks, the physically as well, I am adjusting so I can

work out all I want on shore before departure on an ocean crossing, but I will never be ready to row as long as I need to because I'm never rowing for eight hours on shore. I am maybe working out an hour and then I call it done. So I'm fit but not totally adjusted. So it takes time for the body to adjust as well.

With the three to six weeks out, I am totally adjusted physically and mentally as well. I have now gained the habits. Waking up in the morning is not a chore, cleaning up, eating.

existing, surviving, moving the boat, just doing the daily, you wake up in the morning, you have to clean the deck of all the flying fish. For example, that's part of the routine and all these things happen very naturally. And that routine then becomes the new existence. So there is no boredom in that. One just...

does and exists and moves and there are no distractions and you're in the moment and you are moving along with the events and in doing so one demonstrates mastery and being in that setting then is satisfying and one is happy and it's a whole different mindset so I would like to say yeah I get bored but I get over it very quickly

is really what I'm getting at and that pattern helps.

Sam Penny (46:28)
It's interesting, Erden I've often said that routine sets us free. When we have a set routine, we go through the motions, it takes us into, like you say, that Zen state. Regardless of what it is, but routine means we...

Erden Eruc (46:43)
Being

in the flow maybe, you may say.

Sam Penny (46:46)
Been in the

flow, yeah, exactly. Now, adventures like this, they always have their dark moments as well. It's not just boredom, it's not just looking at the sunset. There's obviously times where you're really testing your absolute limit. What was the lowest moment on this circumnavigation?

Erden Eruc (47:04)
well, there were more than one. For example, on the 2007, 2008 season, Pacific crossing, my destination having left from Bodega Bay on California shores was Australia. I specifically wanted to get to Mooloolaba Yeah, you are awesome. Yeah. so that was the goal.

Sam Penny (47:20)
That's where I am. I am.

Erden Eruc (47:28)
But it was a strong La Niña year, which changed the wind patterns. And the equatorial winds were stronger than normal. So once I came southwest with the trade winds into the area where you would meet the countercurrent, it just became impossible to head west. Each time I tried to get across, I would get

blown with the southeast winds back north. There was an episode where for about 13 days I was doing circles. And eventually I worked my way out of that back north and had it continued west. I couldn't cross the equator to gain the South equatorial current, which would have taken me to Australia. I ended up north of Papua New Guinea.

My batteries were not charging anymore and I was always soaked. There was no way to avoid the rain for days, which reached into months. I was in this miserable state, trapped. I couldn't get out of it. So I was continuing west, west, ever west and not getting south of the equator and not getting information about where I could cross, when I could cross. I didn't have enough communication.

capabilities and hadn't the weather support back then as I had hoped. I ended up north of Papua New Guinea and it was a very long trapped state of mind that was frustrating. 312 days was not accidental. I ended up out of control north of Papua New Guinea when we had to ask for help from the Philippine fishermen who were catching tuna.

in the Papua New Guinea waters. So I finally made it toward Papua New Guinea. And just one last bit of weather. A low pressure system came and pushed me back toward equator. And at that point, 312 days, I had one week worth of food left. And it was the typhoon season. I was in the wrong hemisphere in the wrong season. I hadn't crossed the equator to be safe.

And so we said, okay, it's time to pull the plug on this. That was a very long, drawn out frustration, ending up with a disappointment. But with that, I made new friends in the Philippines. The fishing fleet just picked me up.

They took me all the way to General Santos City on Mindanao Island. I became part of their crew. I observed their catching tuna and all the processes. stopped at Papua New Guinea before sailing over to General Santos City. And they were the friendliest folks, the people just very warm and dear. so Philippines has become.

second home to me as a result.

Sam Penny (50:12)
Through all of this, was there a moment where you just felt like abandoning this whole idea of circumnavigating the planet?

Erden Eruc (50:19)
my crossing of Africa was difficult. I was alone on a bicycle and we were very low on funding. we had reached our limits and I wasn't getting the support that I needed and having to spend money all the time was frustrating.

Didn't think that I could make it but then I had to keep my head down and continue and when I called about the traffic life being cheap Traffic being chaotic buses Passing by very Fast and roads not being good or anything of ⁓ anything of the sort I mean I could complain about anything and everything I was in that state of mind When I called my wife

She would ask me, where's the joy? So I couldn't call her either because I needed the vent and I couldn't. so it became a very difficult time, primarily because of all the financial pressures and also not getting the recognition. I was, I had set up a nonprofit in Seattle to educate and inspire children, especially, and we were doing educational projects.

beyond the expedition costs themselves, I needed to be connected. I had to use a satellite phone. I was spending money to do that and I was raising funds to do educational projects. But then I wasn't getting the coverage. A nonprofit exists by public contribution. And if I am not known, if I don't have the coverage, if I had media coverage, I could then...

get into the living rooms or the boardrooms and the classrooms, right? If I got into the living rooms, I could get donations. If I get into boardrooms, I could get sponsorships. If I got into classrooms, I would accomplish my mission. And I wasn't getting that because I didn't have the coverage. And not getting that was frustrating me because I was failing in my mission.

So I had stacked too much on top of my journey with expectations of success, if you will, and I was failing. And that was weighing down on me. that became a big burden, a big albatross. And the down period, the dark period was Africa, all the way across.

Sam Penny (52:31)
So then how do you

pull yourself out of that?

Erden Eruc (52:33)
I just keep carrying on one day after another. Just carry on.

Sam Penny (52:34)
Just keep carrying on. So

more than five years after you set off from San Francisco, the end is in sight. Tell me about that moment when you crossed the finish line. How did that happen? And how did that make you feel?

Erden Eruc (52:50)
I had a month of bicycling to be done across to my starting point Bodega Bay.

And as soon as we reached the finish line, The gate to the marina was closed. I climbed over the fence in the gate and jumped on the other side and went to the same pontoon where I had departed, dipped my toe in the water and I said, the loop is closed.

yeah, dear friend Norman Watts

Sam Penny (53:15)
that finish line, was there anybody there?

Erden Eruc (53:22)
it was a small group, a very meaningful group. Explorers Club members from San Francisco area came,

So it felt good to get that crowd in there to meet me, And yeah.

Sam Penny (53:34)
So this five year journey, was it for

personal satisfaction and accomplishment or is it for attention or something else?

Erden Eruc (53:43)
Well.

This thing, the question that started as what if took a life of its own. And then once I committed to that journey, I kept going. And then once I started, I had to finish it because if I stopped, it would be failure. And then I stacked so much on top of this. was saying with this nonprofit, its mission and ⁓ wanting to accomplish additional things, fundraising and others, it became...

a huge snowballing set of activities that in a way got out of control. I think it got to be too big. And then yeah, Nancy was right to ask, where's the joy? But in the end, when I did finish, I had to go to Guinness World Records and

register all these records document them and make sure that they were recorded because as I was saying I wasn't getting the coverage I wanted So nothing was getting documented and I was resentful in many ways and I said if anything we're going to register these records so that it is there so someone Later cannot claim these it's already been done. So they're going to have to recognize me one way or another

That was my obsession and that's how I got that done and then Being gone so long. I think I had duties as well. I was a son I was a husband and when Nancy for example left the day after I arrived To be with her mother and I spent another day and start questioning. What am I doing here? I need to be with Nancy I then joined her and two days later I was with them and then

within 24 hours of my arriving, mother was taken to a hospital and then she didn't survive the following morning. I was there right at the time that I was supposed to be.

But I had to get back to becoming the son that I was, becoming the husband that I was, and let go of that expeditioner, the gritty, never-quitting adventurer that I was to becoming that softer side of me, the one that's caring, that is responsible, and that has duties and has a role in the society to play.

It's a huge transition from one mindset to the next, but it has to happen. And that is forced on us every now and then, like in mother's situation where she was withering and I had to be there.

Sam Penny (56:15)
It's interesting, Erden I speak to so many adventurers and they go off to their adventures and they expect to come home to acclaim. They come home to the family. So the family goes, are you done now? All right. Now, can you take the rubbish out? Do the dishes. It's your turn to wash the cars.

Erden Eruc (56:28)
Yeah.

Sam Penny (56:33)
we often drag our families into our adventures so much. But then forgetting that everybody has their life to lead. The world continues on regardless of what you're doing. And just as long as you're doing adventures for yourself to fulfill your life, to build your life into something that at the end of it, you're to be proud of what you've achieved.

Surely that is what the aim is.

Erden Eruc (57:00)
Certainly. mean, this circumnavigation was such a big idea, such a big project. I didn't know if I could finish it at the start. But in order to finish it, I had to become the person who could row the three oceans first ever, complete a circumnavigation by human power first solo first ever, set 15 separate Guinness World Records.

I had to become that person. So it was a process of growth. And when I came back, I wanted to document this and talk about it. And I couldn't get it in front of speaking audiences, getting speaking engagements or a book project or whatever. None of that was happening. And that frustration was real. And I had lived with that for five years. And when I came back, it really...

came heavy on my shoulders and I felt like, okay, I can go back and we had proven with Nancy that as long as I spent our money, I could set, keep making records. So I said, I need to go out there and demonstrate mastery. need to get back out there, but I couldn't because we had spent all our resources. So I was stuck and that was a very frustrating and depressing dark period of my life. And yeah, I was suicidal and

It got to be difficult where I lived with this thing for a good year, year and a half, and then eventually worked myself out of it. I started sailing and I started working out more and got physical again and found myself again in the physical sense. And that was an important lesson to not let those pressures get at me.

So I do talk about this every now and then. So mental health is part of my...

causes if you want to call it that. It's not that I am invincible. But if I let it, things can get at me and affect me negatively. And I need to be able to manage that. And that is also a challenge. The prophet that comes back to the village and is not recognized, The end of the journey, that also happens. So it's part of it.

Sam Penny (59:08)
Erden many people,

many people around the planet look at what you've done as superhuman, but when you bring it back, when you strip all that away, you get back into society, you have many of the struggles that everybody else has. So day to day now, how do you deal? And you mentioned that getting out, keeping fit, keeping active, being part of a community.

Erden Eruc (59:28)
Yes.

Sam Penny (59:37)
sharing your message. After everything that you've done, do you understand what your why is, what you stand for, and is that what gets you through day to day?

Erden Eruc (59:50)
That's a loaded question. ⁓ I think what keeps me going is to have larger than life goals. Without them, I get lost and I get distracted and motivating myself is difficult. I am in retirement mode now and I have been pretty much since I started this big long journey.

Sam Penny (59:51)
yeah.

Erden Eruc (1:00:17)
And without these journeys becoming my compass or my rudder, however you want to look at it, and channeling my resources, the time, money, and others, and relationships, what do I accomplish? So then having these big projects organizes my life. Having hobbies organizes my life. Then sailing has become an ongoing

activity for me where I have gained skills and I've gained certifications and I've gained licenses and became a sailing instructor. so these activities start defining who I am and what I do each time I feel that I am lost. I can turn back and say, today I haven't worked out, go work out. I have a dog, walk the dog. I have responsibilities.

talk to my wife, let's do something together, let's have a memorable day today, what can I do to make a difference? These kinds of thoughts, these kinds of patterns start manifesting themselves over time to make me a better person, think. Without a job, that eight to five activity that defines me, I then have to...

manifest myself and demonstrate myself and my presence in different ways. So showing up is a big deal, showing up to work out, showing up as a husband, showing up as a member of the community, mowing the grass on the street with the neighbors, know, just that's my turn now, let's get it done. Those kinds of things, just...

be and be present and be active is really what defines my days nowadays.

Sam Penny (1:01:57)
Erden obviously the show is called Why Do Think You Could Do That? And it's my turn to ask you this very question of everything that you have done. Why do think you could do that?

Erden Eruc (1:02:12)
I was raised in a family that put guardrails but never roadblocks.

and I was free to run as fast as I could down that road.

That set me free. I was safe to play. So I think that became part of my character, that if I could define a path and I understood the limitations and I can then excel in that one direction that was open ahead of me, then I could just go as far as I could, as long as I didn't come up with self-limiting thoughts. So...

I learned quickly early on, that's sports as well, that the effort I put in was proportional to the results that I gained. And in between was my effort. And if I invested the time and effort to prepare myself properly, I was able to stand out in the crowd to become that accomplished athlete or that accomplished student. And I could pursue these things.

Yeah, it takes.

a lot of reminding to myself often in this day and age of social media and a lot of distractions to be focused and to be consistent and to be able to show up every day to build the muscle memory, if you will, to get these things done and to become an expert in what I do to develop mastery. So why did I think that I could do it?

I was the one to ask what if and then I could weigh it against my skills and my preparation and I could then keep researching and if I as I understood it better I say yeah this is actually possible and then if I didn't listen to others to put negative thoughts into my head if I didn't get my thoughts to block me if I kept an open mind I could actually find the path forward

And as I was questioned by others, they questioned my sanity and if they said, have you done anything like that before? I learned to ignore these people. I was asked initially, have you done anything like that before for the circumnavigation? Yeah. Well, it hasn't been done before, right? It's going to be a historic first, it turned out. And when I was getting ready to bicycle from Seattle to Mount McKinley, for example, as part of my Six Summers project in 2003, right after Goran's accident,

People were asking me, have you bicycled that far before? I said no, but I knew that if I bicycle 50 miles a day and started February 1st, I could get there by mid-April and I got to Anchorage April 11th. Even in winter conditions with studded tires and such, towing my climbing gear like Goran had, I knew what was possible. I knew what I was capable of. And because others hadn't done such a thing, they were judging me with their own experience.

I learned quickly that others listen with their own mind. What they see is shaped and colored by their own experience. So they look at what I am proposing and if in their minds they can't do it, then I shouldn't be able to do it either, is a very natural defense mechanism. They don't know any better. I've learned that.

And I've also learned that everybody has an opinion.

Sam Penny (1:05:34)
you are the man in the arena and so many people who are discrediting what you're doing or putting doubt in your mind have never stepped into the arena and that gives you the permission to disregard everything that they say,

Erden Eruc (1:05:50)
over time with more experience and more skill gained and more things accomplished. Yes, I have come to the point where I can make decisions. Not everybody needs to know. And I just carry on with my plans as long as I can afford it. I carry on.

Sam Penny (1:06:06)
Now, Erden, I love to finish off all of our conversations with the Brave Five. It's a rapid fire close. It's five questions. May seem quite random at times. Don't expect one question to lead into the other. Are you ready? All right. Tell me, what's your first adventure you ever remember doing as a kid?

Erden Eruc (1:06:14)
boy. ⁓

boy. Okay, here we go.

boy, that's so far back. I am old now. Well, I was in boarding school and there was this TV antenna that was under construction on the hills way over across the valley. And I had this idea that I could go climb it Of course, I had no sense of distances and I tried twice and failed.

Sam Penny (1:06:32)
Yeah.

Fair enough. Now, what's one comfort from home you secretly missed the most whilst you're out on the ocean?

Erden Eruc (1:06:55)
A bed that doesn't roll and...

freshwater showers.

And of course,

company of family and Nancy.

Sam Penny (1:07:05)
If you could take one song with you for the next expedition, what would it be?

Erden Eruc (1:07:09)
sea shanties I guess.

Sam Penny (1:07:11)
See shanties.

Erden Eruc (1:07:12)
I mean, I can sing along, but I can't sing right off the bat.

Sam Penny (1:07:14)
Yeah.

You're an ocean goer from way back, you?

Now, what's the bravest thing you've done outside of your expeditions?

Erden Eruc (1:07:28)
boy, it happened kind of naturally, but ask Nancy out.

Sam Penny (1:07:33)
I love it.

Erden Eruc (1:07:34)
I asked her to move to Seattle from Chicago.

She actually said yes. So yeah, that was the greatest thing.

Sam Penny (1:07:38)
Fantastic.

Now, if you could give your younger self one sentence of advice, what would it be?

Erden Eruc (1:07:45)
Never doubt your dreams.

make them, dreams don't come alive, become real unless one owns them. So we have to think of dreams as this seed that we put into fertile ground. As they take root and sprout, there will be those who are going to want to trample it and then stomp it down. So we have to protect it, put a little fence around it.

and then let it grow, get stronger so it can never be broken. Have a strong body and grow taller. that seedling is inside us, in all of us. So where is it? Does it need water? How do you feed it? How do you make it grow? How do you protect it? Because, it needs to be held close until it has that strength to stand tall on its own.

Sam Penny (1:08:40)
That's a great analogy to end with.

Erden and thank you so much for taking us on that journey for proving that you don't have to be fearless, you just need to be willing. What you've done, it's not a story about superhuman strength. It's about an ordinary person who made an extraordinary choice to keep moving forward stroke after stroke, no matter how big the ocean or how loud the storm. And here's the thing. The choice is open to all of us. You don't need a rowing boat.

a compass or five years to change your life. You just need to say yes to that thing that's been whispering in the back of your mind and take the first step. Now, Erden, how can people connect with you and follow your adventures?

Erden Eruc (1:09:22)
I have a website on the social you can find me as well. Erdeneeruc.com, first name, last name, .com. And on there are relevant information and there's going to be a tracking page as well. In the upcoming Golden Globe Race, there's goldengloberace.com, an actual website where they will have regular YouTube and other social media sharing there as well for the whole fleet, all 30 of us that will be racing.

And yeah, you can follow the whole activity there as well. So there's just going to be a lot of action coming up within 12 months onwards for about eight months at sea nonstop around the world. So yeah, follow along, please.

Sam Penny (1:10:03)
Fantastic, Erden Eruc thank you so much. And I'll put all of those links into the show notes. And if this conversation sparks something in you, even the tiniest little flicker, protect it, feed it and see where it leads. Because one day someone might look at you and ask, why do think you could do that? And you'll have an answer that changes everything. I'm Sam Penny, this is Why Do Think You Could Do That? And until next time, keep saying yes to the impossible.